Why Anxiety Is Essential for Growth: Learning to Lead Your Fear | Caroline Cavanagh

In this powerful episode of Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, James sits down with anxiety specialist and hypnotherapist Caroline Cavanagh for a deeply insightful conversation all about anxiety, fear, excitement, and personal power. Together, they explore anxiety as a natural survival mechanism — not something to fear or avoid, but something we can learn to lead, listen to, and reframe.

Caroline shares how anxiety is often misunderstood and mislabeled, when in fact it’s closely tied to growth, risk, and stepping outside your comfort zone. You’ll learn practical tools like the “what if” reframe, how to shift from head to heart, and why judgment — both from others and ourselves — plays such a big role in anxiety.

They also dive into inner child healing, self-leadership, body awareness, mindfulness, and why accountability and intention are key to lasting change. Whether you’re dealing with social anxiety, fear of failure, or just feeling stuck, this episode is packed with down-to-earth wisdom and easy-to-implement techniques to help you reconnect with yourself and move forward with courage.

About Caroline:

What if anxiety wasn’t your enemy but an untapped source of personal power?

Imagine transforming this misunderstood force into a catalyst for growth and achievement.    This is Caroline’s unique gift.  She helps people decode anxiety’s hidden messages, turning what many see as a burden into a powerful tool for enhancing mental resilience and channeling it into supporting peak performance.  Through her guidance, individuals discover how understanding and directing anxiety can unlock their full potential, not just for themselves, but for everyone around them. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-cavanagh

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https://www.instagram.com/anxietyexpertcc/

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https://www.carolinecavanagh.co.uk/

Transcript

0:01

In today's podcast, I talk with Caroline about everything anxiety. We talk about anxiety as a survival mechanism, how to reframe anxiety as excitement. We talked about the different ways to change your anxiety and so much more. Welcome to Man: A Quest to Find Meaning, where we help men navigate modern life, find their true purpose, and redefine manhood. I'm your host, James, and each week, inspiring guests share their journeys of overcoming fear Embracing vulnerability and finding success. From experts to everyday heroes. Get practical advice and powerful insights. Struggling with career, relationships or personal growth? We've got you covered. Join us on Man Quest to Find Meaning. Now, let's dive in.

James 0:56

We need anxiety to learn how to lead it. Good afternoon, Caroline. Can you explain more?

Caroline 1:04

Hi James. Lovely to, to speak to you and to see you again. So yes, a lot of people, when they hear that well, we go, what do you mean? Anxiety is a good thing and we need it. Absolutely not. I hate my anxiety and that's really where we start. We are born with anxiety. Anxiety is just another word for fear. Our most instinctive survival response, but fear's a four lettered F word, and people don't tend like four lettered F words. So we now use a nice bigger one called anxiety. But fundamentally it is a chemical response in our body when we perceive risk. In any way, shape or form. And that risk. Risk may be a cyber tooth tagger, in which case the adrenaline that's filling your body that we call anxiety is gonna help you run away from it, which is a good thing. Or that risk may be that someone just giving you a dirty look, in which case, again, you need to be aware of that just in case there is a behavior that follows up behind it. So anxiety is a response to risk that helps us avoid. Dangerous risk, let's call it that. However, there is always the anxiety we feel when we're stepping outside of our comfort zone. So it may be, a job interview or a Zoom call or a podcast that you're going on to because it's not something that you do every day. Therefore, it's something that is outside of your comfort zone, and so that gives risk. However, when we step outside of the comfort zone, we grow, and as adults, we've only become adults because we have grown, not just physically, but if you think of all of the things that you have done as a child, learning to walk, the most complex thing we ever do as human beings, most people have nailed it by about 18 months old. The first driving lesson, going to primary school, going to secondary school, the list is huge. We have stepped outside the comfort zone, but very quickly that comfort zone grows and all of the things that were once scary we can now do very easily. So we need to keep stepping outside of our comfort zone, and that's the anxiety that gets a lot of the really bad press. But if we don't step outside of the comfort zone, you're fundamentally dying. I spend a lot of time in, in nature, and one of the principles of nature is you're either growing or you die. So if you're not stepping outside of your comfort zone and growing, then the opposite is true. For some people being a couch potato is what they want to do. I'm not judging that in the slightest. If that's your happiness, absolutely enjoy it. But in my experience, there's very few people that are genuinely happy doing the same thing day in, day out. We need variety. We need excitement. We need to have that growth. So really the principle coming back to where we started, anxiety is a good thing. We just need to give it leadership. Is recognizing that if you are feeling anxious, you're about to step outside of your comfort zone. And those feelings, just like they appear when you're in real danger, is increasing your physical and mental performance to perform better. Exactly what you want to do if you're doing something that you're not familiar. So that's a very long answer to a very short statement, James.

James 4:36

You know something, I can relate massively to that because even now, after doing, I think obviously we're doing the two podcasts. I've done 160 interviews. But even now I get anxiety before I jump on and usually,

Caroline 4:52

lemme question that. Go on, Nan. I'd really love to pick on this. Do you get anxious when you're going on your hundred 61st podcast or are you excited

James 5:03

it, for me, it CI suppose it comes out as anxiousness, but Oh, the, yes. No, not yesterday. Tuesday, I had a family funeral. And I had to do not, sorry, I didn't have to I said I would do a poem for the funeral and I was feeling anxious beforehand, but I allowed myself to sit in that anxiousness and then to turn it into excitement. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So then suddenly I went up, yeah. I was still a little bit anxious kind of thing that standing in front of 200 people, but I was loud and clear, but, and also there was excitement there at the same time.

Caroline 5:41

Yeah, so I think you know the example, obviously doing a poem at a funeral is not something that you do regularly, thankfully, therefore, anxiety is a more likely response because the risk is the fear of judgment of others. The most common instigator of fearing in any of us. However, coming back to your podcast, if you've done 161, I would say that's probably well within your comfort zone, though. And so rather than it being, let's turn it on your head. In the funeral it might be 90% anxiety, 10% excitement, but in the podcast it's 90% excitement and 10% anxiety because you still don't know. There's a little bit of risk is I might say something that you disagree with or you might worry that your audience might get upset up. So there is a degree of risk. But what I find really commonly, because anxiety is seen as something so negatively in a lot of the social media and press that we read, people misinterpret excitement as anxiety because the chemical feeling in the body is actually very similar. And a very simple exercise I give to a lot of my clients and perhaps you can be people can try this at home, is if you about think about something that you're going to do. Let's come back to your great example just now of going and reading in that funeral. If, when you stand still and you close your eyes and you think about doing that, and you feel yourself slightly wobbling forward, slightly tilting forward, that energy is excitement because you're moving towards it. If, however, everything inside your, let's call your subconscious is going, then you're gonna slightly lean backwards. That's energy, that's quantum physics, and that's a whole different podcast that we can talk about. But the energy inside of you will help you start to define, am I actually excited about doing something versus is everything inside be going, avoid this step away. That's the anxiety. And it's amazing when people do it, they go, oh, I am leaning forward. And so it's, again, it's reframing, re reinterpreting this chemistry in our bodies that feels very similar. Is it anxiety, is it excitement? And it's probably a mixture of the two, but don't just label everything as anxiety. There's more than one box there.

James 8:02

Yeah. What? I notice that. The more I put, so if, for example, I know somebody who I'm interviewing and I almost pop them on a pedestal, I'm more likely to be anxious more than I would be if I didn't really know the person. And I think that's down to the, that bit. Already by putting'em on the pedestal, you are seeing them as better than you. So suddenly you are feeling that sense of fear. What if I make a mistake? Are they gonna judge me? But then, yeah, it's fear of judgment. And then there's the realization that, do you know what? I'm just as worthy as them. I am just as good enough. They might have certain aspects about them that are amazing, but I've got other ones and now I've had to reframe it that way.

Caroline 8:49

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think talking about this fear of judgment is really important because we as human beings will judge each other. So pretending you're not gonna be judged is frankly silly. It's futile. We are judging each other all of the time because it's a survival instinct, it's part of art, natural psyche all of the time. The but comes when the assumption is the judgment is going to be negative. That's your own thoughts?

James 9:22

Yeah.

Caroline 9:23

We could just as easily assume it's gonna go, they're gonna really enjoy it. They're going to learn something from it. So again, if we put that into your podcast, if you put someone on a pedestal, you are assuming that you know you are not as good as them and they're going to judge you as being inferior. But that's your thought. They may be going, oh my goodness. I'm really privileged to be on this podcast. James is a really good interviewer. Aren't I lucky to be here?

James 9:49

Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah it's funny'cause obviously public speaking is by far one of the, I think one of the biggest fears people have because again, there's that fear of judgment. Yeah.

Caroline 10:01

There's some statistics that prove that James a research program that was done in 2024 said that people fear public speaking more than they fear dying. Which is phenomenal.

James 10:14

It's funny'cause back in end of 2022, I started doing sober dancing and so I've done it ever since. So now I can dance, no problem. Perhaps not in front of everybody, but if it in the right in, in front of the right, with the right audience, the right people, I can dance like there's nobody watching. I'm in that stage of just. Even though I know people are watching, smiling and laughing because I'm so free, I don't feel judged because I feel as though I'm actually creating an impact by,'cause People are thinking, he's standing so free, why can't I? And so is that, yes, I initially have some anxiety, but I almost move through that anxiety, whether ever excitement or just feeling it in the body.

Caroline 11:04

Again that's your interpretation of someone else's judgment. They're enjoying it. They're laughing at me, I'm contributing something. It feels positive. Whereas someone else on the dark floor might be going, oh my goodness, what are people thinking about me? So judgment in most cases, or anxiety triggered by judgment in most cases is because of our perception of what that judgment is, not the reality. So change the perception because it's not real.

James 11:36

So how come? How come people who are listening start to change the perception?

Caroline 11:44

Let me give you a metaphor. If I was to put a curry down in front of 10 people around a table, it's exactly the same curry. They're all eating it. Some people may say, I love it. Some people will say, my goodness, this is nothing more than a beef stew. And there might be all sorts of things in between. That's all of their judgements. But my only contribution is to make the best possible curry that I could. So the people that love it may be someone that really enjoys Indian food. The person that said, God, this is nothing more than a beef stew, may be an Indian that is so used to really hot food, that what I think is nice and spicy for them is just absolutely tame. So they bring their reality to the table. So to avoid the fear, well to reduce the impact of the judgment of others is purely to focus on what's your intent. So my intent in that scenario is to provide the best possible meal on that table that I could at that point. I can't control whether people love it or hate it, because that's based on their background, experiences, heritage, a whole multiple things that you have no control over. And the best form of judgment is self-judgment. So if I put that curry down and go, it's the best curry I've ever made. I can be proud in myself and hope that it's going to get a positive response. But if it didn't, that's not on me because I couldn't have done any better. So my, my recommendation for people is stop focusing on what other people judge you on. Focus on the element that you can control and that's your intention. And when people act from the intention of doing the best they can act from a place of kindness, act from a place of love, we would be living in a very different world than we are now.

James 13:49

Oh, we would be massively, it's like society, like news, almost live on the negative side of things because negative news sells more. Yeah. And it's almost, we've got into this culture on social media and this kind of, not judging, but comparing ourselves to others and, oh, they're better than me and we almost put ourselves down. So it's having, I think, changing the perception, changing our own language that we use for ourselves.

Caroline 14:20

I'd go one step beyond that, James, in that I think we've developed or we are now living in a culture of blame. Without making this two times specific, there was a big event politically yesterday, and all I've heard today is one political party blaming the other. Nothing about what was good, what's positive. It's all about we're in this situation because of what you did. Oh, but you did this wrong. And you just think this is a culture of blame. And blame removes that accountability for the choices that you made. So we're coming right back to where I started. When you focus on your intention, you are accountable for that intention. So if you intend to do something that's going to take someone's legs out and put'em on the bottom, be accountable for that. However, if you intend to do something positive and that person stills up on the, still ends up on the bottom, you are not to blame for that. You can then have the intention of helping them back up. But when we live in, it's all your fault, it actually diminishes the accountability that we place on ourselves for the actions and the behaviors that we're exhibiting confusing.

James 15:37

As you said, accountability, I'd already wrote accountability down because that's a key thing. It goes back to holding ourselves accountable in every, yeah. In it's, I suppose it's, if we've, I think if we've got into a negative kind of what's the word? I'm after sense, making everything negative, then we need to start to. Perhaps not. It's gonna happen. It's not gonna happen straight away, but it's about almost becoming accountable and accountability changing the different parts of our day as things happen. So if, for example, something we get up in the, we get in the up in the morning and we think, oh, this is gonna be a rubbish day. We can hold ourselves accountable straight away by saying, this is just by changing the language. Or maybe we don't have a particularly good meal. We can hold ourselves accountable. What can I, what else can I get that I like? Just things, just small things like that and compounds.

Caroline 16:36

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And so much of what we've been talking about already is all about the story you tell yourselves. We, we are constantly, our thoughts are really representations of stories that we repeat. So if you're telling yourself the story, I'm not good enough. That person's better than me. It is. No, it's nothing more than a story to change the story.

James 17:00

Yeah.

17:01

I just wanted to interrupt the podcast to talk about something that I'm super excited about ruling next year. So on January the 10th, I'm hosting a one day drug and energy immersion at a place called Eater Manor in Shropshire in the uk. It will be a six hour retreat where you'll connect you in a dragon use movement to release blocks crate from your subconscious, and I'll be teaching you some self-healing tools that you can use to start to change your life. So if you are being, feeling stuck, drained, overwhelmed, or disconnected from your power, then this retreat is for you and it'll help to reset for 2026 if you feel called to the Dragon Energy. Then DM me the word dragon, either on Instagram, Facebook, and I'll send you further details. So I'm gonna put all the links to my socials in the info section up for this podcast and for others. So now let's carry on with the podcast. I just want to interrupt the podcast to talk about something which. I'm super excited about Run next year. So on January the 10th, I'm hosting a one day Dragon Energy Immersion at Eater Manor Shop in the uk. This is a six hour retreat where you'll connect your inner dragon use movement to release blocks, create from your subconscious, and I'll be teaching some self-healing tools that you can use throughout your life. So. If you are feeling stuck, drained, overwhelmed, or disconnected from your power, then this retreat will help you to reset for 2026. If you feel called for the drug energy. DM me the word dragon, either on Instagram, Facebook. I'm gonna put all the links to my socials in the info for this podcast. And yeah, from there you can kind of get in back in contact. You can allow me to, yeah.

Caroline 19:22

And that's exactly what you've just done there. I could tell myself, oh, it's gonna be a rubbish day. The day hasn't started, so how do you know? But it's creating a, an energetic direction that you're gonna follow. Whereas if you go, okay, I'm gonna make this an awesome day, your mind just goes, okay, I can do that too. And that changes your energy. So again, the stories we tell ourselves, the language that we use is really impactful on the emotions that we feel. And absolutely we are accountable for the stories we tell ourselves.

James 20:01

One thing I've noticed I'm doing now actually is I nat my, I naturally either have my hands in front of me like a bouncer. Or my hands behind me. Like it has to do with the fire service, 15 years of it. And, but what I've noticed is if I almost get into the, a sense of listening, but not, I can naturally be in that position of that, that, but to almost break that cycle, I've noticed if I just put my hands out straight, I feel a little bit awkward, but it breaks the cycle. Yeah. And then I have an opportunity to change how I respond in that moment. Yeah. So just by having that little cue I can start to change. Change the story, change the language, change the how I respond, change. It's change anything.

Caroline 20:58

Yeah. There's I go into schools quite regularly and do talks, and there's a game that I love playing with the children because how we hold our body also has a massive impact in the emotions that we experience. So one of the, one of the things I do with them, I say to everyone everyone, act as if you're depressed. And they all do that typical, they hunch over, yeah, absolutely. Head drops, eyes go down, everything just withdraws in. And then I say to them holding that position now, try and have really happy thoughts and it's actually really difficult if you give it a go. It's actually really difficult to think really happy thoughts when you have that body language that's all really depressed. Then we reverse it the other way. So everyone stand up and start dancing. So there's lots of laughter in the room. It's like now while you carry on dancing, try and have really negative thoughts, and you can see frowns going on, faces going, oh, I'm finding this really hard. So how we hold our body, and just that little example you had there. If you're holding your hands behind your back, that's opening up your chest, which again, biologically is saying, I'm feeling strong, I'm attentive. Whereas when we close our body in front of us, that's more of a protective i item and become more self-absorbed in that. So even just little things about how we hold our body can change your thought patterns and thoughts become feelings. Can you, one of the things that,

James 22:23

sorry. Go. Can you carry on?

Caroline 22:25

No, I was gonna say I have what another exercise I give a lot of my clients is to create a playlist. It can only be three or four songs. Keep adding to it of songs that, for you have positive meaning. So it may be, I dunno, the song that you did your first dance to on your wedding day, or a school disco. It doesn't matter. But just put a few of these songs together so that when you are feeling stressed, anxious, a bit down, and you play that playlist, it will change your physiology and change how you think. So on my playlist, I've got probably, I don't know, a dozen or more songs now, and one of quite a few of them are Latino based. And as soon as I hear that music, I just feel I start moving and as soon as I start moving, I start smiling, and even I can be in quite a bad place. By listening to that playlist, it shifts me really quickly. It might not take me from, feeling really down to feeling really up, but it moves me in enough of a level that I can start changing those thought patterns and changing how I feel. So that's a great tip for anyone is we've all got our phones beside us. Now, get on whatever package you use, put together a few songs that have meaning for you, and use that as almost like your mental first aid is the equivalent of sticking a plaster on a scratch. If you're feeling down, stick your playlist on and it will help heal.

James 23:51

One thing I've come to notice I've been working on stepping into my power more often. So being embodied kind of thing. And one thing I've noticed is that when I am, when I'm what going throughout my day is not really present quite often in my head. And I've learned to shift myself from my head into my body, into my chest mainly. Yep. And automatically I noticed that my whole body language changes.

Caroline 24:19

Yep.

James 24:19

And it's just, it's, it is a, it's just by that shift from head to heart, you can, I can notice that, but also when I'm having a conversation with somebody. I am quite often in my head, but if I am, if I shift myself into my actual heart space, I'm actually able more attentive and more listening, more and more present in the conversation. And so just things like that can almost, it can even help with regards to identifying and anxiety and excitement because you are more aware, you're more present and Yeah. I've just noticed that myself.

Caroline 24:57

Yeah. So when you are when you are thinking. That's the what? Sorry, let me say that again. When you are engaged with a thought, you are using the conscious part of your brain, which is the rational, logical part of the brain, and that part of the brain has the ability to go into different time zones. So if you're thinking about something that you did yesterday, you're engaged with the thoughts, even though it's been and gone. If you're thinking about something you're going to do tomorrow, it hasn't happened yet, but you're still thinking as if it's present. So the conscious mind can span the past and the future when, however, you use the same parts of the mind to focus on the now, that's where your energy goes too. So hence when you're thinking about your heart, you are thinking about something that is beating right now. Hence, you become present. And this really is the pri, the fundamental principle of what's now called mindfulness. It's just about what is happening really in this moment, in this second. So again, one of the exercises that I like doing with people is just ask them to close your eyes and then just focus on all of your senses. So really focus on your listening. What can you hear? And it may be you can't hear anything. That's okay. You're noticing there are no sounds at the moment. Then move that to your sense of smell. Again, you might not smell anything, but you are aware that in the moment there are no fragrances in the air, then you can go to that kinesthetic sense. And one of the things I love doing is just becoming aware of how your clothes feel against your skin. How often are we really aware of the sensation of fabrics against our body or how your feet feel inside your shoes? But they're there most of the day. You're just unaware of it. So all of these things make you very present. And the link then to anxiety is most of the time we are not at risk right now. There is no risk. Therefore, no is no real for anxiety, no reason for anxiety. But as soon as you allow that conscious mind to jump you into the future, a time span where you have no control over. Then anxiety is likely to grow. So mindfulness is a great way. And it's got all sorts of names, meditation, relaxation I don't really care what label you put onto it, but it's you bringing the mind back into the now because now there is no risk. And in many ways again, spending a lot of time in nature. Where I live, there's lots of deer. I've got two quite big dogs. If the dogs smell a deer and the deer notices the dogs, the deer runs, but often it doesn't run very far. I've got control of my dogs. They're not chasing it, and the deer goes, oh, risk is over. I'll carry on grazing because the deer is present most of the time. Now there's risk two vs over there. Vs. Not chasing me, not at risk. Carry on eating. It's present. Whereas as human beings, we have evolved our conscious mind in many ways, very positively. But the negative to it is we spend so much time focusing on thoughts in a timeframe that isn't the now. And the more we can learn to bring back that focus to the now, not only we will be less anxious, we'll be more productive, more focused, more lots of other things.

James 28:21

Yeah, definitely. Caroline, can you tell us your story? Please.

Caroline 28:26

Yeah. Try and make it quick. So I was brought up in an environment council house wasn't enough money to go round. Lots of lack. And at some point, I reckon around the age of 1112, something inside of me went, I want a different life. And so whenever my parents, God bless them, both of them now. When they went left, I went right. I became really interested in why do people do what they do? Why were my parents making that decision and I was making a different decision? And that then, started to evolve throughout my teenage years as I became more and more interested in, why does. That girl behaved like that, but that girl doesn't. And why do boys do that? And girls don't. And constantly starting to become really curious about what drives behavior, even to the point of how people sit, back to that body language. And that led to me seeking to study psychology for a number of reasons. I didn't go to university. Drifted into a career in marketing. And that was okay because marketing, again, is largely psychology based and I identifying what people need and trying to sell it to'em in a way that they recognize, how did I ever do it without this product in the first place. And then I married an army officer. So I became quite nomadic for a period of time. And six months after I got married my husband disappeared off to a war zone. And I was left in the middle of nowhere in an army patch where I hardly knew anyone. It was very lonely, and weekends were really difficult. And this friend phoned me up one day and said, oh, I've just booked on an NLP course. And I said to her, I have no idea what NLP is, but I'm coming with you. And that really was the start of my journey to, to where I am now in the NLP Neuro Neurolinguistic Programming is an approach of using neuro the mind. Language to create a programming a behavior. So how you can change how you think, the language you use to create a different behavior. And that introductory weekend turned into me attending the practitioner level turned into me then going to the master practitioner level. But there are some things about NLP that don't sit very comfortably with me, so I didn't really practice it beyond using it for myself. Go forward a few years few years on, we'd lived in Germany for a little while, come back to the uk and my husband phoned me up one day and said, I've just interviewed a sergeant Major who's a hypnotherapist. You need to speak to him. Had a chat with this guy and thought, yes, hypnosis, hypnotherapy sounds exactly what I've been looking for. And in many ways, NLPI always see hypnotherapy as being the tree trunk. An N-L-P-C-B-T-E-F-T, they're all kind of branches that come off of this trunk. So I then trained to become a clinical hypnotherapist popped out the end of that course thinking it's going to change the world. Everyone needs hypnotherapy. And came out into the real world where whenever I spoke to someone about hypnotherapy, they went, oh, clocking chickens, or You're gonna swing a watch in front of my eyes. And it was like, oh, okay. So yeah, it's then really been a process of evolution. There most people recognize how hypnotherapy can be very effective with things like weight loss and smoking cessation. Great. So I did a little bit of that people that wanted to cut down on their drinking. And then I brought back in my marketing experience, branding, being able to position yourself, how do I combat this negative negativity around hypnotherapist and what it actually means. It's not stage show comedy. And what I came to recognize is a lot of the people that I worked with, regardless of the behavior that they were trying to change. Anxiety was the root cause. So people were comfort eating because of anxiety. People were having a bottle of vodka every night because of anxiety. People were going to have a cigarette because I'm really stressed, I'm anxious. So by then repositioning myself as an anxiety specialist, my business took off. I still got the variety of work that really appeals to me, but it made it much easier for me to market myself. But now that I've got that that positioning as an anxiety specialist. The learning has come from it. So I've now really delved much more deeply into the chemistry behind anxiety, the quantum physics behind anxiety. And the wonderful thing is that the whole world of neurology is just growing exponentially. 20 years ago, the perception was that if there was a brain injury, that part of the brain, whatever it did, has gone. Now we understand about neuroplasticity so the brain can adapt. My, my eldest brother had a massive brain injury when he was 37. The doctor said to him, you'll never walk, you'll never talk. He can do both. His walk isn't brilliant. He has a weird gait. His speech is limited, but the part of the brain that should be performing, both of those functions is dead, but other parts of the brain have learned to compensate. And yes, they'll never be as good as the original parts. But neuroplasticity now demonstrates that the brain can compensate. That's led to things like epigenetics, neuro epigenetics the whole arena is, I just find so exciting. And even the top neurologists are still saying, we're only scratching the surface here. What can we really do when we learn to use the power of the mind? And I am focusing on using the power of the mind. Specifically to help people be less anxious.

James 34:26

So where does anxiety come from? Because if most people if most people are anxious where does it stem from?

Caroline 34:36

The fight or flight response are most primitive survival instinct, which is why everyone has anxiety. We need it. Anxiety is what stops you from putting your hand on something hot. Because at some point you have touched something hot. It hurt, but it also risked your survival. Therefore, the anxiety becomes a prohibitor to stop you doing that again. You will feel anxious if you stand at the edge of a tower block, however many, a hundred feet in the air because there, there is a real risk. If you fell off, you're not gonna survive. So anxiety is saying step away from the itch. So anxiety is a natural feeling that helps us to move away from danger. Fundamentally, we are still cavemen, we're just a bit less hairy now'cause we've got radiators and brick walls. But with cavemen, if a saber tooth tiger came into the cave, he needed to feel fear because that chemical that rush of adrenaline in the body, which is what we label as fear. We'll facilitate him to either fight the tiger or to run away from it. The natural human instinct, wherever possible is to run away. To avoid, yeah. You're much more likely to survive if you run away from the fight, tiger. Then you take it on. Yeah, and hence we will then try and avoid things because that's unnatural instinct. But what we've lost the ability to discern is what is the real risk? Yes. Run away from a tiger. But don't run away from a job interview.

James 36:15

So going back to the avoid thing. Because re really we know that if we reframe or if we go a little bit deeper or feel the anxiety or reframe it into excitement, we can start to change it. Yep. Why is it that we want to avoid because Yeah. We know what's best for us. But it's almost as though we take the e take. Maybe I'm answering the question here. We take the easier option.

Caroline 36:41

Yeah. So you know, the base answer to that question is we are avoiding things because that is our natural instinct. As cavemen, as less hairy cavemen, our natural instinct is to run away from things as the easiest way to survive. But where things have become misconstrued. Is, I don't think cavemen was really worried, laying in his cave at three o'clock in the morning worrying about what social media post he's gonna do tomorrow. Yeah. Because cavemen typically we're very present back to what we were talking about with dear, what is it problem in the moment? No. In which case have a nice snooze. So we have it. It's almost as if our conscious mind, by having this ability now to go out into the past and out into the future is focusing on situations that aren't real. But that subconscious part of the brain, the fight or flight mechanism only works in the now. So it's assuming it is real. Which is why you will be lying awake at three o'clock in the morning worrying about your job interview tomorrow. Because the fight or flight instinct is assuming it's about to happen, is pumping your bit body full of adrenaline to help you perform better. Which when you walk into the interview room is a good thing, but at three o'clock in the morning, it's stopping you from sleeping. And the more you don't sleep, the more you're thinking about that interview. So the more you're perpetuating that chemical reaction and so it goes on. Whereas when you start to, it's used the word reframe, most people understand it now and say, that's tomorrow. Right Now the house is quiet. I'm snuggled under a nice warm duvet. I'm completely safe. That subconscious instinct goes, okay, if you're completely safe I'm gonna turn off.

James 38:31

Yeah. Yeah. So what are the, what other techniques and methods can people use to like reframing

Caroline 38:40

one? The one that always comes out as the favorite with the audiences that I work in as a public speaker is what I call what if. And it really is a, is another example of what we've just been talking about. What if I don't get the job? What if I can't pay the rent? What if people don't like me? What if I walk into the party and someone's got the same outfit on? And the natural instinct of the mind when you ask it a question is it will answer it. There's no filter in there going that's a rubbish question. It just goes, gimme a question, I'll give you an answer. I walk into the party and someone's got exactly the same outfit on. I'm gonna be really embarrassed. They may hate me, and if they hate me, they might attack me. And if they attack me, I might die. You're still sitting in your own bedroom having not put a dress on yet. Yeah. But your mind's catastrophizing. And again, it's a natural instinct to do that because that survival part of you is going down that route of, if I do get there, am I going to survive? If the answer's no, don't go down the route. However, if we come back to the principle is the mind will answer whatever question you give it change the question. So what if I go to the party and someone's got the same outfit on? What if they don't? The brain goes, oh, if I've got the only outfit on like that, I'm gonna stand out. That'd be brilliant. Yeah, you're still sitting in the bedroom having not got dressed. However, your mind has gone to a very different place. And I love using this. For anyone that's listening, that's got teenagers use, use this technique because teenagers are what if monsters. You know what if I don't get my homework in on time? Oh yeah. If you don't get your homework in on time, you'll get a detention and then you'll be late for this. Yeah, off down a catastrophizing path doesn't have a happy ending. But then if you just go, yeah, but what if you do? And then the teenager goes, oh yeah, I suppose I could do end of process. And I've seen this happen so many times. I have, I've got a lovely memory of my daughter had got a group of friends around, there was about eight, probably about 14-year-old girls sitting around the kitchen table. And one of them said, oh, what if I did really well, really badly in my exam yesterday? My daughter without drawing a breath, said, yeah, but what if you didn't? And this girl just went, do you know? Actually I feel as if I did do quite well.

James 41:05

That was it. Yeah.

Caroline 41:06

Conversation over. And my daughter looked at me with a sort of shy little, oh, I did. There, mom, didn't I? But it was just even teenager to teenager interaction, just that what if flip it the other way. It takes the mind down a different path. And again, thoughts become feelings. Change the thought. You change the feeling.

James 41:27

Yeah. That's powerful. That's very powerful. It's, I remember as a child, public speaking, used to be one of my, I used to hate it because I remember one occasion I used to slur my speech a lot and reading in front of a class used to be terrible, but we almost relive them occasions again and again, and we almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy because that's what we focus on. But then there's that idea that, okay. What if as again, what if I'm, I completely changed that. Yeah. So how can,'cause I know that inner child healing well in a inner child's job, such a big thing at this moment in time with a lot of people. And how do you work with the inner child?

Caroline 42:15

We are all the sum of three parts. We have our inner child, which is the only part through to about adolescence. During the process of adolescence, the parent part emerges, and it's not about parenting. The role of the parent part is to become the custodian of our values. And again, for anyone that's got children, you'll start to notice that around the age of 11, 12, 13, they start to reject everything that you've told them. Again, that you go left, they go right, because the whole process of adolescence is to create independence. So if they carry on doing what you told them, that's dependent. But they want to become independence. They reject things even if they don't want to. It's a natural process. Then they come back to having largely the same values, but they've internalized them and then they pop out into adulthood. And as adults, we then still have those three parts, the child, the parent, and the adult. And the metaphor that I use, it's a bit like driving the bus. If the right part is driving the bus at the right time, the journey is smooth. However, if the wrong part is driving the bus, it becomes very bumpy and quite often the child is driving the bus and it might seem quite funny, but the child doesn't have the skills to drive the bus. So actually it's quite anxiety inducing. So the inner child work to carry on using this metaphor is about keeping the child safely in the backseat of the bus. It's not about strapping them in, ignoring them, but it's about recognizing the role of the child is to have fun and to push the boundaries. So even as adults, we can do that. I can be phenomenally childlike. My inner child is really quite active, but only in the right context. My, my daughter who is, she's 21 now, far more mature than I am. She's always laughing. It's like there's two, there's one adult around here, mum, and it's not you. But that's fine because when it's just us together, I'm happy for my inner child to be driving the bus because I'm there looking after her. So to go back to the inner child healing work, sometimes the inner child either is terrified because they're on the bus on their own. In which case we need to get some resources around them. Or it may be that inner child hasn't actually learned how to play. That happens when people have had quite traumatic childhoods. That child is just very withdrawn and you need to teach it to play, give it permission. Yeah. But the real sort of, I guess the core at the core of child healing is bringing those other two parts that you have, your parent parts and your adult parts to support that child part, and then that team of three to become a really strong connected team.

James 45:05

The funny thing is I've with doing the podcast, quite a few people have said we've actually got children running the world. Governments in no comment. Leadership and it's more because I suppose going down the thing of inner child healing and actually recognizing that a child's in charge and then be almost. Parroting that child, giving it resources and then stepping into the adult side kind of thing. And I think that's super important because if you've got children in the country, what's the world gonna be like? Say look at the moment. Look at what's going on.

Caroline 45:48

Yeah. And I, I know a lot of your listeners are male. And this is, again I'm not coming, I'm coming from a place of love. A lots of the children that are running the world at the moment are men. We have a phrase that lots of people have heard of in on the English language is, oh, he's just a big boy and little boy trousers, which is again, is a metaphorical way of saying the child part is in charge, but the child doesn't have the resources. To be in charge all of the time. It's okay. Some of the time, as long as, again, the parent and the adult part, they're supervising. But for the likes of some of the leaders of the world at the moment, either their parent part hasn't even evolved and the adult part's got off the bus all together.

James 46:37

So how do you, how, what kind of things can you do to start to bring the parent. To the child. Actually, just before I talk about that, I know the importance of putting aside time for your inner child and some, sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't, and I think it's almost. Being able to do that. So whether that, I suppose I do dancing, I dance that there's nobody watching. That can be my, that was a child time kind of thing. But it's this idea that we need to have Pacific time for our child to go and have fun, to be playful. And I think especially in this modern society, we don't do enough of that.

Caroline 47:20

Yeah, I think that's very true. What I will tend to do in the work that I do is identify what is the emotion that inner child is struggling with. In, in the work that I do, it is largely anxiety. So that child is very scared. So the role then we do therapeutically is to bring in the adult and the parent part to provide support so they're no longer feeling alone, scared. And to say, it's almost like a metaphorical, we've got you. It's okay. If I share a personal story, I used to have a real issue with guilt with my brother that I mentioned that had the brain injury. Even though all of my friends, my husband was saying, you're doing an amazing job, Carolyn. You're doing so much for him. I felt guilty that I wasn't doing enough. And the work that I did with my therapist was to identify that my inner child was struggling with guilt, was very guilty about something of being not good enough. And I went back to a memory of being quite little. I was probably, I dunno, five, six, somewhere around that my mom had baked a tray of cookies and put them on the kitchen windowsill and said, Caroline, don't touch these. They're for supper. And I'd stolen a load of them and just, oh, yeah, had a bit of a cookie monster. Mom never said anything about it, so whether she didn't notice, didn't care. I don't know. I hadn't been reprimanded, but my inner child knew that I'd been naughty, I'd crossed a boundary that I shouldn't have done, and I felt guilt, and that guilt had never been dealt with because mum didn't address it. I, as a child, didn't address it, and it was still there being triggered. 30 years later. And that's just one example of how experiences that we have often as children stay with that child. And if it's not addressed, if there's not, I hate the American word closure, but there isn't a better one if there isn't closure to that, which is what therapy tends to give. It will keep getting triggered. So the therapeutic work is to go back to those earlier memories, bring in new knowledge, new support systems, whatever it may be. And in my case, it was just a case of forgiving myself. The world is still spinning. Yes, I had a tummy full of cookies, but I've survived. So I just, my inner work then was forgiveness forgave that inner child, told her, don't steal things again. It. All of that guilt just disappeared, and my relationship with my brother Reciprocally changed overnight because rather than feel guilty, I would say I am doing a lot. I'm doing as much as I can, but if I do too much, I'm gonna actually end up compromising myself. There's only 24 hours in a day. There's only so much energy that you have. You need to manage those two really precious resources really carefully. So it completely changed the way that I felt. Didn't mean I did any less for him, but it totally changed. Totally changed the way I felt.

James 50:33

So how can we now start to bring the parent in

Caroline 50:40

therapeutically that's where working with someone, it's quite difficult to do on your own.'cause it's almost, you can't be both parts. You need someone else. I use hypnosis, which is a great way of working directly at source. So you can call up your inner child and people can often create a very visual image and they'll say, oh, it's me and I've got a red pitiful dress on. Or, it's me and I've got little gray shorts on and, my hair's wacky. And they can really identify with that child. Because the subconscious likes to think in pictures. We imagine in pictures, we dream in pictures. So you create an image that is a representation of that neurological network that is creating the feeling. We then work with it and we say bring in your parent part. What are your values? What are your beliefs? I'm actually, I know I'm a good person. Again, go back to that example. I know I haven't stolen anything since then, so it's okay. You made one mistake, you learn from that mistake. All's good. You don't need to be guilty anymore. If you are aware that you've got an inner child that's uncomfortable in any way, that is, whether it's anxious, guilty scared, whatever it may be, is. Don't be embarrassed. Therapy is not a negative thing, and I get really frustrated when people say, oh, I'm seeing a therapist as if they've just admitted they've got a sexually transmitted disease or something. It's just if if you wanna learn to drive, you get a driving instructor. If you want to learn to cook you, you go to someone that's a chef. So if you want to learn how to use your mind, go with someone that's trained to help you do that. And we just call that people, that personal therapist. Yeah. If you want to get physically fitter, you go to the gym and you get a personal trainer. I'm a mental, I'm a mental personal trainer or a personal trainer of the, of mental health. That's probably a better way rather than mental personal trainer. I probably am. And that's okay. If you want to make a change and you're struggling to do it on your own, go to someone that can help you. You will get fit if you go to the gym, but if you don't really know how to use the machines and how to put a balanced exercise plan together, you probably won't get fit as quick as whether you employ a personal trainer who's gonna get you there much quicker. And the benefit being, if you work with a personal trainer, you then learn how to use the machines. You then learn how to put a program together and you can go and do it on your own. You don't need to have a personal trainer for the rest of your life. And that's exactly the same with therapy. Most people see me for between four and eight sessions because my aim is to give them the skills so that they can perpetuate, maintaining and developing their mental health without me.

James 53:23

Yeah. Thank you very much, Caroline. How can people get in contact and what do you offer?

Caroline 53:32

I have kind of two camps, so I love working with people one-to-one. So if something in the chat today or any of the other podcasts that James has done has peaked something and you think, yeah, I need a bit of a, I'm gonna stick with it now, a mental personal trainer, then I would love to, to have a chat. The way that process starts, we just have a really. Informal phone conversation because one of the most important things for a successful outcome is you need to feel really happy with the therapist that you're working with. Yeah. I'm not everyone's cup of tea and that's okay. So that first conversation is all about just checking, is the chemistry there? Does it feel like the right thing to do? And if it is brilliant we then move forward from that point. If it's not, I say I think you probably need someone that you know, you might need a male. A male approach might be better to you or you might need someone. I push people quite hard. You might need a bit of a softer, gentle approach, in which case I know and trust this person, go to that person. So once you've got the chemistry in place, we then follow a therapeutic path. And the work that I do with everyone is completely individualized. So I don't do packages, I don't do systems. Everyone is unique. So the work that I do with people is unique. I work in a the floor here, it's like a first first floor. And I say, I come up the stairs with no idea what I'm gonna do. And the clients, they're going, oh my goodness, you dunno what you're gonna do. I say, but I've got this massive great toolbox. And as we start talking, I'm like, ah, the tool that's best for you is this one. And then I teach them how to use that tool and give them that tool so they start to build their own toolbox up. And when their toolbox is big enough, then they don't come back. And that's absolutely fine. So on the therapy side of things, I work with people one-to-one. They can come to see me. I'm based just outside Salisbury and wheelchair. But we can also work online because the work that I do is just as effective over remotely than it is in person. My, the other area of work that I do is public speaking. So I can go and share some of these tips and tools, like what if and flip it to to people in companies, in audiences, at events and in education. So I've worked not so much in primary schools because some of the children are a little bit young for some of this, but largely secondary schools. Six forms universities because that age, oh, sorry. Older teenage group, the anxiety levels in that particular level of society are just growing exponentially. And I see just as much value in teaching 200 children, three tips that collectively when they all use and all start helping each other a bit like my daughter around the table with her friend, they all start to help each other. Then the culture. I've seen the culture of a whole six form change just by one technique of someone was saying to another, is what you're worrying about real or imagined? Almost back to where we started, is it just a thought that you're worried about? Because as soon as it brings you into your conscious, I'm worrying about something that isn't real. We then go, why would I do that? That doesn't make sense.

James 56:39

Yeah.

Caroline 56:40

Yeah a local school here, a taught order, sixth form. Just simply ask each other. If you see a friend worrying, just say to them, real or imagined, and the anxiety levels plummeted. Exam results rocketed. It's so simple. That's the other side of my business is doing public speaking. I say whether it's in schools, whether it's in networking groups, business organizations or companies. A few small techniques when used cumulatively by a lot of people create a tidal wave of change.

James 57:13

I can imagine, actually. Yeah. Thank you very much, Caroline.

Caroline 57:19

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, James.

57:24

Thanks for tuning in to Man a Quest. Find meaning if today's conversation sparked something in you, take a moment to reflect, then take a step. Remember, real growth comes from action, not just insight. If you found value in this episode, share it with a friend. Leave her a review, or reach out and let me know what resonated. Your feedback helps shape the journey we are on together. For more conversations like this, make sure to subscribe and stay connected. You can also follow me on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn for updates, tools, and upcoming guests. Remember. It's not about having the answers. It's about daring to look.