Man: Quest to Find Meaning
Man: A Quest to Find Meaning is the podcast for men who feel stuck, disconnected, or uncertain about their place in the world — and are ready to reconnect with purpose, emotional strength, and a more authentic way of being.
Hosted by [Your Name], each episode explores the deeper questions of modern masculinity through honest, unfiltered conversations. You’ll hear from men who’ve overcome inner battles — and from women offering powerful perspectives that challenge, inspire, and expand how we think about growth, relationships, and healing.
From purpose and vulnerability to fatherhood, fear, and identity — this is a space for men who want more than just surface-level success. It’s for those on a journey to live with intention, courage, and truth.
New episodes weekly. Real talk. No ego. Just the quest.
Man: Quest to Find Meaning
Following Your Heart: A Journey from Restriction to Resilience with Graham Frost
Graham Frost is the only person who escaped from a controlling religion, was in prison and recovered from testicular cancer, all before he was 25.
Nowadays he uses his story of making Heart-Shaped Decisions to motivate and inspire young people in schools, colleges, universities and prisons in England, with his colleagues David Hyner and Mark Wingfield.
Heart-Shaped Decisions CIC is looking for more corporate partners to sponsor our work, helping people to make better choices with their lives.
You can contact Graham on 07766 916317 or by email graham@grahamfrost.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/grahamfrostspeaker
https://www.heartshapeddecisions.com
What does it mean to truly follow your heart? Discover the inspiring journey of Graham Frost, who faced the challenges of a restrictive upbringing and a life-changing battle with cancer, yet emerged resilient and determined to help others do the same. In this episode, we explore Graham's courageous decision to leave his strict religious community at 17 and navigate life on his own terms. He shares his transformative experiences, including his time in Borstal and overcoming chest cancer at just 22, demonstrating the power of heart-centred decisions and vulnerability. Graham's story is a testament to the impact of personal growth and the importance of making choices that prioritize happiness and well-being.
In today's episode with Graham Frost, we talk about heart-centered decisions and making decisions from a place of calmness and not anger. We talk about the value of routine and the importance of expressing emotions. Welcome to man Quest Defying Meaning, where we help men navigate modern life, find their true purpose and redefine manhood. I'm your host, james, and each week, inspiring guests share their journeys of overcoming fear, embracing vulnerability and finding success. From experts to everyday heroes, get practical advice and powerful insights, struggling with career relationships or personal growth. We've got you covered. Join us on man Questify Meaning. Now let's dive in. Welcome everybody to man Questify Meaning. I'm your host, james, and today I have a special guest, graham Frost. How are you, graham?
Speaker 2:I'm very well. Thank you, james. It's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me An absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1:Can we start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and your story?
Speaker 2:Yes, of course. So I was born into a very strict church back in the mid-1950s and we didn't have radio, television, recorded music, lots of the things that young people take for granted. They weren't allowed to do Lots of the things that most young people do as a matter of course, weren't allowed to join the Boy Scouts or anything like that. Everything revolved around going to church meetings and obviously went to school and I got to the age of about 11 and began to wonder if this was really the life for me. That coincided with going to secondary school. I have a friend who I wasn't really supposed to have because I wasn't supposed to have friends outside of the church, and we actually got out to a bit of mischief and we got arrested for shoplifting in Woolworths at the age of 11 and that was a big thing because my aunt who I used to go and visit my aunt's house a lot because I had five male cousins and they were like my friends and she said I don't think you better come around anymore because you're a bad influence. So that was quite a shock and then it drove me into myself a bit and then my family moved to London.
Speaker 2:I was born and brought up. Early upbringing was in Essex and then we moved to London, so that changed my perspective on life completely. At the age of 13, I moved to London with my family and, better than the age of 17, having left school and started work, I decided that this life wasn't for me. The only reason, the only way that I could do anything to change it was to leave. So I left my whole family and support network, such as it was behind at the age of 17, went out into the big wide world on my own.
Speaker 2:I didn't actually see my mother for 27 years after that day in 1973. Unfortunately, I slipped into bad behaviour after that. I rebelled quite a lot and I got mixed up with bad influences and found myself in a young offenders' institution called a barstool At the time. At the time I was 19,. I spent a year in a barstool and, unfortunately to me, I found it quite a positive experience. A lot of people will tell you the board stalls were horrible places, but I didn't really experience that I actually had. There was staff in the board stall that I was at who were very supportive and actually challenged me and said look, what are you doing with your life? And it helped me to put myself, pick myself up and put myself back on track or find the right track.
Speaker 2:And I think heart-shaped decisions, which is what I speak about comes from all the major things that happened in my life as a result of heart-shaped decisions, which is leaving home and then getting back on track again at the age of sort of 19, 20. And then everything was going really well for me at the age of 22. And I got diagnosed with the chest cancer at the age of 22, which was a bit of a shock, you might say, and thanks to the chest, and also quite a lot of positive thinking and not giving up, I'm still here today, many years later, to tell that tale. So that's the sort of story of my early life up to about the age of 25. I could talk for an hour about the rest of it, but that's what I focus on with my community interest company that I run is about helping young people, particularly young people in schools, colleges, universities and prisons, to make better choices and make better decisions in their lives and use their hearts to make decisions.
Speaker 1:So, going back to when you first made the decision to leave, back to when you first made decision to leave, what was it about the heart-shaped decision that?
Speaker 2:really made you really step into that decision? I don't. I really felt like I got to the point where I didn't have any choice. I was by that sign. I was half in and half out of the church. I was working in a company that where there were no other members of the church, so I used to go to the pub with them after work and things like that, which I wasn't supposed to do. I was gradually finding myself thrown into a big, wide world that I wanted to be in.
Speaker 2:And then what actually happened was I was offered a job, a bar, a pub in London which had accommodation with it, and they said, yeah, you can come and live here, work here. So I thought here's my opportunity. So that was like I've got to take this opportunity to change my life, which went home. And so I went home and told my mum Actually I was wondering if my mum got to borrow a suitcase. She said well, do you want a suitcase for us? I said, no, I'm leaving home, of course. She said.
Speaker 2:I rang my dad at work and he came rushing home from work and tried to talk me out of it. They wouldn't give me a suitcase. So I went to the shop on the corner of the road and I said to the guy can you lend me some carrier bags? I don't know why I asked him that because I wasn't going to bring him back. So I actually left home with all my belongings and six plastic carrier bags at the age of 17. And so, yeah, it was just OK, I've got this opportunity, I've got to take it. It was just purely based on feelings. If I'd thought about it, if I'd thought about the implications of what I was doing, I might not have done it about it. If I'd thought about the implications of what I was doing, I might not have done it.
Speaker 1:But I've got this opportunity. I've got to take it and see where it goes. So, for people out there who are perhaps lost and are stuck, how can they go about using heart-shaped decisions to direct their life?
Speaker 2:It's really about how you feel, I think. How do you feel about particular friendships that you might be involved in? How do you feel about relationships that you're in? How does your job make you feel? How does your work make you feel?
Speaker 2:But I'm not saying that life is all about positive stuff. I've got to a point in personal relationships that I was married in the 1990s and I had to make the hard, safe decision to get away from that situation, because it was probably by the time I left, it was 90% negative or only 10% positive. So weighing up that kind of thing and how this situation really makes you feel it's not necessarily about thinking. Weighing up that kind of thing and how this situation really makes you feel. It's not necessarily about thinking and yes, it could be about how is it going to make somebody else feel if I do this? But the heart-safed decision isn't necessarily always selfish. You have to think about other people as well. But I have to say that my original heart-shaped decision to leave home was completely selfish because I didn't think about the impact on my parents or my siblings or anybody else. I just thought this is my opportunity. I've got to take it.
Speaker 1:I've got to go yeah, I almost in that situation. I would I don't know, because it's one of them decisions that if you stay you're going to do yourself more damage, yes, and if you don't? And if you go, yes, you are better off, but you're also going to create the impact on your family. But, as you said, it's self-de. Sometimes we need to take them selfish decisions to really step into who we're meant to become.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely I would not be the person I am today. I'm reasonably okay, I'm reasonably content with who I am today. I would not be where I am today, but I have taken that heart-shaped decision at the age of 17, and several others since. That was probably the biggest one be where I am today. But I had taken that heart-shaped decision at the age of 17, and several others since, but that was probably the biggest one. The most light-changing one was to set out on a new path, a completely new path.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking this morning actually over my journey. There's things that have come into my life that are no longer in alignment with who I am, and then there's also new things which are more alignment. So how can I start to reduce the things that aren't in alignment and to start to incorporate more of the things that I enjoy, the more things that give me that passion, that kind of heart-centered choice?
Speaker 2:I think you just have to say what is actually making me feel good and what isn't, and that does change as you go through life. For example, I used to smoke. I used to drink quite a lot of alcohol at different times in my life. I took a decision this year I'd be fairly advanced age. I'm in my 60s now. I took a decision I I'd be fairly advanced age. I'm in my 60s now. I took a decision. I had a scare, health scare. I was in hospital for 10 days earlier on this year and I just thought to myself lying in a hospital bed surrounded by people who were actually younger than I was, and I thought this is actually happening.
Speaker 2:I'm going to start looking at my health choices and drink less. So I drink. I've cut right back on alcohol. It's almost nothing. A healthier diet and much more exercise, and I feel a lot. I feel as good as I've felt in the last 10 years because it's easier to pick up a pack of crisps or a sausage roll for lunch. I might do that once a week now, rather than three or four times a week. I actually had fresh food and eaten a lot more vegetables, salad, that kind of thing Healthier choices you do actually get the benefits of it because you feel better. I get up every morning and go out for a walk. For the last few weeks I've been doing 10,000 steps a day and the benefits of it are fantastic yeah, it's one of them things with with your body.
Speaker 2:Your body's a thing that carries you around and it's a thing that can help you to live longer in a healthier way, so you've got to treat it right yes, and sometimes I fall into the trap of not treating my body, and I'm not saying I'll never fall into that trap again, but at the moment I'm teaching my body well and I feel great.
Speaker 1:I feel physically and mentally because that has an impact on your mental health as well yeah, for those people who perhaps find it hard to really connect to their emotions, how can they start to really connect and start to feel happiness, joy, sadness, grief? I?
Speaker 2:feel happiness. I know how to make myself feel happy, so it could be listening to a particular piece of music, or you know, music is very important in my life. I have to have music in my life, like every day. If I'm in the car, I'm driving, I've always got music on, spending time with people who make me feel happy, rather than people who don't make me feel happy, and doing things that you love doing. So I've got three things that I love doing. One of them is walking outdoors, and I do that every day. One I'm listening to music Particularly. I like jazz and soul and that kind of music, and I have for many years, so I have music playing in the house most of the time.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I like is watching cricket. I love to go and watch cricket live or watch it on TV, but I prefer to watch it live. So I reward myself. For, for example, I've just been working very hard on some stuff for my community interest company recently. I don't like all the marketing and sales stuff, I'd rather. I know you like doing that. Not many people do, but because I've actually done it, I've begun to see some results coming through, and so I grew up okay, so I'm going to have Friday off and I'm going to go and watch cricket the other day. You know that's my reward. So it's all about how can I make myself feel better than I do right now? What do I need to do? You need to have in my opinion, you need to have two or three things in your life that you know are going to make you feel good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes complete sense I can imagine, throughout your life you've had times when you've had struggles, yes, or perhaps hit a barrier or a challenge. How do you personally overcome these situations?
Speaker 2:Probably the biggest. One example is when I was in a bad marriage in the 1990s and I was very fortunate because in my life it just seems to happen. The way things seem to happen for me is that if I'm in a bad place, an opportunity always seems to come along to tell me to get out of it. And what happened when I was married was that I got off the opportunity to do actually counselling. Now, I'd never spoken about my life growing up at all, up until I was in my late 30s. I told my partners about it in great detail and I was able to actually sit down with somebody and talk right through my life. And so, yeah, talking therapy has not worked for me in that situation. But if I had struggles now, I'm not saying this is going to work, I'm not saying I've never suffered from serious debilitating depression.
Speaker 2:I know some people have had serious trauma in their lives that they can't get over, for whatever reason that is. I would say to those kind of people you have to talk to somebody, because people say, oh, is your mental health bad? Just go out for a walk. Well, that doesn't work for everybody. Works for me, but it doesn't work for everybody, I'm going to tell you what works for me and that what works for me. Like I'm feeling a bit crap, I'm going to go. I'm lucky. I live in quite a green area. I can look out of my window and see trees, which is fantastic because green's my favourite colour. So I live in an area with loads of trees on the outskirts of Birmingham and I know that if I go for a walk around the block for 20 minutes, I'm going to feel a lot better. Think things over and try and think about something positive.
Speaker 1:What is your idea of a healthy man? Oh, good gracious.
Speaker 2:A healthy man. I think it starts with what you put into yourself making sure you're looking after yourself and not eating a lot of junk food. And it is actually quite easy to cook proper food. You know, I live on my own so I cook every day. I don't rely on taking and it's just you know a slow cooker. They're really easy to use. Now the days are getting shorter and the winter's coming and my slow cooker will be in use a lot. I'll make soups and fresh vegetables and salads and I don't eat a lot of red meat.
Speaker 2:I don't drink very much alcohol. I used to drink far too much alcohol, but it didn't. Actually that is not a healthy way of living. Spend time outdoors doing whatever you enjoy doing. Don't spend too much time looking at screens. I probably need to spend a bit less time looking at screens. It's just drink water. Drink screens that are good for you.
Speaker 2:Put good stuff into you, including what goes into your mind. Read books rather than watching TV all the time. Try not to watch too much news, because the news is actually designed to depress us. I know there are terrible things going on in the world, but you do have to focus on yourself and your own well-being, I think. And yeah, and spend time. I think I haven't spoken much about other people, and I think nobody's an island. You need other people in your life who bring something positive with them. I try to spend time with people I know. You will know David Heiner, for example, and David's a good friend of mine. He's also a director of my business, so I talk to him a lot because he's always able to make me feel better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's your definition of a heart-shaped decision, and do you teach a set routine, a set way in which to allow yourself to go through a heart?
Speaker 2:shape decision. I think it's really all based on how you feel about a situation. All I can do is give you an example, many examples. So I feel like a positive heart shape decision. My my partner who, like who I'm with now we don't live together. I met her about seven and a half years ago and after about two and a half years commuting between Peterborough, where I used to live, and Birmingham. She lived in Birmingham and I got to the point where I thought this is an opportunity for a heart-shaped decision. I want to be closer to her. She wants to be closer to me, so I can't expect her to move to me because all her family's in the West Midlands. So what have I got to keep me in Peterborough? I've got friends here, but I haven't got a family. I can still go and see my friends. Got friends here, but I haven't got a family. I could still go and see my friends. So the obvious thing for me to do is to sell my house and buy a house in the West Midlands and go and live closer to her, which is what I did. That was the process I went through. Some people were a bit upset that I was leaving, but my partner was happy that I was going to be closer to her. I hope she still is but things like I had to leave a job.
Speaker 2:My last court role I left I think it was 2011, and I was in a job where I enjoyed the work. Some of the work I enjoyed probably 50 or 60% of the work, but that was decreasing. So I thought this is not making me feel good. I'm not waking up in the morning and wanting to go to work because a lot of the work I was being given to do wasn't work that I found fulfilling. I'm not somebody who likes to sit in an office too much. I like to be out and do things.
Speaker 2:I've been doing training for many years and I wanted to be out traveling around the country delivering training, but more and more being stuck in an office. And then I had a boss who didn't like me because I spoke up and said it when I wasn't happy about things, and so it just got to the point where I thought you know what? This is not making me feel good. I need to do something different. I need to change direction. So I actually left that job and went self-employed, and I've been self-employed ever since then Because I was lucky. I don't have a family to support us. I don't have children. If anyone's listening to this and you're in a job or a relationship where you're not happy, your unhappiness is going to affect the other people in that workplace or in that relationship or wherever it is.
Speaker 1:So if that was the case, how would they go about making that decision? I know it's quite hard sometimes balancing it up when you want to leave something you know it's not good for you, but I think underneath there's a fear. Yes, there is.
Speaker 2:One way you can do it and I have done this in some situations I've been in my life is literally just get a piece of paper, draw a line down the middle and make a list of the positives about the situation you're in and the negatives. The positives outweigh the negatives and you'll probably be okay where you are. If the negatives outweigh the positives, then how can I get myself out of this situation? How is this making me feel? How can I move on from this situation? What impact is it going to have on other people and sometimes you're going to have to upset somebody else have on other people, and sometimes you're going to have to upset somebody else. I often say to people you know, the easiest decision to make is to sell somebody if you love them. The most difficult, hard, safe decision to make is to tell somebody you no longer do love them.
Speaker 1:I know how hard it is to tell somebody something they don't want to hear. How can people really step into their own power and be able to tell them what did you expect would happen and how did you get through that kind of stuff? What happened to?
Speaker 2:me going back to probably one of the worst times in my life, which was the breakup of my marriage, and I got to the point where I didn't do. I didn't feel comfortable going home. My ex-wife was completely ignoring me. I went through the door. I was working long shifts on the railway. In those days I would leave home really early in the morning and get back mid-evening and, to be honest, I would get to the point where I was going to work. I was going to work overtime. I was taking overtime shifts to get away from the situation. I thought this can't continue. Even people at work who were friends or I'd known for years were saying to me you can't carry on like this. Sometimes you have to share. I'm very bad at sharing with other people. I always try and work things out for myself.
Speaker 2:In that situation, I was seeing a counsellor at the time as well, which helped massively, and I had found somewhere else to live. And I went home one night and I sat down and I said to my wife she was watching TV and ignoring me as usual. I said look, I really just need you to switch that off or just put the volume down. I need us to have a conversation. That was when I told her. I said I'm really sorry, but I can't do this anymore. It's having a negative impact on me. You're obviously not happy. I think I need to move out. And yeah, it was just. I didn't want to do it in anger, I just wanted to do it as calm, to put it across as calmly as possible. Making decisions in anger, you have to weigh up how it's going to make her feel, how it's going to make me.
Speaker 2:Even though we lost what we had at the beginning of the relationship, I still cared about her to a certain extent. I didn't want it, but I made sure that she was okay as much as I possibly could before I left. I didn't just walk out in a huff in anger and never go back or anything like that. With most of the heart-saving decisions I've made, I have considered the impact of my decision on other people. I didn't do it with my family because I couldn't. But then there is a happy ending to that because eventually I was partially reconciled with my family. It did all come back around in the end Before my parents passed away. My dad only passed away in this year. He was 93. But before they passed away. I had reconciled with them. They were still in the church and I still wasn't, but we had spent time together and built a relationship later in their lives.
Speaker 1:There's one key point. You mentioned that you never made a heart-based decision when you were angry. And I think when you are angry, I don't even feel you are in your heart. No, I almost feel it's like you said, you have to calm down in order to make that decision. And yeah, it's, it's almost like heart. It's heart-based decisions come when you are feeling calm, peaceful and, I wouldn't say, relaxed. For ease.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, yeah, you're right. Actually, then it's often as a yeah, it's often over, often happens over a long period. My decision to leave home, for example, when I was a teenager, that didn't happen overnight, that wasn't a decision. I just woke up one morning and went. It wasn't over a year, that was from the age of probably 10 or 11. That took five or six years, because obviously you can't, not many people would run away from home at the age of 10 or 11. Never even considered that that would be really crazy. And I thought I was a little bit crazy even when I left at 17, because not many people leave home at 17, even when they get on with their career. It was like I just that one was just like the opportunity's here, I've got to do this and, yeah, everything went through pear for the first couple of years, but I did manage.
Speaker 2:I remember the incident when I was in borstal and the prison officer and mr taylor his name was, and he said to me he said bruster. He said you're not a criminal. He said what are you doing here? He said we get lads that come in here. He said we know that there's not a lot we can do for them. He said there might come some bad backgrounds and that kind of thing. He said you're not like that. He said what are you doing here? He said I want you to go back to your dorm. We used to have dormitories there rest of your life and I did that and I thought he's right. I didn't escape from one bad place to end up in another one, which is what I'd done if we go to the ball stall.
Speaker 1:What did they specifically say and do to really to get you back on the right track?
Speaker 2:that was that conversation was, but it was, I think to me, really changed. It was about having a routine. It was, I think, to me it really changed. It was about having a routine and I'm very much to this day, actually a routine person. I probably drive people mad.
Speaker 2:I get up at the same time in the morning, I do the same things in the same order, and when I was in Borstal I was woken up at 5.30 in the morning because I worked in the kitchen. So I had to get up up, go straight down to the kitchen, then get the breakfast. I think there was about 200 lads in there there's about 10 of us working in the kitchen and what have you. And we have to get all. We have a routine and when we'd finished breakfast we would go back to the dorm everybody else but that's on gone off to do whatever their activity was for the day. We could have a shower and then a bit of a break, and then we'd go back after an hour and prepare for lunch, and then the same thing Every day was very similar.
Speaker 2:But you had a routine, you knew what you were doing, and I think we got one day off a week or something like that where we could. But then I was like what am I going to do? What am I going to do here? Do here apart from work. You can read we had we had a television room but you weren't allowed to go in there in the daytime, isn't quite regimented. But yeah, I need a routine in my life. Even when I retire, I will still have some kind of routine in my life. I think to me that's important. It might not be important to everybody, but to me it's important. It might not be important to everybody, but to me it's important to have a routine and to have regular things that you do that keep you occupied and keep you positive.
Speaker 1:Can you suggest some strategies that people can start to utilize to become more heart-centered?
Speaker 2:Yes, just focus on especially men, make them not very good at expressing feelings, and you have, if you're. I am actually quite. I like to think I'm quite good expressing my feelings. Yeah, my partner has told me that I am. That's. That's always a good sign when a woman tells you she said you're actually quite good at expressing your feelings, aren't you? I said, yeah, I am, and I like to think so. I think the men with we're they're supposed to be in this sort of masculinity thing, isn't it where men are supposed to be strong and resilient and all that kind of thing? That's all really well and good. Being resilient, it's good. But yeah, you're only, you're only so resilient, yeah, I think. Yeah, we have to learn, as men, particular, to talk to our friends about things. I've got a couple of friends male friends that I know I can talk to about things. They won't judge me. I've got a brother, actually, who I talk to quite a lot. He talks to me and for me it's about expressing things and not bottling things up.
Speaker 1:It makes sense For those who don't know what you do. Can you explain what you do and how you get in contact?
Speaker 2:Heart Safe Decisions is a community interest company and we work in schools, colleges, universities and prisons to help people young people and sometimes older people in prison to make better decisions, because most people have ended up in prison like I did because they made bad decisions. And young people these days there's almost a degree of hopelessness about some young people these days. I want to give young people hope. There's actually three of us involved in the business Myself, david Hiner and Mark Wingfield. I think you probably know both of them as well and I know David's been on the podcast before that. Mark has, yeah, very happy. And yeah, we're also what we're doing at the moment. Actually, we're looking for corporate sponsorship to run our programs in schools, colleges and universities around the West Midlands and England. We're in quite an advanced stage of negotiations with a few companies at the moment and we're going to have a launch event in Birmingham in November Nice, so you're the first person to be told about that.
Speaker 1:There we go, yeah, yeah. That's quite a thing, because I know that, if you, the way to impact the planet, I think, is through our younger generation. Yes, and so I think teaching the younger generation about heart-based decisions, about feeling emotions, about working out what's good for you, making decisions when you're calm and at ease, yeah, I think are all key, great strategies, but I don't think sometimes schools struggle to really teach them.
Speaker 2:I think it's not necessarily the fault of the education system, because the education system does what it's told generally. But I see, so big, I've got a large secondary school just along the road and just along the road in the other direction there's a further education college and if you went into that on the road in the other direction because of further education in college, and if you went into that, you went into either of those two establishments and you said to those young people, do you think you are prepared for life outside school After school? They wouldn't be. I don't think education prepares young people. I'm not saying I didn't leave school ready to settle my own teeth either. I left school in the early 1970s. I had skills that I could. Yeah, I got a job space away, but I had to learn an awful lot more. I didn't go to university or anything like that. I had to learn an awful lot more. Because young people don't tend to know too much about budgeting. I know 20 year olds who still live at home with their parents and they don't pay any rent and their parents pay them over a burden bill for them and things like that, and it's like why I like the old fashioned.
Speaker 2:I was the oldest of six children and when I was 14, my mum came home one day with a carrier bag and in the carrier bag she had she said oh, there's something in there for you. And in that carrier bag was a Harris Tweed jacket, leather packages on the elbows. And she said that's for you. And I said no, I can't wear that. I said I'm 14. This was in 1970. I said I've got teachers at school. They're 60. You've got to wear that sort of thing. I said I can't wear that. She said well, it's all I could afford. I'd gone into the second-hand clothes shop. It was costing. Probably might have been 10 shillings or something like that in those days, 50p or I don't know anyway. So when my dad came home that day from work I said to him Dad, can you help me to get a job in the school holidays? You could do that in those days. I'm not saying that I was 14 and I was going to work in the school holidays. I never asked my parents for money again after that, so I had that kind of decree of independence.
Speaker 2:When I got to know my parents again much later in life, my mum said to me she said you always were independent. I said what do you mean? She said when you went to school the first day you went to school, you were five years old. She said I took you to school the first day and went and collected you and then, after that, you said you wanted to go on your own. I don't remember that, but she told me that was the case. Maybe I have been accused of being too independent. Yeah, you do have to be. There has to be a balance. I think, yeah, policy decisions. They are about having a balance in your life. How does this feel? Is this actually good? Is this, is this the right path to go down? Yeah, is this the right how's? How is this going to make me feel? How do I feel about doing this? How do I feel about this course of action?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you very much, graham. It's been a pleasure chatting to you.
Speaker 2:Oh much to contact me. By the way, my email address is very simple. It's graham at graham thrush dot com, and please feel free to drop me an email.
Speaker 1:I'm very happy to talk to anybody when the podcast, when the podcast goes live, we'll have all the. I'll get your contact details as well. Brilliant, lovely, yeah, perfect. Thank you very much, you're most welcome James.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, love it's.
