The Lost Art of Listening: Presence, Nature & the Masculine Journey - Part 1 | Josh Fineman

In this episode of Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, I’m joined by men’s coach and community leader Josh Leigh for a powerful exploration into the transformative practice of deep listening—not just as a communication tool, but as a gateway to connection, healing, and presence.

Josh shares personal stories of how listening beyond words helped him reconnect with his wife, navigate emotional conflict, and build trust within his men’s groups. One powerful example includes a 48-hour forest experience with his wife, where the absence of technology and conversation opened them up to the quiet wisdom of nature. Through silence, presence, and curiosity, they found themselves being listened to by the natural world around them.

Key insights from the episode include:

• Deep listening requires presence, not performance. It’s not about fixing or responding—it’s about being with someone fully, even when they’re hard to understand.
• Listening is healing. When we’re deeply heard, we feel accepted. That alone can be more powerful than any advice.
• You don’t have to get it perfect. Listening is a practice. Notice when your attention wanders, and gently come back.
• Silence can be sacred. Whether it’s sitting with a friend or walking in nature, silence holds space for deeper connection.
• Ask better questions. Try simply saying, “Is there anything else?” after someone shares. It invites more truth and depth.

Josh also shares how listening to the body, not just the mind, is key to presence and how men can benefit from slowing down in a world that constantly demands more doing.

If you're ready to connect more deeply—with others and yourself—this conversation offers a refreshing, grounded guide to doing just that.

Transcript

0:00

In today's episode, we took a deep dive into the power of deep listening. We look at simple tools you can use today to improve your listening skills and how listening can be a super healing tool, not just for you, but for everybody around you. Welcome to Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men navigate modern life, find their true purpose, and redefine manhood. I'm your host, James, and each week, inspiring guests share their journeys of overcoming fear Embracing vulnerability and finding success. From experts to everyday heroes. Get practical advice and powerful insights. Struggling with career, relationships or personal growth? We've got you covered. Join us on Man Quest to Find Meaning. Now, let's dive in.

James: 0:55

the modern world needs more space for listening. Josh, can you tell me more?

Josh (2): 1:02

This is take two just to be transparent. If I can condense my words a little bit. I notice that when I shut up and stop talking and really try to hear and listen what someone else is saying, I can understand them better. I can see the person that is behind the words that are being said, and uh, and I don't think that's just for people. I think that's listening to everything in life. I am someone who enjoys talking and has been a real talker for a lot of my life. And I think the modern world encourages talking, whether it's through the classroom or social media or being around a loud, dinner table. But when I really listen, really listen, whether it's to somebody, or even if it's to something as what may sound as woo woo as nature or to hints from life as to where I should go, and I stop and slow myself down and I listen. There's more wisdom and opportunity and possibility in that for me. And if I could speak to a. Recent experience that really highlighted that for me was going on a 48 hour, uh, I think it's called forest bathing, but essentially it was 48 hours in a forest with my wife. And it was not a normal experience for me. And it was hugely out of my wife's comfort zone. And in the buildup to it, she was angry and resentful that I was kind of dragging her along to this thing that she didn't really want to do. And instead of trying to talk her into doing it I just tried my best as possible to listen to what she was saying. And I. Started to hear that underneath that anger and the resentment, she was scared and she was stepping massively out of her comfort zone, and she wanted to feel more in control and felt very out of control. And her mind was racing as to all the scary possibilities of what could happen. And so instead of doing what I think I would typically do, which is try to, uh, convince her as to why that won't happen and talk logically with her through what she was doing. I just listened until, and I asked her actually just to keep sharing all the things that she was feeling. And slowly through that process of hearing her, it enabled her to actually start seeing and understanding what was going on for her and eventually. She calmed to a point where she could come on this experience for me. And then during the experience we took listening onto a whole other level because we didn't have phones on us. We weren't sleeping in the same bed in a building. We were sleeping outdoors on a wicker bed in the middle of a forest each on our own. We didn't eat. We spoke very little, and when we slowed down to that level and all that we could listen to was nature for 48 hours to the birds, to the wind, in the trees, to the rustling of leaves. Something really profound happened in a very short period of time. And we both shared with each other that we started to feel like because we were listening to and seeing the natural world. It started looking back at us and it started listening to us and it felt like we were building this incredible connection with something that we often feel very separate from. And so I think whether it's human beings or it's the natural world, or it's something in a different plane or realm, uh, I think the modern world has lost its ability to actually listen to what is being shared with it and what the modern world is to learn how to listen better.'cause when we listen better, we connect more. When we connect more, we feel more whole and realize that actually 99% of the things that go off in our head as to what we need, we don't actually need. And we have everything all around us already. And I'll stop there.

James: 6:16

Brings me quite nicely to what's. From my own perspective, from listening to yourself, it's almost like a tuning in to the forest. And for, for me, I found that I love the forest. Forest is like my place to go if I'm feeling stressed. What I've also noticed that I almost resist because there's also part of me, you usually my head saying, oh no, no, you don't wanna go to the forest. You're wasting time. You should be doing this, this, this, this, this. And so we live in this very, very fast paced world where it's all about productivity. We don't, yeah, go, go, go do this, do this, do this, achieve this, achieve that. But we forget about who we actually are at very core. That's what I, Mrs. I believe, and I believe when you step into nature. You step back into your primal instincts and from from there, you can really, really, I feel, connect to the rhythm, to the flow. One thing I'm doing at the moment is practicing relaxation. So I'm doing this in this wealth, group I'm in. One of the techniques this month is to do a 21 day relaxation challenge. And the idea of that is that you'll spend 15 minutes throughout a day just being in silence or just relaxing. No screens, no tv, no washing up, just being. And what it's brought out for me is that when you relax, you allow and you're in a state of receiving.

Josh (2): 8:10

Mm. I mean, it, it, it sings from a very similar hymn sheet. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because there's almost like a, um, I, I think dichotomy might be the word. I hope that's the right word. And it just doesn't sound clever, but it's, it's appropriate between practicing relaxing, we were set a challenge to relax every day. It, it, I think the world that we operate in is a very doing space. The modern world, as you said, is about doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing. And yet we're human beings. And so I can imagine that if I was set a challenge to relax every day. That would create massive tension between my brain that wants to do it right or do it well. Or if, if I'm trying to relax and then 20 minutes into it I'm not relaxed, then I'm failing at it or I could be doing it better. Um, and yet what I hear in the exercise, which is so brilliant, is actually it's learning about letting go of all of that. Being okay with even that there's something like deeply meaningful about even just, you know, people think that you should meditate to relax. I don't believe that's why I meditate. I actually think if I meditate and I notice that I'm not relaxed or I notice that I'm finding it really difficult or that there are a million thoughts going off in my head, like I. That's amazing. That's good. There's something like the levels of self-awareness that I am practicing there about just stopping and noticing is like is more than enough. It's not the listening, the re the relaxing. I think relaxing. Is it kind of it, if I, if I asked you to relax right now, I think it would be really difficult to do that. I think it's a state that kind of comes. It's not something that can be forced. And I think again, you know, I look at my work and I think a lot of people look for a tick box of things to do in order to get to a certain state. Whereas a lot of the time the. The goal that people are seeking come once they let go of the expectations that they need to get there in the first place. Do you know what I mean?

James: 11:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? I feel it makes perfect sense. It's almost like you can't get into a state of relaxation, so especially if somebody says to relax because you are almost making it a goal. Yeah. And I I almost feel like if you try to make something, a goal, there's almost a sense of pressure. Yeah. I've doing another course to do with building sexual energy and we are doing this meditation and I remember very clearly what he said. He said. So it was 15 minutes to do this meditation. And I was thinking to myself, how the hell am I gonna do 15 minutes of meditation? And he said something, he said, don't force yourself or try, just put your presence on your solar plexus, which is for me was the, um, the energy center. So rather than trying Yeah. Or forcing it, just put your awareness in that place.

Josh (2): 12:26

Yeah.

James: 12:28

And for, for me, that allowed me to move into that state of that um, receiving.

Josh (2): 12:36

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you used that word before. And I'm kind of really conscious, dependent on who's listening. I think if, if. I feel like this is the kind of thing that there's a real difference between understanding and knowing or knowledge and wisdom and like some of this may just sound like words to people who haven't necessarily experienced this yet. This kind of what we're saying by receiving if you listen long enough, you receive. It's really it. This is really difficult to understand in the mind because the experience of it isn't in the mind. And in fact, as soon as I go up into my mind, then I lose that connection and that presence and that receiving of whatever this thing is that I'm going through. But I really like that word receiving because that's how it felt. In this forest. And that's also, I find when I'm in conversation with others and I'm really listening from this very like, embodied place, I'm not just trying to solve your problem in my mind or think about the next question that I can ask. I'm like, I'm really with you. Like I'm sensing everything like your words, how you feel, your, how your body is like, I'm like there with you. And then I tend to find that when I let go, as you said, of these expectations as to where something should go, that's, that's where like living happens. And yeah. And I, we are not even past that first statement, but I. I work with a, a lot of men who are at a stage of recognizing that constantly seeking the next thing or constantly trying to reach an expectation or reach a goal or reach an outcome, um, you know, they can be very good at it. But it comes from this need to prove their worth to someone or something. And it's exhausting and it's not living, and they're not present with their family or their children or their friends or their colleagues or even their work. They're just existing. They're feeling a bit like they're zombies or very effective. Machines walking through life, but they don't necessarily feel like they're living. And the only time that these men feel like they're living is for a very brief period when they've, uh, achieved this thing that they wanted. And they get a big dopamine rush and they feel great about themselves. And then they're onto the next thing, all right, what's the next mountain to climb? I like that hit. I'm gonna get another one. And they look back and they're like, where have those last x amount of years gone? And it's sad, really. And I was that guy for a while too. And I missed out on a lot of life because of it.

James: 16:07

That leads us on quite nicely. Tell me about yourself. What's, what's your story in regards to how did you get to where you are now?

Josh (2): 16:16

That's a, it is a big question. I suppose I, I'll give a bit of context, which is that although I was a pretty happy child, and I had on the whole like a really amazingly privileged life, a lot of joy and love, I think I experienced as a child and I think I didn't know as a child. I think I felt just like very safe. I was the oldest brother, I was pretty good at sport and academics, and I had a very successful father. And I went to an all boys independent school. Um, and at a certain period of my life, probably when I was seven or eight I think I started recognizing the need to compete to get better grades, to be better at sport, to be the one who was picked first in the playground. And then I think throughout my life from that period, there was this kind of pulling in two different directions. There was who I was at my core, which was about love and connection and sharing and belonging and adventure. And then there was this other part which was about fitting in and winning and proving and seeking acknowledgement and love. That followed me around from grades to sports, to, social standing to girls, money career, where you lived. And I was pulled in two different directions because I had this personality of someone who was this very funny, lovely, sociable, warm, giving, caring, nice guy. And underneath all of that, there were these huge insecurities that I wasn't enough. I met my wife very young, and when we left university, she shifted from being my girlfriend and then wife to being my therapist because I. I didn't quite get what I needed from my parents because they didn't like to see me in pain. So I think they tried to fix me or save me. I felt a bit like a burden to my friends or that I maybe would be judged by them. So I didn't necessarily want to turn to them. And my wife is a phenomenal listener. And so she listened for many years and that had a really detrimental impact on our relationship, sexually intimately. Because like I was going through a really difficult time of trying to find myself in this thing called career and work and and leaning on her for support and I. I kind of zigzagged from one career to the next. I was in finance and then film finance and then film production, and then set up a video agency. And it kind of evolved into this pretty well reputable content agency. Um, and yet there was a part of me that was a bit hollow inside, uh, seeking this thing that I had before I was seven years old, which was just wholeness and enoughness. But trying to find it through proving and climbing mountains and every time I got to the top of one mountain, I needed to climb another mountain. And when I was in my early thirties, we had our, first child. We've now got three kids. And my mum got in a really terrible car crash. She was in hospital for about three months. She was on death's door for the first month or so of that. And whilst there had been deaths in my family of grandparents, I think it was my, my first real experience of mortality. Um, but what was interesting is two weeks into that whole ordeal and having a three month old baby, I was coming home with a glaze look in my eyes and with worry in my voice about things to do with my work, which again, came from this place of trying to prove myself and not being happy. And my wife turned to me and said, I can't do this anymore. You, you need help. Um, so I. Listened to her and she gave me permission to go and find someone or something where I could offload this stuff to, that was going on for me. And I didn't think I needed to see a therapist.'cause at the time it was still quite taboo for me. So I was like, I, I know I've got problems, but I'm not suicidal. I don't believe I'm depressed or, I was anxious and like I said, like our marriage was lacking kind of romantic intimacy. But on paper everything was okay. I thought I'll go and see a coach that sounds like right up my street. And that was my kind of foray into the world that I've been in for the last decade nearly. Somewhere along the way, after understanding more about who I am and what my values are and what triggers me and how to regulate my nervous system more, I was introduced to a man called Kenny who was this lovely guy who who said, do you want to come and check out my men's group? And I remember my first reaction was, what the fuck is a men's group? And is this even allowed? That sounds like something that it goes against what the world is saying is needed right now. But I really liked him, so I thought I'd go along to it. And that, night in a dingy backroom in Camden with five. Random men I would never normally interact with from all walks of life really changed the direction of my life. And I went to one group and then I went to another group. And then within six months I was going to groups every single week once or twice a week. Kenny was, became quickly my coach and mentor. And I really started diving deep into this question of who am I and why am I here? And listening. I really started to listen and COVID happened shortly after and there was this massive influx of men who needed more space to be heard. And Kenny asked me and a bunch of other guys in his groups. If we would be interested in facilitating with him.'cause he couldn't handle the capacity on his own. So I volunteered and he took a few of us under his wing and he trained us up into how to hold space for men. And I was running these weekly groups. They were really simple, an hour long. And I guys from all walks of life showing up some were suicidal, some were just curious and exploring, real all ends of the spectrum as to why men were showing up. But it was this yearning for connection and clarity, purpose, and love. And and that was, I was doing that for like three years. And during that time. I decided to step back from my creative agency'cause I recognized that actually the life I really wanted was not making commercials for brands anymore. I wanted to work with people. And I started to see this daisy chain of all the things that have lit me up in life, being about putting experiences on for people, having deep conversations, connecting in a human level, and then started to say, okay, like what does this look like? I started running workshops, I started coaching people. I went on a bunch of courses to up my professional as well as personal development. And then at some point I decided, okay, I, I, I've reached a comfort level. I wanna start running my own men's groups and being Jewish. I grew up in a household where the word mech was banded around a lot, and I always liked it as a word. It means a good guy. But when I looked up the actual definition of it, it means a person of integrity. And integrity is about alignment. It's about understanding yourself. It's about acting in alignment with your words and your words, aligning with your beliefs and recognizing what beliefs are yours and what have been handed down. It's everything that this work is about. So I set up a group, I called it men, and then three years later, this is a ever evolving community in person in North London where we blend nature and adventure, with real conversation. And I coach men in a one-on-one capacity. I. I run private groups of guys who've been together some for like years. Some are just starting up and we run these community wide experiences which connect men to their bodies and their hearts. So we do swimming, we do fireside conversations, we practice yoga, breath work, and it's all about unplugging men from their every day and placing them in nature and giving them space to share and listen and support and call each other forward. And that's my life now, and it feels a million miles away from where it was a decade ago.

James: 26:56

That's quite a journey. There's parts which are quite similar to myself and obviously the, a key theme that you've talked about is deep listening. People listening so it's beyond the surface. It's, I think you mentioned it earlier, it's about what's the heart, what's the body saying? Ca can you feel into that person's heart? Can you feel into how they actually feel? And almost, if I think about it now, deep listening, there's a sense of being able to connect to that person, heart to heart, and understanding, not physically. I think probably invisibility underneath. So what's being said underneath that you cannot see. Mm. So what's your definition of deep listening?

27:51

Mm.

Josh (2): 27:54

Well, I think I'll try and answer that with, uh, an example which is when I'm with someone who I care about and they are, let's say they're reacting with anger or fear, or they're reacting to a situation I. That just doesn't make logical sense to me based off of my own levels of comfort. It can be really easy for me to judge them or dismiss them or think they're stupid, or it just doesn't make sense to me why they're doing that. It can be really easy and the times where I'm really listening to that person, I find that I tend to ask myself what's going on beyond the way they're reacting to this situation right now? Why are they behaving like this? And sometimes the answer can be. I suppose quite therapeutic and seeing a child within them and saying, okay, what's this person's history? How were they taught to navigate certain challenges? Like what the beliefs that these people have that have got them to a place where this thing that I don't think should anger them or scare them is angering them or scaring them. So it can be quite heady, but I'm, I'm still trying to see the person beyond the like kind of reaction and activity that's in front of me feel. That's a level of deep listening and that feels like I'm listening deeply.'cause I'm trying to, I'm trying to sense this person beyond what I'm seeing right in front of me. And I'm trying to, I. Listen beyond my own reactions to their behavior. And then I think another form of deep listening comes from really connecting to that person's, experience or story with my own, really trying to not just see that they're responding from a place because of however they grew up or whatever's going on for them. But really trying to place myself where have I been this way in life, and how have I responded to that? And I think within, certainly within the men's groups that I run, that's the really powerful thing about, that space is that when men share, especially when they share from a place of, raw honesty, which I suppose the word that is used is vulnerability. But the space of, I don't know if you are gonna accept this or not about me. And it hits me right in the heart because I, I can, I can see myself in that same situation. That feels like a level of listening that just goes beyond the words, it goes beyond sympathizing with that person. It's, it's about really appreciating that person. It feels like a full, kind of like visceral, experience when I'm listening deeply.

James: 31:56

I can definitely relate to that.'cause I've had experiences where when you are able to connect to a person beyond what you are currently doing physically, there's a sense of, actually no, I'm gonna explain it. I'm gonna explain it in, like you, an example. So the other week I went to this, it's called Sacred Theater. And one of the exercises they got you to do was to sit opposite a person and you had to communicate that person through their body, through your body without speaking. Use your hands and body explain different emotions that they're going through. So say for example, they've got something like quite stuck in their throat, you might use your hands as a waiver like that. And if that was right for them, they, they would sink in as well and then they would kind of expand it out. But what I found with one of these guys was that when we started to sink in properly, we found that we, it got really, really tribal. We were moving in sync and we kind of started chanting and it was quite an experience. But what I find is that some people are really easy to sync with. Others are a lot harder.

Josh (2): 33:19

What made it harder to connect with others?

James: 33:23

It's more so there's people who, it's easy to connect with, very easy to connect with. And then there's other people that, it's almost like whether that person's got a shield up or it's just a bit nervous and they're, they've got nervous energy and I feel, one thing I think in our society that we struggle with is focus. So I feel like sometimes to deep listening, there's almost, you've got to be, there's gotta be a sense of being able to move your attention, your our awareness. Our focus to that other person with the intention, I believe, of connecting more deeply. But because we are brought up in a society what we, we want things now, I feel as though we've lost that attention, that awareness, that focus, that really is required sometimes for deep listening.

Josh (2): 34:26

Yeah. I think it might be framed as deep listening, but I think what you're tapping into too is this thing around being accepted. I, I think when I feel deeply heard or seen it, it's because no matter. What I've done. That person on the other side of the table makes me feel like I'm still enough. And, and the art and the work as a person who I suppose is paid to listen, continues to be learning how to still listen deeply to people who I don't find it easy to connect to straight away. I've got certain clients or certain people in my community who I get on like a house on fire. Who, when we have sessions together, either coaching or in groups, it's like we're dancing the same jig. We're both, we're both jazz musicians. And to your point, there's something fun and playful and light in that. And it's like we are both just witnessing each other in the moment and it's magic. And, and yet sometimes there are other people who come into that space and they don't play jazz and they've got two left feet, so they don't want to dance. And I think the skill. Is to enable those people to see even with where they're at just showing up is more than enough. Just trying, just being willing to be there is plenty for now. And they can take as long as they need to take a step forward. And I suppose when I think of deep listening, actually what I think is it's this deep resonant acceptance of the human being underneath the physical person that is in front of me. And yeah, when I feel most received, it comes from that place. And I think when people sense that I'm really listening to them, it comes from the same place as well.

James: 37:16

How can people out there start to listen more and what can they start to do today?

37:25

Hmm.

Josh (2): 37:27

There goes the brain thinking of checklists of what people can do. I mean, a, a, a lot of, uh, my. Practice or what I do for myself. I say this from someone who's a, a continuous learner in this field as well. Not someone who's some sort of guru in it. And I tend to always caveat that because I recognize that I am a teacher of sorts. But I'm just sharing from my learning. So what works for me may not work for everyone. I'll go back to the example at the beginning with my wife and, when she was in this buildup to this, retreat that we did together when she was reacting. Let's say, I took a very deep breath. I recognized that I was getting angry and resentful myself, and I was hurt myself. And I recognized that was boiling up and that I was going to shout back or I was gonna, nudge her in the way she nudged me. And so, to begin with, I just took a deep breath. And I recognize that this is, I've been doing this now for long enough that I can even observe when those things are taking place. And for most people, they may not, be able to do that as easily as I can now compared to 10 years ago, let's say. But I took a breath. I bit my tongue and I just let her speak. And even though my mind was racing, I really tried to just let her speak until she finished. And when she finished, I just used a very, very simple question, which I use all the time with my clients and with the men in my groups when they're talking as well, which is there anything else? And then I close my mouth again and I let her speak out even more. And so I would say a couple of things. I would say, if you want to learn how to listen. Like even just being in the question of how do I listen as a first step is enough, and all of this work isn't about perfection. So if you show up to a, a conversation or a meeting and at the end of it you went in with the intention of listening, but you'd show up and you react again and you don't listen, and then you're annoyed at yourself afterwards, like even just being in that process of recognizing what's going on, like you're doing really well to even just be in that question. So this isn't about being perfect from the bat. So I would just say that. That's just an indicator that there's still room to grow and there's still work to do. And thank God for that.'cause life would be pretty boring if there weren't opportunities for that. So just be kind to yourself and, and then I would just say if you want to take any doing away, when you're in these moments and you hear the voice that says, ah, maybe I could do some more listening. Take a deep breath, shut your mouth, and when the person has finished and only when they finished, ask'em if there's anything else. And I'm sure there's a bunch of other ways that you can then navigate conversations. Nonviolent communication is, is a brilliant tool to use, but I would just say, just to begin with that is more than enough and see what happens from there.

James: 41:59

Just to clarify, you setting the intention to listen, allowing them to speak and then as soon as they finish repeating to them, is there anything else? Having compassion on yourself and being able to recognize when you do, when you do start to listen and when you start to kick out of listening. I can relate to that myself because when it comes to listening, you, the intention I usually start to deep breathe, so I come into the body and I listen through the body, but then perhaps maybe 10 seconds, 20 seconds, I'll then switch into unconscious mode. But then I'll recognize and then I'll come back. And there has been times in the past when I've been like, get angry at myself, but I've come to learn that it's, it's not gonna change. Just like that. It takes time. Even changing your body posture takes many, took me six to 12 months to change the whole my body posture. So I was a bit more upright. Mm. So imagine if you've got these ingrained beliefs, thoughts, patterns to do with always speaking, actually change that. It's gonna probably take a long, long time, but you've gotta start somewhere. Exactly.

Josh (2): 43:19

Exactly. Um, and if you really want to learn how to listen, find really good listeners, to have conversations with, you know, that could be friends, that could be groups, therapists, coaches. Or it could just be you going out into the nature for a few hours and not talking, and seeing how good nature is at listening to, to you after enough time.

James: 43:54

Yeah, I like that one. I might try that. I was, I was gonna go for a walk after this. I notice myself, when I go into nature, the one thing I love to do is to speak out loud to myself.

44:05

Mm-hmm.

James: 44:06

It's almost like, yeah, nature's your friend and it's there to listen to you, but at the same time you are almost speaking to yourself to, oh, yes. Got it.

Josh (2): 44:22

Yeah. That's a good one. This may, uh, completely throw your audience off, but a little game I, I play with myself, which, um, uh, if you just cut to I play with myself, that would be a good outtake. But, um, one thing I like to do, uh, on a, on a walk is just observe all of the movement in the trees around me. And then I imagine that the leaves on the branches on trees are the arms and the leaves on the trees are the fingers. And I just imagine the trees are just saying hello to me. It's like they're always communicating, saying that they're there. If you listen hard enough. So yeah, it, it, when you're next out on a walk notice how many trees are waving. Hello to you.

45:20

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