Unlocking Fatherhood: Secrets to a Stronger Connection with Your Kids

About Ori Latter

Ori Latter is a transformational coach and men’s group facilitator who helps men reclaim the part of themselves they’ve hidden behind success. He works with leaders, founders, and fathers who look strong on the outside—but feel quietly lost, numb, or disconnected within. Through intuitive 1:1 coaching, emotionally honest group work, and deep listening, Ori guides men back to their truth—not by fixing them, but by helping them remember who they really are.

Links: 

www.orilatter.co.uk 

FB & IG @orilatter

Transcript

0:00

In this week's episode, we talk about everything to do with fatherhood, how it's super important. The hold space, not just for your child, but for yourself too. How presence over perfection is what your child needs, and how playfulness can be both your healer and the key to abundance of joy. Welcome to Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men navigate modern life, find their true purpose, and redefine manhood. I'm your host, James, and each week, inspiring guests share their journeys of overcoming fear Embracing vulnerability and finding success. From experts to everyday heroes. Get practical advice and powerful insights. Struggling with career, relationships or personal growth? We've got you covered. Join us on Man Quest to Find Meaning. Now, let's dive in.

James: 1:02

I believe we all come into this world carrying a timeless light. Our spirit, when we connected to it, we feel alive and at home in ourselves, and when we lose touch with it, we feel lost, disconnected, and separated. Fatherhood has been a journey of remembering that light in my daughter, but also in myself. It's from that place that I find the tools to parent her and to reparent the parts of me that is still needs care. I honestly believe that our role as parents is to protect that flame, to let it shine brightly in our children and to do all our own inner work so we don't dim it with our own fears or projections. Good morning, Ori. How are you?

Ori: 1:52

Good morning, James. I'm really good. Thank you.

James: 1:55

Can you tell me more from that statement?

Ori: 2:04

The statement really is the, uh, the essence of what I do, what I believe in the way that I live, the way that I see, uh, God or light or something in whoever's in front of me and the people that I work with. I believe that we all come into this world with some kind of light, some purity. Nobody comes into this world with any baggage of, uh, shame, of not enough of any kind of guilt of anything that's wrong. All those stories are stories that we take on. These are stories that are given to us, and those stories reshape us, and I think that as parents, our role is to. Protect our kids as much as possible. It's impossible to keep them, uh, completely pure. Because this world is not, is not pure. But, uh, it's important to protect them and maintain that light. Keep that, remind them, that remind the kids that that light is in them and they are light, and that light will always stay with them. That is the essence of, uh, of what I do. And it's a, it's a reminder to myself that, uh, I cannot dump my baggage and my, or everything that I've accumulated throughout life onto my daughter.'cause you know, like I said, she is, she didn't do anything to deserve that. That's, uh, that's the essence of it.

James: 3:43

Yes. You see it. Because I think as adults we go for our own experiences as kids, and we take on a lot of what our parents have. And I think it's never been a time when we understand so much where we can actually impact and remove these projections and baggage from not just our parents, but from our lineage, from our ancestors, from from, from the, for the whole world. And I think you're right, it's about we've, we've got to do the work. We've got to look inside ourselves to really find our own light internally. And then once we find our, our own light, internally, shine it on the parts of ourselves, which we might be struggling with. And within them parts that we might be struggling with. We can befriend it, we can, um, accept it as ourselves, and then we can embrace it. And then when we start to embrace it, we start to shine. Like there's no, no shining

Ori: 4:58

spot on. You know, the, it, it is the, these moments when, when I work with men that you see that slowly they're starting to believe that I am lovable, I am good enough, I am beautiful, I am worthy. And to start coming back, to start coming back to self and to actually see those, all those messages, all those labels, all that weight, heavy, heavy weight and burdens that have been put onto us that we've been carrying. Again, it's not just our parents, it's society. It's society as a whole. We look around and kids, kids grow up. And they're looking at these, you know, demigods in the form of, you know, footballers, in the models, in the, you know, uh, TV actors, whatnot. And they, and a lot of the time we feel I'll never be that. I don't have what they, I don't have what they have. So, coming back to this idea that I am, I am something, I, I'm a child of God, I am pure. And all those stories that I've taken on throughout the years that have been labels, that have been given me are not mine. So learning to give those labels back is the, is the journey.

James: 6:16

Yes. It's owning not just our shadows, but also owning our light. Because you're right, I think I've seen it. It, um. Pop star concerts and football stadiums where they literally, you said they worship, they see the parts of themselves in that other person, but they don't actually see it, if you know what I mean. So if they don't actually own it, so giving an example, you might see a, uh, a rock star playing amazingly on stage and you are there like, he's so electric. It's then being able to own that electric part of ourselves, like that part of ourselves, like that, that's kind of thing. And I think that's, that's the key. It's not us owning our shadows, it's owning our light. And when we own our light, it's like, you see, you might see a actress who's really confident. We said, I'm, I can never be that confident, but you can. And it's pulling that back, bringing it back to ourselves and owning that confidence within ourself.

Ori: 7:28

I love that. I love the way, I love the way you described that. Yeah. Owning the gold. Absolutely.

James: 7:35

So let's start off, can you tell us about yourself?

Ori: 7:41

So, I'm originally from Israel. I. Uh, lived in many places around the world. Spent, uh, spent quite a few years in, uh, in Bali, in Australia, in Thailand, uh, before coming back to the uk I moved to the UK historically in, uh, in 2003 and, and got into the world of men's work in 2012 through the Amazing Mankind Project. And that initiation kind of led me into much deeper work of, uh, just exploring, exploring who I am as a man, starting to, uh, look at the shadow within me and questioning what kind of man do I wanna be in this world. In 2014, I was blessed to become a dad, and that was a game changer for me. Nothing. Nothing prepared me for that. And that's been an amazing journey that I've been on, uh, recently, well, not so recently anymore, but I've been, uh, I've been, uh, a therapist and a coach for men, um, men who are often very successful and strong on the outside, but feel a sense of emptiness and feel like something's missing on the inside. Men who might be in, uh, good relationships, good marriages, I should say, and they're working their asses off and still a, a feeling of like, there's something missing. This is not this. I'm not who I'm meant to be in a sense. So helping men come back home, helping men reconnect with that light, helping, uh, men heal themselves, if you will.

James: 9:29

So we did chat before we came on live, and you wanted to talk about. Being a father, being a single father, and how that has shaped you to become the parent you are. So tell me, tell me more about that.

Ori: 9:51

Yeah, so relationships don't always work out the way we'd like them to, or we envision in the beginning, and when I started this journey of becoming a dad and becoming as the, as the operating word here, because we don't become mothers, we don't become dads. The day that, you know, kids get handed to us, we become one. It's something that we, that grows, that we grow into. And as I said, you know, the relationship never really lived up to the potential that it had. And when my daughter was about five, we came back to the uk. We were living in Australia before then. And I realized that, uh, I, in the relationship, in the dynamic between us, I'm the one who actually brings in the sense of security, the sense of stability, the sense of, uh, consistency in, um, in, in the parenting. So I took on the role of taking my daughter full-time. This was a role that, this was something I didn't quite know what I was going into. I said, yes, I can do this. I just wanted to be able, because we were traveling a lot, we're moving around a lot, living this kind of very Instagrammable life before. But I really wanted to give my, my daughter, uh, just plant some roots and stay, stay in one place. I had this very strong feeling that she, she wants her own bedroom and she wants, uh, to have her toys long-term because again, we were moving a lot before. And, um, I stepped into this role not knowing what I'm going into. Uh, just saying, yeah, I can do, I, can I, I'll, I'll figure it out. And mom is in the picture, of course, the whole time. But I was the one that started making all the decisions and all the, uh, providing the child with the safety and security that, uh, that she needed at the time and still needs to this day. So this role of becoming a father is, like I said, is becoming, it's not the, the, the father that I was five years ago is not the father that I'm now, I see the world very differently. I see myself and my, my purpose differently in this, on this journey. And it just gets, it just keeps getting better and better because the relationship between my daughter is, uh, is one that I could only dream of in terms of the, the synchronicity between us. We happen to be born on the same day as well. We share a birthday. So there's a lot of synchronicity in the way that we, um, that we act and behave. And it's, uh. It's become the biggest gift. It's become a huge, it's become a huge part of my identity, I should say, being, uh, being a dad.

James: 12:42

So it's, it's hard for me to relate because I've, I've literally, I've got no children at its moment in time. But how has becoming a father really shaped you to who you've become?

Ori: 13:01

So, being a parent, as every parent will know, is so much more than just the mundane, everyday acts of, um, you know, getting up in the morning, making breakfast, making sure that all the logistics are, are working. That's just the, that's just the, the very basic of just making sure that, you know, things are prepared. And the child has everything they need on a day-to-day basis, to, to live life in a, in a safe, secure way, in a way that, where they know that they don't need to worry about anything. That's the, that that's a given. And that, and, and then you from the start of that is something that I, that I'm bringing with me. But where the change, really, where the change really happens is in the way that I relate to her and her stories and what she's not sewing and what she's not saying. How I attune my, how I learn to attune myself to what's happening in her world. So to really sense, to really heighten my senses, which is something I didn't have before to acutely understand what she's experiencing. What she needs that she's not saying. Kids do not say what they need. You can ask them a hundred times and it's, you still, you'll never really get a clear understanding of how they're feeling or what they need by purely asking them straight, simple questions. So it's really understanding acute, like attuning is the, is the key word here, to really see what's, what's under the surface and what am I, and how am I showing up in the world? How is my shit impacting her? How is my nervous system impacting her, and what do I need to do to keep that away from her? She does not need that. This is my stuff. So how can I create a space within myself to hold her and hold space for her, for everything that comes up for her without me being reactive, without me? Um, just. Going from a place of, uh, responding to her from a place of fight or flight or not enough coffee. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's the essence of it.

James: 15:16

Super important because, uh, last week I was having a discussion with this lady about relationships and how men holds have to men being able to hold space for women for them to allow whatever needs to come up to come up. So, how do you personally go, Bri, you know, how do you hold space for your child?

Ori: 15:50

I hold space for, for her name's Mika, and I hold space for Mika, first and foremost by holding space for myself. So every parent will. We'll know that if we do not put the oxygen, oxygen mask on ourselves first, we cannot hold space or be there for anyone else. So, learning to look after myself first, and this is not something that I knew, I definitely did not know this, you know, when I, when I first became a dad, and it took me many years to realize that, uh, taking on more than I can handle will backfire. So, holding space for my daughter is in the form of, you know, picking her up from school or today she's at camp, but picking her up, picking her up, and showing deep interest for what's happening, what's happening in her, what happened in that day, not just the dry logistical questions of how was your day? What did you have for lunch? What's underneath that? What are the, you know, what are the little dynamics and make space, understand her rhythm. And that's a big one. Understand her rhythm of the day, when she wants to share, when she wants to express herself more. And anticipating friction. Anticipating where, where I might present a boundary that she might not, uh, that she might not flow with. And be okay with that. And also question, how do I, how much am I attached to that, to that boundary, to that, uh, you know, laying down, laying down strict rules? Is that really serving? Is that really serving my needs or her needs?

James: 17:41

Yeah. Uh, just a couple of things there. Firstly, you had mentioned about. Giving yourself space first and foremost. And that's so important. Whether you're in a relationship with your child, a relationship with your, um, partner, relationship with your parents or other, other people. It's us first. And I think sometimes we can get into the habit of giving our energy away to everybody else except ourselves. And I think I can see, you can see that so much when people get run down and people get into, um, de depressed, stressed, and it's realizing that it's, at this moment in time we're most important. But then there comes our daughter, becomes our wife, and once we know that we can protect, it's about really feeding ourselves first. We can then give that to everybody else because we, for. And then they become four. But then also you mentioned about understanding your daughter's knee, but underneath now that becomes, that's for, for the men out there, that's quite a complicated thing. And I think it's, we get communication. It's communication. It's, but it's also being able to attune to their energy and our own energy. And it's about building this trust within ourself, first and foremost. And once you start to build this trust within, within ourselves, then we can start to sink in to other people. So I'm, I, I, I must admit, I am very good at sinking into people and what they're thinking and that kind of thing. But for the everyday man, how can they start to build these skills?

Ori: 19:33

Great insights, James. I like that. You know, it really comes down to. The, the basics or the basics of sort of mindfulness and slowing down and allowing ourselves to listen and to, to listen and feel ourself first. So are you, do you, do you give yourself enough time to, to meditate, to you make space for those kind of things? It doesn't have to be, you know, proper just sitting down, you know, closing your eyes. It can be just a quiet walk, a quiet walk in nature. Just listen to the trees. Just listen to the, to your own breath, anything which allows you to slow down, let things up, come up to the surface and notice what's coming in inside. And that is the, that these are the fundamentals of building a, building, any kind of emotional inter intelligence where you can then be attuned to other people. And it's hard for the dads out there who don't see their kids often enough, who are separated from them. Uh, it's hard for anyone who does not, who is not in a space where they. Get to do the, may, may, they might not even feel safe to do those kind of things in, in certain relationships, but it really comes down to allowing ourself to do that. Some people have not been ever, ever been allowed to do that. And I mean that, I genuinely mean. It's not, it's never, for some people, it's never felt safe to slow down and listen because of what might come up. It's, it can be scary for a lot of people. So in, in a, in a typical coercive, uh, family, family home where the kids are being shut down when the kids are being constantly being given activities, being told, okay. Right. You've gotta, you've, you've got, you know, after school, another, another club, another maths lesson, lesson, another something to do. The kids can never feel themselves. And that is a, that's a fascinating, that's a subconscious way of the parents just like preventing their kids from ever. Growing internally because the parents cannot, cannot bear to feel what's happening for them. It's too much. So you'd rather, you know, pile on more and more activities. Some of them can be even positive ones, you know, constantly taking kids to, to activities. So they run around so they're not fully, so they're not internalizing what's happening for them. But, uh, the fear, you know, kids have a fear of being bored and parents have a, an even bigger fear of the kids being bored because, oh my God, what might happen if the kids are bored? I've got to, I will have to hold that. So bored in our societies become a, you know, a big no-no.

James: 22:13

I can relate usually to boredom. I, so I'm obsessed in personal spiritual development, which is a good obsession to have. But what I do find is sometimes I get bored doing certain things and when I get bored doing certain things. I allow addictions, like social media, like, um, yeah, like social media to get to come into the forefront. So rather than being bored, I'm always like, you see yourself on the screens or watching films and yeah, you're right. Boredoms almost being seen as, as the enemy. Don't get bored. Don't get bored. Just do, keep doing something. Go for a walk or, you know, go, go on a screen. Keep yourself occupied.

Ori: 23:05

My dad, James, my, my, my late dad had a, uh, wooden plaque in his, uh, in his study and it said, don't just sit there, worry. And that is the essence of, you know, don't just sit there, do nothing. You've got to always keep yourself occupied. Just don't, yeah. We need to just, we do need to learn to sit down and do nothing again.

James: 23:26

That's it. Um, one thing I did good at, good at doing is going internally in my side myself and speaking to the parts. So I am very good at like boredom comes up. I'll be able to have a conversation, what does that boredom actually want? But then it's also actually breathing through that discomfort. So when you breathe, I find when I breathe through the discomfort, you always find something good at the other side.

Ori: 23:56

Absolutely a hundred percent.'cause you're, you, you, you're making space. And that's the, that's the one thing we all crave for is more, you know, more expansion, more space, more space. You know, in other word for it is abundance to just like, having, believing that there is more.'cause we're so many of us are conditioned to, you know, there's not enough, we are not enough, there is not enough time. We're waking up and there's like, everything is not enough. So when we breathe into that space, we're reminded that there is more. And the feeling that there is more where, you know, this is like the universe is expanding where humans are, you know, contracting. So, yeah, big one.

James: 24:32

Well, this idea that we, we want to, sometimes people have big, big dreams. They wanna go out into the world, they want to achieve this, they wanna achieve that, but they don't allow the space for their ideas or for the inspiration to come in. And this is, this is what kind of space does for us. It gives us the inspiration, gives us ideas. It allows us to just breathe into the parts ourselves, which have been neglected, which they can be our diamonds, they can be our gold. And it's within these parts that we can quite often find our purpose.

Ori: 25:16

Well done.

James: 25:18

And just so we're clear, this as well, I wanted to mention, I wanted to talk about safety. So you mentioned that some people don't feel safe enough who have the space to become mindful to meditate. So how can people start to create that safety in themselves? So obviously, I'll give you an example. So, um, um. To explicit is a podcast about men or talk about men. There might be this man, this a person who, um, struggle is always keeping himself occupied by different things. He doesn't feel safe being bored. He doesn't feel safe, basically doing nothing. How can he start to make himself? How can he start to feel a little bit more safer so that he can perhaps spend one or two minutes in silence or doing more mindful techniques?

Ori: 26:20

First of all, let's address the word safety for a second. Most people don't use that word. It's, that's a, that's more of a therapeutic word. What people will actually say is that, oh no, I'm too busy. I've, I've got, I've got stuff to do. You know, there, there's always something on the to-do list, and if you look underneath that, you'll, you'll realize that, you know, I need to, I need to feel safe enough to know that there will be more time, or that there will be more. Um, opportunities will come, you know, I don't wanna miss that opportunity. So the, when we, what most people are addressing is the scarcity rather than the abundance of actually allowing yourself to just allowing yourself to chill. Allowing yourself to go for a walk in nature. Allowing yourself to close your eyes when you need to. You don't need another coffee. You don't need the more stimulants, you don't need to distract yourself with, uh, social media, shopping, porn work, anything. Just what if you just sat there and allowed yourself to do something that, you know, even a good old hobby, in the sense, a hobby that does not require any, any kind of, uh, dopamine or ex excitement, you know, good old carpentry or so gardening. Gardening is, gardening is meditative. You know, go fishing, that's meditative. Go paint something that's meditative. That's a, any space that kind of allows you to just slow down and go into some gentle, uh, flow state. Great. Find what's, find what's right for you. I think this, you know, maybe safety is not the right w word to think of. It is like, just allow yourself to be you. Come back, come back to self and this is the best you want to, you want to do something good for your, for your kids. Do something good for yourself, and that's the, you know, that, that should be the biggest thing ever. Allow yourself to go away. You know, so often I'll reach out to friends and I say friends who are dads, and I would say, Hey, let's go for a hike on the weekend. Oh, no, we've got, we've gotta, we've gotta do something with the kids. We know we're taking them to some something and another trampoline park. And you're thinking, for fuck's sake, man, do something for yourself. Let yourself unwind. Let yourself recharge. Find some kind of like mini retreat or something for a few hours. Spend time with your, with your mates not drinking, just. Chilling. Just being, being among people who, who don't need anything from you.

James: 28:46

How has fatherhood really evolved in your life and how, and, and I'm interested as well,'cause with the men that you coach, have you seen the fatherhood evolve inside themselves?

Ori: 29:02

Oh, massively. Massively. Because when men, let's just talk for about the clients for a second, because the men who allow themselves to process the, uh, process, their wounds, their traumas, will allow themselves to, uh, move, shift some energy within. They show up as better, as better parents. There's so much lightness there. That doesn't mean, you know, men are so often being seen as rigid or tough among kids. Mostly because they're carrying, they're carrying, you know, wounds of being told off and being maybe beaten up as kids. So, and the fear of, you know, so many men carry new, new dads, carry the fear of doing something wrong. You know, oh, be careful. Don't do that. You know, that's, you know, being constantly being told off that something might happen. So many to first and foremost need to be give, given the space to grow internally and just learn things their way. They do things differently from the moms, and that's fine. There's no, um, you can, you, we can, we can, you know, talk about forever, about the right way to do something, the wrong way to do something. But ultimately, men, the men I've worked with who were given a chance to process stuff internally to talk about their very challenging childhood experiences or, or burdens in the inner, the relationship. We're able to show up better to their, uh, to their kids. But first and foremost themselves, you know, this is a very selfish, you know, we can talk about, you know, parenting has the, has the, obviously has the biggest sort of side, which is of being in service. But it has to first and foremost come from a selfish place where I am the good selfish, where I'm really, first of all nurturing myself so I can nurture my kids and my, and my wife, my family. As for me, like I said, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing journey. And I see I'm able to have, she's 10, my daughter is 10, and I'm, I'm able to share certain things about my life and I'll be a, I'll give you a great example for something that, uh, evolved during probably the hardest phase for me as a dad. And it's a bit of a cliche. Because it's Covid. And Covid started off okay. I was like, great. More time at home with my daughter. You know, we can go on walks, we can just, uh, spend more time playing and doing the things we, we enjoy. But as time went on and on and on this accumulated, I realized I'm not looking after myself. I don't have time to, because I had to be with her. I could not leave her. She was too young to be left at home. So I did not get a moment to, uh, meditate or get a moment to just listen, to put the, even, you know, something simple as just putting on my music at home because she would want to listen to her, you know, an audiobook or something. That's, uh, back then there was, there were kids were watching also of YouTube stuff on YouTube. Uh, so basically not being able to look after myself back then. And I remember she was quite young and I was, I remember snapping at her and. She noticed because she was spending more and more time with me, she could see how important this, this idea of meditating is. Meditating is simple as I don't want to, you know, dramatize it too much, but really the sense of just closing your eyes, connecting with your breath, and just giving herself a few minutes on your own simple stuff. And I remember her saying, if after I snapped at her, she said, dad, you, you didn't meditate today, did you? No, I didn't. I didn't, didn't get a chance. And without passing, with, without passing the, uh, the blame onto her and without, uh, without her feeling like it's her that was preventing me from looking after myself, it was a good reminder. And she could see that I need to look after myself. And kids need to see that. Kids need to know that parents do need to look after themselves. It's essential because so often parents, I. Uh, both moms and dads do stuff for themselves away from their kids, and the kids don't know that mom and dad need to recharge. They're not seen as, you know, as, uh, they're seen as, you know, superheroes. They don't need to recharge. They can. They're always, they're always on. Yeah. So, uh, she saw that. And the biggest one, James, you know, being able to apologize to my daughter and saying to her after snapping at her, I'm deep. I'm, I'm genuinely sorry for that. That's not yours. That's mine. Obviously, in, in, in language, inappropriate language. What you did may have not been the best. You know, you shouldn't have done that thing you did. But the way I reacted, the way I responded is me, is my shit. I should not have done that. And this comes back to the fundamentals of all relationships, especially, you know, among couples and friendships. Even, you know, the notion of tear and repair. So a fracture happened. The sooner we heal it, the quicker it will heal. So this notion of this idea that, you know, me as a dad and all parents should do this, is learn to apologize quickly to your kids. They may have done something wrong, but it's you who chose to snap. It's you who chose to go into, you know, some, uh, to catastrophizing space of like, you know, fight or flight. How you respond to the kids is the absolute fundamentals of creating a space environment for your kid to be themselves. I can still be, I can still, I can still have a very harsh, uh, you know, boundary and say, what you're doing is unacceptable, but I did not need to lose my shit. And if I do, I've gotta apologize for it.

James: 35:33

Mm-hmm. I love the way your daughter actually realized what you needed in that moment. It's almost like she, and I think what you are saying with regards to they need to see you recharging yourself, they almost see it. That's a boundary. They see you recharging yourself. So they know that basically if daddy is recharged and meditative, then he's, he's gonna be good. But at the same time, you putting that down yourself and saying, I just need five minutes or three minutes to sit down and to breathe. Can I have that time? It's almost showing them how to create boundaries.

Ori: 36:22

It's also showing them how to look after themselves. Yeah. It's also showing them that, you know, when they're, wherever they are, you know, at school, uh, anywhere they go, if things are not working the way they need them to work, just go away. Just get some space. You don't need to stay in the, you don't need to stay in that friction in that fight. Just walk away, look after yourself, breathe and come back. So back in those, you know, lockdown days, the need to go out for a walk in nature was fundamental, was the, uh, was, you know, it was non-negotiable in a way, and it stuck with that. Well, my daughter still knows to this day that you know me. We have some of our best bonding and our best connection on walks, and she sees that. She sees the state that I'm, I. I'm in, I'll, I'm not on my phone, I'm just with her in nature. I'm present. And that's all kids want, want parents to be. That's their, if there's one thing, one word that the kids want is their parents to be present because kids are, kids are present, they're reacting. Young kids especially, uh, they're very, very present. Everything that's happening is like in the, in the moment. If something goes wrong, they react, they respond, you know, immediately. So one of the things, you know, again, back to what I realized back in the, uh, in those early days of, uh, single parenting, is how challenging I found it to get to her, to, uh, to the highs that she had. She's very, she's a very joyful, exuberant little person. And sitting with my, the, the pains, the challenges, the, the madness of, you know, back in lockdown days, for example, and the, and the weight that it had on me, it was quite depressive. There's no other word, you know, way to describe it. And Covid was not the only time that I felt, you know, you know, some, some kind of sense of, uh, of heaviness of, you know, depression and to be there, to be present and to be there for my child when her energy, Eva abrasions are so high and, you know, pure god-like, and I'm bringing this weight, this heavy, heavy weight with me. That's been, that's been definitely been the hardest. That's been the challenge. Biggest I. Sort of challenge for me as, um, in my parenting and the way that I've learned to handle it is by, again, going back to coming back to myself, to finding some kind of, uh, compassion and love for myself, and accepting where I'm at. I cannot be where she is and I don't need to feel bad because she's so, because her energy's so high and my energy's so low, and another coffee will not, you know, will not resolve. That really is, it's within me. I'm sitting with something and I've got to resolve that. But finding, finding some, some kind of love and compassion for myself and the state that I'm in would ultimately shine back on her.

James: 39:35

So for those men out there who perhaps struggle with love and compassion for themselves. How can they really, what, what's the first or couple of first step they can start to take to'cause you, you are me. You are mentioning about how during lockdown, there's times when you got frustrated and depressed or stressed, shall I say? And this is probably quite a common thing, especially when you are in a space and there's no escape. So for the men, all, all women out there who might struggle, when it comes to really loving these parts of themselves, how can they start to navigate that?

Ori: 40:29

It's a journey. It really is a journey. And it starts with, with the smallest things, find, find small things about yourself that you do appreciate, that you do. Like write them down. No. It really, it's, it's simple as that. I mean, I say simple. It really, it requires some kind of, it requires some kind of work. As you know, this, this whole, this whole journey is work. So sit down, write it yourself. If you feel comfortable enough to even put it on a post-it note in a place where you can see and remind yourself some beautiful attribute about yourself that you do like, that you do appreciate, that you are something that you can connect, you can connect with. For one person, it'll be the fact that they've got a, maybe a big loving heart for another person. It might be that they're generous, another person. It might be that they're, anything that's, that they feel good about. Start small and, and, and build it up. I mean, I'm feeling, I'm, and knowing what's been very helpful for me, James, is going back, is remembering I. Where did things start? Go pear shaped for me. You know, like, like we established earlier, I was not born, uh, I was not born like I am now. So at some state in my life I was, you know, much more. I carried a much bigger light, I carried much more, had my daughter's kind of exuberance and excitement. And then somebody poured lots of people and, you know, society poured, um, poured water over that and diminished, and that light started to diminish. So I started as I learned, well, I cannot be this and I cannot be that, and I'm not allowed to say certain things and I've got to, I've gotta please and people will like me if I show up one way and not another way. So I could not be my full self. So if you wanna start, learn how to show some compassion to yourself, maybe go back to that little boy, that little girl who actually did have a much bigger light and connect with that. That's been, that's been, I know that it's been very, very helpful for me because, because it's a lot easier having empathy and compassion for a young being. You know, you see a puppy, you see a baby, you see something, something vulnerable, small and vulnerable. It's a lot easier to connect with that. And that being is in us. He, she, you know, that younger part in ourselves is still there. Go back to it anytime you want to. That little boy did not mean to do something wrong. He was told that he did something wrong and he was told off and he was shamed and he was made to feel like, you know, that version of him is unacceptable. And if you carry on the way that you do, you'll never get to anywhere in life. So maybe that, maybe that little boy didn't, never, never had to hear those words and. He needs healing.

James: 43:36

Yeah, that brings in quite nicely. I've mentioned it a few times in a child healing on this podcast, and I think it's, it's so important because quite often our actual traumas start when we're very young, and it's being able to allow ourselves to start on the journey of healing that inner child. But also what I ripped down here is playfulness. You know, I, I, I, playfulness is one of my biggest values, the third biggest, yet I feel I've been feeling seriously blocked around it. What I've come to realize is it's just doing something silly, like, go back here on this podcast. Now, in this moment, that is silly, but it's playful and that's the kind of stuff that the inner child loves to do. Inner moment, silly, um, just crazy stuff. And, and I don't mean jumping up a plane and things like that, but it's more running around just doing what makes you feel good, going into nature, doing some artwork. It could be, um, climbing trees, building dens. I remember as a child, love to do that. Just by going into this inner child and this playfulness, we start to bring ourselves back into, I feel back into your childhood, which then brings us, which then I think, and obviously I've got no child to relate this to by saying, I've got a nephew, you can then relate to the child more easier.

Ori: 45:23

I love that. I love that so much. You know, we'll learn so much through play. Kids especially, you know, as parents so often say, stop playing, stop messing around, stop playing. What the fuck are you doing? I mean, that is there. The, in these moments, kids learn more than any, more than any other time. I mean, these are the moments that kids do not need to activate. They need to memorize things as they sit and do in school, sit and remember things. This, these are the moments where they actually embody their, their whole bodies learn, experiencing something. And joy, which is a byproduct of playfulness, is, is a gateway motion to our sovereign. So for us to stand up and be in our healthy, in our healthy kings and our healthy queens, we need to connect with joy. And you can, you can only imagine, you can only sort of visualize older, sort of older people who are being silly and they, they, they've got nothing to prove. And, and it's funny because they don't need to, they no longer need to be in the roles they carry their whole lives, and they can just be, you know, old and mumbling and silly. And it's funny and it's beautiful. And that is, you know, like I said, a gateway emotion to that, to that space of, um, how should I call this? A space of clarity and sovereignty. But yes, place, and it's a, we do, we, I spend, I. One of the things that, you know, it's, it is not always easy'cause I'm not al not always in the mood. And my daughter will say, Hey, come and come and play with me. And we'll start with something that's just very banal. Maybe play Uno or something that does not require too much playfulness, but that often gets carried into something much. We start, you know, teasing each other and that leads to something else and it starts, the playfulness grows. But absolutely, I'm with you, with you on that.

James: 47:27

Mm-hmm. And so it's, it's exploring it ourselves, isn't it, first and foremost. And then we can instigate it into the world. Definitely. We, we discussion beforehand how when you've got two parents who are separated, it's more than likely it's gonna be the mother who takes the child. So what do you feel is missing in how men are seen or supported?

Ori: 47:58

It's a painful one, James. It's a very, very painful one because the way that our system is set up is one that in most cases, in a very arbitrary way, uh, courts will give the mom full custody and the dads will get to see their kids once a week, every other week. And it's criminal. It's absolutely criminal. You are, you are turning the dads into some pariah that is, uh, relegated and demoted to a figure, some distant figure in their lives. He's no longer, he's no longer able to embody being a father. He becomes some kind of, you know, some guardian, some someone who comes and sees them on the weekend. And it's tragic. There's, um, I would say in these cases, do whatever you can to find some kind of mediation, some kind of sensemaking where kids, where the parents are not fighting over who gets to have the kid. It's not important. Really what The only thing that's important, the only thing that's important is that the children experiencing having as much of dad and as much of mom as possible, and both parents need to remember that commitment they made when they decided to have the kids. And you say that a, you know, a puppy is not for Christmas and nor are kids. It's, uh, kids are for life. This is a journey that you've got to be there. I mean, it sounds so dumb saying it, but it is. You really, you, you, you've committed to something. You've brought life into this world and you are given an opportunity here. This is, this is the biggest gift life gives us to pass something on to the next generation and to shape and to help shape the next, next generation. I'm not fond of the word raising children. I'm, I prefer, you know, holding space for them. So you've given this opportunity to hold space and care and watch someone grow and give them the, you know, the nourishment and the, uh, nutrition they need to become their full selves. There's nothing more for me, at least, there's nothing more gratifying. And I would just say, yeah, just do what you need to do. So both mom and dad can be in the picture and each one can share their, their good, their gold with the, with the kids. Dads are needed. James. It's not, it's not even a, it's not even a question. I mean, we know this and we see this, uh, in statistics in the, we see how absent in homes where there's an absent dad, we see. Higher. We see kids, uh, falling in education. We see kids falling into a lot more into crime, and yeah, dad's are needed. It's a given.

James: 50:52

So, uh, so regards to your clients or people you know, who perhaps are single parents, how, how has that impacted the child?

Ori: 51:05

Not having a dad, you mean?

James: 51:07

Yeah, I mean a dad, and I suppose in your case it's the, it is the other way around, isn't it? You might, you might notice how, how has it impacted the child as a whole?

Ori: 51:21

We know that a child needs a, at least one parent to be there for them and wholeheartedly hold space for them. We need at least kids need at least one parent to really be there to create some, a safe, uh, some kind of safe attachment where the child knows that they can be their full selves and they can develop and express their full selves and be be loved no matter what. In homes where I'll, I'll, I'll just talk about my, talk about sort of my, uh, my clients where, where client, where I need to be careful here. I need to be careful with the language, uh, that I'm using here. Just don't want to, I just don't, don't wanna give away any, any identities, but kids suffer. Let's, let's just put it, put it plainly. Kids suffer. Kids need, deeply need both mom and dad's presence and. When the, when they're not there or when the kids feel like mom and dad are fighting over them or being are belittling each other, the kids feel it and the kids start to have the kids start leaning in one in one way. And it's sad. It's not, it's not healthy for anyone.

James: 52:40

That brings in quite nicely to the, the balance of masculine and feminine. If you have just your mother, then the child's gonna, i i is this, is this right? In thinking the child's gonna be more swayed towards the feminine energy, depending on that person. And then obviously for most men. So if you think about it with the, with the child, if, if she's being brought up in a very feminine environment, they might be more as they call it in men, the nice guys, is this right? Yeah. And I. And then on the opposite end, they can probably, they've been up in a, in a very masculine, masculine environment, it can have the impact of, um, maybe the alpha male. Is that right?

Ori: 53:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Ultimately, when a child is being, when a child is being exposed, uh, to very much too, too much or too little of either of either one, they will naturally lean to lean, to take on those, take on those traits. And we see, see this in homes, you know, when there's, where fathers are, where fathers are absent, and there's a, there's some, there's some kind of belittling towards, uh, mothers talking down, talking badly, I should say, uh, towards, uh, towards their ex-husbands. The, the kids take, the kids take on, take that, take that on. And they, you know, they carry that on throughout lives. And you and I have seen this in the Mankind Project with, uh, men who. Men who carry this wound of growing up, of growing up without, without a dad. I'll, I'll tell you, I'll talk about myself for a, for a moment. So I grew up, my dad passed away when I was 12 and before, before then, he was sick for many years. So I grew up in a, in a household. There was very, there was extremely, um, feminine, I should say, and not, not in the, not necessarily in the healthiest possible way. Dad was, dad was unwell and was unable to show up as a healthy, in his healthy masculine. So I didn't particularly, I didn't absorb, I didn't absorb strong, I didn't have the stronger boundaries and discipline and the things that you'd want a dad therefore, to balance, I should say, to balance, uh, the mother. And what I saw is a very. What we call a crumbling king, a king who felt he's not enough, a king. He who felt he's, he's, he's unable to provide and carrying a lot of shame around that. And that's the kind of, that's the kind of father I grew up with. That was, and you know, looking back it was very hard, but looking back, it's be, it's made me the man, it's made me the man I am today because I've learned to, I've, I've learned to integrate that and make sense of that, of that experience. He passed away when I was 12 and I continued to integrate through the grief of not having him, I continued to integrate the absence of the masculine. It definitely affected and impacted the way that I showed up in, uh, in my, in my male groups. And I never needed to be. And, you know, I never need, felt like I needed to be some kind of alpha male, but I did need to prove myself. So to make a long, to make a long story short, it's, uh, if we, if ultimately we can integrate whatever wounds, whatever, whatever life gives us, if we do the healing, if we, if we process it at some point in life and make the most of it, there's a gift in all of it.

James: 56:34

Mm. Yeah. Nicely, nicely put. Um, so with regards to you and your daughter, how, how did you start to start to integrate more feminine traits or so in more feminine energy with regards to your daughter? Because obviously you were saying earlier that you've taken, you are there majority of the time, but it's kind of the idea that with being a man. How can you personally start to help her to embrace her feminine side a bit more so it becomes a bit more balanced

Ori: 57:17

just by being there? So the feminine energy is a feminine, is an energy of just holding space. Is an energy of, is an energy of flow, is an energy of acceptance, is an energy of nurturing. All those things are happening all the time. It's not for me. I've had to, you know, I'm finding a healthy balance between the two, between the setting, between the masculine side, which is the we setting boundaries and the providing, protecting and providing security and the nurturing side of just holding whatever's there. You know, the masculine side is the side of doing, the masculine side is the side of looking after the logistics and making breakfast and dinner and make, doing the shopping and paying bills and cleaning here. That's the masculine, the feminine side is the side is the side that sits with her that just listens. It's the side that just, uh. It is the side that is a part that's in, in me as well. You know, I wanna sit and cuddle her. I wanna sit and read books with her. I wanna sit and spend time with her. It's for me. I mean, this is something that's, uh, and to some degree, that's the joy. That's the fun. These are the fun moments of, of, of parenting. You know, leaning into that. Leaning into the, into that side. Yes. There's a lot of doing, and we, we tick a lot of boxes of going places and traveling and doing things. That's fun. But within those moments, it's actually, they're just the wondering in nature, or just playing a game of just getting lost. Mm. Which are, which are the moments I remember. And they'll re

James: 58:48

Yeah.

Ori: 58:49

That, that she takes in. That's the, that's the feminine side.

James: 58:55

I, I can feel that. I love that. I love the. The, the exploring, the, the surrendering and the, the sense of allowing, it's, I've just done, I'm doing this money membership thing, and they talk about masculine and feminine. And the masculine side is the, the action doing it is the doing to create the money. It's the planning, it's the, it's the, the action, bang, bang, bang, bang. But in order to have all this action and bringing in money, people forget about the receiving, the surrendering, the ability to, uh, to relax. So you, you, you action whatever you need to action. Then you relax and you do the action. You relax and we forget we're, we're in this society of doing, doing, doing. And so there's this idea that. Just surrendering is so, such a nice thing to do. And it's, it's hard. It's, it is hard because I've been brought up this mentality I've got to do, do, do to make, um, to create a business, to, to achieve stuff. But that surrendering and learning to surrender is a whole new level of acceptance.

Ori: 1:00:12

I'll give you an example. I love that. And I'll give you an example you reminded me of. So she's very creative, sits and draws a lot, and in that surrendering is making the mistakes, is learning to accept the mistakes that she makes when she's, when she'll work on a piece for a very, very long time. Something that she might wanna submit to school and accept and love herself when she makes a mistake. So when she was younger, she would make a little mistake and then rip the whole thing up and just, and hate the piece and, you know, and, and cry and make it, there'll be a big, big drama around it, but. The older she's, the older she got, she's been able to sort of accept that space. And that's because she sees I'll, I'll be with her and I'll, and I will show her, I will give her, I will show her how to love herself and the mistakes that she's made, and be okay with that. Then move on. Mm. Not, don't be too, don't be too harsh. Don't be too critical on yourself. You've done your best. As long as you're okay with that, as long as you're okay with this, with, you know, you've sat with this piece and you've given it your best. Or she'll, she's a, she's a swimmer as well. So you've given your best in the competition. You've, if you know, and that's, again, that's the, that's a very strong masculine side of hers. If you know that you've done your best, you come out of the water at that point. Relax, surrender. Embrace yourself. Yeah. We see that we're, you know, in this, this kind of dance between the masculine and the feminine. We do that. We do that all the time. Uh, and yeah, they're both, they're both, I. We, we can never banish, we can never sort of push, push one side and say one is better, one is better than the other, or it's just with her as well. And in my, in my own parenting, you know, embrace, bring them all, bring them all in, make a nice bread salad from them.

James: 1:01:58

Yeah. Nice. Can you finish off by telling us what is it that you do and how can people get in contact?

Ori: 1:02:06

So I work, I work one-on-ones. I work in groups, I run retreats. And I work predominantly with men who, who are successful on the outside. Strong men who feel some kind of, some sense of emptiness and wanna connect to themselves, want to heal parts of themselves. And this is all with the intention of being in service, creating some kind of legacy, being, uh, being their full, connecting to the, to that light that we spoke of and being their, their full version of themselves. Mm. So connecting to first and foremost, connecting to what is that? What is that treadmill that we're on that we feel like we need to, who are we trying to, who are we trying to please? Who, which, what are we trying to prove in the world? And come back home to this sense of self love, compassion. So I can be there for myself so I can be there for my family, so I can ultimately build something, you know, the, the dream, uh, where can I be found? My website is ori lat.co uk and the handle on all social medias at Orla, O-R-I-L-A-T-T-E-R. Simple. And if anybody wants to just jump on a call, have a free possibility call, just hit me up. We'll start, start with a little conversation.

James: 1:03:28

Thank you very much, aria.

Ori: 1:03:30

Thank you, James. I really enjoyed this.

1:03:32

I.