Jillian Vose: The Apple of Hazel & Apple in Charleston

The Banter

The Guys talk about their visit to one of their new favorite cities: Charleston, SC.

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys catch up with cocktail creator and bar operator Jillian Vose in her Charleston home as she prepares to open up her newest venture, Hazel and Apple, with business partner Sean Muldoon. Jillian tells her story of where she’s been and where she’s going (which is pretty exciting!)

The Inside Track

The Guys have known Jillian from Death & Co. and The Dead Rabbit (NYC) and were happy to meet up while they were in Charleston. Jillian shares some of what she is looking forward to about running her soon-to-open bar Hazel and Apple. 

“Knowing that people want to work, they want to do a good job, and hiring the right people and investing in people, having a great education program and giving people opportunities not only helps yourself, but them. That is what I want to achieve and create: a great community and a great working environment,” Jillian Vose on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025

Bio

Jillian Vose is a renowned mixologist and entrepreneur, celebrated for her innovative approach to cocktails and her influential presence in the beverage industry. After starting out in AZ, she quickly ascended the ranks, contributing significantly to establishments like Clover Club, Maison Premiere, Death & Co., and notably, The Dead Rabbit in NYC. Her latest venture, Hazel and Apple in Charleston, SC, is set to bring a fresh perspective to the city's vibrant bar scene.

Co-authored Mixology & Mayhem and Paddy Drinks: The World of Modern Irish Whiskey Cocktails

Named one of the 10 Best American Bartenders in 2017 by the Spirited Awards from Tales of The Cocktail.

Info

Hazel and Apple, Charleston, SC

https://www.hazelandapple.com/

Badger Bevs 

https://badgerbevs.com/

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Transcript

0:47

Hello everybody, and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left in Kaha Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hello, mark. Hey Francis. How are you? I'm good. What do you got for me this morning? Well, you know, it's funny, I, we have been talking a lot about our Charleston trip, but we packed so much into that Charleston trip where we learned new things and did new things that are exciting. So, we gotta talk about Charleston again. Okay, today's guest is Jillian Voes. Jillian is the general manager and partner. She was the manager of the Dead Rabbit in New York City. and she is with our friend Sean Muldoon, a general manager and partner of Hazel and Apple, down in Charles Hazel. Apple gonna open right on King Street. Right next to Ion. Awesome. Awesome. We had a great time. We went town. We saw the space. Yeah. And the space isn't ready. It's under construction, so Oh, it's very not ready. Oh, it's not ready. But their plans are great. Their investors are great. We met a bunch of the partners and and we know those guys for years. It's gonna be terrific. And we met Jillian in her apartment. Yes. Which was pretty amazing. Yes. Her apartment was built for a live. A bartender, though it was not built for a live small bartender guy. she's relocated down to Charleston and what she's doing while she's down there is just getting the bar ready. But, she's got a little apartment and she. Has converted it into,'cause she's doing a lot of events. Mm-hmm. So it's a lot of bar prep space in her. So it was a test kitchen at the same time. Yeah. And she had, she was doing a couple events while we were there and so there was SUV machines and lots of coolers and freezers and stuff. Coolers and freezers and bottles and mixes and, and they were everywhere. And I'm, you know what? And I'm too big to live in that apartment. You are too big to walk around in that apartment. But it was lovely. We did the podcast from our kitchen table. We'll be talking about it later. Uhhuh. I love Jillian v. Been, we've been friends for a long time and to visit her apartment. She's anal retentive like I am. Everything has a place, a place for everything and everything in its place. Well, her apartment was almost like a precursor to what Hazel and Apple's gonna be. Yeah, right. Every piece of artwork, every piece of furniture, thoughtful, was thoughtful and had a story that she could contextualize if you were interested enough. Yeah. To ask What's that? Yeah. What's that? And we did, we didn't do it for everything'cause we didn't have a ton of time, but we're like, what's that? Oh, well that's, from, uh, roll Doll's book and I know it was the first book I ever read. You know, literally everything. Had a story like that. I love it. And so, what was interesting to talk to her about the people down in Charleston, and now we'll segue away from Jillian'cause she's gonna be joining us mm-hmm. To talk about herself in the first person momentarily. But just the vibe down there was awesome. Yeah. I have to say. we met, we met and met the owner of Prohibition, which is our next Hazel Apple. James. The guy James is terrific. Belfast man. Yeah.

Francis: 3:28

and just everybody we met down there, the vibe is, crazy mellow, and the fish is out of this world world

Mark: 3:34

I've been to Charleston before and it was a little different this time. Mm-hmm. It had a little bit more, what's the word I'm looking for? Vibrancy, Pepnet, step, not vibrancy. It was, it's, it was vibrant the last time too. Okay. But everybody was just moving a little quicker, a little bit. a, there was just a little bit more. Or sense of urgency going on down there and not in a bad way. Yeah, in a, in a good way, especially when I'm talking about service. I really felt, but I will tell you, everyone was nice. Everyone was sophisticated, everyone was polite and deferential, as you might expect, Southern hospitality is real. It's real, but, but it's got a real sophistication to it too that I just, I thought the whole thing was tremendous and the. The scene on King Street of people walking around at all hours of the day and night and well dressed people and, who were just having fun, you know? Yeah. And it was, there was nothing but good vibes about the whole place in the bars, everywhere on the street. It's terrific. I don't. Want to talk negatively about Florida. I've been down there a couple times in the last year. Yeah. my uncle's down there went down to the keys. Yep. And had a lovely time, everywhere I went in Florida, Miami, I. But Charleston is much more a city. I could see myself saying, you know what, I'm gonna spend a few months a year down here and enjoy the weather in Charleston. Much more so than that Florida. And I know Florida's filled with much more New Jersey and New Yorkers, but it does seem a. That there are some more people from New York and New Jersey in, in Charleston than there was the last time I was there. Our buddy Scott was telling us that something like a hundred people a day moved to Charleston from the Raider, Charleston area. Interesting. From the northeast. and you could see why. Yeah. and what was funny, the other thing, it was really striking, comparing it to Florida, even comparing it to places that are less expensive. Everything was less expensive down there. The meals, the cocktails, the wine and the wine list. Yes. And by the way, the other thing. Mm-hmm. Uh, the wines down there are really sophisticated. Yes. Not just American wines, European wines. Yes. And they're, really inexpensive. I'm going back. I, there, there were restaurants, even restaurants that I didn't love that had really good intelligent wine lists. Yeah. Yeah. it was great. And you, again, I was in Charlotte recently. Charlotte doesn't have the same vibe that Charleston does. Yeah. Charleston really, really lovely. I can't think of a negative thing to say about the city. Do you know what I, you know what I'm thinking? What do you think? As, as we were, our vacation was coming to a close. I was like, and I hear all those people, northerners are moving in there and, The, we looked at the housing prices and the rent. Mm-hmm. And not that we're planning on moving down there, but, and the cocktails, and I thought. this is a hidden gem. And you know what happens to hidden gems? They get unhidden, the restaurant guys talk about them and then everybody moves there. Yeah. We're unearthing a gem. maybe we shouldn't air this. It's already all right. It's already been unearth. No, the world knows about Charleston already. Yeah. So Charleston is great. I just hope it doesn't get eaten by its own popularity. Yeah. I hope it gets to retained what it is, but It will have Hazel and Apple from Sean Muldoon and Jillian Voes from the Dead Rabbit. And we're gonna talk with Jillian Vose in just a moment. We're taking you back to Charleston right now. Hello there everybody, and welcome back. We are talking to you from South Carolina at the home of Jillian Vose. You may have known Jillian Vose from her long tenure at the Dead Rabbit in New York City. she was at Death and Co and Meison Perme before that and she's now opening a new project down here called Hazel and Apple, in which Mark and I are getting involved in Hazel and Apple with our old friend Sean Muldoon. the bar isn't open yet. The bar isn't quite built yet, and so we are sitting in Jillian's living room. Thanks for having us, Jillian. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, and welcome to my humble abode. it's great. This is great. This is our first, we were just pointing out before, this is our first, podcast. from someone's home, Well, it's definitely better than the, uh, construction site, of the bar, so I don't know. That might've been exciting. Yeah. So, I don't know if you remember the first night that we met. I don't know if I ever told you a story, but I met you and I, I think I have this right. You were at death and Company. The day before you were to start work at Death and Company and you were at the bar with friends and I wound up in the bar that night and we just struck up a conversation. Okay. And you were the girl who was gonna start at the, at death and company. Is that possible? Am I remembering that correctly? I mean, I'm sorry to say I don't remember it. It was a five minute conversation, but I only remembered it because then I went back a few times and saw you behind the bar, and then we became friends and we were friends for a long time. But yeah, we go back way back to then. Yeah. So I was like, oh, I'm starting to work tomorrow. You were gonna start there the next day. And that was, that's funny. Yeah, the dodging process there was pretty intense. I think I had to go in and kind of like, because I had never, I hadn't been there too many times before I started working there. I kinda had to go in and get an idea of what's going on. so you came to New York as a bartender. Tell us about Jillian's arrival in New York before you took it over. I meant New York where you took over New York. not quite, so I'm from Cape Cod, Massachusetts, just always been, working since the day I could legally, maybe even before that. and, I. Played sports, played music, did well in school. And then, decided that instead of going to college and playing, field hockey competitively, I decided to move to Arizona. And I was like, where's far warm and cheap? Arizona. In Arizona and I al already had a lot of friends out there, so kind of made sense. And yeah, I got a one way ticket and. And there I was. So never been there in my life. So think so. You just went? Yeah, I just went. Took your stuff. I just went, yep. Turned it over your shoulder and said, I'm moving to Arizona. Yep. Did you know what you were gonna do out there? Nope. How old were you? 17. 17. That's awesome. Yep. Yep. 17. to be honest, my parents would not have had any problem with that. They've been like, oh, you wanna go do something? Go get outta my house. Well get outta my house. Get outta my house. Your parents. Well, my thing was like, you tell me I, I can't do something and that's exactly what I'm gonna do. Mm-hmm. So, you know, that's why, you know, poor choices and tattoos or, you know, If that's not your attitude though, you will never open a restaurant. Yeah. Because you crazy. Well, and everybody in the world will tell you no. That's a bad decision. It a. Including the three of us. Everybody's done it. Yeah, everybody's done it. Like, so gimme advice, like, yeah, don't do that. Don't do this. It's a terrible idea. I gotta tell you something. We started shortly after we began the restaurant guys, or about the same time we started when we were probably the first food podcast in the world in May of 2005. We were doing a bunch of consulting and then we, we had the podcast and not a lot of people knew about podcasts back then, but people found out about us and hired us to consult. Our best consulting advice we gave to people was like, here's the minimum, here's the retainer. I want it in advance. And I do. We listen to their business, bros. We do the whole thing. okay, our advice is consultants don't fucking do this. And we had like four or five people take us up on it and they're like, okay, well if I wanna do it, I'm like, okay, then you have to do these things here. Mm-hmm. And like, yeah, maybe I won't, maybe I won't hear that. How I start every consulting conversation is. Is there anything else you can do that will make you happy? Yeah. Because you should do that instead of immerse yourself into this crazy life that you're about to encounter. Yeah. Do you, do you want a baby that's actually just a building and know, play whack-a-Mole with a maintenance every day. Whack-a-mole is restaurant management. Yeah. That's how I found in New York was like, oh, fix this league. Oh. Pop it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I call it that. Well, we're in a hundred year old building, so we, so there is same always something going wrong. Oh God. Yeah. And we own it. Yep. So the choice is you can fix it or it could keep leaking. Yeah. that's all there is. Maintenance is very costly. Yeah. Well, and it's funny, mark and I have both, I particularly have become much more handy over the course of the last 30 years of running restaurants because you're like, I, if you're gonna have the HVAC guy come in. I'm gonna stand behind him and watch what he does.'cause he seems to be doing the same thing twice a year. And if I can figure it out, it's gonna save a ton of cash. Yeah. Jennifer comes to the restaurant a lot for those who listen line, you know, Jennifer Mark's wife, our producer mm-hmm. And she's like, I just wanna get some talking head shots. I just wanna get some video of you guys. And she's like, I. How did you ever get any work done? here's the time we're supposed to meet, and the carpet guy and the HVAC guy and the wine salesman are all here and you have to Yeah. Then the PMs went down. Yeah, the went down. Yeah. And it's a Saturday night and the fire alarm's going off. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's always, when it rains, it pours and people always say oh, you're the beverage director, whatever, the bar manager, and you're like, it's. Yeah, glorious. I went to like a, a restaurant and bar equipment, trade show in Atlanta last week. Like, how fun, you know, or, literally all my pockets and my jeans from when I worked at, dead Rabbit or Death and Go, like, they're all like, totally they're totally worn out, expanded, worn out. Exactly. Because, I had just tools, yeah, tools. I had wrenches and screwdrivers and keys that. For everything and it was like, it was just so funny. It was a glorified mechanic kind, but you love it plumber, but you love it. One of one of learned a lot. Learned a lot. I was just talking to the chef about this in the last week or so, there was a day, so our hot water heater is in its own little room off the back of the kitchen and somebody left the window open in the middle of winter time, and so all the pipes froze in the hot water heater and then thawed, and then they unfroze, right Andro. The hot water heater just started springing leaks of boiling water. Right. So you couldn't get close to turn it off that hot pool. Yeah, it's, and it's 300 gallons, so the choice is go in there and turn it off at the bottom or 300 gallons of water is gonna go. into your restaurant, but it had a self-defense mechanism. It was shooting hot water at you if you tried to get near it. Oh my God. So everybody's ah, it's just boiling water and there's nothing we can do. I'm like, I'm in a suit. I'm the maitre d. And I go in there and I'm just like, ah, boiling water all over me, soaking wet hit the mechanic and send Mark to the hospital. Need to dry out for a little while before I step on the floor. What I, why was somebody in that. Hot water room and opening a window. It's still a mystery. It's a restaurant business. Still a mystery because it's a restaurant business. let's quit whining about we love this light. We love this. It is a great light. there's a reason you don't go to an office every day. You could have if you stayed at the rabbit and went a different way. You could even in the restaurant business, have been more of an office job if you wanted it. I'm really not. That's not my strong Of course not. You'd be bored. I and many people then tell you like, you have to do a spreadsheet or inventory. I'm like, oh, numbers. Yeah. Listen, I'm in Charleston. I'm in in Jillian v's. Apartment. We're gonna go out to lunch after this. We're at the Wine and Food Festival. I'm doing this'cause of the fun stuff, but you gotta be ready for the whole deal. I gotta tell you gotta be ready for the whole deal. On the adrenaline. I'm gonna throw this back to both of you guys. I, there was a day, you know what the day that encapsulated at frame memo most was? It was the, okay, here's the job of the owner. The sewage ejector pump went on the fritz, right? And that's all of the sewage from the first floor, all of it, right? So in that afternoon, first stories, maybe you shouldn't tell.'cause it's funny, but nobody should. So it was gross and it was awful and I didn't love that while I was doing it. Three hours later, the governor is in to dinner and I'm recommending dinner to the governor and I'm like, I like my life, life. I'm in this, I'm in the toilet this afternoon. Fixing it. Yeah. I was on the roof the day before and now I'm in the dining room serving the governor Burgundy. I like that it's, it's more interesting. It makes life more interest. And you guys do too. Am I right? Yes. Very much. Like is Burgundy has a certain earthy smell? No, I'm sorry, governor. That's me. That's me. It's the CIO of the Rioja. You're drinking Sarah. That's. Well, okay, so you're at the Dead Rabbit and, I'm a regular frequenter of the Dead Rabbit. Yeah. Yeah. That's how we became better friends. Yeah. We've seen you've seen each other more at the Dead Rabbit than anywhere before. So The Dead Rabbit was owned by two friends of mine from Belfast. Sean and Jack, and we've had Jack on the show and we've had Sean on the show. Mm-hmm. But, so they decided to go different ways in what they wanted to do and manage the bars that they wanted to manage. And you and, Sean came down here to Charleston. Yep. And while Jack is taking the dead rabbit in a different direction, opening multiple dead rabbits around this, country and Irish exits and Irish exits and th sports bar and the whole thing. You and Sean were like, we wanna have a bar. We want a home and be great home. So talk to us about the choice that you made to come here and be part of this. And then we wanna talk about like, moving to Charleston and changing gears and all that. But what was the change that happened? What, how did the, what's Hazel and Apple is gonna be the name of the place. Yes. That's gonna open this year. Yeah, we can get into that maybe after. Yeah. But tell us about your life and the choice with Hazel and Apple and how Hazel and Apple's gonna be distinct from the mission you would've had if you stayed at the dead rabbit. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, didn't even finish the last question, but yeah. Came to New York, and, you know, got lucky a little bit, worked hard and where I am, had some great opportunities from taking bar five day. Which really opened up a huge network for me. which is kind of like the doctorate programming in bar back in the day. Bartending. Yeah. This was 2010 that I took it so that was one of the first years I did it. It was one of the only females that did it too. It's five intensive days of bar training. That, and I'm a fellow, bar, five day graduate. And it was, and Mark made fun of me because I had never had an energy drink before until I went to the bar five day.'cause it's A day of nine, 10 hours of training, and then you have a test at the end of the week, and then your next day is nine and 10 hours. So the only choice is to go home and not sleep and study what you learned the day before. Yeah, it's insane. So you were at Bar five day when you were where? At the Dead Rabbit or before? No, no, no. I, I, moved to Arizona after, after high school. Um, kind of hit a ceiling there. I worked in fine dining, worked at a brewery, and then I moved over, back home to Cape Cod and kind of figuring out, oh, I'm gonna go to Boston, I'm gonna go to New York. And the opportunities in New York were just like, there was so much more potential. Mm-hmm. so like, what year is this? This is 2000. Nine or 10, I don't even know anymore. So, so the cocktail world is really extreme. It, yeah. This is like, you know, death and going open, really gone p dt and Milk and Honey. They were kind of like, yep. They were, the cool kids, you know, and still are. so I was home on the Cape and decided to, I was gonna go to New York. Mm-hmm. But, I had heard people talk about Bar five day, this is before you had to take Bar Smarts first too. I didn't even know what that was at the time. And so I literally like filled in the application the night before or I called, I like, called the phone, I called the mm-hmm. The, the landline and like, called like answer the phone. I was like, wasn't expecting that. He's like, well, you know, if we can get your application in the next day. And so I did. And, um, I didn't get any help with the cost. But it was the best thing I did.'cause it was people I met on that, and that group was, well, like I said, especially at that time. Right. that was like. I'll call it stage two, right? So the early days in the nineties and, early aughts, you had a, a group of people. Yeah. And then that, oh five to 2010, you had that kind of, that next group of people who grew. It's cool to see the tree, like the schools that then developed a branch, branch out, which is a really cool thing to see. I, I also wanna point out like in obviously in an early dedication to your craft, that bar five day was like$5,000, wasn't it? At the time I did, I think at the time I did. I think it was like. 25 or 25, 27. But yeah. But that was a long time ago. In today's dollars, that's four or$5,000. Yeah. And most people who took it had a company or corporation. Right. Responsive brand resume. Me. I didn't get like a scholarship or anything. Like I invested in my future, like I wasn't going to college or whatever. Sure. I just heard that it was like the thing to do and I was like, I didn't expect to get in. And so I literally was like, well, I'm not gonna go to New York and pay for a hotel. I go, I'm just gonna move. So I slept on an air mattress in my new apartment in the Upper East Side, and you've developed a certain style here when you moved from one city to another, apparently, where you kind just, I just wing it backpack and I'm here. Yeah. Lots of funny stories about that, but I know we're getting off track, but I just wanted to go from there, but, so. Like that experience led me to, work at, at Clover Club for a bit. and also gave me the opportunity to meet the right people to be on the opening team on Maison Premier. Yeah. Where I met the bar manager at the time, Thomas Wa, who used to come in on Friday nights and watch me get my butt kicked and they needed a bartender. It's just I had a little bit of luck, but just worked hard and picked up shifts and was just, did everything I could to learn and, you know, it was fake it till you make it. Mm-hmm. Like I really had to catch up, if you know what I mean, Uhhuh, um, because I didn't have that New York experience. but I was a bartender, you know what I mean? Like, I knew how to multitask and I was like, I was fast and I could, do the dance. but as far as like the. The education of spirits or cocktail making. that took some time. And it really wasn't until death and Co that I was surrounded by people like Joaquin Smo and Thomas, and, Phil Ward, Brian Miller, like those guys just even being around them and understanding balance and mm-hmm. Um, like just like different sugars. And why would you use this rye over that rye? And it, I really had. Probably the most influential time in my career was there. and yeah, but for me, I think you did things in the right order, right? So your first order of business is, okay, I gotta get the syntax of what this job is. I have to, okay, I do this first, I do this next, I do this next. I multitask. I prioritize this, I prioritize that. I'm a bartender to the customers. And that you have to do that before, and I feel like a lot of bartenders now are trying to do the other part first. Okay. I wanna learn about, how to make drinks and the balance of the drinks. And I feel like that needs to come second. And after the mechanics. After the mechanics and let somebody teach you those things after you've learned the mechanics. I really do believe that you should hire four people who are. Excited about the craft or mm-hmm. You know, wanna do a good job, have a good attitude, and like they're, teachable. I was definitely somebody who really enjoyed the social aspect of it. I loved working. I I didn't complain. I just, I worked all the time. I loved it. And because I didn't really do the whole college thing, although I'm still paying student loans. Um, but, that was my college, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like the friends I made at the brewery I worked at was, are like, I'm still friends with'em to that this day. And it was like, when I learned how to, how to bartend, it was like, oh, we're just throwing you in. you've already worked here for a couple years. Mm-hmm. You've been a food runner, you've been a, you can multitask, but. You're going on on a Friday night. And I, I remember, it was shaking. Yeah. And it's after an hour. I was fine, but I, I remember, like I, I've been here, I know these people. Why am I, like, can't pour a beer? how I learned how to bartend was make it blue, make it pink, blah, blah. I'm like, mm-hmm. What if it's wrong? Like, you can't return shots, Jill. It's fine. Yeah. And you know, you can't, um, so that was, a brewery, so you're not getting. So many drinks. a more forgiving environment. Yeah. For me, starting at a Red Lobster, really, I screwed it up. Sorry. That's does actually like those corporate environments that the training programs are actually great. Like when you see like a Starbucks or a TJ Fridays on somebody's resume, you're like, oh, they've gone through this corporate training. It's good thing sometimes. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, they, they didn't have that back then. Um, but yeah, so I mean, anyways, like I think it was a great, like probably the most influential. Part of my career as far as like creativity and learning about how to make drinks and running a bar and kind of figuring it out. Mm-hmm. Um, but, Jack, asked me to come on board at Dead Rabbit, like only about a year after they opened. And, They were new to New York. They were new to America, and they didn't really have many systems in place. And so it was cool to use what I learned, even just a little bit at, death and Co and, now it's much more mm-hmm. Uh, you know, detailed and everything, but, It was a great experience, but like it, it did. Eight years is a long time to stay somewhere, when you're working long hours and you're in the same building or, relationships change and, Sean and I worked very closely together on the creative side of things. So, we did a lot the social media and we did, the photography and we. Did the books together and all the PR stuff and you know, being an ambassador for the brand and traveling on behalf of the bar and when all that stuff, but, which I think that Rabbit did better than any other bar that I've ever seen. Really? that stuff. Yeah. Uh, People always talk about drinks and the place and the feel of the place, the production stuff was just absolutely amazing. I, and for me, and this is not a shot, I think there are other places that give you the vibe that the dead rabbit can give you. It's at the convivial feel good kind of place. But the stuff that you guys produced between the books and the, the comics and all those other, and that's, that's all Sean graphic things that, that you produced. We're singular. there's nothing like that. Yeah. I mean, I honestly like the storytelling Through everything that, that we did. again, Sean is that visionary. He so much research and everything he does, there's a reason for everything. everything on the wall. There's a reason for, the mosaic on the floor. Mm-hmm. Or that picture is, there's a story behind everything and it's not You need. you don't ha it's not in your face, but it's there if you want it, it to know more. And that's, Hazel and Apple will be that way too. Very much so. before, before we get to Hazel and Apple,'cause I do want, we should start talking more about Hazel and Apple, but just at when you came onto the Dead rep, were you just brought in as a bartender? We were as a manager. What did you start at? I was brought on as a bar manager. and, It is hard, like, and I've done it two ways, like where I've been a bartender that moved into a, a management role, which is very difficult. because then it's like you Oh yeah. It's hard to not be that person. Like they're not gonna listen to me like they were your peers. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And we did it when we opened. You wanna be everybody's buddy, so it was really hard. Yeah. And we were 26, 27 years old when we opened. And, ev everybody on staff was somebody that was a peer of ours. They were 22 to 27 years old as well. And yeah. And it, it was harder to manage and people that you had worked with in other spaces and back, I regret a lot. I would do things a lot differently for sure. Tell us for sure. what would you do? Go ahead. What are some of the things come to mind? Yeah. well, I mean at one point I think they called me the Barback Slayer. and I look at like how. my temper would've got the best of me. Mm-hmm. and not, um, very proud of it. But, drinking on the job, that kind of stuff, like those are things that I wish it was part of a culture. Mm-hmm. that's not professional. And that definitely got me into trouble a few times. Mark and I talked about that at the time. We may have even talked about it on the old radio show. Mm-hmm. I don't recall, but it went from a time, so Mark and I have always worked in a bar where when you make last call, the bartender can pour them shelf, A shift drink. Yeah. Or two, depending on the policy of the house. So we always had to drink afterwards, but never were we allowed to drink behind the bar and never did tell that's not true. When you did the wine class and you brought me a glass of wine of 1976, Roman Conti Osh. And but that's the exception, prove the rule and it was worth breaking the rule. We had one extraordinary bottle of wine once during a wine class, and we got permission to drink it, but we never allowed bartenders to drink and. That was the rule in most places. Mm-hmm. And then for a while, all these craft cocktail bars, people were drinking behind the bar all night long. Half the staffs were of New York, were half in the bag like it was. It was all the cocktail bars all the time. When you say it was the culture, it was the cocktail. It was the culture, but I'm also like a hundred. 15 pounds at that time. I can't keep up with these guys. Well the other thing is it grew up and then it went away. You don't see that anymore? I don't see people drinking behind the bar at all. No. I think it's which is great. I think it's hard because you know, you wanna be able to do it and have that like kind of fun cheers kind of thing. Mm-hmm. But you know, as long as like you just have rules, Yeah. Um, I. We have to decide as like a management team with Apple, it was such what that's gonna be and like, I think it depends on the place, but I think, uh, as far as it goes with that topic, I think it's just be consistent Well, I think that's over now. I think in all the serious bars now it's, you know, it's a profession and part of it being a profession is that, you need to act professionally in the bar. so here you are at the Dead Rabbit, and. Jillian's gonna make a change. Jillian and Sean are gonna go and do Hazel and Apple. Yeah, take us from Water Street in New York to where we are sitting now here in South Carolina with Hazel and Apple under construction. you know, I was saying about eight years is a long time, for, one place, especially if you're not an owner and you have to make that decision. Do I. Wanna stay in this, or, but I was definitely getting burnt out. Mm-hmm. Um, I definitely hit a wall and New York City is not easy, I moved there 24, 25 and just like, literally was just hit the ground like, you know, I really was burning it at both ends. And I, you know, I just was like, not. As productive I as I could be. And I think it was a mutual decision, like on, I was really good at what I did, but at the end of the day, it was like, all right, you need a break. I went on a sabbatical. Mm-hmm. Um, that When was that? Like a day? Um, a day. No, I'm kidding. A day left. Sab. I like that. No, I mean, again, like you find my inner piece. No, no. Okay. There it is. No, but I, I did, you know, I think like we all decided like all. If we wanna move forward as a team, like mm-hmm. Sabbatical might be a good idea. And that was a year sabbatical. But in the, after even a couple months of that, Jack and Sean decided to part ways and Mm-hmm. But Sean and I were gonna do our own thing because we were working together mostly, like it was him and I that did, the PR and the creative stuff. Mm-hmm. And they wanted to move in a different directions. So it all worked out for the best, for everybody. and originally the location here in Charleston was going to be, a dead rabbit. when that partnership broke up, part of that deal or whatever is that we got this space and it was gonna be totally different. And so, we put together the concept of Hazel and apple, and it's a representative of Sean and i's personality, Hazel being Sean and Apple being me. Anybody that knows me even a little bit, knows that I'm obsessed with apples or anything to do with apples. So, so why Hazel? For Sean? in Irish folklore. It is representative of wisdom and storytelling. and with an Apple is representative of rebirth, youth so. And you're actually planting some apple trees in the courtyard, right? sure, yes. We'll see. Last hopefully. Yeah, it might take a while for those to actually be. Fruitful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, and it's, the yin and yang of our personalities and which every good partnership needs. Yes, yes. I promise. Yes. so yeah, we worked really well together and we knew like he's the best at what he does in as far as a visionary and, concept and everything, and, and he believes that I'm good at what I do. So. I shared his belief that you were good at, at what you do. So talk to us about Hazel and Ample and the, what the bar's gonna be like.'cause we are super excited to see it open later this year. so are we, it's definitely, uh, we've gone through some hurdles for sure. we definitely want to have our own identity and set us apart. I think it's really hard to separate yourself. Mm-hmm. When you. Been such a big part of something that's been successful. but when we open, I think people will realize that we are different people. You know, we've had a few years to reflect. And When did you leave Dead Rabbit? now it's been three years. Mm-hmm. Uh, for me. Right. Uh, maybe a little less for Sean it doesn't feel that way. Yeah. It feels like. It was a year ago, you know? Mm-hmm. But, we are both grateful for, even though it's been frustrating for the hurdles that we've, encountered with the bar being pushed back, but. Maybe the universe like it just happened. And, and, we're very grateful for the time and to reflect on, the things that have happened or, to embrace this new lifestyle and understand how we can do things better and be better partners, be better friends. put up some boundaries and not, you know, work 16 hours a day and six days a week, like maybe we used to. Francis aren't doing so well with the boundaries. Yeah. He and I aren't doing so well with the boundaries. Yeah. But because I'm pretty sure he texted me at three 30 this morning and I'm pretty sure that I called him at five this morning, so. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, Sean texted me, sometimes, and he goes, well, I forgot you're five hours behind. I go, uh, no you didn't. No you didn't. No, you did not. I know excuses wearing thin. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So talk to us about, about Hazel and Apple though. So what's it gonna be like, where is it gonna be in Charleston and what's the what, how's it gonna change the Charleston Irish bar landscape? well, first and foremost, it's not gonna be an Irish bar. it's a community tavern. something that we really want the local community to embrace and feel comfortable and be there, not just for special occasions, but to really really have it be part of the community. Mm-hmm. Um. gonna be, well this is your community now, right? Right. This is where you live in this great,'cause you've been here for the last few years. Mm-hmm. It's been cool to learn about Charleston and learn about, meet people and other bar owners, other business owners, and, our food program will be, we'll definitely wanna work with, local vendors and local farms and, be sustainable as possible. but as far as like. The, uh, the concept, if you will. it's not a pub. It's not, it's not a cocktail bar. It's it's a mishmash and we'll be, 1910 to 1920s. it'd be English, Irish, but not in your face. It'd be a beautiful space. have like a diner feel to it. I have seen the renderings, so yeah, it's gonna be a spectacular space. Oh yeah. It's not, it's gonna be nice. Beautiful. you're underselling a little when you say it's gonna be a beautiful space. Yeah, it's gonna be a mishmash. It's, it is a very well thought out. Beautiful space you can feel the velocity of the place. Mm-hmm. when you look at, the deck and the renderings, certainly somebody who has been doing this for a long time, you can feel the motion and the emotion Yeah. Of the place. just by looking at renderings and, and artwork. It's pretty amazing. It's pretty funny. Some people, the renders are so like, so real looking that people like, how's the bar going? Like, and I'm like, I mean, like, that's. I'll let the, I'll let the design guys know, but, uh, we haven't been open. it's gonna be nothing like anything here. we don't wanna be these, you know. People coming in from New York City and we're better than, you know? Mm-hmm. So it's important like that we embrace the community and, you know, we're not, you know, these bullies coming in, that is a thing down here. they don't, they like you to come visit. yes. But, I think that us living here and, you know, through our social media really learning about, Charleston and, investing our time in. getting to know people and other businesses, I think that's been to our advantage. It's, it's good and that's what we wanna do. Uh, we wanna be respected and welcome. So, I dunno that, that's been great. with all this time, you know, we've changed the setup so many times. I think it's it's a totally, not a totally different bar. But, thing a lot of things have changed, because you have that time, oh, if we had just opened when we mm-hmm. Thought we were, we totally different bar. So, which is a good and bad thing. I've never known a bar that opened on time. No, no, no. I've never, I literally have never known a bar that we're like, we're gonna open in September. Oh, it's September. Here we are. Open the bar. Yeah. never known that. We opened on time, our first bar, our second restaurant. Oh, was months and months late. Yeah. We opened on time because we got fired from other jobs and we were running out of money and we had the money. Money. So we're gotta open, gotta paint that. Paint that we gotta open. Yep. Spray paint fine. Well, you know, it's funny what you just said about coming down here and being careful not to be carpet baggers. and I think that's So, is that what you call it? Well, carpet baggers after the Civil War You'd have people come in from the north and take the resources. Yeah, take the, and anyway, so that's private. Someone comes in and says, I'm gonna make this part of the community I just got here, but I'm make the, so, and I think that's really important. and it reminds me a lot of what Sean and Jack did before they opened the dead Rabbit. I remember Sean when they found the spot on Water Street, I mean he sat. On the, across the street, the bus station. Yeah. For hours to just see who was walking by, what the day, what it was like at three o'clock, what it was like at four o'clock, what it was like on Tuesday. That's my next level. I just like, it's like, but that, but, but it's funny. But you moved here, you moved here to do that same thing. I knew I liked Charleston. I also wanted to change. I knew New York City was not healthy for me. Personally, well, you also left New York City at a very difficult time for New York City, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we're in the middle of Covid. People's manners disappeared for a little while. It's really hard. Yeah. And everybody had time to think about how they envision their future. Like, it just really made people like look at their life and say, okay, I need to make a change or whatever. So this opportunity. Was great for me and, um, for Sean to believe in me for us to take this risk and leave and for him to, uh, sell his shares at Dead Rabbit and for us to do something together was, it was huge. And so I'm thankful for that. I think you guys make a perfect team. So that's, one little voice in the Yeah. In the wind. But I think you guys make a perfect Yeah, We are good together as far as like creative goes. And we're learning, we know what we're good at. we know what we're not, we are not good at. Mm-hmm. And so we're, we're taking this time to, learn about the things that we. We don't know about running, running a bar. Mm-hmm. learning about HR and learning about, for me, different systems and, especially'cause we haven't ran a bar in a few years. Mm-hmm. There's all this new, technology and everything. And so making sure that we are just, I. Opening this bar with the best possible systems and, and programs and, well, you're also in a different state with different laws. Yeah. Believe be, it's hard to navigate and all that stuff. But I will tell you the spot you are in right now, the, the moment of time you're in right now was some of the most fun. And some of the stuff I hated more than anything else. In opening bars. In opening the bars.'cause right now, and this is happening at Hazel and Apple, you are not in total control of your timeline. It sucks. Right? you have no Right. It's construction people, architects, city officials, investors. Investors. Yeah. and so, and you're just powerless. Whereas when the bar's up and running I, I could steer the ship, when the engines aren't going yet, I can't steer the ship. So yeah, it's totally been a hard thing. Like, Sean and I both have a personality that we do like to be in control a little bit. Yeah. Which is, people maybe don't maybe love that. Those traits put us, but uh, once the bar is open, like then we can kind of do do our thing. That's what we're good at, but we're, we've kind of been thrown into this just very, I just very. Awkward, just, yeah, it's hurry up and wait. I know. and it's not a place where you can just pull harder and things will happen faster, right? Yeah. Right. You're not, that's not the stage you're in right now. The city of official says the permit's gonna take three weeks, but it takes five. He's a city official. That's it. There's nothing you can do about it. Yeah. I'm walking by the city official building and there's never anybody there. I'm like, They really like it when you yell at them. Yeah. Yeah. it always speeds. Speed things up. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yelling is not, not, it's not great. So a larger question, what do you think is gonna be, because I think you raised a really good point about getting outta New York and coming to a different place in a different state, mark, you said as well. But what do you think is gonna be different in your life, in your psyche, in your emotional state? What's gonna be different about being a, managing a bar that you're a partner in down here? I. As opposed to a New York City, because I think it's very, I'm hoping it's a more civilized life down here maybe. What is the difference? you have a feel for what that's gonna be like? Yeah, I think, um. having a comfortable home, having a car, like I live six minutes from the bar, and, um, being able to, when you're, in New York, you're like, okay, you're at the bar and you're there until you go home. Like here it's like, okay, I can go to lunch or I can pop out. You. It's a, it's just different. The hours on his lates. Sean and I know what what we didn't like about our lifestyle in New York. I think we really are gonna work hard that we have a balance of that we're not together all the time. Like, he's gonna be there in the day, dealing with maintenance and kind of operations. And I'll be there more, during service. And then, having other people, that are, management or ma d and having like, Supervisors and things that are trained the first year is mm-hmm. You know, we, you gotta be there. It just, that, that's just it. but the 33rd year, you still have to be there. Yeah. I, I know that. I know, but like, I think, one of my problems, I think I had I always had to be. Again into control. Mm-hmm. Yeah. burning yourself out or not doing anything very well because you have too much, or saying yes to too many things has been a big downfall for me. Mm-hmm. So like just. Understanding that and knowing that people wanna work, they wanna do a good job, and hiring the right people and investing in people. having a great education program and, giving people opportunities only helps you know yourself. but them, and, it's, that is what I wanna achieve and like just create a great community and a great working environment. And it's something that, because I have more control over that and to do things a little bit more. How I see it, is what I'm really looking forward to. so I think New York also tends to. Wind you up. Right? Like New York. New York. Everything is frenetic, everything is, winds you up. And here it strikes me as a little more, uh, boxing. Yeah. I mean, it, it is frustrating a little bit'cause you have to adapt to the pace. I'm on the sidewalk being like, hurry up, you know, you, I'm, I'm the zigzag one and. wearing, you know, combat boots and all black, In Charleston, but, like, oh, that's girls from New York. But you know, I, you know, sometimes you're like, Hey, take a beat. but, you know, I also don't wanna like, just succumb to it. I'm not gonna be like, oh, well that's just acceptable. I think that we're never gonna be that. there's a lot of people that are really, are eager to work with us, and I look forward to giving them the opportunity to like. to get more educated in the bar world and in spirits and all that kind of stuff. I am still surprised. We were in Philly last night. And obviously we, and I am still surprised compared to New York, even Philly's slower. everything happens in Philly a little bit more slowly than it happens. New York winds you up, man, winds you up in New York, there's nothing like the New York market. There's nothing like it. Ready, set, go. And you're sprinting. And then, what's that? It's the sun. It just came up. Yeah. Right. That's, that's how it works. It's I go to New York now actually quite often for, another business I work with and I'm like, I need to sleep for like a whole day and a half. I'm like, I'm like, how did I live here for 12 years? I'm exhausted. this is crazy. you get used to it, but that it's like that sensory overload. oh, we know. Yeah. Hey, listen, I want take a, I wanna take a, we'll take a quick break and come back on the other side because I wanna talk about some of your other ventures, We have an Irish whiskey that you're involved in that we're gonna talk about. Yep. and, uh, we're also gonna drink some of that Irish whiskey. So, yeah, I've already taken a couple sips. I'm, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm like, oh my God. Like, I'm getting like, like dry mouth talking some stuff myself. See, that's why I got the glass of water for the somebody for the before and then the whiskey for after. Somebody once told us that, when they're around us, they just drink more. I'm like, yeah, that's why I got in this room. I. You definitely make me wanna drink more. Exactly. Typically my mother said the same thing though, and I think she meant it in a different way. Listen, we'll be back in just a moment. When you're listening to the restaurant guys, you can always find out more@restaurantguyspodcast.com. So we're back with Jillian and we're gonna talk about some whiskey that you are, involved with. you gotta let us know what's going on here. This is not available in the United States yet. Unfortunately it is not. But tell us all about it. it's called Out Walker and. Been working on it for actually a few years now. Sean and I are both involved, alongside, uh, some other, partners that are, uh, UK based. Mm-hmm. Um, where's it distilled? When did, when did you start making it? So, I didn't distill this So Adrian McLaughlin, uh, was the, general manager at the Merchant Hotel when Sean was there. Darren Cave, he, was a rugby player. they had some business, ventures together they're like, well, we should make a whiskey, so who else to call? But Sean, and that was kinda how it started. And usually things like that happen and it never, never comes to fruit. Right, right. Fruition, you know, I was like, yeah, okay. so we kind of didn't know, but yeah, sure. Fine. so, we got, we have ownership equity and everything. Just by, you know, using our network and helping build the brand. And I created the Blend and a great northern distillery, which is in oc it's not quite to Belfast, but it's like north of the, uh, Dublin airport. it, it was a really insane like learning experience for me. Uhhuh, I'm well known for. Mixology, I hate that word. Right. But, um, you know, for cocktail creation. And so we knew that we had to make a whiskey that was mixable versatile. But at the same time, you know, I, I didn't wanna lose my street cred. You know, I, I can't, can't, I can't be having like, you know, whiskey experts be like, oh, like this is shit, I didn't wanna embarrass myself. So I, I really had to make something that was unique and versatile and affordable. I know as a. Somebody who's been a buyer for, for bars over the years that, you have to, you can't buy things over a certain price point, so, right, right. That was the goal. well, you certainly can't be using it in the cocktails, right. Unless you're gonna charge 30, 40, 50 for a cocktail. Right. Still can do, but we've been doing a lot of talking and it's made me very thirsty. So, I'm sorry. Sample this. I, I actually began sipping when Jillian said it was okay, UNC, Uncharacteristic of me. I've been showing some restraints. So the, it's a. It's a very pretty whiskey. Very, I can say you could make this in a cocktail. Beautiful. Absolutely. so this is a blend. It's, 40% green whiskey aged in, rye, Cass, so Oh, yeah. Which is unique. And that's Little spice. Little spicy. Yeah. Little spicy. Sure. And, uh, the, another 40% green whiskey, Asian virgin American Oak. So that's giving, oh yeah. The vanilla, you know, vanilla, yeah. High spice. as well as the kind of different spice from the rye. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then it's 10% pot still aged in Roso, so it's giving you traditional, I get all that and it's delicious. It's not shiny. Then my favorite part, my favorite part is the 10% single mal Asian white burger. No. So that really shut off, manipulates all the other components and gives it this cool minerality and just, I don't know, it just, I feel that it just manipulates everything else into this, like tweaks it into something a little different than it traditionally is. So it's out Walker, Irish whiskey. Blended Irish whiskey. Yep. When is it gonna be available in the United States ever? we would love that. Obviously. the United States is one of the biggest, consumers of Irish whiskey. Mm-hmm. Easier said than done, finding a distributor, finding investment. most of the guys who are spearheading it, that are in the uk, Sean and I are here. but the guys, they're doing a great job. And, we are in Germany, Sweden, Denmark, uk, and Ireland. And so I've been able to go over there and do some fun stuff. So if anybody's heard, you need to bring me back a bottle in a suitcase. Yeah. If you're the going there, bring one for me. Yeah. We, have, we have a lot of, in. International listeners. And so out Walker, the Restless Spirit, blended Irish whiskey. Mm-hmm. You're coming back to New Jersey. Or you're coming to Jersey. This is what you stick in your suitcase. Mm-hmm. And then we have to mention that you are involved in a beverage brand and a non-alcoholic beverage brand that we actually carry in the restaurant. So tell us about Badger. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, so Badger Bev's, it's a startup. David Vogel, who's the CEO, David started this and he he saw a, a kinda a hole in the market. I was, uh, introduced to David, you know, he's like, oh, you have Jillian's the person to talk to as far as bar stuff goes. So, you know, he sent me a bunch of products. I jumped on a Zoom with him, tried the products. made some cocktails with it actually on the Zoom and you know, I just, the proof is in the juice. it was some of the best. non-alcoholic. Mm-hmm. You know, mixers I've ever tasted and I love the tonic. Yeah. It was definitely more approachable to an American palate. not as bitter, not as quinine. And I think it's much more mixable with Lighter American style gins as well. It's also got some nice snap to it, right? Yeah. It's got some good carbonation. that's one of the problems that we have Yep. With a lot of tonics is Right. is they just don't have the right bubble structure. Yeah. Right. And that was my biggest issue as a buyer, you know, I was like, nothing stays bubbly enough and, you know, a hundred percent correct. It's so annoying. So this actually. Has the highest PSI of, I think anything else on the market. And it's regulated, so it's between four and 4.5 total sense, PSI. it's also domestic. it's the water source and the bottling happens in Pennsylvania. And so that's something else we pride. So it's the PSI and that it's a, an American product and we are already nationwide distributed through Chef's warehouse and so. That's been really cool to see it grow. So we've fallen in and out of love with several tonics over the years. Mm-hmm. And we've fallen in love with tonics that then change their formula and change their over time. I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about, right. So yeah. One day you pop a bottle and you're like, well they, that's not right. They got a big investor and they're like, well, then you f it up. Right. Anyway, but this is, I do think this is the best tonic on the market. I like a significant amount of Quin. I know. It's not really bitter. the PSI is super important and if you want a bar out there, there's. You know, there's a way to serve a, a gin and tonic, right? Your soda out of the gun will lose its bubbles immediately. it's gonna be flat. If you want to serve a gin and tonic like the Spanish way, I love it. Charge a dollar more, charge it$2 more. Yeah. And serve the little bottle. Right next to it, port in front of the customer and leave the bottle there in front of them. If you want to make it feel like they're getting that extra dollars worth, makes a totally different, experience. I would never be involved with something I didn't really believe in, and anybody that knows you would be like, Jillian, was it Na product? What? You know? So I really, really, let's call it a mixer. Yeah, sorry. No, it is, it's, it is a mixer and you know, I just love that this has been. Probably one of the highlights of my career is working with this group of people. we are just silly and have fun, and they're so professional. I've learned a lot about a different, you have a new highlight now that you've been on the restaurant guys, right? Yeah, Yeah, yeah. This is a pinnacle of your space. Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. This is, this is top, top, top, top. Um, but it's been, you know, a highlight of my career is working with these people and learning a different, part of the industry and the NAA sector is really hard. So yeah, we are going to be evolved and have more options. Mm-hmm. you know, you have to kind of adapt to what people want. But knowing that this is the best version of our product is gonna be the badger comes in 250 milliliter bottles, which are the way to do it. And the way I love to get bar service is like they would do in the old hotels. you open the bottle so that it's all, the snap is in there and you pour it in front of the guest and the snap stays there a through your drink. Yeah. And I love that. It's it's, the bubbles are like, it's not champagne bubbles, but they're not like, you know, when you drink, like a parer or something. The bigger bubbles, it's drinking water. Right? They're not gonna do well in a, in a high ball. But here it's it's kind of of like that medium bubble and it stays fizzy. so wait, and we have gone all the way in Geek Town, we came from New York to Charleston, to Geek Town with Jillian goes, sorry. No. And Jillian, nobody. We'd rather have on the bus with us in Geek Town than you. Uh, it's been a tremendous, conversation. Thanks for having us into your home. Yeah, of course. It's been great. It's been terrific. Yeah. Thanks for using coasters a hundred percent. and we are looking forward to the opening of, a Hazel and Apple, and we'll keep you all informed about that. Yeah, yeah. You guys will be the first to know in Hazel and Apple upwards. Yay. I am France. She's Gillian vs. I'm Julian. Wait, am I Francis? No, you're Julian. V Oh, it's okay. She's Gillian Vase. I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We're the restaurant guys. Find out more@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Bye.