Ep.10: Building A Business Without The Rulebook w/ Mike Dragosavich

There’s something about builders that I can’t stop thinking about.

Not the Instagram version. Not the “look at this cool logo we made” version. I mean the kind of person who wakes up one day and says, “You know what would be fun? Let’s create something out of thin air… and then be responsible for it forever.”

That’s today’s guest — Mike Dragosavich, founder of Spotlight Media.

On paper, it’s simple. Founder. Media company. Visionary. Leader.

But that’s like saying the Olympics are just “some races and routines.” Technically accurate. Deeply incomplete.

Mike grew up on the South Side of Chicago. And you can hear it in him. There’s a competitiveness. A chip. A standard. Not in an arrogant way — in a “we’re not skipping reps” kind of way.

And this conversation isn’t about business tactics as much as it is about that internal standard.

Because what fascinated me as we talked was this: performance isn’t an accident for him. It’s a decision.

I’m fascinated by performance.

The Olympics are wild. Years of work for one moment. No hiding. No edits. Just execution.

Entrepreneurship is similar — except the moment lasts about ten years and payroll is attached to it.

As we talked about the early days of Spotlight, about risk, about pressure, about growth… what stood out wasn’t hype. It was ownership.

Ownership of mistakes.
Ownership of standards.
Ownership of effort.

There’s an edge to him — but it’s disciplined. Directed. Not chaotic.

And this is where it intersects with Time & Energy.

You can’t add more hours to your day, but you can reclaim the energy that gives those hours meaning.

Performance isn’t about cramming more into your calendar. It’s about aligning your energy with what actually matters. It’s about managing your internal state so pressure doesn’t start driving the bus.

Mike talks about competing. He talks about pushing. He talks about expecting more — from himself and from others.

But he also talks about growth. About building people. About culture. About the weight of leadership.

Because at some point, high performance stops being about you winning.

It becomes about what the people around you feel when you walk into the room.

Building a company from scratch sounds glamorous on LinkedIn. It’s less glamorous when it’s your name on the line and the decisions are real.

There’s a toughness in Mike’s story. But it’s not reckless grind-for-the-sake-of-grind energy. It’s intentional. It’s focused.

He doesn’t just work hard.
He chooses where to direct his effort.

Time is fixed.
Energy is renewable — but only when it’s aligned.

You can hear alignment in this episode. Alignment between identity and action. Between standards and execution. Between vision and discipline.

You’ll also hear evolution.

The Mike who started isn’t the Mike leading now. And that’s the other side of performance we don’t talk about enough — you don’t just scale revenue. You have to scale yourself.

As you listen, consider:

Where do his standards come from?
How does he process pressure?
What does he refuse to compromise?
And where has growth required him to change?

This isn’t just a conversation about media.

It’s about grit.
It’s about guts.
It’s about building something that didn’t exist until you decided it would.

And staying in the arena long enough to see it through.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Burger. Good night, buddy. You want to come down? Can you come down?

unknown 0:07

No.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Mike Dragosovich, how are you? Pretty good. Good to see you. Thanks for swinging by.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

I we just had the family, well, the family's still upstairs finishing a little dinner. Kids are playing, and you were saying that you guys did a little Christmas in Florida, correct?

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Yeah, we do that every year. My my dad lives in Florida. Okay. Everybody's from Chicago and they couldn't wait to get out.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Makes sense. Even though the bears are hot. They don't want to stay there and feel the energy. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

But got lucky though. You know, they're in Jupiter, Florida. It's amazing. My aunts, uncles, cousins, there's like 20 of them. So it's it's a cool place to go. Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah, that's a beautiful area. That's a fun area.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

It was an adventure. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Because remind me how old the kiddos are.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

We got a seven and a five-year-old. Seven and five.

unknown 1:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

And yeah, we do it every year. We stay at PGA National. It's an amazing resort. And we like, you know, the fourth quarter is so busy for me. It's so busy for my wife. And we just count the hours to trip, you know. Yeah. And and this year, just everybody gets the flu. We're in Florida going, oh my goodness, what's this gonna look like? You know? But thank God for family. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Made it into something fun anyway. Good. Good. Well, that's that's awesome. You so remind me now, how how many years of spotlight media are we in? Where where are we at? Just celebrated 15. 15 years, congratulations. Yeah. What's been the most memorable experience if you have one?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

I'm sure there's many, but you know, I I think just starting a company when literally every everybody told me it was a bad idea, yeah, and having to figure it out and do just wacky things to survive, you know. I know that's kind of generic, but I mean it's been a really cool, hard, crazy ride. Yeah, you know, on trying something that no one said was popular or the thing to do, you know. So it's fun to still be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

What what would you say would be like one thing what one thing going into it that you believed to be true that maybe you had to unlearn as you were building? Something you think it's like I think this is how I think it's gonna be, and then you realize rather quickly that perhaps okay, this isn't exactly how it's gonna be. I gotta maybe change my re reframe my mindset or expectations on anything from day one to today.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, there's a lot. Uh you know, when you have an idea, you always for me, I looked at, you know, you always just kind of look at all the upsides. Yeah. And you think it's easy and you think there's so much money, you're like, oh, if I do this and that and the other thing, and you calculate stuff and you just see this path to amazing things ahead. Yeah, you have no idea how hard it is to get there, you know? And then you learn over time that the hard part's the best part, and that's where you learn the most. And but yeah, that that was the that's what I use all the time now, too. Even when I help help people when with their business ideas, I'm like, because everybody thinks every business idea is the best, all they can think about is like all the upsides, and I'm like, I don't care how foolproof it is and how much demand there is for it, it's not gonna be easy. Yeah, and you've got to go all in, you can't just side hustle anything, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Nothing that you want to make you know, the feed a family on for sure, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

I get so many, so many people that approach me for like side hustles all the time. Yeah, like I'm uh you know, I want to start this business, and yeah, you're a marketing guy, like you know, think about all the money you can make. I'm like, if you don't if you're not gonna fully dedicate to anything, it's probably not gonna work. I mean, that's what I learned pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah, you know, yeah, no matter what it is, you gotta go all in, or it's what was what was your impetus for for starting Spotlight Media?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Well, there's uh it's kind of an interesting quick story. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I mean, I had a a in college, high school, I always had a you know, a composition notebook of ideas, you know, obviously a t-shirt company kind of stuff, you know, all those things young people want to do. Used to go door to door when I was a kid selling things and you know, not necessarily lemonade stands, but I was always churling something. And I grew up in a in an environment with my family where I grew up in the perfect time where nobody my dad, my stepdad, my mom, like nobody, everybody was in chaos, so I was on an island. So I I loved I had just always figured things out. I was very independent, I had to be independent, so I think that's what led to it. And then and so and I just like fun crazy things. So when I was in the NFL, started a blog, loved websites, always loved technology, you know, led to another here and there, started a VIP card business thing, anyway. There's a whole nother story in this, but it it it was never like uh I'm going to do this, it just always kind of happened, yeah. In your in your blood from day one. But there was always I'm going to, you know, do something on my own and I want to own something.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

So going back to your time in Chicago, grew up in the south side of Chicago, correct? And you hear people say, you know, south side of Chicago, you know, I don't know what goes through many people's minds, but I know the friends that I have from Chicago aren't aside from yourself, are not from the South Side of Chicago. So maybe dispel any rumors or confirm maybe some of the rumors, or tell in summary, tell us a little bit about what your childhood was like in the South Side of Chicago.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Well, so Chicago's determined it's very um, you know, pocketed. Sure. Okay. So like if you say Southside, the experience you live could be literally different from a hundred yards from each other, you know, block to block kind of thing, right? Yeah. So we lived in a neighborhood that was on the outskirts of Chicago that was called Oak Lawn. Oh, yeah. And and like if you know, if you go over 103rd and Cicero and you go that way, it's Polish, you go that way, it's Greek, you go that way, it's Mexican, you go, you know, yeah. It's very segmented. And the experiences in those areas were all different, you know. Our area was known for a lot of Chicago employees, firefighters, oh okay, those kind of things, yes, and very Irish. But blue collar, you know, everybody, everybody I knew was a pipe fitter or ironworker or electrician, those kind of things, you know. So what I grew up around was very masculine. People would probably call that toxic masculinity now. I mean, like the tougher you were, the more fights you got in, the more you were like the mob, the cooler you were. And and then, you know, a lot of booze and a lot of craziness like that with the Irish side. And it was just kind of a shit show, you know, and a lot of uh aggression, a lot of you know, just negative is nice, and it's the opposite out here. Like it, you know, yeah, a compliment is the bust your balls kind of thing. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

It's just the whole like reverse kind of deal. Yeah, you get the Scandinavian, you know, oh shucks and and lack of people talking about anything, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

It's just the stoicism almost of a like if I if I go to see my friends, if you're not making fun of me, then I'm concerned. Sure. You know? Uh makes sense. So it's just kind of wacky in that way, but I I also didn't I didn't enjoy it. I I felt like I was different, and that's what drove me to North Dakota. I was just like, I want to get as far away as I can. Yeah, because I I don't know if I was just built differently or how I grew up, but I just I didn't vibe with that. Yeah, and I I don't know, it just wasn't my thing, and that's where I fell in love with this area because I was like, what, why? You know, why is it good to just come home and after road rage and just dinner conversations are bitching about shit the whole time and and arguing and just so aggressive culture, yeah, you know? Yeah, and now there's upsides in that, and that's what I hope to take into my business, which is like not being so passive and getting stepping up, getting making decisions, getting things done, being assertive. But where I grew up was more aggressive than I heard of it, you know, yeah, and that was bad.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

I've lived in Atlanta, Georgia. I've spent a lot of time in you know Los Angeles and a few other places. Nobody's from those places, right? So like you don't have the generational like like Chicago Bears fans, right? I mean, that's four generations, five generations deep of grandpa's grandpa rooting for the Bears, you know, and that's just that's like in your bones. Nobody in LA is like you know, bleeding Dodger Blue because they're from Brooklyn, you know what I mean. There, there's that generational stuff there. That's what I've always thought was was unique about areas like Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, that you actually have you know some generational lines. But like in that environment, is that just kind of like how your your family was raised too?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Well, I've told people this before, but I like where I grew up, it almost felt like you grew up in a mini Europe, right? Sure. Like so you go to an area and it's a a country, yeah. And I know it sounds crazy, but it is, and it's you know, generations that have lived between these street signs, and so you go in there and it's a full culture, yeah. Like you do, you welcome people differently, go into their house, and there's different customs. I mean, it's like yeah. So with us, it was very we bled into an Irish, Irish Polish, right? So our conversations constantly are around those traditions, like it what it and that doesn't happen around here, you know. I mean, you might you'll hear about German or talk about Ludafisk. Right. But but these generations have different ways of or these cultures have different ways of treating people and and solving conflict and doing things, you know. And what everybody wanted in Chicago was to be Italian, you know, they wanted to be Al Capone and tough guys, that kind of stuff. And that's where you know you you put, you know, you you now have uh Irish, Polish people that want to be Italian. That's a crazy mix. I'll tell you. That's funny.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

It's a fun, it's a funny visual.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean that's so with that being said, you know, it's very aggressive. And you know, you'll go. I I'd have buddies at like I had a buddy that was Greek, and like the dad didn't let his wife talk unless she was spoken to, you know, like stuff like that. And you're just so you don't yeah, you know, you don't experience no you gotta kind of like know what you're doing, yeah. But most mostly what I experienced was just more of the blue-collar lifestyle where like you know, every buddy I had's dad was working 15 hours or nights, and they're just crabby all the time and and drinking constantly and just you know, rule with an iron fist kind of deal. Yeah, so it was just yeah, it was just very like, you know, I I remember first year at NDSU, I come back and I'm like, I didn't see one fist fight this year. It's crazy. You know, and you go back for Thanksgiving or something, you see like five fist fights, and you're just like, yeah, this is refreshing. I'd have to deal with this. You go out and somebody's just gonna get, you know, in a in a almost kill somebody because of a white socks cubs you know, argument. Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

But but but I guess maybe that's that's sort of what I'm trying to refer to is just like just these these generational perspectives that you know I I we can't even relate to up here. You know, it's like by saying that you're a Cubs fan instead of a Cub Sox fan or something like that, you're you're actually insulting my grandfather, you know, who's buried six blocks away, right? You know, like how dare you.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah, or or I need any excuse to let my anger out. That too fighting somebody. Sure. And if I fight somebody, my friends are gonna think I'm cool. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Fascinating. So at what point did you know that that environment wasn't a place that you wanted to continue living in?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

You know, I I don't know. You know, this is this is something that's kind of interesting that I don't like to share, but I will. So I apparently I was an attractive guy. Okay. Okay. So I got recruited to to do Abercrombie stuff. Okay. Traveling around for Abercrombie catalogs. And really. So I was an Abercrombie model. And I got to experience outside of my bubble, and I'm like, this is a pretty cool world. Because I mean, we were literally in a bubble. Yeah, you know, you it made me realize that like every friend I have is that like 99% of them, their entire future is carved out, you know? And I did not want that. Yeah. You know, how did you know that though?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Like, how did you know that you didn't want that?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Well, I think that was that was the experience. Sure. You know, I I was I worked at the when I was 16, I worked at Abercrombie the Mall just to make money, and that was the height of that brand, you know, it's like everybody loved it. Yeah. And then all these like regional managers would fly in from all over the country, and they're like, Oh, you got the look for us, you know, now in hindsight, like, holy crap, I was but so yeah, so then you start so I in that experience, I started meeting people from all over the country, and then I started going on appearances and like photo shoot things, and you know, and you meet other models and people from you know Ohio and Kansas and all these things, you know. Yeah, and it's like the first time you ever met anybody from outside the bubble, really, you know. And then, you know, couple that with starting to get good at football, and then you start, you know, just meeting people from outside the bubble. So I think the the key to this was like you're in such a bubble, and it's it's eye-opening now too, and you look at like politics and stuff, and I think about that. Like you, these these, you know, networks of communities, even in Chicago now, they have no idea what goes on outside of it. And so you don't even know what's possible, right? You know, you just think my only path is in the network I'm in or the community I'm in. And so it's just like a it's a it's a different perspective, and it's starting to go through my brain when you see some of the stuff in the news now.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Well, not to be reductive, but it makes me think of uh like Goodwill Hunting, the movie Goodwill Hunting, you know, those guys they're just like all but one, right? Is I mean, they're baked, they they knew exactly where they were gonna be doing in 30 years. And I I'm certain that you are equally as smart as Matt Damon was in that movie. Uh certainly better looking, no doubt.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

No, I think I I don't know, this is probably the first time I've kind of thought about that question, but I think that's it. I mean, I I know it's something I don't talk about much, but it was it was a significant, it was one of the only significant times I've ever had like really any connection with outside of where I grew up, right? And interesting. Because outside of that, it's just go to sports, go to school, go home, hang with your friends. Yeah, right. So all you know is in that bubble.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Yeah. But and some of that is consistent, I'd say, to what you experience up here. I mean, certainly, you know, the but doing it in an environment where you're not coming home to, you know, perhaps a negative, as much of a maybe a negative or or aggressive, I think it was the word that you used, you know, just environment, you know, where the tensions are high all the time, right? I mean, that's what I'm kind of hearing you say.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, there's probably like everyone experiences it at a different scale. Yeah, you know, like like when I think about like the you know, real bad neighborhoods in Chicago, that's worse than it. Like when I saw talk about bubble, yeah, they have access to nothing outside of that. They think there's no way out outside of rapping or basketball, right? And if they talk to a couple people or just even had a taste of experience I had, it would change everything. Yeah, you see what I'm saying? And then Fargo, you know, probably still in a bubble. And I feel that I actually feel that now in business, you know. Sure. But it's a probably a bigger bubble, you know, a little more opportunity, probably, right? Yeah, but it's everybody's still in all their own bubbles, they're just different kinds of things. But I think they're different types of bubbles, you know. Oh, no question. More and and probably harder to get out of. Yeah. Mine was a little harder, there's way harder than mine, but you know, see where I'm going.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

It got me thinking about the antithesis of that, right? Is the the guy that's born on third base, you know, that has ever had everything handed to them from day one. That their bubble includes lake homes and first-class seats, if not private jets, or you know, which again, you know, it's just that's a different type of bubble that anyway.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Well, and you could probably I mean, that bubble, it it's you know, I think you can interpret them all and they can all have their strengths and weaknesses. That one would be more like how many times have you seen these type of people limited to happiness, though? Yeah, right. So there's there's value in some of these bubbles too, if you can get out of any of them, right? So, like I got out of this bubble, but now I'm so appreciative because of what I went through, and I know I've learned a lot of lessons, and I know how to approach things mentally, and I feel like I appreciate things other people wouldn't. Whereas somebody might be in this bubble we all think is the greatest bubble ever, but feel no happiness, right? Or have never gone or weathered storms or feel any accomplishment or feel anything like that, you know. So I don't know, maybe we're on to some here.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Well, Jordan Peterson would suggest, you know, he he believes to be true. If you follow any of Jordan Peterson, I mean, the his meaning of life is responsibility, right? The the greater the responsibility, the greater the journey, the more responsibility a person takes on, specifically a man, because you know, that's just kind of the way he he looks at it. It's like if you take on more responsibility, you have you have more abilities to learn, right? And understand who you are as an individual because you are you're you're you're lifting a load, right? You're doing something that is worthwhile that isn't helping just just you or your family, you're helping others. And and that's what he would call the meaning of life. And that stuck with me the first time I heard that a couple of years ago. Because everybody kind of gets in the doldrums once in a while about like, what am I what am I really doing today? You know, like what am I offering the world today? At least I do. And and I heard that, and that really that really stuck with me. The greater responsibility, the greater the journey. And and if you don't, if you don't have the need to pick up a heavy load and carry it from one place to another because you were you were born in a situation where that wasn't maybe that that load was lifted for you, that perspective becomes very tunnel-like, right? So interesting. So, how did you end up in Fargo?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Well, I uh was recruited. That's how I I uh learned that Fargo is real. I had a football recruiter come in and ask me if I heard of North Dakota State or Fargo, and I never never have. I'd heard of the movie, you know. And but so they're like, you know, North Dakota would be good, and you know, these kind of things, but I didn't really care about that. I more at that point I was caring more about financials, you know. Sure. And they were the only school at the time that was, you know, the the tuition was only twelve twelve thousand bucks, and I got they would have given me a partial scholarship. The rest of my offers were to schools that everybody went to, and that's what I didn't want to do.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Where else? Where were some of the other offers?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

It was like the eastern Illinois, Western Illinois, Illinois State. Like those kind of schools. I did have a redshirt, preferred redshirt option to Northwestern, and I have Fitzpatrick in our out in our house eating meatloaf. Oh, cool. Good dude. Great guy. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

But uh that must have been towards the beginning of his coaching, head coaching career, huh?

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah, he wasn't head coach. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't have a high enough ACT score, so I I couldn't get in, and I I tried to take it a couple times. But where I went to school was like a football powerhouse in in Illinois. And so like my algebra teacher was one of the coaches. Like we went and played Counter Strike instead of class, you know. So like I couldn't get a good score if I tried because I never physically learned anything. I never had to. But yeah, that works, right?

unknown 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

It's like, you know, like my teammate in basketball is Dwayne Wade. Like, we were like an athlete powerhouse high school. Yeah. It was almost like college where it's like you don't really need to go to class, just focus on sports, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

What was it reminding me of the name of your your high school?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

It was uh Richard's high school. Yeah. So yeah, it was just built for sports, like they'd ship kids in and stuff. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

So I don't think I knew the Dwayne Wade thing. You did it? Uh huh. Yeah. Fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah. Same age? No. No, I was a sophomore when he was a senior. There we go. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Okay. Did you get to know him well?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Not really. Yeah. But and no one thought he was going to be that good. Yeah. Because we we played other guys that were going straight to the league, like Eddie Curry, Darius Miles. So those were like, holy cow. Yeah. He was going to Marquette. So we're like, he might be good. No one thought he'd be what he is now. Yeah. You know? But it was still pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

So you end up in Fargo. So recruited as a receiver. Started as receiver then, or began your your college career kind of in the receiver room?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah, that's all lanky positions, you know? Yeah. Pitcher, first base, receiver. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Guy that held up plays for Dwayne Wade on the on the bench.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

It's awesome. So when you and so what year would have that been when you enrolled at NDSU?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Uh fall 2003.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Oh, three. Gotcha. Okay. Where was NDSU in the FCS transition at that point?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

So I lucked out when I committed. I didn't realize the four years I play was the transition. So couldn't make the playoffs, you know?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

They they left that out in the conversations? Yeah, they didn't really make it clear.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

But it didn't matter. It was an awesome experience. Yeah. When did you start punting? So that to me, that's my favorite story of all time. I love it. It's really pretty awesome. So I go in my first year was the first year of Coach Bowl. And so he brought all his big hitters. Jimmy Burrow, Joe Burrow's dad, the coordinator. So little Jimmy was like in fifth grade and he was on the sideline all the time. That's so cool. Yeah. So I was scout, I was uh in the receiver spot doing really well. And then Gus Bradley, who you know was uh was head coach in the NFL for a couple years with the 49ers now, he used to punt for NDSU. Now people don't know that. No, so he was the pseudo-punting coach, you know. So at the time, the punter, Bonticelli, it was his last year, and so they needed a scout team backup punter, so they had a tryout. And Coach Bradley said, All right, guys, come on, you know. And I I did a little punting in high school because my best friend was the kicker and punter, too. And so we'd always punt to each other, so I knew enough. And so I won the tryout, didn't know what I was getting myself into, but I'm happy to help the team, you know. Yeah, and then the first day I get in, they put me on scout team punt, and then I learned pretty quickly I didn't like it because that's where they try to block the punt. Oh, and they would just light me up. I mean, my shins would be bleeding, and you know, no one would hit the ball, they'd just basically destroy me. I'm like, what the hell, coach? Yeah, thanks, buddy. So what was funny the next day I showed up, and every all the rookies have masking tape on their helmet with their last name. Mine just said meat. They saw how they saw how banged up I was after the first scout team punt because everybody just I was bleeding. I'm like, what is going on? And so that was pretty funny.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

So you can't get hit during a game, but in practice they make sure that you understand that you're on a football team.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, you go. I mean, I went through the whole year without getting an injury, and I basically almost got injured daily on scout team punting. So I went through the year, happy to do it, kind of the thing. And then so as the year went on, season over, the next summer, went home to for like three weeks. And of course, when you're a rookie, you go home, you go to your high school, you go train with your old coaches, whatever. And my coach is like, hey, you think you can help set up this camp? This Ray guy is having a camp. I'm like, who's that? Oh, he's up, he was like the world's greatest punter. Like, Tywe guy. Yeah, I'm like, Well, that's interesting. I'm like, Well, I'm I'm technically the backup punter.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

So he's like, Well, why don't you, you know, help us? Like, I had to set all the cones up and do all stuff. And then I I'm like, You mind if I attend. So I attended the the camp, and it was like a couple hundred kids or whatever. And this was like two days, and they have a competition at the end, and I won the competition, and I was in in and they chart like how high and how far you kick, like 10 punts or whatever. And I was like leading the nation out of all those camps. Wow. I'm like, well, that's interesting. No idea. Yeah, yeah. And apparently, you know, just got the right build for it. I don't know. So they show you some things, and you're just like, Holy crap, is that far? And they're like, Yeah, that's really far. So that's cool. So I go back to NDSU for uh camp and they they recruit a guy from Florida and a real good punter from community college or something. And so he starts the first week, he's doing great. I'm like, awesome. I'm gonna go to be a receiver. I had a chance to travel, I was doing really good. I think uh, you know, potentially the year after that start. I was like, this is life is good. I show up one day for practice, and they get no one can find the punter. He's gone. Coaches, nobody knows where he's at. Doesn't make practice. They start calling around. His house got hit by a hurricane, he just took off, didn't even tell the coaches, quit. So we got like two and a half weeks of the first game, and so coach bowl's like, Well, you're our punter, you know, and I'm like, perfect, you know, I can be a receiver and a punter. He's like, no, no, no, no, you're just a punter. We have no backup. So I was I was pretty pissed. I was like, God damn it, you know? Yeah, I suppose. And so we get to this this first game in northern Colorado, and I get I kick my first punt and I shank it so bad. I mean, it was like five-yard punt, straight right, and all it right towards the cheerleaders, and like there's like 20 of them, they all duck, except one girl sticks her head up and like the ball like hits her in the face, breaks her nose. Oh no, they had to stop the game. Are you serious? They had to bring a card on. No, it's like a 30-minute delay. And I'm like, Coach, I don't know, man. Um because you shanked a button to get a girl in the page.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

That's fantastic. I'm like, I don't know if this is for me. Do you have to sign any paperwork, like liability paperwork or anything? Like, all right, you can run as our punter, but we need to sign these papers.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

I was already mad. And then oh my god, but then the next like three punts are amazing. And then the next week after that, I was like national player of the week. And I was like, okay, this is kind of cool. Then, you know, a couple more weeks, I'd do well, we'll do well, whatever. Don't realize, like, you know, oh, that went 60 in the air in the air, 60 yards. Not and I'm like, I know nothing about punting. I'm like, is that is that good? Like, yeah, you're leading the nation. I'm like, oh, okay. And so is this your sophomore year or freshman year? This is my registered freshman year. Freshman yeah, okay, there you go. So the uh then I find out, oh my god, you know, and then I they and they upgraded me to a full scholarship midseason, and then I don't have to run. I don't have to go to play, you know, three hours of film. Uh, you know, like I actually I don't mind yeah, we're this is gonna be all right. This is gonna be good.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

This is actually amazing. That's fantastic, and you still don't know what your average is, you still don't know if 60 yards is good, and you're still trying to, yeah. That's fascinating. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Just kind of learn it as you go. Yeah. Then you start looking at it, and you're like, oh, maybe we're on to something.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

And next thing you know, you're you're thinking you might be able to do this as a as a profession.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yeah, I think once, yeah, I mean, pretty quickly what I learned is that there's you know, punting is a natural motion versus kicking. So, like there's like our coach Kramer, our strength coach, he's like, there's a certain elasticity in muscles that people have, you know. And so that's why like when I went into the league, I was competing against like you uh World Cup soccer goalies and stuff, you know, because whereas kicking is like professional baseball where you have to train your muscles, it's unnatural, like you're not supposed to move that way, so it takes years and years to like build that strength up. So you can like anybody could naturally be the best punter in the NFL, which is crazy. Like give like my brother, I taught him how to punt, he got a scholarship to U-pat and a punt. Really? If you teach if they have the right build and elasticity of muscles and the right form, you can become the world's best punter in a month. That's what I learned for real. I love that. Okay, because it's just a pendulum, yeah. That's it. Yeah, you have enough whip in your legs and the right amount of elasticity, meaning like you're not too flexible or not, yeah. Whatever. Yep. And you got some muscle that can get through it. Yeah, like anyone can do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

I never thought of it that way. Yeah, because it's natural. I'm gonna have to tell Ben LeCop that the next time I talk to him as a buddy, it's been a minute, but be like, you know, Drago told me that I could end up being the best punter in the world if I just give it a month. See what he says.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

It's one of those positions where you have to be you have to have the right natural build. Yeah. So you just have to be lucky.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

So I mean, like, there's guys that can work for a hundred years and be the best. You have to have the right.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

But well, yeah, and in the genetic the physics of it too, right? Like you mentioned, that that that makes a lot of sense. You see that uh in golfers too. Actually, I mean it's it's it's certainly not apples to apples, but you know, tall, lanky guys, long arms, typically you're able to hit it further because you got a little bit of more of a physical advantage in certain in certain ways. So that that that lands. I mean, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Yeah, like the elasticity part is like, you know, people they'll they'll think like, oh, you have to be very flexible. It's like, well, no, it's like a rubber band. Yeah, you don't want to be too tight or too loose, you know. You got the right whip, that has the right the right elasticity, you know. Yeah, that's genetic, really. It really is the core of it. And so I wasn't very flexible, which is probably good, but I'm tall and I had the levers, so if you can work on the right type of flexibility, which you know, our strength coach was amazing, so it was very like fast twitch. It wasn't just sit there and stretch all day, yeah. It was like stretch the right way so you keep your you know elasticity needs to be. So that's cool. That stuff was actually really interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

And then a lot of professional athletes, that's what they work on now. They, you know, like Tom Brady, all he does is bandwidth. Yeah, you know, yeah, he's not sitting there doing squats, he's working bands.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Huh. Very cool. So now you're officially you're you're officially on a path at NDSU towards which was a strong deviation from what you anticipated it to be when you showed up, right? Turns out to be, from what I gather, a positive experience, right? As you kind of talked about. But what what did you learn through that over the first couple of years when you're, you know, you think of it similar to like a job, and it's like, you know, other duties as assigned, right? You show up and it's like, this is what you're hired to do, this is what you're recruited to do as a receiver from Chicago. And next thing you know, you're red shirt freshman, you're you're you're the starting punter. A lot of things happen in between, but it wasn't exactly what you signed up for. What did you learn through that? About you, about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Well, number one, I think my whole life has been around the the theory of jumping out of an airplane and building the parachute on the way down, you know? And so everything's just kind of and I love that you just kind of go and see what happens. Yeah. I don't know. I think, you know, like I talked about before, being isolated in the environment I I grew up in made me have this urge to just go into the unknown and just seek that and just kind of figure out what happens, and it's like an addiction. And like I don't like the idea of going on a path that I know is is you know, laid out, yeah. And I've just learned to just love figuring out that experience through the whole thing. And I've been fortunate enough now that you know, football college and my career, you know, to be successful in it. And it hasn't wasn't always that easy, but man, it's fulfilling, you know. And I just love it. I love that I can and I I love the idea of that continuing to happen too. Yeah, you know, and just see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Well, and clearly a a reasonable appetite for risk, right? That seemed to have been facilitated somewhat during your experience and you know in your childhood, and then also, you know, the the Abercrombie think, I would think, too. You know, being in your bubble and then going into an environment where you're just like shot out of a cannon outside of that bubble and you've got so much stimuli coming at you, right? And then now all of a sudden you're you're off and running with a bit of a different perspective. The the mindset though is what fascinates me. You know, the the visual obviously of jumping out of an airplane trying to build the the parachute would be terrifying for most, right? And specifically me, I'm I'm terrified of heights, but the the practicality of it, albeit you know, something that you'd never actually do, how how do you uh how how do you process the amount of risk associated with that?

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, I think I think what comes to mind is when you're experiencing so many unknowns, you start learning pretty quickly, you're you can persevere a lot of harder things than you think. And you can get yours get yourself out of things more than you think, and time heals and yeah, and things will work out, and and I think I like I I almost like appreciate the dynamic I was in growing up where most people wouldn't.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Because like I said, like you know, I was at this perfect timing growing up where my significant parents and everybody were going through their hardest time and no one knew how to be a parent or what to do. They were there, but like I wasn't the main focus, you know. So you had a I was in a position constantly to have to just go and make decisions and do things, and so when you do that, it's incredibly scary, but then you find out pretty quick they can get through things, yeah. Yeah, when you just do it, and there's to me that and I try to tell my team this too, like there's always get to a point where there's always 20 ways to solve problems, you know? Be resourceful, and there's always 20 ways to solve problems. As soon as you think there's only one way out, that's when you're done. Yeah, or worse, there isn't a way out. Yeah, like you can get through so much, and and so I think like I think any probably psychologist would probably tell me that and most people how you grow up is kind of what you are, you know. And so I think I was just put in a position to create a habit around having like I had to do things uncomfortably a lot, and and that makes it easy to to like take risks, right? I feel like I've I've had to weather more storms than a lot of people, and I think that's what and not not saying like I was in some crazy environment, but compare it, yeah, especially to Fargo, and it's crazy, yeah, you know. And most of my conversations with like my young employees, especially sales raps, yeah, is like you know, sometimes I'm like, I feel bad for you guys. You guys haven't had a weather, really, any storms, you know? And like you're like most of the stuff you're thinking about is not that hard, but you've never had to experience anything that hard. So you're it's limiting you, you know. Like you're scared about things that you shouldn't be scared about, you know. You can get through it and yeah, like that's nothing. Yeah, you know, yeah. So I don't even think I can like take credit for that. I think it's just what I was dealt, right? And so what I would take credit for though, hopefully, is that I have a good perspective on looking back and not blaming something in the past. And I don't certainly be using it as like trying to see it as like the positive of a shitty situation people would see on the outside, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Yeah, you know? Yeah, it certainly I certainly don't gather a victim mentality from your perspective at all, right? It's it's it's more the mindset that I gather from you, you know, hearing you even talk about it is is just like, yeah, the the growth mindset, Dr. Carol Dweck, I talk about it, I think, on every podcast. You know, just the idea that the fixed mindset is is easy because our brains are assholes. Our brains are built to scientifically to take the easiest route because that's you know, your your fight or flight, your rest and digest, right? Like uh your brains prefer to not have to do work. Our brains, that's just the way it is. And so for most people, we have to be very mindful and conscious about keeping a growth first maintaining, not even maintaining, first developing and then championing and then and then maintaining a growth mindset. Meaning, right? Like, oh, it's always somebody else's fault if I didn't if I didn't win. Or I remember growing up in the in the household I grew up here in Fargo, North Fargo, certainly not comparing to to your childhood, but just some of the negative talk that you know, it's like, oh, this person's this is dumb, or that's so stupid, or you know, that coach doesn't know what they're doing. And it's you know, at the time I didn't think of it, I didn't, it was just the way it was, right? And then in hindsight, you look at it and it's like, man, that's just toxic.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Well, I think about I think about it all the time now having kids. It's like I want them to somehow experience what I experienced. Yeah, how the heck do you do that? Right, right. Like, how do you yeah, how do you put kids through hard times, right? Or like make them uncomfortable and all you want to do is just give them everything, right? You know, yeah, but I I've learned to appreciate like adversity is key, you know, because it it it makes you more comfortable in risk and it makes you feel like you can solve problems. And you know, how the heck do you do that, right? So that's that's currently what I'm trying to do. That's like the new challenge, yeah. You know, yeah, is how do I not just give my kids everything and say yes because I didn't have it kind of a thing. But knowing which would be understandable, it's probably not the right thing, like I gotta find a way to make sure that somehow I can put them through some independence and some uncomfortable situations, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

That's tricky. Well, I hear you, brother. I mean, in the same From that perspective, there are there are so many things that you look at retrospectively, or at least I do with my kids, and say, Okay, I know that I don't want to be that dad, right? The the portions that I, you know, you might take from your own personal father or mother or whatever it might be, or or whichever one it might be. It's like, okay, I know I don't want to be that, right? But that those are the things that's that tend to be more innate, you know, that that come out in the times of of high stress or or lack of sleep, right? It's like the things that you don't even think of consciously about how to perhaps parent in the moment. But on the flip side of that, you know, you look back and you say, okay, well, I know I want to try to provide this environment for my kids that is better than the one that I had. All right. So worked your way through through NDSU, obviously, rocket ship punting career, find yourself when was it you found yourself sitting in the National Football League.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Well, I my senior year I started hearing some rumors that I had a chance. And you know, Coach Bowl he was pretty networked in, so he got me into some games like the senior bowl and stuff like that. And then there's some chatter that I had a chance, and then that's where everything kind of changed. Agents were calling, you know, all that kind of stuff. So went went through that process and didn't really, I mean, just go and figure it out. I mean, no idea what to expect. Hired an agent, went to Florida, trained for six months, went to the combine, you know, had a draft party. Mel Kuyper had me going in the fourth round, never got drafted. It's kind of bummer. But but then, you know, in hindsight, learned out I probably picked the wrong agents. I was never formally trained outside of that one Ray Guy camp, right? And so I was just kind of like built on raw fundamentals, and then find out, of course, in my first tryout that because I the ball moves when I drop it, was the reason they didn't take me in the fourth round. Really? Oh my god. But my the other agency I went against was like a kicker and punter specialist agency, and I'm like, well, if I probably would have gone with them, I would have known that. Interesting. So I had no idea it came down. Why does that matter? Uh they said statistically, if the ball moves in the air, there's a higher chance of inconsistency. Yeah, I guess that makes sense, logically. You know, so they're just like a lot of these guys are numbers guys, and you know, yeah, and any talk about appetite for risk.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Yeah, you know, you're if you're talking about drafting a punter in the fourth round, you better get it right.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Yeah, I mean it's crazy. They're showing me on the film, they're like, You see the laces, they move every time. They're like, if the ball moves in the air, statistically makes sense. You're not, I mean, they're like, all we want is a robot. 45 yards, 4.5 second hang time, you'll be a you'll be a pro bowler. And my god, I wish we would have known this six months ago, you know. So interesting. So I went with some agents that I I liked and I thought they'd take care of me, but they didn't, they never had a punter. So I I just like lifted weights and punted and like, you know, watched YouTube videos, you know. They got me like a coach for a week, but you know. So yeah, then went to New England, got to oh okay. Yeah, Tom Brady got to see me naked there. Uh no, it's funny.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Did he say I recognize you from that evercrime catalog?

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Yeah, it was a cool, it was a cool experience. I knew I wasn't gonna make that team. I had to be I had to beat out a uh vet, but you know who was that? It was Steven Got Gotzkowski, yeah. Yeah, Gotzkowski, it was uh oh yeah, he was the kicker, right? Yeah, all good, all good. No worries. Oh, I just I remember I just that came to my head because I just connected with him on Snapchat the other day. Really interesting. But a funny story. The day before I got cut, the Lonnie Paxson, the the long snapper. There's two two captains on the on the Patriots, Tom Brady and Lonnie Paxon, the long snapper at the time, which is crazy. And Lonnie is like this crazy SoCal skateboarder guy, and so he comes by with a limo and calls me and goes, get out here, rook, you know. And so we went to Boston. Larry is those Larry Okee support the troops, charity, karaoke, you know, and everybody's there, Brady, everybody, and they made me act like a Russian the whole night. So I was basically Borat the whole night. Hello everyone, I'm the punter. And so they they make me sing with some sponsor, uh Let's Get Physical by Living Newton John. Is there a video of this? I think it's still on YouTube, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

We might have to add that to the show notes. Yeah. Just you know, in case anyone's curious.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

So then that night we all stay at uh Matt Castle's house. Sure. So it's like Wes Welker, and I woke up in the morning and it was like Wes Welker asleeping in a beanbag chair, and I'm looking around, I'm like, holy crap, this is real life. Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah. I walk downstairs and you know, Castle's cooking eggs, a bunch of linemen watching TV, and I'm just I felt like I was in college, you know. Yeah. And I get a call from Scott Pioli, the GM. He's like, uh, you know, it's Saturday. He's like, can you come in today? You know? And I'm like, and I prefer not to. Do you have to have a bloody marry in there by chance? I told the guys like Scott Pioli just called me, wants to come in. They're all like, Hey, nice to know you, buddy. Yeah, they know that's not a good dance. Yeah, I get in and I get I sat down with Bill Check and he was like, you know, I really like you. You think you're gonna be something? This was a two days after I broke one of the lights in the stadium. Oh, really? Kind of cool. So so then I get to my locker, it's a it's a garbage bag, and I'm back in Fargo in like three hours. Yeah, yeah. Humbling. So then I go over and I get a call from the Bears, and my dad's a diehard, and we go, we drive to the Alice Hall, and we get rear-ended on the way there. Jesus. Which is crazy. And he's all jacked up and mad, and it's your lucky day. Get out of here. We gotta get to a you know, yeah, yeah. And we go there and I do my tryout, and Babbage is there, so he knows me. And this is like fresh off of Bobby's wedding where that I was at. So I'm in there talking to the special team coach, going over film, and Bob comes in with Lovey Smith, and this I'm like, oh, that's kind of cool. And then we're about to leave, and we can't find my old man for like 20 minutes. Like the security's looking for him. We're like, oh boy, what's going on here? And so we get in the car. He's checking the place out. And he wears his like, he's got this jacket, and it's not even cold. I'm like, why are you wearing that? He's like, Well, I had to take some souvenirs, you know. What did he try to lift? Oh, he's got it. He's just I mean, dumb stuff. Yeah, pens, yeah, letter head. That's outstanding. Like, you know, did he get away with it? Stuff no one would care about. Yeah, yeah. He does, you know. But yeah. Did he get away with it? Oh, we were already on the road. Oh, that's fantastic. Never got that job, got called last game of the season by the Cleveland Browns, flew out, did a tryout, got on the team. The punter was game time decision, he had like a knee problem. So I get there on Christmas Day in Cleveland, and I go and there's no place open except Denny's next to my hotel. So I had moons over my hammy on Christmas Day, so it's kind of fun. So and then the guy ended up playing, so I didn't have to do anything. So I got paid for a week, got cut. Two days later, fly me out to Indianapolis and do a tryout there, and that's the best punt of my life. So Polian, oh yeah, the GM came out to see me punt. I was standing on my goal line, the wind was behind me. I punted a ball in the air to the other goal line in front of him. 100 yards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

Well, from the snapper was on the 15. Oh, sure. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

I mean, I hit it. I I don't know what happened. I kicked it, I had like adrenaline, I kicked it so hard, I kicked my my leg hit myself in the helmet, you know, and the thing just took off, and I was like, holy crap. The next punt one, like 30 yards. Okay, so your average is now, yeah. I was like kind of like uh known as like a Barry Bonds of punting. Okay. They're either gonna be like over the fence or a strikeout, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

That's a good call. That's a good call. Do you think he tells his buddies on their podcast to say, hey, you know what? I was kind of known as a Mike Dragosevich of baseball.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yeah. Anyway, so then he I made the team and I was the punter. Like, so that was like January you know, 3rd or something, you know. And so that was exciting because I I got in there and then Vinitario was still there. And but what people don't know is uh they put me up with this extended stay hotel in Carmel, Indiana, like a Ecano Lodge on the interstate, okay, like where I my feet off the bed were in the stove, you know. And every day I didn't have a car, I had no money because you don't make any money in the offseason at the NFL, you make it all in 17 weeks. So I made$219 a week. That's all I got. No, no car and a computer and a cell phone. That was all I had. And so every day, Adam Venteri picked me up about 8 a.m. in his Maserati. We go to He was driving a Maserati, many different cars, but that was his main one.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

What was he making back in the day? Yeah. Buco. Really? Oh, yeah. I suppose. I mean, he had a heck of a run. And he was like he was the guy, right? Yeah, that's true. He'd already kicked the winning field goal of the first Super Bowl. He's already Hall of Famer. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose. That's that was later in his career. Okay, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

No, that's yeah, yeah. So he what's funny is he picked me up and he just he didn't care anymore. So he just wanted to play pranks and stuff. So like every day it was like, what can we do to screw it somebody? And I loved it. But I was his holder, so I had to hold from every day. Yeah. And so for what, seven months? I mean, that was my life. Like, I didn't go out and have money to go out and have anything to do at all. Except one time we went out in Indianapolis and Paint Manny showed up and just paid for everything and left. Oh, like he was there for a total of three minutes. I just picked up the tab for all his boys. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

That's the way it should be. That's leadership right there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

So so I get through all that, and then of course, they bring in what I didn't realize is that summer they ended NFL Europe, which no one knows. So what that what that meant was eight less roster spots on a practice squad. So wow. Okay. Meaning they are not, they they immediately the NFL was looking for like kickers or punters that can kick. Oh, sure. That makes sense. Because if the kicker goes down, then the punter can go down. It's one less roster spot. So then they're going, okay, Pat McAfee is on the board. They bring him in. He's a great kicker, great punter. So I'm like, oh, I gotta compete against him. So I competed against them. I they chart every punt, whatever. I won on paper. I won the job on paper. And then Benateri wanted me to because he's like, I'm not training another holder. Like, this is my guy, you know. So they came to me and they're like, Look, if NFL Europe didn't happen, you would be our punter. It's 100%. Because we wouldn't even have gone after this other guy. Yeah. You know? So sorry, kid, kind of a thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

And I was like, ah, that's kind of a bummer. Seven seven months of 212 bucks a week. Is that what you said? Kind of like just whatever.

No Title

No Title

SPEAKER_01 57:01

But yeah. But through that process, business-wise, though, is when I I built my first website. Oh, cool. Okay, cool. Because I was bored. Yeah. And I built my first website and then I called some random website company in Fargo and I said, you know, would you be willing to like have calls with me and train me on websites? Like, I don't have anything to pay you, but I can help you introduce you to some people in Fargo and help your business grow or something. Yeah. You know? So I found this 701 websites or whatever. Yep. It's Tony. And he's like, yeah, no problem. So we'd have calls and like just on the phone. And he'd be like coaching me up on how to build a website. And so I started this blog. It's called Who Pulled the Fire Alarm. Okay. And at the time, blogs were big. There wasn't really social media yet. Sure. It wasn't really taking off as much. So blogs were big. So I we all used to follow like, you know, all the me, like memes were just kicking off, you know. There was the chive, was like kind of things. That was kind of like the social networks back then. So I wanted to create something similar, something funny. And the hoople, the fire alarm is all about pranks and just stuff like that. So my idea was to share stuff I find online because I literally have like 12 hours a day. And so that was my thing to kill time. And then I I learned at the time that there was a site called I Can Hash Cheese. It was my I was kind of yeah. Because uh even this this perfect website stuff, yeah, I'll tell you like that's the transition. Yeah, you know, good. Well, we're back on. So let's yeah, so we're talking about the website. Yeah, so what I'm sitting in this extended stay suite, you know.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Oh, and this do whatever if if you want to move around a little bit or get more comfortable with this thing, help yourself.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Yeah, so I learned how to build a website, started off as fun, kill time, do a blog, but then I stumbled upon this I can't have cheeseburger, which was just a a website of cat memes. That's it. Okay, okay, so I was just intrigued, and so I looked up like who owned it and all this kind of stuff, and then I found out it was$95,000 to place a banner per ad per month on their website. I was like, holy crap, you know, maybe this isn't just a kill time kind of thing, yeah, you know, and at the time too, I knew about Barstool. That's back when that was still in paper form and they just came out with their blog, yeah, you know, and I actually reached out to them at one point, which is kind of crazy. To to directly to Dave or to I didn't know who who Dave was, sure, but I I reached out to see if I can contribute because I was like, you know, basically doing the same thing, like posting. It was kind of like a blog. I was writing things, but I was posting funny videos, and then I was like commenting on stuff and all these kind of kind of things. So then that you know, this was like WordPress and and that, and and so I got to learn how to like build the site, and then I learned how to put like an ad platform on just to get ready to see if I can sell an ad on it on it and all that, and you know, this is where I think a little bit of the transition into thinking about what kind of business or I could start, you know, if I sure had to, and because I just loved it and I loved like just kind of the nerding out, I love the whole website building thing, like you can just almost like writing on a piece of paper, but you can make stuff come to life. And it was not that hard because WordPress was like represented building a website without having an audit code, sure, like the only thing out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Yeah, I used WordPress once. Mike Hagan and I built a fantasy baseball blog, and now that I think about it, I was that was WordPress. I mean it's basically idiot proof in in a certain way, like in whatever version we had, you know, it's just like click here, do here, it was about as bare bones. That's funny, I haven't thought about that in a while. Yeah, anyway, sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

So this so this became like you know, that composition notebook I had my whole life, yeah, coming up with ideas. I be this was my new notebook, you know. And so then one of the days we went out with the team. Everybody in Indianapolis had this VIP card that I thought was so cool because all I knew was like these discount books that kids sold. Oh, like you know, pizza joints and kind of dumb. This this VIP card was cool, it's 20 bucks, but you got like into the comedy shows, and first beer was free, and like it was like a cool person's VIP card, and so I was like, that's pretty sweet. And so when I was cut from the Colts, I went back to Fargo because that was essentially my home. Yeah, and I was like, you know, that would be a good idea, I think. I think this town would find that pretty sweet. That would be fun to try, you know. So I I put together a little business plan in my head and said, you know, all I all I really need to do is put together this VIP card, and then I could build a website too that talked about all the things to do in the area because there's really nothing like that for Fargo. And I had a chip on my shoulder because I'm like, I grew up in an area that was very like I grew up around, you know, things we did were concerts and entertainment and stuff like that. I didn't go to the lakes, I didn't hunt or fish or whatever. We went and did things around entertainment. So I'm like, well, you know, maybe I have a cool perspective on this. So so I started this fmspolly.com was my new kind of thing, my new who pulled the fire alarm essentially. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, this town has something special, but I don't think the people that live here realize there's a comedy club and a motel over here, and there's things to do, you know. And this is like the emergence of social media and the web, and like people were starting to use it. This was right when like apps were just starting to be a thing. Yeah, you know. Yeah. So what year are we in right now? I was like 2009, probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

And which by the way, Marriad, I was the first paying customer of Marriad Mobile, which is now Bushel. Oh, cool. For FM Spotlight mobile app. And I was one of the first iPhone apps in Fargo, by the way. Really? Which is kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

So that's wild to think about. What does that get you today? A whole lot of nothing. 350 gets you a cup of Starbucks coffee. Yeah. No, I I kid. That's just I think back to those times when I mean, you know, they're just always with us now, our phones and apps and everything. I mean, everything. It's just part of your one's day. But yeah, recalling when that was just starting, you know, people waiting in line for iPhones. Remember that back in the day? It's just like you couldn't get one, but but if you found out a store, they were they were launching a new one, you'd go see people waiting in line for hours to get the the new iPhone or an iPhone.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

It's crazy. When I did that FM Spotlight app, there was maybe only five percent of Fargo had an iPhone. Yeah. So it was just when people were getting into it, and that's why no one knew how to build iPhone apps because of them. And I'm like, I want to get ahead of this. But so I I built this website, FM Spotlight, it had an event calendar. I'd call the places, you know, because you couldn't find it anywhere. So I would just have this big resource and I turned it into a little social network. People could comment. It was very band-driven back then, like bands were a big deal. Sure. So with that, I started this VIP card, and I bought this, like, you know, all the money I had, this like DMV style card printing machine. And like everybody's like, wow, you could do fake IDs on that, right? Sell them to all the college kids. So I I got a I started it up and I figured it out, and like learning printers was insane. But so what I did is I just, well, I needed to go find, you know, I don't know, 40, 50 businesses that would honor an exclusive deal. If I sold these cards for 20 bucks a piece, here's what the value you'd get. So you'd get your first beer free at Fort Knox, you'd get a free admission at Courtney's Comedy Club, you'd get whatever, right? So I just, you know, went and started knocking on doors, you know. I got to my 50, did some fly. Buyers got the cards going, just went around and started literally selling cards. I actually I actually stood on 45th and I-94 on the corner, like people looking to like get a dollar from you, selling it that way. No doubt. Yeah. Wow. Because I'm like, oh, you know, where can I capture a lot of people at once?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

And sure enough, the humility it takes to do that is pretty impressive, wouldn't you say?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

Well, I don't, you know, when you're like, what's weird about it is I that was my thought process. I was like, man, I'm sick of like driving around to try to like get a lot of people. I'm like, how many people stop at this light? Like I could just stand here. All of them. Yeah, everyone in front of stops with that light once a day.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Like all day touch like, you know, 500 people. Yeah. I'm gonna do this, you know? And maybe it'll be weird enough, they'll do it, you know? Yeah. Didn't really work, but uh yeah, but don't let that, I mean, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. But that's that's gonna end up being probably what you what you're gonna want to know about me is that like I've learned how to just like not like just think overly practical, right? Yeah, like almost to a fault. Like people would overthink standing on a corner of a street to do something like that. Yeah. To me, I was just like, well, that would be where a lot of people are, yeah. And they'd probably find this interesting and maybe just buy it, you know? Yeah, and I didn't even like overthink it. It was just more of a just let's go do it. Well, and and like it ain't gonna hurt anything, yeah, right? It may you're not gonna lose people uh by doing it, right? Or interest. And like I was sick of doing this other thing, so I'm like, well, let's try that for a day and then let's do this, you know. And and and some people will just think, like, oh my god, that's like crazy, or why were you doing that? Like, I wasn't thinking about that. I was just thinking, like, in the next hour, I can probably talk to 50 people if I did this. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

So, how do you as someone as someone with those types of proclivities and and the willingness and and acumen and ability to to think outside the box and do things in that way? How how can you tell the difference between like like an idea that's really good or the the best idea? You know what I mean? Like, what's the difference between a good idea and the right idea?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

I think I got into this position and I listened to this podcast the other day. I don't know what it was, but it was with a CIA guy, and they said, and he said, I really thought this was cool. He said the the number one thing we do to train people or that become new CIA agents is to teach them out of perfectionism, and they want they don't want people to think, they want them to act, yeah, you know, and figure it out. And the the like the last thing we want people to do is sit and think, you know, just go. Yeah, and I think I stumbled upon that and created a habit around it, like with zero intention, right? Yeah, you just you know, you go and you do and see what comes out of it, and and I struggle with it now though, like as the business grows, sure, like you're in a lot of positions not to do that, like you start getting to be the opposite, like, oh now I know too much, and you start overthinking things. Why do you why do you think that is? Just because like I think it's you know, like let's break it down to like kids and adults, right? Yeah, when you're a kid, you don't know any better, you just do, right? When you're an adult, you know you there's fear, you can see the chest moves, you're like, you know, overcalculating, and then you just like before you know it, time has gone too far and you never pulled the trigger, you know. Yeah, so I think I like try to coach myself back into that constantly. Yeah, it's like okay, why am I overthinking all this right now? Like what I've done is just do, is just do. And I think that's like honestly in business the key to success. Like just do, and like the biggest reason I think I've had setbacks is when I like try to make it perfect, you know? And and then usually what happens is it just doesn't happen, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

Well, or I mean you you win or learn, right? So it's like, all right, well, we hey, we can we tried that. You know, it's like again, didn't hurt anything, might not have gotten the return on the investment that we had thought we were maybe gonna get, but also no one had ever done that before. So we didn't have any way of knowing what the return on the investment is. The reality is that you're you're thinking about things from a from a different perspective. We talk a lot about on on our sales team, like, you know, your gut matters, right? Like we can teach you a sales process, we can tell you all the words to say, we can, you know, we can we can give you all the the data at your fingertips to determine where you should make your next call from a you know Salesforce or CRM perspective, but you gotta use your gut more than we do, right? And what I'm hearing you say is that you've sort of landed on that early that you know your instincts in general were pretty darn good.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:11

Well, and and like you know, I'm in sales now too, and I try I try to catch myself and tell others like you know, like just just act, you know, like just go. Yeah, like I I do a thing once in a while. I got this from Grant Cardone, and you know, a lot of people think good or bad or whatever from them, but we we took his sales training, but he has this thing called massive action days, and I still do these, and it's a really good reminder to what like my core belief is is like you can do so much in a day, or let maybe let's put it this way you do so little in a day than you really realize, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

Yeah, like yeah, when you get that notification on Sunday from Apple that says this is the amount of time you've spent on your phone for the week, and that number is always higher than you want it to be, but you don't think about it in the time, you know, or in the moment, I should say. Sorry to interrupt, but no. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

And like I guess I don't know, I think I'm grateful that I'm conscious of this. Yeah, because like you can see it in others, you know, you can see people like not like being busy, but never really getting anything done, you know? And I think that's the the death trap of anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:34

There's people that there's people that really like making lists, and then there's people that like checking things off of their list. A lot of people that enjoy making lists, that's where it ends. They don't ever check anything off the list, right? It's just like, okay, well, here are all the things I need to do, passive action, right? I should do that. Alyssa and I just talked about that the other day. But it's like next thing you know, you got 20 things on a list, and then you're stressed out. Well, I can empathize with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:01

Literally today, we had this conversation with my my sales guys, and I I I actually tried a I printed this out before, and I'm like, the I I truly believe like the difference between most success is hunting is like knowing when to hunt and know when to farm. Sure, you know, and so I try to like make sure people are conscious of that. Like, are you hunting or are you farming? You know, and what does that mean? And like, well, if you're hunting, like let's say you're trying to sell something. Like, if you're hunting, you're going to figure out how to sell something. You're not going to, you know, think through all the steps and things in your way and all these things and automated and whatever. Build the to-do list, do the research, prospect, do this, do that, the other thing, right? You're gonna go, what can I sell? How can I make the best of my time and how do I eat today? You know? And that's kind of like a good reminder, not even in sales, but it's just like, let's say I'm in my like daily process and I fall into this trap all the time, because in my world, like most people, I mean, there's not enough hours in the day. You just got to kind of pick your battles, and so and it's really tricky when you're on the top, and I have I have no boss, right? So I can do anything I want, I have to have a lot of discipline, you know, absolutely and justify any task.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:25

Yeah, yeah, right. And and have nobody to report to, well, which is great, but also a challenge, right? No physical person to report to. But every at the end of every day you're reporting to yourself when you put your head on the pillow at night, you know, and that's the stuff that that's fascinating. Anyway, yeah, no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:42

Yeah, so I was just trying to that's my that's what's been getting harder, is that the more you learn, the more I, you know, go through phases where I bring in consultants like the book Traction. Oh yeah. Start doing these things, which I think are great, yeah, but then also start making you feel like a farmer. You see what I'm saying? I do. Like, oh, don't do that. Spend two months writing down plans and these kind of things, right? And so now you start, and that's where I'm at in business, is where I'm you know going from the grind to try to, you know, start up to scale up kind of the stuff, right? And so I'm constantly in this battle in my brain of like how much should I farm and how much should I hunt, you know? And then it was like, okay, should I hunt, should I farm? I probably need to farm. Now it's more complicated. I should probably plan longer, but then don't let that get away. I still need to be a hunter. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:43

Well, you're flexing different muscles, right? As a visionary who's constantly pushing a rock up a hill, I'm just like sisophists, you know, it's like, but what happens when you get to the top of the hill? So while I can't empathize necessarily with building a business and and and growing it and then trying to still massage and flex the muscles of being the visionary that's looking out to like what's the next thing work, but also try to make sure that these people are taking care of my baby, nobody's calling my baby ugly. How am I am I close to to summing it up a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh when you're when you're thinking about it, then from a leadership perspective, how do you strategically to the best of your ability engage the appropriate people to ensure the success of the various parts of the organization so you can you know flex those muscles that you prefer to flex?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Well, where I where I'm at now is I feel like in building a culture, it feels almost like I've started over and I'm back where I was, where I'm leading with common sense. Yeah. And I stumbled pretty hard, you know, like trying to follow blueprints and stuff, you know? And I have a great team right now, and what I contribute that to is I just broke the rule book, I think, and I just said I'm done with traction and all these things, and it's just not me, it's not what I'm trying to do, and I'm not trying to be egotistical or create whatever new thing. But the team I've built right now is all from being up front when I hire them. And I don't do what's in the playbook. I'll I'll meet with people and I'll tell them the truth and I'll tell them exactly what's gonna happen, and I'll and I'll shoot people very straight, almost like shockingly, you know, and just say, This is what's gonna happen. This we can get into, this is the gonna be the challenges. Here's where we're at. We're not we're too big to be small or too small to be big. I'm not gonna be around all the time, but I'm gonna give you everything you need. Yep. We're not, you know, going to be playing ping pong every day. We're we're we're dedicated between the whistles, but you're not gonna work over 40s ever. You're gonna get what you want if you earn it, you know. Anything you need, I'll take care of you, kind of thing. And just never put me in a position to think you're you're uh beating the system. I'm an old punter. I know how it goes. I'll leave you alone and I'll be there for you. I'll get I got your back, but I'm not uh it's too complicated of a business and we have too much to do. I can't, I can't, I don't have the time, I can't be one of these like you know, people you see online that all they do is culture stuff. Like, you know, I gotta work and I'm working for you, you know? And so you work and we'll all figure it out. And it's it's going really great, you know, and I've just kind of stripped all the you know book reading crap out. Yeah, and and so we just have like this super casual environment, and there isn't performance reviews, there's nothing. I mean, we just I'm like, look, just talk to each other all the time. Like, we, you know, the only thing I'll ever get mad about is if you don't shoot me a ping and check in with me, or vice versa. Like, let's just stay in touch and let's talk and let's just, you know, build this thing together. Yeah. And and I got out of all my years so far, got the coolest, best team and environment. It's just great, you know? And I've seen it all, of course, you know. But the worst was when I tried to conform, yeah. When I try to conform to what everybody says works, yeah. It just, I mean, it's just I've never seen that work. And so, but it's a battle in my head, you know, because like I know I'm not out to run a 500-person organization. Sure. I know I'm probably good for where I'm at. And this is the first year, too. I brought on a business partner. I never had a business partner. And but I knew I'm like, I need to bring, he's a small piece, but he was our vert my virtual CFO for many years. And I said, you know, I'm gonna always be me, but I know I'm not probably prepared for double the size. Sure, you know, sure. It's just gonna be over my pay grade, you know. Never know, but I hear what it's saying. Yeah, maybe it does, but I need to have a hedge to bet a little. Yeah, that's right. But I'm like, I do know I need somebody that has more book smart. I mean, yeah, uh, especially when it comes to accounting and finance and operations and compensation and somebody I can trust.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:49

Would that have changed had you gotten into Northwestern and with a little bit of a higher ACT score, do you suppose?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:53

I would have figured out not to go to those classes even.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

There we go. Yeah, that's that's that's the massive action growth mindset. Yep. I'm gonna skip class here too.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

No, I'm sorry to interrupt, but yeah, no, you're right. You know what's a really thing I've been thinking about lately, you might find interesting, is like I don't I think a lot of people maybe are in the position I was in where I did a ton of this book reading. I did uh you know, and I think it was all about I think I'm past the ego that's in involved in like running a business where it almost feels like you get captured in this goal to try to prove things to people, you know, and like and you get you start as you get more success, you start attracting advice constantly and like all this stuff, you know. And so I went down that path for many years of like, well, I have to run and operate a business the way that everyone expects because that's what they think works, you know, and financially this, that, and the other thing, you know, and I used to have so much anxiety around that as far as like you know, should I change how I do things? Like that was like, should I, you know, am I running good enough meetings or am I doing, you know, like am I exposed if people find out I don't have like a really perfect everything, right? Yeah, and I think after just how hard COVID was and just like grinding through all that, I just like was like, I don't care anymore. I'm just gonna run this how I want to run it. And if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Yeah, you know, and I don't really give a shit anymore. I don't care what people think. And that's you know, there's some freedom in that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:54

Yeah, it really is. I think it hits people at different times. I I I rem I mean I would say it was probably my mid-30s to late 30s, where I I'm I don't need to be concerned what other people think about me because I don't really care that much about what other people think. Nobody cares that much about you. Everyone's got their own stuff going on. And I don't need to concern myself what other people think. I mean, that's exhausting. We talk about time and energy. Like I don't have the energy to worry about what other people are thinking about me.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:27

Good plug, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:29

Thank you. Thank you. Every once in a while we get it right. Every once in a while we get it right. But but but no joke. I mean, that's what you've just described and what have have continued to describe our entire conversation is the juxtaposition of time and energy and how you know the things that you're putting your time into, you realized you're like, you know, we don't we don't need to put any more time into this traction book because we're not gonna use it. And if we're not gonna go all in on it, then it's a waste of time and it's a waste of energy because it's not because it feels like there's friction there, right? And not to not to rip on traction specifically, because I know a lot of organizations that have championed it and had a ton of success with it, but not for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

No, I mean I uh I love the idea of it, yeah, you know, but you said it, you know. I'm like, I'm doing this traction thing more for other people than for what I think needs to happen. And I've built this the way that based on passion and and my gut, and that's what keeps me passionate. So you start finding out pretty quick, you start going on these paths because you think the idea is to run a business like because that's what everybody's looking at, and then you lose passion, you know, and because it's not really you, right? And so but I'm hoping, and then now it's like, and this is good by having kids and stuff, you know, but like I wanna I don't think as technical, I want to just like run a good ethical, good business, have fun, enjoy what we do, surround myself with people that like share that a little bit at least, totally and like you know, have fun, be casual, and not have to deal with all this shit, yeah. Honestly, yeah because it and and you don't have to, you know, and I and I think you can take things from that, and there's a lot of really good things you have to do, but I just feel like a lot of people, including myself, go too far into that because the wrong reasons, you know? Yeah, and that's kind of what happened with us, you know. Like I'm like, all right, we're all in on this, and then you know, you just crutch, kill your culture, kill it, like then you take a step back. And if you don't have a runway, which a lot of companies like myself don't, you know, we can't afford six months of a bad idea, yeah, you know, yeah. Um yeah, or a bad hire. Yeah, so it's it's there's no bashing traction at all. Yeah, it's just more like you know, I think there's certain people in positions like me where probably small, smaller businesses under 20 employees that you know to get past no man's land, yeah, which I think is a book about 25 employee companies, yeah. This is like the hardest company to run. Yeah, you just gotta make decisions and go. And you know, once you get to 50 employees, then traction's easy. You got managers for divisions, you can see things through. You can you can actually implement things, you know. Not everyone in the company's wearing 13 hats. Yeah, yeah. So that's like kind of the the crash course that was a reminder to me is like, I'm not there yet. Stay around, stay hunt, stay as a hunter. Yeah, make moves, use your gut still, get the business where it needs to be, get a safety net, get over the hump, hire people that actually could be in management positions. Yeah, so that the key role for management then is to sustain implementation. Yeah. Because that's the hardest part of the my size business. Yeah, ideas usually don't work because you don't have somebody to hold and sustain the accountability to make it actually last. Bingo. So you start with a bunch of stuff and it gets 60% done and goes nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:40

Do you use any sort of personality tools or or anything like that to help determine, you know, whose proclivities are more towards, you know, your your visionary thinking, your you know, inst implementers, your you know what uh they all have their own different, you know, words associated with them. But you have you used any tools like that? I used to, and I bailed on all of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

Nice. Which one did you did you use previously?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:03

Uh well we had so when when we did traction, the firm that was our implementer also did like disc profiles. And we had another HR firm that did other ones. And I didn't believe any of this shit, to be honest with you. And and and to be completely honest with you, and this is one of the things that's crazy, and this is a thing that you learn on running a casual culture is how much people are on medication. Oh, interesting. And that like I've had so many employees be open and honest about that and say, you know, hey, I took that test when I wasn't Adderall. Interesting. I mean, like you so yeah, that like blew me away, honestly. Because a lot of especially we have a lot of younger employees, sure. Like the society these days, I don't think there's anybody in their 20s now that isn't on some sort of medication, which to me just voids those things at this point. You know, that makes sense. Yeah. And so then I yeah, you know, to me, I'm just like, I'm not gonna trust, I'm not I I have to trust my gut now, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:10

I mean, right the the people that we've hired that we've had a lot of really good success with are your you know, football players, athletes, whatever, that they're used to being coached. They're used to being told what to do in a positive way. They're used to be told what not to do and how to do it better with a culture of improvements, small improvements, right? Those are you can take that philosophy and you could sprinkle it all over every job everywhere, and you're gonna have success if you're willing to listen to feedback, if you're willing to be coached, and if you're trying to just make small increments and getting better a little bit every single day, good things are gonna happen. What what's what's shifted? Like what's changed where the young folks are coming now into the workforce with you know less, let's just say life experience, more medication, the you know, the the jokes that you hear about the coddling, all that kind of stuff. Any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:58

Well, I think I think everything's different, and you know, let's go back to Chicago in the cultures, right? Yeah, Fargo is way different than everybody else. So let's just talk about Fargo. And I talk to my st my team all the time about this kind of stuff. And I've bait I basically shifted a few years back and I said F books and stuff. And so I'm purely operating right now, raw, and it's either gonna work or not work, but it's what I believe, and it's that's all I'm doing at this point. Yeah, and so what I'm what I think is here's what I do with my team when I hire them. I sit them down and I say, Look, I'm gonna be real with you. Like, I don't have a playbook, I'm re and I'm refusing to do what you think is normal because I don't believe in it. But I'll tell you right now, here's the plan. I don't have perform performance reviews. I'm not I there's very little structure here, but I'm gonna give you some things that are on my brain and ways to look at things that I wanted you to look at the same way. And I hope that if you look at this way, it's gonna make you a better person. And so I'll say, like, if you're in any career at all, and this is what I care about, is you need to understand what I value because I I represent your future essentially professionally for now. So you need to be extremely curious about what I value, okay? And you need to know exactly what I value, and so please make sure that's a priority, okay? So if you know what I value, and now you make that a priority to be impressive around what I value, then you put you create something called leverage. And now you put me in a great position to have to reward you and have to take initiative to keep you. Okay. Where people screw up, especially young people, is they don't they try to they have expectations around what they value, and then their expectations don't align, and then they're terrible negotiators. Okay. So I'm like, a good example is you come in my office and you look for a raise because you've been here a year. Yeah. So, well, do I value you being a year? Yeah, I kind of do, but did you get worse? I don't know. You know, maybe if I gave you a raise, you're getting, you know, I'm Peter princel princeling you, or you're getting, you know, complacent or comfortable, right? But what if you know, or you come in to me and you say, I need a raise because you know, I I worked like 60 hours last week, but you know, realize I don't want you working, I want you smarter, not working harder. I don't think that's healthy, right? Right, right. So you need to understand these things. Yeah. And and I'm like, you just be a good negotiator. And then I'm like, you know, reputation. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, like, well, when you want, you know, you want something personally or you want somebody like in your in your personal life, like on your Facebook and stuff, you build a reputation, you want people to see you in a certain light, right? And I know this because I know their Facebook's and stuff, and you can tell. Yeah, and I'm like, whatever, why don't you do that in your professional career? Like, you should build a reputation with me. Absolutely. So if I don't hear from you, you're not showing me that you're doing things that I value or that you care about what I care about, and you're not building that reputation with me. That's only hurting you, hurting you. So I'm trying to give you the recipe here of like this is how we should operate. We don't need like a check-in, and I have to sit here uncomfortably and give you a five out of seven on your like you know, attitude and this kind of stuff, right? You know, no, this is the rule. Like, you know, you need to it like you might not realize that I want this is sales reps are really important. Like, I don't want you just to sell sometimes, like that's not all that sales is, right? You know, because if you just sell, but you're a terrible, you know, team member, you know, that's opportunity cost, you know. Maybe, maybe if you value and you come to me, Mike, I sold a million bucks. Why am I, you know, my salary needs to be whatever? Well, you could have sold, you know, or enabled our team to sell way more, and I would have done a lot more if you weren't so, you know, stingy about accounts or you know, whatever. Right. So I'm like, you guys, this is the key, you know, and so that's our rule going forward. That's how we need to operate. And if I don't hear from you, like, and plus the last thing I tell them is like, if I wouldn't be doing my job if I wasn't trying to help you guys experience what I experienced. So I want you to be uncomfortable. I want you to, when you're intimidated and you don't want to reach out to me, or you give me that excuse because you thought I was busy and I didn't want to no, well, you need no, this is stuff you need to understand. This is professionalism, right? You need to like speak up, take initiative, share these things, build a reputation, do it, you know, and so that's what I'm hoping, you know. And I think I have a lot of guys on my team that I think have really impacted with this. Yeah, some, you know, sure, they're not for everybody, not ready for it or whatever. Yeah, but I believe in that, and that and I think it's logical. I don't know, or whatever, but it's right now it seems to be working, you know? And and then, you know, at the end of the day, like, let's not let anybody breathe down anybody's necks, you know, have some fun, laugh a little. Yeah, you know, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:06

And yeah, well, what you're saying out loud, it's like, yeah, it makes sense when you say it out loud. And it's the actual living by it, right? It's the actual honoring it, especially in the most uh stressful times for you individually, right? As you're receiving various stimuli throughout your day, personally and professionally. I would imagine there are times when you gotta you gotta look at it and be like, all right, well, am I honoring what I am preaching, right? Am I living what I am telling my team that we want to be? How how often do you reflect on kind of how you're doing in that regard? Every day. Yeah. Do you have a do you have a formal process? No, no. I don't think there's anything formal, like a journal or uh anything like that.

unknown 1:36:51

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:54

No. I think what we've what I've run into just because I'll again everything I'm talking about probably just applies to a very specific type of business. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know, but it's fascinating to me. The the scenario, I mean, like again, everything I'm doing is like situation, sure, right? Well, it has to be you're moving quick. There's so much things to do, there's not enough people, not enough time. So all I can do is say is just be real with everybody at all times, and then just be like, all right, here's the deal. My day, my calendar every day, I have no idea what's going to happen. Everybody cool with that? All right. So here's what we're gonna do. Cool, cool, right? Good, go okay, great. Instead of open um, you know, office hours like a professor, we're gonna how about this? Every Friday at three from three to five, we're gonna do a team building exercise, MBR opportunity. You know, we're gonna we're gonna schedule stuff, and that's gonna be our time to like team up and talk and do things, right? And so, and that's like the flavor of the year. And so, like, that's the challenge, that's how we're gonna solve it. And so, and in my business, we're like an accounting firm, so like in four months of the year is absolutely nuts. So then you go March, it's like, all right, guys, wait till March, we'll start, you know, building in some different cadences around here, you know. But at the you know, at the end of the day, we all you know kind of live by a core principle, you know, like everybody, I'm trying to get people out of the weeds as much as possible. Like, look at things conceptually. Those are all my conversations with them, you know. Like, I try to tell them like it's not it's like look at things bigger. And I think that's something I've I've learned, I've been forced to learn, you know, is and when you're when you're like in our business, it's you it's easy to get in the weeds all the time. So I try to force people out of it. Yeah, so it's kind of just more like, well, let's talk, let's go. Like, what are we trying to do here? Like, what's what's happening? And it's it's almost like I don't think like if if we had a uh a thousand people listening to this, I think half people would be like, what the fuck is that? What is going on? You know, yeah, it probably doesn't make sense to half the people, but it just makes sense, right? It it makes sense and it's working, and that's the rule I'm living.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:34

Yeah, yeah, you know. Well, and given your given your experience and just given the your journey here, you're not afraid of a pivot to something. Uh the the word the word I'll use is just more structured, right? If if the situation calls for that. Like I'm not hearing you're opposed to it, but in this moment, at this time, with where you're at, if it ain't broke, why fix it? Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:57

Like why change? Four years ago, let's just say, when I was I would have never talked like this. I would I would be so embarrassed to admit not having really good structure and all this kind of stuff, right? Because that was like the pressure I felt. Sure, you know, interesting. Yeah. Oh, there's this audience, and thanks for sharing as a business. What you don't have like goals and journals and a plan, and you guys aren't doing like performance reviews, and you're not doing like three, you know, you're not hiring slow and firing fast, you know, like doing all these things, you know? Yeah, and that was like super conscious, you know. Like I feel like, oh man, I gotta, you know, if I talk to somebody like you, I I have this pressure to like say I have to be perfect, you know, like whatever. And at this point, that is where I'm at. I'm like, I don't, I don't know, man. I don't have like the answers. It the answer is like I'm in it every day and I'm figuring it out every day. And I'm just trying my hardest to make sure that, you know, we're running a good business, we're treating our people well, and we're just like trying to have some fun too, you know, and you just go where you need to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:12

It doesn't have to be that hard. I I I'm I'm with you on that. I appreciate your candor. I appreciate you saying all that. You know, my interest through this whole endeavor is just hearing exactly what you said, which is different ways to, for lack of a better way to put it, you know, skin the cat from a leadership perspective and a vision perspective. And there is no silver bullet. That's why this is this endeavor for me is so fascinating, because there are many different ways to go about it. And there are many different ways that you can be successful. I of of all the books that I've read, of all the tests that I've taken and administered, and of all the courses I've ran and created and ran again, you know, there isn't one that's like, this is this is it. You know what I mean? This has every single tenant of everything and it's going to work. And if you do this, you know, this one thing, it just doesn't that doesn't exist, right? But what I think an environment like this does to hear from people like you and as well as others about their experience is what's behind what's behind the individual that's setting that vision and setting that culture and creating that environment, right? In the vein of top performance and why you are where you are. And so thinking of it from that angle, what are your daily non-negotiables? So like you wake up in the morning, I need to do this, or what routine do you do you have a do you personally have an individual type routine or non-negotiab throughout the day that you must complete or must avoid or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:49

You know what I've I think about this a lot, and I it's a 50-50 coin flip in my head. I've never been a routine person. And so half of the days I'm like mad that I'm not, and then the other half of the days I'm glad, you know. I don't like to say I don't like to take the same route to work every day, you know? And I I think that's probably half ADHD and half being a visionary and creative. I I struggle with routines, but I know that, so I put in guardrails. So I know like I book things a lot. Like if you want to talk to me, I book it. Yeah, you know, I book things. That's what I do, because I I have to. So I've learned how to like almost cope with, and I I bet you a lot of it's probably and I don't want to use ADHD as like a crutch, but I'm sure there's a lot of that in there. So I've just learned to be realistic with who I am and how I operate, and I know my weaknesses, and the weaknesses are usually around getting distracted, not being routine focused, not seeing things through. So I I've learned how to put guardrails in for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:13

And bring people around you, it sounds like to execute on on many of your ideas and and visions, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:18

Like seeking accountability. And I try to, I like even like our sales reps, I'm like, you know, I've learned pretty quickly that like pressure can come in very little forms, you know. Like the biggest pressure, like a game-winning field goal, sure could feel the same as making that phone call follow-up, you know. And so I'm like, it doesn't have to be big, just like put a guardrail in, you know, like put it on your calendar, get somebody to hold you accountable to it and like get really good at that, and then you'll do it, you know? That's what I try to do. So I like book my calendar like crazy into non-negotiables.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:03

Everybody wants to be part of something bigger than themselves, whether they believe it or not, you know, consciously or subconsciously. That's just, I believe, to be true human nature. Everybody wants to be part of something. And so when when individuals aren't willing to chase feedback or chase accountability or put up guardrails, that's concerning to me because I've there there's there's such a selfish undertone to that, in my humble opinion. I'd prefer to be in an environment where there's less structure. Now I'm I'm I think I'm someone more like you, less, you know, task-driven. My my days are are based on where my energy is at and where my energy takes me towards various tasks. Your gut matters. And if you're constantly fighting against and have friction against your internal gut or the way that we're built, I don't know how a person can truly ever know what it is that they have to offer. I don't know how it is that a person can truly know what it is that they need. You you might you probably find yourself in the situation daily uh where a decision has to be made. And and how do you juxtapose uh the urgency of the situation versus uh ensuring that you're making the right decision because the this particular decision might carry a bit more weight than the other 20 decisions you had to make in that day.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:23

I mean, I personally don't think about that. Because you you just in my position you deal with it all the time. Yeah, I don't have a process, yeah. You know, it's it's you know, it it's a gut thing, yeah, right. I mean, and there's obviously going on a path of specific logic you'd have to plot apply, but it's just being in a position so many times that and that's kind of the point is like put yourself in adversity and uncomfortable positions, and then you don't have to think about it, it's second nature, you're not worried about it. You're going, that's not a problem, it's an opportunity. Here's how we can solve it. I have five ways to do it. Let's go, you know, and it's just what you have to do, and it only comes with experience, and that's why like I always I always tell everybody like the fear is all is the ultimate motivator, but fear is a loaded word, you know. So break that down, like you know, accountability and fear are very similar, but like like I have a I have a sales guy who's amazing, but you know, action-wise, there's fear. There's not fear, there's like procrastination, right? Sure. And there's probably the wrong, the different type of fear in that where he's using fear as not a motivator, right? So he's more fearful of you know conflict, or if I you know make this call, is that gonna create more work? He's like the wrong type, well, let's even call it like anxiety or fear, right? Yeah, but I'm like, Wait, you know, you wanna look for the right type of fear, right? The fear of like that meeting's booked, I have to take it, or that there's this responsibility has to happen, and like I need to have it. And you're not if you're not triggering that constantly or putting yourself in the position, like I have to hit this number, like you know, if you're not like seeking that, your brain is gonna allow you to justify the comfort of getting, you know, procrastinating through it all. And that's where I tell a lot of these younger people, especially in Fargo and younger people, like you haven't had a lot of practice at with that type of fear. Yeah, you know, yeah. So, like, you know, your car breaks down, you had somebody to call, right? Right, you know, you never had to figure it out, right? You never had to go. I don't have someone to call. I have to go and like actually use my resources and figure this out. That's and you have your dad's emergency credit card in your attack pocket. You know, right. Yeah. Now when something comes up to me versus you, that's not an issue, but that's an issue to you because you just haven't had enough reps, essentially. You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:27

Nor nor are you taught in any formal capacity. Great school, middle school, high school, college, supposed. I mean, critical thinking is not certainly a class I was ever exposed to in in, you know, I I didn't go to any secondary education other than, you know, four years of college, which I guess is secondary education, but but past that, right? Like I didn't take a critical thinking course, right? I sat and listened to people tell me about statistics. You well, right? But but it it it's it's it's like you know, the actual The actual skills that are required to be successful. Skills I'm talking about, not information, right? I mean, you got to know your alphabet. You got to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:10

You know what a critical thinking course should be? Throw a guy in a room with a tool and a tiger and see what happens. You'd critically think pretty freaking fast, you know? Fight or flight. I I I talk about this all the time, and maybe you let me know what you think of this thought. But because I think about this, I'm a believer that it's not a fear of success, it's a hunger for comfort. Sure. And and I think this is true. And like let's just look at sales. And I even in my position, right? No one wants pressure at all anymore, right? You don't want pressure and you don't want to feel like you have to have pressure. You want to be comfortable. And when you like for me, I've run into scenarios where like, oh, you know, I know that if I call these five people, I'll make a bunch of money, right? But that comes with pressure. Like now I have to perform and I have to do things, and they're gonna, you know, is that a fear of success, or is that a fear of like not feeling comfortable? You see what I'm saying? I do. And so I talk to our team all the time about like, you know, our brain is actually just trying to like look for comfort all the time. So how about negative? What is next negative news is dopamine? Well, that makes us feel more comfortable, like we feel better about ourselves because of that, you know, that's comforting. Or when people try to become a victim, that's comforting. Right now, I have an out, I can blame something if something goes wrong. Like everything is seeking comfort, you know. And so, but I'm also a believer that it isn't who you are, and I always try to tell people it's habits. Like I believe that we get into habits, like you know, like that is a habit you we've all developed, or that's something we've developed as a at a young age or whatever. And sure, yeah, habits can be broken. Yeah, so you know, if you take that plunge, and we'll so we we try to like with sales reps, you know, what do they want to do? They don't want to pick a phone up, right? And so they'll be the best sales reps ever to justify why they shouldn't pick right sell hardware why they're not why they're not working. Yeah, but is that comfortable? Yeah, cold calling people, yeah. Absolutely not, I mean, right? Yeah, so man, they'll try everything in the in the book to tell you why they don't need to be making phone calls, right? And they'll never blame themselves, they'll never blame anything, you know. So I got a guy right now, I'm like, dude, hey, look, do 40 phone calls a day. Not for me, not for the company, whatever, but do it for 30 days, you know? And know that when I tell you this, it's not about me trying to make Spotlight better. It's about me helping you create a new habit as you about as you're about to have a family and all this kind of stuff to tell yourself that you can break out of habits. So if you get into that point in your life where you start going down these holes, you have a plan. You have a 30-day plan to get out of that habit because everything is more habit than anything you tell yourself, right? And so he's doing it though. This is awesome. Good. He's on day three. We had a really like coach and player conversation. Yeah, nobody should ever hear that. Oh, one of those, got it. Okay, yeah, yeah. And but in the best, like like really cared about them kind of way.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:09

So you know clearly. I mean, you don't go out of your way to have that type of conversation with somebody you don't give a shit about.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:14

Like, this can't leave the room, but like this is you have to hear this. Like, you got like it's time, yeah. And so, but I'm like, you know, I I think you know, I haven't read many books, but there is the one book I do I did like was Atomic Abbott. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I thought it was pretty good. But I I do believe that, you know, and I look back when I was uh first starting business. I used to keep my calendar in a little notepad in my back pocket, yeah, you know, and uh that's right when uh phone calendars came up. Oh, sure. And I'm like, there's no way I'm gonna start doing this out there, and I know this is like super trivial and you know small analogy, but it proved something to me, I think about all the time. It's like I fought making that my because the calendar was everything business, like you know, and it took me like a month, and I was like, I'm not doing it, whatever. And then I started doing it, and then before you knew it, I could never go back to the little notepad in my pocket, right? And I'm like, I know this seems small, but like that is the same mechanism for training your brain even on the craziest thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That could happen. Like that experience where like now this is my new habit and I could never go back to the other, that actually could apply to the most hardest things in your life. You have no idea. Yes, you know, yes, like it's actually possible, but most people are convinced it's not because something is ingrained and they won't even try. Well, it's different, yeah. It's it's different than what they yeah. I'm I'm not like I hear creative people say all the time, oh I'm not an accountant, I don't want to think like that, you know. I can't, whatever. It's like, or you know, maybe you're just comfortable and whatever habit you're comfortable in. Yeah, yeah. And it takes time. You can't just do it for three days and whatever. Yeah. So yeah, I told Austin, I'm like, well, what if for 30 days, you know, like you did this thing that I've been begging you to do, and you've come up with all these excuses to pick up because you say that you're not good on the phone and you give me all these excuses. What if you just did it 40 calls a day for a month? I don't want you calling 40 people a day, by the way. You know, yeah, yeah. That's crazy. Like, I don't think you need to do that, but I think you should do it for this purpose. Yeah, you know, yeah, and like, but you have to do it the whole the whole way, just see what happens. Why the hell not? Yeah, you know, and maybe you might just go, holy crap, I just changed my whole behavior. It is a habit. Yeah, and now that recipe you can apply for the rest of your life, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:57

I love that. I absolutely love that. So his day he's in three days, you said third day three was today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any any early returns from his perspective?

SPEAKER_01 1:57:09

Well, and I here's the other thing, though, is I told him I told him here's what's gonna happen. You know, you're gonna agree and you're gonna set out to do it. But there's one thing I want you to do too, is I want you to make sure that you add some accountability ground uh guardrails in there too. Yeah, okay. You have to expose yourself and you have to be vulnerable when you do this, otherwise your brain will convince you out, you know. So I said, my idea, up to you, but like put in your calendar every single day to check into me with me, like with specific check-ins, like to like almost make sure the check-in says that you didn't like skip any corners, you know. And then like use me as that accountability. And if you're really smart, write this down, this like plan. Yeah, yeah. Share it with your girlfriend, yeah, or whatever, right? Yeah, because if you actually believe, like you say you're believing with me, because you're agreeing and you're saying you really want to do this and you agree with the actual benefit that we're trying to achieve here, not just like for work. Sure, yeah, yeah. And you're like, really care about this, then like really do it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:58:15

Yeah, it's not a task, it's a it's a paradigm shift in a way, right? You're taking on an entirely new perspective of something, and on the other side of it is is is left to be determined. But the reality is you're doing something hard, and that's not something you're used to doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:30

And that's where we we used to do those massive action days. Yeah. And that was one of those. Yeah, maybe tell me about those. Yeah, yeah. So I I would plan every minute of the day, every single minute. From like six to six, like down to the T, and the goal was to not move. So, like, just do exactly what's on there. Like, you cannot negotiate. That's the idea. What's the outcome you're chasing here? Discipline. Yeah. Number one's discipline. Like, can I control my brain? Can I not let my brain convince me to move? Yeah to like change my mind, right? And then also, like anxiety, like, you know, how many people will say, like, oh, I'm so busy, but then they'll take the next day off and everything goes on, right? Right. You know, so it's more like, you know, it's okay to focus on something. And if everything else doesn't happen, at least the right things are in there and you're focusing, right? Yeah. And so, and then it's about proving to yourself what you're actually capable of. And that's really rewarding because when you do these, you're like, holy shit, I just did more in one day than I did in three weeks. And I'll tell you right now, like, some people would probably do more in one day if they did this than in like a like two months.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:47

Yeah, not a lot of leaders are willing to sit down and have that conversation with somebody because they don't care enough to do so.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:53

Though those are mostly like the only type of conversations I have with everybody. Yeah. And you this some of them will blow you away. I don't have much turnover with my sales reps, about six of them. They're all just salary, and the only way they get raises, commissions, or bonuses is if they come and negotiate with me.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:15

Wonderful. Yeah. Wonderful. So no like annual cost of living increase, nothing like that. It's just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:23

No contracts, nothing. Here's your salary. Nobody's even signed anything. It's just if you I'm gonna teach you how to negotiate with me and what I care about. Yeah. And if you do these things and you agree with me, then come talk to me and I'll take care of you. And chances are, and what I usually do is I take care of take care of them if they're doing a good job without them talking to me. Sure. You know, sure. But you're gonna, it's gonna be really clear that you understand how to negotiate. Yeah. You know, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:57

What what what got you there to this negotiation kind of bedrock?

SPEAKER_01 2:01:02

Well, like, I don't know. I mean, I in a small business trying to come up with these complex comp scenarios, and then half the time I don't have the software that supports it or the team to manage it, and then this, and then is it really motivating people half the time? No, you know, like then you're just paying people to do the same thing and they just expect more money, and like, you know, nobody's ever learning anything or doing anything, you know. And and so, like back in the day, I'd say 10 years ago, it was, you know, people I I do believe were more motivated, and the market reflected that differently, it was harder to get other jobs, and so like you could work out a pretty simple small salary, high commission deal, and it's easy. But now, I mean, people can get jobs anywhere, you know, and so they need high salary, higher salaries, and then the difference of commission that they can make is not that motivating, right? So if they hit half of it or like the 75% of it, it's like fine, right? You know, so yeah, it doesn't motivate the needle as much anymore. So now it's more to me, it's like I'm gonna pay you a really good salary. It's your job to lose essentially, because I'm gonna take most of the risk here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:21

And if you want to make more money, you have to understand how to make more money. You got to create value, you know, beyond what you're already being paid for. So, what am I getting? What you're being what you're being paid for right now, what are you giving me? And what are you agreeing to give me? And then what are you gonna do to make more? And then when you do those things, come tell me what you did, or I'll see it, and then we'll give you more. And then it's it's a win.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:44

The irony, whether you're doing this intentionally or not, is that that's a that that philosophy, that that mindset is exactly how they should be approaching their sales targets. Yeah. Right. Like, like create value so that they have to talk to you and they want to they don't just have to talk to you, they want to talk to you because you've created value in their eyes, that the time that they're willing to spend with you as their as the buyer is valuable, right? And so you actually have something as a seller you can bring them that they want and and need, and that gives you leverage because you now are in a situation where you're actually able to negotiate this contract that they're about to sign to do business with you because their leader, Mike, taught them how to do that for their livelihood and their salary, right? I don't know if that was ever conscious to you before, but as I hear it, it's just like, yeah, what an incredible bed to lay on.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:35

I mean, it's just another one of those things like that just makes sense. And I don't think I don't know if anybody else does it, but it's just kind of like, and I don't know if it's great, but it's like this is what I think is makes sense. And so, but that it needs to be important that I have these conversations. So we talk a lot about like guys, it's not just hard skills, it's soft skills. Like, you know, you might think that the money is everything, it's not like you gotta think this through, right? You know, if you come at me and you negotiate and you say, Hey, my quota was 500 grand and I sold 600 grand, you know, but you don't understand how much I care about these soft skills, yeah. Like, yeah, there might be a little raise in there, but man, you might have missed a huge raise, you know, because we're gonna we gotta factor in the right stuff. We you know, that that 600 grand might have cost us 400 grand. We don't know, you know? That might have the way you got that money might have hindered the business's total success. Well, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:39

The the examples in in sports are are many. You know, the your clubhouse cancer guy, right? Your Johnny Manzel, who's got a ton of talent, but nobody wants to be around the guy. You know what I mean? It's like you can't have a captain of your team being your biggest idiot. You know, you can't have a culture where you're just bringing in a top producer killer and expect the culture to stay the same. You know, it just doesn't, it doesn't work that way. Uh because because somebody's being cheated there, either the current sellers, you as a leader when you put your head on the pillow at night, or even the guy that you're bringing in to be your killer, because you're putting him in a situation where he's probably a fish out of water. And then that that ain't great either, right? So no, I I'm hearing you, man. At the root, you know, the culture, the accountability, the vision in an environment where you know you're going to be supported. This is really this is really fun, man. I really appreciate you taking the time. I love hearing your perspective on on all of these things. So I really do appreciate your time. I I want to get a couple thoughts though from you just as we move towards wrapping up. If you could go back, what sort of advice or what what that would have been extremely valuable at the time that in hindsight you wish you could go back and drop on your plate?

SPEAKER_01 2:05:58

Uh there's a couple that come to mind. I mean, there's a lot. Yeah, I'm sure. Trying to think how shallow or deep to go with that, I guess. I I I think the number one thing I think about all the time is to know how to create as much accountability guardrails for like picking my head up and saying hi to people and stuff like that. I mean it it's really easy to get into the tunnel mode, tunnel vision, and the regrets are more just like you know, saying thank you or asking somebody how their day is and stuff like that, you know? Yeah. It's so rewarding, but so easy to you know let months go by. Yeah. Thank you to clients, thank you to, you know, more appreciation, right? Sure. Because that's the heart, that's the you get so consumed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Figuring everything out. So I I would say that would be like just making like preaching to myself how to solve all these other problems with that problem. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:25

No, that lands. I got that. Do you have a an established why or like a personal mission statement or anything like that? Like when you if you if you get into the doldrums again, I know this is approaching more sort of process that we've we've already identified, isn't it or or maybe structure is a better word. Which is no, but you know what I mean? Like, I the the only reason I ask that is because it's like some people are are right off the bat, like this is why I do it, right? And and actually when we do our business plans uh on my team, we've we've got an area there. It it's more for individuals to get used to processing just why we do anything, you know, like like who who are we? What do we have to give? What do what do we need? You know, who do we want to be, that type of stuff. What are our values?

SPEAKER_01 2:08:11

Every day to me is an unknown of where anything's going. And and I'm learning so much every day and keeping my brain going, and I don't know if that's good or bad, or maybe it's a habit. I don't know, but I don't know. I just think I'm obsessed with the process. Yeah, I don't care where I go with it. Like, I just want to keep going forward. And like I used to, like with football, I I struggled because I'm like, I got as close as anybody could ever get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I never got there. Like I my foot was on the white line with the Browns, and I never went over it, you know. Like, is there any guy that made it that close, right? You know, and so I struggled with that a lot. Yeah. And kept throughout my early career kind of like is that's gonna happen again? Like go out of business before I make any money or whatever, right? Yeah. And uh now I'm just like this is like amazing, like to be in this position. And now I'm like, maybe the goal is to be in the position that I'm trending towards where I don't have to prove anything, I can run things how I want to run them and just go back to what I I I'm about, which is like figuring it out and seeing what happens. Yeah, you know, yeah, and hopefully do it the right way. And and I mean, I I think I chose the long route, you know. I mean, I just put your head down and go. And I think great things are gonna happen. I love that, you know. I love and I I actually had these, I had these conversations with guys a lot because I'm like, you know, maybe sometimes it's okay to not feel like somebody has to give you something for you to do something. Uh-huh. You know, maybe, maybe just go do something great and see what happens, you know. Intrinsic motivation. Because there's a lot of a lot of young sales reps, you know, like, whoa, you know, for me to, you know, put in the time and do the things that are needed, well, what's in it for me? You know, it's like, yeah, what if you put in the time and do what was needed? Maybe something would happen.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:33

Right, right. Yeah. And how do you even uh begin to approach knowing what you need as a 25-year-old? I'm blown away by by your experience, but also your commitment to the way in which you do things. I think it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:52

Well, what's really, really cool. One thing to note is like, and I didn't talk much about what we do, but like just this week, I mean, this is what's so cool, and this is why I don't really care about what happens in the future because it's I just get to experience great things. We used to be in magazines, now it's a small piece. Now, literally, my job is helping businesses solve problems and grow. And like today, I'm on a I'm on a call with our client that has 10,000 churches in the world that they do accounting software for. Wow, cool. And we're doing, you know, helping them figure out what how to like convert more and then build them a new website, help them with the back end of software, whatever, whatever. Then I'm on with a hospital we're building their website for and doing their marketing for. And then then I'm getting, you know, fish and game, North Dakota Fish and Game. Oh, cool. Then uh then I'm working with you know, sparling construction, homes and shooms, barn dominiums in Bismarck, you know, and helping them figure out how to go. Viral, right? You know, yeah. And and then I'm on a call with, you know, a national temperature monitoring company that we're helping, you know, it's just like, and I'm literally just learning, and I have to learn everything about these businesses and just like learn about these people and what they're going through and how to help them and how to solve their problems. We have a seed company right now. We that we're building them in a huge e-commerce website for and using API connections and all these kind of things. And I'm like, holy shit, the stuff I'm learning like every day is crazy, you know, and it's so awesome. And you just like it's just the most exhilarating thing, you know. And then now I gotta go figure out like I'm building my own vibe code app to solve problems for our proposals on the side, and and then you know, we're getting, you know, we're just all day just like building Lego blocks, you know? Yeah, it's great. You're learning, and so then it's just every day I'm like, this is like if something goes wrong, or you know, I'm cool, like the amount of stuff I'm learning, I'm protected. Yeah, you know, like I like that. Yeah, this is actually valuable. That's what my goal is. Like, you know, the education is so much that like there isn't anything in this world I can't overcome. Yeah, you know, and so now I don't have any fear. That's the goal, you know. Be curious and just like, you know, seek information all day, go at it and just like, you know, go all in and just like don't wait for permission or like somebody has to give you something to do things, just you know, and something no matter what, either something great is gonna happen or if something bad's gonna happen, I'm gonna be prepared. Yeah. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:53

Either way, you're not afraid of it. Right. And and the value of not being rigid in your process or in your day-to-day per se, right? Is it leaves you space to be genuinely curious, to have the energy to learn what it is that you need to know to help these organizations solve the problems that they have, right? I mean, if you had a very rigid process that you tried to drop every single client into, I would imagine, I mean, you're gonna have a very probably a pretty small book of very niche clients that are like, well, we only work here because this is the only process that works for this type of company. Like, that's not the way business works, right? You have to identify, you know, how your solutions fix their problems. And the best way you can do that, and this is, I mean, sales 101, life 101 really, is genuine curiosity and space to actually listen to the answers of the questions that you're asking about, right? Their business, their, their goals, their visions, their try to promote that environment as opposed to just start checking boxes and I'm uh I I tell my team, like, don't ever call me the leader.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:02

I want to be called, I I literally just feel like I'm a big brother. That's it. And that's what I that's like way, maybe a way to sum it all up, you know? Because I don't like leader because you know, I think it's cliche, and that's not gonna be me. But I'm gonna be the one that shoots you straight, got your back, and we're gonna figure this out, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:26

Is it is it th also the big brother? It's like like nobody else can yell at you, but I can yell at you. Well, I'm like, we're gonna get in fights, we're gonna screw the beams up, we're gonna laugh. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Only I can beat him up. You can't beat him up. I can beat him up, but you can't beat him up.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:42

But for real, that's all I'm like, I'm gonna mean that is my job. Like, I hope you appreciate that. Yeah. Because I that to these what I say to them. Because I'm like, I am. If you expect me to be an executive leader, it's just not, and I that's what I tell people when I hire them. I'm like, look, I'm gonna be like a big brother. Yeah, I'm probably gonna get on your nerves sometimes. We're probably gonna get in fights, we're gonna laugh a lot, you know. But here's the deal I'm always gonna shoot you straight. I'm always gonna have your back, you know, and just that's all we gotta do.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:19

It's just so refreshing. It's so refreshing to hear you say that and that there are still individuals and organizations out there that people can can aspire to to become, but also that exists for you know younger, newer entrants. I'm not suggesting that's the only people that you hire, but from what I gather, that that's you know, you're a lot of younger people you were talking about, right? So that that that environment still exists for them to be able to go into because there there seems to be this kind of checklist of things for for people to go through or kids to go through that if I do this, this will happen. If I do this, this will happen. If I go to this college, I'll get this job and then I'll do this. And it's like, that ain't how it works, man. Like, that's not how life is.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:03

It's just not. I used to be, you know, like I said, I used to try to be the leader, the leader on paper, right? You know, and because that's what everybody thinks you need to do. Follow the, you know, like all the stuff in the books. And you know, you just find out at this stage of business you can't execute on it, so you actually let people down way more, you know, and you set up way too much structure you didn't execute on, and it it tore apart culture because you weren't ready for it, and that's why I keep saying, like it this is probably a great thing to say to people in this type of business, like this, you know. But maybe there's some things you can that people can take from it, but like it's just kind of like trial and error, and that's what I tell people like I've you know, you might want pay range, job description things of everything that you think you need to do, and all this kind of stuff. I'm not gonna give it to you. I'm gonna tell you what I need you to do, and I'm gonna I'm gonna answer your questions, I'm gonna put you in the best position to succeed, right? But you actually probably don't want that, you think you need it, yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, but you actually just honestly probably want best of both worlds, and that let's be honest. You know, totally you you want like structure and no structure at the same time, it's just not gonna happen. Yep. But here's what's going to happen, you know?

SPEAKER_02 2:18:21

Like you want the structure so you know where you can try to bend the rules or what you can try to get around, yeah.

No Title

SPEAKER_01 2:18:26

All that, and then it's not gonna you're gonna get frustrated and you're gonna hate your job because it's not gonna fall, it's not it's not possible, and you're not gonna hold accountability to it because that's not your vibe either. Yeah, and it that it's too small like we're growing too quick, like it's gonna be obsolete in a month, like whatever. So here's here's how it's gonna go, right? Yeah, you know, yeah, like you're gonna spearhead this stuff here. We're gonna give you every tool and everything you need to be successful. Answer all your questions, how do anything you need, right? But you know, answer this question. Do you want to grow and be successful and are you driven? Yes, okay. Well, then can I hold you that standard? You know, or do you want to just be here and do a job? That's okay too. I'm gonna hold you that standard. No, I want to grow and be right, right? All right, so remember that. All right, so now so now sounds simple. We're gonna have a conversation. Yeah, and this is the framework of how we do things. Here's how you negotiate, here's how you create value, you know? And so just think about that as you go forward, yeah, and let's see how it goes. And that's how we operate, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:35

I love it, man. Well, I sincerely appreciate your time tonight on this Friday evening. It's good to spend some time with the family a little bit. Anything we didn't talk about today that you were hoping we would that we I either glossed over or didn't get to? Oh, you got a lot out of me, man. That's the goal. That's the goal. I learned a lot, man. I um again, I sincerely appreciate it. I would love to love to do it again sometime. But uh, Mike Dragosovich, thank you so much for being here. Hey, thank you. Appreciate you, buddy.