Relationships: How to Navigate Conflict & Create a Vision of Collaboration in Love | Jack & Erica

 In this raw and deeply honest episode, I'm joined by relationship mentors Jack and Erica to explore the true nature of long-lasting, meaningful relationships.

 Together, we dived into the inherent mess that real connection brings—the unspoken expectations, emotional triggers, and recurring patterns that often go unresolved. Rather than avoiding discomfort, they share how conflict can be transformed into deeper trust and intimacy when approached with curiosity, presence, and compassion. 

From the damaging “shoulds and coulds” to the healing power of co-creating a shared vision, this conversation offers powerful insights into how we grow together, not despite the challenges—but through them. 

You’ll also hear an honest reflection on how men and women can both learn to hold space and meet each other with empathy and clarity. If you’re ready to build love that’s conscious, courageous, and collaborative—this episode is for you. 

About Erica:

Erica helps individuals and couples move from conflict and disconnection to collaboration and emotional intimacy. A qualified UK-based Relationship Coach with a background in holistic therapies and over a decade of experience supporting growth-centred people, she believes relational health is the missing pillar of wellbeing, and the foundation of a more connected, compassionate life.

Erica's approach blends emotional education, practical tools, and self-awareness to help people move from defensiveness to collaboration, from disconnection to intimacy. Through one-to-one and couples coaching, group programmes, retreats, and workshops, Erica creates spaces where people can finally learn what school never taught them: how to love well, repair fully, and thrive together

About Jack:

Jack is a qualified relationship coach who helps couples using a blend of practical tools, emotional insight and a hardline of removing restricting/untrue beliefs to support lasting change. Jack believes that much of our relational behaviour is shaped by the baggage we carry — often unconsciously — from past experiences. By helping clients understand how their nervous system responses & relational strategies impact connection, safety, and reactivity; He empowers them to build more consciously connected and authetic relationships through both individual ownership and collaboration with others.

https:www.ericamarmai.com

https:www.jacklongbottom-relationshipcoach.com

Transcript

0:00

In today's episode, I talk with Jack and Erica about the ness of real relationships. We talk about the power of conflicts and how conflict is a tool for growth, how curiosity can be used as a key to deeper connection with your partner, and how to create a shared vision of collaboration. Welcome to Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men navigate modern life, find their true purpose, and redefine manhood. I'm your host, James, and each week, inspiring guests share their journeys of overcoming fear Embracing vulnerability and finding success. From experts to everyday heroes. Get practical advice and powerful insights. Struggling with career, relationships or personal growth? We've got you covered. Join us on Man Quest to Find Meaning. Now, let's dive in.

James: 1:00

The inherent mess within relationships that last the traps, fantasies, and the shoulds and coulds, rather than how the relation actually is.

1:11

Good morning, Jack and Erica. Can you explain.

Jack: 1:16

I'm a big believer in romantic relationships, having certain aspects to them that others don't. And when I say that, specifically around healing. There are a lot of loving relationships, close relationships that you can have that will provide. Healing. But I think there's a particular thing that could be achieved when you pick your romantic partner, healing those like relational wounds that, that you can't do with other close relationships. I think is I think like the traps, the shoulds. The coulds, you could probably fall folly in most relationships. I think it's when it becomes not an issue, but the big downside to when you fall into those traps is that in a romantic relationship, you're actually like limiting, I think the ultimate beauty that, that you can achieve at the end of it. In terms of shoulds and coulds and traps and things, I think that's, there's a lot there. So I'll just start with that sort of end piece of like where I think you should where I believe you should be aiming to go with a relationship and then maybe get into how it can all fall apart. What do you think?

Erica: 2:28

Yeah just, I think back of what you just said, remembering that relationships bring us the opportunity to heal, to grow together, and so not to lean towards that opportunity, it's, only really doing relationships, health way and it's okay for so many of us, but I think there is so much potential in remembering that relationships are a growth path. And with that comes. Healing with that comes mess, which we name a lot. And the way we can heal and grow together is about developing the skills to do and I think with that comes a lot of shoulds and shouldn't, and really just about figuring out what your relationship needs because your relationship is as unique as you are. And so it's really a path that you have to be prepared to walk. Remembering that trial and errors can be useful because that's where you learn to trust and you learn to navigate challenge together and really understand what each of you needs as a way of cultivating a stronger relationship.

Jack: 3:38

Yeah. So like within that I hear there's the first big should that come across a lot, which is it should be easy, oh, we love each other. We've been together for five years, one year, however long it is, a long time or short time. It should be easy at this point, and whatever's in front of us it should be. And it's no, it shouldn't be. Yeah.

Erica: 3:57

It gets easier.

Jack: 3:58

Yeah.

Erica: 3:58

The moment you realize that it's not really supposed to be that easy. And when you are tap into the acceptance and you have a feel for what it's like to lean towards a discomfort in a way that's supporting a relationship and not taking away from it, then you start to become more equipped and more competent in your relationship, competent on your partner. And so it becomes easier and it's just like with anything else, I believe.

Jack: 4:22

Yeah. Yeah.'cause it does hit harder, doesn't it? If you expect something to be easy and then you come across hardship. The problem is 10 times bigger than it actually is. Than it actually is.

James: 4:34

Yeah.

Jack: 4:35

Yeah.

James: 4:36

Yeah. There's I think there's a level of social media that can have an impact on our relationships, because you see, when you scroll through, especially if you click on it quite a lot, how you get videos and pictures of how relat how the perfect relations should be. So then it almost IGRAs into your subconscious that's how it's supposed to be. How it's supposed to be easy. It's supposed to, people are supposed to see you straight away. It's supposed to understand you. And then as soon as they don't, it's put it straight off. Yeah. And then also then you're, and you're like, oh my God, what's this happened? There's no working through any of it. It's almost straight away. Your dumped as they used to say. And with doing authentic relating this weekend, we did what's called conflict transformation. And it's actually the idea of being able to listen to that person on a deep level. So much so that you can actually get to the core of the actual wound or the core of the so I'll give you an example. Quite often the lady who was given it was said saying that it's not always about you not doing the dishes. There's something underneath the surface, which is the problem. The dishes are just the trigger. Underneath is the actual core, the core issue. And so they'll say in how, when you listen and then you ask the question, tell me more. You start to understand the deeper. The deeper challenges that person has.

Erica: 6:13

Yeah, it's interesting you say that.'cause I was reading an authentic relating book some time ago and a quote that really stayed in my mind was, conflict is just collaboration, waiting to happen. And it really spoke to me about the fact that there is always something more beneath the conflict. And I think sometimes we attach the conflict or the discomfort to the thing that we are discussing, that the thing that we're not happy about, but what we're really fighting about, it's something deeper is what we're fighting for is sometimes attention, a level of care, really questioning if the other person values us in that moment. Do they care about the decisions that we make? Do they value them as much as we do? And and I think we forget to look a little bit deeper. I was working with a couple not long ago, and there was this fight about one, one of them not doing the laundry. And this was an agreement they had made that there was such a disappointment attached to it because it was very clear that one person was expected to do the laundry. And then when that didn't happen, this big fight ha took place. And it was about how, why do you care so much about the laundry? And the partner was like it's not really about the laundry, it's about our agreement. The fact that we've established that I was going to build trust towards you, that I could count on you and now I don't feel like I can. And it's not about the laundry, right? It could be repeated in so many other different scenarios. So I think that's a really beautiful metaphor to remember for me, for us, sometimes we still fall into that yeah. Yeah.

James: 7:46

Just quickly, because we've already gone quite deep, quite fast. So for the listeners out there, what's your idea of a messy relationship?

Jack: 7:55

Yeah, that's a good question actually, because I think there is, it's important to delineate between like healthy mess and what is unproductive. And actually, you mentioning social media, not only is it like there's the side of the relationships which are too perfect. I also see a lot of people torturing each other in relationships and that becoming normalized. Yeah. I can speak to my partner like this. If I'm annoyed at my partner, they can suffer my reaction and all of this just splurging on, on the other person. So if I was to define acceptable mess for me, I think it's on a person to person basis, however. I would say that if you are if I and Erica were having the same argument every weekend, that was breaking down every single time in the same way, never being resolved. And I know in my half hearts I'm actually always carrying this thing that either says I'm gonna avoid this particular conversation for forever. We never talk about that'cause we can't talk about that. Or I am always going to do this thing for fear of their reaction because if I don't do this, then I get told, like these motivations to either do or not do things that always end in fear or yeah, usually fear of something else happening. So I feel like mess. I welcome all mess as long as you can. I think it's gonna sound cliche, but it's like talking, can you talk about it? Can you like, can you have the disconnection? Can you come back? Talk about the disconnection, can you then collaborate to find a new way to deal with that disconnection? If it happens again, because it probably will. We're quite mechanical as beings and if one person has this way of acting and another person has this way of acting and they always bash into each other and you are both working through that, then it only makes sense. Actually, this is a challenge. It's probably gonna come up a few times before we like, as a couple, manage to find a way through this. So I think if you have that overarching plan to actually work through it together, then you can take a lot of mess and you will be willing to, it's not gonna be a punishment, it's gonna be like, I know why I'm working through this. Yeah. The opposite of that would be, yeah, what I alluded to at the top.

Erica: 10:16

Yeah. I think one thing that really was a game changer for me is to your point, what we were saying about with. The relationship being expected to be easy, it's no. How about I expect it to be messy so that I don't get disappointed when the mess comes. And to me, the mess is really about honoring our complexity, right? I think we are complex beings and I think to be in denial of the fact that we are is just to avoid the mess, right? And I think the mess can be, again, another opportunity for us to sort through some things that are difficult for us to hold. Maybe we have never had modeling to know how to navigate our differences in values, for example, which can bring up a lot of mess. It's how do we function when we believe such different truths? Which,'cause everything's valuable, everything is valid, right? Your experience I can't agree with, but I can be challenged by it. And so how do we sort through that? And yeah, just looking at how those messy moments, those tension points can really add value to the relationship instead. And to expect the mess rather than avoid it. It's what makes what, to me, made a difference in this relationship for sure. And I see it happening with my clients as well when they surrender to the fact that there is some level of challenge of mess to the point where, we have to choose for the mess not to become chaos. Because when it becomes chaos then, we start to find it a lot harder to sort through. And to your point, it's can we just make sure that we honor the mess, but don't let it transform and evolve into chaos that we then feel completely out depth trying to make order through. Yeah.

Jack: 12:02

Yeah. Because I think on the surface of that, I think ev, everyone would say and maybe I'm projecting, I would think most people would say, oh. What's the perfect relationship? Oh, know someone who's gonna be there for you through better and worse. You know who's gonna be able to support you when you are your lowest and raise you up when you're highest. And

Erica: 12:17

how

Jack: 12:18

well, yeah. It's okay, you expect someone to know you, you want someone to know you that well, to be able to support you to your absolute core of your being. Then you just gonna be some mess. Getting to know that part of anyone, because there are parts there that we carry around that we don't really know what to do with. I'll say I still have parts of me that I'm like, oh, what do I do with this leftover thing? And what do I do with that? And, oh, it's, causing a hiccup here and holding me back there if I want Erica, genuinely to be able to like, help or support me through that. Or even just know me through that. And that's gonna come with mess. It already mess feels messy here. So of course it's gonna it's not gonna be perfect when it comes out in between. And I think that, that gives me. A lot of solids, let's say if I'm like really triggered or like really angry or something, it's those thoughts that bring me back to, okay, I am not being attacked. This isn't, I'm not being criticized, nor am I like trying to do something wrong. This is just like what it looks like to

Erica: 13:16

yeah, it feels messy, but it doesn't mean it necessarily is. And so we have to be able to convey that sometimes.'cause my experience might be completely different from yours and, but if I'm able to vocalize that's what I'm going through, then maybe we can find a conversation that allows to find a bit more harmony and actually clarify what is actually happening. Yeah.

James: 13:36

Yeah.

Erica: 13:36

That makes sense.

James: 13:37

Makes sense. There's a few things I like the way you said I, because quite often we say we, but you're not owning your experience. So by saying, I owning your experience and everything, what's going on? Expectation came to mind when you chatting. Expectation. Yeah. And in my eyes, expectation's almost the relationship killer. Because you expect, you have expectation that relationships are gonna be easy. You have a thing that you're never gonna get into. Arguments have an expectation that yeah, we have expectations about everything, but then when it actually happens, we're like, oh, I expected it not to happen. What's happening? Kind of thing. And it's like almost like a shock to the system. Yeah. And it's this idea that we allow ourselves, as you said, so Erica, so surrender almost to the point that we are not there to win the conversation or the conflict. We are just there to hear the other person's point of view. Then we can start to, I feel, and we can start to. Work our way through the template. So let's start. The conflict conflicts can be the con conflicts so often are the end of relationships or a way that we as human beings can become even either feel less worthy, feel less enough kind of thing, because we almost slip from that way of connection into either, so let me go back to what we're talking about at authentic relat. So those thing of I with dignity. So that's when your self-worth is high. Then there's a level of humility and that's when you are able to connect to the other person. So it's we, if you are always in eye. You might slip into that thing like, I'm the best person I am, kind of thing. You forget everybody else. You become obsessed with yourself. And then there's the other level of when you get too much into humility, you almost, you ignore yourself. And put your focus on everybody else. And so when you are in that state of I dignity and humility, I am we are able to connect to people. So we're able, I feel like we're able to be present, we're able to be in our power. And in that way, I suppose we're able to listen more to that person. But when we are either in I or we, I feel we are not able to listen. We're not able to go deep into the conversation because we are literally, we haven't got the capacity to do it. In your eyes, how can people start to navigate con?

Erica: 16:31

The first thing that comes to mind for me is that one of the frameworks that is at the basis of what we practice over the years, that it's just really simple, which already you touched on, is when it comes, when the time comes and you're feeling friction, you're feeling triggered. One thing that really worked for me is I have to think, what about my behavior and my choices right now are impacting you? And is this good for me? First and foremost? Then is this good for you? And as a whole is all of this serving the relationship? So there is the me, there is the you, and then there is the we. And I think it's for me. Building the skill to slow down in those moments of trigger and be able to tap into your own body and understand what is happening. For me, this is, this discomfort, it's to some degree useful because it's bringing me back to myself. But I have to be aware enough that I don't feel good right now. And so what do I want for myself that is going to contribute to your wellbeing as well as mine, and therefore the wellbeing of the relationship. And I think that pausing, that slowing down and that cultivation of self-awareness in the moment, and then self-regulation, which then hopefully with time and skill becomes core regulation, you start to take care of everything and build the capacity to hold it all. But it's a practice, I think, and I think that's slowing down. It's. It's at the basis of everything. You can't move through conflict when you're just jumping from topic to topic. You're trying to be right and make the other person wrong. That, that's just ego to ego. And I don, I don't think that's the way relationships can thrive. I don't know what you think to that. Yeah. And if you have anything else,

Jack: 18:25

yeah, I agree with all of that. Obviously. I think the two points, the two simplest points I could boil it down to when dealing with conflict, a added to everything Erica said as well is is one have some boundaries in place to know when to stop the conflict. For instance, if it exactly, if it's like an Erica scenario where they're going really fast. It's a million different events from a different things, and you're not really sure where you are in the conversation. And it's just like heat and the heat and reaction. I think you need to be able to know in yourself when that becomes unproductive. Because there is conflict's gonna happen, that's fine. But if you get into a point where you are winding each other up so much that you're just ready to scream and shout and then torture, one of you needs to be able to say, this isn't working right now. And that would always lead up to repair. So I feel like I concentrate way more on repair than conflict. I don't think there is a way to do conflict wrong. I feel like it's in, in a way, it has some beauty because it's like this combustion that just happens. And as long as you can, like I said, keep within the limits of not letting it go so far, that it's like chaotic and really hurting the other person, for me that combustion is, oh I'm reacting to a trigger right now. Or, something like that. And then yeah, just focusing on the repair. And by which, it is as simple as setting a time to come back to the conversation when you're both calm and talk about it slowly, like Erica said, and try and strip away as much of the excess or the ego and all the extras that was there. And just makes sense and makes sense of it. Eric, what's happening, like Erica was saying that she's really good at doing in the moment, but if you need the pause, it's like, what was I doing? How was that affecting you? How is that affecting us? And then Erica goes, oh, what was I doing? How is that affecting you? How is that affecting us? And somewhere in the middle of all that you're gonna find, the truth and collaboration, and hopefully some soothing for each other. It's not about coming to the same answer. But the soothing usually comes with, okay. Okay, Erica, next time. I shout at you that, I'm, oh, okay. I'm gonna commit the next time I feel my own voice raising that I'm actually gonna remove myself. So you don't have to tell me to leave because I, because the shouting is really intense for you. Maybe that could work or maybe good for you. Yeah. And works for me as well. Or maybe Erica is happy enough to be like, do you know what Jack, the next time you shout, I'm gonna point it out, then I'm gonna take a pause.'cause at that point we don't collaborate and then we're gonna come back, but it's about coming back. It's always about coming back to it like

Erica: 21:06

Yeah. With a vision of collaboration. Yeah. I think when in time when we have moved through those moments of slowing down, pausing, maybe taking some space if we needed to and then came back, it's okay, what is the vision for this conversation? Two. Number two, right? Because we are coming back to the same conversation, but it's like the second version of it. Like how do we envision this being different from the previous version? And to me, one of the things that worked for us is okay, collaboration. And we both have our own version of what it means to collaborate. So it's beautiful that we can bring our part in it and say, okay, this is what I understand about what happened and didn't feel collaborative. Then what can we do to make it more collaborative now? And what do we need to remember for the next conflict? Again, not expect for it never to happen again. Say, what can we do to today right now that is going to make our next conflict vector?

Jack: 22:02

And that does coming back to the, this is probably the only time I try and use the word easy because I don't really like the word easy, but it does in the long term, make things easier. Like we had a conflict over the weekend and even during it, I've got in the back of my mind. I know that this isn't gonna get solved in this moment, but I know we are gonna solve this,

Erica: 22:24

yeah. As a trust, as

Jack: 22:25

opposed to someone who probably has experienced tens, if not hundreds of unresolved conflicts, are gonna have a voice that isn't saying, don't worry. You're gonna get this sorted. It's gonna say, oh, again, really, I'm here again. Is this gonna actually get solved this time? And the weight of every single un revisited one is always there. So it's that's why it's so important as a practice. And it does make it lighter. It makes, yeah, better, lighter, maybe not easier, but

Erica: 22:55

more trusting. Could

Jack: 22:55

argue easier. Yeah, I could argue easier.

Erica: 22:58

Interesting. And I think what really should also happen in conflict is just holding yourself accountable to the fact that you haven't learned how to do it well. Like nobody really tells, and that is okay. But if you are caring, you have your own and your partner's best interests at heart, it is your responsibility to really look at your part in the dynamic you're creating, even if you think they're a hundred percent wrong. Which is usually a moment of heightened triggered. Just always remember that there is two of you and it's not you two fighting against each other. You are not. Each other's challenge is you two turning towards a challenge and moving towards it as a team. Yeah. And that's where collaboration begins. And that really starts with taking ownership of a, what is it that, am I doing that it's contributing to this friction.

Jack: 23:47

Yeah.

Erica: 23:47

And how, what is the impact here? And I think being aware of the fact that you always have an impact on each other, whether you are happy around each other and peaceful and whether you're not, like you always have an impact. And to acknowledge it is to really lay out what's on the table, rather than, again, avoid. Taking responsibility for your part in the dynamic and what's happening.

Jack: 24:11

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, just to touch on one thing you said. Yeah. You said that it was like, even if you feel like they're a hundred percent wrong, and I know that we both share Yes. Not the same opinions about this, but I would say onto that, if you go in thinking that they're a hundred percent wrong I would kindly push that you are not yet in the correct head space to collaborate, because if you're going in already trying to blame the other person, but then that is also good information. Yeah. For me, if I feel like Erica's a hundred percent wrong, then I know, oh, I am feeling really defensive about this. That's what it tells me. I like, before I can even get over here, I can feel this thing in me that's going, Erica's wrong, and like sometimes I just have to name that first. The fact that I wanna blame you for all of this. I don't want to take responsibility. I don't wanna apologize. I don't wanna do any of that,

Erica: 25:00

and then it gives me, if you're able to name that, it gives me the opportunity to hold space for you in that, because I've been there too. I've been in a place where I have, I don't wanna have this conversation. I don't wanna, I just wanna be right. I just wanna make my point and make my case and go. But if you're able to name the trigger and what's happening in the trigger, which usually is right, protection, self-protection, then I can see that there's something, some part of you that is somewhat scared to let me in, or, to bring up what's truly happening for you. Maybe you'll feel confused about what's happening inside you, and you feel the need to defend. But I wanna get curious about that and I think is a way of taking ownership. Okay, I'm gonna take ownership over my own defensiveness right now. Because I realize that it's not good for me. It's not good for you, and it isn't good for the relationship.

James: 25:46

Yeah.

Erica: 25:47

So let's pause and look at that before we go into the topic that we think is the problem, the laundry, whatever it is, so I hope that's helpful.

James: 25:57

Yeah. So that's, I'm gonna use the word easier now. Yeah. It's, I find it's easier for like myself and probably yourselves when we are able to become more conscious of our patterns, of our triggers of everything around us. But there's so many people out there who are unconscious and aren't able to see these triggers, aren't able to see the different things. How can somebody who's not conscious of these patterns and triggers start to slow down enough to be aware of these patterns and these different things, creating conflict?

Jack: 26:42

As cliched as it sounds, it's stereotypical, I say because there's always, because I think there is a nel of truth in the stereotype. I feel like easiest way in is is the same scenario repeating itself again and again, is every argument I have feeling the same, oh, this person was rude to me. Everyone's always disrespected me. This person disrespects me and that person disrespects me. And every conflict I'm in is because someone's disrespected me or every partner I've had. Always up in the same way. They always cheat on me. I've had five. They always cheat on me. I feel like I've known a lot of people and it also has happened to me. It's like sometimes when you actually sit down and look at the repetition of events, that's a pattern. That's a pattern. And then the next question is this everyone, every other person on the planet behaving exactly the same, putting me in the same situation? Or is this the world I'm creating around me? And it is, it's a hard pill to swallow sometimes when we stop blaming everyone else for these situations where we find ourselves in. But I feel like that's without even going too deep, you can put that on a checklist and tally up the things, you don't really have to get that deep or emotional or uncover anything to be like, am I getting what I want? No. Do I keep on getting the same thing? I don't want? Yes. Is it me? And even if it's just that that one question, because in that moment, although it may not, I may not feel comfortable to say, oh, it's me. Or it may not even make sense. At least at that point you have a choice. Because if it's always coming externally in, you have no power. I can't change anything coming at me, but I have everything I can change about what's coming out of me. And so it's like the tiny introduction of I actually can do this differently. I'm not just at the whim of other people. So I think for me, that's

James: 28:49

yeah,

Jack: 28:50

a really logical way of getting into it, which doesn't have like loads of fluffy language or hard concepts or you have to get in contact with the inner child. Or remember the first time we ever got angry or any of that, it's quite. Statistical and maybe a bit easier in for someone who's like looking into a way that makes sense, makes tangible sense. Is that, does that make sense?

Erica: 29:12

Yeah. I was thinking about when I was, I slowly began to dis the condition from my own victimhood because I realized that I was the common denominator in all the dynamics I was creating in my life, and that is something that was very hard to move through. But ultimately what happened for me when I went from being very unconscious and just blaming the world for my own problems was instead of luckily I had a couple of people in my life who had the courage to come to me and let me know. That I was having a ne negative impact to some degree, and I'm very thankful for that. It was incredibly hard to receive. But I think if we have people in our life who have the courage to come to us and bring this to light, because oftentimes this behavior is in our shadow, right? It's not a conscious way of behaving is something that we are used to, maybe because we have learned it from, our past, past relationships and this is the only way we know how to navigate life. But if somebody comes to us and courageously comes to let us know, that can be really harsh, like you were saying on our ego. But ultimately, especially when you have more of those people coming to you, you start to also take it on board, right? It plants a seed in your own awareness, and that's what happened for me. I was lucky to see that. And also what that helped me see is that I was in deep pain. I was keeping myself in a place where I was not happy with myself. I didn't really know who I was and I didn't know how to navigate my internal emotional states. And so I was projecting all of this anger and frustration and the pain out into the world, and it came to a point where I just had to snap myself out of it and hit rock bottom and had to say, maybe I'm the common denominator in all of these dynamics. And so I think pain, it's a really great point of reference to look at, okay, where is it that I'm continuously experiencing this level of pain or discomfort? And what is the connection between all of these events that, maybe create these painful experiences? And how can I make sense of it? And I think making sense of your own experience is just one way of becoming more conscious of what you need and what you don't need. Which is reflects to what you just said, I think. But yeah, I just felt personally, I was sick of hearing my own voice complaining over and over, and that was my journey. I know, I don't know if it's the same for others, but I think we always are a little bit conscious that complaining is not good for us. If you're caring for your, for yourself, even just a tiny little bit, then think about what is it that I am doing or not doing that is contributing to this pain I'm feeling and how can that be different? How can I care for myself better? And sometimes that means being more honest with yourself.

James: 32:13

That's powerful. I think that being honest and accountable yes. Are two key things and I think. Sometimes the honest truth, even if it's heard from somebody else, can be pretty, pretty raw.

Jack: 32:28

Yeah. And

James: 32:29

it quite often it can hit you and it can take you to rock bottom. One thing you mentioned earlier was space. Erica. Now I wanna clarify something. I want to understand. So I feel like as we become more and more conscious, especially in the spiritual realm, festivals and women who do spiritual kind of activities, that kind of stuff, there's a sense that men have to hold the space for women. And there's this idea that for men it's almost. Quite often not received in the same way. So women feel. I, no, I might be. It's probably a judgment, this is probably a judgment coming out, but there's an idea that when women want to be heard, they want to be listened to properly, as in they want somebody especially if they're in a relationship, a man to be there present, to be there deep listening so that they can almost understand from a level of emotion. But quite often men, a lot of men struggle with that level of emotion. And so they can't understand how to do it. But then also as a man, sometimes I need to be able to be heard because I might have something really deep. A lot of the women that I know is almost like saying that we should be a men's group. That's why we should be doing our stuff rather than they allowing them to hear who we are. But then I feel as though there's also a level of holding space for us, but not for us to go bleh with all our shit, with all our shadows, with all our stuff. So the question is, how do we find that balance from a man's perspective and from a woman's perspective of too much, too little and finding that kind of fine point.

Erica: 34:47

Yeah. That's such a big topic. Yeah I'm just noticing right now when you mentioned about women telling men to go to men's group. I felt a little bit triggered there because I think what we need is healthy relationships, whether it's with men or with women. And I think what we need is to build the capacity and the skill to listen so that the other person feels understood. And that's it. And I think when we build that capacity and that skill, then everybody gets space, the space they need to feel held and therefore build more capacity to hold the other person too. So I think what I often come across is and we all do this, but like some of the women I've worked with, they expect all of these holding from their men, but they're not willing to give it back. And I'm sure men do that in other ways. I don't think it's necessary to separate the two, but I think just do not expect something from the other person without being willing to give it, and I think. We all have a place in the world. We have our, we all have our uniqueness and we all here to develop it and help each other develop skills that we couldn't, you know if we weren't in relationship to others. And I think to your point at the very beginning is any relationship has an opportunity to heal. And I think if we are separating men and women in that process it's not, I think, how are we gonna ever understand ourselves and each other. It's through the other person that we understand ourselves and we are completely different, but we also have human traits that, we share. And I think it's, the beauty is be able to hold space for each other and to be the container for each other at any given moment whenever we need it, and how are we expecting to be held by somebody? If we are not showing them that they're self safe being held by us. And I think with that really comes a willingness to want to develop that skill. And I don't know, there's so much more I could say, I feel like I'm losing my train of thought a little bit. But I think the point is focusing on relationships as a whole, despite the men and women thing. Men need holding as much as women. And I think if anything, one thing that I, that really helped me as a woman to hold space for you better is to remember to not expect you to know how to hold space. For me, I have to teach you how I like to be held, because I have my own way of enjoying and truly feeling safe around you. How can I expect you to just know without me teaching you? Quite literally. And sometimes I didn't know how I like to be held because it's not something I received very much from women or men growing up. And I had to figure it out by myself. And also to trust you in receiving me sometimes in an unprocessed way where I say I feel like I need something. I just don't really know what it is. And I might be messing, trying to explain it to you. And then conversation after conversation. I feel like you know pretty well what I need in certain circumstances, but we keep learning. We keep learning. And I had to get curious about you, like how do you enjoy being held and, supported by me and also I. When do you need a little bit of challenge from me? It's like we have to figure it out. There is no one way to go about it. I wouldn't expect you to just have to go to men's group and do your own inner work because my priority is to understand the whole of you and so that I can feel safe knowing a little bit more what to expect and also what to ask of you to understand your capacity to hold me. Which sometimes is there and sometimes it isn't. And so I think really having that curiosity, it's just so precious because we forget that we all have our inner world, we have our history and baggage that we bring into the relationship. And when we connect with someone and we let them into our lives, we need to remember that we subscribe to the person as they are their past and their future self as well. So to stay curious and continue having. Conversations and keep exploring who we are. It's a never ending game. Yeah. I don't know, I hope that answers your question, but what do you think? Yeah,

James: 39:23

That makes sense. Just quickly, yeah. What you said there. Teach me how the whole space Yes. Because there's all I feel sometimes there's an expectation, not from just my end, from the other end that we already should know how to hold space. And so I think

Jack: 39:40

fantasy,

James: 39:41

It's almost, yeah. It's almost that level of teaching, as you said, teaching that other person, because we're all different. We're all different human beings.

Erica: 39:52

Yeah. Become an expert of your partner. Educate each other about what you need and want.'cause most of us were fine. We don't know what we want, so how do we expect the other person to know what we want and need, and I don't know. I think that's why I think being in relationship and a relationship where there is the intention to grow together, it's so beautiful because that means continuously learning from each other. Yeah.

Jack: 40:21

About yourself

Erica: 40:22

so

Jack: 40:23

much. Yeah. No. It's, it is, it's a big question. And I keep on thinking like my answers are judgy as well. I keep on thinking, and I, so I like Erica's separation from the, I try to a lot in relationships and degender them. Yeah. Because I do feel like a lot of, emotional experiences are the same for men and women. Yeah. At the same time. I do also believe in whatever you wanna call it, masculine energy, feminine energy, the divine, masculine, feminine, whatever. These sort of archetypal things that genuinely give a skeleton to maybe some ways of being. But I believe we everyone has access to both of those modalities of emotion. Yeah, exactly. Having said that, I do feel like, Okay. So for our relationship example, Eric has always been more growth orientated than I have, which means in early and this is also a pattern, I do see a lot in that order from male to female. Which means that early on in the relationship, Erica took the lead a lot. When it comes to digging, learning about each other, being the one to start the difficult conversations. And you were actually really enthused in teaching me and you gave loads of space exactly how you described teaching me how to care for you. The two hiccups that I would and here's where my judgment or projection comes. I think one, sometimes if people don't have the humility or curiosity that you brought to me in the ways of, I don't care how bad you are at this, I'm gonna teach you. I think some people really struggle latching onto that. You should already know this.

James: 42:21

Yeah.

Jack: 42:22

And I think even past that, I feel like there have been some points where I've. Perceived you as being like, okay, Jack, training wheels are off. We've both done more, like you've proven to me that you have the depth there and that it's all of that. So I am now relinquishing the, the steering wheel. I don't need to be the one who is constantly driving us this direction, driving us that direction, having these conversations, having that conversation. So I feel like sometimes if you ever ask me, oh, what you up to? Not so much go and do this thing, what are you doing in this space? I'm curious, what healing you doing at the moment? What sort of things are you going for? I think is more of an invitation to be like, come on Jack. I want, I don't always wanna be the one that has to start this conversation essentially. Yeah. So I feel like within that, there's a difficulty because going back to the gender roles, I think men. As a whole, probably less forthcoming with that. So I think a lot of people experiences will be women dragging the thread out of men, teaching them not only how to care for them as a woman, but also how to care for themself as a man. And like all this beautiful education and safety that can be created in that. And that can go either way, man to woman to man, whatever. I think, yeah. Instead of man tos woman, I'll say let's I'm talking about relationships where there's one maybe more growth orientated person and someone who is less experienced, who has depth, we all have depth, but is gonna need a bit longer or a bit more practice. In in, in bringing that out. So when it comes to too much or too little, I think that's that's also maybe a little bit in flux. I feel like we could say. Alright. Eric and I have been together for a month and Eric expects me to know exactly how to take care of her. That scenario say, okay, that's maybe a little bit too much. Or let's say we're five years, 10 years down the line, we've done all this stuff and I am still not bringing anything of substance to Erica in that part of our life, which I know at this point is really important to her. Then I'm probably not enough and any, so I feel like I don't think there's any single answer to what's too much or too little, but I feel every individual couple should be able to come to that through discussion and like understanding, owning, as you said, their expectations of what the other person is going to be

Erica: 44:53

or show up

Jack: 44:54

as. Does that make sense?

Erica: 44:56

Yeah. And I think just being able to empathize with men like this is something that I just love doing because I also see me still as. My adult self, but also a woman who have to grow into who she is, not really knowing how to do relationships, and how to feel connected and intimate and open in a safe way. And so how can I, expect to bring to you all of these parts of me that still need healing and growth? And forget that you probably have the same, like you have your own hurdles and unconscious patterns that are not serving you, and they're leading you to behave in a certain way. You'll walk away from me when you feel overwhelmed by my big emotions, and I have to respect that. I don't wanna judge it. I have gone through a period of time where it was really frustrating when that kept happening, but I had to, ask myself, what can I do differently? And maybe the way I'm coming onto you, it's. Not impacting us in the right way. So what can we both do differently? So we both really hold each other in the tenderness, because it's the moment you start judging the person for not doing anything that you want, expecting them to just know how without educating them. And I think that's just not fair. I don't think that's, that brings harmony at all. And I think for me, the priority is harmony. And for that means want to want your input. Input, but also understanding that I need to put input into bringing harmony into your life. And we just figure out from there. So I don't know. I hope that again answered the question

James: 46:40

really. Is it? Yeah. How would you approach that though? Because it's one thing being in a relationship. Yeah. And you I've been through five myself and there's that, the first probably. I don't know, month, six months. There's that period where you're just having fun, you're enjoying each other's company. There's almost sometimes little exploring. How do you go about becoming more curious, becoming really trying to understand that other person from a deeper perspective?

Erica: 47:16

Oh, that's interesting. First of all, I think you need to know, do I want to, do I want to know more about this person? I guess I do. That's just maybe who I am. I need to understand who I am signing up to, like I want to understand what's going on for you. So I can, support myself also as maybe like a self-serving thing. I think the more I know about you, the more I can understand how to. Best show up for you so I can become a better version of who I am, and that curiosity is something that one, I think needs to have. But also why do I wanna know more about this person? What am I really curious about and why? How is this going to support me and us in the future that we are creating? And if anything, just being aware of the fact that the initial stages of a relationship are this place of, fantasy a lot of the time. And a place where we bring the best selves, forward, but also knowing that. There will time come a time where challenge will meet us. And again, do not expect things to stay the same. It's one way to go about and say, what are we gonna do? When things in life happen, maybe, we are losing someone in family, maybe like we need to change job and location. Where are we gonna do when, the boat has been rocked? How are we gonna navigate that? If anything? Actually one thing that I suggest to my couples, especially at the beginning. Of the relationship is do hard things at the beginning of the relationship. Do something challenging together. Go and climb a mountain, I don't know. And then see how are they showing up for you? How are you showing up for them? Do you feel that you are already collaborating well together in this specific scenario? And when you do hard things right from the start, then you naturally, the curiosity has to come because you're figuring each other out in a moment where maybe you feel a little bit insecure. And we don't wanna feel insecure at the beginning of the relationship. We want to feel like we know that we are carrying ourselves, with confidence so that, again, we don't have to bring forth all our baggage and therefore not risk the rejection. But ultimately, again, expect that sometimes you will feel rejected, and that's also okay. And it's how you build resilience. But doing hard things as early as possible in the relationship is one way to develop natural curiosity and bring clarity to the dynamic. I think, I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Jack.

Jack: 49:50

Yeah, I liked what you said about it, like naturally appearing, I think for me. Yeah. I'm less, I love like the honeymoon stage or whatever you call it, of a relationship. And I feel personally, I love the fantasy in it. I love the ease of it. I, there's that word again, but it is there not many stakes. It's all enjoyment, and I actually think that in that moment we are most naturally curious. I feel like if someone's really infected you with the love bug or what, however you wanna put it, then you are, you're curious like, oh, I can't, I wanna text them. I wanna go do these things, and all of that wonderful stuff. I feel like the challenge is then when the first obstacle comes, when the first hurdle comes. How much of that curiosity can you hold onto. Because as soon as things go from happy days, sunshine, doing fun things to okay, here's our first serious encounter, that curiosity is the first thing to, and in any conflict, at any point of your relationship, I would even say curiosity is the first thing that goes flatlined. And as soon as that flatlined, it is a slippery slope because suddenly no one's caring about what's happening in front of them is only what, what is happening here is mattering. So yeah, I wouldn't personally, I personally don't stress too much about becoming curious. I know that's a natural part of me. When I am in love and like wanting to put into that, I feel like more I concentrate on it is how do I maintain that curiosity? How do I use that curiosity? As a force for good when things do get difficult and hold onto it. But I wouldn't try too much to like in inject it. I think it comes naturally and I actually think the first conflict is a really good opportunity actually. You can have you fun, have fun, oh, here we go. First challenge, how are we gonna deal with this? Then you have this gateway, because I suppose that the thing that I'm afraid of is telling people, oh yeah, within your first six months relationship with someone, you need to have all of these things checked off and you need to be asking about their childhood experiences and this and that. I'm not saying you can't, if the conversation goes that way, then fine, but I also think that stuff will come. All of that is going to show itself. If, unless you just wanna surface level relationship, in which case you could just hang around up here and never, never go there. Every time conflict comes, you just separate disconnects. Regulate yourselves and come back and never talk about it again. Buy each other a pint or go on a holiday and forget about it all. And you can operate on that per perfectly successfully. Many people do. Yeah. But if you're someone with a proli proclivity to go deep, then it's almost unavoidable. You're gonna go there because it's just in you.

Erica: 52:38

I think to add to that as well, while you were speaking, I was thinking about values. I think values work is really important and just, I think most of us in this world have somewhat come across the idea of values. And I think that's something that could be a great starting point to focus on. What does this person values outside of all this time we're spending together, what do I value that's important to me? That I want them to know about. So that from that place we can figure out what are our shared values and what's different about us. And I think that's really important. Fortunately, I know people that are together for 1, 2, 3 years and then after being together for so long, they figure out that one person wants children and the other one doesn't. For example, it's like, how did you not have the conversation, for instance, and that's such a big topic. It's do I wanna, do I value the family unit or do I not? Do I just prefer being adventurer for the rest of my life and not think about children? And a lot of people are scared to have those conversations. And I think if you are scared to open up to the person you love, then you are not really that close. You are not really that close. And so look at again, what are you fearful of? And can you get curious about your own fear? Then learn to open up and maybe think, oh, if I have fears, maybe they do as well. Can I get curious about that? And it's all going back to that self-awareness, right? Do I know what I value? And then if I do, then likelihood is that I will have some level of curiosity towards what they value too. That's just everyday stuff. I think that's a bit easier maybe for people maybe haven't dived deep into the relational development world, but it's something that I think we should all think about. What are we just valuing? And VA considering as well, the values change in time. And so one can also get curious about that. Like how do you move for change? What? What is, a transition in your life that you've gone through that created serious impact in your life. I wanna know about that and learn about, their past in a way that doesn't have to dig too deep into their childhood traumas, but there are ways to get to know somebody. By asking good questions, I think. But I think that begins with starting to ask good question about ourselves.

James: 55:09

Become playful about, and become curious as during authentic relating. We played a game about being curious, and the game was you asked your partner questions and they wouldn't answer the questions. They'd give you a number out of five, five being a be being his top, it enlivens him. It makes him feel like he's feeling great, and one being like bit bored. So they'd ask you a question, you would rate the question and then you'd move on. But it would almost become a game of trying to get a five. So it'd become exciting. You'd say, okay, how can I ask better questions? What can I do? And then you hit a five. You you, or a four or five, shall I say, you could understand then, okay, this is the area which might bring a lot of aliveness into the conversation we're having. And so perhaps that would be a good way of take into relationship initially. I love that to find out what really enlivens them, what brings them joy kind of thing. And because I think being curious is some, sometimes it can be it is, being curious is quite a big thing. Because if you don't know how to be curious especially if you aren't connected to your childhood, because I think as a child we were always curious most of us were always curious. And so how can people start to build that sense of curiosity? How can, what kind of things can they start to do apart from that game that can bring. I can help them to cultivate a bit more curiosity in their life.

Erica: 56:46

Good question. You alluded to it. Something that I have had to think over the years is when did I stop being curious? Because I was I knew that I always was curious, but I think there was something that was blocking me from being curious. So just being aware of the fact that most of us come into this world with this innate curiosity and then something happens. And to me what that thing was is that at school I was primed to answer questions, not to ask them, for example. So to ask questions lot of the time and to get curious was often an inconvenience and in family as well. There was no time. A lot of the times, my mom and my dad separated when I was seven, so I spent time with my mom mostly, but she was very busy working and keeping us going. And so there wasn't a lot of time, for her to answer my questions. And so I stopped asking and I realized it is something that I had to work through over the years. And so that was my pattern. But all, I think we all go through that to some degree. We are primed to answer questions not to ask them. So just looking at that, just to clear maybe any blocks that we might have could be a nice way to create space for new curiosity or to reclaim our curiosity. And then genuinely think about what do I care about? What brings me. What brings me joy, what brings me the thing that I value? And what does that mean? And I think just starting to ask questions about yourself, it's really important. But I don't know how you would go about it. What you just described in the game sounds really playful. I think for me it's started when I started to dig deep into my own blocks and. Realized that I was I was connecting with people who were really inspiring. They were asking me really good questions. So just keep your eyes and ears open, and listen to other people get inspired by others as well. Like what is their way of navigating the world? What questions do they ask me? A lot of the questions that I now ask people came from somebody else asking me that question, where I felt, oh, somebody's genuinely curious about me. So just staying alert and value the people who are curious about you, because I'm sure there is somebody out there who's asked you question at any given time, where, allowed you to open up a little bit more, and that's something that you can pass on. So just really look at your current experience and previous experience to start somewhere, and then think about what do you enjoy about people asking you questions that maybe you wanna recreate in somebody else's experience and care that way. I don't know. I think we just developed it in our relationship because we had problems and we wanted to sort through them and we had to get curious if we wanted to figure out solutions. Man, I don't know. What do you think, Jack? Do you have any thoughts?

Jack: 59:51

I think I just agree with what you said about it's probably based off values, it's easy to get curious about what you value. So yes, I think if people are looking to get curious, then you need to understand what it is you want to get curious about. So although I do agree that we had to get curious to make our relationship work, at the same time, we both valued that high enough to care enough to want to understand what was going on. Because like I said, I don't wanna just completely repeat what Erica said'cause I think she pretty much nailed it, but it's yeah, when you've received curiosity and that feels good, that makes you wanna be curious. When you give curiosity and it helps you understand something and you like. That then leads onto something good. It is oh, okay. And once you start feeling how curiosity can actually help you, how it's getting you to places that you couldn't get before, it's oh, okay, cool. That's just

Erica: 1:00:38

You do,

Jack: 1:00:39

It's just what you do. But I do think probably number one is the values thing. We wanna know more about what we care about. Yeah. Or, I love this TV program. I'm gonna learn about how it was filmed. The cinematographer, I'm gonna learn about the actors because I care about it. And it's it's that simple for me. It's if it's in here, then you're gonna wanna know about it. And then it's easy to tap in. The only obstacles then become, how do I get curious about a person? It's easy to look up a TV program because I just type type. Then you have the new. Maybe ways of being curious, but it just boils down to questions. I think

Erica: 1:01:10

it's so interesting when you were talking about the movie, you were like, oh, I wanna know everything, the details about how it was made. And I was thinking, oh, I'm just wanting to know why do I love it so much? How does it make me feel? And we're just different like that. So for me, yeah, it's I dunno why am I curious? Why do I like this thing? Why do I care about this thing? And therefore if I'm having this experience, somebody else does as well. So can I enrich my life by getting curious about someone else? And one of my high values is learning and self-development. And I enjoy learning not just from books, but mostly from people. It's much easier for me to ask a question to someone and ask them, how do you do this thing? How do you feel in certain scenarios? And how do you navigate that?'cause that will teach me a lot about how I can show up differently, and it's an enriching process. But again, we're going back to the values thing. I think the values thing is definitely at the core of curiosity and how to begin.

James: 1:02:07

I think I almost feel like curiosity requires space. Almost about changing, because I think in our modern society, we're always on the go go. Especially, I'm gonna just, I'm go into kind of justify men as a whole, men love to be doing stuff. It's almost ingrained into them over the years. And it's almost to become curious or something, we almost need to slow down buying that space and almost not label things. We tend to label things. So there's a lamp, there's some curtains, there's a laptop, there's a door. We've almost labeled them straight away. But if we almost take that label away and look a little bit different that lamp could be a portal to another realm. And all gotta do is jump straight in.

Jack: 1:03:04

Yeah.

James: 1:03:04

And so is that, and that almost brings in a level of imagination as well. So becoming curious, imagine imagination and almost when I've started to connect to people more on a more deeper level I suppose there's two things. I almost see myself in that other person as a reflection of me. But then also, and then I get in saying that I get caught in the trap of what's going on. What when I get, when I do that, I get caught in the trap of what's in it for me? What can I learn about me? That's why I realized but if you dealt a bit different of a person's soul, go a bit deeper. What can you learn about them that could enrich your whole experience of the whole situation.

Erica: 1:03:49

Yeah. This reminds me of what you're mentioning about being a child and it's, children have this sense of wonder or like you said, a lamppost could be this like portal to a new realm. And I think that imaginative aspect can be really beneficial when you're getting to know someone, when you continue to know someone because we are continuously evolving. So yeah, this state of wonder whether it's more about learning something practical or just genuinely exploring something a bit more expansive can be really beneficial and really steer you away from getting stuck in sameness and boredom, and I think that's important. So important. Thank you for naming that.

Jack: 1:04:36

What yourself, Jack, what it, yeah. I really liked what you said actually, just about curiosity requiring space and, it just makes me think of how I was talking about conflict earlier and, and you said slowing down as well, and it's yeah. When conflict becomes too heated and you lose curiosity, everything becomes really close, doesn't it? You've got all these thoughts going off, you probably feel like you're being attacked or you're defending yourself. And it's, yeah, it's like taking that space, becoming spacious. I know you were talking a more general term, but I just yeah, I just thought it was really true as well for conflict as well. Slow down regain space, regain curiosity, and then take that back in and, yeah. I, yeah. I love that. I never thought of it as a space thing.

James: 1:05:19

Spacious process.

Jack: 1:05:19

But yeah I like imagining it like that. It is spacious for sure. It's very free, curiosity is free. It makes you free or provides some freedom, which I love. Yeah.

James: 1:05:31

One thing I suppose being a host of a podcast is that you can build that curiosity to a whole new level. This is, I think this'll be 73 episodes I've done now. And so you naturally, I think you naturally build that curiosity because you've got an hour to spend of this per this, these people. And so you've got to think, okay, I, because I don't like reading questions because it becomes a bit almost yeah, it just becomes a bit robotic. So becoming curious, picking things outta conversations and. This. I think being a host, you naturally build that curiosity and that sense imagination as well. But at the same time, it's, I do notice initially when I am, when I usually start off, I'm usually quite in my head and I have to become aware of that. And so I have to allow myself to drop myself into my body. So then when I'm in my body and in my heart space, I'm able to interact with people on a whole new level kind of thing. Just to finish off you Erica, you mentioned about vision of collaboration earlier that found that for me, that was quite profound because we have a vision for ourselves quite often what of what we want, but when you have a vision to, of a relationship, when you work on it together. You almost together, you have a direction. So then naturally, I think that sense of curiosity, that sense of conflict, transformation, that sense of wanting to learn more about the other so that you can go in the same direction becomes whole new powerful way of thinking, a way of being. And so how can people start to create a vision, a collaboration in the relationship?

Erica: 1:07:33

That's a good question. As you already said, we all have a vision for ourselves. And when I reflect on my experience entering this relationship with Jack I wanted to do this relationship differently. And for me personally. I had realized that I, in previous relationship, had all these expectations about what I wanted from the relationship, which are actually unspoken expectations that I didn't really know I had. So I had to get really clear about what did I want this relationship to be different about? What did, what needed to happen for me to get a different outcome and ultimately feel safer and more connected to the person. And so I had to really come in and have an honest conversation about what I needed and wanted, what was my vision for how I wanted to feel and experience in our connection. And that was, I think, the foundation because I knew what I wanted, but then again, bringing in curiosity, I needed to check in with Jeff and say, what do you want? What is it that you need? From this relationship and from me specifically. And what about perhaps some long-term vision? Because we don't just enter relationship, I think I guess what I must say is that most of us have been given a model, right? Of what a vision for a relationship is, which is get together, get married, have children, buy a house. And so that's what we think that's the vision because that's what we unconsciously live by a lot of the times. And that's what I thought in my early twenties, that's what was gonna happen for me. But there's so much more to that, that the relationship is not the things that you build around it. It's how you feel in it, I think and what you are moving towards together that really counts. And so I think that was different for me. It's like actually pitching my own version of the vision that I want. And it, it really felt like a pitch. I was like, I'm pitching you this because this is what I want. And I'm not saying I'm not gonna be able to be flexible around this.'cause ultimately I need to respect that you will have your own version of what you want. And so how do we merge these two things? And if we don't know, can we bring each other clarity about what we want and what we are moving towards, and can we also be aware that our vision might change? Like just because it's way we say we want something today doesn't mean we're gonna want it in two, three years time. And so can we be skilled and well equipped to make sure that we check in again with our values every so often to make sure that's still what we want. And so the vision of collaboration, I think is the foundation. Can we collaborate no matter what happens? To me that was really important. And I think we moved towards that with the help and support because we didn't know how to, but yeah, I think it's really important to have a shared vision, but again, it needs tweaking and figuring out just like everything else. What do you think, Jack?

Jack: 1:10:43

Yeah, what do I think? I think well coming in, but I always, one coming in this relationship that didn't have any vision or much collaboration. So that's something I've, I suppose I've learned over the years.'cause certainly I was not the one coming in asking why do I want to be in this relationship? And I found those questions very difficult to begin with. But what I really love about what you said is I can't remember exactly I was, but it was like the vision isn't everything you build around the relationship, it's how you feel in it. And. You're right. So many of the details of life are always in flux, where we live, what we do for a job. Obviously yeah, I touch on that afterwards. So I feel like the important things for me for vision of collaboration seeing is having said that is, was actually like the regularity of having that conversation. It was never so much of being like, oh, I want this answer, Jack. You have to come out. What should where's your 10 things? But it was just always coming back to that, especially in times where maybe we were struggling might be a hard word, but maybe just those opportunities insecure when you have those opportunities to pause and you think, okay, what are we? Yeah. And you reflect and actually just having that. That conversation of where are we heading? What do you wanna achieve in the next three months? How do we wanna feel in three months time or in six months or this year? So I feel like it's, because for me it's still a bit of a scary question, and I feel like on any given day, I have a timescale in which I'm happy to answer that. As in today, I couldn't say where I wanna be in 10 years, but I can say how I want us to feel when spring comes, winter being usually our hardest time of year more focused right now is like, how do we maintain the practices and connection that keep us strong throughout a season or seasons that we are, have historically struggled in. So yeah, I think for me it's that still feels like a bit of a scary question because I'm like, not that, but then. As you said, the scary bit for me is like maybe the practicalities, like where am I gonna be in 10 years rather than, how do I wanna feel? That to me is a lot more accessible. Having said that, on the other side, I do think questions like, do you want, kids are like you, you really need answers to those ones. There are some big questions that practical questions that you definitely need to be able to, obviously you can change your mind, but you need to have an answer. Yeah. You need, and I think children, I think is really the only one I can, maybe someone like, will you join my religion? That would be another huge one. Are we

Erica: 1:13:27

about values, right? Yeah.

Jack: 1:13:28

Are we going to open a shared bank account? These like

Erica: 1:13:31

practical

Jack: 1:13:32

things, very practical, very things that are genuinely gonna affect you every single day.

Erica: 1:13:37

Then,

Jack: 1:13:37

yeah,

Erica: 1:13:38

I think there's like the macro vision and then the MicroVision, which is like something you have to keep up with. And check in on Yeah. Every so often. And just keep that in mind when you encounter even, it doesn't have to be just in romantic relationships, I think as well, it's like friendships, like what is our vision for our friendship? It is just a beautiful conversation you could have with somebody you plan to have in your life for as long as possible. What do we again, value? What do we enjoy? What brings richness to our life as individuals and as, a unit, whatever that unit is. And I, we certainly, I think that's one thing we should do more, actually pitch each other the vision that we have and then see where those two merge, and then co-create something really special and unique. But again, the continuous conversation is so necessary, I think.

James: 1:14:30

Yeah. Like dragons dem you're pitching. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jack: 1:14:36

Yeah.

James: 1:14:36

Yeah, I'm in Igra, Jack, I'm in agreeance with you. I think vision can be quite a scary thing because from my own perspective, when you start to have a vision, there's almost that sense of commitment. And almost in the back of my mind, it's saying, what if something changes? What if, and so I suppose having a feeling of how you wanna feel is a lot easier to, for me to hone in on than what do I wanna be doing in five years time. I'm very, I suppose I'm very flowy and I'm starting to learn to be more in the flow, but at the same time, I need to be a little bit more disciplined. But there's that idea that with regards to where I'm going, yes, the po I've got the podcast and where the PO podcasts going, but with regards to other stuff to do with work that I wanna be doing or. Kind of thing. I don't have a clue. Relationships in the back of my mind, I have an idea, but it's quite hard to vision kind of thing. So I think it's different. People will have different viewpoints and different ways of being on that side of things. Thank you very much, Jack and Erica. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, James.

Jack: 1:15:54

Yes, thank you. It's been

James: 1:15:55

so fun. Thank you. Thank you.

1:16:00

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