Ep. 1: Kill or be Killed w/ Josh Persons

What truly separates extraordinary performers from everyone else? In this profound conversation with former professional golfer Josh Persons, we peel back the psychological layers that define elite achievement across sports, business, and personal development.

Drawing from their 30-year friendship, host Nick Lakoduk and Persons explore the mindset that propelled athletes like Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods to legendary status – not just exceptional talent, but an unwavering, almost ruthless focus on winning at all costs. "They are literally going for one thing and they'll do anything to get there," Persons explains, highlighting how truly exceptional performers prioritize results over relationships or public perception.

The discussion takes fascinating turns as they examine whether hating to lose is more powerful than loving to win, with Persons candidly sharing how childhood experiences shaped his competitive fire. "It's got to be fun for kids and something that they want to do," he reflects, noting how early successes create essential momentum like "watering a plant" that fuels continued growth.

Perhaps most surprising is their exploration of the fear of success that haunts even elite performers. "If somebody said they were not afraid to succeed, I'd tell them they're a liar" Persons states, challenging conventional wisdom about fearlessness. This vulnerability creates a refreshing counternarrative to typical success stories.

As the conversation shifts to Persons' transition from professional golf to business, listeners gain invaluable insights into transferable skills and how to recognize when priorities have evolved. His perspective on regret – that the most troubling failures are those we can't understand, not those where we clearly fell short – offers a powerful framework for processing setbacks in any field.

Whether you're an athlete, business professional, or simply someone striving for excellence, this episode delivers profound wisdom about maintaining focus, handling adversity, and defining success on your own terms. The conversation ultimately circles back to Earl Nightingale's timeless definition: "Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal."

Transcript

Introduction and Old Friendship

Nick Lakoduk 0:33

Josh, good evening. How are you? Well, how are you? I'm good man, I'm good. I appreciate you taking some time this evening to come over and hang out a little bit. It's been a long time in the making and, for those of you joining in, thank you for joining us this evening. I'm pleased to welcome Josh Persons to the pod here on the Time and Energy podcast. Pleased to welcome Josh Persons to the pod here on the Time and Energy podcast.

Nick Lakoduk 0:55

And, in interest of full disclosure, josh and I go back 30 years. Yes, sound about right. Yeah, so you know there's a lot of history that I know that I, you know, could probably endeavor, probably endeavor to do a, a, a solo pod about your life, but that wouldn't be very interesting. Careful how you use that Touche, touche. Well, no, thanks for taking the time. So, um, you know, as we've, as we've gotten to know each other over the years, I've, I've always found it interesting. I mean just kind of your journey, um, and we'll get on to that here in a second. But, um, you know, maybe tell me a little bit if you don't mind. I mean, what brings you here tonight? I mean, why, why, why the willingness to sit down and have the conversation and and uh, just interested what, what your perspective is.

Josh Persons 1:50

Well, um, well, first of all, you already touched on it. You know we're we're good friends and have been for a long time, so you're always curious what, what your buddies are up to, what they're into. We've had probably many of these conversations throughout the years, just not with a microphone in front of us. That's very true, so Very true, Just to kind of see what's going on. And yeah, have a good have a good talk.

Nick Lakoduk 2:17

Love it, man, I love it. Well, to get us kicked off, you know you've had I would say from my perspective at least a very interesting journey, you know from from childhood all the way to today. You know really well known obviously, in this area around. You know golf and things of that nature, and even back into high school basketball and whatnot. But in the vein of the pot itself, you know just thinking about top performance, right, you know what separates good from great. You know the one percenters.

Nick Lakoduk 2:52

What is it about those individuals Maybe that you've come across in your time, cause I don't know about you. I mean, I feel like you spend enough time with somebody you can, you can sort of just look at them and be like, oh okay, that guy's or that gal, they're just built different, right, I mean, they just operate in a different way, maybe I've just a different way of going about things. So you know, starting kind of at a 50,000 foot level and we'll dig down into some of the, the unique parts. But are there any individuals that come to mind when you, when you hear that, when I say that, just people that are sort of built different?

Josh Persons 3:27

Yeah, and I mean I don't I don't think we even need to name friends on this podcast for that, but you certainly can with that. But if you want to talk about, obviously, sports figures, that everybody knows, you know I was a little bit lucky, tipped off a little bit about what we're going to talk about, so I've had some time to think about it, right, and it's not like I haven't thought about this like what separates men from boys, so it's interesting. I haven't thought about this like what separates men from boys, so it's interesting. And you know, I've spent some lonely nights on the road and what you think about.

Josh Persons 4:02

That stuff pops into your head and as you get older, retrospect right, hindsight's, 20-20. You've got a lot more experience under your belt. There's a lot of things that go into, like what you think about and why somebody is as good or excels or whatever it is that they're doing. And honestly, I wish I could, I wish I had the perfect answer, but my view is that they're not only talented right in what they do, but they're like singular, focused on something, whether that's sports, whether that's their job, whether that's a specific task that helps them perform their job, and they are strictly results oriented. I think that's why you see the polarization. Like take Michael Jordan he wasn't liked by everybody. He wasn't liked by his teammates, not all of them anyway.

Josh Persons 5:10

But if you look back at it, he's loved because of how intense and he only cared about one thing being the absolute best and winning Like he could live with. Anything else Doesn't matter. If people hated him for it, loved him for it, he didn't care. It was at the end of the day. I have my mindset on this and, yeah, he probably treated people like crap along the way for lack of a better term but it didn't bother him. And I think you see some really talented people or even really capable people that still excel at things, but don't get to that level because in the back of their mind they're worried about what other people think about them.

Nick Lakoduk 6:06

You think that's the main reason is just that that they're they're worried about maybe not to put words in your mouth, but I mean just focus more on kind of what other people think, as opposed to what's possible or what they're able to achieve.

Josh Persons 6:19

And that's a little short-sighted, I guess the way I say that, but I think more from the person that does succeed and they see nothing else. Whether it's intended or not right, they don't see the pitfalls, they don't see the ramifications of their actions. They are literally going for one thing and they'll do anything to get there.

Nick Lakoduk 6:44

So it begs the question. I mean, you know Michael Jordan obviously. Well, I shouldn't say obviously, because I suppose there's a few LeBron James folks out there that would look at him as perhaps the greatest to ever live. I personally would happen to disagree with that statement, and I don't know if that's a generational thing or what, probably a little bit of both, but there's a cost to that Total. So how do you reconcile that? And then maybe the second part of that question is what is your definition of success?

Josh Persons 7:20

I wish you would have tipped me off to that question. Um, um, I don't know. I don't know how you reconcile it. I think the only thing you can do in assisting others, whether that's your children or somebody you're mentoring or somebody that you care about, is to know, or let them know, that there is going to be ramifications for your actions, whatever that is, or your goals Positive, negative, you name it and it's not just from other people, it's just, you know you might hurt yourself along the way. I don't know, um, you know Tiger, look at him. He's hurt all the time, but he did those things because he had one goal in mind. Um, so it's just preparing somebody to understand that. And if they can understand that and put that aside and accept those consequences, whatever it is social backlash, injuries, personal life failures, you name it you'll get there. I promise you'll be one of the top performers, if not the top. But are you willing to wear that?

Nick Lakoduk 8:43

Yeah, well, it's, it's the, it's the price of success, right, there's a lot that goes into it. Obviously, you know time generally, right to practice, malcolm Gladwell would suggest, you know, the 10,000 hour rule or what have you? Um, and time is static as we, as we talk a lot about on the pod and as part of the time and energy you know umbrella is. You know time is static and you know everyone gets 24 hours a day. How a person chooses to utilize those 24 hours, um, in my humble opinion, again, you know, really defines number one a person's value system, right? I mean, how are you spending your time? Who are you spending it with? Where are you focusing? Again, that energy that is elastic, that kind of, you know, waxes and wanes based on the stimuli that you receive. And so, you know, I think Tiger Woods is a really, really good example.

What Separates the Good from Great

Nick Lakoduk 9:39

Charles Barkley had a great quote back in the nineties where he was asked about, you know, some of his I don't know if exploits is the right word, but certainly some of the things he was doing off the court, whether it's, you know, gambling, or, or you know going out to clubs or whatever. And he was just very straightforward and just said hey look, I'm. I've never asked to be a role model, right? You know it's. It's not up to me to not be myself. Um, it's really up to the individuals who are watching me do what I do, and if they choose to internalize some of the things that I'm doing outside the basketball court, that's really kind of on them. I thought that was a really interesting way to look at that. And, um, he definitely received some, some backlash for that.

Nick Lakoduk 10:19

Uh, tiger, same thing, right, I mean, he, he went through, god man, it's fascinating If you were to tell me well, more than 10 years ago now, but 2013, I think, when he had sort of worked his way back from the scandal you know in in 08, 09. And then, uh, I think, is when we had some of his first injuries, you know, in like 10 and 11, and then came back in 13, one Bay Hill and he won like five times. It's like, well, there's no way in in hell. This guy isn't going to break the major record. In my mind at that time and it was it's just been like a constant battle for him to even get to a point. Now, of course, he wins the 2019 masters, but switching to now over to golf a little bit. I mean, I, what is it? What is it about Tiger Woods in your mind that that made him so unbeatable at the time?

Josh Persons 11:43

I mean I relate. Obviously he's got some natural God-given gifts, but it's. I mean there's tons of cliches and you don't realize what they really mean until you're older. Kill or be killed that's how those guys think the Tiger Woods, the Michael Jordans. Tiger didn't care what people thought about him. Clearly you know. Yeah, I mean, in reality he didn't. That didn't even cross his mind. Yeah, if he won that took care of everything. Yeah, if he won that took care of everything and there was nothing going to stop him other than all the stuff he did to his body that just broke down.

Nick Lakoduk 12:29

You can make the argument that the only thing that stopped him was himself.

Josh Persons 12:33

Correct. What made him good is what also hurt him, I mean essentially. So I mean there's too much of a good of your upbringing and just kind of how you found yourself being a highly decorated athlete.

Nick Lakoduk 12:46

Just you know the circle that you ran with. Whatever it is, what are some of the things that you look back on and say these were very defining, either moments or individuals or things that got you to you know, through those times and into a high level of success.

Josh Persons 13:33

Well, first, let's slow down with the highly decorated athlete Humility is good.

Nick Lakoduk 13:39

That's good, that's good, that's good.

Josh Persons 13:42

But second, I mean you know some of it, like I said, is natural, right, like I don't know if it's something you can program into somebody or not, but it's a passion, it's an, an anger, it's a drive, right, different words you use for it. Hating to lose more than anything is your number, and you can see it on kids's face, right, you can see it on people's face, doesn't matter what it is, when you can see it, when it happens, if they lose and people call them sore losers, if you can. You know, I think a good parent's job is to understand that it is good to feel that way, but you got to swallow it and hide it the best you can, right, you don't have to show it, you don't have to be emotional in that moment To other people. Your yes, absolutely, because that means you care, that means we got a chance here. And then you know, my life experience was, I mean, good from that aspect. I had a dad that never said no to an opportunity, like he would do anything to just to give me the opportunity.

Josh Persons 15:04

And then I was lucky to. You know, it's got to be fun for kids and something that they want to do. I was lucky. I had I would almost call it like segmented friends. I had a crew of guys that played basketball all the time. That's what we did every day. I had a crew of friends that played golf every single day, and that's what we did. So there was fun, there was competition, there was kids that hated to lose and it made everybody better not just me, right, and the hope is that you use those things towards something constructive whether that's I don't know, it doesn't matter. If it's schoolwork band, you name it, and that you have somebody there. You know that keeps it fun too, because you do need that or you will burn out. So it's gotta be something that you enjoy doing, that you're absolutely motivated to do. And then you got to have some successes along the way and kind of the. It's like, you know, watering a plant, I don't know you know what I mean.

Nick Lakoduk 16:14

I do.

Josh Persons 16:15

It needs its. It needs the fuel to keep the fire burning in there. So that's just the way I look back at it is. That's how my life kind of evolved on it. And then the hard part, though, is, as you get older, those other things do creep in your mind, and those that continue to excel don't seem to be phased by that Right, by which part exactly? I would say distractions, you know what I mean. Like they still have their one focus and it. Whatever they're doing to get there, they're not phased by the ramifications of that.

Nick Lakoduk 16:53

Earl Nightingale. Does that name ring a bell to you?

Nick Lakoduk 16:57

at all, yeah, okay, so. So Earl Nightingale, does that name ring a bell to you at all? Yeah, okay, so. So Earl Nightingale, famous, had a radio show on WGN in Chicago, and I want to say the forties and fifties, and kind of known as the, the father of human developments, or personal development is probably a better way to put it and influenced other individuals like you know, bob Proctor and Tony Robbins, right, some of those folks that many people know.

Nick Lakoduk 17:20

But he was influenced by an individual named Napoleon Hill, and Napoleon Hill wrote a book called Think and Grow Rich, and a lot of the premise that kind of is the through line between you know, whether it's Napoleon Hill, all the way up to Tony Robbins, and some of those individuals is exactly what you've just described, which is, you know, aligning aligning a goal right, aligning a focus, aligning yourself to something. And then and then Nightingale's probably most famous quote, and one that I just I love myself is success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal. So you kind of unpack that a little bit. What does that mean? It's like all right, well, you're worthy ideal as an individual, right Could be, I want to play in the PGA tour. And so a progressive realization of something is is pretty straightforward, but it's seeing those positive steps. Like you described is like you know you can have a passion for something um, you know you can enjoy doing something right, but you suck at it.

Developing Athletic Excellence

Nick Lakoduk 18:30

But you suck at it right now, the way I, the way I always sort of looked at it and and this is this also comes from, you know so the, the, the Carol Dweck concept of mindset, which is, you know, you know, do hard things, but but as a parent or as a, as a mentor or what have you, you know, continue to try to, you know, produce a mindset in others that is, um, not fear-based in the sense that, well, I don't want to do something because I'm not good at it or I'm afraid I'm going to lose, right, I do something because I enjoy it. Now, if you have some of those positive successes along the way, well, that just fuels the fire for continuing to want to practice. So I think back to you know, when you were in, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh grade, maybe even earlier, and, uh, there were very few times when I would would go up to Edgewood golf course. Uh, I've been for context, I think you know, I was 1998, from Fargo North, you were 2002, correct, yep?

Nick Lakoduk 19:31

So, so a few years older, but there were very few times that I would go up to edge with golf course and I did not see you there. Probably, true, chipping, putting, primarily chipping, or putting, or playing, but primarily chipping or putting, if you look back at that time in your life. What was it about golf that you just continuously wanted to keep going back?

Josh Persons 19:59

Well, you know, at that age we're lucky, we're a product of our environment. Here they have programs for kids, so you get to see some successes. That's huge number one. Two like I said, I had friends there with me. I wasn't doing it by myself. I mean, I guarantee you, all those times when you came up there and saw me, I wasn't there solo.

Josh Persons 20:25

Whether it was, you know, I can name their names, but, um, it's funny, I might have been there every time, but it might have been a different crew of friends every day, right, right. So I might've been getting double the practice, but I had a camaraderie, right. Those were the guys I got along with, those are the guys I hung out with and that's what we did. That was just our social thing. So it was kind of killing two birds with one stone, right, you're getting that social fulfillment plus the competitive side of it and getting better at something that you might not even know at a young age, right. And then you have some successes in the tournaments and stuff and programs that they have throughout the area. I mean, that's why do you think we've had golfers come out of this area? It's because it's planted that seed from so young. You can see the successes of people coming out of here, so I think that's a huge part of it I don't know how else to describe it and the places I would say that struggle. Just don't have that.

Nick Lakoduk 21:30

Well there's, yeah, the cost prohibitive nature of it in other parts of the country. Right and just access right to that environment. I think is a great point. What was your first big success?

Josh Persons 21:44

in golf? Well, it depends. It's relative right For you.

Nick Lakoduk 21:49

In your mind right as you think about the things and the mile markers that you hit, to keep feeling that fire for you personally.

Josh Persons 21:56

You know like we do that, and then you know like we do that, and then I you know, like the things that I remember, like the one of the first things I remember is like I had a little taped up club and I'm on a par three, I think. I duffed it off the t-box and then it's a three iron that's cut down to a foot long and I made it from the fairway. That's a birdie, right, I think it's all in. I was like five years old. And then it goes into the like. My next major memory is an actual hole-in-one at eight. You know what I mean. So, and then it goes into. You probably skip a few years. I remember the battles of the Ironman and the Junior All-City and I mean we were playing in tournaments all the time and against your buddies, against guys you don't know, and you have some money you don't have.

Nick Lakoduk 22:43

Yeah.

Josh Persons 22:44

Yeah, dad's money. So it just, like I said, those are the memories that I have from really young. And then it kind of spirals right, like things get a little more serious. So it changes like as you get into high school and for me it was still fun and and not that serious until, oh, there's national junior tournaments and then it's like whoa, this is a different animal. Like kids are marking their ball and lining it up. They're not putting with mud all over the ball. You know what I mean.

Josh Persons 23:14

Like uh, so things just progress and you get exposed to that stuff. You see other things. You see ball. You know what I mean. Like uh, so things just progress and you get exposed to that stuff. You see other things. You see, you know bigger ponds, bigger fish, um, and when you start having some successes, seeing what they're doing, compete with them again, you just keep going to a another level. So I mean those are the memories that I have really from childhood up. I mean that's kind of it. It's funny how you say that. And then you know, through college, through professional golf, through work, right, your first sale, like holy cow. Your boss, like pets you on the back and says doesn't that feel good, you know you go get another one. That's a success, right?

Nick Lakoduk 24:01

Well, you mentioned something earlier and you said you know just that concept of hating to lose, and that's one of my favorite interview questions when we're interviewing for salespeople. In my role, in my current role, which is you know what would you say that you, or more, describes you, you know? Do you hate? Say that you, um, or more describes you, you know, do you? Do you hate to lose or love?

Josh Persons 24:20

to win. So it's easy to say, right, cause it's becoming more of a popular interview question Um, I, I, well, I can easily say it and I could tell you why. I think the real question is give me an example, like tell me why, cause anybody can say they hate to lose, or anybody can tell me they hate like to win, um, but but why is that? The most important thing to you, I think is the real question, or the root of the question, um, that you need to be asking. Give me an example, right?

Nick Lakoduk 24:54

I think you know what we're trying to snuff out there in that question, at least when we're going through the process, is, you know, in a sales arena, right? You know if you're you know working through a big opportunity and you know you lose versus, you know winning, you know the kind of the emotional connection that exists and the way that people process losing versus winning, right? So, as an example, if you were to ask and Tom Brady's got some great interviews on this, objectively the most decorated quarterback, arguably the best to ever do it right, that success for him or winning Super Bowls was sort of just a product of the process. But he's also made the comment that you never forget the losses. So in this particular interview he was citing specific plays, specific downs and distances, specific time on the clock, specific players on the field of his Superbowl losses. But if you were to ask him about some of the victories, I mean he knew a lot, don't get me wrong. He knew a lot, but it was less fresh in his mind. Why do you think that is?

Josh Persons 26:17

I think that's the characteristics of the person, because I could give you an example that's the complete opposite of that. Jack Nicklaus, yeah, he doesn't remember one shot of any tournament that he lost. I think there's 30 for 30 on it or something.

Josh Persons 26:35

Yeah, it's fascinating when he's like I don't really remember what happened there, but if you ask him when he wins, he's like oh yeah, this is what I was feeling over that putt, this is what I was feeling over that shot. This is how I pulled it off. This is what happens on 16 at Augusto, because the Rays Creek pulls it this way. When you think it's going this way, I mean so it's different for every guy. So I think that's the reason. Like, that interview question is a little bit nuanced. You got to ask the why, right, yeah, absolutely yeah and it's weird.

Josh Persons 27:06

When I think about that for myself and I'll answer it without you even asking me, I guess I'm weird. The only thing I can really say is the anger that comes out of losing for me is I don't know why it's just there. It would be like Tom Brady. I would say I relate more to Tom Brady than I do. Jack Nicklaus, maybe it's because you know I try to think about that. I don't know the exact answer, but I also am uncomfortable speaking in front of people. You know what I mean. Like that. That actual trophy ceremony is weird. It's awkward. When you win something, it's different. You never get used to that, you know, I don't know how else to say it. Like it's just not my comfort zone, but that's the last thing on your mind, because it hurts worse and I'm more mad when I lose than I am about doing the rest of it.

Nick Lakoduk 28:12

That makes that certainly interesting.

Josh Persons 28:15

You know, I love that.

Nick Lakoduk 28:17

You know, knowing you as well as I do over the years, I mean I think one of the best qualities that you have for sure, that I would say likely goes overlooked, is your humility, just in general.

Nick Lakoduk 28:29

I mean, I've been over 30 years and I'm I'm being dead serious, I mean I have I would have to sit and think for a while to recall a time that you, you spoke negatively about somebody that you did not give an abundance of gratitude where appropriate for any successes. I've never seen you in a position where and I mean of gratitude where appropriate for any successes I've never seen you in a position where and I mean you're as you're, as competitive and stubborn as the day, as long but you, you've always gone above and beyond to honor the you know, quote unquote commitments that you've had specifically, and my, my exposure, excuse me, is, is more in golf related, just in the times that I've been fortunate to hang out with you there. As an example, uh, colin Morikawa got roasted this week because he skipped his you know, his, his, his duties to visit with the with the press last Sunday at Bay Hill, and I heard him talk about that in his presser this week and he had just hit the comedy. He's like, look, he's like, and I'm him talk about that in his presser this week and he had just made the comment.

Nick Lakoduk 29:35

He's like, look, he's like, and I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he's like I was mad, and I've always been taught that if you feel like you might say something that you're going to regret, don't put yourself in a situation to say something that you're going to regret and that is eloquent in its brevity. You know, it's like you feel sometimes, like these reporters are looking for that right, more so than they're looking for a positive comments or something right, there's something that is going to get clicks something that's going to get people to.

Nick Lakoduk 30:08

I don't know buying papers is the thing anymore that's going to get people to. I don't know, buying papers is the thing anymore.

Josh Persons 30:13

But I think that's a learned skill Because I guarantee you he's the same as me. He would want to break everything in sight, lose his mind because he lost. He knows he's got nobody to blame but himself. Like, but I was taught and if I wasn't taught that, I mean I've. I've used this example a few times. My dad saw me throw a club. His answer was okay, that was your one time you do it again, your clubs are broken and you won't play again. Well, so it was taught that it is okay to be that mad, it is okay to be that frustrated. It is a learned skill of how to deal with it in the proper way. I mean, does that make sense?

Nick Lakoduk 31:10

You've just described the entire concept of time and energy and emotional intelligence basically in a golf example.

Love of Winning vs. Fear of Failure

Nick Lakoduk 31:16

Right, I mean life, as they say, are not the things that happen to us, it's the way in which we respond to them. Right, and also emotional energy. As I see it and as I study, it is exactly that right. I mean, how does a person become aware of what makes them mad? How does a person understand the feelings or the emotions that are perhaps bubbling up inside them based on certain stimuli that they're receiving? And then what do they do with that information? It's the stimulus gap response type concept. If it's a learned skill, how did you learn that?

Josh Persons 31:57

I mean, above and beyond that, one example yeah, I mean it's repercussions, right, like it's totally in my world. That's the only thing I know how to relate. Maybe I'm like more in tune with dogs, like if they do something wrong they get bit by another dog and they don't do it again, right, I am of the belief that it was. It was repercussions Like I would. My dad knew that golf mattered to me, so if he took that away from me, that was a big enough repercussion. But that was reinforced up to that age where I knew if he said it it was going to come true. How old were you at that point? Well, I know exactly where it happened, so I can tell you where it happened.

Josh Persons 32:46

Number six at El Zagal. Oh okay, so I was 10, probably Okay, so I was 10. Probably okay. Um so, but there had been plenty of reinforcements my whole life to know that something was going to happen if I didn't, you know, straighten up or or act differently. So but it's like that in life, like if the, if the repercussion is enough or the correct repercussion for you, you won't do it again. Right, you might go through the situation again hopefully not but you're gonna feel that emotion again, because there's always something else that comes up that creates that emotion. Um, it's just learning how to deal with it better. I, I don't know how else to say that or verbalize it.

Nick Lakoduk 33:37

I love it. I, I think it's so interesting. I mean I, I, I don't think we've ever we've ever given Dovin Dove, given Dove.

Nick Lakoduk 33:41

Dove this deep on this particular line of of thinking before, or at least that I can recall. You know there's there's certainly a, there's certainly a, there's certainly a fear-based tenants there, which isn't always inappropriate. By, by the way, right, I mean you, you see a, a lot of coaches, parents, you know, I mean, of course, the. The ideal way to go about it is, you know, positive reinforcement and you know, reinforcing, enforcing, excuse me, reinforcing the things that go really, really well. What was that part of your environment growing up to, when it came to golf or athletics with, with, whether it's your dad or your mom or whomever else?

Josh Persons 34:25

Yeah, but it's the, it's the impacts, like as you get older, you realize that, right, like, but you don't know it in the time it's. I don't, I don't, I've gotten like, I don't want to use these dumb analogies.

Josh Persons 34:42

But, like I've gotten big into dog training, right, the the reward for them, like in hunting, is not the treat that you gave them for listening, right, the reward is the task that you asked them to do. So if they keep doing that task they get happier and happier and happier. It keeps happening. Not the treat at the end of the prize at the end of the tunnel. So it's funny. You look back at those things and like for lack of a better term, the treat was is that I got to keep going to tournaments. I got to keep playing basketball. I got to, you know, do those things because that was the reward. It wasn't that my dad bought me something or gave me a bigger Christmas present because I was a good kid that year. You know what I mean. The reward was the task at hand.

Nick Lakoduk 35:41

And when do you think you realized that? I mean today.

Josh Persons 35:50

Yeah, you don't realize that stuff till you, till you've been through it. Like that's the hardest part, I think in my naivety of growing up is people can tell you this stuff till they're blue in the face. All these analogies that I've used, all of these little things that people, all these little things that people say, these little one-liners, things that people, all these little things that people say these little one-liners, they don't make sense a lot of times, till it's almost too late, right Till you can reflect and relate your own experiences to it. That is the hardest thing. How do you get through? Is is not just another saying like, basically, how do you get them doing it without them knowing, because if you just say it it won't happen? The true masterminds in coaching, in everything, teaching, mentorship, they don't even have to say these words, they're getting people. It's almost like manipulation. I mean, really is what it is.

Nick Lakoduk 36:51

There's a great. I don't know if you've spent any time or researched masterclass at all, no, you might've seen ads for it or what have you, but it's just, my colleague Reedstock got me into that or reminded me that it was a thing, because he had got it as a gift for Christmas and pointed me in that direction. And anyway, there is a program on there or a course. That's by Mike Krzyzewski, the former Duke basketball coach, and it's a. It's a values-based leadership type course and he goes through his entire leadership philosophy, brings back old players and they talk about just the value of culture and the value of, well, all of the things that went into Duke basketball and you know Duke was, was a nothing program, you know, before he came along and and he's, he speaks into that right he talks about you know, you, you can, it's almost. It's almost like the, the, the phrases, or the quips, or the, the, the, you know the words or the sentences.

Nick Lakoduk 37:51

I mean you know the words or the sentences. I mean they almost come after the fact, right, they come after that behavior has been modeled for others, because people will follow what they see, right, Not always what they hear, and if you're consistently modeling that behavior we talk a lot about this in sales leadership too, or any leadership for that matter. But you know, it's one thing to say the words, it's another, it's another thing to actually live by those values and do what it is. And that's really hard, really hard, it's really hard. And and so you look at, so to rewind a little bit, you go, you go back to like a Tiger Woods or Charles Barkley or Michael Jordan, right? I mean, you know clearly they placed winning on a pedestal, that it was near irrelevant to them what was left in their wake.

Josh Persons 38:45

Correct Bingo.

Nick Lakoduk 38:50

Tin Cup Right, 18th hole, US Open. 10 cup right, 18th hole, US Open. Hits what like four in the water, five in the water down to his last golf ball right and he makes it, you know. So, in your opinion, was he a success. Was Roy McAvoy a success In 10 cup? Nope. Was roy mcavoy a success in no cup? Nope.

Josh Persons 39:22

I, in an instant decision, I would say no you could probably talk me out of that, but I I agree with you. I'm just curious as to why. Because his there, there is a balance. I want to say to this where, like Michael Jordan, didn't let his blindness of winning make him do things that were detrimental to winning, like, yes, it might have been detrimental to his social life or his family.

Nick Lakoduk 39:51

Or his marriage. Yeah.

Josh Persons 39:53

Yeah, whatever, I don't know, you know, right. I don't know the answers to that. I don't know how happy he is outside of and nor should you care.

Nick Lakoduk 40:00

Right, exactly Right, it's not my yes, michael Jordan is there for our enjoyment, correct? I mean, ideally he's a good dude, right?

Josh Persons 40:14

Like ideally is a good dude right, like that's awesome and to see. I mean to see like what he was capable of doing is just the coolest thing in the world to aspire to. What that? Just that one thing. You don't have to take the rest of it, but no because. But he does what he has to take it all yeah he does, and I know nothing about that, so do I, so the people we work with you know, that's what's fascinating about. It is like and it's all different and it's all different.

Nick Lakoduk 40:35

It's all different, it's all different.

Josh Persons 40:38

Right, my experience is way different than yours, even though we're buddies. We did a lot of stuff together, but way different. So the tin cup thing, I'd say no, because his blind ignorance and albeit probably helped him to get to that position clouded his judgment to actually succeed.

Nick Lakoduk 41:03

I asked this question of another individual once before, and their comment was that subconsciously, perhaps, he did it on purpose.

Josh Persons 41:15

Very well could be true. It was just he was a self deprecating it's afraid of afraid of succeeding?

Nick Lakoduk 41:21

Yes, he never has before. Yep, I mean, you know, certainly at that level that thought ever crossed your mind?

Josh Persons 41:30

Absolutely.

Nick Lakoduk 41:32

And you're for you personally.

Josh Persons 41:33

Oh, 100%. Tell me more. I don't think. I mean from my shoes and my experience, if somebody said they were not afraid, or they were not afraid to succeed, I'd tell them they're a liar to their face. Why is that? I don't know, I just don't. I'd tell them they're a liar to their face. Why is that? I don't know, I just don't. I think that that's that's, it's human nature.

Nick Lakoduk 41:58

Cause you didn't want to give a speech holding a trophy.

Josh Persons 42:01

Maybe, yeah, I don't know, but there's so many other things that go into that, right, that's my weird thing, like there's, I mean, I don't know what other people's fears are. I don't know what their life experience is, right? Um, I guess you could maybe relate, because fear is also being vulnerable, right, maybe that's what I fear being vulnerable, being in front of somebody and opening up to them to the point where they could judge me. Right, that's probably where it comes from, would be my guess if I was a psychologist analyzing me right now. Well, we are analyzing you.

Nick Lakoduk 42:50

The tens of people that are listening are going to analyze you.

Josh Persons 42:53

But I just don't see that everybody's got a fear. There's a fight or flight response in everybody. It doesn't matter. They're not the same for everybody, but they have them somewhere no doubt. So if you tell me that you're not afraid of failure, failure is different. That's a vague term, right, I tell you, I'd call you a liar. That's my stubbornness coming out.

Nick Lakoduk 43:23

No, I love it, I. But what I, what I love, what I love about the way you've sort of phrased that and process that is, um, you know, fear of failures is rather trite in the sense that like, yeah, I mean nobody wants to fail, right, but I think fear of failures is rather trite in the sense that like, yeah, I mean nobody wants to fail, right, but I think fear of success is a different deal, and and that that brings in I believe to be true, my, my personal opinion, I mean that that that brings in some some unique, um, perhaps deep seated stuff, right, that insecurity whatever yeah.

Nick Lakoduk 43:53

Yeah, and and, and everyone has has has varying levels of insecurity and for various reasons, um, you know, I think one of the reasons I've personally had, um, a little bit more success personally and professionally, you know, recently is becoming okay with that you know, accepting sort of some of the insecurities that that exist and just owning them and sort of labeling them.

Josh Persons 44:23

You know, when some of these emotions arise or or things, and you know, gosh, it's um or knowing that you're doing like if, if you can lay your head on the pillow, knowing that you're you're doing it or trying to do it, right, whether you're right or wrong, right, Trying to do it with good intentions Cliche 101, right, but that's the impetus of Nightingale's quote.

Nick Lakoduk 44:48

And Nightingale's quote success is now I'm losing it, but success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal. So, as long as you maintain we made it full circle, we did, yeah, a couple of times actually.

Nick Lakoduk 45:08

But as long as you maintain that end goal right. But as long as you maintain that end goal right and he would suggest you know, write it down, keep in your pocket, review it a few times a day, look at it right. Make sure you're holding yourself accountable to having your actions and your day-to-day the time that you're using right.

Josh Persons 45:28

You know the concept that To me it's nefarious ways. You know the the concept that it's. It's. To me it's nefarious ways Like, if you get there in the wrong way, that defeats the purpose. Bingo, bingo. You're not going to be able to sleep at night.

The Tiger Woods Phenomenon

Nick Lakoduk 45:42

No, and you know, then, that that manifests an entirely different subset of questions and answers that we could, we could go down. So you mentioned some towards the beginning. Um, and answers that we could, we could go down. So you mentioned something towards the beginning, um, lonely nights on the road, so, um, fargo North, uh, and, and, and you know you were, there was some decoration state champion golfer, undefeated uh, basketball team last to do it. I think, uh think, if I'm not mistaken, I think that might've been one or two.

Josh Persons 46:16

Oh really Okay. I know it was one Okay. Maybe somebody did it recently Okay.

Nick Lakoduk 46:20

Okay, there's been a couple not a lot of teams that have that have ever done that Names in the paper as a, as a young kid, for you know, winning the iron man and you know all these, all these other awesome accomplishments from a golf perspective. And then, um, you know, parlayed that into, uh, an opportunity to go play golf down at kansas state. Um, you know, work your way, earn, earn a spot into the us amateur. Uh, take a dip over to the university of minnesota. Have some success there. Continue to continue your journey.

Nick Lakoduk 46:52

Talk to me a little bit about you know, in those experiences you still had a team around you, right, you know you think about high school golf, college golf, right You're? You're practicing just like you mentioned at at Edgewood when you're a young kid, with, with your buddies, somewhat similar. Now let's jump forward into your time as a professional golfer. A couple of things that slapped you across the face that maybe you didn't expect from that experience right off the bat, and maybe a couple of things that were just way different than you anticipated in just kind of what that professional motion looked like for you.

Josh Persons 47:30

Like transition. What slapped me in the face from college to the next level yeah, a couple of things I would say is it's? I mean, it's like anything right. You see somebody successful in business, you only see the top 10%. Same with golf or sports, whatever. You don't know how many guys are in the NBA DL, right, or whatever they call it. Now I mean that's pretty rude awakening driving through Oklahoma looking at an Atlas, trying to figure out where I'm going with my little flip phone, calling people because I'm lost.

Nick Lakoduk 48:10

Why didn't you just use Google Maps? They didn't have it.

Josh Persons 48:14

I actually had to print the directions before I went somewhere or read a map when I first started.

Nick Lakoduk 48:21

I'm laughing because I've lived that same life selling pharmaceuticals pulling into gas stations, in random spots, to be like where's your hospital. And you tell that to people now and they're just like you're crazy. Did you have running water? Yeah. So I mean, and you tell that to people now and they're just like you're crazy. Did you have running water?

Josh Persons 48:33

yeah so I, I mean it's some of that. I mean that's, but I mean more people know about that now because there's twitter that talk about it every day. It's, it's, but at that level it's still camaraderie, right, traveling circus, you're all kind of in it together, surviving. Um, it's actually the more successful people I would say would be more lonely because you're on your own. Everybody's doing their own thing. It's their, it's their job to only take care of themselves. Yeah, right, it's not as much about, hey, like college golf, yeah, you have to take care of yourself when you're playing, but you still have buddies there, like for every practice, before every round, like you're all kind of in it together, even though you got to go out and perform on your own. So it's just different. It's not like it's bad, it's a. It's a learning lesson, right, you learn other things, like you learn to grow up. You have to take care of yourself. Now, somebody doesn't book your travel for you, somebody doesn't pay your bills for you. I mean, I mean kind of so.

Nick Lakoduk 49:42

you were, you were fortunate enough to you know when you made that jump and it's you're. You're not alone in this. I mean. I think it's a pretty common tale where, um, new, new golfers or new, new, new, new professional golfers will align with the sponsor, of sorts, right To um, you know, help, help, pay the way, and, um, that makes a lot of sense because, you know, although there are a lot of professional golfers that come from wealthy backgrounds that have, you know, an abundance of money and then you could even look at you know time right, I mean, it certainly helps. When you grew up in an environment that you're in a 12 month warm climate, you're a member at the best clubs in that area, you can take private planes to junior tournaments, right, like that certainly is an advantage.

Josh Persons 50:28

Pretty rare breed, I think.

Nick Lakoduk 50:30

But you know going from where you know you're, you're getting your college paid for you're, you're in that environment where you're alongside, you know teammates that are likely, you know, going down the same path. And then you know flipping that switch to like, oh my gosh, like now I need to perform and compete because I'm spending someone else's money. There's no one else that's that's here, that necessarily is going to be pumping my tires because I'm competing against literally everybody. And you're driving through the middle of nowhere, Nebraska, at 1am Cause you got a Monday qualifier the next morning. What are the thoughts? Did I get it pretty close? Yeah, so how do you reconcile that that time where I'm sure you've had, where it's just like, what am I doing? Like why do I keep beating myself up for this? How do you work your way through that?

Josh Persons 51:20

I don't know. I guess I had a few of those phases and then obviously towards the end, like when I knew it was time to hang it up and try something different. But maybe you're so young and naive and resilient. But maybe you're so young and naive and resilient like it doesn't really phase you at the time, as long as you're having some success and can keep the ball rolling down the hill.

Josh Persons 51:41

Yeah, um, yeah I, it didn't phase me at the time. I mean, over time it would wear you out and I think that's what what happens, right? It's just a matter of how much fight you have in you and what gets to you right. And when your values change or your interests change, then it's time and you know, like deep down, you really know that's the best. That's the only way I can say. It is because, 22 coming out of college, it didn't phase me. Like, hop in a car, talk to your buddies on the way to the next event, figure it out Like, and it didn't matter if you stayed in a motel, six, that's all you knew.

Nick Lakoduk 52:21

Right, yeah, yeah. And there's, I'm sure, individuals that you've met along the way, that you know maybe or maybe not we're as as good as you are or at the, maybe the success that you had, but but chose to not give it a run you know, and that was better guys than me that didn't do it.

Josh Persons 52:41

Yeah, yeah, a lot better guys.

Nick Lakoduk 52:43

Yeah, and it's. I mean, hey, teach their own right, go for it. As, as I've been asked over the years, um by individuals, um, whether it's from a mentorship capacity or just a friendship capacity, it's like ah, you know, nick, what do you think and what would you do if you were me? You know, and I have the um, the benefit of hindsight, and being 45 years old now with a couple of kids, and it's like dude, you're 22. Are you as good at this question I've asked a few guys, are you? Are you as good at golf as you're going to get?

Josh Persons 53:19

There's, there's no way to answer that. Well, and that's.

Nick Lakoduk 53:22

That's where the mindset and my what I'm, what I'm searching for there is like do you think you can get better at it? Then by all means keep going right. Like how many times in one's life and I can tell you from at least again, an N of one at 45, I'm not sure that I allowed myself to get as good at anything because of some of that fear of success.

Josh Persons 53:46

How many times, how long, have you been in your role where you work right?

Nick Lakoduk 53:49

now.

Josh Persons 53:49

Well, I'm in my 13th year at dbi wex, yeah tell me the last time, tell me how long it's been since you haven't learned something if, if I don't learn something every day, that's on me exactly like, do you?

Josh Persons 54:08

it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, you're going to learn something. You're going to get better at it now. Now, your physical capabilities can. Sports are different. Your physical capabilities can wane at a certain point. So then you're kind of like, well, if what I'm learning isn't outpacing what my body can do, you're in the hurt bag.

Nick Lakoduk 54:35

And that's what you hear the comments a lot.

Nick Lakoduk 54:36

It's generally from football players, right, where it's like I want to go out on my own terms, you know, I want to make sure that I'm leaving the game when I want to leave, as opposed to that, because that just doesn't happen very often, right?

Nick Lakoduk 54:45

Um, generally it's injury or something of that nature. Younger guys that have just, you know, more talent and more more drive, more fire, more energy, you know, find themselves, um, you know, working their way up the depth chart, um, cool, well, a couple more, maybe more quick questions, uh, as we, as we wrap up our time and thanks again for taking some time um, this evening I just gen genuine fascination, as you know, about me, just around people and what makes people tick. I think we got there pretty well today. If you had to arrive at what was the one thing that you, if it was one thing or a couple of different things that you, or it was one thing or a couple of different things that you or that impacted and influenced you to make a career change from golf into, you know, kind of the career that you're in now, and how did you, how did you process that?

Josh Persons 55:49

I don't know if it's one thing. I think it's a culmination of things. What I thought were were advances in success at the time were waning right Um. Your interest change and by interest I mean things that weren't important to you when you were doing it are becoming more and more and more important, probably outvaluing the success in golf or whatever it is you're doing.

Nick Lakoduk 56:23

For example what?

Josh Persons 56:24

was that for you? Well, I mean, I was 31 years old and you don't like to compare yourself to others. We already talked about this, right, and what other people think. It's not about what other people think. But yeah, I'm 30, 31 years old when I quit playing golf and on the road, it's a very selfish thing. I was okay with that. But how long are you willing to before? Okay with that? But how long are you willing to before that starts creeping into your head, that that's more important than like a family or anything else that you want to do? Because I mean, the way I viewed it, the way I was living, it's not fair to have a family at the way I was doing things. I mean that's the most selfish thing on earth, I think you could do so.

Josh Persons 57:11

There was other things like, right, like, and I was dealing with injuries. Like just like everybody else, I've had 30 years of beating on my body and it it took a toll. My successes were waning. You know, I I lost my status on the tour I was on and did I want to start from ground zero again. Knowing that I'm still giving up all these things, I thought it was time.

Nick Lakoduk 57:34

Yeah Well, I know that wasn't an easy decision. I know you spent a lot of time processing that and was happy to be alongside you and have been hopefully at least talking through some of that stuff with you at the time that was 10 years ago already. Can you believe that?

Josh Persons 57:49

2009.

Nick Lakoduk 57:50

Nine years ago.

Josh Persons 57:51

Yeah, nine 2016.

Nick Lakoduk 57:53

Yeah, unbelievable.

Josh Persons 57:54

But it's no different in any career, right? It's true If it's not fulfilling or allowing you to fulfill whatever is most important to you. Most people change.

Nick Lakoduk 58:05

Or they don't.

Josh Persons 58:10

Or they important to you. Most people change, or they don't, or they just quietly quit. Yeah, right off the clock, that's. You know. I mean I call that change.

Nick Lakoduk 58:14

Right, amen, no 100.

Nick Lakoduk 58:15

Yeah, I think both things can be true right, you can have individuals that have just, uh, for whatever reason, uh, resigned themselves to not having their profession be something that fills their bucket.

Professional Golf and Life on the Road

Nick Lakoduk 58:28

Right, it is more just kind of a means to an end. I I I'm certainly not built that way, I know you're not, and that's sort of what I'm trying to try to gather through these conversations is, you know what? What are the? What are the items that exist within people that either find it okay to to make a take risk, I guess is probably the best way to say it right, I mean there's, there's risk in everything that you do. You know, maybe a little bit less risk moving from professional golf at age 31 into a more traditional career. But when you see guys that are and we know you know many of them are, a few of them at least right, it's like you know, go all in on one thing, you know, have a, have a victory, go all in, and the next thing, lose everything, go all in, and the next thing, and have massive success. And it's just, you know, that rollercoaster ain't for everybody.

Josh Persons 59:20

No, it's not. But that goes back to, you know, your fear of failure, right. And repercussions Like that repercussion is not big enough for them to not do it again. Right, that their repercussion has to be something else to motivate them to not do it.

Nick Lakoduk 59:36

Yeah, exactly Right.

Josh Persons 59:39

And it's. That's not a big enough motivator to not do it, because that doesn't bother them. Elon Musk, I do not care, right, he doesn't care about money.

Nick Lakoduk 59:52

So if he went broke, that wasn't didn't faze him, it doesn't faze him, and that, to me, is what's fascinating.

Josh Persons 59:58

I don't know what his motivator is. I don't know what his fear is. He's got one. Don't know what it is.

Nick Lakoduk 1:00:04

Unless he really is a cyborg.

Josh Persons 1:00:06

Certainly isn't having 16 kids that's not his fear.

Nick Lakoduk 1:00:11

All right, quick hit questions. What your personal best success in your golf career?

Josh Persons 1:00:24

I don't know, see, see, that's where I get. I'm different in some of those things. It's, it wouldn't. It wouldn't be winning a tournament for me, yeah, great, because the albeit, that's the end goal, right, but there, that's hard to say it's. There's not one particular tournament that stands out above the rest. It's, it's blips, it's like chunks of time, it's a maybe certain scenarios? I don't know, I can't answer that. I don't know the answer to that.

Nick Lakoduk 1:01:03

And I don't know if I know the answer to this but would would you set specific goals going into a season or or and I know your seasons were a little a little funky Cause there was, you know, once you sort of got a little bit more established up in Canada and then, you know, had a, had a cup, you know nationwide, or a web, I guess at the time. You know the goal obviously is try to start being able to set your own schedule. I remember when Hoagie I'm talking to him after he had some success early in the PGA tour, and it's like man, once you can sort of set your own schedule, it's like different animal, it's a completely different animal, right? So, um, but did, but did you set specific goals? You know you'll see Justin Thomas come on and be like I want to be top 25 and strokes gained here or there, like I I'm certain you didn't maybe do that but any, any mile markers that you set for yourself when it came to either the process or the results.

Josh Persons 1:01:54

No, um, I don't know it was. It was weird for me. I don't know if this is right or wrong, but this is. This is the way I did it. Um, no, I did not set like I need to win five times this year and one major. That's not. That wasn't my thing. I thought those would take care of themselves. That would be if everything panned out, that would be taken care of. It was weird, like my biggest frustrations were not. My goal was always whether it was putting Okay. It wasn't the result of it going in the hole, it was that that ball started.

Josh Persons 1:02:37

where I tried to hit it. Yep, you know what I mean I do. So it was such a smaller like and I had phases and that's what I consider my successes. Right, I had phases. Winning came when the phases all of the small phases happened at the same time. The frustrating part about that game is like you could have one phase that was unbelievably perfect and another phase it's like I've never done this before. What is going on? So that's how I it was weird I was always working to get whether that was get a ball to start online on the green, or always start and curve the right direction with shots or chips.

Josh Persons 1:03:25

Always get the right amount of spin that I was looking for or height that I was calling for in that shot. That was in judging lies out of the rough. That's how I judged it and I would say those. That's where I. It's hard to say my successes, because I remember phases like in Canada I went like three months and I couldn't have hit it better, but I could not put the ball into the ocean. It drove me bonkers, right. So I would never hit balls, but I was so fixated on correct correcting the putting and maybe that was a fault because over time I might've lost the hitting and the putting turned around Like you know what I mean. So it's always balancing. Maybe I was a little short-sighted and shouldn't have, but Well, how do you know, Right?

Nick Lakoduk 1:04:15

I mean, there's just you, you, you, just like I'm sure you do now in your career you know as a as a seller and an advisor like you, you just try to do the best you can with the information that you have at hand and make the best decisions Right and be at your best when your best is required, ideally, and put yourself in those, in those positions. You know brought up Jack Nicklaus earlier. He would always talk about like, and Tiger too. I just want to be there, I just want to be in the mix on Sunday, right, just give me a chance and if I can execute up to that point, right To, to have a sniff, whether it's the back nine on Sunday at Augusta or, you know, being in the final group or within, you know, within striking distance.

Nick Lakoduk 1:05:00

On Sunday. It's like, you know, tiger was unique because and maybe Jack was also, you know, I don't I don't specifically recall a lot of those moments because he was a little bit before our time, but then you got to a point with Tiger. If he was even in striking distance, I mean, guys would just fold. It's like they'd he knew he was going to win and everyone else did too.

Josh Persons 1:05:23

Because he'd done it so many times.

Nick Lakoduk 1:05:24

Because he'd done it so many times.

Josh Persons 1:05:25

It's just like discipline, like I always talk with my parents. I'd already been disciplined so many times and I knew he was going to follow through on it. That's why I wouldn't do it again. Yeah, just the same thing. I don't know if Jack was like that. I have a question for you Do you think Tiger's mindset changed and it adversely affect him over time, where he got into the mindset of wanting to have a chance? Was he always that way? Did Jack act that way? And was Tiger not that way at the beginning? Because I mean, he was stepping on the gas early on in his career and beating people like a drum. And yeah, he had some exciting moments when he started thinking that way and maybe gave a more opportunity. I don't know.

Nick Lakoduk 1:06:23

That's a good, that's a really good question. I, in my mind, the way I look at it is, he had, so he had so many positive outcomes to the responses that he was providing, to the stimuli he was getting. So, enter a tournament, right, tiaf win, Like that was like repeated, I mean hundreds of times, from when he was five till right, you know, you just keep going, and so I, I, I would think that at some point a guy's got to just think, well, I'm going to win them all, Right, and then, and then you just roll out of bed thinking that you've got, there's just no chance. I mean, and that mindset, right, is so ingrained that if I enter a tournament I'm going to win it, cause that's just what I do and that's just how I am. And so if I and I, you know, I would imagine you learn over time that there's going to be good players that you're going to be competing with more often, and so if I just have a chance, if I'm there, like I know I'm going to win and they know I'm going to win too.

Nick Lakoduk 1:07:29

I don't know. That that's kind of. I look at it. Um, I feel like it's interesting because Tiger specifically, really public meltdown, right. I mean just a, because you can't. You can't have a boat, you can't have your cake and eat it too, you can't be the most decorated and most recognizable maybe person in the world at that time certainly athletes in the world at that time above Michael Jordan, as they would say. They want to build you up and they want you just as badly to fall and they want to tear you down Right. And so it is sort of a double-edged sword in that regard, where you know it's like Icarus you fly too close to the sun, you're going to get burned and it's too bad, because there's a lot of guys out there that have done it the right way and I'm not saying Tiger hasn't done it the right way, but you almost become Done it the right way that we know about.

Josh Persons 1:08:32

That's true.

Nick Lakoduk 1:08:33

Yeah, there is that out there. There is that out there.

Josh Persons 1:08:38

You don't know, and it depends on perspective. Who are you talking to you?

Nick Lakoduk 1:08:42

think he was doing HGH.

Josh Persons 1:08:44

Tiger yeah.

Nick Lakoduk 1:08:46

No clue when he was dead lifting and going to all those sites with seals and stuff like that and just like.

Josh Persons 1:08:56

I'm not going to slander the man on a public platform.

Nick Lakoduk 1:09:01

No, what a nut job that guy was.

Josh Persons 1:09:03

I think he was. Yeah, I mean, I know, we know he's psycho about stuff. To the details we will never know.

Nick Lakoduk 1:09:10

Yeah.

Josh Persons 1:09:10

We're never going to be that close to him, so I don't know.

Nick Lakoduk 1:09:16

I don't either. I wouldn't, let me put it this way. I wouldn't be shocked if it came out that he was. But as the biggest Tiger fan I know that would be. That would be heartbreaking to think that that his run that was so influential to me and many would have been potentially tarnished.

Josh Persons 1:09:42

Do you think that's a tarnishment?

Nick Lakoduk 1:09:46

I do Do you that's a tarnishment.

Nick Lakoduk 1:09:48

I do, do you, I do? I think it would depend, right. I mean, if you look at the baseball deal that went down whenever that was 20 years ago, you know those few guys got pigeonholed right, and then it sort of comes out over time it's like, oh well, like kind of, everyone was doing it, everyone was doing it, right, yeah. So now I'm not saying it makes it right or wrong, it's just it certainly changes the narrative when you know if there really were five guys that were doing it. It's like if you got a juiced up Roger Clemens thrown to a juiced up Barry Bonds, well, two things are true. One, I want to see that, and two, like, who has the advantage? Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, I digress on that question. Okay, uh, transferable skills that you've identified, moving from professional golf into your insurance career.

Josh Persons 1:10:50

Well, I mean, your age old question is is hating to lose? You're still. It's because I care about what I'm doing. Right, it doesn't matter. If I didn't care, like if I didn't care about golf, I wouldn't have made it as far as I did. If I don't care about insurance, I wouldn't be successful in insurance. So one, you got to care. And then the sales aspect of it is is totally that I care, I don't want to do I? I take it personally when I lose, like what did I do wrong?

Nick Lakoduk 1:11:26

I want you know what I mean. Do you have a specific process in place for that? To to process those losses or wins, to like look back and be like, okay, what could I have done different in this presentation? Or how could I have presented this proposal differently? Or what you know what was. Was maybe I not visiting with the correct buyer? Or selling it to him in that way, that that, that, that type of stuff certainly, but it it takes a minute calling morikawa.

Josh Persons 1:11:52

For me it takes a minute like if you talk to me about that right after it I'd be like no, I didn't do anything wrong.

Nick Lakoduk 1:12:00

That guy sucks whatever but it's in you somewhere to to look back and reflect on it and be like totally.

Transitioning Away from Professional Golf

Josh Persons 1:12:06

But you got to calm down. You got it. Yeah, you got to chill out and then you got to look back. Like that's usually like a pillow talk with yourself probably takes that night cool down a little bit. What did I do wrong? Okay, how are the how did? What did I do? And then, based on why they said no when you asked them, you know like, or went a different direction, based on their responses you can kind of discern, like, what you missed or what you did incorrectly or the signals you weren't picking up on at the time, and it's actually really easy to figure that out it really is if you sit down and do that.

Nick Lakoduk 1:12:47

If you sit down to do that, you got someone that you trust to hold you accountable to that process.

Josh Persons 1:12:52

Yeah, most of the time, you can do it if you've done it long enough, had enough experience doing it. Now, if you're naive and you're new to it, yeah, you're not going to know any difference, just like anything. But it certainly helps to have somebody, once you've chilled out and you trust them, like you can be vulnerable with that person, cause if you're, if you're don't and you're not vulnerable, you'll never give them true answers.

Nick Lakoduk 1:13:16

Well, it's like a relationship. Yeah, it's it. There are so many, so many tangential things that, um, that are a through line in in personal, professional things, Right, I mean it's. You know, if, if you're the person that's constantly getting broken up with, you know, and you and you're, you come out the next weekend and you're just like, man, I can't find a, I can't find a girl. You know, there's no good girls out there and it's like, dude, maybe you should probably just look in the mirror, Like, maybe you're just the problem, Right.

Josh Persons 1:13:48

We've had that conversation before Been there.

Nick Lakoduk 1:13:51

But but and then? So, from a sales perspective, it's like well, you, you keep going to the well with the same presentation, the same proposal, the same discovery process, the same, whatever it is.

Josh Persons 1:14:00

And they're not the same person. They're not anything.

Nick Lakoduk 1:14:03

Bingo, it's like it's it's. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over and over.

Nick Lakoduk 1:14:07

It's expecting a different result, so that, so, we have to find a way to inject into our time that is static, right, an opportunity to reflect, pause, reflect, um, and process. You know, am I still going towards that goal? Am I still on a, on a trajectory? Right, that is, that is allowing me to get there. And you can have a. You can have a few of them, of course, right, but you know what are what? What does that path look like? Who do I have running alongside me that can keep me accountable to that goal? And then also making sure that I'm, um, you know, doing the right things along the way. Who, um, who's the best golfer you've ever played with along the way?

Josh Persons 1:14:47

who? Um, who's the best golfer you've ever played with? That's a great question. Um, I gotta name them. Yeah, uh, it's. I would say this is weird, random, but I don't know. Brunson lacasse is right there. Yeah, you've said that before. I watched him for two years University of Minnesota.

Nick Lakoduk 1:15:12

Right, yeah, like every day. Ah, I see yeah.

Josh Persons 1:15:17

Do amazing things. I don't know. It just seemed different, like he just always hit it right. If he did hit it weird weird it seemed like it was because he was dinking around, not doing something, but he always hit it correctly, always hit it the way he wanted to. Maybe lacked a little bit on the putter side, but I don't know to. I was just impressed with that because I've never seen anybody do it for that long, that good.

Nick Lakoduk 1:15:48

What kept him from massive success?

Josh Persons 1:15:53

I think life, if it was my outside analysis I mean he won on the what was the nationwide tour at the time, you know. Then got married, had a kid. He's from Australia, he's living in the States. Life changed quickly, priorities change, yeah. And you know like what worked for him? Whatever, maybe little minor thing in his ball striking wasn't quite there anymore, fell off just a frick and that's all it took. Maybe a little minor thing in his ball striking wasn't quite there anymore, fell off, just a frick and that's all it took. And priorities changed and he's back in Australia. Pretty goofy guy, right, funny, yeah, crazy, yeah, super funny.

Nick Lakoduk 1:16:45

Anything he said was funny because of his accent and he was funny on top of it, I remember meeting him when I came down to hang out with you one time in minnesota and I think it was a, I think it was moosehead, yeah, yeah, keg of moosehead, and we were uh hanging out with because you were roommates with some hockey guys, right.

Josh Persons 1:17:10

Not at that time. Not at that time, but we were hanging out with the hockey.

Nick Lakoduk 1:17:15

You were at some point roommates but you were friendly with a lot of those athletes, some of the hockey guys. The year before I lived with some of those hockey guys, and then I was living with Ryan Paulson.

Josh Persons 1:17:22

There we go, there we go, there we go.

Nick Lakoduk 1:17:23

Okay, yeah Well anyway, uh, let's just say, I vaguely remember that, but I do, I do remember. I think um, yeah, yeah, that's good. Okay, um, um biggest regret in golf, oh.

Josh Persons 1:17:45

I. It's it's regret, but I I had. I had my chances to make it. So I can't ever say that I wasn't given the opportunity. I had a few opportunities that were bigger than others, where I needed to perform and didn't Like where DC. That was a pretty big letdown and what sucks is I was doing that. You know there's times where it's easy and there's times where it's tough and I was there at the top and it wasn't easy for me at the time and it all came crashing down like the last day.

Nick Lakoduk 1:18:30

Like it was just Tommy and I showed up. Yeah, basically. Yeah, right, when all your buddies show up. Sorry about that.

Josh Persons 1:18:35

No but it was. It was a combination of things. I, you know, I didn't think personally I was playing good. I was just managing everything good Um, everything good um, and this, like I don't want to. This is not excuses. I just wasn't playing good.

Processing Losses and Success

Josh Persons 1:18:50

Last day was rainy, wet, you just it all kind of came, came together in the wrong direction, um, but you know, you think about it like it doesn't matter, like the. If you know no matter what, like at that time, the fear of it going bad probably was worse than the situation warranted. And if you know, like at the time, you don't realize, if you just granted, you don't ever think you gave up Right, but if you just did I have any more fight, you gave up Right, but if you just did, I have any more fight. That's all I think about Interesting. Did I have more fight in there? Whether it, no matter how bad it was going, did I leave any on the table? And do you think you did? I don't think I did at the time. I mean, I go back through my memories, right. I don't think I did so I can't really regret it, but like there are some.

Nick Lakoduk 1:19:53

Well there's, there's a difference between man I wish I had that to do over again, yeah, and I didn't give it my all Right, right that, that, that that can be two completely different things. You could, you could want to do it over again because you didn't give it your all that's. I mean, I could not even list the times that I've done that Right and, and many people I would think probably have.

Josh Persons 1:20:17

So that's that's more or less I gave it, I would. That's why I say I can live with it, because I did give it my all it's. It's I want it to do over again, right the situation. But yeah, those are, those are my regrets. I have a couple of those that probably stick out. Um, I mean, what's weird is jeez, you were there for one of the biggest meltdowns I've ever had and that was just like a culmination that spiraled out of control so quick, which one was that the US Open, like that, drives me nuts.

Josh Persons 1:20:54

It's still to this day that happens so fast and yet so slow, isn't?

Nick Lakoduk 1:20:59

that what they say.

Josh Persons 1:20:59

Man, things got moving pretty fast, but it was weird because I don't think I did anything wrong and it turned out that way.

Nick Lakoduk 1:21:07

Well, I was standing right next to you.

Josh Persons 1:21:13

Those are the things that I have trouble swallowing. Why? More so than regret? Because there isn't a time that I feel like I've given up. There isn't a time that I feel like I've given up, Like I don't know if that's maybe my. My mentality on things is anger, fight.

Nick Lakoduk 1:21:33

Yeah Well, you mentioned a fight or flight, right, I mean there's not, not, and not everyone in my experience has built that way, you know, and that's, I think, where that fear of success can can, sort of, you know, begin to show itself is what happens if I fight as hard as I can and I still don't win.

Josh Persons 1:21:49

And I think, I think that's what. I think that over time is what? Where's y'all? You only got so much in the tank and you'll you'll know when to make the decision. If you're built that way, I don't know.

Nick Lakoduk 1:21:59

I can't speak for in the moment, though Right Like what up in that moment, and it might be more subconscious than conscious, but but I I know for a fact that I've been there where it's just like if I, if I do everything that I can, and if I give it my all and I still don't succeed, that would be worse in that moment. It's way worse Than if, if I just think that I'm giving it my all, right and and and still don't succeed, then I can live with myself.

Josh Persons 1:22:28

But the reality is well, you give yourself an excuse, but I can tell you right now, 20 years later, well, it's not 20, it's 10 years later, literally, literally, like 10 years to the day. Yeah, it still irks me because I can't figure out what I would have done different. Yeah, I remember the conversations, I remember, yeah, and it was gone, like gone.

Nick Lakoduk 1:22:53

Yeah, that moved quick.

Josh Persons 1:22:55

So those are the things that I would say. I regret those, like I don't regret the experience, I don't regret everything about it Other than that, like those are the frustrating things that I go back to and I don't know. I just don't know they stick out Because I don't have many where I'm like, well, I could have tried harder.

Nick Lakoduk 1:23:20

No, Well, that's what I was going to. That's kind of where I was going with that right I've made bad decisions, right?

Josh Persons 1:23:24

Well, that's part of life, right, what I was gonna that's kind of where I was going.

Nick Lakoduk 1:23:35

I've made bad decisions, right well, that's part of life, right where? But those don't. Oh, I was that's kind of like.

Josh Persons 1:23:37

No, that was stupid I get over it pretty quick and, ideally, don't make the same right decision again. Right, yeah, right. But those are the ones where I was like, listen, I did this right. Yeah, like I did that right and it didn't turn out. I don't know what to do different.

Nick Lakoduk 1:23:49

Well, yeah, not not to not to belabor this point, but I think that golf is really interesting in that regard, because you could go out and you could, you could adjust as soon.

Josh Persons 1:24:02

But I think that's we're talking golf. But I think that's life 're talking golf. But I think that's life A hundred percent. It's deflating for people. We've all had it, everybody's, some more than others. You can do everything right and you're the one that gets kicked.

Nick Lakoduk 1:24:17

Yeah, kicked or doesn't win Right, and that can precipitate, you know, sort of feelings that are similar to losing, meaning you could go out and shoot 20 under.

Josh Persons 1:24:31

And if a guy shoots 25? Under you take second place at 20,. He shoots 25.

Nick Lakoduk 1:24:34

And it's like good on you, dude Like but that's more, that's more deflating than the alternative. Well, but at least, like, at least you didn't hook one out of bounds on 17 with a one shot lead, right, like that. That's a different animal where we're literally the moment perhaps got too big for you. Instead, you just got beat, right? We see it a lot in individuals who are interviewing for jobs. Right, it's like you can control how you prepare, you can control or final situations or what have you. Right, it's literally the same thing. First dates, right, I mean you can prepare for all this stuff and sometimes you, just you just. Maybe first date's a bad example, but but finalist interviews for sure, like, we just got beat, like, like we just didn't have the solution that that group needed or we just didn't have what they were looking for, and there has to be a level of solace in there, right?

Josh Persons 1:25:24

I mean there's some choke jobs that I can think of. Right Bad decision on top of nerves.

Nick Lakoduk 1:25:33

Which typically happens Totally.

Josh Persons 1:25:36

And you give away a tournament. That was like easy win for anybody, but I don't know. I don't regret those as much as the ones that I can't figure out, because the ones I can't figure out are troubling to me.

Nick Lakoduk 1:25:53

That makes sense. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, you can't really come to peace with something if you don't, if you can't get to the bottom of it.

Josh Persons 1:26:02

Right, right, and I think that's maybe that's my, my nature. Something I can't master is what drives me nuts.

Nick Lakoduk 1:26:10

Yeah, or at least um understand what yeah, understand.

Nick Lakoduk 1:26:13

I think it's probably more fair you know, matt, master would be tough, because there's always going to be stuff you can't master, but at least understand or or or logically come to some sort of conclusion as to the, the, why. I mean, you're, you're pretty pragmatic guy, right? You like to be able to see it, smell it, taste it, feel it, and if it's and I, and I think that's great, right, I mean just being able to ask that question why I? I, I just a quick anecdote and then we'll, we'll wrap it up here, we're, um, we're quite a ways in, and again, I appreciate your time, but I spent, I spend so much time with our three-year-old William answering his question, which I get a hundred times a day, which is why, and that's from 5.30 pm to 8.30 pm every night, and I spend my 8 am to 5 pm every day trying to get 30 sellers and sales leaders asking why more often.

Josh Persons 1:27:11

So what do you tell your son? You can't tell him to quit asking why.

Nick Lakoduk 1:27:15

I love it. And without that perspective of like, we literally pay money and give an abundance of time and energy to run programs, to do trainings, to do workshops. Um, that will create to get our people that were paying good money to ask better questions. And here you got a three-year-old kid.

Josh Persons 1:27:39

That's just, it's all he does is ask questions.

Nick Lakoduk 1:27:44

What happens between three and a half and you know 40 learned behavior, yeah, man. And so I mean gosh, we could spend another hour and a half on that, but I think the you, you repercussions, yeah, you start asking why and you start getting answers that you either don't like, or you start getting answers that don't make sense. Or you start getting somebody that says quit asking why, because that individual might not have the self-esteem or the courage or the ability to internalize and process that. This is just a person trying to learn. And you see it from parents, you see it from sales leaders, you see it from coaches, like don't ask why, just do as I say. Well, that'll get you maybe a little bit of returns, yeah, but long-term it's just not a solution Correct. And if a person continues to ask why, I think that's a really good quality. It is, I think that's a really good quality. So is I think that's a really good?

Josh Persons 1:28:48

quality. So keep encouraging that. Good luck with all those questions.

Nick Lakoduk 1:28:54

Yeah, man, it's a blast. But you talk about emotional intelligence and trying to manage the stimuli that you're receiving right.

Nick Lakoduk 1:29:02

And respond in a way that is appropriate in the time. That's an exercise in making sure that you're trying to do it right because you don't want to kill that desire or just genuine curiosity I mean that's the other thing too that I think is extremely important, just in life in general is a genuine curiosity for things Bob Proctor would say. I mean, the learned will inherit the earth, right? So if anyone thinks that they know everything about something or that they stop learning, stop reading, stop growing, stop thinking they're going to get lapped because everything is changing. And if you stop learning, reading, growing, you're just, you're just done, right. So you show me somebody that knows everything about something. I show you somebody that's bound to fail eventually, right? Well, josh, thank you for your time.

Josh Persons 1:30:04

No, thank you, this is fun.

Nick Lakoduk 1:30:06

I appreciate it. Hopefully we can do it again sometime soon. And, yeah, really appreciate your friendship and really appreciate you taking the time to extol some of your wisdom on us. Yeah, thanks, buddy.

Josh Persons 1:30:17

Thanks. Now all the public gets to hear our wisdom. You got it, man. Thank you, appreciate you. Bye-bye.