The Restaurant Guys
Mark Pascal and Francis Schott are The Restaurant Guys! The two have been best friends and restaurateurs for over 30 years. They started The Restaurant Guys Radio Show and Podcast in 2005 and have hosted some of the most interesting and important people in the food and beverage world. After a 10 year hiatus they have returned! Each week they post a brand new episode and a Vintage Selection from the archives. Join them for great conversations about food, wine and the finer things in life.
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The Restaurant Guys
Ruth Reichl, Critic in Disguise *V*
Current day intro and the interview is a Vintage Selection from 2005
The Banter
The Guys, in 2025, set the scene for this interview with Ruth Reichl, a newspaper restaurant critic who changed the landscape of professional reviews. The Guys share reviews they have received and ones they were glad they didn’t.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys interview Ruth Reichl to discuss the roles of critic and restaurateur and how they must stay focused on enhancing the diner experience. Ruth talks of hate mail, disguises and the enormous pressure on critics to get it right.
The Inside Track
The Guys finally got to talk to Ruth about whether to acknowledge a critic in your restaurant. If only she could have told them sooner…
Francis: You spot the restaurant critic in the dining room. My inclination is to go over and say hello. Like I say hello to everybody in my dining room.
Ruth: Well, you probably shouldn't.
Mark: Yeah, we're sure of that now.
-Ruth Reichl on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2005
Bio
Ruth Reichl started out as a co-owner and chef of Swallow Restaurant in Berkeley, California. She became the restaurant editor then food editor and critic at the Los Angeles Times. Ruth returned to her native New York in 1993 to become the restaurant critic for the New York Times where she rocked the NYC restaurant scene with her dual review of Le Cirque in 1993. She stayed until 1999 when assumed the role of editor of Gourmet magazine.
She has written a dozen books and has appeared as a judge on Top Chef Masters.
Currently, Ruth co-hosts a podcast and posts a food writer newsletter on Substack.
Ruth is a winner of six James Beard Awards as well as their Lifetime Achievement Award.
Info
Ruth’s podcast, Three Ingredients
https://threeingredients.substack.com/
Ruth’s Substack, La Briffe
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Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left in Captain Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hello, mark. Hey Francis. How are you? Hello, listeners. We have an unusual show today. So you know how normally on Tuesdays we release a new show. Thursday as we release a show from the archives Today we have a small interview with Ruth Reel, who was the New York Times restaurant critic for a long time. She's one of our favorite critics, and she was one of the most important critics ever to write for the most important newspaper, restaurant review at the time. This is from 2005, and she's smart and fun and funny, and what you did was historically important. even for us here in New Jersey, the New Jersey section, New York Times. Was the most important review we could get. Yeah. Well she's great and we look forward to talking to her later. And it's a, an interesting look at history and an important time and a really intelligent lady. She has a podcast of her own these days. I know that's out there somewhere. She's a smart, smart person to listen to. It's not quite as good as this one, but it's, it's you what could be Mark, what could be, you know? I think we also need to set this show up a little bit because it's a very different world 20 years later, right? There was no Yelp. There was no Google. There was city search.com, which wasn't that widely listened to. I mean, we look at, we look at now where you can go on and look at somebody's Yelp review. You can look at their Google reviews, you can look at their, their open table reviews. You can look on resi, you can look in a million different places and hear a million different voices. And there are still people reviewing restaurants, but their voices are one of many. Instead of one of, one of the, right, one of thousands and tens of thousands or one of three. But the other thing is that you had some really, you had some critics who didn't really know a lot. Mm-hmm. But they were okay. They knew. Knew at least something. But you had critics who really were foodies. I mean, the New York Times restaurant critic, that was Frank Rooney, Ruth Reel. All those guys, they really, Craig Warn, I mean all the people who came before them too, they really knew Gail Green, New York Magazine, Craig Labon in Philadelphia, Anthony Gilio, who wrote for Cranes, New York business and a number of other publications. These people really knew what they were talking about. So you were held to a high standard. but the, the review came out and that was it. You didn't get reviewed again for years. Mm-hmm. And they were so important to us. And I remember that Jeff Milgram Yep. Was a reviewer, was the reviewer. And he, they came in anonymously was it a first month or so? Oh, it was way too early to, to be getting a review. So he came in and he stood up at the end of his meal. He said, I'm Jeff Milgram from the Home News. And we went, huh. You know, oh no. And uh, he said, this was great. And we, we knew it was coming out. the following Wednesday. Mm-hmm. after work, we were open till two in the morning. Back then we went back to my house on Hartwell Street where the whole staff is in my living room. We're drinking beers waiting for the newspaper to come out, i. and then eventually we, we drove to the newspaper plant'cause it was here in, this area. Mm-hmm. And grabbed the newspaper as it left to go on the trucks. But we were petrified. I mean, it was our first review. We'd been open for six weeks maybe. I mean, it was literally the first summer we were open and it was so important to our lives. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I don't remember the review from five years ago. I don't remember that much about it, but that review that happened 33 years ago, I can quote it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I can quote that because Francis used to be the mare D one day, and I would be the bartender and then he would be the bartender the next day, and I would be the mare d And I will never forget. And we know which one he was talking about. when he said the jovial barrel chested bartender, no one, no one has ever accused me of being barrel chested and only occasionally jovial. I'm the jovial one. You are. You don't have to listen to this show a lot to not My favorite was jovial one in an earlier view. I forget which one. Maybe you can enlighten me. I remember one of the critics referred to something as Luscious. That's the same review. Yeah. Jeff Milgram. Yeah. But he wasn't talking about Mark, but Mark adopted the nickname Luscious for about a year and a half. I said, if anyone wants to call me Luscious, that is an acceptable nickname. No one took him up on it, but he reminded us all the time. And then, but I remember when the New York Times, review first came out and we got two stars from them within a year of opening about three stars 18 months thereafter. But I remember one of those times we went back to my house in New Brunswick. Just the whole staff came back and we're sitting on my couch drinking, waiting for the home delivery, at like five in the morning to my house. waiting for the paperboard to throw it up on the porch. And then we scrambled out and, and read our review that we were delighted to receive. And that's what would happen. We would have these, these review parties. We'd, you know, we'd close the restaurant at two o'clock in the morning and we'd go back to somebody's house. Usually Francis, he lived here in town. 20 of us would go back and have a party and open a couple bottles of wine, maybe more than a couple bottles of wine. It was like, wait, have some cocktails. It was like waiting for the theater reviews. You realize it was exactly like that. If, you have a memory of that or you've ever seen a movie of that, it was exactly like that the thing was people used to keep those reviews for a long time and so. I remember people would like put, if they wanted to go to a restaurant, they'd cut it out the article. Mm-hmm. And stick it on their refrigerator with a magnet or keep it in a file, and people would turn up with a review with a dish that you haven't made in two years saying, I want the macadamia and crusted tuna with mangoes. You're like. Man that went off the menu three and a half years ago, and I, I don't have any mangos. And that chef and that chef doesn't even work here anymore. That's exactly. But uh, they'd be shocked. Well, also because American restaurants had been, the menu is the menu. It never changes. And we were one of the first seasonal farm to table seasonal restaurant. Right. So literally the entire menu would turn over every three months For the season. And then specials would be, you know, the thing like strawberries that were good for two weeks or whatever the, whatever the ingredient was, and, and that people weren't used to that. But I, I have to say positives, there were, intelligent, good writers who knew about food writing, news, reviews, negatives. Let's look at some of the downsides So the New York Times used to come in on a full budget three times. So they, they were sure that you were getting a, fair shake at it. Some publications they'd pay their reviewers to come in. Once you come in on a bad night, everybody's got a bad night. You know, everybody has one bad experience That was unfair. Mm-hmm. Um, never happened to us, thank God. But, you know, could, you're living fear of like the, the waiter you're about to fire the chefs Last night, So anyway, so that was a downside. We were the beneficiaries of this quite a bit. We got a lot of four stars reviews from a lot of different publications, and I'm very grateful. But I believe, and I, I truly believe this, that I. A reviewer should not be able to give you one star or four stars based on one visit. Yeah. Should have to be at least two visits. You, you, you have to visit a place on different nights and different kinds of nights. Right? Because for a lot of restaurants, Tuesdays very different than Saturday. here's another thing that was different back then. Then today. So today we have influencers and we have the, the general views, but influencers, let's remember about influencers. Now I'm gonna piss off the influencers. Our, our scores are gonna go down. Influencers are paid most of the time now. Mm-hmm. there's been a couple of articles in, uh, is the Age of the Influencer over the Fine Pair Podcast. Just did a, a thing about that. I saw that podcast. I think the idea of an influencer and why it was powerful was because this was supposedly a civilian. Mm-hmm. Who was your avatar? Who was your Every man, your advocate? Who went in and said, listen, this is, and now influencers are largely paid. Right. So, and that doesn't mean they have any expertise, it just means they have a following. Well, it also means that they're, that they're no longer acting as your advocate, right? Yeah. As you, as the, as a viewer. I think that an influencer should be an influencer because they're the advocate for the consumer. Yeah. I agree. Right? If you're not paying, you're the commodity. it's a commercial instead of being what it began as. Yes. Which was for the, customer. Right. For the end user. that was why influencers became important. And what some influencers say is, yeah, I get paid as a, but I would never take anybody that I didn't believe in. And some of them are probably telling the truth, but what used to happen was, I don't know if you remember, but even in the more casual publications, there was a wall. Between the editorial side and the advertising side, I think some publications maybe didn't observe that wall. We, I think one in particular didn't do a great job observing that wall. Mm-hmm. But the journalistic ethics were. How your review and who got reviewed had nothing to do with who was advertising in the publication. Yeah. And that's what, that's one reason they were trustworthy. Mm-hmm. The, the way to sell the most papers in a restaurant review was the second best way was to have a top review, a four star glowing review that sold a lot of papers. Mm-hmm. What sold more was to have an evil review that excoriated. Yep. A terrible restaurant. People loved. It was like watching a, a, a car wreck or something. Well, restaurants for years have known this, right. We've, we've known. That the person who has a great time in your restaurant is gonna tell three friends about that. Right? Right. The person who has a terrible time or an awful experience is gonna tell 10 or 20 people. It's one of the reasons that restaurants bend over backwards to make sure people don't leave with a totally negative experience. And it's, in the old days, that was not. So you wouldn't write a review, but it was so you wouldn't tell those 20 people about the awful experience you had in that restaurant. Well, and the other thing is, frankly, it's easier to be funny when you're mocking someone. thank you for all those opportunities, Francis? I still remember, I have to say, I still remember some of the meanest reviews in my life. Of course you do. Yeah. The, okay, so it was, uh, somebody was reviewing, was it Ruth? Was Bill Grimes Who reviewed for the New York time, he reviewed Roy's, which was a pretty successful chain of restaurants that started in Hawaii. his opinion was that it didn't translate to New York at the time. Mm-hmm. And they didn't have the same ingredients and it wasn't very well executed, and it just became a caricature of itself. But he said, I remember he said if, if clowns had a cuisine. This would be it. Yeah, that's, I thought that's a tough line to have in your review, and that was a very expensive restaurant. It was a no star review. Yeah. They rarely gave no star reviews. Satisfactory was no stars. Satisfactory Just so you know, satisfactory means. Not satisfactory means. Satisfactory was no stars. Four stars was the highest. But I don't even remember. It's like when you ask your girlfriend how's everything, and she would say, fine. Yeah, exactly. It means not fine. It means not fine. Well, so satis, do you remember there was one grade below satisfactory though? Poor, poor. There were very rarely you could get a poor, and you know what that was? Minus negative one minus one negative one star. Really bad. I'll always remember Anthony Gilio and I, I, who's a friend of ours and, and has been on this podcast he's a fantastic writer and he wrote a review of a restaurant in North Jersey. I even forget what town. It was not very long lived. And the name of the restaurant was 2 0 1. Mm-hmm. Do you remember? 2 0 1? 2 0 1 was named after the area code. Oh yeah. That the restaurant was in and he got like terrible service and I don't remember exactly what it was, but the review was hysterical.'cause he got slighted at every turn in a very north Jersey Sopranos kind of way before the Sopranos. And he said in the end something like, I know the two oh one's, the area code. I wish I had the rest of the waiter's number'cause I, so I could call him because I can't get him to come back to the goddamn table. And, uh, he said it much funnier than I, but I, I remember that. That's good. You got, you got the gist. Yeah. Yeah, you did all right. You did all right. You made him proud. Well, anyway, so there were positives and negatives to the time of expertise. Things were very funny and I'm really looking forward to listening once again to this conversation we had with Ruth Reel at a different time and a different place. And a woman who made it. Big difference. We'll be back in just a moment.
Speaker 2:Good morning, mark. Good morning, pal. Mine. Pal, isn't it a horse? That's Palino. Palomino. That's actually a grape too. It's a grape too. Yeah. Cool. How doing, let's make that the last bad joke
Speaker 3:of the day. Uh, I doubt it. Alright, well, we'll try. I don't think so. Alright. Uh, Francis. So I, I was really encouraged today when I saw you pulling up in the stage left van. Yeah. I realize that you still don't have your car back, but the one thing I did realize as I'm watching you drive this 18 foot van here. Yeah, yeah. That the summon total of the seats of vehicles that you own is three. You own a two seat car, a one seat motorcycle, three. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm driving a van. I'm driving the stage left van, which we used to go to the fish market. It smells a little like fish for all you out there in radio Land. The thing it's not good thing you don't have the smell Amatic Radio now,
Speaker 3:now the morning makes a little more sense to
Speaker 2:me. Um, we have great guests today. We sure do. we have joining the show, Ruth Reel. Uh, Ruth Reel was the restaurant critic for the New York Times Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:For the national section.
Speaker 2:And she is now, uh, the editor in Chief of Gourmet Magazine and she has also written a book. She's actually written several books. Francis, are you aware of that? I am. But her most recent book is about her time at the New York Times as the most powerful restaurant critic in the world and the various disguises she used and the people she encountered. Actually, a very, very fun read. A tremendous, tremendous read. I just finished it last night and it's called Garlic and Sapphires by Ruth Reisch.
Speaker 3:That's funny'cause I finished at about 8 45 this morning. Said, oh no, she's coming on the show. I gotta read the last 20 pages. Last night's a relative term for us.
Speaker 2:Ur. Yes. So, so stay tuned to talk to the most, the formerly, the most powerful restaurant critic in the world who changed the way the New York Times reviews and changed the way that New York eats.
Speaker 6:We have Ms. Ruth Reel on the line with us.
Speaker 5:Ruth, welcome to the show.
Speaker 6:Thanks.
Speaker 7:Great to be here.
Speaker 6:It's great to have you on the show. We're so glad you came on. We've, we've both read your book and we both read many of your, uh, reviews. And, um, restaur read your read restaurant reviews and occasionally cringe and go, oh, you know, so it's a real emotional rollercoaster ride. The many of the words that you've written have taken us on over the years.
Speaker 7:Good.
Speaker 5:Yeah,
Speaker 7:I like that.
Speaker 5:It's always, it's always the most fun though to read the really great reviews and the really, really skating reviews. Yeah.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Everybody loves the bad ones.
Speaker 8:Are they more fun?
Speaker 7:Um, I. I think, I think they're easier. Mm-hmm. They're not more fun. Mm-hmm. You know, it's very easy to be negative about a place. It's, um, it's very scary to be really positive.
Speaker 8:Mm-hmm. Why is it scary? Throw
Speaker 7:your heart over the fence,
Speaker 8:Uhhuh,
Speaker 7:and then you steal yourself for the hundreds of. Letters you get from people who have terrible experiences mm-hmm. In those restaurants that you've loved. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6:Well, don't you get as many terrible letters, letters from someplace that you pan from people who love it?
Speaker 7:Not usually. Really. We rest returns are out there. No one sticks up for us. Well, you, you get, you know, a few. But they're not as, um, angry mm-hmm. As the ones from someone, you know, who's just spent,
Speaker 5:who's just spent$400.
Speaker 7:Um, you know, they're, they're, it's their big night out and you've ruined it for them. Mm-hmm. You told them to go someplace and it was terrible.
Speaker 5:Right. Can, can we talk a little bit about, uh. A review actually that, that you talk about in your book. Uh, that, that for me changed the way I, I look at restaurant reviews for, for the rest of my life that did both of the things that we're talking about. That lister review was just a momentous occasion, I think in the restaurant world where you, and, and we should tell everybody exactly what, what happened there.
Speaker 6:The, the review I, it's in, it's, it's seared in my brain. Was it? It was, it was a double review and it was, it was when. Ruth first came to New York as the restaurant critic and she still was unknown and had gone to ER in disguise when they had, there were a four star restaurant. And it was called the two views of, the dinner is an unknown diner and dinner is a most favored patron. Right. And Ruth wrote this double review of what it was like before she got spotted as a New York Times restaurant critic and what she got spotted after. And what and what the end of your, your review, you said basically. But if you're somebody and you get a check next to your name in the reservation book, go.
Speaker 5:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6:Uh, but if you're a nobody, maybe your 90 bucks is better spent elsewhere. And
Speaker 5:that was just, it was great. and I remember at the time you talking about the, the raspberries that got whisked away from under your nose. Right. As right as they were about to be served to you. As soon as somebody recognized that you, you were the New York Times restaurant critic. And I remember reading it at the time, just, just being totally in awe of, of that, of you,
Speaker 6:Ruth. What, what were the ramifications of that review? I mean, did that was a total, has that ever been done before?
Speaker 7:Not that I know of, but it, I mean, the genesis of it was that for years I would come to New York. I was in, I was a restaurant critic at the LA Times, and people would say, do you wanna go to er? And I would say, no, I'm not known there.
Speaker 8:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:And everybody understood that, that it was a restaurant that you went to if you were known, and um. So when I suddenly had to review it and I knew that they had a photograph of me and knew what I looked like. Mm-hmm. And so I, um, did the first of what turned out to be many disguises and went in there as this, um, humble, Midwestern woman.
Speaker 9:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:And was treated, I mean, two women and we are treated, you know, just the way you don't wanna be treated in a restaurant.
Speaker 9:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:Um, you wait a long time for your table, you get a terrible table in the back. The waiter, very lengthly, announces the specials to the person. Seated to the right of you, but completely neglect to tell you about any special.
Speaker 8:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:And of course, you know my favorite moment just'cause it was so irritating.
Speaker 8:I know what you're gonna say. Go ahead.
Speaker 7:The wine list. I know the wine list is one of those, you know, giant toes that takes a half an hour to read through. And I have it for exactly one minute before it snatched out of my hand by the waiter and given to a man,
Speaker 6:they gave her the wine list. Then took it away from her to give it to a man, give it back to her. It was a beautiful thing,
Speaker 5:Ruth. Well, I, I think that, that one of the things that everybody enjoyed about that review is we've all been to restaurants, E, even Francis and I are in the restaurant business, but if you don't know the right person at the right place, sometimes you can just be treated. And, and nobody wants to go and drop a lot of money in a restaurant and be treated awfully.
Speaker 7:No, I mean, as Molly, the, my disguise mm-hmm. Ends up saying, um, you know, I've come here for a glamorous evening. Right. And I've been humiliated.
Speaker 6:Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it's funny. First of all, what I wanna say about that review is. That really said Ruth reels in the house. Okay. There's a new critic in town and here I am. And you took a star away from them, right? I did. Yeah. And, and I thought you should have taken two.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I both, I remember when Francis, because actually Francis handed me this review and said, you have to read this review. It's the best review I've ever, I've ever read, ever. And he handed me the review at the time and said, you have to read this review. And it, it really, I think you stunned the restaurant world and, and for the better all to the good. Yeah.
Speaker 7:Well, the thing that was so amazing to me is that when I actually showed up as myself and I showed up 45 minutes early for a reservation.
Speaker 9:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:And he, I, it was just, you know, a stroke of amazing good fortune that Syria o says as he's leading me to the table.
Speaker 8:Oh yeah.
Speaker 7:It's my favorite line that, oh, mine too. Have it memorized. The King of Spain is waiting in the bar, but your table
Speaker 8:is ready.
Speaker 6:I love that line. But the King of Spain was really waiting at the bar, wasn't he?
Speaker 7:He was really waiting at the bar.
Speaker 6:He was. I didn't know that until I read the book, because I read that. I thought he was he using hyperbole. Mm-hmm. When I read the review. But then I read the book and I found out that the King of Spain really was waiting at the bar. He really
Speaker 7:was. And I, you know, I, I. Took my very elegant nephew with me and I said, oh yeah, sure. And Johnny turned around and said, no, no, that is the king of name. I saw him on TV last night.
Speaker 5:I, I'll tell you what, what I really, really enjoyed about the book, and, and Francis and I obviously read your reviews through throughout your tenure, uh, at the times. But what I really enjoyed about the book. Was seeing your perspective and seeing the critic's perspective. Obviously as, as restaurant owners, we've always had the, the restaurant owners' perspective of trying to, to do all these things, a to impress your patrons and, and trying to, to level the playing field. Although, although I'm a believer that your, your. Patrons who come and visit you every week deserve a, a little bit of extra attention and a little bit of, of, of feeling like they're a, a special patron at the same time. You can't do that to the detriment of, of your other patrons. Can I say
Speaker 7:the thing that that amazes me about restaurants is. I'm stunned at how easy it is to be nice. Mm-hmm. I mean, everybody understands that sometimes you have people who you can't get up from the table.
Speaker 8:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That
Speaker 7:you've booked a nine o'clock reservation and the people who've been sitting there since six 30, um, have paid their check, but they won't get up.
Speaker 8:Right? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:You know, we all understand that that happens and it's so easy, it seems to me to say to people, I'm so sorry. Um, we really, I. Uh, we're really unhappy about this, that your table isn't ready. Um, you know, can we give you a glass of
Speaker 8:wine? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:An apology goes so far instead of what you get 90% of the time is, you know, why would you think your table would be ready when? Mm-hmm. You reserved.
Speaker 5:The, the problem with that, Ruth, is you actually have to be sorry for it to come across the fact that you're sorry,
Speaker 6:you know, and all the, all the money that a respiratory spends on plates and glassware and linen and sculptures and all that stuff. If it's, if they gotta be, I'll go to a dive where they're nice to me. Mm-hmm. Before I go to a fancy schmancy restaurant where they're haughty. I mean, I don't go there for you to treat me like I'm haughty. I go to buy into the glamor, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think that you had a real effect on the whole New York restaurant community and made the restaurant community more aware of that. And I would like to talk with you more about that. I have to take, we have to take a short break, but I wanna come back and talk with you about how you changed how New York Eats. Will you just stick around with us? I will super. We'll be back with Ruth Reel, a former restaurant critic of the New York Times, author of the new book, uh, garlic and Sapphires, and editor-in-chief of Gourmet Magazine. In just a moment, you're listening to the Restaurant Guys, you're back with the restaurant guys and we're talking with Ruth Reel, author of the new book, uh, garlic and Sapphires, also editor in chief of Gourmet Magazine and was the longtime restaurant critic. For the New York Times, the most powerful restaurant critic in the world. Um, Ruth with that, with that first review that of Le Cirque, the two views of Ruth Reel, and then there on by, you know, your, your, uh, predecessor had pretty much stuck to French inspired European continental restaurants above 14th Street, and you started going to Korean barbecues and. Sushi places, Japanese noodle houses. And you changed the way that the Times reviews and you changed the way that New York Eats. What, how did you do that? I mean, what effect do you think you had on, on New York dining, or do you think that was coming anyway and you just reflected it?
Speaker 7:I think it was probably coming anyway. I mean, I think, um, I showed up here just at a time, I mean, with this very California sensibility since I'd been living in California for 20 years and you know, this real passionate interest in Asian food and a real sense of the kind of informality that was coming in restaurants. That, you know, it was, um, really California. It was, you know, people like Wolfgang Puck who said, wait a minute, things have changed. Rich people don't particularly wanna dress up anymore to go out to eat, and we can, you know, develop this new, more casual style and we can expand the menu. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 9:We,
Speaker 7:you know, really pay attention to, um, Asian cuisines that have never. Really infringed on high, high dining.
Speaker 5:Well, you know, Ruth, I think that a, I think you may not be giving yourself enough credit there,'cause I,'cause I think, I do think that your reviews had a, had a big part of that. But one of the things that they also had a big part I believe in changing was, and Francis alluded to this before when he talked about the, the haughtiness of, of that New York maitre d or New York waiter and. We've seen a lot of that change over the last 15 years, and I do think it's a reflection of, of diners, but I also think it's a reflection of, Hey, I'm gonna get panned if, if I, if I come across with, with the wrong attitude to the wrong person. And I, and I think that was a really good thing.
Speaker 7:Yeah. Well, I think there's no question that everybody knowing that I was going out in disguises and that, that, you know, frumpy little old lady, um, you just dis that might show up. In print.
Speaker 6:Love that. It's, um,
Speaker 7:you know, I think it, I think it terrified people. Mm-hmm. Well, sure.
Speaker 6:Every time they walked by Leer, they saw Sir MA's head on a spike, and they thought, and they thought, be careful. Ruth Rice may be here in disguise. And I think, but that did a lot. My parents used say, well, we're not going out to dinner in New York because they had been mistreated. My dad's a fireman. Right. You know, and it's like, you know, he would go and, you know, we always say about the way we, we do our restaurant, you know, there are people that come into our restaurant that can afford to eat there every night, and there are people that save up their pennies to come there. Once a year or twice a year, once a month. And those people, it's almost more important to make sure that they have a great time. Exactly. Because it's more important part of their, their lives. Well, we had,
Speaker 5:yesterday we were celebrating graduation and, and I told, I had a meeting with the staff before. I said, you're gonna have diners tonight that have never eaten in a restaurant like this before. You need to make sure that they have a special time and that their evening is perfect. This is, this is a graduation day. It's a very important memory for them.
Speaker 7:Well that's, I mean that's, I wish every restaurateur felt that, because I do believe that you have a kind of contract with your guests. Mm-hmm. Sure. That you're gonna give them more than just good food. And I think that's the thing that I really changed was that, um, I really. Believe that restaurants are kind of theater. Yeah. And uh, instead of just focusing on what was on the plate, I really talked about the theater of dining. Mm-hmm. and I think that that was a big change.
Speaker 6:Well, it's the whole experience, and I think I remember that people really rebelled when you started writing about the whole restaurant experience. They said, focus on the food, focus on the wine, as if it's some sort of a contest. And we talk about the same thing. We talk about the a hundred point scale with wine a lot, and the, the sort of, the problem with using such a severe shorthand. I want, can I read a little bit from your book? Sure. Uh, there's a quote in here that I love. It's, it's your husband. Talking to you that you quote in the book. He says, I remember that when you got into this, it was almost a spiritual thing with you. You love to eat, you love to write, you love the generosity of cooks and what happens around the table when a great meal is served. And so that's sort of the, I I think the guiding principle now is it's, it is the whole experience that's important.
Speaker 7:I. Right. And I think it always has been. It just, it needed someone to point it out and say, mm-hmm. You know, if you have had a, a terrible time, if you've been treated badly, uh, it doesn't matter how good the food is. Mm-hmm. The evening is ruined.
Speaker 6:Yeah. You, you know, we had heard rumors and, and here we are, uh, asking you in person, we'd heard rumors that when you first came to the Times, you, you sort of didn't like the star structure that you, that the Times had considered abandoning that. Is there any truth to that rumor?
Speaker 7:I hated the star structure. Mm-hmm. And actually had a discussion at one point with Joe Eve about it, and he said, well, we'll entertain the notion of getting rid of it if you want. And I said, look, as a writer, I. I loathe it because look.
Speaker 9:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:I really want people to read the reviews. And if people open up the newspaper and see one star and go, well, I'm not gonna read a one star review, why would I give anybody one star?
Speaker 5:Oh, I always read the One Star reviews, Ruth, on the Satisfac piece and the Pores, because they Painful news. That box tree review was just, oh, well, that everybody liked that. Well, that's what I
Speaker 7:made. The one stars be not good. So people would read them.
Speaker 8:Right. And then, you know, two
Speaker 7:stars you'd read.'cause maybe it'd be a restaurant you'd wanna go to.
Speaker 8:Right.
Speaker 7:But, um, you know, as I said to him as an editor. I think you'd be crazy to get rid of the star system. Mm-hmm. Because it gives the paper a lot of clout.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7:Every time you write a four star review, you know, some it gets press all over the world. Ah, new four star restaurant in New York. So why would the paper give it up? Right. And after all the paper is trying to sell newspapers with those reviews.
Speaker 5:Is, is that extra pressure for you? I mean, the difference between one to four stars could mean tens of millions of dollars for, for a restaurant. Is, is that extra pressure for you to. be more careful with how you're reviewing and maybe not give somebody one star who may deserve it or not.
Speaker 7:Um, I mean, the pressure is always there and it's not so much about the STAR system. I mean, the, the, the pressure with the STAR system for me was I. Um, you don't want to give people unreasonable expectations. Mm-hmm. So I always felt it was better for a restaurant to write a glowing review with two stars and have them say, oh, she's crazy. You know, um, this is a three star restaurant.
Speaker 9:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:Then write a three star review and have people go in and say, is she, is she insane? This is a three star restaurant. Right. Um, you, you have to think about the impact. You know, how people are gonna. Take that in. So if you write a piece that really makes people wanna go there,
Speaker 6:that's the most important thing.
Speaker 7:That's the most important
Speaker 6:thing when when we come back, I wanna ask you a question. We have a lot of restaurateur in our listening audience, and I wanna ask you a question that's relevant to them. So Ruth, this is a short segment and again, we're talking with Ruth Reel, uh, editor-in-chief of Gourmet Magazine, who was the restaurant critic for the New York Times and has a new book out called Garlic and Sapphires, which you can find out more about by signing onto our website
Speaker 5:Entertaining insightful book.
Speaker 6:And you can find out more about more to buy this book on our website later on Um. Ruth? Yes. As a restaurateur, we had an experience years ago where I recognized a, prominent local restaurant critic, and I just, I know who the person is. I served her well. She,
Speaker 5:she had introduced herself to us a few times on several occasions,
Speaker 6:case and I, you know what? I, I'm the maitre DI walked over and I said, oh, hello, Ms. Blank. Uh, how are you? And, and she was mad at me and has never written a kind word about me since. And I, I've seen her socially. What is a restaur? I mean, yes, I, I see why you want to be in disguise, but what do you think that the, if you're a restaur. You spot the restaurant critic in the dining room. My inclination is to go over and say hello. Like I say hello to everybody in my dining room.
Speaker 7:Well, you probably shouldn't. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 6:we're sure of that. Now. I should have been born in the Midwest. Um,
Speaker 7:I'll tell you why. I assume that this person was with other people.
Speaker 6:One other person who I also knew, right. Um.
Speaker 7:Because it, it was odd. I did a restaurant radio show in Chicago a few weeks ago, and this is some, the, the person I was with had been reviewing restaurants in Chicago for 16 years, and he assured me and his audience that nobody in Chicago knew who he was. Well, I mean, that's ridiculous, right? Of course, they know who he is, but he has this pose that nobody knows who he is, that he doesn't have to wear a disguise. Nobody has a clue who he is, and every time you go up and say hello in front of other people, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You are putting the lie to that uhhuh. So, you know, my notion is you just, you treat them very, very well and pretend you don't know them.
Speaker 5:Yeah. That, I mean, that was it. I felt like I would be a bad, and I just an example, I felt like I would be a bad maitre d having at the, at this particular reviewer at the end of when, when they're doing a review, and I've been in the business for about 20 years now. And when, when she would finish a review when she was on her last visit, she would give you a credit card with her real name on it. And that was kind of her signature of, of how she would let you know that you, that that was the last visit that you were done and you were going to be reviewed. Frankly, I thought that I would be a, a bad maitre d if you've introduced yourself to me five times over the last 15 years, and I don't remember any.
Speaker 7:Well, it's a very odd situation. I've never heard of anyone, um, who planned to keep the job for more than two years.
Speaker 5:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7:Actually introducing themselves to rest return. Right. Well, like I said,
Speaker 5:this person didn't introduce themselves, but they gave you a credit card. Well, well, that's the same thing, right? Yeah. It really
Speaker 6:is. Hey Ruth, we wanna thank you for taking time outta your busy schedule at Gourmet to be with us and talk about your book, which we recommend that everyone should go out and buy today. What, what a
Speaker 5:delightful time we've had with you, Ruth, really appreciate it.
Speaker 7:Thank you very much. My pleasure. I, I
Speaker 5:hope you'll come back and do it again with us sometime.
Speaker 7:Gladly. Alright, take care. Okay, thanks. Bye. Bye-Bye. Thanks very
Speaker 5:much. That was Ruth Reisch, everybody, editor in chief of Gourmet Magazine former restaurant critic of the New York Times and author of the new book, garlic and Sapphires. And the book is great and
Speaker 6:fun and funny and she reprints, she has recipes in the book. Mm-hmm. She has. Uh, whole reviews her best reviews in the book and excerpts from her reviews, and she talks about the amusing things that happen. As those reviews went on, my favorite, my favorite. You know, you gotta, like, even though I'm aur I feel sympathy, but when, when she pans somebody, it's, it's funnier. It's just, it sells more papers. Her, my favorite quote is, uh, when she reviewed Tavern on the Green very poorly and she quotes it as a guest of her saying it was a museum of things that she never have been made. Yeah. That's great.
Speaker 5:I just need to read it RA quick. Today the box tree is a pretentious place serving. Fancy, not very good continental food for$86 a person price fix. But one thing has changed. The service used to be genial. Inattentive. Now it is as pretentious as the setting ouchie.
Speaker 6:Ouch. Fun book read. Go out and buy garlic and sapphires. You're listening to the restaurant guys. I'm Francis Sha. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys. Central Jersey 1450. Time is 12 noon.