The Restaurant Guys

BONUS! Dale & Pete on Turf & Tipple

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This is a BONUS! episode relating to the Belmont Stakes 2025

The ConversationThe Restaurant Guys sit down with King Cocktail Dale DeGroff and Peter Thomas Fornatale of In the Money Players’ Podcast to talk about horse racing and the cocktails that accompany it. Pete offers his Win, Place and Show for the upcoming Belmont Stakes 2025. Listen and you could wind up in the money.

The Inside Track The Guys are horse racing fans and hosted Dale for his performance of “Gamblers, Whisky and Flying Horses.” They recently met Pete and plan to catch up with him at the track in Saratoga this summer. They all have had fun times with Dale including one night when Dale had to give the bartenders at a new NYC hotspot a cocktail recipe.

 Pete: You're writing out the recipe on the back of a napkin to send to the bartenders to go and make us around. To this day still, it was the most baller move I've ever seen to be in the hot new restaurant writing out the recipe. This is what we'd like to drink, thank you very much.

Francis: I wanna make a public service announcement to all dining customers. If you are not Dale Degroff, don't do that. 

Dale: And by the way, this explains why nobody knows where these famous drinks came from with a few minor exceptions because they wrote 'em down on a cocktail napkin and stuck them in their pocket. Later on in the evening they pulled it out, blew their nose on it and threw it away.

Dale DeGroff & Peter Thomas Fornatale on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025

Info

Pete’s podcast

https://inthemoneypodcast.com/category/players-podcast/

Pete’s book
Brooklyn Spirits: Craft Distilling and Cocktails from the World's Hippest Borough
By Peter Thomas Fornatale & Chris Wertz

Chris MacMillan mint julep video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJV-O1e10z8&t=358s

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Mark:

Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left in capital Lombardi, restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.

Francis:

Hello everybody. Today you are listening to a special bonus episode of the Restaurant Guys. Uh, in honor of the Belmont steaks, which is coming up later this week. We have invited in some cocktail people and some pony people. We have Dale DeGraff, who's the king of the cocktail, if he needs no introduction and if you don't know who he is. Listen to an old episode or Google the man. He is the king of the cocktail. If

Mark:

you don't know who he is, you're listening to the wrong show.

Francis:

Yeah, you haven't listened. Welcome to your First Restaurant Guys radio show. We also have Pete Fortal, and Pete has a foot in both the world of Ponies and the World of Cocktails. He hosts the award-winning in the Money Players Podcast, which offers analysis and engaging commentary on the world of. Thoroughbred racing, but not just in the horses. Peter co-authored Brooklyn Spirits Craft Distilling and Cocktails from the World's Hips borough. He's been known to get behind the stick himself, and we're happy to have both of these guys on the show with us for a special bonus episode of the Restaurant. Guys. Gentlemen, welcome to the show.

Dale:

Hi guys. Hello. Hey, did you hear that Pete said Inside track. Inside Track,

Francis:

works for ponies. so Dale, you are a, a horsey aficionado. You have put on shows that combine cocktails and, music and ponies that we've hosted some here. And, uh, when we were talking to you about doing this, we thought it, this bears a special, uh, restaurant guys episode. So I think we wanna start the podcast by talking about. Cocktails that are specific to sporting events, and I guess specifically there are pony events that call that are traditional cocktails that are associated with them. That's kind of an interesting subset of traditional cocktails. Can you talk to us about that to start a Sure,

Dale:

sure. Well, obviously Mele, that's the. The oldest and also the Mint Julip, was the first American cockle to be exported to London, where at Oxford University there was actually a mid julip day. Uh, but mid Julip was incredibly important in the development of the relationship between American whiskey and horse racing. Uh, even though the mid first, mid may have been, uh, peach brandy. and then of course, uh, the second leg of the triple crown has the black-eyed Susan, well wait.

Francis:

We gonna talk about the Mint julip, that's Kentucky Derby.

Mark:

Yeah. when did the Mint, Julip and the Derby Connect? When did those two things happen?

Dale:

Uh, do you know Pete?

Mark:

Yeah, I've, I've,

Pete:

I have a, a whole blurb about it in, uh, the, the cocktail book I wrote, which is called Brooklyn Spirits. But of course, you know, I wrote that 10 years ago. So, so asking you to remember is a, is a bit of a, is a bit of a lift here, but I think it was not that far from, from the beginning of the event. Right. Just timing wise, in terms of cocktails in American culture, late 19th century, we're talking right.

Francis:

Yes, but how does the drink? And I just think it's may, maybe you guys don't know, but I think it's interesting to note that when you think of the Kentucky Derby, you think of Mint juleps, you think of the specific glassware, the specific cup. It's a bourbon thing and it's, most people, it's many. For many people, it's the only mint julip they have all year. And you know, if you're, unless you're in New Orleans, and I love mint jokes in the summertime, but you know, mint has just come up and you just. You think of the hats. You think of the outfits, you think of those, uh, pewter cups and you know, it's inextricably identified with the Kentucky Derby is the mint Julep.

Mark:

I, I thought you were gonna say, and you're off to the race and you're off. That's what I thought

Pete:

before I met Dale. Before I met Dale, I thought the mint julep was obnoxious thing that tasted like a mixture of weak whiskey and toothpaste. Yeah. But then taking a class from Dale at some point in the nineties. He made a version of a julip using, I think it was a bottled in bond whiskey, so a little bit stronger, didn't get as diluted and using, instead of just syrup, muddling a little bit of orange and a little bit of pineapple along with the mint. I have been making that version of the drink dale at the Derby ever since, and I always raise my grandfather's pewter jupa tin to you when I do it.

Dale:

I, I, I, I've been messing with the drink for years. I created the whiskey smash. Number two in re in in honor and tradition, uh, to the tradition of Jerry Thomas who had the whiskey smash. Uh, but it was, his whiskey smash was just a mint julip on a, in a short class. You know, it sold all around the city of New York, probably more mint JUULs was sold in New York City than anywhere else in the world. And the. Idea of, of the short glass with mint and sugar and bourbon. Eh, so I put the lemon in a little simple syrup or I did it the way you did it early on also. I was always messing around with it'cause I was never satisfied with sugar and mint and bourbon, you know what I mean? Uh, I mean, of course the crushed diocese critical and really helps a lot, uh, the iness. Uh, and you need a metal or a silver. And it frosts up on the outside and it has to be a little wider at the top than the bottom because when you grab it, it'll slip right through your fingers if it's not right,'cause it's all slippery on the sides and it's really an amazing drink. See, at the track, they made the mistake of having a straight sided glass.

Speaker 4:

Mm, which was

Dale:

really dumb. I've dropped and so have a lot of other people. It comes to you in a box, frozen into the box, there's a clump of ice at the bottom. You pick it up and it slips right through your hands, you know?

Mark:

Yeah,

Dale:

yeah. Then you have to take your flask out.

Mark:

Seems like a mistake. I, I think one of your first, uh, iterations of that, that you did here was with a blackberry.'cause that's, again, right around the same season. Blackberries are coming up. And you're throwing a couple blackberries in the bottom with the mint and spectacular.

Dale:

I think I was at Blackbird at the time. No. Yes. Maybe. I don't know. But I was doing a lot of mashing of fruit at the black at, at blackbird with cherries and grapes and things and things, and IY yeah.

Francis:

I, I want, I think it, it, it takes a moment to talk about, because Pete, we had a similar experience to you. We thought, oh, let's try mint ju Dale got the gentleman's companion and all those old books in the eighties and he figured out that they were a code for like how you could make a drink. And I, and I, strangely enough, in the eighties, the Far Hills Rummage Sale got a first edition of the Gentleman's Companion Box set and I started going through these old, books and the old Mr. Boston and I kind of slavishly followed the recipes, not realizing that. Ingredients have changed. They didn't write recipes exactly the same as they did back then. And I thought, Jesus, those cocktails tastes like

Speaker 4:

crap. They don't know how to

Francis:

make a cocktail. Geez. And then, uh, it was when Dale, when we met Dale, that I, I realized that there was technique and sensibility that had to be brought to the table. and so what I learned from Dale was all sorts of stuff. Like you said, use good bourbon, crash ice, you can muddle the mint gently, but don't beat it because if you beat it, it tastes like asparagus or it tastes like spinach. But if you gently touch it, it tastes like mint. And, that is a, I mean, the classic mint julep, every. First party of the year, I have them on my, on my roof. When the mint comes in,

Dale:

well, warning Will Robinson. Early in the early days of, of the Rainbow Room, I thought, oh, wouldn't it be cool to get a good bottle of bourbon and just pack it full of mint and, and let it sit, you know, overnight or something, you know? So I did that. Oh my God.

Francis:

Yeah. And that's a good

Dale:

it. It's almost as if the, you know, have you ever had like a parsley or min to something in the bottom of the refrigerator for a week and you take it out and it's almost like liquid and it stinks.

Francis:

Yeah,

Dale:

that's what happened. It was the worst. I blew off a really good bottle of bourbon. I mean, it was totally worthless. And I said, oh my God, what was I thinking?

Francis:

But in the alternative though, you can make mint simple syrup and cheat your way in a little bit. That's the way to do it, right? You

Dale:

could do that.

Francis:

Yeah.

Dale:

We have spearmint growing up right side alongside the house here right now. And why spearmint? Regular elephant mint, I call it.'cause there are big leaves that are floppy. Uh, spearmint is standing at attention from the beginning of the drink to the end. It never wilts, it never flops. It makes beautiful little bouquets. So look for spearmint

Mark:

Part of the pleasure of this drink is the garnish and you know, France and I talk about drink garnishes all the time, and. Dale was one of the people who taught me this early on. The garnish needs to make sense with the drink and it needs to compliment the drink. It's part of the drink. It's not just some pretty color, some pretty flour. It's gotta be part of the drink. And mint in a mint, julip at the top, in your nose, in your face. Has to be part of it.

Francis:

Best video ever on making a mint. Julip chris McMillan breaks his own ice and, and recites you a poem about the mint julip while he makes it. We'll put that link on our show notes to make so you can make your own mint tulips at home.

Dale:

That presentation was filmed in a presentation that I was part of. At the Smithsonian when we had the Museum of the American Cocktail really rolling strong periodically. Phil Green arranged for us to perform at the, Smithsonian. You can go to their collection of videos and it's huge. Uh, and you can see the one. That was filmed with Chris reciting the poem, coming on the downbeat with that big mallet of his. It is amazing. It's Americana. I mean, he's a big guy with a big voice.

Francis:

and he's an authority on the cocktail. Alright, time to move on to the next.

Dale:

before we go anywhere? Hey buddy. We may see sovereign and journalism, nose to nose in the Belmont Stakes. Huh?

Pete:

We're gonna hijack the cocktail conversation with horses. Yes. Ready are.

Francis:

Okay.

Pete:

Alright,

Francis:

so Pete, we have, we have the Belmont steaks coming up. what are we looking at on the field?

Mark:

Well, the first thing you gotta talk about is it being at Saratoga instead of Belmont. Belmont Stakes at Saratoga,

Pete:

it's one of these, we, it's a weird thing, right? The traditionalist in me wants the Belmont Stakes to live up to its name, the test of the champion, and be a mile and a half. Around Belmont Park. That's not gonna happen this year because Belmont is being reconstructed. Breaking news. Actually, today we just learned, Dale, that the 2027 Breeders Cup is going to be contested at the new Belmont Park, but while we wait for it to be done, we're gonna be up in upstate this year. So it does change the race fundamentally, going from the mile and a half to the mile and a quarter. But while something is lost, something is gained. And what's gained is you're in one of the great sporting venues in America, if not the world, historic Saratoga racecourse going back to 1863. They're, they're building this thing. As the Civil War is ending, its still recognizable. You know, obviously been a few updates since then, but it's a magical place and it is a great site for a venue like a Belmont Stakes. Under these unusual circumstances. I wouldn't wanna see a permanent move or anything like that, but while there's an excuse to do it up there, let's do it up there. I've had a house in Saratoga for years. We've got the mint patch in the back for reasons, just like we were talking about, and I never put together until today. How the spearmint is a so much better call than the mint that I've been using all these years. I'm gonna rip it out and plant the new stuff as soon as I get up there. But this year we're really gonna be treated to a very special contest because we're going to have, it looks like we'll knock.'cause in horse racing, things can change overnight, but it looks like we're gonna have the derby winner. Against the Preakness winner. This could be billed as a heavyweight title fight between those two, but it might not be as simple as those two'cause you've got some interesting horses with outside chances in here as well. Bob Baffert, a name that sure needs no introduction to any horse racing fan. Uh, for good reasons and bad, he is in there with big contender, a horse called Rodriguez. He's the only one as of now, signed on. Who wants to do his best running early in the race, he could have what's known as a pace advantage and try to spoil the party. Then there's a horse called bza. BZA was third to these two back in the Kentucky Derby. But you can make a case that this horse with as lightly raced as he is, is just gonna keep on improving and he might be able to. Get in there and, and score at what's gonna be a big price. So as of now, those look like the four main contenders in this year's Belmont Stakes. We'll see who else turns up, but any which way, even just the presence of journalism and sovereignty to have Kentucky Derby winner against pre this winners horse racing is built on rivalries and we've got a heck of a one, uh, brewing. And we'll get to see the next chapter in upstate New York in just about, uh, less than a week's time.

Dale:

Nice.

Pete:

Alright. I

Francis:

know this is, uh, this is unprofessional and, uh, we can't guarantee this 100%, but I, I got a million dollars that I'm gonna do win Place show in your name.

Speaker 4:

Give me,

Francis:

give me the results, uh, of, of, of the horse race. And by the way, if you predict this properly. This will quickly become the most popular podcast in the world. So please, we are betting on you getting this right. No pressure. Go

Pete:

ahead. Well, I'll tell you what, I, I had made a joke before when folks were asking me about how the derby went this year, and I told them I'll live to be a hundred before I give you the 1, 2, 3 in the Kentucky Derby. Again, I think I can do it in this year's Belmont Steak, though I think I, I think I can do it if you're only looking for one horse. For me, it's journalism. There's something about his earlier body of work, especially, I think as good as he's been in these two triple Crown races. I think there's more to come from this horse. I think he has a chance to put it all together and do something really special in the foothills of the Adirondacks on Saturday. He'd be the one to win. But if you want a a, a place and show a second and third too for a bet, like the trifecta, I'm not gonna go against sovereignty for second. He's the derby winner. I think journalism can reverse the form. I think he's still better than all the others. He'll run second. And that young pretender I mentioned, uh, za. Pretender in the, in the English sense, not in any pejorative sense, but the up and comer. I think he's got enough talent to be right up there in a photo for second, but I think when that photo gets developed, he'll be third. There it is. Journalism sovereignty, bza same three from the derby. Slightly different order.

Francis:

that's from Pete Fornet Tile. So anyone from our show up to a hundred dollars place a bet. If you lose, Pete's gonna refund your money.

Pete:

Come on. If you in exchange, gimme a nice if, if that same person gives me a whiskey of of equivalent value. We'll, there you go.

Mark:

There you go. It's, well, what's interesting about that is, so this happens, this has happened a lot of times, right? that there's a Derby winner and a Preakness winner facing each other in the Belmont. So 11 times The Derby winner has won the Belmont 18 times. The Preakness winner has won the Belmont, so little higher odds for the Preakness winner to win the Belmont Than the Derby winner. as far as what's happened traditionally, historically on a strict,

Pete:

on a strict historical reading, I could see that point. You know, the trouble with all stats and horse racing is a game built on stats. You can, there's a lot of different ways of, of looking at them, and I always try to cleave more closely to the, the fundamentals of what I see in the horses as individuals. But, but that stat does suggest that I might be right, so I like it. Now if it said something that I didn't like. I would pull the old, uh, Charlie Brown to Lucy and tell the statistics to shut up.

Mark:

I was, I was just about to say, and I pulled up those stat, those stats, because I like journalism in this race, and so that's why I broadcast those particular stats.

Francis:

All right. Well, now that we have the winner all sorted, because there's no point in even watching the race. But, uh, except for the excitement of the cash, your tickets. Let's, let's go back to the drinks aspect of the ponies. What other, alright,

Dale:

let's forget the Preakness because they got a drink called the Black Guide, Susan, with vodka rum, orange juice, p blue juice, and orange liqueur. Forget it. That is not a racetrack drink. Okay, where it came from, forget about it, the 1970s. I wanna bring my drink into, uh, Belmont and Saratoga to the VIP room, which is two ounces of rye whiskey, three quarter ounces of mixed Italian and French Sweet vermouths, uh, half ounce of May Maro, uh, I like to use a, a bonded rye whiskey. Hello. You got one in particular American whiskey Is, is at its sweet spot at a hundred proof and, and at at least four years old. So that's the way we want to go with that drink. it's called. Kings as in the sport of Kings Manhattan and also King

Francis:

cocktail. Yeah. That kind

Pete:

of works. Double works a lot of work. And you like it with the, you like it with the New York distilling rye, right?

Dale:

I do. Uh, Alan Kass makes a great rye. Uh, and he has, he has over a hundred proof on some of his bottlings.

Francis:

we used the Old Forester Rye when you were here, and I made an excellent version of that cocktail. are there other, uh, sports specific cocktails that go with this specific? So,

Dale:

come on. Pims Cup. Are you kidding? Yeah. Wi yeah. Oh my God. And it's good. I learned the PIMS Cup at the Hotel Belaire in Los Angeles, and they did it properly, slice of apple. Uh, they used barrage, you know, when they had it, or mint when they didn't. Uh. Slice of apple barrage mint. And we had another one other garnish, uh, strawberries. Now, if you go to, if you go to Wimbledon, you get basically a fruit salad on top of your beautiful, beautiful, uh, PIs cup. Uh, and PIs is so good. The drink is so good. They say lemonade and in fact, they're meat. They mean seven up. But really, yeah, the best, uh, PI's cup is when you take lemon juice, simple syrups, your favorite sparkling mineral water or soda or whatever, uh, and, and prepare it that way so it tastes, you know, fresh and wonderful. Uh, make by the

Pete:

picture. Right, right, Dale? I mean, it's not Absolutely. There you

Dale:

go. And then just top it off with a little sparkling,

Pete:

The first time they said, do you want to jug? I was like, go. You mean a pitcher? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Few pictures of PIs,

Mark:

people in the US seem to have stopped drinking PIs, you know, it was popular in the eighties and even a little bit in the nineties. Not

Dale:

in New Orleans, baby,

Mark:

but yeah, that's true. Except in New Orleans here, up in the northeast. I, I haven't had a call for PIMS in a long time.

Dale:

Isn't that weird, huh?

Mark:

We always keep it behind the bar, but it just seems to have, have faded. It's spectacular. Yeah. PIMS cup in the summertime, nothing like it.

Dale:

The masters. The masters has the azalea. Yep. Which is basically an Arnold Palmer, to which you add gin. Now. I like that idea.

Mark:

I presume that drink came along later since Arnold Palmer wasn't around in 1910.

Dale:

Exactly. It did. No, it came along like much, much later. Uh, and if you're not doing the right thing, you'll make it with vodka. I.

Pete:

I've heard that referred to as the John Daley with no ironing. I've heard people do that. Well,

Dale:

it, they'll slip in a little pineapple sometime over there at the master's tournament for, for those of setting it aside, you know, for their

Mark:

cocktail and not sports fans. John Dailey is a golfer who's been known to play on the PGA tour drunk.

Dale:

Hmm.

Mark:

Self-admittedly drunk.

Dale:

Well, okay. Boxing, who knew not me, that there was a time. When the Jack Rose was considered to be the boxing drink of choice? No, I did not know

Mark:

that.

Dale:

Who knew?

Mark:

I did not know that.

Dale:

has anybody been to finale's on Prince Street? Of course.

Francis:

I have a finale story when you're done with the cocktail.

Dale:

So you walk in and the bar's on the right, that's the classic layout. you're a corner bar. The bar should be on the right and on the left there's either gonna be Windows or what. They have a giant collection of boxing photographs going back to the teens, Why? Because one of the most famous, gyms for, well, there were three, but one of the most famous ones was right in that neighborhood.

Francis:

tell you my finale story. our mutual friend Dale Kurt Wenzel, author. A former, restaurant manager and like he and I traveled to Europe together as young men, and this is before I met you. And he had a cousin named Wade Tonkin, who was a manager of a restaurant down in soho. We'd been down there for years, and I came back from Europe and I'm looking for a bartending job. So, uh, you couldn't get a job back then if you were a New Jersey bartender. Nobody in New York would hire you without New York experience. So I went to Wade, who was a New York manager. He's like, yeah, I'll live for you. I'll tell him you worked here and you know, I know what you're doing and I'll send you around to a few places. And so he sent me to a number of places. One of the places he sent me was, and he is like, go and apply a finale. You'll never get a job at finale's because I re it's still there, by the way. And, but it was like. When Soho was, hadn't arrived yet. Finale's was an outpost, and I, and I went into finale's. I wanted a bartender there so bad. so Wade said, you know, you can apply and I'll put in a good word for you, but the only way you're gonna get a bar bartending job there, I. Is if somebody dies. That's true. That's the only way you're gonna get a job there.

Speaker 4:

That's true. So

Francis:

three weeks later, Kevin Zare got me a job at, so soho Kitchen in bar and I, and after I take the job, I get a call from Wade. He's like, Francis call me immediately. And I'm like, Hey man, what's going on? I's like one of the bartenders at Finale's just died.

Dale:

Well, my finale story. I get back from LA with my new wife. Of four years, I guess it was Jill, and we're sitting at the bar. I hung out at the place and I kind of recognized the guy. I He had a bald head, older guy, So we sit down and he goes. You two together. And I said, uh, yeah, it'll never work. And he turned and he walked away. Now that's the kind of bartender I really love. But you mentioned, uh, hiring a bartender with New York experience. Do you know that when I had a month, six weeks worth of interviews for the opening of the Rainbow Room, the one thing I vowed not to do. Was to hire a bartender with New York experience.

Francis:

Yeah, makes sense. Very Danny Meyer. Because who

Dale:

is gonna make my drinks not a New York bartender?

Francis:

Right.

Dale:

They know everything. That's very, yeah. Nice. That sounds great, but I'm gonna make it this way. You know, I've doing it for years. Why would I flip? Why would I listen to this guy?

Mark:

That's funny. So Pete, I have to tell you a little story about your dad and Francis and me. Nice. So for those of you who don't know, Pete Al's dad was one of the preeminent disc jockeys in the world, had the largest record collection, which I understand you have. You have, uh, right behind you brought back to the, to the front of the line. Uh, but anyway, so your dad used to be a DJ at WNEW here in New York, New Jersey, and. On July 4th, WNEW did a thing called the Firecracker 500, and they play the top 500 songs ever. so one of the places that Francis and I bonded as 19, 20, 21 year olds, we had a July 4th party every year at a friend's house. And we had a thing called Beer Olympics, and the background track for beer Olympics was the firecracker 500 ejd by your dad. And so I have 50 hours of video where the firecracker 500 is the background music of, of all sorts of. Of fun and games, including the Francis Shot Memorial Bat Races. Yeah. Tremendous

Dale:

memorial bat race.

Francis:

Yeah.

Mark:

Beautiful.

Francis:

Oh, you

Mark:

don't wanna know.

Francis:

Stupid drinking games. Drinking games Really brought up to an Olympic level in Jeans baker. I love that. Oh dad. Dad would be proud. And my, and my favorite thing about the old beer Olympics is, you know how they have the Olympic rings? Our, our symbol was the rings of a six pack holder. It was, it was very serious. Very serious competition. It was very serious.

Pete:

there's a great, there's a great bull fighting drink. I don't know if you have more Dale, but there's a great bull fighting drink that I have a story about you that that involves for it. I,

Dale:

for know, the bull fighting drink. But tell me the story.

Pete:

Well, you tell about the drink first and then I'll tell the story.

Dale:

Alright. The drink is, uh, a mixture, actually. It's more. It's kind of a soccer bull fighting also in a bull fighting drink, but it's, it's a mix of, red wine and Coca-Cola. Is that the one you're thinking of?

Pete:

No, I was thinking of the blood in sand. Oh, the blood in sand. Blood in sand. Well, that's an

Dale:

American drink. It's not a span. I'm thinking about the Spanish.

Pete:

Gotcha. I just always assumed it was a bull fighting reference. I've never heard of blood in sand until. I was fortunate enough to be with you one night, shortly after Pastis opened and we were ordered. We all ordered steak fruit, and so the question of course went to you, what would be a good cocktail with steak, and you thought of the blood and sand and I guess you'd trained the bartenders or something because next thing I know, you call the waiter over, you've got your pen, you've got your paper, you're, it's not on the, this is totally off menu. You're writing out the recipe. On the, the, the back of a napkin to send to the bartenders to go and make us around. And at the time, and to this day still, it was the most baller move I've ever seen to be in the, the hot new restaurant, you know, writing out the recipe. This is what we, this is what we'd like to drink. Thank you very much. Completely.

Francis:

I wanna make. Public service announcement to all dining customers. Uh, if you are not Dale Degra, don't do that.

Dale:

And by the way, this explains why nobody knows where these famous drinks came from with the, with a few minor exceptions because they wrote'em down on. Cocktail neck and stuck them in their pocket and later on in the evening they pulled it out, blew their nose on it and threw it away. Yeah.

Francis:

Blood and sand by the way. I have to give props to blood and sand. Great drink orange juice. cherry, herring, and scotch And sweet.

Mark:

It was on our first cocktail. You put that drink on our first cocktail menu in 1993. Why?

Dale:

Because amazing. It goes good with game or any really heavy meat. You know, any meat, any meat that's cooked with a fruit sauce or with something in that genre like, like venison with, jerry sauce or whatever, It's amazing.

Francis:

Yeah. And all the, all the cool kids in cocktails today are crapping on orange juice. They're like, oh, orange juice isn't real. You can't, you have any good cocktails with orange juice? Incorrect. Incorrect blood and sand is not an overrated cocktail. It's a great cocktail, but it's a cocktail that the real snobs love to hate, which makes me like it even more.

Dale:

They're probably too lazy to squeeze their own orange juice.

Francis:

Alright, well we have one more topic I want to talk about, uh, for just a moment before we go, if you, have the opportunity to see us on Instagram talking about this, we have behind us one of Jill Degrass painting. This is Rosie Nik on the Horse. Believe You Can, she was the first woman to win the Kentucky Oaks, Kentucky in 2012.

_1_05-28-2025_135023:

All of Jill Graf's paintings are for sale at stage left wine shop.com. Just do a search for DeGraff and you'll turn up Dale's Bitters and tomorrow. And, you'll also see all of Jill's beautiful artwork, which you should definitely have in your home,

Francis:

we are the number one gallery site for Jill's work, uh, permanently. So come into the bar and check it out anytime. you know the story

Dale:

behind that painting.

Francis:

Yeah. Tell the story.

Dale:

brown Foreman they were the, uh, Belmont sponsors for years. Mm-hmm. And they wanted to put art on the label of the Belmont Edition. And so Jill did that and sent it in and missed the deadline. And they said, oh, we really liked it, you know, but we've already gone with another painting, you know? she thought, well, how many women. Are in, involved in major races, not very many. And she thought, this'll give me a really inside track, if

Speaker 4:

you will. Yeah, yeah.

Dale:

Anyway, it was too bad. So there it sits, you know, well, here

Francis:

it sits until you wanna buy it. And check us out at

Mark:

stage left wine chop.com. So the story of every bartender everywhere, always is. Yeah, I missed the deadline.

Pete:

Yeah.

Mark:

I

Pete:

was gonna win that. But

Mark:

I, I love when they're, like, tales of the cocktail has this and, uh, BC, B, the Brooklyn event has this, and every time like you're like, and the deadline is this, and then a deadline comes and you're like. We have extended the deadline. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Francis:

You're running a bartender contest. You know there's gonna be an extra week. You just know. Exactly.

Dale:

Or a co or a spirits competition.

Francis:

Yeah. Anyway, guys, this has been super fun. Yeah, terrific. Thank you very much. And, uh, it's been very valuable to our listeners because as long as they listen before the Belmont Stakes, they're all gonna get rich. Just the picks.

Pete:

That's the plan anyway, right? If anybody wants more of my act, by the way, in the Money Media YouTube channel or in the money podcast.com, lots of yapping about racing, but I sneak in drinks and our restaurant references as often as possible.

Mark:

We will see you at Saratoga this summer. we will definitely need to connect at first week of August when I'm up there.

Francis:

And Dale, we'll see you at Bar Conference Brooklyn, uh, in just a couple of weeks.

Dale:

I'll be at the Hendricks Bar from 12 to one 30.

Francis:

And so that guarantees that I'll be on the other side of the Hendricks bar from 12 to one 30 at the same time. Listen, everybody, hope you enjoyed this, special edition of the Restaurant, guys,, place your bets and we'll see you soon. I'm Francis Sch.

_1_05-28-2025_135023:

And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys. You can always find out more@restaurantguyspodcast.com. We'll see you next time. Happy Trails.