07 - From Band to Brand - How James Sturdy Built a Food Empire

In this episode, Karen sits down with James Sturdy, the creative force behind Yorkshire Handmade Pies and Homemade Pizza Club. From touring as a musician to running one of the UK’s fastest-growing e-commerce food brands, James shares his unexpected journey into entrepreneurship, the challenges of scaling a handmade product, and why customer experience remains front and centre.

They chat about:

• What sparked the move from music to pies
• Building trust with customers online
• Supporting British farmers and local supply chains
• The power of live chat in growing an e-commerce brand
• Balancing tech, logistics and human connection

This is a story about passion, resilience, and never compromising on quality. If you run a product-based business or care about standout service, you’ll love this conversation.

For more information on what we do, please visit https://www.livechatfactory.live/

The Live Chat Factory Podcast is edited with finesse by Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real 🎙️

Transcript

Right, hello everybody. So today I'm joined by the brilliant James Sturdy, entrepreneur, foodie, champion of British farmers and the founder of Sturdy Foods. So let's find out a bit about the company behind the much-loved award-winning Yorkshire Handmade Pies and Homemade Pizza Club. 

Homemade Pizza Club, by the way, bring brilliant restaurant quality pizza straight to your door. Try it. James has built a thriving e-commerce food business with great products and, of course, great service. 

And he believes that even in a digital world, personal touch matters. So today, what we're going to chat about. So we're going to chat about food, service, growth, and maybe even a bit about his past life in music. 

So James, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Karen. Great to have you here. 

So let's start by, it's over to you, James. So are you, could you tell us a little bit about your journey? So it's from being in a band to pizza and then to British pies. So just give us a little bit of a journey, what your journey's been.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's, yeah, quite a setup there, Karen. So yeah, the started with kind of a little bit of a misspent youth playing in bands around Leeds and yeah, left school, went to music college. 

And then before I had a chance to finish the course, quite unexpectedly, the band got signed. So we ended up, yeah, kind of having a couple of years signed to a major record label, recording an album. Yeah, it was a lot of fun going on tour and yeah, I had a fantastic couple of years. 

So yeah, my two passions in life of food and music and that came to a little bit of an end and yeah, went on to Pastures New, set up a pizza delivery company in Leeds, which I ran for around about eight years. I ended up selling that to a larger competitor and I went into food manufacturing, which is what I've been in ever since 2013 and yeah, absolutely love it. And the e-commerce brands of businesses have kind of naturally grown on the back of the manufacturing that we do. 

So yeah, a good journey through life so far and one I'm keen to continue. Yeah, I love it, James, that you make a success of everything you go into, it seems. Because I mean, you're playing down your band, but you know, it was really successful at the time. 

Are you happy to give the name out so people can have a listen if they want to? Yeah, the band was called Stateless. So yeah, you can find it on Shopify and YouTube and all that sort of stuff. So yeah. 

I mean, definitely, you know, if any of the why not? It's great. I've listened to it. I think it's really good. 

So he's playing it down. So James, on to, you know, what I feel is important to you, that you're building a great brand. So initially, you did start as a B2B, didn't you? Yeah, we started as a purely business to business manufacturing operation. 

So after the pizza delivery company sale, I built up some knowledge in the pizza market and wanted to continue in the market. Yeah, I'm a massive, I'm very passionate about pizza and moving into manufacturing was sort of a logical step. So yeah, originally, we started manufacturing pizza dough balls and bases into the food service market, which we still do. 

So it's still a big part of our business. And then in the last five years or so, we've kind of diverted into e-commerce, partly as a response to COVID. But then that's been a business model that we've continued. 

So we've got this kind of parallel business models now based around business to business and business to consumer brands, which is, yeah, works very well for us. Yeah, I mean, that's quite a big thing at the time, wasn't it? Because I guess it was sink or swim really, when COVID hit. And when you're, you know, when your main customers are the B2B, and then you're moving to the B2C, it's a little bit different, isn't it? Well, I remember it clear as day is that you do sometimes these big events in life, don't you, where we were listening to Boris Johnson. 

And I was sat there with my wife, and I said, well, surely they can't shut down every hospitality business in the country. You know, that's not going to happen. And a few hours later, it did. 

So yeah, it's these cliff edges in business, I think, really forced you to have to evolve and develop. And sometimes the biggest challenges and the biggest disasters can actually turn out to be your biggest opportunities. You just have to look at, you know, where the wind's changing direction and how you go from the wind blowing in your face and knocking you backwards to turning that around and getting it back behind you. 

So yeah, I think, you know, entrepreneurs tend to be good at doing that. Yeah, well, you've done it really well, James. And it is a make or break situation. 

I think you came through it, thank goodness, you know, but you took a chance. And here we are today, talking about how successful everything is. But yeah, it's great. 

James, well, I'm only to ask you a question, because I know it's quite important to you is why supporting British farmers? I mean, to you personally, why do you feel, you know, that that's something you really want to do? Yeah, there's two parts to my answer on that question. So first thing is, I just think food is the most essential part of our lives. And increasingly, we all live very busy lives. 

And I think foods, you know, sometimes takes a bit of a backseat in terms of its role in society, which is to bring us together. And I think we've probably got a little bit complacent over the years about the food system, which has become so, so efficient at providing us with cheap food and very abundant food. And yeah, the vast majority of people are not really exposed to farming.

And I don't think kind of understand always how delicate the food system really is. And also how hard it is for farmers to make a good living. And I think, you know, the second part of the question is just how incredibly important it is that we understand their role in society, but that we're willing to pay a fair price for what they're doing, which hasn't always been the case. 

And the food industry has been very adept at keeping prices down at the farmer's expense. And I'm just a massive believer that if we don't support British farming, we may end up paying a lot more for our food in the future. And we're also a big risk of increasingly relying on imported food, which could undermine our national food security. 

So I think it's a bigger issue than a lot of people recognise and supporting British farmers is critical, I think, to the future. Yeah, that's that's great point, James. Totally agree. 

And I mean, you do bring to life the farm to fork ethos. And how do you think you do that? And you know, how does that work for you? How do you get that across to your customers? So I suppose the first question is what the farm to fork actually means. So for me, it means shortening the supply chain between food produced by farmers and the end consumer. 

So that's what our business model is about. And we're incredibly lucky to be based in a part of the world where the landscape's perfect for delivering top quality food. And there's also an amazing ecosystem of other food businesses here, you know, as a result of that. 

So part of our mission is to really showcase the incredible ingredients that we've got available in Yorkshire. And by partnering with local farmers and other food producers, we can offer our customers, you know, amazing quality produce, and a buying experience, which is a little bit different to what they'd get from the supermarket. And the idea being that it adds greater value to both the farmer and to the end consumer. 

Yeah, yeah. And you certainly are in a beautiful part of the world, Yorkshire. Even though I'm in Lancashire last, I have to concede that it is it is gorgeous where you are around. 

Well, yeah, that must have hurt for you to say that, Karen. So yeah, it really does. But you know, I'm the bigger person here, James. 

But no, it is beautiful. So as the shift change when you, you know, so did you see a change in supplying businesses to focus in on individual customers? Because obviously, you've got to get message across in a different way. And what sort of challenges have you faced doing that? So selling business to business and selling business to consumer, it is a completely different way of selling and a very different type of relationship.

So we're selling direct to other businesses, you establish relationships with, you know, with key individuals, and you really get to know them over time and, you know, hopefully develop a mutually value adding relationship. Whereas selling direct to consumers, you're dealing with a much larger group of customers who are all placing much smaller orders. So yeah, the business built very quickly after we launched Yorkshire Handmade Pies, which was the first e-commerce business we launched. 

And yeah, we really underestimated the volume of communication and queries there would be from customers. And obviously, when you're dealing with a lot more customers that, you know, that quickly scales up. So, you know, in our minds, how we'd sell the products and how we'd buy them, we were maybe a little bit unprepared for, you know, for how much there would be in terms of demand for and resource required, and how intensive that can be.

Yeah, I mean, it's a good problem to have, having the demand, isn't it? But yeah, it is something that it can take you by surprise. All of a sudden, you become successful and you think, oh my God, where are all these customers coming from? Which is great. But then you think, I've got to talk to them, got to handle, yeah. 

So, as that shift, so because of that, and I know that you're quite proactive, so you have done something about this, but I would really love to hear from your side. Did it change your thinking about the role of customer service in your business? Well, I'm really passionate about great customer service. And I think we live in a country where, yeah, service is often poor. 

Sometimes it's a bit of an afterthought and maybe not as resourced or as respected within companies and sometimes the public in the way that, you know, I think it should be. So, I'm a massive believer that success in business is, a lot of it is down to how you make the customer feel. And the product's got to meet their expectations. 

You know, that's a given, but building a great business means building, you know, a deeper emotional connection with the people that buy from you. And I think if your service is, you know, is poor or treated as an afterthought, then it can make your customers feel better. Yeah. 

If you, sorry, if you, you know, if you really invest in your customer service, I think it makes customers feel better than when they buy from the competition. And, you know, if they do that, then they're likely to come back to you and not them, hopefully. Yeah. 

And you certainly did that, James. And we as LiveChat Factory came on board with you a few years now. I can't believe it. 

I feel like I've always been with you. Definitely feels LA, doesn't it? Does. Yeah. 

Yeah. Now, what led you? So, I know that, you know, we started off adding LiveChat to your brands, you know, Yorkshire Homemade Pie and Homemade Pizza Club, but what led you to introduce phone support? Because that was a big thing for you to do. So phone support was something that we were asked about a lot by our customer base and quite a lot expressed frustration that we didn't have a phone number in the early days.

So, you know, really we didn't have the resources at the time to manage a phone line, which we knew would be quite intensive to do. But we also knew with the volume of orders we're doing, that it was going to require, you know, that to be done at some stage. And, you know, when the time was right, we put that into place. 

And I think it's, you know, it's about how it's about making customers feel like they can get in touch with a human being in whatever way they want to, whether it's LiveChat, phone or email. And I think it's a common frustration, certainly one of mine, that many companies now do whatever they can to try and put you off speaking to somebody. And I think that's certainly a common frustration all around. 

So although it is an expensive resource to offer, having all routes of communication easily accessible, to me, it's just about building trust with the customer and, you know, making it obvious that you want to engage with them and you want to build a relationship with them, however they want that to be done. I agree. I think it's really short-sighted if you try and make it hard for your customer to talk to you. 

It just seems to me it's a no-brainer. Talk to your customers because, you know, you learn so much and also they feel great. They feel so valued, you know, so they're going to come back.

Absolutely. I mean, yeah, I think you've hit on a really important point there, which is that it can be your best source of information in terms of what your customers are thinking and feeling. And to be able to develop over time and improve your product, you've got to see things through the eyes of the customer. 

And yeah, there's no better way of doing that than being able to hear what they've got to say through a phone call. I mean, I know when you first started the phone lines, James, it was for a certain demographic. But what I've realized now, I think we've been on the phones for two years, definitely two years, if not longer, is that people just love it of all ages. 

You know, they pick up the phone, they just ask a quick question and it's certainly used across all ages, I would say. You know, because some people do associate with, oh, you know, younger people won't use a phone. They certainly do. 

So I think it was a great move of yours. Yeah, I think, again, that's a good point. I mean, you've got to be very careful about not pigeonholing certain age demographics and thinking, well, we sell to this demographic, therefore, this is what they want from us. 

Well, you know, ultimately, it's about trying and testing things and letting the customer decide what's best, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And getting that feedback. But for me, the phone has been an absolute success for your business. 

I think it's been great. On that, James, I'd like to talk to you about excellent customer service. What do you feel is really great customer service? Or what does it mean to you, you know, as a brand? And is there an example that you can think of? Well, one of my colleagues, Taryn, who does our business development, she raves about a book called Unreasonable Hospitality, which is written by a chap called Will Guidera. 

And he was a phenomenally successful restaurant manager in New York. And he's got a principle that the aim should be to create experiences that exceed people's expectations. But also that you should concentrate on how you make them feel over anything else.

So I personally feel that customer service is often far too processed nowadays. And employees are just not trained to go above and beyond. And I think, you know, sometimes you pick up when it's being done according to a set script or a process.

And great customer service means it's about empowering people to delight the customer and just to have freedom about how they go about doing that. And, you know, there's so many examples of you and your team doing that for our customers. It's really hard to pick one out, Karen, particularly. 

But I think the principle of just having it as a core value to do whatever it takes to, you know, to delight the customer is, for me, what great customer, excellent customer spirit, sorry, excellent customer service is all about. Yeah, no, I agree. And I was thinking, even when you get complaints, it's funny, I was thinking about the Bully Beef episode. 

Do you remember when you had decided that, you know, you were going to create a pie, particularly for, you know, to remember the war, the historical. And, you know, just the emotion that went behind that and the feedback that we got, it was quite a surprise, really, wasn't it? Well, yeah, it's the whole thing. You always know when you've upset people because they're very quick to tell you, aren't they? And less quick when, you know, when they are happy. 

And that's another thing to be well aware of, is that sometimes you can get an over-weighting of negativity to customer service, which might not reflect the true picture. But yeah, you know, in examples like that, where we put out a campaign to support charity, we thought it was a very positive thing to do. And it came from a very genuine place and a couple of people, you know, interpreted it in a way we hadn't anticipated. 

But, you know, rather than get defensive about that, you guys dealt with that. You know, almost brought a tear to my eye seeing one of the responses that you gave to a, you know, an ex-serviceman who had taken it in a spirit it wasn't intended. And, you know, I thought that was remarkably well handled. 

And, you know, sometimes these, again, it's like anything, what is a negative situation? Well, where's the opportunity? And sometimes they do present the best opportunity to, you know, to build a greater, deeper relationship with the customers when they're not happy. I think those sort of conversations are great because that's where you get the real insight, isn't it? That's where you get insights from, because, you know, that emotion, you know, if you get that emotion, I think it's great because they're really sharing with you. They really care.

So if they really care, then I think you're on the, means we're on the right track. I've got a bit of a theory about this, that a restaurant that doesn't get complaints is doing something wrong. So British people do not like complaining. 

It's different in other parts of the world. And generally, if, you know, if I'm not particularly happy, but I don't think, I don't get a sense that the restaurant is going to listen, I won't complain. But if it's something, you know, if it's a place that I can tell is trying to get things right, but they've possibly got something wrong or a place that you're familiar with and generally gets things right, but on an occasion has got it's wrong, you know, I will give constructive feedback. 

So yeah, feedback, they say feedback is a gift. And I don't think you should be at all scared of receiving negative feedback. You should embrace it and, you know, take it as an opportunity.

Absolutely. I think I agree with you. It's a gift. 

I think feedback is the best thing you can get, good or bad. That's the only way you can learn. That's the only way you can grow.

In everything for me, I think that's my ethos. And yeah, I'm with you on that, James. So you offer multi-channels to customers, which we support you with, great. 

And what do you think is a good balance for digital and human service? So we're talking about a little bit of the AI tools that perhaps can be used, but, you know, how do you feel about that? So the balance for digital versus human service? Well, we're in something of an AI gold rush at the moment, aren't we? You know, it's very hard to do anything and to go a day without hearing the phrase AI. And yeah, some people think that's a bit overblown. Other people think it's the next version of the industrial revolution. 

So yeah, I think one of my favourite sayings is don't treat people how you want to be treated. It's about treating them how they need to be treated. And yeah, having different ways for customers to be able to place orders is a really good example of that. 

Some customers are really digitally savvy, happy to place orders online. The demographic of our pie business, for example, I think they do often still want more of a human interaction when they order. So we take orders online via the website. 

You can order by phone, which is obviously more expensive to do and less efficient for us as a business. But I just don't think life's all about efficiency. You know, one of my favourite ideas is you can make things more efficient, but you can also make them worse. 

And I think a business should be prepared to see the bigger picture and, you know, not forget that that human touch is, you know, is still important for many people and probably always will be. I love that, James. And that does attest to the fact that a lot of customers who call up when I hear, you know, the recordings and things, how appreciative they are that they've had a phone line, you know, they've got, oh, I can't be doing with online or, you know, things like that.

And I think that's lovely that we're welcoming those people and being kind to them and supportive and, you know, giving them a platform where they can order. And, you know, we get people coming back time and time again and they go, it's me again. And so it's lovely. 

It does build a community. And I think that is, from what I see, that's very much part of your brand that, you know, you're bringing everybody together. You're not excluding anybody. 

And I think that's really lovely. Yeah. Thanks, Carl. 

But yeah, you know, it's only as good as the execution of it, which you guys do extremely well for us. Thanks, James. I mean, what I will say though, I will say we do very much support digital tools. 

So, but what we like to work with is keeping the efficiency while maintaining a personal touch. And I would think as your business grows, do you see that mix evolving for you, for you guys? Do you see that as something that would be with so, you know, like harnessing whatever we can for digital tools, for the digital tools that we need, but making sure that we always keep that personal touch? So yeah, I think when, when technology is just used as a way of seeing cost reduction potential, there's a danger that that can come with unintended consequences. But yeah, of course, if customers, if the value, if the core value is customer service and delighting the customer, then, you know, I think it's about defining that and saying we will look at using technology to become more efficient, but that's got to be in a way that serves the customer better and have a longer term view that by doing that, yeah, you're going to build a better business. 

Whereas I think the mistake that can be made is sometimes people are very quick to, yeah, to see the potential to, you know, either reduce head count in business or just reduce cost and not always fully understand what the implications of that might be in other ways. So I think it's just about taking a balanced approach, not getting too excited about, you know, about anything and yeah, making sure that you do things in a cautious manner that develops over time, that's done in the right way for the businesses, profitability and the customer base. Yeah, that's great James and yeah, it's staying true to your brand and that's something you do, you're very much, this is the brand, this is what my values are, this is my beliefs and I think that's great to carry that through no matter what is happening in the world, yeah, in the business world. 

But you know, we're always, I like it that you involve everybody, so you've got ideas, you're well informed, so that's quite important, so you know what's going on and I think a lot of businesses sometimes they separate a little bit at the top, the people at the top separate a little bit from what's happening, you know, with their customers and how their customers are being dealt with and I think it's a mistake to be honest. Definitely, yeah, is it Jeff Bezos saying or someone like that, it's yeah, whoever gets closest to the customer wins and I think you've just got to keep that at heart all the time. So James, for you, you've just touched on that, that you keep very close to where your customers, in this instance, I just thought it would be good to sort of say, to ask you, what's the value of capturing customer insights through conversation? So does it shape your strategy thinking? So I know you get lots of fantastic feedback, do you feel the insights from feedback, do you feel it's important for you and how do you use it going forward? Yeah, really good question, so the short answer is it's extremely important to know what customers are thinking and feeling but it's also really important to view it in context and I would say one of the single biggest factors in the success of both our e-commerce businesses today is the monthly insights meeting that we have with you, Karen, you know, where you share feedback with us about what customers are saying, what questions are going through their minds and what concerns they have before ordering and it goes back to that principle of whoever gets closest to the customer wins and you've just got to be really aware of how you've been perceived as a business which is actually really surprisingly hard to do and there are so many examples where something's been obvious to us as a business because we know the business and it's turned out to be far less obvious to the customer. 

So, you know, there are huge hidden costs with not understanding exactly what customers are thinking and feeling when they're buying and what's going through their minds, what might be stopping them from, you know, from going ahead and purchasing and yeah, it's also really important to seek out the negative feedback as we touched on before, so that's often the best source of learning. Yeah, great, yeah, good to know it's working. So, actually on that, we had a little bit of feedback that I love. 

So, we had a couple of customers recently and they set up subscriptions to their parents with the pies and I thought that was lovely and I mean I did tell you about this but do you see that happening more with food gifting? Do you think that's a good route to take? It does seem to be quite popular at the moment. Again, it's not something which perhaps you could have foreseen and that insight came from, you know, you and your team getting this feedback from customers that they like the ability to be able to, you know, to gift pies to other people which, yeah, again prompts us to discuss that around the table and say, well, how could we develop that idea? What could we do to make it easier to gift or more, you know, more appealing for people? So, yeah, you know, it's just about finding out what the customer wants and these little germs of ideas that can then develop over time and, yeah, can end up being a significant part of your business. Yeah, that's great, James. 

I think that's, yeah, I think it, personally, I think it's a good one. People love it, don't they? If they can't, I don't know what to buy for that person. Oh, they love a pie. 

This is fantastic. Yeah, let me do that. So, I could see it being really successful actually. 

Yeah, so it goes back to what we said earlier about food is a way of bonding us together as human beings and, you know, there's nothing better than them providing food for others whether it's cooking or, yeah, gifting somebody some food that, you know, they're going to really enjoy. So, yeah, I definitely see it as a good growth area for food brands. Brilliant. 

So, what has partnering with Live Chat Factory brought for you, James? What did you feel you've got out of it? It's not an exaggeration to say that partnering with you has been a significant part of helping us to grow, Karen. So, it was a real, well, naturally, a massive concern for me because the business over to hand something over is important to as customer service and to outsource it. And, you know, I was very cautious about doing so and had to balance up, you know, various sort of competing factors in my head before we decided to go ahead.

But what really impressed me about the way that you guys work is that, yeah, I think you really do, you know, you and your team are part of our business. And you took a lot of time to understand our values, build trust with me as the business owner that you understood our goals and the business before we went live. And it's just developed over time and become, in my view, a very successful partnership. 

So, to build a significant e-commerce business means your customer service has got to match your growth. And so far, that's absolutely been the case. You've got a real passion for great service, which I share with you. 

And you've helped us to concentrate on growing the brand without, you know, fear of that service element falling down at any point. Oh, that's really nice for you to say, James. And we appreciate the fact that you've trusted us so much and, you know, really listened to us. 

And I think together it's really worked. I think it's been a great partnership. And long may it rain. 

Long may it rain indeed, Karen. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so, we did touch on AI and human-led. 

Did you know 70% of customers still prefer speaking to a real person? I'm sure you did, because it's probably no surprise, especially if they've got a problem or concern, because people just want that speedy, don't you? So, I was going to say to you, do you think AI can play a role behind the scenes for you in your manufacturing, maybe, in what you're doing, James, your customer service, all operations, really? But do you still feel that personal connection has got to be the top of your mind? I think for me, AI is such an unknown at present. Yeah, it's a very new technology. And I'm not someone who truly believes it's ever going to replace the human touch completely. 

And I think at heart, most people do value human interaction and will continue doing so. So, it could be in years to come that having human-based customer service actually becomes a unique selling point, perhaps. I can't predict the future like nobody else can, but then, you know, hopefully, it's likely to be based around AI, helping make human customer service more efficient. 

Sadly, I think a lot of companies are going to see it as an opportunity to reduce costs and invest less in customer service, which, you know, I think could be potentially a mistake. Yeah, thanks, James. So, what do you think are the biggest challenges for scaling e-commerce brands today? So, I'm just thinking, you know, along the lines of, do you think convenience is king? Or is there still a demand for that artisan, that handmade feel, which I know is, you know, what I would say your pies have got that feel, definitely.

How hard is it to sort of scale with that kind of business? Or is it that there is a time for it and the time is now? I think it's really important to know what clearly what you're selling and why people should buy it from you directly as opposed to buying it from someone else or from the supermarket. And, you know, supermarkets do dominate, and you're never going to compete with them on price. So, you've got to create something that people are willing to go out of their way and buy, and in a lot of cases, actually pay more for. 

But if the proposition is right, you're selling something that people say is exclusive or different from what they can buy in the supermarket, then, you know, I think they're increasingly willing to try that. And, you know, one of your biggest opportunities is being clear about your brand's values, your unique selling points and building a relationship with customers in a way that you just can't do through those kind of channels. So, yeah, I think it's a question of making the most of that opportunity. 

But, yeah, being quite hard on yourself as a brand and say, why would people buy from, you know, from us and go out of the way to do so? And, you know, what are we offering that is compelling enough for them to do that? And I guess that's, you know, to maintain that consistency, that really good, you know, you can keep your values, you can still deliver that great product, great service, is that you've got your local supply chain and your relationships. It's all part of it, isn't it? The whole ecosystem. So, that goes back to the beginning when you talk about, knowing the farmers, you know, farm to fork, all of that comes into play to create this brand.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, Karen. It's, yeah, communicating with the customer what you're offering them that they might not be getting elsewhere. And, you know, things like using local suppliers. 

You've got to have an amazing product. You've got to have something which really does wow the customer time and time again, and it's got to deliver every single time. Yeah, exactly. 

And, yeah, the customer service is basically a, you know, a series of different things that work together to, you know, to, yeah, to build a successful business. And if any one of them doesn't stack up, then your customers are gonna, you know, are not gonna use you. Or if they do use you, they might only use you once or twice, and that won't build a sustainable business.

So, yeah, somehow you've got to have a proposition which permeates people's consciousness a bit and builds a rapport in a relationship and, you know, hopefully gets a good number of customers buying from you repeatedly over a longer period of time. Oh, thanks for that, Jens. But finally, so we're at the end, believe it or not. 

It's been great chatting to you, by the way. But if you could serve, I'm gonna ask you this last question, because I'm quite interested in this. If you could serve your pies at any big event or venue, where would it be and why? That's a good question. 

I think, is it Glastonbury this weekend? I think it is, isn't it? That's what I'd say, yeah. I thought, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not really on there since 1998, but, yeah, it would be great to set up down there and serve pies. 

I know when I was down there soaking wet, covered in mud in 1998, I would have definitely wanted a nice hot pie. Shall we do it next year? We could do pizzas on one side and pies on the other. Well, it's all gentrified now, isn't it? I don't think it's the experience it used to be. 

So, yeah, if it's a little bit more luxurious, I'm in. Yeah, yeah, no, they'd love it. I tell you, I would have loved, when I was at Glastonbury a couple of years ago, I would have loved a pie. 

I was paying like a fiver for a half a slice of melon. A pie would have been great, yeah. Yeah, let's do it.

Let's do it. Let's plan it. James, it's been great, and I've really appreciated you taking the time to chat to me on this podcast. 

I'm sure our listeners will get loads out of that. I mean, it's really good insights into how an entrepreneur like yourself, you've gone, as I say, from band to pizza to pies, and you've made a success of everything. There's a lot to learn there.

I would say you're very considered, but you're not afraid to take a risk, and I love that. I think that's great. That's the true entrepreneurial spirit, and I just know you'll go from success to success. 

So, thank you so much. No, it's been a real pleasure, Cameron. I've really enjoyed it, and yeah, thanks for your support along the way as well.

Absolutely. Take care, James. Cheers. 

Bye-bye.