Time & Energy
Driven by a deep fascination with how top performers prioritize their time and manage their Emotional Energy, Time & Energy is my endeavor to learn, grow, and share ways in which we all can be at our best when our best is required.
Time & Energy
Ep. 5: Vulnerability as a Strategy - w/ Samantha Brown
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The magic of Sammy's approach lies in her ability to blur the lines between professional and personal relationships. As she puts it, "There's just so much time that happened, a lot of change that happened throughout the years, and we all were in it together." This philosophy has created teams where people work hard not just for themselves but "for the person sitting next to you too"—a rare quality in today's often transactional workplace environments.
At the heart of Samantha's leadership toolkit is the Enneagram, a personality typing system she uses to promote self-awareness and better communication within her team. Unlike other personality assessments that can feel limiting, the Enneagram encourages growth and adaptability. "The goal is not to be your number," she explains, "but to understand different numbers and pivot based on who you're talking to." This framework has transformed how her team members relate to each other, creating deeper understanding and more effective collaboration.
When it comes to hiring, Samantha looks beyond technical acumen to behaviors. She seeks people who are "humble, hungry, smart" with emotional intelligence and a competitive spirit. This approach has led to an impressive track record of successful hires who've grown within the organization. The few "misses" typically involved candidates showing an "unwillingness" or "huge uncomfortableness of being uncomfortable"—a critical red flag in environments requiring adaptation.
As a mother of two balancing family and career, Samantha shares practical wisdom for prioritization: identify your "three big rocks" each day and recognize that sometimes one might be "my son's doctor appointment." Her journey reminds us that extraordinary leadership isn't about complex systems or rigid hierarchies, but about creating environments where people can thrive by being their authentic selves. When asked about her favorite part of leadership, her answer is immediate: "Working with people and helping them realize their potential."
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Introduction to Samantha Brown
Speaker 1Hey, what's up everybody? Nick here, Thank you and welcome back to the Time and Energy Podcast. I could not be more excited to welcome our next guest on the pod. What has started as a professional relationship about 13 years ago has molded and morphed into one of the most wonderful and caring and loving relationships and partnerships that I've had the opportunity to be involved in in my professional career, my personal career. We'll get together with our families from time to time, our spouses and us.
Speaker 1We'll get together, go to a concert and really, again, it's just an honor to have her here and I'm excited for you all to learn what I already know, which is she's one of the best leaders that I've ever been around. Her quality when it comes to talent she has an eye for talent that is unmatched, and we'll talk a little bit about that. And she juggles a lot as a mom of two, a wonderful mom and wife and leader. That's a lot, and so we talked a little bit about her successes and the way she prioritizes her time from an essentialism perspective and a prioritization perspective. I could not be more excited to welcome Ms Samantha Brown to the Time and Energy podcast of Will.
Speaker 2Yeah, sitting there. What does he talk about?
Speaker 1Everything it's pretty cute, cute.
Speaker 2You can play that for him when he's older, at his graduation and stuff welcome samantha brown thank you. Thanks for having time and energy podcast.
Speaker 1of course, of course I, I it wouldn't be complete without you and it's been a couple months.
Speaker 2I know that the virtual world for a lot of people, that are work from home, or maybe they don't have a family yet, or maybe close friends, maybe they move somewhere for a job and they need they need to pick me up, and so I thought this was a cool idea to be able to share that versus just us hanging out with our crew all day which is what we continue to do and continues to be a bucket filler in our families. Yeah, but not everybody is so fortunate.
Speaker 1So I know, I know, I mean, it's really changed how we've worked together for now over what 12 years? In some way shape or form. As I was doing a little bit of research on you last night, which is to say I looked at your LinkedIn profile, I was going to say what did you Google? But I think, and I don't even know if I knew this, but it was a January 2013 that you started. So, I started in 2011, 2011. Okay.
Speaker 2Yes, on a different team. There we go, and then I started on our sales team in 2013,. The fall of 2013, fall of 2013.
Speaker 1Got it, and then? What team did you start with originally?
Speaker 2Participant services, so the call center Yep.
Speaker 1So answering participant phone calls.
Speaker 2Yep, Quickest way to learn. Still still think that's true to this day.
Speaker 1No question.
Speaker 2There was an opportunity on the sales team with the like proposal team and I couldn't pass it up because little did I know that I'd be meeting like my best friends for life on that team and so really happy that I made that move. And I remember even thinking about it like I don't know. I haven't been on this team that long, like I could try again in a year or two, but I'm so glad that I did.
Speaker 1Was it? Was it, JC? Yes that that sort of courted you, as it were.
Speaker 2Yes, and I think he might've gotten in trouble for that.
Speaker 1Our friend Jason Christensen, who was a long time colleague and still friend, who was on the sales team for a long time, and what he just kind of approached you at some point back when we were in the strip mall.
Speaker 2I specifically remember. No, we were in the new building.
Speaker 1Oh, okay, yeah, so we had just moved, just brand new moved.
Speaker 2So we were I was in account management in the old strip mall building for just a few months, jason.
Speaker 2I don't even know how we knew each other. Like he just liked to walk around and talk to people and you know me, like of course, I'm going to like try and talk to people too. So I think that's how we had met, cause I think I had only met Mike Hagan and Andy based off of current clients that I had now like as an account manager but otherwise hadn't worked with any of the other sales people yet. And he's like I think you should apply for that job opening, you'd get along with the people on our team. And I was like I remember him standing there with his mug.
Speaker 1That's JC for you.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And the rest of this is history.
Speaker 2I guess. So I remember meeting with Sarah Flowers was my um, who is now one of my very good friends. She's like three things. I remember she said three things and she like wrote them down for me and I was like, oh my gosh, she's like RFPs right hand to the sales director and I cannot remember what.
Speaker 1The third one was for the life of me.
Speaker 2but I remember saying like what's an RFP? And she's like request for proposal and I'm like man, like talk about, like breaking it down to like basic level. So walking into the interview it seemed to come together, probably better than it would have otherwise, because I was throwing around like abbreviations that I had just learned like. Rfp. And now that I think about it, I wonder if the third thing was like the broker consultant channel, something like that.
Speaker 1That would make sense.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Because Sarah was on the team. Yes, going backwards a little bit. How'd you end up at Discovery Benefits at DBI?
Speaker 2That's a great story. So I was at North Dakota State University majoring in psychology. I loved and love psychology, Like anything about people. I love anything like what, what makes them tick, like what they like, why people might act a certain way. Um, but I did not want to keep going to school. Like everything from a psychologist standpoint told me that I needed some more years of school if I wanted to do anything with that.
Speaker 1That is true, and I was so done with it.
Speaker 2I loved my psychology classes, but I was over everything else that you needed to do to continue that on, which was research methods, statistics. Nope, I couldn't. I was done, Burnt out, and so I started to panic because I was supposed to graduate and I'm like what am I going to do? Like I want to. I want a job like eight to five, Like that was a dream for me. My mom worked 12 hour shifts as a nurse, growing up in nights, and so I was like I want something that I where I don't have to do that. And so I like I just want an eight to five, whatever that is. So I went on the career center at NDSU and I saw discovery benefits. I have zero clue what that is, but I'm applying for it. That's how I found it. I actually applied for a role that actually got bought out by evolution, one at the time.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2It was the BPO services part of discovery benefits, but they had actually placed me in PS. Which, thinking back to what if I would have actually gotten that one role and ended up at EV one? Yeah, funny to think back of all of the different paths that you could have taken.
Speaker 1Why do you think that is? Why do you think people have either stuck around or and some I haven't seen since before COVID it feels different than any other people I've ever worked with anywhere else. Why is that?
Speaker 2There's just so much time that happened, a lot of change that happened throughout the years, and we all were in it together. I do think there is something to be said about working with people. Um, I think there is an opportunity to get to that level if you are virtual and remote, but I think it takes longer. And so I think we had a unique like Petri dish, like looking back on, like just all being in these walls together all the time, and there are so many of us in this community. A lot of people knew each other from college or just other areas of, and I think that also created connections too. And then there was a sense, too, of not just doing work to get it done, but to do it for the person sitting next to you too. And I'm sure that started, like with leadership, obviously at the time, you know, with 360 degree leadership and things like that, in service of one another.
Speaker 2And it's so fun to bring on new team members too, because they even feel it in a virtual world. There's a new person. Well, this person has been on the team for a long time, but is new to my team as of last year, and he always says like wow, like you can just tell that your guys' culture is so good. It's like, well, we get to hang out with our kids and our families at night and on the weekends and on PTO, and we have the best time for the most part. Sometimes kids are crazy, but we do that and we have fun. We try to give them what we can.
Building Connections in a Virtual World
Speaker 2In that moment it seems a little bit like whiplash if you were just to go to work and just do the tasks, not try to connect, not try to like find out more about the people that you're working with. It seems a little lonely, and some people can do it, and that's great. Everyone's different, but what I've loved about our team over the years is that people crave that connection and then you can continue to impact people. I think sometimes it's just hard, though. You have people that join certain teams and they just want to do the work, and that's fine. But it's really cool when you can see that light bulb turn on and be like wait a sec.
Speaker 1I can get my bucket filled here too and have a really cool relationship with my coworker, and it's not negative, it's not toxic, it's not too much so well, first of all, I could not agree with you more and I'd love to hear you explain it from your perspective, because you are one of the original individuals, when I think of our team collectively, that has championed, really unlike anybody else, the ability for people to engage in that type of, you know, friendship within the work circle environment and like have a level of comfort with that Cause. To your point, many people and I'll go back to you know the Venn diagram. I talk about a lot, which is, you know, the overlap of personal and professional. You know I I prefer that those two circles overlap. I know you're, you're similar in that regard and some prefer to have those two circles not overlap at all and there's nothing wrong with that. But the environment that you've created and the environment that we've talked about for many years is, if you want that, it's available for you.
Speaker 1It's really interesting when you go back and you look at some of the individuals that we've brought onto the team over the years, some folks who may have at the beginning been a little bit kind of I don't want to say, put off, but you know what I mean. Just maybe wasn't, you know, all in right away from a I'm going to just give this my all and I want to take as much as I can from it, just kind of test in the waters a little bit. Some of those folks now becoming the also champions of that type of environment and and trying to facilitate that for others. To me I think that's, that's the coolest thing. I'd love to hear that from your perspective too.
Speaker 2Absolutely, and I sometimes I have my blinders on cause. I'm so into that that I need to take a step back and look at people that have voiced I don't know about like the vulnerability. That's okay. Like we, we will go at whatever pace people want to go at. They can share whatever they want to share, if anything at all. But I hope that they know and I do tell them that we care a lot about you and we're always here. If you wanted to like kind of jump on that bandwagon. I think of Jocelyn Johnson.
Speaker 2That's what I was thinking about, too, when I brought that up, when she said, like we first had her on the team and I remember we were at a happy hour I think, or we were in like the cafeteria at work just having a meeting, and she said, yeah, I don't do the after work thing, and I think you and I made eye contact like oh, we'll see.
Speaker 2What do you mean? Like okay, this is going to be a little bit of a challenge, but I'm ready for it. We were at this unique time in our lives with a unique set of people, with a unique opportunity with and like amplify it, where now we continue it, but I'm not always there. Like I have my little ones, I have to go home, but I count on others, if they want to continue that, to be able to do that. And so it's cool to look back, because if we were to try and start that now organically, like it was, it'd be a lot harder, I think, with where we're at in our lives.
Speaker 1I think we're right with our lives, the professional environment that exists today, post pandemic, right With with a majority of a lot of our, a lot of our teammates now working remotely, either outside of the area or working from their home office, which and I don I don't begrudge those people. I mean they have to do what's best for them.
Speaker 2And.
Speaker 1I fully support it. I do also, though, believe to be true, at the same time, that there is an abundance of loneliness that exists in the world today, and I think a lot of it has to do with with what had happened. You know, when people are going home and I don't love it, but I got to get used to it when life circumstances present themselves outside of work, right, that that obviously is going to impact what you are willing and able to take from work and what you are willing and able to put into it. I'm glad that we don't have to think too deeply about that. Like what, what it would have been like if, if we would have started that now, because I I do think a lot of that would have still, would have still shined through. So you grew up in Bismarck, north Dakota.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1So your mom was a nurse. Remind me, what did your dad do?
Speaker 2For most of my time growing up, he had his own painting business. Yeah, that's right, okay, and then he also was a painter at the capital, at the state capital.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's so cool. Okay, I remember that. I remember that. I remember that and I've been fortunate to meet your parents over the years and just awesome awesome people. And speaking of growing grass, your dad was the one that kind of supervised that endeavor, right.
Speaker 2Came from, but it was something about earning an allowance and I was like I don't even recall that even being a thing when I was young. Um, I earned it but I didn't get it. I was joking.
Speaker 1You need some back pay.
Speaker 2I'm sure that the uh yeah, the interest has been running, so yeah, of course my dad was smart and witty in the moment and had made a comment of like and you didn't go without. And I was like you're exactly right. And you didn't go without. And I was like you're exactly right, I definitely didn't. So I was thankful for that humble plug right there. But we were joking about it because I remember we had a big cottonwood tree in our backyard and that thing rained sticks, even if it was breezy, because of how the tree was. It was massive, it was like a big climbing tree. First we had to pick up. I would have to start over. So I don't know if that's where my obsession comes from. A little bit, I was always outside doing chores, like it was.
Speaker 1I never like learned how to cook, and so it's funny that now Maybe you should have Wes on and talk about that. Yeah, For real.
Speaker 2Now like with where I'm at with in my life with my husband and kids. It's just funny how our roles kind of are in the house. We definitely partner up on a lot of stuff, but I am not the cook and actually my little boy started baseball and my husband's the coach and that's three nights out of the week where I'm like, Ooh, like you cook up for us all the time, Like that's a lot, Can I take on Thursdays? He's like, okay, Well then the last two weeks I've completely dropped the ball. Like I tried to make tater tot hot dish.
Speaker 2He came home, it wasn't quite done, so he had to finish it before I had to run out and get Rowan and then I can't remember what happened, but I think it was like a chicken nugget night from McDonald's. But it works, you know. But it's just funny looking back at how you kind of grow up and see how some of that translates to what you're spending your time on now at home, things like that. But I'm always in the yard like looking at my grass. I'm that person that is rubbing my foot over the grass and just staring at it for minutes on end. It's a little psychotic, I don't know about psychotic.
Speaker 1I mean it might be some OCD tendencies showing some colors there, but that's okay. I, I think, growing up up here in North Dakota you know upper Midwest area, I do understand it, because so much of the year is covered in snow, right, I mean you don't really have grass to speak of that, comparative to comparative to the parts of the country where you know there really aren't maybe seasons we experience and I mean I think we get every season, like all of it.
Speaker 1We get like a hundred percent of every, every season, and there's something to that, you know, just getting to see things grow again. Right, I've always loved spring, even though it's kind of wet and icky and you know the weather could be better. But just the concept of you know, the grass coming back to life, the trees budding right, you're hearing the birds again. It's just like another, you know, awakening of of life and just kind of a way to reset. So running was a big passion of yours and is it still something you? You try to do? I know time is, I don't.
Speaker 2it's been a while I think probably two years since I've regularly had like a running cadence, and this is something that has been weighing on my mind, because it's like the closer I get to 40, the more I need to have like some sort of physical exercise routine, a little bit better than what I do, and so I love running. I want to make sure that I'm filling my bucket still, which running did, so that gave me energy to take care of my kids.
Speaker 2But there are other things that I do now that can fulfill that. I go for walks every night after the kids are asleep.
Speaker 1Oh nice.
Growing Up in Bismarck and Colorado
Speaker 2Running seems like a little bit of an exerted effort in my head at the moment, which I've always been one to say like if you're not all in, like don't do it, like don't. There's different things that I think you can apply. Like I think it's, is it Brené Brown? That was like the five second rule five, four, three, two, one go.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, yep, yep, we've talked about that, but it's like yeah, but it's like I need to be at like 70% in order to do that, versus like the 40% I'm at, you know, so it's like maybe someday.
Speaker 1Yeah, maybe someday we'll get back to it yeah, one day, but I do enjoy it. It's just a lot. Let me know if I can help you hold you accountable to that.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think what it is is like I remember where I needed to be time wise, and like it's easy for me to start and like go, go, go. I have this great pace and then all of a sudden, I get a half mile under my my belt and I'm like Whoa, why are my legs going to fall off? And that's, I think, the hardest part is your brain remembers like where you were at, what your pace was, what you need to do, but your body has like no idea what you're doing, nor can recall from two years ago, like what this feat is that we're working on right now.
Speaker 1Our brains are kind of jerks because they remind us of what we were capable of at younger ages, Right, but it also tries to get us to not do stuff Like I think our brains are wired In fact I know they are to to take the easiest path towards everything in general.
Speaker 1Yeah, We've got the benefit of hindsight and the benefit of of being able to look back and say, man, this was a great feeling when I went for a run or whatever it is, but also like I'd really rather prefer to just not do that because it's just easier to be here right now and then, of course, he had in the kids.
Speaker 1I used to love running and since I had my back surgery in 2021, I really haven't. I love. I love to walk also, and just being outside is is awesome, but I loved the idea of running, of just not having a time to worry about. I don't know if this is going to take me 20 minutes or 60 minutes, and it doesn't matter, because I really don't have anything else to do or to worry about. Really, I'm not accountable to anyone else. I loved, I loved that aspect of it Just kind of just go like almost the Forrest Gump type.
Speaker 2Yes, the runner's high is real, and once you like get it, you're golden.
Speaker 1What was it about your upbringing that you think supported your extreme interest in like people and how they tick and what they do and how they operate and what they do and how they operate.
Speaker 2Growing up I was always kind of the quiet kid Like I definitely was like. So for anybody that's aware of the Enneagram, my top three numbers are eight challenger, nine peacemaker, three achiever. And I think a lot of times my personal life and even growing up, when I think back of high school or elementary school or middle school, I think I definitely took on a lot more of those peacemaker qualities in kids.
Speaker 1Oh sure.
Speaker 2Which I've read a little bit more about, which is like doesn't necessarily want to upset the apple cart, likes to watch and observe people and like be around fun and happy things. So they want to do those things that they see that people are doing. They're more quiet. They want to do what their friends want to do. They don't maybe want to make decisions, because they just want everyone to be happy. So it's like yeah, like where do you want to go eat? I don't know. Where do you want to go eat. Like do you want to drive or do you want to go eat? I don't know. Where do you want to go eat. Like do you want to drive or do you want me to drive?
Speaker 2That's like what I remember growing up was a lot of that kind of stuff, and my parents were well. My mom worked a lot. My dad did too, but he was more like regular schedule and he just had a plan and that was what we were doing and I just remember just being like okay, well, I'm just going to do that so I can go with my friends later, cause if I put up a fight like I won't, definitely won't be able to go with my friends later, and so I don't know if that's like where that kind of stems from, but and so maybe I just had more time to like watch people and see how different people were, because being in different sports and like having different types of friends, everyone's so different and I think that is really cool.
Speaker 1People are the same in a lot of ways too, so yeah, but you, even even back then, you prioritized and valued time with your friends. Yes, and I think most of us did right when we're growing up, whether it's, you know, grade school, middle school, high school. But I would say in what you just described, right, sometimes like you made a very conscious effort to get done what needed to be done, based on what your dad sounds like had set for you as a way to help arrive at priorities. So it's like all right, do the work and then you get to go have fun. Is that pretty close? Yep, yeah, yeah, yep.
Speaker 2Exactly, and we I had a little bit of a stricter household definitely had to be home by curfew. I had those friends that are like, well, yeah, it's curfew, like we can be a little late. I'm like we definitely cannot be a little late, like I think that is a very bad idea if you want to see me again in the next like week or two. And so there was that level of it which I think back and I look at my daughter. I'm like man if I parented the exact same way she would rebel.
Speaker 2I can just see it, if, if she's somewhat similar to how she is now, yeah, and I look back to me like, from what I can remember, at that I have this vision in my mind of what I want to do and in order to get that done, I know it'll get done quicker if I can just listen and like, do this stuff quickly yeah, yeah. And people, please a little bit, you know.
Speaker 1I think in any walk of life, profession, what have you? You just have to communicate with people, right, and understanding the needs and wants and desires, or you know buying criteria, as it were, when I think about from a sales perspective. But that's really difficult for some people when they get into a professional environment and you know my experience and my exposure to you as much as we've worked with over the, over the, over the many years, like that is not that difficult for you right To, to try to understand what other people's motivations are, not in a self-serving way but like in a genuine interest way. What are some ways in which that served you well, kind of that innate ability to be able to understand, kind of the environment you're in. I think of like a situational awareness, I think social awareness. You know self-awareness, right, I mean these types of things we talk a lot about from an emotional intelligence perspective.
Speaker 2Cause we're actually doing the emotional intelligence 2.0 right now again.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And I think, throughout different life experiences you improve on that if you're intentional with it. You know, obviously you want to have your stimulus gap response when something is, when you're receiving something it's really important that you pause, gather all the information.
Speaker 2Who are you talking to? What situation are you in right now? What is this information? How am I feeling receiving this information and then, if needed, delivering a response or not, and why aren't you type of thing. I think that I've learned the hard way over the years being a people leader, but I'm very fortunate to have those experiences too, because I think if everybody took the maybe easy path, what's the easy path?
Speaker 2back to like that people pleasing thing, just saying yes to everything, when in reality you know, if you were to kind of zoom out a little bit, you're maybe just being a little bit fake, because what action are you going to take, and is that self-serving to you yourself? Then yes Versus the actual person that maybe needs something from you, has a question for you or is delivering something to you, and even if it needs to be a crucial conversation, the outcome is to benefit, ideally, both of you and the team moving forward and not just one or the other, and so that's kind of a vague answer to your question.
Speaker 1But no, not at all.
Speaker 2Learned it the hard way, I think, just with different experiences. Good feedback from my leaders yeah, I think I remember you a lot over the years would say like hey, like I have some feedback for you after this meeting. Perfect, like, give it. Like anywhere I can get better in zoom out and see someone else's lens or perspective. That helps me for the next time.
Speaker 1Well, and that's the perfect mindset for it. Number one being open to feedback is is massive, right, I mean I, I would. I would venture to say that as one of the one of the most important aspects of individuals that are top performers. Right, one of the tenants that they have is the willingness to receive all types of feedback right, good, positive or, excuse me, positive, negative, constructive, whatever you want to call it right, because feedback doesn't just need to be constructive or negative, which I think is a horrible misnomer for just the concept of feedback in general in the work environment, because that positive feedback is extremely important. As you know, I don't believe to be true that the masses are comfortable providing constructive feedback as often as it could be, and I even see it in myself as often as it could be, and I even see it in myself with.
Speaker 2so back to the EI 2.0 stuff. What I'm working on is self-awareness, which at the time I was like that's going to be my strongest. So it's funny when you take that again, it's like oh, oh, oh, wow, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1So you wait, hold on a sec. So you thought self-awareness was going to be your, your highest right and in fact it was your lowest, proving that self-awareness. Actually, it's actually really funny.
Psychology and People-Reading Skills
Speaker 2It actually is hilarious because, um, I'll get back to your question. But it was funny because I realized that there are areas of self-awareness that I can be strong in, but there are times where that stimulus gap response maybe isn't there. I'm deep into something and, depending on the person I'm talking to, I don't take myself out of it Right. And so if there's somebody I know very well, I have a tendency to not always be self-aware because subconsciously I'm in a safe place with whoever that person is and I can react how I want to act. And that's not always the best thing, depending on the situation, and I can just provide more example there too. I can just provide more example there too.
Speaker 2We had a situation that was stressful at work a few years ago, probably one or two years ago here, and I work with a really close friend that is also a people leader and because of that personal relationship I have a tendency to not always have like a filter.
Speaker 2She's a safe place for me. She always brings me back above the line. I always bring her back above the line. But what I've found, especially as I practice and work on my self-awareness, is, depending on the situation, that's not healthy for me to like always utilize her as a safe place because it causes stress for her as well, then, and so it's hard sometimes to zoom out and take a look at the situation, the scenario, and assess can I use this person as my safe place right now and can we get back above the line, or do I need to go seek out as you get older and more advanced in your career, to that number is limited for people that are there. Do I actually need is? Is this important enough for me to actually seek out somebody else and share this information so I can continue to move forward, chase the vision and get back like on the mission bandwagon?
Speaker 1So well, and and setting the vision now right In the position that you're in, right, and I think that's what's so unique about your journey that we'll, you know, we'll talk about uh, in in pieces as we continue to move forward here today. But, um, you know, there there comes a point in a career as, as you advance, like you have, where you start by following the vision right and then you sort of align with that vision and then it becomes incumbent on you to create the vision right and support the vision. How do you process that?
Speaker 2It's a lot of responsibility, but I'm honored to be able to do that. Like I think back to when I started on the team, I remember telling my mom I get to hang out with these people every day. Like they are so awesome, they're so smart, they want to win, which is really cool. I didn't hadn't experienced yet competitive spirit in the workplace until I joined the team and I was like, oh, that doesn't have to just end with school or like a professional sport team that you like. You know I'm like, okay, I like this feeling. And I remember telling her I am so happy that I'm part of this, Like I am surrounded by positive people, people that want to win. They have hard conversations, but it's for the betterment of the team and for what we're doing here, and everybody wants to see me succeed too. And that was like whoa, this is so cool.
Speaker 2And I remember just being such a fan girl like for everybody on the team that and it was like 360 degree leadership. It wasn't just the leaders that I was like fan, fan girl, you know, it was everyone. It's like, oh man. I remember telling my mom too, like there's these other team members that are doing the same job as me and they're so nice, Like I really like them, and they're so smart, and so I just remember feeling like that, Okay, I found my place and I think back to that now as a people leader. Like there are people on the team that not everybody's going to get to that level of that. Sometimes this is a ride, like for people, and this is part of the journey and we're thankful for them and the contributions they've had, but maybe long term it's not a good fit.
Speaker 1Yeah, it happens.
Speaker 2But I'm so excited to be able to hopefully, at some level, instill that same excitement and drive for them. Drive for them because it's eight hours a day at least, sometimes that you're working away from maybe some of your hobbies, friends, family and why not make it fun and exciting and, like, make it really cool to be a part of something like that?
Speaker 1Well, as we've talked about for many years and you've been known to say a lot, right, I mean, people want to be part of something bigger than themselves, and you mentioned it earlier, the idea of playing for the person next to you, and that is so valuable when you think about a vision and you think about that, one plus one equals three type environment that you've been able to facilitate for all the individuals you've worked with, either from just a simple colleague perspective, a people leader perspective, now leading leaders, right. I mean, that is truly a journey that involves a lot of self-reflection, right, and a feedback loop that also requires grace, I believe to be true, because the mistakes become elevated and escalated, because they are impacting more than just ourselves, right, but the victories, man, they're so much better.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's emotional being a leader, whether you are actually having people report up to you or through you. But even an individual contributor leader, it's a lot. There's people watching you, whether you are a people leader or not, but it's so worth it. There's an opportunity to make sure everybody is aware that you're also human. Mistakes happen. Sometimes.
Speaker 2I need to apologize to my team for something. Maybe I haven't been as present as I've committed to them, and that happens sometimes, especially with a quick, moving, fast paced type of role. Different changes, there's a lot going on, but we need to make sure that we're holding ourselves accountable to the team. That's what my role is, that's my job and that's why I love my job. And if we stray away from that, that's where you got to make sure that you hold yourself accountable. You voice that accountability and maybe it's a lower, lower part able to support you in that way is going to make the highs like 10,000 times higher.
Speaker 2Or even if it's not something a leader you know maybe messes up or makes a mistake on, maybe it's just really busy. The team is not zooming out, they're not seeing the big picture like the mission's there. But man, sometimes it's hard when it's so busy. There's nothing better, I think, than a people leader literally putting everything else aside and getting in the mud with them, and I think that's what keeps leaders young. I think it's what keeps leaders fresh and up to speed on what we're doing here. If you can get back into the mix, your team sees the effort that you're putting in. They also see that you can do it too, like they're not. They're not doing something that you wouldn't ask of yourself or another people leader right and that's the best part, I think.
Speaker 2Sometimes it gets obviously in the way of bigger initiatives, projects, whatever, but it's like if we lose sight of what our mission is, which part of our mission is driving revenue, real revenue at our fingertips in this moment. Other initiatives and projects are maybe ways out. It technically impacts revenue at some point.
Speaker 2At some point, right, yeah, but it's like, if we're taking away from that right now because of that, then we've got a problem, and so being able to share that with the team and where my priorities are helps bring that vision to life and helps us all move forward, like in that direction, which is really, really, really fun, makes the highs 10,000 times better, even if you have to hit a few lows along the way.
Enneagram and Team Leadership
Speaker 1Well, and just expecting that they're going to happen, I think, is the first part right. And you know, I believe to be true that when a person gets into a leadership position, um, because they've been a top performer in the position, that they've been right, isn't always the reason that that person is going to succeed or or should receive that opportunity to lead people. Because, for sure, in sales and I would say even in many parts of our organization or any organization right that your top individual contributors are generally not actually your best leaders, for sure, in sales. I want to dive into that a little bit deeper. I also want to talk a little bit more about how you prioritize your time and your energy, both personally and professionally, and what some of the points of consideration are that you take into place. To do that, I need a sip of a story, because I had forgotten that you were actually born in Colorado.
Speaker 2Yes, nick presented me with an option to have a Phoenix or a Denver mug, and I picked Denver because of my roots. So, born in Colorado Springs, my parents had lived out there for a short while. We literally lived in a suburb outside of Colorado Springs called divide oh yeah. And we literally lived on a mountain.
Speaker 1That's so cool.
Speaker 2Yeah, and so I. My mom still likes to talk about this, and I do too, cause it's just funny coming from like humble beginnings, right? Um, I was born like a month early and she hadn't had a crib set up or anything yet. So she's like, well, we just went back up the mountain after you were born and you slept in a drawer, and so no crib. But you know, you see the stories of like little babies, like they don't need a crib, or like a pack and play, yet like clothes hamper when they're brand new a crib. Or like a pack and play, yet Like clothes hamper when they're brand new.
Speaker 1I got to be honest, sam I have never heard those stories.
Speaker 2Well, you know Bismarck West River. No, I'm just kidding, I, I am just kidding, Um, but yeah, so drawer is where I began, began, but in.
Speaker 1in divide Colorado. Yes, when did you guys move to Bismarck?
Speaker 2So we moved back when I was just about two, I believe. So my biological dad had passed away from a brain aneurysm, and so they're both from Bismarck, which is great, so that we could head back and hang out with all of the aunts and uncles, because my dad comes from a family of 12 kids six boys and six girls.
Speaker 1You know, Sam, I don't think I knew that.
Speaker 2Yeah, so big family, so still was able to grow up and spend a lot of time with his family, so I'm very fortunate.
Speaker 1What a great perspective from drawer baby to people leader. That'll probably be the high that probably the title of this episode actually started from the drawer.
Speaker 2Now we're here.
Speaker 1Now it has to be that.
Speaker 2I think so yeah.
Speaker 1That's that. Has to be that, because that is too good to pass up, God it's funny. I go back to shared experience. You know, the people that I'm closest with are those that I have very similar shared experiences with, because you can relate to those people on a different level than perhaps maybe you know now.
Speaker 1Looking back to high school, or college right, because those shared experiences either aren't shared anymore, cause you're not, um, working towards the same goals, have the same goals, um, you know, in high school, everyone, everyone sort of got the same plan right. I mean everyone's doing the same thing. Even college is really pretty much the same thing. I mean, you know, going to university right, regardless of which one, it is as diverse as or as universities want to consider themselves, and I mean above and beyond simple. Just like you know race and things like that, just you know you're still surrounding yourselves with in college. You know the top five 10% of people that exist right.
Speaker 1Cause you have the proclivity and the ability and the acumen to actually go on to secondary education. So it's really not actually that diverse at all. So there's still some shared experiences, obviously with people that you might be majoring in things with or in certain organizations with, but really, when you get into the professional environment and you start doing the same job as other people in that role and you're able to build into each other in real time, that's really impactful stuff. That's really impactful stuff. So how do you think that those relationships impacted you, have impacted you, and maybe influenced is a better word influenced you through your journey into leadership?
Speaker 2Yeah, definitely. There's something that Sarah Flowers told me once upon a time and she said we're the bouncers of this place. Nothing gets in or out without us, which a lot of times we can support the seller and help them win a deal with a winning proposal. And that's what is a key, important facet of that role and of the team that I lead today, and I still use it Every year. We support kind of a best tips and tricks kickoff meeting, and it's either in the opening or the ending, like we're the bouncers of this place.
Speaker 2That's what she said and that stuck with me, because it's true, there's a lot of parts of the sales process that you need this very specific team for and it's very important that the impression is very, very good. You've said it before, nick, that at times, during whatever time of the sales process, that the proposal is the most valuable asset that we have, and I share that with the team as well, because sometimes, like we've talked about, it's easy to get super busy and you're not zooming out. You know the mission's there but you're not looking at it.
Speaker 2And you need to go through these motions to just get it all done. And as soon as we remember that, in those moments it's almost freeing, it's like okay, nope, this is important. Most freeing, it's like okay, nope, this is important. How can I prioritize and delegate my things so I can focus on, instead of these 10 items, these three to continue to drive revenue and then, for the difference of that, these seven other things? Who can help me? Because we have an amazing team made up of wonderful resources that can support that effort.
Speaker 1For all practical purposes, once that proposal goes out, I mean, the desire for the broker, consultant or client to reach back out to the seller is diminished greatly because they have what they need, they have their pricing, they have the proposal they have in their mind. They have what they need. Perhaps, unless you know, we've got a really good relationship with that, that broker or consultant or client that you know we're chasing all day, every day. But immediately once that goes out, you know that seller finds themselves in a very reactive position. And so, as you translate that into the team that you have because the team that you have is unique in our space, and I would say in any space really, for that matter is a subset of individuals primarily tasked with a pre-sales motion to put our sellers and our organization in the best position to earn business. Talk just a little bit about the team in general from your perspective.
Speaker 2Privileged to be able to lead a team across our organization, and so it's very unique and complicated in a really awesome way. It's so funny when, when, when we hire someone new, we kind of do a one-on-one run through, yeah, and I always look at my other leaders. I'm like man, we have to know a lot, but I'm so thankful for it, because we wouldn't be as great of an organization as we are today if we weren't as complex as we are, and I think the complexity also makes us very flexible in certain areas. And so and by that I mean we have a team made up of all of these different individual specialties, a team made up of all of these different individual specialties we have people that have experience and deep knowledge in our products. They have very realizing that what we put in our proposals to your point is very valuable and it has to be top tier.
Speaker 2And so being able to lead a team that specializes in things like that is really amazing when, historically, thinking back three or four years, we were responding to volume. This is what we needed to do, this was the process we needed to do. We had a ton of efficiencies which we still have today, which are a differentiator efficiencies, which we still have today, which are a differentiator, but now that we have people that specialize in different areas of making our proposals even better is second to none. We have people on the team that are actual proposal writers, so they are amazing with putting words together. So it's amazing to be able to see the talent and strength on my team in all different areas, because you have people like me that are very passionate about the sales process can put on a sales hat.
Speaker 1And so you have how many leaders that you lead.
Speaker 2I have three leaders on my team. One of them, making up four, actually reports to Michelle.
Speaker 1And so how many individuals in your org?
Speaker 2There are 23 of us 10 years ago.
Speaker 1You're sitting as an individual contributor on the team you're leading today. What do you wish? You knew then that you know now.
Speaker 2I remember when we were talking a little bit ago just around the positives of joining the team which was mom. I'm surrounding myself by such great people. They're so smart, I have so much to learn. I'm learning so much. If you lean too much, that way too, you get caught in the comparison trap and then there's imposter syndrome. You can say all this stuff to somebody. I can go to my team today and tell them all this stuff to somebody Like I can go to my team today and tell them all this, and I've said it before. But sometimes they do have to kind of go through it at some level, I think in a healthy way, hopefully, hopefully not where they kind of have to figure it out sometimes, and hopefully it's not as big of a jump when you have people voicing this type of stuff, but sometimes it's hard to really understand it until you go through it.
Speaker 1Well, there's no question about it, and I think that's what's been so cool. One of the many things that's been really cool about our team in general and just the environment that you've facilitated for your specific team and I believe that we've facilitated for the greater team is, and many of the things that we champion whether it's emotional intelligence, mindset, ideal team player, enneagram they're all tools that transcend both personal and professional walks of life, right and so, while we train to those types of things more in a professional setting, they're 100% tangential to the things that we're experiencing outside of the office hours. I couldn't agree more with you that one of the things that fills my bucket the most is, of course, when somebody succeeds professionally by championing some of the tools that perhaps we expose them to, championing some of the tools that perhaps we expose them to. But where it's really fun is when you see that happen on a personal level, and they've championed some of those tenants on a personal level and seen positive reactions to their responses to those stimuli, because that's what matters most.
Speaker 1Right Is? I mean you know your family, your friends, your kids, your parents, your. You know, whatever circle that you're Is I mean you know your family, your friends, your kids, your parents, your, you know, whatever circle that you're in. I mean that is literally the most important thing. So I think talking through that as a leadership team, like we have over the years, right, I mean, that's the stuff that matters most. That, to me, is just so fascinating in the way in which people are able to utilize professionally based concepts for personal gain.
Speaker 2Absolutely, and I love that you brought this part up, because you're exactly right. Like for a lot of us, it's our families and our friends are that glass ball that we talk about, but there are a lot of people that don't have that yet.
Speaker 1Correct.
Speaker 2And can we be that for them until that happens, and that's where I feel really good about being able to say yes to that.
Hiring for Behaviors, Not Just Skills
Speaker 2It would be so lonely if you joined a job and it was fine, you went through the motions and you're a part of a team, basically, but you didn't have anyone to go home to, you didn't have maybe a roommate, or maybe you didn't have anyone to go home to, you didn't have maybe a roommate, or maybe you don't have close friends that are healthy for you, that are positive. And to be able to provide that avenue for people, whether they have a family or not, I think is a huge win, because people will eventually start to see, maybe if they are surrounding themselves by unhealthy people, whether family related or not, outside of work, what it is like to be in a healthy relationship, even if it's coworker based, and what positivity means, even if it's not always positive circumstances, and what believing the best in others means.
Speaker 1Our longtime friend and former colleague Destiny. I had a phrase that has heretofore stuck with me, which is assume positive intent to find ourselves. At least. It is for me, right, I shouldn't speak for everybody, but for me it is.
Speaker 1It's, you know, to find yourself kind of in the doldrums of, and that can be very tough, right, as either an individual contributor or a leader, when you're having to engage in things that you believe to be true or just like oh why do I have to deal with this type stuff, right? And, of course, then you're communicating all day long, verbally, non-verbally, and if we aren't assuming positive intent by the other individual that we're working with or communicating with for the benefit of our team, at the end of the day, that is a vicious cycle. From your perspective, though, sam, you have just always been so incredibly positive. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've heard you exhibit an abundance of frustration, or what you would say you know below the line behavior. How do you maintain such a positive attitude, knowing all of the things you have going on to make your team successful, while meandering your way through sometimes tumultuous waters?
Speaker 2Well, I said this the other day. My son plays baseball and sometimes it can be harder for him. He definitely doesn't like sand in his shoes.
Speaker 1Who does?
Speaker 2Or wet macaroni and cheese, and so it's harder for him to recover from some of that stuff. And then, of course, he wants to get all the way around the bases.
Speaker 1Oh, of course.
Speaker 2But this last game he played, he was always up to bat when there was already two outs, and so he didn't quite make it around.
Speaker 1Oh sure.
Speaker 2But I told him. I said hard work is hard. You are going to see positive outcomes from this. It's harder to explain that to an eight-year-old than all of our coworkers.
Speaker 1Well, it's hard to explain it sometimes to 45-year-old men like myself.
Speaker 2Yeah, but it's like that's how I can kind of break it down best For me when I think about it what a waste of time and energy if I truly felt this was just not worth it. Not positive, this was negative, we were just doing this. I would never ask my team to spend hours on end on something that I didn't believe in no, no-transcript, and then or maybe we lost, but we are on that client's mind for next time, because there's a lot of things in the sales process or pre-sales process that we can't control or we can't control that. But that doesn't mean that all of that work was for nothing. The team is aware of how I feel about those situations. If ever there is an instance of why are we doing this Like?
Speaker 2this seems not worth it. Which situations, if ever there is an instance of, why are we doing this?
Speaker 1Like this seems not worth it, which, to your credit, also has happened before. When I, when you think about some of the processes, right, it's like, why are we doing it this way? And you've been as process driven as you are, it's like, all right, well, you know the eights and so, diving a little bit into the Enneagram now, think that, well, I don't think of you as a quote, unquote challenging person, right, and I would say that most people that know you would, would, would challenge the fact that you're a challenger, if you will. But also to me comes most to mind when I think of a challenger cause like Andy Doden, who we've talked to on the time and energy pod before, as as many of you know, and, of course, who you know really, really well from leading our team for many years. You know he's also a challenger.
Speaker 1So I think of, like, competitive spirits. I think of, just, you know what are the best things that I can be doing, constantly processing ways to just get better, right, I think it's more like challenging internally than externally. Is is how I sort of think about it. Erica Pollock, right, another extremely top performer who's been with us for well. Ever another, another eight right, you know.
Speaker 1Kelsey Burgad, who, man, did a lot of great work for us and continues to do a ton of great work, I'm certain. But, like, I think it's more internal challenging than external challenging. So how did that come to be? More internal challenging than external challenging? So how did that come to be? Because, for those of us that are at WEX and that know me and know Sammy, you know this really has been a bet that we've laid out now for many years. We have a spreadsheet I think it's 60, 70 people deep now of people that have taken the Enneagram. So we have their numbers, their preferences of people that have taken the Enneagram. So we have their numbers, their preferences. How did that come to be? Why are you so passionate about it? And for those that aren't familiar with the Enneagram, maybe just a couple comments or thoughts on the value that you've taken from it as both an individual contributor and as a leader.
Speaker 2Yeah, definitely so. The Enneagram, just to start off, basically what it is, is. It's made up of nine different personality types and the goal of the Enneagram is to understand what the types are where you might fall within those types and then understand that that's not who you are, that's not your number, but it's maybe more of your preferences. That's not your number, but it's maybe more of your preferences. It might be how you respond to certain things, what you might be blind to, and or your immediate reaction, from a preference standpoint, to certain stimuli coming at you. And I know I talked about it a little bit at the beginning, but the three top numbers I have are aenger 8, 9, Peacemaker 3, Achiever. And it is just funny looking at the weekends spent with my husband and kid, because kids I am not, I don. How can I make sure that we all are feeling good about the decisions we make here?
Speaker 2Because, we need to have a good weekend, like that's the goal of what we're going to be doing, and so it's just funny to see how you can move around the Enneagram and that's the goal of it. The goal, like I said, is not to be your number or to live in that number. It's to be able to understand the different numbers and be able to pivot and move to different numbers based on who you're talking to and who you're working with. There's so much more to the Enneagram, to when you dig a little bit deeper 200 level, there is a thing called the triad, um, and that's for another day probably, but that's helped us. We'll have another conversation to dive deeper into the En day probably, but that's helped us.
Speaker 1We will have another conversation to dive deeper into the Enneagram, but I I just I love where you're, where your head's at, on in the, in the path you're taking on this, because for those that are not familiar with it right, I mean they might be familiar with things like DISC or Myers-Briggs or some of the other personality profiles that exist, and and I and we're aware of those too this to me, as somebody that studied this for 25 years and the various types of personality profiles and the ways to, more importantly, keep it alive over time, this one is, in my humble opinion, far and away the best one that we've ever experienced, and I've ever experienced because we've done others as a team as well.
Speaker 1Um, because of the fluid nature of it, right, I feel, like others that I've been exposed to, sort of maybe not intentionally paint you with a bit of a brush. This is who I am. That's becomes like an identity I would say. You know, I'm a Enneagram seven not always Right and one of the most valuable things and I'll put the link into the show notes here as a, as a followup for the Enneagram Institute that we utilize, but one of the most valuable things that I've utilized it for is I actually have the printout from, uh, the, the booklet that you get after you take the. I promised myself when I finished college that I would never take a test again.
Speaker 2Same. That's why I ended up where I was.
Speaker 1No wonder we get along so well. But it's where are you or me in this case right On levels of health, right? So I think it's like a one to 10 scale. You know, a healthy seven exhibits these types of behaviors, um, responds to various stimuli in this fashion, predominantly, has tenants and is drawing from different parts of the Enneagram in that healthy landscape.
Balancing Work and Family Life
Speaker 1And then, conversely, you know, how do you best identify when maybe you are not at your best self, right, when you're more unhealthy? What, what numbers are you drawing from in that case? And to me it's just a. It's a wonderful self-awareness exercise, Cause I'll look at that dead serious at least once a week. Just be like, okay, what am I identifying with on this level of one to 10, healthy to unhealthy, one being the most healthy, 10 being the least healthy? Where am I? And then, and then bringing into situational leadership, which tasks am I maybe healthy and unhealthy on right when I'm, when I know I'm going to be communicating with somebody internally about something? Is that a bucket filler conversation? That's forthcoming, or is that a triggering conversation? That's forthcoming?
Speaker 1and why and why right, and trying to meet them where they are Right, and so I just want to provide a couple of examples of ways in which I've utilized it to my benefit, because it truly is a differentiator when I think of all the other personality type profile things that exist.
Speaker 2Yep, so I love it. No, it's. It's helped our team, like we've talked about a little bit before, our team came together from a pre-sale standpoint last year and it's one of the first things we did. I was definitely nervous sharing it with the team, because we have always had a culture of vulnerability on our legacy team, but now we're bringing in different people that are joining this larger team that probably already have some nerves about that. They're getting to know other people. A lot of them are remote. A lot of them are in different states, which we weren't always used to. It was very much an optional exercise and I've explained how it's helped me and then had other champions on the team provide their experiences with it too. It's helped our team prepare for conversations based on where that other person might sit on the Enneagram. It's helped me to your point. Just be more self-aware. It's funny that we're talking about self-awareness with the emotional intelligence stuff. My two strategies I'm working on right now are journaling my feelings and then watching myself like a hawk.
Speaker 1Okay, tell me more about that.
Speaker 2So back to the Enneagram.
Speaker 2For those of you that aren't very familiar with it, an unhealthy characteristic of an eight, or maybe a characteristic of a not so self-aware eight challenger, is they maybe disassociate from feelings from time to time, which may lead others to believe that there are walls up or they don't care as much about something, which definitely happens, I think, when things get really busy, I trust and believe the best in others that they know I will respond the best way I can.
Speaker 2But sometimes, if I don't have that stimulus gap response, I look a little bit like I don't care as much, or I, even though I do, I care deeply, oh for sure, but my head it maybe is over here in this one task I was working on, which is more self-awareness for me. So journaling my feelings is something I'm working on for the EI 2.0, which has helped me actually in this Identify ahead of time if there is an unhealthy eight characteristic, you know, kind of poking its head out a little bit yes or no and why or why not. So but it's, it's like just more self-awareness and things that you can utilize.
Speaker 2It's important that you hold onto that, because that's when you can really do amazing things together, and so just and and the.
Speaker 1The best stuff is hard and the best stuff, you do have to go deep on, right, and I would suggest that those that have taken that to heart, right, and, and looked at the Enneagram from that perspective and said you know, this is exactly what I want to be focusing my time and energy on, you know that's. I mean, that's exactly where we want to be. Yeah, I mean the, the Enneagram that that we've been talking about. I just I'm I'm so fascinated by the way it's been received by really pretty much everybody in the team, and I think a lot of it has to do with the way that you've served it up. When we sort of moved into our, our new roles, um, you know we'd we'd been like dotted line relationship, you know, from a working perspective, and one of the very unique things that I've learned about, you know, our team and this organization and just overall, you know, the greatest teams are built on trust and communication, period right and constantly to facilitate an environment where individuals feel like they can present themselves in the best way possible to get the most out of themselves and each other right. That is kind of the environment that we've tried to create. We are so responsible for other people in our roles. So, whether it's sales, pre-sales channel success, right, and internal account executives, you know the PS team that you talk, I mean there are so many people that are working towards the same result, that aren't necessarily led by the same people right or on the same quote unquote team, but are constantly communicating with each other and that's very hard. That's a hard environment to succeed in as an individual contributor. It's a really hard environment to succeed in as a leader.
Speaker 1What the Enneagram did really was was a was a bed that transcended all of it, meaning it was relatable to everyone in pre-sales, sales, channel success, account management, right, I mean the whole gamut could understand something that was consistent and then the end result being just the value of not necessarily, of course, understanding yourself and oneself, but being able to get a little bit closer to understanding the perspectives of somebody else and, I believe to be true, gained. Well, the immediate output of that was number one investment, that that we all felt in in each other and ourselves, um, and the organization for exposing ourselves to this level of growth. But number two, I'd say efficiency. You know I I don't love talking about efficiency all that much, but, but when you can have conversations with somebody that maybe isn't the same as you or is the same as you, and it has to be a business conversation, it has to be something that is moving the ball forward, as it were. You know, to be able to come to that common ground earlier because of the Enneagram just unbelievable advantage.
Speaker 2Absolutely yeah. It fills in a lot of different gaps that maybe take up more conversations. To get to the same end result.
Speaker 2I think it also helps people realize too that there is there are blind spots and we all move quick, and when we think of the Enneagram and the preferences, it reminds everyone that everyone has different blind spots. A blind spot for you might not be the same for me, or vice versa, and if you don't think of that, you can easily miss a line, even though you might think you're heading in the same direction. If you don't communicate consistently and often and keeping in mind what the other person's quick preferences might be, you might be on the road to potential disaster. That's extreme, but like, just depending on whatever it is, yeah, it's like oh man, we got to the end point and you're way over here and I'm here. How did that happen when I thought we were aligned and we were communicating? But if you're not getting to where you need to be in those conversations and that it's surface level, and so I think it helps people realize ask more questions to make sure that there's alignment and understanding.
Speaker 1Well, speaking of things that are tangential, professionally and personally, I mean, what you just described is it happens all the time in relationships with husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, whatever it might be If you're not communicating at a layer of depth that is mutually agreed upon, how will you ever know if you are aligned and moving in the right direction if you're not communicating and if you don't have the same objectives, if you don't have the same you know and and goals, right, you? Just you don't have, you don't have a chance if you don't communicate. It's just like you're kind of hoping that you end up at the same place and maybe you will, maybe you won't. One of the best examples that that was provided to me years ago is like, well, you know, 20 minutes into that flight, the pilot accidentally knocks the you know autopilot over by two degrees. You know, to the, to the West, right, and it was unbeknownst to anybody because it was a total accident.
Speaker 1Well, in the span of that eight hour flight, instead of landing in Paris, they landed in Norway, right, like that is what can happen when individuals aren't aligned early and often, and if you don't have those feedback loops in place and if you don't have um, you know those types of things to keep each other accountable, because we talk a lot about accountability, right? We talk a lot about feedback. You talk about a lot about vulnerability, personally and professionally. All of these are the types of things that you've championed for many, many years. Uh, when you hire individuals onto your team, you have an unbelievable track record on your team of success in the hiring process. Talk a little bit about that, if you would, because you guys don't miss very often.
Speaker 2You guys don't miss very often. Yeah, no, it's all about keeping it simple. You can teach somebody how to up-level acumen, things like that. You can teach anybody any of that, as long as they have the right behaviors, and so it's super important, regardless of their experience, that you're bringing on somebody that is humble, hungry, smart. You want somebody that has a little bit of competitive spirit, which is really good. Because this job wouldn't be nearly as fun if we didn't have some wins in there. Even the losses get us a little bit competitive too.
Speaker 1Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2And so that helps. And then smart emotional intelligence. We all have work and improvement that can be done in that area, but if you're open to it and you have some level of it, that's a win. Making sure that you know that you can always get better 1% better every day is important. We don't want people to join our team with egos. I mean, we're all a little bit in sales, so we all have a little bit of sales, so we all have like a little bit of you know that competitive spirit in a healthy way, but you don't want somebody that's joining for just themselves.
Speaker 2They don't care about the team. I'm going to go out and I'm going to get mine and that's it, and I don't need a team to win.
Speaker 1How do you identify some of this stuff with individuals that are historically early in their life experience or and or work experience that are historically early in?
Speaker 2their life experience and or work experience, asking good questions. Tell me about working with a team previously. Have you worked with a team before? What did you like about the team? What does it mean for you? What does a win look like for you? What is your favorite thing that you do on a day-to-day basis with other people? Like things like that outside of, obviously, you touch on the role you know. Hopefully they're interviewing you just as much as you're interviewing them.
Speaker 2That also speaks volumes with those very specific behaviors too, because pretty soon I know I know we have somebody really good that we're interviewing. If all of a sudden I feel like I'm being interviewed and then I feel very protective of like, well, you want to join our team? Like let me sell you on it when that's not how it started and I'm like wait a sec.
Speaker 1Yeah, what happened Okay?
Speaker 2Okay, I like this person.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2They've. They've hit the check boxes and if you can bring in somebody that has some experience in our products or similar industry, that's a huge win on top of that. But at the end of the day, it's not a deal breaker either, because, as long as you can, those behaviors are required, because if you do not have that, it will sabotage your team 100%, and it is so hard to recover from that, especially in a virtual world and when you can bring on people that protect against that right away. Organically, you're going to continue to focus on what you should be focusing on. You're going to be efficient and you guys are going to work through challenges together versus opposing each other.
Speaker 1Basically, when you think about because because I'll loop MC in here too right Cause, cause, michelle Cassidy, between the two of you guys you know obviously very close friends outside of the workplace and outside of wax. But you know, while, while you lead the team officially, I mean, I don't think it's out of bounds to say that you know the two of you have really been the, the stable stalwarts of of the team over time to champion these types of things, um, like the importance of hiring, like, you know, all of the process driven items that make everybody so successful. But if, if you were to think back to, um, perhaps some of the folks that that you brought onto the team again, which is rare that were, you know, quote, unquote misses, have you taken the time to process that and what did you learn?
Speaker 2Definitely We've had. We've had a few of them and we we hire good people, kind people, but sometimes there are just plain misses and I look back at those moments and usually it's under stress, usually there might be too many cooks in the kitchen from a decision standpoint and maybe I didn't do a good enough job of relaying the vision on what we're looking for again and being patient. I think for the most part we've been very patient throughout the hiring process throughout the years, but there sometimes even when you don't want to be yes, but throughout the times when we sorry, we don't have headcount for you to be able to backfill quite yet.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, but there's been moments where we've just felt the pressure and we needed somebody in that seat and in hindsight that was the worst thing we could have done, because we had the right team there already and we just maybe had to get a little bit more creative to make it work a little bit longer until that right person came along, because those misses that I think about they're not here anymore and it took a lot more effort and energy to get them to at least to where we needed them to be from a performance standpoint, and then, on top of it, maybe had to deal with them just not being a good fit for the team in general and then the trickle down effect of that of the individuals that have not been a good fit for the team.
Speaker 1What were some of the uh, what were some of the things that were exposed? And I don't want to dwell on the negative, but you've had such a track record. So, for context, I mean, I can, off the top of my head, think of four and anytime I start naming names I'm always going to forget somebody, so I hesitate to do that. But, um, individuals that have moved from your team and been promoted onto the sales team. So I think of Marley Brungus, I think of Deepa Thronefight, I think of Nicolette Herkenhoff. Um, and see, now this is where I'm going to start forgetting Caleb Yep, caleb Holt it's incredible.
Speaker 1Well, they're all incredible. And then individuals that have moved into other parts of the organization and have even come back from sales roles to join your team, right. So you know Jenny Broughton, you know supporting enterprise team in an incredibly impactful way. So you've had an abundance of success in the people that you've hired, not just for the roles that that particular job requisition required, right, but you've hired individuals that have worked their way up through the organization.
Speaker 1So, knowing that there's been so much success, when I think about just the couple of misses, like what were some of those behaviors or some of those things that presented themselves, you know where you're, just like, ah, shoot, like, and then, and then how do you process as a leader? You know what's fixable, what's coachable, how much of it is mindset on the individual. And then the last part of this question is going to be as somebody that maintains such a aura of positivity and playing for the team as a whole. You know the, the, the, the name on the on the front of the Jersey is so much more important than the name on the back, right. How do you process and internalize when somebody isn't there? That's a lot. That's a lot, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, so okay. So to answer the first part of your question, I will say in hindsight I had these concerns in the interview and it was true, and so throughout the process of them being on our team which I think is a great learning lesson, something that I won't repeat and so the interview is such an important piece of really understanding, like generally, who this person is. What is their overall mindset? Do they have a healthy mindset or a growth mindset? And healthy maybe isn't the right term. We all go through phases in our life where maybe I don't have always the healthiest mindset, but I have a growth mindset, like I want to move forward and I want to do what's right for my family, my team, like that's what we need. Some people just aren't like that in me.
Speaker 2That doesn't mean that they can't be that one day, but sometimes we can't be the people to help them with that because it's going to negatively impact others on the team and so that's what I will say to answer that question, that I saw it in the interview should have heated my own gut feeling and followed that yeah, and some of those behaviors to answer your question would be the unwillingness. So, like I said, they're oftentimes super kind, super nice people that we enjoy being around, but they have no flexibility or a huge uncomfortableness of being uncomfortable. Yeah, in the uncomfortable.
Speaker 1Yeah, no, that's good, that makes perfect sense. There's, you know, getting uncomfortable chasing things. You know, doing hard things right. Hard work is hard At some point this is one of my favorite quotes is and I'm going to mess it up, but you know, when something hard gets in the way, that just proves that that is the way. Right Like, nothing worthwhile is done without some challenge. Right Um, success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal. Right Things that are worth it are not easy.
Speaker 2No.
Speaker 1And so what I'm hearing you say is a little bit of mindset, a little bit of openness by individuals to receive information, feedback, as it were, or a willingness to look at things maybe from a different perspective. How much of that is is maybe age related versus just person related, cause you're you mentioned something about your gut which is so important.
Speaker 2Yeah, I. I would just say I don't know if a lot of it is necessarily age related. I think a lot of it is experience related. So experience, personally and professionally related you can tell a lot about somebody if you just ask what'd you do this last weekend? Did you do anything fun, depending on how they deliver that? I took my little kid fishing and he really wanted to do the fake minnows because he didn't want to use worms.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah, it freaks them out.
Speaker 2But we got both just so he could try both and then that way he could have options. We still had a ton of fun. That's like growth mindset or it's. I had to take my kid fishing and he loves it, but oh, he's just like I can't stand it. Like baiting the hook Like it was still fun, but oh, I just like not awesome.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And then it's like you're waiting for the, but this happened and it was so good.
Speaker 1Yep.
Speaker 2And then it's like oh okay, I'm sorry you had to do that.
Speaker 1It's like woof.
Speaker 2Imagine having to deal with that person every single day right, but I feel like I'm painting with a broad brush, because we all have those moments. Of course I've told you, Nick, like, oh my God, I had to do this this weekend. But you know me.
Speaker 2Of course I'm not in an interview Totally different and it it just see like, it's almost like this is your one moment to share who you are as a person and what you can do to improve and better this organization, and so, like any moment that you can have an experience and share that, how can you paint positivity and the ability to overcome something?
Speaker 1In a genuine way. Correct, yeah, because anybody can fake an interview for an hour or even a couple of different interviews, and we've seen that too. That's dangerous, also because those people are generally pretty darn good at it. But how do you internalize it, Sam, as a leader, when you have a miss, whether it's human capital or process or just just a mistake like how do you, how do you internalize that?
Speaker 2I don't. I don't know if this is a good answer, but it is all gut, like I can just feel it. And then that leads me to ask more questions, maybe get a little bit more involved. If whatever it is isn't like within my direct sphere, for example, um, but I just want to learn more about it, ask questions to maybe validate what my gut is feeling, or challenge my gut, like why do I feel this way? Why am I? Am I under stress, for example? Or is this not up to my liking? Why not? Did I provide enough direction? Probably not knowing me fire aim ready sometimes, and so that's a good example in check for me. So usually the gut is the first thing, though that leads me to that conclusion after some maybe digging a little bit.
Speaker 1Yeah, but what you've just described, though, sam, is such a masterclass in mindset and emotional intelligence, because you're describing an internal process where you are. You are looking uh, you're looking retrospectively to identify gaps in the process for you personally, right, so many people are just onto the next thing and they don't really care, or or or they don't know enough to consider looking back and saying, man, I wonder how, how do I, how do I do better next time? Right, you know, look look at ourself first. As leaders, we have to look at ourselves first before we can cast any stones or blame, and generally, in my experience, that's where it stops Like you don't really need to look much further. My experience, that's where it stops Like you don't really need to look much further.
Speaker 1When you think about those of us cause I'm the same way kind of you know that that gut is so important.
Speaker 1It's really hard to describe, but at some point you have to give yourself permission to use your gut and you have to be in a position where you believe to be true that your gut is actually the most beneficial portion of the process.
Speaker 1How'd you get there to be like, give yourself the permission of like, oh no, no, my gut is right here, and my gut is right more often, cause I know, for me personally it almost was I shouldn't say almost. It was very hard to say like okay, this is what I'm going to utilize primarily or first as sort of a vetting motion, but at the beginning it was just kind of like well, that's sort of like I don't even know what the word would be like narcissistic in a way, to think that my gut is better than others, or that my gut is more important than, perhaps, a process or something like that. I'm sort of rambling through this question, I guess, but I think you know where I'm at Like how did you, how'd you give yourself permission to be able to utilize your own gut as the primary way to do a?
Speaker 2lot of examples to showcase, when I didn't follow my gut and what happened in those instances. And I think my gut was telling me something, but I wanted to make sure everybody else felt fine, accommodated, we all feel good about this decision and then not speaking up as to why maybe I don't feel good about it or there's something there that's I can't put my finger on, yeah, and so I just need more time to figure that out, bypassing that, like in hindsight yeah because well, everyone else is good with it, so I gotta be good with it.
Speaker 2That I mean my gut maybe is wrong yeah too many of those things maybe happened one too many times for me to now be like wait a sec. This is how I feel and we need we should chat through that, because I need to make sure that maybe it is something that maybe I don't understand that would help me get there. Or we need to ask more questions that would help me get there, or what is your gut saying? Because maybe that's all we need to talk about at this point.
Speaker 1It's a good point, that cause. It can be your your primary vetting motion or it can be your kind of last layer of defense, Right when, when either installing a process or or bringing somebody on the team. It's probably both honestly.
Speaker 2Well, and I want to say too, like in hindsight, the not listening to my gut and thinking everything else was fine. I think a lot of times too, if I were to connect with those leaders previously, if we're talking about hiring some, bringing someone on, they would say well, I had a gut feeling about that too, but nobody else did.
Speaker 1So I you know it's like that, raising your hand in class.
Speaker 2Yes, it's the social loafing thing and that happens so much.
Speaker 1Just social loafing.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a psychology term.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's good Mastered in psychology. Well, thanks for outlining that for us, because I think that's like a next layer of depth that we can get into another time, specifically around those types of things as well as the Enneagram. But another time, um, specifically, you know, run those types of things as well as the Enneagram. But I want to touch on in closing as we, as we sort of wrap up but I also don't want to rush rush through it either I want to touch on, um, just a couple of quick hit questions. So, what's the?
Speaker 2most. What's the best part of your job working with people? Point blank and helping them realize their potential. From a leadership standpoint, that's my. There isn't literally nothing better.
Speaker 2And then throw in a few like wins Like I love the pressure of the chase and the hunt too, and I get that high from my team with what they're working on, and so that's, I'd say, a mix of all of that rolled in there. And wait I really quick. I do also love like I make it a big deal to when we're talking about zooming out the end goal, like I know, sometimes we hear people say I know, sometimes we hear people say we provide a service, we sell products. It's not like rocket science, it's not brain surgery. And I'm like dude, we're providing the rocket scientists and brain surgeons benefits, though Like let's make that easy for them so they don't F up on somebody's surgery, so they're not stressed out. You know what I mean. Like it's really impactful.
Speaker 2I don't mean to.
Speaker 1Maybe it's too much caffeine, but we don't need to apologize for that comment. That's fantastic, right, and in an otherwise. And that's why you're such a great leader, sam is because in an in an otherwise. Well, let me, let me put it this way you could have somebody come into your team and just walk around for a week and just be like what are they doing all day. One could surmise that it's a rather rote job. In fact, call it turn and burn in certain circumstances. Right, because we are working through.
Final Thoughts and Appreciation
Speaker 1Well, you guys are doing all the hard work on eight to 10,000 proposals a year. I mean, that is no small feat to be able to do that, because solid processes have been put in place. As a leader, you've been able to paint a picture and a vision that, no, no, no, sure, from time to time, the actual act of the job might be somewhat repetitive at times. However, this is the why, right, the Simon Sinek golden circle that you talk about a lot. You know the why in the middle of it, if we don't know what that is, everything else sort of just becomes noise and doesn't lead anybody towards kind of that North Star. You know that you've also talked about a lot, so I believe that makes you such a great leader is to be able to paint that picture and describe that vision in detail about what makes the job more meaningful than perhaps the actual task at hand. What's your least favorite part of your job?
Speaker 2Back to what we were talking about earlier and how I had shared that I loved when the team needs it and where my when my attention is required to get back into it with them, like boots on the ground.
Speaker 2Usually it's easy for me to get there because, whatever it is, the ground, usually it's easy for me to get there, because whatever it is I have my eyes on over here is maybe not always the most fun thing, Maybe it's a long-term project that eventually will benefit our team, but it takes a lot of exploratory discussions around different teams, different areas and is it even going to happen? And so that's where I think that's, even though I'm very fortunate to be a part of that decision process and have a seat at the table, which is so important. And that does not get lost on me Sometimes if we don't know where we're headed with that yet, it drives me a little wild, like a little crazy, like okay, but do we have a call to action here? Because so then I'm all in. Sometimes that gets to be a little much, but that I'm stuff, so they can continue to focus on their role in laser focus.
Speaker 1Well, it's part of the whole remove barriers philosophy and I would say we've sort of added over time. You know, it's more than just removing barriers. It's creating speed lanes. You know how do we remove those barriers. But then also here's the HOV lane that we can pop into and pass all the other cars, because we know what to look out for, we know how to do it better, we know how to be more efficient, we know how to communicate. Yeah, real quick on prioritization. You know from where you were as an individual contributor growing up into the leadership ranks, adding in a family to the mix, you know. So you're a. You're an incredible mom. You're an incredible mom, you're an incredible wife, you're an incredible friend, but you're also an incredible leader.
Speaker 2How do you juggle it all. Any tips for individuals that are looking to or are perhaps on that path? Yes, I think I've learned this a little bit the hard way too. Um, I've explained this to my husband so many times because he's helped me process, through all of it, that I get to work with such amazing coworkers every day and hire on those behaviors we talked about, that I have a great opportunity to lead them. It's so fun to be able to do something together. And then I have these little kids over here that don't listen to me, don't care about the mindset I'm in and the why behind something, and it just like eats me. It's like oh man, like this mom, stuff is hard.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But then you see the glimmers of they get it.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And they are learning a lot and I get to bring home great examples and teach them and they get to see what hard work looks like and they get to see their mom doing something really cool yeah, and being with people. She wants to be around, which is amazing. So to prioritize that. Sometimes I need to think about those examples and my why to help me figure out what I should be focused on. If it's work-related revenue is king, anything real revenue should take up my time if it's on my plate, and then everything else follows. And then obviously, family comes first.
Speaker 2I have an amazing opportunity with where I'm at right now the leaders I have right now to be able to prioritize taking lunch at kind of a weird time of the day so I can go get my son from school or be there when the bus drops him off or in the summertime, or leave the nanny at that time and spend the afternoon with him while I finish up work, and for him he loves to be able to just veg out.
Speaker 2Usually he was busy make some popcorn for the both of us. I can finish off meetings, finish out my day. I could not do that like 10 years ago, and so that's awesome that I've been able to prioritize things in a way to also make my family part of that mix, and so advice for people is, if it doesn't feel right from a prioritization point, probably isn't. If you're burnt out and you're getting sick, often something has to change. Breakfast and water, good things that I've learned, and just planning ahead, even if it's little bullet points, that's helped me, like what are the three big rocks today that I have to get done?
Speaker 1That's great advice.
Speaker 2And maybe one of them is my son's doctor appointment or my daughter's haircut.
Speaker 1Probably should be.
Speaker 2Yeah, because maybe I moved it once already.
Speaker 1That's very relatable, yeah.
Speaker 2And so it's like if you can check those three things off at the end of the day, despite what else came in, you can hopefully compartmentalize that and view it as a success which relieves, like energy, stress, all those things. But if not, what is one more thing that you could do to help you get to the rest of your day with your family? You know so you've always said, nick, that there's nothing worse than a salesperson that has left for the day but hasn't gone home. I think that's a great way to kind of gauge that, to pre-sales even for my team.
Speaker 1So the only thing worse than a person who's quit for the day but hasn't gotten home yet as a leader who's quit for the day and continues to communicate.
Speaker 1Yeah, oh and I've made that mistake a ton and I will. We all, we all do as leaders, right? I mean, you sort of want to push through and get to the other side of it because you have that pressure of people counting on you and you have that that pressure of wanting to be able to perform at your best and be at your best when your best is required. But the reality is is, you know, as we learned through you know, essentialism is that protecting the asset is paramount. Yes, you know I, you can't be the best mom unless you're, you're, healthy. You know, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. You know, whatever your prioritization is there, and you know, same, same with me, and I'd say that's one thing that you know we've worked through together, thing that you know we've worked through together. Um, and in closing, I, you know, I just um, you know I, I know I certainly wouldn't be where I am without you. Our, our team absolutely would not be where it is without you.
Speaker 1Um, you have been the constant in my life, from a professional perspective and now a personal perspective, because I've always enjoyed getting our families together to be able to hang out and, um, you know, we've come a long way from drinking beer at three 30 at Grazi's to now, you know, getting our kids together to hang out with with our spouses.
Speaker 1Um, you are what good looks like, and my hope is that more and more people have the opportunity to get to meet and work with the Sammy Brown that I know and love, because you know, you are the one that instituted the ride or die in the West when we were working together. You are the one that brought that team together and and is responsible for what that team is today. I was just along for the ride and you are the one that continues to fight for keeping this team together and providing an example of what great looks like when continuing to look at what's possible, and I will be forever indebted to you for your friendship, your support and just your leadership of me in many cases over the years, and I sincerely appreciate you giving us some of your time and energy today. Sammy, thank you so much.
Speaker 2Well, geez, that's really really nice and I never know how to follow up with that. So thank you for always saying such nice things. But back to the 10-year-old Sammy Brown, or 8-year-old, it's like I just needed somebody to help me see my potential and there's no way I could have done that without you, Nick. That's very kind, and other leaders too, of course. So I just really appreciate your friendship and everything we've done together. We've sold a lot of things together, a and everything we've done together.
Speaker 2We've sold a lot of things together, a lot of things internally and externally, and we'll continue, and I hope that more people can have what our team has, what we have, because I think that their life is going to be better because of it. We can continue to share what good looks like in that way too.
Speaker 1Well, you could say that in a way. It could say that in a way, it's just the beginning.
Speaker 2It's still just the beginning. It's still just the beginning.
Speaker 1Sam, you're the best. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2You are Thank you.
Speaker 1Have a great day you too. Thanks, bye-bye.
Speaker 2Good job, Nicola.
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