Breaking Free: Overcoming Self-Doubt and Rediscovering Your Inner Strength with Rod Boothroyd

This episode explores the deep connection between childhood experiences and the beliefs that shape adult relationships and self-perception. The guest opens up about their struggles with self-worth and how early dependency on caregivers formed subconscious beliefs about their value and role in relationships. These unresolved beliefs, such as "I’m not worthy" and "I must be good to exist," often manifest as codependency, fear, and self-sabotage in adult life.

Through practical tools like inner child work and shadow work, the conversation unpacks how to identify and heal these limiting beliefs. Listeners are guided to revisit childhood moments and connect with their inner child to uncover hidden emotional wounds. The episode highlights the importance of self-love and releasing stored anger in healthy, constructive ways, such as through physical outlets or reimagined scenarios that allow the inner child to express suppressed emotions.

The discussion also introduces the framework of four archetypes—Warrior, King, Magician, and Lover—to help listeners understand the roles these energies play in personal growth. The Warrior represents action and boundary-setting, the King embodies leadership and care, while the Magician and Lover reflect creativity and emotional connection. Embracing these archetypes enables individuals to balance their emotional needs and reclaim their inner power.

This episode is a profound exploration of self-healing and growth, encouraging listeners to take actionable steps toward building healthier relationships, rediscovering their true selves, and breaking free from past limitations. Whether through shadow work, emotional expression, or embracing archetypal energies, this conversation offers transformative insights for anyone seeking to move forward with confidence and clarity.

Rod Boothroyd brings more than two decades' experience of working with men and women to his current work as a Healing The Shadow practitioner. His career in the area of human potential started with his training in Transactional Analysis psychotherapy at the Manchester Institute For Psychotherapy in 1999. Since then he has taken further training in Integrative Psychotherapy, worked with the ManKind Project UK and Ireland (where he was a Primary Integration Training leader), and researched in depth the art of working with, and reintegrating, the human shadow. He is now working as a one-to-one coach and therapist, and is also a supervisor with Healing The Shadow, an organisation devoted to emotional healing and the development of human potential.

Transcript

0:00

In today's episode, we talk about heart centered leadership. And how you can start to bring this into your life. We looked at the impact parents, schools and society can have on children. And how you can identify and then change your habits and limiting beliefs. Welcome to Man Questifying Meaning, where we help men navigate modern life, find their true purpose, and redefine manhood. I'm your host, James, and each week, inspiring guests share their journeys of overcoming fear Embracing vulnerability and finding success. From experts to everyday heroes. Get practical advice and powerful insights. Struggling with career, relationships or personal growth? We've got you covered. Join us on Man Quest to Find Meaning. Now, let's dive in.

James: 0:57

Perhaps the only thing that can save us from an ecological and social disaster is that every man who can now makes a choice to step fully into its king archetype and live from that place in every area of his life. Good morning, Rod. What do you mean by that statement?

Rod: 1:19

Good morning to you, James. Pleasure to be here. And I can tell you very precisely what I mean by that. That. In a world where forces that could be described as dark are encroaching on every aspect of our lives, compliance and passivity are no longer adequate as a way of life. What it requires for us to survive, socially, ecologically, and in perhaps financial ways as well, and certainly in terms of societies, that every man who can, and every woman for that matter, steps into the fullest version of themselves, And starts acting from that place. And when I say the fullest version of themselves, I'm of course talking about the K More Queen archetype. That is the expansive version of ourselves that has wisdom, discernment, heart centered, loves other people rather than seeing other people as enemies, and is caring about the planet and the world we live in and what happens to it.

James: 2:23

I suppose, perfect examples of what's been going on recently with obviously in the U. S., but also what's going on in politics in the U. K. You have people who come into Parliament or come into as a president who aren't really in their king or queen energy. So they they lie to get themselves there and then they backtrack, or they might say something. I'll give you a perfect example, the other day, Donald Trump said the cure to depression is to work harder.

Rod: 2:59

Gosh. Well, I think there's many things to be gained by looking at what's happening in the moment and comparing it with history. So I think of Hitler, he's a very good example, and it turns out that Hitler was seriously abused by his father. Now When we're talking of abuse, extreme abuse, perhaps the likes of which we can't imagine, or perhaps we can, depending on what experience we've had in life. But for most people this would be unimaginable abuse. Now, what's the connection between that and Hitler turning into a demagogue? And I think the answer is, the repression of intense rage. So intense that it's unimaginable to most of us. The child that's abused and has no power feels incredibly, can feel incredibly angry. Rage that goes beyond our imagination. And later in life that will play out. One of the ways it can play out is in demagoguery, which means taking office by legitimate means, like Hitler did in an election. Moving into a position of power and then from that position of power casting aside everything that democracy would hold dear and becoming literally a dictator. Now I'm not suggesting that this is an exact parallel with anything that's been happening in recent times, but it's an interesting point to reflect on that Hitler's rise to power was supported by the majority, I say the majority, the truth is I don't actually know. Whether it was a majority or an influential minority, but it was supported by many, many people who saw him as the solution to their problems. And what happened? Well, we all know what happened to that story. around 40 million people died as a result of Hitler's inflated, rageful way of being in the world and his lack of humanity. Here's the key, isn't it, James? The lack of humanity that comes when people aren't standing in that place you described a moment ago. The fullest sovereign energy that they can occupy.

James: 5:16

To be able to stand in your full sovereign, whether it's the king energy, there's a lot of challenges but at the same time there's a lot of things which are good so that it's about to step into your king there's a there's an ounce of having to work through all our childhood traumas, our childhood wounds, and to be able to express ourselves as fully as we possibly can in a healthy way.

Rod: 5:50

Yeah. Well, I think you're overstating it a little bit, James, to be honest. I don't think you have to work through all of the childhood wounds. It's a gradual process. And I would be the last person To want to discourage anybody from making the attempt to step into a place that looks too difficult, challenging, even impossible to reach, because the truth is everyone can make some adjustment to the way they're acting, living, behaving. Thinking and feeling that will take them in that direction. Here's an interesting thing. Well, it's interesting to me anyway, so I'll share it with you. I went on an Anthony Robbins seminar, in fact, but I went on a few of them a long time ago, and he may be doing things differently now. So this is qualified by the fact that he was doing what I'm describing 20, 20 odd years ago, which was massive, irreversible change. That was his watchword, his motto, almost massive, irreversible change, burn your bridges. And he raised everybody in the audience, which is great. A remarkable feat, we're talking 10, 000 people, to a pitch of excitement and frenzy almost. Not hysteria, but just highly energized. And left them to go out into the world, in that state, with that motto burnt into their minds. Burn your bridges. Massive irreversible change. Now, met some of the people that I'd been on these workshops with later in life and I thought it would be interesting to ask them how it had gone. And generally it hadn't gone particularly well because it didn't stick and most of the people hadn't really managed it once the enthusiasm had dropped. They hadn't really managed to make any significant changes in their life, but I came across one man who did. He went home, he resigned from his job, he left his wife, and I forget the rest of the story, but it's not hard to imagine. It was a complete and utter disaster. Because once he'd burnt his bridges, He didn't have the psychological resources to keep that energy level going. So burning your bridges and massive irreversible change might have worked for Anthony Robbins, but I don't think they work for many people. So my watchword is slow and gradual. Do what you can do and on the basis of what you find out about yourself, then do something else and do something else. And in that way, gradually, gradually grow, which is how it's been for me. So, of course, I would support that point of view, wouldn't I?

James: 8:31

Talking about slow gradual changes, the last eight years have been slow and gradual and even though it can take a lot of time going slow and gradual, you can see the difference. I can see a difference from myself now compared to what I was back in 2016. The, I'm so much more happy. I'm so much more on, on my purpose. I know what direction I'm going in. There's a sense of being able to connect to my own emotions. And so it's, it's that massive, massive changes. But over a long period of time can have massive impacts.

Rod: 9:15

Beautiful, beautifully put incremental change. Yeah, absolutely. And over a period of time, you look back and you think, well, let me personalize it. I look back and I think, yeah, actually that was a journey worth taking because it's a lot more rewarding to be where I am now than where I was 20, 24 years ago, 25 years ago, when my journey started.

James: 9:40

There's so many questions I want to ask you, because I've read your books and I know who you are. Can we just start off by telling me about yourself, and where did it all begin with regards to personal growth and development?

Rod: 9:54

Sure, not a problem. I think it's fair to say that I was born into a working class family, which had some really unhelpful limiting cultural beliefs about itself as a family. Poverty was high on that list. You see people's experience in previous generations to a large extent, not exclusively had been poverty was the order of the day for them, as indeed it was for many people, of course, not suggesting that was in any way different to a mass of people, but of course, some people in that situation survive and thrive and grow out of it, whereas some take that cultural label and move it on to future generations. So I grew up, it would be fair to say in an atmosphere of a poverty consciousness. But the interesting thing also was that there was a thread in the family of skilled crafts people furniture makers who were making exquisitely carved furniture, for example. And my father was a stained glass artist. So there was two threads running concurrently. One was poverty and one was creativity which was an interesting environment to grow up in because, of course, creativity was very much stifled by the underlying belief that Somehow we are poor and that's our destiny. And there was another one too. Life is a struggle. That was prevalent. I think that things were not regarded as challenges or or problems to be solved. They were regarded as massive crises so kind of life is a struggle. And therefore, if you believe at some very deep level, life is a struggle, of course, that's what will happen. And just to make the point in case it needs to be made, I'm not suggesting that any of these beliefs were consciously, people weren't talking about them over the dinner table. They were in the fabric of the way they lived and had been taught to live by previous generations. So I escaped that to some extent through good schooling. Although, and I look back on it now compared to how schooling is these days. And I think, well, I was very fortunate. This was the era of beating and cruelty and sadistic, perverted schoolmasters. And there were at least three pedophiles in my school, but it was a day school. So they didn't have much opportunity to express their. personalities, but looking back now, it's very clear to me that, it was a very different world and the beating of children. Can you imagine, this may to some of your listeners be familiar, but to some, it may not be. If you went home and said to your parents, as I did, and I was beaten today, looking for some support and sympathy, what, okay. Almost everybody who had this experience reports the same thing. Their parents would say to them, as mine did, if you'd been beaten, you must have done something to deserve it. Can you imagine what a denial of the child's right to be happy, healthy, protected that is? So anyway, I'm, I'm digressing. That got me to university and that got me into a reasonable job. I say reasonable because it couldn't have been less appropriate for me. Not that I knew that at the time. It was an accountancy role. And, Not surprisingly, perhaps, I discovered I wasn't very good at accountancy, and so did the company I worked for, who fortunately gave me the job of running the accounts department instead, which was much more to my taste, and much more suited to me, people issues and all the rest of it, to find people fascinating. But, there came a time when the company made me redundant, and that was aged 40. Well, the classic midlife crisis, really, because I just couldn't cope. I mean, to me, without a job, that was the end of my existence. So attached was I to this belief system that it would be impossible to go into the world and make a living for myself. But, a nervous breakdown, whatever that may be, means an emotional crisis really, doesn't it? Led me into therapy, and going into therapy led me into, The minute I went in, I was hooked and started training a year after I'd actually, gone into therapy myself. And that journey has continued in various forms ever since. And it has proved to be a very rewarding, successful in many ways. I don't just mean financially, but I mean in social terms, in the exploration of myself, in terms of what I've discovered about the world, and indeed the pleasure of the creativity that's come out in writing the books. So it was a turning point that I know not everybody manages to find in their life. But here's the thing. If you're at rock bottom, and there's nowhere lower to go, the only way is up, or staying where you are, and I think the majority of people eventually do manage to find a way up, out of that place, and it's invariably reflects more of who they really are, than what they were doing before the crisis.

James: 15:04

I can relate to some of that. I've noticed myself that I have this belief through the last couple of weeks, actually, that there's a belief that says, I do not exist. And so I'm working, I'm working through this belief. How did that belief that you said that you had a belief for yourself that I, I don't exist?

Rod: 15:28

Well, it's How did that impact you? It's not quite so dramatic as that, actually. It's a conditional existence wound for me. I mean, just think about this for a moment. A child who's abused, or ignored, or somehow completely negated. What are they going to conclude about themselves in that childhood environment? That somehow, they're not present. That somehow they don't matter. That somehow their presence is insignificant. Well, that's what we call the existence wound and it's summed up in that sentence, I don't exist, but it's more of a psychic absence, a sense of powerlessness or not having presence in the world, which is because you haven't been met by people. Now, there's another way that wound can manifest, which is conditional existence, which goes something like I only exist. Recognizing that the word exist doesn't literally mean physically, but psychically and psychologically and emotionally. I only exist if I am a certain way in the world. So that way would usually be something to do with what the family expected. So that existence in a psychic sense would be conditional upon the child behaving in a way that the family expected culturally, socially, and that might be with great violence and it might be with great passivity and it might be with anything else that the parents or family raising that child wanted. Complete compliance or complete rebellion. I worked with a man some years ago who whose father was extremely violent and his son decided the best way to get his father's attention would be to be extremely violent himself. And indeed he tried to kill his father at one point. Fortunately, he didn't manage it. Across the police were called and intervened. But the point I'm making is that existence isn't an all or nothing thing. It's how much presence you can bring to the world, how much you're encouraged to fully explore who you are and show it to the world, and not be judged for it in a way that causes you to repress parts of yourself.

James: 17:44

So as a, so if we go back to the childhood and stuff, we can, as a child, we're very susceptible to our environment. We almost are looking, how can we survive in a situation, whether it's with our parents or teachers or whoever it's with. How does that part of ourselves as a child, where we're vulnerable, impact us later on in our own life?

Rod: 18:14

Well, it can manifest if, and if people don't work on it can really restrict people. So I mentioned a moment ago that belief, that was running through my family that life is a struggle. Now I really thought I dealt with that. 20 years of therapy, you know, it's kind of like, and, and not just being in therapy, but practicing therapy in one form or another, running men's groups and so on. So I say 20 years, but it would have been less than that. 16, probably. I went to a workshop, and when I came out of the workshop, I needed some groceries for when I got home. So I picked them up at the BP service station, the M& S shop there, and I carried them. Five things, I think. And I carried them in my arms towards the counter. Now, what I'd been working on in that workshop was my belief that life is a struggle. It's not really a conscious belief, but I can see how it's played out at various points in my life where I've made things difficult for myself. Anyway, so I'd been working on life is a struggle and I emerged triumphant thinking that I'd overcome that belief system. So here I am in the garage getting my groceries. I've got five items and I carry them like this to the counter and the guy behind the counter looks up at me alone at the groceries and back at me. And he says, Do you want a bag or are you going to struggle? I mean really, can you imagine? I've just been working on my belief that life is a struggle and here's somebody right in front of me sending me a message. About what I'm doing. Now, of course, you say, well, it's a coincidence. You were carrying five things, it looked like it was all going to fall out of your arms. That's not the point. The point is, somehow, I was still manifesting a belief that life is a struggle. Probably because I just brought it into consciousness. So I think the, the, the motto, the, the, not the motto, the takeaway from that for me is that it's a continuous process. It's not an all or nothing. It's not one event cures everything. It's incremental. Like we said a moment ago, you work on yourself and things change slowly and to a small degree and over time it, it amounts to a massive change. And. You can look back on where you came from and think, whoa, wow. That was very different. If I was carrying a belief that life is a struggle, as I clearly was, then it might play out. In the way that I made decisions. I, I couldn't make decisions. I would ponder them for days, if not weeks. And just struggle with them. Because that's the fabric of what I believe to be a way of being in the world. And, the interesting point about these beliefs is that they're infinite. There's an infinite number of them. And they're quite hard to pin down. Some of the big ones, sure. Oh, I'll never be in a relationship. No one will ever want me. I'm destined to be alone. I'm powerless. I can't do anything in the world. I can't make anything happen. Yeah, you've got to think everything through very, very in great detail before you make a decision. Children should be seen and not heard, etc, etc. They're obvious because people actually can bring them into their everyday recognition of who they are. But the, the bedrock of who we are, that foundation of limiting beliefs. Yeah, that takes some, that takes some digging. You And they're discovered incrementally again, bit by bit, one by one, I think.

James: 21:57

These parts of ourselves, these beliefs, and in some respects, we would call, would we call them our shadows?

Rod: 22:04

Well, they're in shadow, for sure, in the sense that shadow is everything you repress, hide, or deny from yourself, and the very nature of those limiting beliefs is that they're hidden, because if they were in front of you, you'd be aware of them, you could do something about them. They're transmitted very subtly through the culture a child grows up in. So it's like when a child is born, it's not exactly a blank slate, far from it, but in terms of social interaction. You wouldn't, well, I mean, if you've brought up children, you'll know how they just absorb what goes on around them as the way to be in the world, without ever really articulating it. That is just how life is. Look, I watch my parents struggling financially, socially, whatever it is, and then I realize that that's the natural way for humans to interact, and somehow I incorporate that into myself. That's one way limiting beliefs can form, but another is quite different. They can be conscious. One of my clients who went to boarding school said he remembered the exact moment he decided never to share anything with his parents. And that was when he'd been beaten and he'd gone home. At the weekend and he'd said to his parents, I was beaten by the housemaster and his father said exactly what I said a few minutes ago in context of my own education, so called education. If you were beaten, you must have done something to deserve it. And he said, I can remember very clearly at that moment, making a decision. I would never share anything with my parents about my own inner world ever again. And he never did. He just lived within his own social world and his own inner world, but completely cut off from that level of connection with his parents. So on the one hand, you've got the cultural, and on the other hand, you've got the result of life's Events causing people to form these beliefs about themselves and they're not always spoken out. I remember also at primary school. It's just flashed into my mind. So I'll give voice to it. Children were made to stand in the waste paper basket in the corner of the room. If they couldn't answer a question. This was primary school. This would be age nine. Now that never happened to me. But I remember looking at the boys who were made to stand in the waste paper basket and thinking. You poor sods. Although I wouldn't have used that language at the time. It was like, it was puzzling to me. Why would anybody do such a thing to a child who couldn't answer a question instead of explaining it to them? I mean, really. But the point of the story, such as it is, What would those children think about themselves? What would they come to believe about themselves in that situation? Nothing positive, I'm sure. It's extraordinary, isn't it? I mean, how do human beings treat each other like this? Well, we know they do, but it's a rhetorical question, really. Because they are treated that way by others. And they then act it out on the next generation. Goodness me.

James: 25:07

If we use an example of myself, you could probably explain that a little bit better. There might be people listening to this. It might be a little bit confused. Could have given quite a lot of information. And so I was going to talk about here is that mr. Nice guy, the part of me that I didn't realize to probably three, three, four years ago, back in 2016 when my journey began, I came out of a relationship. Breakup. And I was literally at my lowest. I had anxiety, depression. I didn't know where I wanted to go. Lacked purpose. Felt like a zombie. So didn't really want to get up for work. Around women, I would kind of allow them to lead, but with the idea that if I, if I said something wrong, they might leave me.

Rod: 26:01

Oh, yes. Where did you pick that belief up from?

James: 26:06

I think it's something to, so in my childhood, I've, I grew up in a farm and my dad was always out working on the farm. So I got to see him very little. So mum was always in charge. And so there was a sense of, and I think sometimes my mum was a little bit stressed having two, three kids and having, like you said, poverty consciousness because farming, that's quite often how farming went. And that kind of linked on to all that and my own beliefs.

26:40

Yeah.

James: 26:44

All these beliefs from my childhood had led me to this point where I would treat women in a way that almost put me at the very bottom.

Rod: 26:56

Yeah. Could you explain

James: 26:57

a little bit more into that?

Rod: 26:59

Well, you know, as a child, when you feel you're completely dependent on somebody for your survival, which is what it amounts to children will do almost anything to establish their own sense of safety. even if they're completely wrong about the logic of it. So, you know, it would depend what conclusions you came to looking at your dad out in the fields, 13 hours a day, seven days a week, I've no doubt. And your mother stressed and working hard in the house with three children. What we'd need to explore would be what beliefs you came to about yourself. But I don't know, it could be something like women are strong and men are weak, or, or, I need to keep on the right side of a woman because my entire survival depends on her, not on my father. And you know, when you begin thinking, when a child begins thinking like that, it's not hard to see how he'd begin to identify with the woman rather than the man and be as a child, you have no idea how to relate to women in the way that a grown man would. I mean, how could you possibly know that except by watching your father's way of relating to women? Or if you didn't have that. Opportunity or that was all askew to kind of learn from somebody who did know about this stuff later in life So, you know I can imagine several different possibilities. Oh Women are strong, men are weak. I've got to stay on the right side of a woman to ensure my survival. If I don't please mother, then she'll get cross and dad isn't interested in me, so I'll have nobody to turn to. And on and on it goes, but, you know, most of this is unconscious, but I can sort of imagine those three explanations without even thinking too hard about it. But what do you think, James? What do you think you can, conclusions you came to?

James: 28:52

I have to say In my life, generally struggled with women especially in relationships. And there was one relationship where I allowed the said person to treat me like crap and literally shout at me all the time. And that kind of left me in almost in anxiety and depression in that moment because there's a sense of I'm not worthy. So obviously there's a belief I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough. There's a belief that this is partially where I think the conditional belief came. I do not exist unless I'm a good boy.

Rod: 29:28

Oh, yeah. Well, there you go, you see. Absolutely. But, you know, are you open to an experiment? We haven't rehearsed this just for the benefit of the listeners. So you just close your eyes for a moment and just focus back on you and your childhood. And it doesn't matter what image comes to mind, it'll be the right one for this moment. And tell me when you've got that image, how old you are and what you're doing.

James: 29:53

I'm about six. I'm actually crying under the table.

Rod: 29:56

Right. Okay, so perfect. So take a look at that six year old from your stepped back position now as a man in your imagination. Take a look at him and tell me what is it that he believes about himself at the age of six crying under the table?

James: 30:16

I'm not worthy. I do not exist.

Rod: 30:20

Wow. Anything else? I'm not here. I'm not here. Yeah. Now that's great. Bring yourself back, James. So you see, it's that easy, actually, to identify those beliefs. And I find that quite amazing. You know, we tend to think, well, the past is a long way back in history, like whatever it is, 30, 40 years back in history, but actually, psychologically, it's very near the surface. And that nearness to consciousness means they are playing out every day of our lives until we do something about them. Those limiting beliefs are playing out every day of our lives until we do something about them. I mean, it's extraordinary. So thank you for that. Thank you for that.

James: 31:04

My pleasure. And what I've noticed, obviously of doing the work last eight years, how doing the inner child work, healing, but also using the archetypes, which we'll talk about in a minute, especially the magician and the safety officer, and working out what needs the little child, the inner child needs. And what I need, and being able to give those needs myself,

Rod: 31:32

rather than

James: 31:33

looking outside myself.

Rod: 31:35

Yes, I think that's the only way it can work, really. I mean, if you're looking to have your inner child looked after by a relationship partner, you're on a road to disaster. That's the route to codependency. And it's never going to work, because it's not what a woman wants from a man anyway, unless she herself is in a Very regressed place. A child who's wounded so badly. will have that energy in their brain, in their mind, as they grow up into an adult. And it will play out. It will play out. Because every time something prods that man, or woman for that matter, it works both ways, that's reminiscent of what happened in childhood, all of that stored energy that hasn't been expressed will rise up to the surface and find a way out. And often, in a relationship, it comes out as anger. Sometimes violence, sometimes breaking plates. Now the interesting thing about that I think, is that when that happens, the person who's experiencing it, experiences it as though that is who they really are. And yet they're not that person or that energy, they are a grown man or a grown woman. What's actually coming through them at that point is the 5, whatever it is year old child who lives inside them. That's why things can go very badly wrong in a relationship when two people are not meeting on an adult to adult level but on some kind of parent child or child child level. Child child can be quite fun if you're having sex, that, I, you know, there are places for it, but it's not appropriate for a child's rage to erupt in an adult, so called adult relationship. So your question was, I think, something around, well, what does the inner child need? And I think there's two fundamental things. The first is love, and as you've rightly observed a moment ago, that has to come from you or me or the individual in whom that inner child is living. Which is not to say that a relationship can't be healing, it can, very healing, but ultimately when people talk about loving another person, they say, I've heard it said, you can't love somebody else until you love yourself. Right? What I think that really means is, you can't love somebody else until you love your own inner child. Who's carrying all that rage, all that despair, all that hurt, all that wounding. And, and of course positive things as well, sure. But you can't love somebody else fully until you love your own inner child. Which is where the inner child work comes from. I think the other main thing the inner child needs, well I could extend it to say it needs somebody who understands him, which is true I think, but the other main thing I think is an ability to express the anger that he couldn't express in childhood. Now I say, I've said this to quite a lot of people over the years and nobody's ever really contradicted it until a couple of weeks ago when somebody I was talking to, who's also a therapist said, actually, I think what the inner child needs more than anything is to be loved. And it pause, made me pause and think about that because I've always regarded the first and primary need of the inner child as to express the rage that he couldn't or she couldn't express in childhood because it's so destructive to the system. If you've got an inner child in you who's angry and it bursts out occasionally, road rage and all that stuff is about the inner child. Surely the best thing for the entire system is to get that out of the body and lower that level of anger until it's something you can manage and hold comfortably. But then as I say, my colleagues said, no, I think the inner child needs love more than anything. It's really made me think if a child, if a man were to do. Well, I don't know the answer to that question because I've been focusing a lot on anger work, both for myself, not so much lately, but in the early days of my growth and for other people. So I'm not, I'm not exactly doubting that anger work is necessary. I'd say the moment I'm in a place where I think. The inner child inside us and you and me and all of us needs a lot of love and the ability to express what he or she couldn't express in childhood. And they're probably equally important.

James: 36:28

Hmm. Where could, with regards to working through, People's traumas, where can people start or where, where, where's the best place to start?

Rod: 36:40

Yeah, great question and thanks for asking it. Well, you won't be surprised to hear that since I've spent 16 years practicing shadow work, I'm going to tell you shadow work is the best. But you see, I, I mean, it's really interesting. I think, Therapy in a conventional psychodynamic session where you sit and talk to somebody for an hour can produce a lot of emotion, and it can go very deep, and it can change things, but I, I always feel the healing there isn't so much from the experience. therapeutic conversation as from the relationship. You know, it's like if a child didn't have a house, I mean, you wouldn't be in therapy, I assume, if you had had adequate relationships around you with people in childhood. I mean, it's just common sense. The biggest single factor in classical therapy, determines the outcome, the successful outcome of therapy is the relationship. It's been proven time and time and time again, not the method of therapy, but the relationship between the practitioner and the client. So I imagine these two people in a room sitting talking and this gives the client the opportunity to express what's never been said and to find healing in the relationship. And that's fabulous, but it can only go so far. This is why people in Jungian analysis and Freudian analysis spent 20 or 30 years. Three times a week in the extreme form in analysis, as it was called. It's ridiculous. It's like. Something's missing here. That is not how therapy should go. So shadow work gives people the opportunity not only to talk and build a relationship with their therapist, facilitator, practitioner, whatever you want to call it. But it also gives them the opportunity to act out scenarios from the past in a way that the child standing in the waste paper basket as a nine year old at primary school could go into shadow work, and we would find a way of setting something up that resembled that situation, and the child would then be able to express whatever he couldn't express at the time, which would generally be rage or anger against the teacher or his teacher. Whatever was necessary I had one chap who was in a similar, but slightly different picture and we were working on it. And I said, well, now what needs to happen now? He said, I need to lead the entire class. In an attack on Mr. Grimshaw, or whatever this guy's name was. And we need to throw all our, uh, sandwiches and drinks and chalk and pens and papers at him until he's on the floor, and then he has to crawl out of the room. So we had this set up and enacted it out. And you know, what I call this is, for the client, or for the inner child within the client, I call it, the necessary completion of what couldn't be completed when he was actually in that situation. Poetic justice, as you say, poetic justice. And that's great. And it makes massive changes because it gives people back the power that they didn't have at the time. That's the key to that. And then of course, there's this question that we've been talking about for a few minutes about, well, where does love come into this? How does love your inner child, soothe him, talk to him, practice this every day and see what happens? And gradually you build a relationship with him. But a lot of people don't love their inner child. They look back on that child with distaste, perhaps, or hatred even. And you'll hear them say things like, I was a right little sod. And you're thinking, Oh, we've got something to work on here, haven't we? So if you're at war with yourself, I was a right little sod. What happens to the part of you that still carries that childhood energy when he hears the person he's become say that? Do you know I was a right little sod. God, I deserve to be kicked by my father because I was so disobedient. Now we really do have something to work on, don't we? Get the idea? Am I explaining this? Yeah.

James: 40:56

For those who perhaps can't do shadow work or can't get to somebody to do shadow work, where can people start?

Rod: 41:06

Yeah, great idea. Well, I started just by doing anger work on my own, because I knew I carried a lot of anger. And what did that look like? Well, it looked like getting a punch bag and putting in the garage and just whopping it when I felt the tension building up. Then just working through it till I was kind of calm again. That's great. And it doesn't have to be a punch bag. It can be a baseball bat on the bed, making sure nobody can hear you. If you're shouting at the same time, particularly the neighbors who might call the police or whatever, but I'm serious about that. Self protection is important in all of this work. So maybe for some people who don't have that level of privacy. Go down the gym, do some punch bag work, do some lifting and weights work, do some running, anything that will get it out of the body. That goes some of the way, but I think one key factor is what I was just describing a moment ago in shadow work. It needs to be directed against the original perpetrator. So, if it's a punch bag that you're hitting, Then put somebody's face on it. Mr. Grimshaw's, perhaps. By the way, to all the teachers out there called Mr. Grimshaw, it wasn't you, it was somebody else.

James: 42:24

What kind of signs are there that we're actually progressing in the right direction? Oh,

Rod: 42:29

well, I think it becomes very clear. There'll be those moments where people just go, oh, what did I just do? Wow. That's amazing. I've never done that before. Or a different sense of self, perhaps, you know, it's like, Oh. Okay, yeah, I can do that. Or other people's feedback, actually. Wow, you've really changed, James. I remember when you were with Cynthia 20 years ago. My God, you were a bit of a patsy then, weren't you? Now look at you, you're in a great relationship. Et cetera, et cetera.

43:01

Yeah, yeah.

Rod: 43:02

Disclaimer, James was not in a relationship with anyone called Cynthia.

James: 43:07

Can you explain the four archetypes? The king, the warrior, magician and lover?

Rod: 43:12

Yeah, well, I certainly will. It's a great model for the personality people have refined it into 12 and 20 and heaven knows what, but fundamentally, warrior, I'll give you another name for each of them, by the way, James, which might be more to some people's taste, warrior, action taker, goes out into the world, gets things done, allows you to know that you can have an impact on the world, that you can change things, establishes boundaries, Hey, you, don't talk to me like that. It's not okay with me when you say those things. Physical boundaries, social boundaries, emotional boundaries. Yeah? So it's about action, assertion, and then of course that natural reaction of anger when somebody does invade your boundaries in some way. That instant fight or flight response. It's a part of us. It can't be denied that an angry surge in certain circumstances is. Is a part of who we are. That leads us on neatly to the king, whose job is to control the whole system, king or queen. heart centered leader, perhaps, in the sense that we've seen autocratic kings throughout history in Britain, and that's not the model of kingship we're talking about. It's heart centered leadership, where your concern is for everybody you're responsible for. You care for them. You don't quite regard them as equal necessarily, although in a family relationship you probably would, but somehow you're first among equals. That is a wonderful expression, first among equals. So heart centered leadership, you care for people, you want your, you want the best for them, you look after them as best you can, you give them the opportunity to grow as best they can, you have wisdom, discernment, you can make a judgment about what's needed and act on it or get your warrior stroke action taker to act on it. Imagine a mentor who was caring and metaphorically had a hand on your shoulder as you were growing up. That would be a good example of a heart centered leader. And of course, you know, in a way every father or mother ought to be a heart centered leader. Because that's what their children need from them. Now, what else comes under the heart centered leader, stroke, sovereign, stroke, king, stroke, queen's remit? The magician, the thinker, the, the creative part that can think, solve problems, come up with solutions. Also creative. Delve into the unconscious. There's a lot of magician work in the facilitation shadow work. That's a kind of sense of falling on something deeper than overt consciousness. And people who take part in plant medicine ceremonies, they shaman and facilitators in those situations will be using that part of magician, but as also. There's an, um, a particular energy associated with each of the archetypes with the warrior. It's anger, which is about boundaries and defense With the king, it's joy, which is about the knowledge that you're good enough. With the magician, it's anxiety, and that's the early warning system that something isn't quite right. Something needs to be looked at. There's a problem in the kingdom of some sort, and the magician's job is to go away and find a solution to that, to work things out. So if the poor child's standing in the waste paper basket as a nine year old, I think his magician is probably going to be a bit crushed, because he's just being told basically, you're stupid, you're a dunce, stand in the corner, nobody wants to hear what you've got to say, I'm not interested as a teacher in you, I just want to punish you. So his magician will probably be busy coming up with strategies to stay safe in the world. Well, actually, all our magicians were doing that when we were children. So, another word for the magician is transformer, in the sense that it can take you from one place to another. And in the arena of personal growth, that's important, because it's often the magician who finds the next step on the path. By the way, did you think about doing that so and so course with so and so James? Did you think about doing the whatever it is course? And somehow the mysterious way of the magician is to present these things as coincidences or chance, or indeed in response to research. It doesn't have to be that mystical. That's weird. I was just thinking about Fred and then he phoned me. That's very magician y, isn't it? And then finally, the lover. Yeah, exactly. Lover. That's the part of you that's about feeling and connection with other people. The way I like to, it's the primal archetype, and therefore I think probably the strongest in us. And I always like to think of it as when a baby is born. Is it received like this? with a warm loving embrace, or is it received like that, or God forbid is it received not at all, and it's rejected at birth. Because those are the things that will shape that part of it, for a long time to come. The sense of being held close to mother, On the breast, love, being fed in that way is being fed love, not just food. The baby is secure. And without that, which sadly seems to be quite common these days, although becoming less I think, as people wake up to the idea that medical people don't necessarily know everything about babies, and a mother's instinct is probably the best thing for a baby, that's changing. But that desire for connection is I think the primal drive within all of us and continues throughout our lives as a very powerful force, one way or another, it's about connecting with us, connecting with nature, connecting with the world around us, connecting with purpose, meaning. And of course, if you have all these four archetypes working in harmony, you've got a very balanced and evolved human being. I've yet to meet one. Like that, but you know, that's probably the field I work in.

James: 49:21

So how can we as human beings start to utilize these four archetypes? To start to become

Rod: 49:29

more, more balanced. It's a great question. And I think the answer is first to gain an understanding of how they operate and almost to see yourself as made up of these four motors or engines, if you like, that each of which propels you in a different function, a different way in the world, Lover, connection, warrior, action taker, king, leadership of self, it's not about leadership of others, it can be, but it's about leadership of self, and lover, connection, magician, dealing with problems and finding solutions. Although it's shameless self publicity, I would say if this is all a mystery to people at this stage, then perhaps they could read my first book, which is a good introduction to the archetypes. Do have a copy there?

James: 50:19

I do

Rod: 50:20

have

James: 50:20

a copy.

Rod: 50:20

Fantastic, because I was just searching for the one that's not on my desk.

James: 50:24

That one, that's the one inside.

Rod: 50:25

Warrior, magician, Lover, King. A Guide to New Archetypes.

James: 50:29

I can actually vouch because I, I read the first one, the original. But I found it quite hard English, and it's very much, it explains the part, it doesn't give you any actionable steps, whereas yours, your book is it allows you to see different steps that you can take, which is what we kind of need as human beings. It's great having this book of describing the four archetypes, but we need a kind of, we need a. An idea of what to do.

Rod: 51:06

Absolutely, you're so right. I admire Moore and Gillette because they were pioneers. They were groundbreaking pioneers of male psychology. And without them, who knows where we would be now? I suppose you could say. Somebody would have stepped in and done it. But they laid the foundations. But Robert Moore in particular, bless him. He was a very intellectual character. I would say he was magician. Mostly magician. Although he was a very good therapist apparently. But. Anyway, I don't know him and I never met him because he's no, no longer with us, unfortunately, but I would say on a judgment level that he was probably neck upwards, i. e. mostly in his head. And I think the book reflects that. It's quite intellectual. Whereas my intention was to make it practical and yes, I mean, I acknowledge the debt that I owe and everybody in the field of men's work. And to that extent, women's work as well, because they're just female versions of the same archetypes. Women tend to call the magician priestess, or sorceress, or shaman, things like that. But they're the same archetypes, they just manifest slightly differently. And I owe a great debt, as we all do in this field, to Moore and Gillette. And yet As you kindly observed, I think my book has a far more actionable basis for people to take steps and we could talk for hours about how people can develop those archetypes, but I guess the better option is just to say, if you have access to a copy of the book. Then, just get a copy and, I'd extend an offer to anybody who really can't afford it, genuinely can't afford it. If they send me through you, James, if it's okay, their name and address, I'll send them a copy. But that's really for people who genuinely can't afford a copy, to buy a copy. I'd be happy to do that.

James: 52:58

Out of the four archetypes, which one is the archetype that you see people have the less or the people who struggle to connect to the least?

Rod: 53:09

It's a great question. You see, Moore and Gillette, they wrote the book in 1992, I believe. They said that the lover was the weakest archetype in men. I don't think that's true, and I don't think it's true now. I think there's no question the weakest archetype in the world, in men and women, actually, is the king or queen, the sovereign. You just look around the world. I mean, it's, it's obvious that the decisions people are making on a personal level are not sovereign decisions. They are decisions coming from quite wounded places. You know, people who are obsessed with social media, that's very magiciany. People who are obsessed with buying things through the internet or Amazon, you know, I mean, these stories of people who get five deliveries a day. Well, It's convenient and it can serve a very good purpose, but it's when it's taken to excess that there's something really wrong. People who are doing that, they're probably looking for some kind of reward, which is probably a lover need. People who are behaving got a few examples of that around the world at the moment and it's inflated, hugely pompous, ridiculous, grandiose way. And often in very damaging ways, they probably lack true sovereignty. And of course people who are depressed probably lack true warrior. Because I regard not all depression, let me quickly say, certainly not all depression, some is medical. But much depression is anger turned against the self. And nobody people don't understand this because you can't feel that it's anger turned against the self, it's unconscious. But that's a lack of warrior healthily displayed in the world where that energy would go outwards. It's the king and queen. Definitely. Whatever Moore and Gillette thought back in the nineties, it probably was for men to love it. You know, big, tough, strong men kind of thing. Then we had the people listening to this might not be old enough to remember, but we had a thing called the new man in the nineties, which was farcical because it, what it meant men should be very soft and gentle and do the housework. Not there's anything wrong with men doing the housework, but as part of this bigger picture of the new man, it was very feminized. And women. Feminists in particular were, were adamant that this was the way men had to go and lo and behold, men went that way, particularly in America, some men, and guess what? Women then discovered this was not what they wanted at all. They wanted a strong man who was compassionate, caring, respectful and loving. Those are the qualities women almost always in every survey say they want in a man. Somebody who's kind of feminized and doing the housework or can't assert himself or is passive or whatever. So anyway, I would say the archetype most lacking now is the king and queen, without a doubt. Look at the way the world's going.

James: 56:08

So what's the biggest challenges that we have? If we want to bring out the king and queen in modern society.

Rod: 56:16

Finding a reason to do it. Purpose, to kind of, that'd be purpose. Absolutely, but something that's personally meaningful enough to make you want to do it. Now, why are people not motivated like that? Because they're surrounded by influences that hypnotize them, you know, 27 streaming channels for the five quid a month or whatever it is buying parcels on Amazon, social media in particular engineered by social scientists, behavioral scientists of the utmost skill that once you're in there, oh my God, you're in and you're sucked down a rabbit hole of whatever it is, losing sight of your own Sense of control, actually. And on and on it goes. Endless news bulletins. 24 hour news channels. What the hell is that about? I mean, why would anybody want to listen to a 24 hour news channel every day about terrors that are happening on the other side of the world they can do nothing about, whilst they could be doing positive small acts of kindness in their own backyard and really cheering people up and making their community a wonderful place to be? Fascinating, isn't it? It's a negativity bias. It's a negativity bias. We're programmed to look for the negative because that was where danger lay. Well, as we were evolving as a species, look for the danger around, not for the positive things. You don't need to look for those, because by definition they are safe. Look for the danger. It's manifesting, I think, in all of the things I've just described. And really harming people's lives. Individual capacity to take charge of their own lives because they're consumed with this magician fear, if you like, at some level of the world being a terrible place and, oh, I better stay behind my front door because that's the only place I'll be safe, or I better console myself and look at trivial things on Facebook and LinkedIn and all the rest of them. None of that is compatible with going out into the world with a clear intention. That fulfills you and gives you a sense of meaning and purpose. It's, they are completely incompatible pastimes. To go out into the world with a sense of meaning and purpose requires autonomy. individuality, focus, intention, followed by action, intelligent thought, and probably in most cases, loving connection with other people. None of which is compatible with what's being stuffed down people's mouths and into their brains every day of the year. And you can see it, people consoling themselves with food that is clearly not good for them because it gives them their inner lover, a sort of sense of something. food satisfaction people watching Netflix because it distracts them from what they're worried about, etc, etc. It goes on and on and on,

James: 59:19

so how can people really step up and what steps can we start to take?

Rod: 59:24

Well, I think the first thing is, you need to start with an intention. That's where it all begins. So, one of the things that I talk about in Finding the King Within, is the need to focus on what it is that, I was going to say what you're here to do, but that's a bit grandiose, really. So, what would give you satisfaction and pleasure and fulfill you if you were to find a way of doing it? bringing that to the world. It doesn't have to be anything grandiose. Could be creating a beautiful garden. Could be forming a community get together once a week. It's not about being a king on a royal stage, ruling a country. It's about being a leader in your own life, in a way that serves you and serves the people around you. So I'm not being specific because I don't think in this situation I can be specific, but finding a purpose that's meaningful and then taking steps to manifest it, it are really two of the critical things and finding the king within shameless self publicity. Well, I mean, it is a bit shameless, but on the other hand, hopefully people who buy this would find something in it that will inspire them to change how they're living their lives, because ultimately this is what I wrote the book for. And again, just to emphasize the point, this is not about making some grandiose change and going out into the world as a person of great significance on a world country stage. This can start with yourself. And your own way of being in the world. And by that, you can change the family environment and social environment that you're in. And beyond that, you can, if you wish to, you can change things on a bigger scale. So it's about intention followed by action and purpose and meaning. Something that's fulfilling on a personal level, whatever that happens to be.

James: 1:01:33

What is it that you can, you offer people?

Rod: 1:01:37

I was practicing shadow work in group settings. I've stopped doing that now. I've stopped at time of COVID actually because obviously we couldn't do the groups in COVID and, haven't gone back to it because I've been training other people in that particular skillset because, the legacy of the King is, you Got to be something useful or it's not worth leaving behind and I'm saying that with a smile on my face because as I was saying that I was thinking of. Victorian industrialists who built these great monstrous country houses and monuments to their own grandiosity so that when they died everybody would remember them. it's like, we're not into that. We're about passing something on to the next generation, whatever that may be. Kindness, love, intelligence, knowledge, wisdom. So I think one of the things that I'd regard as my legacy is training other people. It's become quite important. It's become important to me. And so shadow work groups run by the people that I've trained and there are other organizations and they're very good too. I'm not we're not an exclusive. Healing the Shadow is our organization. There are other people out there who do the same thing. So if somebody is interested in this work, my encouragement would be go to Find a group workshop, and if you like what you experience there, which will be very safely held, then you can go further. Or, if the idea of group work doesn't appeal, then find an individual one to one facilitator. And sure, the experience will be different, but it can still be just as powerful as the group setting. And I know some people will find the idea of working in a group a bit scary, and that's quite understandable. So in both of the books, there are resources that will help people find The appropriate way to practice shadow work, if that's what they want to do. And just to conclude, James, there are other ways too, that are independent of group facilitation or one to one facilitation. And that's self facilitation. Set the intention to go on a journey of self discovery and self development. And what that might mean, for example, is try many different things. Join an organization like Toastmasters and learn the art of public speaking. One of the biggest fears I'm absolutely convinced is public speaking. It's extraordinary. I mean, I can see why it's so scary, but when I think about it as an abstract concept, it's like, why would that terrify people so much? Being seen to not be good enough, king wound, queen wound, and by doing those things. You can learn that you have more capacity than you ever imagined you would have. Go to a night school class if you have one. Pottery, if you don't fancy something intellectual. I suppose pottery is creative more than intellectual, I don't know. Art, music, it's something more intellectual. Literature, study of literature. But there are plenty of ways that people can develop their potential just by exploring what the world has to offer them in a non therapeutic setting. Join the local men's group, local men's shed and spend Saturday morning with your fellow men chatting about this, that and mending toasters or whatever it's doing for the community. That was actually one of the ways that I started out. I was doing therapy for sure. But I thought I needed to challenge myself on many different levels. And I took up parachuting, abseiling, and rock scrambling. And although it would be hard to explain just what effect they did have on me, they certainly had an impact. They ra Oh well actually, they raised my courage. They did indeed. They raised my courage. So that I could then do other things like start going to public speaking with more confidence. So everything that's developmental somehow meshes together to kind of really grow the person who's, who's got a motivation to grow. That's, I think that what it comes down to.

James: 1:06:17

Yeah, I can over the last, well, over my life, I've done so many different things. It just kind of links up. And there's no particular one thing which has helped me to heal. It's always been many, many, many different things. Thank you very much, Rod. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Straight back at you.