The Restaurant Guys

Marcus Samuelsson on The Soul of a New Cuisine

• The Restaurant Guys • Episode 92

Share episode

This is a Vintage Selection from 2007

The Banter

The Guys talk about restaurants being an integral part of emerging downtowns and about a yogurt shop that needs a bouncer.

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys host Marcus Sammuelson to talk about cuisines all over the world, particularly the regions of Africa. He wants to open people’s eyes to the delicious flavors of African cuisine and expresses interest in opening an African restaurant someday. This dream finally happened in 2024!

The Inside Track

The Guys and Marcus discuss the uniqueness of the restaurant business and the power of food to communicate. 


“Food is an incredible thing! Through food, people can see your passion and your culture. You can teach people where you're from and what you believe in, which not every business can really do,” Marcus Sammuelson on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2007


Bio

Marcus Samuelsson is the chef behind many restaurants worldwide, including Red Rooster Harlem and Red Rooster Overtown in Miami; Hav & Mar in the Chelsea Arts District; Metropolis at the Perelman Performing Arts Center in lower Manhattan; “Marcus” restaurants in Atlanta and New Jersey, plus several international locations. His latest venture, Marcus DC debuts Spring 2025 at The Morrow in Washington DC. 

In 2023, Marcus earned an Emmy Award for the Short Form Program “My Mark.” He is a longstanding judge and TV personality on the hit Food Network show Chopped, head judge of Top Chef: Family Style, and an Iron Chef on Netflix’s rebooted Iron Chef: Quest for an Iron Legend, and makes frequent appearances on Scandinavian TV. He is the author of multiple books including The New York Times bestseller Yes, Chef: A Memoir as well as the critically acclaimed The Rise: Black Cooks and the Soul of American Food.

Samuelsson is co-chair of Careers through Culinary Arts Program (C-CAP), which focuses on helping underserved youth. 

Samuelsson was the young

On Friday, June 27 Come see The Restaurant Guys LIVE with Chef Andrew Zimmern at the New Brunswick Performing Arts Center in New Brunswick, NJ. VIP tickets include a Meet & Greet After-Party with Andrew. Restaurant Guys Regulars get a discount so subscribe https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe Tickets https://www.restaurantguyspodcast.com/

Our Sponsors

The Heldrich Hotel & Conference Center
https://www.theheldrich.com/

Magyar Bank
https://www.magbank.com/

Withum Accounting
https://www.withum.com/

Our Places

Stage Left Steak
https://www.stageleft.com/

Catherine Lombardi Restaurant
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/

Stage Left Wineshop
https://www.stageleftwineshop.com/


To hear more about food, wine and the finer things in life:
https://www.instagram.com/restaurantguyspodcast/
https://www.facebook.com/restaurantguys

Reach Out to The Guys!
TheGuys@restaurantguyspodcast.com

**Become a Restaurant Guys Regular and get two bonus episodes per month, bonus content and Regulars Only events.**
Click Below!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe

Mark:

Morning, mark. Hey Francis. How are you? I'm fine. How are you this morning? I'm doing great. I'm glad I'm not doing the first, uh, little segment here by myself. Yeah.

Francis:

Got a little stuck on the, uh, nor Bay extension on the way in today, but I made it.

Mark:

Yeah, sure did. Um, just barely You're a little ruffled.

Francis:

Yeah. I'm glad I made it today so that you didn't have to be the restaurant guy on the show. You know, last night I talked to a reporter from New Jersey Monthly Magazine mm-hmm. Who interviewed me about a very interesting topic. Um, they wanted to hear our take, on downtowns in New Jersey, on urban centers in New Jersey.

Mark:

Sure. We both lived in New Brunswick for a long time. You even longer than I. Uh, and we owned a, we've owned a restaurant in, in a downtown urban area for 15 years.

Francis:

Well, I mean, that was the hook. I mean, I think he, what he wanted, uh, to talk to. And, you know, I live in Jersey City. I'm from Orange. My dad was the Orange Fire Chief. Mm-hmm. I lived in New Brunswick. You lived in New Brunswick. But I think what he really wanted to talk about was our experience owning a business in town as a town changed. I mean, we've been, had our business in town for 15 years. We've been working in town for 20 years. And uh, it was very interesting. I wound up talking to this guy and realizing just how much it has changed. Oh, oh, it's

Mark:

changed tremend. New Brunswick a lot of our listeners have known New Brunswick for a long time, but some of you are, are relatively recent to the area, but the tremendous, tremendous strides that New Brunswick has made and changes to the, to the neighborhoods. I, one of the things I tell my customers all the time where my restaurant is right now, state theaters a 3000. Seat Event Theater. George Street Playhouse, one of the best playhouses, regional playhouses in, in the country. Crossroads Theater, now is, operating as a, as a rental concert venue, uh, concert venue or, or rental, 400 seats rental event. Um, if you told me I was gonna open a restaurant on this block when I came to college in 1983. I would've laughed in your face. You said, I don't walk there after dark. Yeah. I forget it. I don't, me and six of my friends don't walk there after dark. Now you can't afford a condo across the street. Yeah. And now a condo, condos across the street are gone for over a million dollars.

Francis:

But one of the things that we didn't talk about was that, that we had seen over time is how restaurants and bars and liquor license establishments affect a neighborhood. Mm-hmm. one of the things that that is very interesting is, is New Brunswick, like any city has. different neighborhoods that have different character to them Local taverns in a residential neighborhood, I think really can add to a neighborhood. But they've got, you've gotta watch them very closely and the owners need to be very responsible.

Mark:

It depends on what kind of local tavern and there, I mean, we've, again, you lived, uh, you know, on Hartwell Street for a number of years in,

Francis:

well, and that was near, that was near a local tavern that had become a real college bar. Mm-hmm. Uh, hangout. That was actually a place called the Plum Street Pub that was run irresponsibly. It was shut down by the city a couple times, or fined by the city a couple times at the very least. They used to dump, you know, 200 drunk people on the street every night at closing time, and it was really disruptive at 3:00 AM okay?

Mark:

Remember closing time in New Brunswick was 3:00 AM so by the time you got everybody out, it's 3:30 AM

Francis:

Now there are a lot of other local bars who take great pains to try and be a, a good neighbor. Like there's another place, little place called the Ellen, which pub and a residential corner in. They take great pains, uh, because they know that the influx of people into a residential neighborhood. And if they become parking issues, if they become too popular, they can become a victim of their own success.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Francis:

Because then they can impinge upon the neighbors. But what I always thought was very interesting was in downtown New Brunswick, where years ago I. Pretty much no one lived. Mm-hmm. Um, the, the

Mark:

right, it was just when Francis says no one lived, it was stores and, and shop theaters and bars and restaurants, theaters and bars and restaurants. And, and there wasn't a, there wasn't really a populace that, that lived and slept in that area of

Francis:

town. And, and one of the ways and what that needed downtown mm-hmm. And what the, the powers that be and the, the local board of directors realized, of the New Brunswick City market, which is the improvement district downtown, was that. Just what was maybe not so helpful to have a lot of people clamoring for places to go in the residential neighborhoods where the bar was next to a house and the parking was on the street and maybe blocking someone's driveway was exactly what was needed downtown. Mm-hmm. And that sort of. Led to the attitude that fostered the restaurant Renaissance in downtown New Brunswick. And well, what happened? You put people on the streets at night until late at night, during the day, in the afternoon. You made it a safe place to walk and a safe place to be. And what do you have?$800 million worth of luxury housing that's gone up in downtown New Brunswick in last I, it's

Mark:

actually a little bit more than that right now.

Francis:

I mean, plus you've got a brand new conference center that's about to open, and New Brunswick is known as a restaurant mecca, and that that includes. Fine restaurants and brew pubs and bars and taverns and, and a place to walk around. And that, to me, that speaks to a restaurant being a locus of community. But I think the point is that it depends on the bar and it depends on the neighborhood, but a restaurant and a bar, um, has an impact on a community and that can be a good impact and that can be a bad impact.

Mark:

Well. You know, there's a, there's actually an article on the front of the Times today in the, in the food section. Uh, it doesn't necessarily have to be a restaurant or a bar to have an impact on a community like that. One of, one of the places that, that they're talking about in the, in the Times today is the yogurt place in West Hollywood. It's a yogurt place in West Hollywood. And this place has become so popular that cars are double parking and sometimes the lines as much as an hour. Cars are double parking for an hour to in order while they stand online. People are, there's this huge influx of people, and the people who live around it are, are actually trying to get this yogurt place shut down. It's a yogurt place. Okay? We're no longer talking about a bar. We're no longer talking about three 30 in the morning.

Francis:

It's called, it's called pink berries, right? Ah-huh. And you wanna know the irony of it. The owners, when they went to open the yogurt place, had originally tried to open a bar, but because the neighbors had such concerns, uhhuh, they didn't get their liquor license right. And so they changed ideas and opened the yogurt place.

Mark:

And the yogurt place is more popular probably than the bar ever would've been.

Francis:

So the city council has now shortened their evening hours and they're trying to work at a compromise, but they literally have guards outside to control the crowds, and they have staff go and pick up the Pinkberry cups from the neighbor's lawn. I can only wish for such success. I can only wish for such success, maybe in the near future. But you know, I, I do think it's interesting because we were talking about Jersey City. We were talking about downtown New Bruns. We were talking about different downtowns. And in this day and age, um, look, there aren't many factory towns anymore. And so, um,

Mark:

factory cities

Francis:

really, or factory cities that, or, or factory towns. There aren't places where, you know, at least in New Jersey where, um, the economy is driven by manufacturing and many, what do all the revitalized cities in New Jersey have in common? I. Restaurants, what is Newark? Trying desperately to get? Mm-hmm. More restaurants. Better restaurants, because it brings people out and provides a center of community there have

Mark:

been a number of cities who've contact us to, say, listen, do you want to come and open a restaurant in our city? We'll, we'll help you do that.

Francis:

There was actually one city that, that they brought us in. They showed us around and they're like, okay, we'll, we'll condemn any building you want and put a restaurant in it. And we were like, no, none. None of these, none of these, this city calls in a few years. When we come back, we're gonna be talking with Marcus Samuelson, a chef and author, who you've certainly heard of. And, uh, he's gonna join us to talk about his new book in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, Hello everybody and welcome back. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, mark and Francis of Stage Left, and Catherine Lombardi. Restaurants in downtown, new Brunswick, New Jersey. And our guest today is Marcus Samuelson. Marcus is chef and co-owner of Aquavit, new York's Premier Scandinavian restaurant. And culinary director of Ringo, an American Japanese fusion restaurant. He was the youngest chef ever to receive three stars from the New York Times, and he was named Best Chef of New York City by the James Beard Foundation in 1999. He joins us today, to discuss his new book, the Soul of A New Cuisine, A Discovery of The Foods and Flavors of Africa.

Mark:

Chef Marcus Samuelson, welcome to the show.

Marcus:

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Francis:

Oh, it's a pleasure to have you. I've actually eaten your food. I was at Ringo actually. We met several years ago through Anthony Gilio. At your place? Ringo, when we had a tremendous meal. Thank this new book, the Soul of A New Cuisine. Let's start with the title. I mean, Africa's not a new place. It's a very old, continent with a lot of different cultures and, and a lot of ancient cuisine. Why did you call it the soul of a new cuisine?

Marcus:

Well, I mean, I think it is, not new for, people from the continent, but the newness really becomes when you, as we here as American, start to use African ingredients and maybe we pair it with our own favorite dishes that we already have. So maybe you do an African side, maybe you do a, an African rub on your next chicken dish, so therefore it becomes a new meal, you know, new creation. And the other thing that happened that I want to do with the book is also fellow Africans. Don't look at each other's country and borrow from each other. You know, uh, a German family might cook Italian food three days a week. Uh, because Germans, they vacation in Italy a lot and so on, right. And trade and so on with Italy. Uh, a Moroccan family is not cooking Ethiopian meal two days a week. Ethiopian family is not looking to and trying to cook a Nigerian meal two days a week. So, you know, it's, it's, I'm also. Talking to fellow Africans about what's going on, about food in other fellow African countries.

Mark:

So the countries are more isolated from one another.

Marcus:

Well, I wouldn't say even, not geographically, but Yeah, exactly. So much of this has to do with obviously large middle class tourism. Mm-hmm. Vacationing, how do we know about food? You know, how do we know about Italian food? Yes. Through history, but also by going to Italy.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Marcus:

And how do we know about French food by traveling, visiting there. So. It's not new at all, but it's, it's a part of the world that we, for whatever reason, uh, haven't acknowledged and brought in in the food family the way we have, acknowledged and brought in, uh, the rest of the world yet doesn't mean it won't happen. Just, it took us a long time to embrace the whole Asian, uh, community and it took a long time. To embrace the Latin in American community. it didn't mean that that was new food when, when Douglas brought it to, to us, you know?

Mark:

Well, one of the things you talk about in, in the book, and, I think a lot of people who are in the, in the food business realizes how differently people in the rest of the world eat from Americans, although a lot of them are getting closer and closer to the way we eat, probably, unfortunately. But how really different it is in Africa and how, how plate composition and. In African food is very different than it is here in America. Can you, can you just talk a little bit about that?

Marcus:

Well, I mean, you know, we, and I'll say that we don't have it figured out here either. You know, I think, uh, the way people eat in Africa is very encouraging. You know, people have much less economy, but they eat probably better than we do. Yeah. They know organic without thinking about it. They always eat together, you know, there's no grandmother or there's no child eating by themselves.

Speaker 4:

You know, there's

Marcus:

people eating together all the time. Um, there is, um, when you embrace the totality of cooking, which means starting by buying stuff at the market. Maybe even the slaughtering part, maybe even the slow bracing, the long cooking. So it's just not the eating part that is important. The whole, uh, the whole ritual by, by, by eating where, where cooking, where eating is one aspect. So, you know, there, there is so much we can learn and look at other cultures and learn. How can we bring this thing home here?

Francis:

Well, you know, let's, let's tell our listeners, they may not all be familiar with you, mark Marcus. You were, you were born Ethiopian, and then adopted and raised Swedish. Came to New York and opened, um, a Scandinavian and then a Japanese restaurant. You've got quite a breadth of culinary, uh, traditions and experience. How did you come to African cuisine yourself?

Marcus:

Well, you know, being born in Ethiopia, I, I always, I think, uh, felt, um, that why isn't there? Uh, enough knowledge about this cuisine casino. If I go to Barn Nobles or any great, not just Barn Noble, but any great store bookstore, and I find 400 titles about Tuscany, which 5,000 people lives in Tuscany.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Marcus:

And I find two titles about the continent of Africa, or if any mm-hmm. You know. The Miseducation has to stop somewhere. You know, we have to also give tools for people to enjoy Africa with a different sense than just, or aids and famine that Africa needs help all the time.

Francis:

When we come back, we're gonna talk more with Marcus Samuelson about his new and beautiful book about some of the foods of Africa and, and some foods, uh, of Africa that you can find here in the United States. You know, Marcus, we had opened in New Brunswick about 10 years ago. A Nigerian friend of ours, a guy we went to college with, opened, an Ethiopian restaurant right around the corner from us. Mm-hmm. And it's called Maketa and it's wonderful. Really a great place. And, and we go there for lunch, often when we went have a meeting outside restaurant when we, a meeting outside of our own restaurant. Yeah. Um, One of the things that I love about Ethiopian cuisine is the, in Jira. Yeah. Can you talk about bread and African cuisine in general and the place and in Jira specifically,

Marcus:

you know, uh, the staple dishes is probably what, what changes. Africa is both different in Africa from each country to country. You know, you have K cuisine Morocco and something called pop in South Africa, which is like a polenta. And then you have fufu, which is like a mashed red root vegetable puree. And in Ethiopia, the staple becomes bread, you know, which is the only country that has that. But it comes this teff, it's made with a grain called teff, one of the oldest grains in the world. And it's a sourdough pancake that you sort of it takes, if you make a traditional three days to do the sour off starter, and then, you cook it on one side only. That's how, it's why it's so porous and, and soft and, um, becomes like almost like a thick pancake bag that you just sort of pour out on the, on the skillet and it. Probably every meal in Ethiopia food. Mm-hmm. It's, uh, something that you, you know, you pick up the food you stew with and, uh, it's very, I mean, Ethiopian food, I think the popularity of it is because one is very cheap. Uh, you know, you can do it together as a group and don't get killed by it. You know, you know what I mean?

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm. Of course. And also,

Marcus:

I think the flavors are incredible because the spicy berry spice. The in jaraba then takes off the heat.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm. With the

Marcus:

sour, it, it's already somebody thought about the cuisine, like, uh, and, and when something takes off the heat, which, um, so it's very sophisticated, although it might not look like that on the outset.

Francis:

Well now and, and Ethiopia of them.'cause then you use the bread to, to pick up the food rather than utensils. It's actually your utensil. Yes.

Marcus:

It's the

Francis:

utensil. it's funny, when we go into the, into Makeda, they'll offer new people. They'll say, do you want a fork? You know, I die with my friend Oby, who's Nigerian. But I, I think every time that you and I go and have lunch, I think, you know. We probably look very unsophisticated to Ethiopians who really know how to do this without making a mess. Do we? Is there a technique?

Marcus:

Well, you know, I, I, I try to not take too many, too big pieces, you know what I mean? Uhhuh, you don't rip off too much bread and try to stuff yourself. you know, if you, if you stay with sort of, you can hold it, uh, small, you know, not, not bigger than, uh, quarter size. We call, uh, uh, ping pong size, both pockets at the time. I think you're fine. Uh, but, um. I still get messy. I'm from Ethiopia.

Francis:

You've made me feel a lot more secure about myself, Marcus. Thank you. Well, when we come back after the news, we're gonna talk more with Marcus Emon about his book. We're gonna link you as to how to buy it on our website, You're listening to the Restaurant Guys,

Mark:

Our guest today is

Francis:

Marcus Samuelson. He is chef and co-owner of Aquavit and Culinary director of Restaurant Ringo in New York City. He's also an author and a TV personality. His new book is The Soul of A New Cuisine and Discovery of The Foods and Flavors of Africa.

Mark:

You know, Marcus, Francis and I had the, good fortune on this past Monday night, do a fundraiser for a local family. Able to to raise about$40,000. Oh wow. Great. For, for them to, take care of their child. And they have a child who can't eat, any food and has a very rare disorder. Um, but you are the, uh, US spokesman for unicef. Pretty big organization, pretty big responsibility. What role? Slash responsibility do you think restaurants and, and our community has in these charitable endeavors?

Marcus:

Well, I think it's a hard one'cause I think restaurants is one of the communities that does the most for charities, you know, and, um, yet restaurants, if you look at them, they can be big businesses, but, uh, most of them are actually small. Um. mom and pop stores mm-hmm. For versions of that. So we, I think you look at percentage what we do versus, you know, corporate America. I think we do a lot.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Marcus:

But I think each restaurant should just look into, I mean, you can do everything right. And both, you know, all of us, we get more requests than we possibly can do. So I, of course, I stick with the ones that I stick with. Unicef, you know, I was an orphanage myself. Mm-hmm. You know, and, uh, so it's very hard, close to the heart to meet, but I feel UNICEF's work in Africa, what to do and all over the world.

Speaker 4:

I also

Marcus:

stick with CCAP, which is, you know, teaching inner inner city kids, uh, about cooking and about our field, and encourage them that when you grow up, you can be a chef and this is our field, or you can be a restaurant manager. And, and it's, it's a, it's a craft and it's a regular job, you know, because I don't think.

Francis:

CA does great stuff. We had Richard Groman on our show. Yeah, I

Marcus:

know Richard. For me, it's an incredible individual and, and you can find out,

Francis:

you can find out more about CCAP by going to, going to restaurant guys radio.com.

Marcus:

so I think it's really up to each. Team, each individual restaurant to say, Hey man, we, we gonna do two things that we believe in year, and then we maybe want to do one or two, one-offs that we, we can also support. Or like you guys just stepped up into this world, obviously a friend in your community and, and you should just look at what you can do yourself. But, uh, food is an incredible thing that

Speaker 4:

through

Marcus:

food, people can see, uh, your passion and your culture, and you can teach people where you're from and what you believe in, which not every business can really do. Mm-hmm. Some businesses just write the check, you know, and that's that,

Francis:

you know, you know what's funny is I also think that like, it's like you said, restaurant businesses, especially in the east coast and the West coast, and especially in the fine dining end. It's sort of the last bastion of mom and pop business. It's while there are corporate restaurants, certainly the, the best restaurants and even the most cherished casual restaurants in most communities are these local restaurants. And it's that you know their own. When, when a, a small business is owned by a man or a woman, or a couple, You, you feel more of a responsibility to take part in the community. You know, it's a absolutely, it's a person to person thing. But talk to us about unicef. When I was a kid, when Mark and I were kids going out trick or treating on Halloween, we had our little orange UNICEF boxes and collected our dimes and quarters and, and pooled them all together. And the teacher told us

Mark:

when we were kids, when we were kids, it was a lot of pennies. Yeah, a

Marcus:

lot of pennies. Yeah. But you know, that, that, that is, uh, that's an incredible, you know, the whole. You know, Dan Kay and doing all that, that started, I got involved with UNICEF as a kid the same way in Sweden, you know? Mm-hmm. So it's a worldwide thing and it happens, you know, with unicef I do a lot of different things. I've done everything from cooking classes in Africa, working with, uh, farmers in Africa. How can they take care of their soil? How can they grow potatoes all year round and stuff like that. Both is showing a lot of young boys how to cook.'cause a lot of places in Africa, people, men don't know how to cook and men are not taught, boys are not taught how to cook. So, and, and it can be something that we do doing here now in New York, called the Tap Project where we really. Just for a day, we're gonna charge our customers$1 per glass of water per regular tap water, and it's gonna go to UNICEF Fund for finding clear water for a lot of kids. You know,

Francis:

you know, I think that, one of the other reasons that, that we get involved and that restaurants get involved and that people are also more inclined to participate in a restaurant. Fundraiser is, it's that when you are eating, you know, and when we're, nourishing ourselves and realizing, especially in our, in wealthy countries, the great abundance that we have and the many choices that we have, and that our kids are nourished, you know, at that moment I am probably most likely to reach into my, my wallet and pull out 10 bucks for somebody. If you ask me at that moment, you know, Hey, say, hey, somebody's hungry somewhere. Can we, can we get a little for them? I, I think, I think there's a real connection between. Feeding people and eating. Yeah. And, and then feeding people who need, who need some help. Yeah.

Mark:

But Mark Marcus, I think you've hit on something great here in, in that each of us should find something that's close to your heart. Find something that touches you as it's,

Marcus:

you know.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Marcus:

And, and, through cooking through. Through our field, through taking kids in your community to the local market and showing, you know, what's the different between organic food and, and, and other food and just eating it right could be the smallest thing. It doesn't have to be made your made your stuff, you know?'cause you, you guess what? You did change those five 10 Kids Day and insights on food, uh, for that afternoon. And probably they were gonna go home to their parents and say, Hey man, why are we, you know. What can we get, what can we do? You know,

Francis:

well talk to us then about careers through culinary arts program where you're on the board of directors, but the program overall takes thousands of at-risk kids and puts them in a serious culinary program.

Marcus:

Yeah. I felt like, uh, uh, with, with Richards program, you know, it's not just a New York, you started in New York, but it's not just in New Yorkish. It's all over America. And Richard's done a great job of. Putting across America and you know, when you're 16, 17, you are at risk for a lot of different, especially in the city kids. And cooking is, is very much like being in a, in a positive group, in a positive gang, so to speak. You know, you're in the kitchen, you're working with a little bit older guys. Uh, it's a high paced energy. You gotta behave, you gotta show up on time. And guess what? You gotta be a good team player, otherwise you can't fit in the kitchen, right? Mm-hmm. So it's, even if they don't stay in the kitchen, it's just a lot of life skills. So you can. Bring with you and take with you to whatever job. And you know, now, 10 years, LA later we have successful executive chefs, we have restaurant managers, we're executive pastry chefs. So it does show that it was, it was important. And

Francis:

these are kids who, who might've gone the wrong way. They didn't. Oh God. But for this, I mean,

Marcus:

who would've, I mean, like when, you know, look, you, look, I know for myself when I was 16, 17, you know, if you, I had the kitchen at that time and guys were 21, 22 years old. I was looking up to them. And uh, so I had somewhere to go, you know? And for me it's a toss up at that time. I think, you know, it really is, you know,

Mark:

well, you know, and, and you talk about structure'cause in, in a kitchen, and this is, you know, no, no pun intended, but if you don't follow the rules and the regulations in a kitchen, you literally get burned. You literally, yeah, yeah. You know, turn to, turn to the wrong way, or, or don't follow the policies, you, you're gonna get hurt.

Francis:

I also think that you do a very valuable thing because you know they're worth of vocational and technical schools, which there still are and they still do a great service. But those jobs are very at risk these days and it's not like there are the local art, you know, as many local artisanal, stable manufacturing jobs in the economy for people who may not choose to go to a four year college. Yeah, yeah. Which is not say that some chefs don't go to a four year college, but you know, cooking is now. A tremendous profession and a cornerstone of, of this economy.

Marcus:

No, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, uh, I just think you learn lots. I mean, I've traveled all over the world through food, and even if you don't have those opportunities, you can just go. If you're a American kid and you work in a Japanese restaurant, guess what? You just learned about Japanese culture, right? Mm-hmm. Next day you work in Italian. Next year you work in an Italian restaurant, you learn something there, so you, your restaurants also gives you, or Mexican restaurant, so it gives you this allowance to learn about other cultures. So you probably wouldn't have if you, you know. If you just work in another environment,

Francis:

you a, a tremendous way to learn about, African culture and African cuisine in a way that, uh, unless you've been there, you, you couldn't possibly understand. It is in Marcus Samuelson's beautiful book, the Soul of a New Cuisine, a Discovery of the Foods and Flavors of Africa. And when we come back, Marcus, I want to talk, uh, with you about, about the food that you're cooking in your restaurants in New York and what's going on in, in, in New York these days. Absolutely. Thank you. We'll, we'll be back in just a moment with Marcus Samuelson. Uh, chef and owner of Aquavit and Ringo, you're listening to the Restaurant Guys, Marcus, you were born in Ethiopia, you were raised in Sweden, you came to New York, you award three stars at Aquavit, the Scandinavian restaurant in New York City. Um, Ringo is great. It's an American Japanese fusion restaurant. Um, when's the African restaurant gonna open?

Marcus:

Uh, Hey man, I'm trying, I'm trying to open it so bad. I would love to, uh, you know what is, to open a restaurant, you need a lot of, you know, a lot of money. In, in the right location. And if you have the, have the right money, it, the location comes easier right now. But it's, it's, it's a, it's a hard thing. Uh, I definitely want to do it one day. I feel definitely, you know, writing the book was sort of the, I felt that was the right way to start it because I wanted people to be aware that there is a Pan African cooking possibility and so on. Mm-hmm. And, um, I also felt that, um. When you have a restaurant, you give people one experience, but when you have a book experience and people go home and cook it at home, you bond in a different way, you know? Mm-hmm. And, uh, restaurant might be one way to do it, but this book form is also another way to do it, to communicate with, people about a, that I might not be familiar with. And, and it's sort of like, I just wanna invite people in and be encouraged, uh, about this. the foods of Africa really comes from many places. It comes from India, Indonesia, Malaysia, and then it was, you know, was traded or, or came through trading, came to Africa very often. And then you have obviously the conversation that had a lot of impact on Africa, food to Portuguese, the French, and so on. And then you have the African giving influences to Sardinia, Sicily, and, and Spain, and also Brazil, you know, and the Caribbean islands. And when you think about that, through trading, it came to south the southern states of America. You know, there's a reason why we have okra and rice in South Carolina and North Carolina. Mm-hmm. So when you look at it from that aspect, you know, it's, it's essentially 2 billion people that has affected. You know, that has impacted of this. Mm-hmm. And when you, when you are in Senegal, you see the same food in Brazil, in Baia when you are in, in Malaysia and you, you taste the foods in Durban, it's the same flavors you know, I've been lucky enough to been to all the places. So I've, I've been eaten in markets, in people's homes, but. Not most people have. So this is really my letter to them saying, Hey man, there's a link here and guess what? You can be the benefit there and, uh, go home and cook this and, you know, talk to your kids about that. Or your family.

Mark:

You know, we had, Floyd Cardos on the, on the show. Yeah. The chef at Table recently talking about, uh, the, some of the Indian spices. Yep. What are, what are the, some of the spices that are integral to this cuisine or some of these cuisines?

Marcus:

Well, they're, they're so different, but you know, they, it's very similar to the Indian, you know, you go to island like where. The Arabs and the Persians and the Indians and the Africans always met through trading of spices or Marrakesh, right? So the capital of trading. But you know, in, in Sambar you have fresh turmeric, you have vanilla, you have clove, you have cardman. So essentially what would make curries right, a different original curries in, in, you go to Northern Africa, it's a little more floral. You know, you have a, a spice blend that you find even all the way tar satar. That is the citrusy, more floral note you have in Morocco. You have that a main spice plant called elra note, which is cumin, cardamon, cinnamon, uh, a little bit milder chilies. Uh, so then you go to the Tunisia and you have hada, which has a little bit more red chilies to sit on. Chilies can be a wet past. Uh, then you come to a place like Segal where you have the Scotch bonnet a lot, so it's stronger chilies.

Francis:

Now, do you very

Mark:

Scotch bonnet is one of the spicy chilies in the world. Yeah, very

Marcus:

spicy. So, so there is a complete, I mean, the Arab food in general, the Arab Que is not spicy food. It's very floral and it's very flavorful, but it's not spicy. You know, the Portuguese was the one that brought chili to Africa and, and in Mozambique, Angola and in Brazil you find something called per. And that spice blend is really chilies, red chilies, hai chilies, red chilies with garlic, lemon juice, olive oil, parsley, cilantro. That's used for everything.

Francis:

Now. Now do you, do you think that with your book that your adventurous cook at home can, work these, uh, spices into their cooking?

Marcus:

Absolutely. I mean, these are, these are flavors and foods that we already doing without knowing it. You know, you know, like these are stew actually. To do this book than most books because it's. It's family food. It's not restaurant food that we sort of dumbing down for you to cook.

Francis:

Right, right. And it's not alman necessarily, it's things you can,

Marcus:

this is Stew. I did Oxtail soup yesterday, uh, Al Stew yesterday, and these are all regular food. It's a vocabulary that we have to get used to. Right before we knew the difference between sushi, STO and so on ceviche, we were just lost in all of these words. Right?

Speaker 4:

Right.

Marcus:

But once we knew there's a major difference between ceviche and sushi, right?

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Marcus:

Nobody thinks it's different. Nobody thinks it's a weird thing to order, right? It's a matter of mood. So I want this book to sort of open up that new vocabulary. You

Mark:

may, you may need to go to the market and, and pick up some, some new spices. Yeah. And some new ingredients. Yeah.

Marcus:

And then you can like, wow. Garma salad is actually this. Oh, I Ra note gives me this flavor. Harissa gives me this.

Francis:

Well, let me ask you a question. Now you've opened a couple of different restaurants and, now you have a book introducing African cuisine, and your first restaurant was introducing, I mean, Scandinavian cuisine wasn't exactly a staple. No. Nor is it today a staple of the New York City restaurant scene. Yeah. It, what are the similarities between, I mean, you introduced Americans to an unfamiliar cuisine at Aquavit Yeah. And you're introducing'em to an unfamiliar cuisine here with African food. Are there similarities with, with how you bring a new cuisine to, to people, to Americans?

Marcus:

I'm, uh, curious, uh, if you do something, well, Americans are always open to try it. You know?

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm. America,

Marcus:

Americans get a lot of shit for a lot of different things, but you know what? Americans are pretty damn open to try different foods and don't really hold grudges regularly. I mean, you know, I'm talking the average Joe. Right. He, if it's good, he'd be there. He tried, he tried once. If it's not good, he's not coming back.

Speaker 4:

Right. But I

Marcus:

think that's, that's pretty, he's pretty open. I would say Americans in general are more open trying food than Europeans, you know?

Francis:

Yeah. Well, I, I think it's because we don't have as strong a tradition ourselves. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, I think that sometimes, um, bites us a little bit when we are, we're more prone to fall for the processed gimmick. Yeah. But it also leaves us more,

Marcus:

you know, also gives you that, Hey man, I don't care. I'll go down there, try, give it a try. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Absolutely. It. It's an open mindedness that I think as a, as a chef that I've embraced and, and, uh, people have opened the doors from, they allowed me to try different things. You know, I'm not Japanese either, and we have Japanese restaurants, so, you know, it's, um. Uh, I think, um, people, if you serve great African Pan-African food and people are, you did well, people will come.

Francis:

Well, Marcus, um, you certainly have done well in your restaurants. I've eaten there and I love them and I hope that someday you'll come down to New Brunswick and dine with us. I will. Thanks so much, Marcus. Thank you very much

Speaker 4:

guys.

Francis:

Thanks for having me on. It's, it's been great to have you. Uh, Marcus Samuelson is an amazing chef. You can try his food in New York. We'll link you to them through our websites. Uh, the book is called The Soul of a New Cuisine, the Discovery of The Foods and Flavors of Africa. We'll, back in just a moment. We're talking with Marcus Samuelson. You really should try his restaurants. If you wanna try a broad range of cuisines, you can go for, Scandinavian Aquavit, three stars in the New York Times. We'll put a link up to our website, or Ringo is the Japanese fusion restaurant. A little more hip downtown place. But the book is, the book is beautiful,

Mark:

it also gives a lot a description of a lot of the spices and herbs that they've been using over time for this cuisine. there are things that, that may not be as familiar to us as others. I was going through the book. And I saw, uh, one of the ingredients that, that Marcus likes to use in, in some of these cuisines is a, an ingredient called F Greek. Well, fenugreek, for those of you don't know, is a supplement that's frequently given to breastfeeding mothers when they're just starting breastfeeding. Well, it helps produce milk for the baby. Yeah. So a lot of, uh, a lot of herbalists will tell you to eat Fe Greek. Yeah. Something that we learned. That when you eat F Greek, oh God, where's this going? Oh, it's nowhere bad. Okay. Nowhere bad. When, when you eat F Greek, you begin to smell a little bit like maple syrup. So some of these things have, so when you said your wife was sweet, you meant some of these things have peculiar side effects. I'm like, uh, that smells like obsession with a little side of pancakes. What? What's up with that? Marcus Marcus's having bacon with his wife. I always wanted breakfast every time I saw my wife for that period of time. I

Francis:

have to say, you know, it's funny that you did mention with our interview with Marcus, the Floyd Cardos interview mm-hmm. In his book, which is talks about Indian cuisine. Amazing. But. This book was a real revelation to me. I have seen pictures and I have read something about, Asia Indian Cuisine. This book is a huge coffee table book, and it's beautiful. It really pretty, it's just, it's really, uh, uh, I mean, there are pictures and I, I find it very helpful when there's a cookbook or a book about a cuisine where it shows a picture of the place and a picture of the food, because just describing it to me, I don't know if I got it right or if I got it wrong.

Mark:

Wait, and you get an understanding of the place and the people and. And, you know, Marcus said something that, that really touched home in a lot, most of these communities in Africa, a grandmother doesn't have a a meal alone and a child, a child doesn't have a meal alone. You eat as a family.

Francis:

Well, mark and I are gonna go eat together at Ada Ethiopian Restaurant in downtown New Brunswick, one of our favorites. You can find out on our website as well. I hope you've enjoyed the hour listening to the restaurant. Guys, I'm Francis Shock. Mark

Mark:

Pascal,

Francis:

we are the restaurant guys, central Jersey 1450. The time is 12 noon.