The Lost Art of Listening: Presence, Nature & the Masculine Journey - Part 2 | Josh Fineman

In Part 2 of my conversation with coach and community leader Josh Fireman, we explore what it really takes to create safety — within ourselves and with others — to have the kinds of conversations that can heal.
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We talk about how deep listening begins in the body, not the mind — and how getting out of our heads helps us tune into the signals, sensations, and stories beneath the surface. Josh shares how presence and nervous system awareness are the real foundations for meaningful dialogue.

We also explore the power of honest truth-telling — even when it risks rejection. Josh shares a deeply personal example of how allowing someone to hate him for speaking his truth actually saved their relationship and created more intimacy than ever before.

Then we step into the highly charged terrain of toxic masculinity, where we discuss the harm of labelling traits as “toxic” and how this can cause fragmentation and shame in men. Instead, we talk about integration — reclaiming the healthy, grounded aspects of both the masculine and feminine within us.

Key insights in this episode:

• Deep listening starts in the body, not the brain
• Courageous truth-telling can create new levels of connection
• Why labelling parts of ourselves as toxic leads to self-rejection
• The difference between doing from fear and doing from presence
• How one person’s deep listening can begin a cycle of healing
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Transcript

0:00

In part two of the conversation with Josh Fireman, we talk about how deep listening builds deeper safety to have the difficult conversations which can heal. We talk about the idea of how allowing ourselves to be rejected by others can actually allow the connection to heal on a deeper level. And we explore the subject of toxic masculinity and how labeling parts of ourselves as toxic or bad creates inner conflict. Welcome to Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men navigate modern life, find their true purpose, and redefine manhood. I'm your host, James, and each week, inspiring guests share their journeys of overcoming fear Embracing vulnerability and finding success. From experts to everyday heroes. Get practical advice and powerful insights. Struggling with career, relationships or personal growth? We've got you covered. Join us on Man Quest to Find Meaning. Now, let's dive in.

James: 1:07

What I find, especially with deep listening, is if you are in your head, it's very hard to listen, I think in your head because like you say in your, your mind's continually racing, wanting to do this, let's say this, and even, even when I do this episode of yourself, there's times when I will switch back into my head thinking to myself, what do I need to say next? But it's about being able to connect and almost say it with your body. I find. Yeah. I feel as, especially if you are, especially if you're listening with your body, I, if you're listening with your body, I just tried it a minute ago of yourself and you get all these funny sensations, so like, you might have a, a feeling in your, in your chest here or a sensation down there. But what I'm finding is that there's almost, there's almost a sense of deeper listening within our body. There's a sense of, I feel there's almost a sense of wisdom when you are able to connect deep, deeper with the body. There's a almost a deeper sense of wisdom that's able to come out from it.

Josh (2): 2:21

Yeah. That's, um, I mean, we didn't even tap into this at the beginning of the session, but we live in a very, like we said, we live in a world that is very goal and orientated and very strategic and very, focused in the left brain and in the doing and the achieving. But we've got this whole other part of us from our right brain down that is this giant brain in its own right that, um. That can connect us to a much deeper, richer, more meaningful knowledge of who we are and what we want and how we want to connect and how we want to feel. And so much of the world and how we live in modern society, whether it's through how we eat, our lack of movement, the screens that we're focused on, the distractions we have around us, the busy schedules that we have all the time. The virtual nature of so many interactions we find it hard to connect to that and we lose our connection with that part of us. But as soon as we then move our bodies, we get into nature, we create some stillness. Once we get past the difficult hammering away of the busy mind and we get to a slower, calmer place. I mean, like I said, like that's, that's where the magic happens. That's where the answers are.

James: 3:59

Part of the relaxation challenge, she was talking about how you've got both the masculine and feminine energies. Mm-hmm. And with the masculine energy, that's all to do with doing the feminine energy is all to do with relaxation. So she was talking about how when you are, when you are able to do inspired action, take the action, then allow yourself to relax. And that relaxation, or receiving gives, creates space for you to receive wisdom. Intuition, which then allows you to then take the next inspired action step.

4:42

Yeah.

James: 4:42

Then you take the next, then it's, it's, it's so much so that when you are able to receive or relax, you are able to connect into that intuition, which is our own guiding star, which kind of leads us on nicely to what we're, what we're meant to do the next, the next big inspired step.

Josh (2): 5:07

Yeah, and you can't have one without the other. It's not like the feminine is better than the masculine, or the masculine is better than the feminine. Life is a combination of being and doing, but if we're just doing on its own, that's where I said there's this deep unhappiness in many men who are just. Robots doing, achieving, trying to build, compete, dominate, prove try. Because it's just so heavily focused on the doing. Whereas you're right, it doing from a place of being is I, like I know that in my life, like I was doing a lot and when I was being, it was detached from the things that I was doing in my life. So it didn't feel purposeful. I still felt lost. I got these kind of hits and waves of, connection and joy on the odd occasion, and then they dissipated.'cause I went back into the doing and the two weren't connected up. Whereas I think now my life feels much more purposeful because the two are. Deeply interconnected, and sometimes they disconnect. And sometimes I'm two in one world or two in the other. But often when I feel fully aligned, the two are just like completely integrated. And sometimes I need things like 48 hours in a forest to reconnect me to my being so that I can step back into doing from that place. What I love about the masculine, which I feel, or my masculine, which I feel, when people talk about feminine and masculine, I think there's just a lot of conversation about, toxic masculinity and what's wrong with toxic men. And I think people have associated really valuable masculine traits as. Being toxic just because of that phrase. But the masculine is just like incredible when it's harnessed correctly, it's the masculine energy in me that allows me to sit with, myself when I am enraged or I'm terrified, or I'm incredibly joyful. Or when I'm with other people who are in those states and I'm able to observe it and be with it and make sure that I still come back to my values. And I still come from a place of, wanting to serve. Not like that's like a, an amazing, healthy, masculine place to be grounded, to be boundaried to, to serve. So yeah, the two have been vital and we, men probably live in a world where there's two, there has been not enough focus on the feminine. But I also feel like we also so live in a world right now, which might be over-indexing on the feminine for men. And I think it's a real, it's really important that the two are balanced and that men and women embrace their inner masculine as much as they're in feminine as well.

James: 8:49

Really, I think toxic masculinity is a massive subject and I almost feel there's no, I don't feel there's any way to even. Label toxic masculinity, because I feel everybody, everybody's got their own opinion of what it is, and there's almost a sense that it's become the buzzword. It has become a buzzword, and people are using it nearly willy and not actually understanding what it actually means.

Josh (2): 9:25

Yeah. I think it's one of the most, possibly one of the most damaging phrases that have come out of, this new wave or movement, um, around equanimity and equality and diversity. And I understand why, and I recognize that there have been men in this world who have. Done deeply damaging things. And there are women and minorities and vulnerable people who have suffered because of it. But I think having a word in front of masculinity, as poisonous, as toxic, does not serve the outcome that the people who use that word, are saying it for. Because to your point, it has become a buzzword for people to use as a label, and it's so lazily used and misunderstood, that it is creating, in my experience, more damage than good. I mean, from personal experience, I've had people come up to me and commend me for fighting toxic masculinity. And I understand that they're saying that as a way of commending me or, appreciating me. I go inwards when I hear that statement and I feel like I'm actually not being seen when someone says that. Because I can appreciate why they think that is a compliment. But I'm not doing this to fight anything. I don't think that men need to be removing any parts of themselves. I think we need to be reclaiming the best qualities of masculinity, not getting rid of parts of ourselves. Because then if we are getting rid of parts of ourselves, which I think for me, that phrase of your combating toxic masculinity brings up, then we're just trying to prove ourselves and fit in a box. It's just a different box to the one that historically men have been trying to fit themselves into. I haven't quite got like a, the best metaphor for it yet, but there's just something in, I've tried to equate it to something else, but it feels to me a bit like, look, and also I like, I'm like a, I'm not qualified in the world of, systems psychology. So I know, I understand though and appreciate that I understand patriarchy. I understand that we are in a system. I understand the system in large parts controls most people. I understand that a lot of men and a lot of women have been influenced by what it has traditionally meant to be a man. But I still don't think labeling it as toxic masculinity helps us with the outcome that we all want, which is more connected and more, more connected, and a more peaceful and a more meaningful world where people look out for each other more. Yeah,

James: 13:17

You are almost saying to yourself to reject that part of you. So if you are, if you are rejecting part of you, you are actually rejecting yourself.

13:29

Exactly.

James: 13:29

And I've always found that if I try to push or reject something, it comes back two or three times harder. A hundred percent. And so I feel almost like it's about integrating these parts 100%. So we, I feel we have the ability to be as evil, evil as Adolf Hitler. We have the ability to be as nice as Mother Terra. We have the ability to be as powerful as Donald Trump or as you know, we have the ability to be everything. It's how we integrate it and it's the choices that we make, which dictate what's happened in our surroundings, our environment.

Josh (2): 14:17

Yeah, exactly. And, and, and I love how you put that, and that's why I, that's why I said it's a kind of about reclaiming what masculinity is like anger, which I would say a lot of people associate with toxic masculinity, or he was, he was angry, he was aggressive, like unhealthy. Anger is a problem, but anger is a gift. Anger is what has created some of the greatest change in our history. Um, directness, being blunt, um, can sometimes be associated with, the phrase toxic masculinity. Um, but being able to cut to the chase and say what's going on, if it's done skillfully and compassionately is a gift.

15:19

Mm-hmm.

Josh (2): 15:19

Yeah, I mean, as you said, like it's a, I also notice in myself there's like, it feels safe to say this in a conversation with you. I, like, I've been with people that it doesn't feel safe to have this conversation with. And I even notice in myself as someone who's a relatively skilled facilitator, who has a pretty good sense of self, it's a very sensitive topic. I'm Jewish and we don't need to get into the, middle Eastern conflict. But I can tell you that being Jewish in this country right now, there's a ton of labeling of people because Israel's in their hearts or because they have a family out there. And I think it's very easy to label someone as good or bad because they associate with something. Whereas from my nuance perspective, I don't like the person in charge of the government there at the moment. I don't like a lot of what's going on, in, the Palestinian Territories, but Israel's in my heart and my friends and family are out there, and it means a lot to me. Now, does that make me a bad person or genocidal, or does that mean that there's nuance to this? And I think that the same can be said with toxic masculinity. Because I have certain traits that, can show people aggression. That doesn't mean that I'm a toxic person because of, it doesn't even mean necessarily the trait I have is toxic. It just means that, there's some exploration to do there. I, I don't even know if that makes sense, but I see it all around me in all different areas of judgment of me judging others. It's, we can just whack labels on things the whole time. I had a friend who was Russian, lost a load of work because of what was going on in the Russia, Ukraine war. Because he is, because if you're Russian, you've got a, you're associated with this bad thing. It's damaging. It really damages and it doesn't create the outcome that we actually want. So I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what the phrase is that we can use instead. I know people use healthy and unhealthy masculinity. I've really gotta sit with whether even that is helpful. I put my shoe on the other foot and I say, what if we use the phrase toxic femininity? Or what if we said there are unhealthy and healthy feminine traits? If people are equating that to how to behave as a woman, just like people are equating toxic masculinity to how to behave as a man, I think we have a problem.

18:22

Mm-hmm.

Josh (2): 18:23

Um, and that's the, that's the e. I think that's one of the problems is people are equating this nuanced topic to something very different.

James: 18:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You mentioned a key word during that statement. You mentioned about safety. Yeah. So how can we create the safety to have these conversations or to have the deep listening conversations of another person or to have the deep conversations in the men's group?

Josh (2): 18:59

Probably with a very skilled facilitator. I think it comes from firstly. Being clear on what we want the outcome of this conversation to be and recognizing where our outcomes meet, what we really want. I remember, someone said to me that, in the, um, conflict in the island when it was taking place, uh, the way they were able to move towards peace was sitting down and a skilled facilitator or facilitators help the leaders sit down and recognize that what they both want is a better future for their children. Don't quote me on that, but that's the story I heard. And so I think when we sit down to have these conversations, we need to see the humanity behind what I. We want so it doesn't feel like we're on different sides. And then we really need to be curious and understand and listen to not just what someone is saying, but for lack of a better phrase, like why they're saying it. And if we were to put ourselves in their position, how would we feel? And I think if we do those two things, I think we can have a chance of really talking through really difficult subjects.

20:43

Hmm. Because what

Josh (2): 20:44

we're not trying to do is win an argument. We're trying to understand each other so we can move towards some sort of outcome that we both have a shared investment in.

James: 20:57

Yeah, that's, that relates. It's, but I find the problem with creating that safety is that people have this fear of objection. So if they say something of a person doesn't, believe they're gonna, they're afraid that person's gonna hate them.

21:19

Mm-hmm.

James: 21:19

And that person might hate them, but that's okay. That person might be understanding and that's okay as well. But it's almost, we, I feel almost create to create proper safety in a society that is willing to do the work. We've gotta do a lot of work on the rejection side of things.

Josh (2): 21:43

100%. Yeah. I mean the, again, the outcome. Of these conversations doesn't have to be that by the end of it, one of us has won and we both now agree on the same point. Like having difference of opinion is like really important because it can help us have a much richer understanding of a situation and of why we feel, how we feel. Again, like, I dunno why I'm coming back to the, middle Eastern conflict. I try and steer clear of it, but the guy who wrote Sapiens said It can be true at the same time that you are oppressed and you are an oppressor. It can be true at the same time that you are the perpetrator and the victim and. It can be okay that I can hear and understand your how you feel, and I can take ownership of my part in that and for you to do the same with how I feel. But that we're coming from slightly different perspectives.

23:02

Hmm. I

Josh (2): 23:02

think that's okay.

James: 23:06

Yeah. It's almost like there's a sense of, we as a society, we've gotta go through a big sense of healing, but then through the healing we can have the conversations. And these conversations will be the, also the parts of us that help to heal us the same time.

Josh (2): 23:31

Yeah.

James: 23:32

But in order to get, but in order to get some conversations, we've gotta have the courage. And be curious enough to step into it.

Josh (2): 23:39

Exactly. And I, I think you raise a really important point there, which is if we are coming at conversations from a need to fix, it's too soon for that conversation.

23:54

Hmm.

Josh (2): 23:54

Why are there men's groups, why there women's groups? Why are there, any sort of group, for any form of minority or niche? It's because it's within those confines that these people feel safe, and we only can move into areas of growth when we feel safe. So being able to work those conversations out within those smaller areas of comfort, I. Where by the way, it may still be really difficult to have those kinds of conversations. We can then slowly start to expand our area of comfort and step into newer places. But we can only do that when we have really worked through our stuff in environments that feels safe enough. Otherwise we're just diving in head first into the deep end of a pool. Having not ever learned to swim before. Of course we're gonna sink. Yeah. Yeah. One step at a time. One step at a time. I can't remember specifically what the question was that you asked a little while ago, but it was something around. How can we engage in these conversations And, it doesn't have to be. So two examples. For me one that was an absolute, I wouldn't call it a failure, but was an example of going too soon into a conversation. And another one was when, when it was the right time to have a conversation. When, a couple of years ago, a few things happened in my life that brought up, uh, a really important realization about myself and. When I realized this thing about myself, it was like this weight had kind of lifted and it became very clear to me that I wanted to share it with somebody who was very close to me. I'm being quite cryptic here, but, I think I'd rather keep it that way than share the specifics of the situation.'cause I think the point still stands, there was this very kind of real heavy, shameful thing and after processing it on my own, I recognized I wanted to share it with someone. Now I knew it would be a risk to share it with that person. I really did and I knew that they could reject me for it. I. Yet. When I really sat with it, I said to myself, well, if that happens, I'll be okay. And I will be here for them for as long as they need me to be, to know that I still love them and I'm still here for them. And, and I think because I had let go of the need to fix or change this person in their opinion, and I just went into this conversation wanting to share and then wanting to respond with love to however they would react to that when they did react with a lot of fear and anger. And why are you telling me this? I, I. I was okay to be with them. And I didn't try and, justify. I didn't try and fix, I didn't try and advise. I didn't try and save. I just was able to really listen and be with them and say, it's, I get it. I know, I understand that you are feeling this way and I'm sorry that what I've said is causing you this harm. And I love you and I will be here with you no matter what. I want you to know I love you and I see you in all of this. And you have every right to feel this way, every right. And after 24 hours of allowing them to be in this state and be with them in it, either like physically with them or whilst I'm not there, when they reach out to me, not reacting to their response, really understanding. They would be feeling that way, really seeing the world through their eyes, really hearing them deeply. Within 24 hours, it was like there was this like 180 and all of a sudden that anger and fear and that that reactive stuff that so many of us carry around kind of dissipated. And then we were able to really get into the conversation that needed to take place underneath it. And I would say that whole experience completely elevated and maybe even saved our relationship.

29:18

Hmm.

Josh (2): 29:19

And it wasn't just because I shared something honestly with them. It was because I was willing to allow them to fucking hate me because of it.

James: 29:31

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's powerful. It's just quickly before we start to wrap it all up, it's, yeah. The idea that if you have the courage to be able to speak your honest truth, yeah. It can, it can mean that perhaps they will reject you and leave you and that's okay. But then at the same time, like you said, it could be the thing which completely triggers, it completely heals your relationship completely. She moves your relationship to the next level because I feel that honest truth can create a safety around your relationship that can allow, allow you to come even, even closer together, but also you can go even deeper. I.

Josh (2): 30:27

Exactly. Exactly. And, and I think, I think in, I know I didn't share the, the, the failure one, but really the failure one was a example where I wanted to bring people together to fix the situation. And it was basically two groups of people from opposite sides of a, conflict, let's say. And it was really difficult and it was too soon. And what I came outta that experience realizing is both parties need to do their own work on their own first before coming together to to move past their own anger and their own sadness and their own resentment and frustration so that they can really hear each other because. It, it felt like people were trying to hear each other without fully being okay with what the other people were saying. And there was just such a contradiction between those two experiences. And actually like, I dunno if this is true. So I can't litmus test this, but it didn't require both parties to be able to really hear each other, for the resolution to happen. It required one party to be willing to really hear and see the other person and really let that person feel understood and seen and accepted and loved for things to, with everything that was going on, for things to shift. So a hypothesis, but it may not even require both parties to do that. It may just require one party to have incredible ability to deeply listen and help the other party feel really heard to begin the process of, healing, heal it.

James: 32:28

Just to finish up, can you tell the people out there, what is it that you do and how can people get in contact?

Josh (2): 32:36

Yeah, sure. I run a community called Mensch, that is M-E-N-S-C-H. It's really a space for men to. Grow and better themselves together. So men who are seeking more purpose, more clarity, more fulfillment, more connection in life, more depth, it's a space to come to. And I work with, generally fathers business owners or male leaders, in a coaching capacity, one-on-one. And then I run groups and also, community-wide retreat. So if you are interested in developing yourself or creating a sense of fellowship and community, and you want to do it in person and you want to do it in nature, then please reach out to me. I'm not on traditional social media, but I am on LinkedIn for my sins. I write content on there and I've got a weekly newsletter. So either visit the website and sign up to that or, through the website, you can, connect to me via email or book some time in for a short call. Or you can just, check me out on LinkedIn or listen to stuff like these podcasts and, whether you reach out or not. If you feel called towards some form of change and some form of bettering yourself do it and find the people around you that can help you because you will create, an impact, on the people and things you care about the most in a way that you can't possibly fathom right now. So do it.

James: 34:24

You, Jeff.

Josh (2): 34:27

James, thanks for having me. Thank you for the rich conversation.

James: 34:31

Pleasure.

34:34

Thanks for tuning in to Man a Quest. Find meaning if today's conversation sparked something in you, take a moment to reflect, then take a step. Remember, real growth comes from action, not just insight. If you found value in this episode, share it with a friend. Leave her a review, or reach out and let me know what resonated. Your feedback helps shape the journey we are on together. For more conversations like this, make sure to subscribe and stay connected. You can also follow me on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn for updates, tools, and upcoming guests. Remember. It's not about having the answers. It's about daring to look.