The Restaurant Guys

Teaser! Bill Grimes: Straight Up or On the Rocks

• Jenifer Pascal

Share episode

This is a Vintage Selection from 2005

The Banter

The Guys discuss the issues with destruction of certain animals and why eating them may be the will of the divine.

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys are thrilled to welcome respected food and cocktail writer Bill Grimes to talk about the story of the American cocktail and Bill’s next book on the history of dining in NY. Bill tells where we've been and who helped us get here.

The Inside Track

The Guys relied upon Bill’s book Straight Up or On the Rocks while they built their cocktail bar (which is now the longest-running craft cocktail bar in the world!) While the three take their cocktails seriously, Bill thinks all drinks can play a part.

Bill: A cocktail that's like a well-made entree where the flavors are meaningful in relationship to each other and give pleasure because there's a certain tension or balance. But I'll also say there's a role for sort of the nutty, crazy, stupid cocktail too. I think a cocktail is a cocktail. It should encourage all kinds of kind of wacky inventiveness 

Mark: You believe that that the fuzzy wuzzy woo-woo does have a place in our society and serves a purpose?

Bill: It’s the price you pay for freedom.

Bio

William “Bill” Grimes is a longtime contributor to The New York Times. He has served in numerous editorial and writing capacities—magazine writer, culture reporter, and restaurant critic.

He has written many critically acclaimed books on food and drink: Straight Up or On the Rocks: The Story of the American Cocktail (a foundational cocktail history), and Appetite City: A Culinary History of New York 

His work earned nominations like the James Beard Foundation nod for culinary journalism.

Info

Bill Grimes NYT Cooking

https://cooking.nytimes.com/author/william-grimes

For recipes: TheGuys@restaurantguyspod

The Martini Expo!

Presented by the award-winning publication The Mix with Robert Simonson 

https://martiniexpo.com/

Sept 12 & 13, 2025 @ Industry City in Brooklyn

Join us for martini experiences with acclaimed guests (see martiniexpo.com)

Restaurant Guys Regulars get a 10% discount. Subscribe at https://www.restaurantguyspodcast.com/ 

Our Sponsors

The Heldrich Hotel & Conference Center
https://www.theheldrich.com/

Magyar Bank
https://www.magbank.com/

Withum Accounting
https://www.withum.com/

Our Places

Stage Left Steak
https://www.stageleft.com/

Catherine Lombardi Restaurant
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/

Stage Left Wineshop
https://www.stageleftwineshop.com/


To hear more about food, wine and the finer things in life:
https://www.instagram.com/restaurantguyspodcast/
https://www.facebook.com/restaurantguys

Reach Out to The Guys!
TheGuys@restaurantguyspodcast.com

**Become a Restaurant Guys Regular and get two bonus episodes per month, bonus content and Regulars Only events.**
Click Below!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe

Francis:

Hello, mark. Hello Francis. How is getting to work today? Uh,

Mark:

it was a little bit of a wild ride from Cranford, New Jersey, big traffic jam in Cranford this morning. All

Francis:

seven

Mark:

cars are in the road here, about 40 ducks cross on the road. They were taking their time too,

Francis:

not moving for anybody. Which begs the question, why did the duck cross the road? Oh, that was the chicken. Awful. Awful. Did you, did you really have, have you have a

Mark:

duck problem in Cranford? Well, you know, we did have a duck problem in Cranford, and, and it was this, this big issue about three years ago, and they, and they came in with the, the, the county trucks and they gassed in Union County, New Jersey, a lot of ducks. Mm-hmm. And one of the things I never really understood. Yeah. They destroyed all the ducks instead of. You know, using them as part of the food chain. Mm-hmm. They destroyed the ducks. You wanted to have a duck hunt in

Francis:

Cranford

Mark:

New Jersey. Exactly. Forget to bear hunt. I want a duck hunt.

Francis:

Oh, everyone. Keep your kids at home. Hide under the bed. We're letting men with guns out to shoot the ducks in populated cranford, New Jersey maybe bows and

Mark:

arrows. How's that? But, but seriously, we, I mean, it just seemed like such a waste. I mean, they, they caught thousands of ducks across the county. Gas them because I mean, they were having problems with health problems and things like that in the city. Water supply. Well, you too, of a concentration

Francis:

of ducks or geese. You get, you get problems with, you know. Duck refuse. Yes, as it were. Duck refuse.

Mark:

Nicely

Francis:

done.

Mark:

Uh,

Francis:

duck litter

Mark:

actually is what we can call it. But, um, but yeah, so, but I, I don't get it. I don't get why we wouldn't use that. there's all these people talking about animal rights, all these people, and we, we just wasted these ducks.

Francis:

do you think that maybe they, because the gassing, the ducks is. More humane or more painless somehow, you know,

Mark:

I don't, I don't know, but wouldn't, shouldn't we save all those ducks that we're eating now and, and eat these instead?

Francis:

Yeah. I never understood. I also, I also don't understand the people who are against the, um, the deer hunts and the bear hunts in Jersey because, well, there's too many deer. And there are too many bear, and I'm, we know we're all about sustainability. Sure. Um, and we're all about humane meth. We're not

Mark:

saying, we're, we're not saying wipe out the bear or wipe out the deer or wipe out the geese. We're duck.

Francis:

But like, but like we say, listen, sometimes you can't build a condominium development because you, you impinge upon a species that you might eradicate from the face of the planet. Sometimes there, you know. This, a species goes out of balance. Right. And you know, deer used to have natural predators, right? I mean, there used to be lions, you know, so there aren't, there aren't any many big cats in the suburbs bringing down the deer. No. And so the, the population explodes to an unhealthy level.

Mark:

And to where the deer are actually starving to death. You actually have in, in, in some populations in New Jersey, deer that in the past. Deer that starved. Before. Before, before. But I mean, they have hunts now that control the deer. Yeah. They're still outta control though. Princeton. If you live, I mean, forget Princeton. Yeah. Okay, now, now Cranford, we, we make fun of cranford, but cranford iss a, a little city uhhuh, there are deer all over Cranford. There are rabbits all over Cranford

Francis:

actually. And the problem got so bad because there are no

Mark:

pre predators.

Francis:

The problem got so bad that in Princeton they wanted to have a limited licensed hunt mm-hmm. To, to get to call the deer, you know, and there was a lot of opposition from animal rights groups, and I, I never quite understood that. Mm-hmm. Animals have predators, okay? Mm-hmm. And they're, they're supposed to live in the wild. And what the natural end to most animals' lives is to be eaten by another animal. Mm-hmm. Whether that's a human being or not a human being. I mean, animals don't retire to Florida and watch TV and, you know, pass away in their sleep surrounded by their family. That's not how animals die. Well, some animals die that. The

Mark:

humans. Me also, also the ones that we crate up and, and put in our back and put in the back of the station wagon and drive down to Florida.

Francis:

But I, yeah, I, I, I don't understand the opposition there to, to using those animals in the food chain. I think there's a, there's a fundamental disconnect. Mm-hmm. And I think it's the same reason that people don't, why the family farmers threatened mm-hmm. Um, is because people think the chicken comes from a. A cellophane wrapper. Right? A little plastic bag in ShopRite and chicken comes from a chicken, everybody. Mm-hmm. And that's why, you know, we're against factory farming because they. Pump those chickens, which are real animals. I'm not against killing animals for food. I'm, I'm for it in fact. Right. But to raise an animal humanely for it in, in a way that that has, it is consistent with its nature and then to kill it hu humanely for food. Mm-hmm. I don't have a problem with that. That's the way, I mean, if I don't kill that chicken, the dog is gonna kill the chicken right over the fox. So, but the, with agribusiness farms, what they do is they cut the chicken's beaks off so they can fit them in a factory farm cage, and they don't peck each other to death. Mm-hmm. And then they pump them full of antibiotics and they

Mark:

pack so many of them, you wouldn't believe that they would put this many chickens in one cup,

Francis:

and then you get an unnatural amount of litter from the poultry. Mm-hmm. And, and it fouls the, the water and the land, and no pun intended. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A foul with a U And you know, that to me is unnatural. That's what we're against. But, you know, hunting the deer when we have too many deer so we can kill them and may as well have a stake out of it. I don't get it. Yeah.

Mark:

Again, what the thing that bothered me about that, that the, the duck and mm-hmm and goose hunt was that they didn't use, that, they didn't use the product. The product was, was destroyed and wasted. Right. what you're saying to is that other geese and duck will be killed for food as well as these instead of these instead of them. Well, and you know, and that just seems wasteful to me

Francis:

and what I think is really weak. I mean, I think it's morally weak. Okay, so everybody get your hate mail email ready to go. Okay. Ill leave vegetarians out there. I feel like I got one ready to go. Oh, right at you right now. Go ahead. Um, I bet, I bet. My email, my inbox is filling up as we speak. I think it's weak to, to say, oh, well, killing animals is always wrong. Well, that's an easy. And I think cowardly choice to make because there come, there comes a time when it's inhumane not to call the deer population. Mm-hmm. It's inhumane not to call the bear population. It's

Mark:

worse to let them starve to death, I think, than it's to and spread disease. Mm-hmm.

Francis:

Among each other. And also they can jump to humans. Um. And, and, and when you have, uh, geese and ducks that, that foul the water supply, that become a real health hazard to human beings. There comes a point where you have to, to step in and the humane thing is to be a rational human being. Mm-hmm. And realize that sometimes we need to kill animals. Did you say irrational human being? No. Irrational. Oh, okay. Human being. And sometimes we need to kill animals and. I, I think it's, it's weeks. Oh, well we can never kill an animal. I, I don't, I don't, I don't get it. Well, you

Mark:

know, you know my motto there a lot. I, I happen to know a lot of people who claim they're vegetarians and still eat seafood and things like that.

Francis:

Yeah. We, you know, my motto,

Mark:

my, oh, what's your motto?

Francis:

I'm sorry.

Mark:

Is where, uh, you're gonna eat 12 shrimp. Right. I'm gonna eat one, 200th of a cow. You know my motto,

Francis:

God, if God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them outta meat. Yeah, that's good motto. We're gonna be talking with Bill Grimes, former restaurant critic for the New York Times, author of a, a book, cocktails on cocktails and, um, general bfi. In just a moment, you're listening to the Restaurant Guys, Hey, you're back with the restaurant guys, mark Pascal and Francis. Shot from Stage Left Restaurant in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and we have a special guest today. Bill Grimes was once the drinking man columnist for Esquire Magazine. He writes for the New York Times where he was restaurant critic from 90. 1997 to 2003. He's al also authored among other works, our favorite book on cocktails, straight up around the Rocks, the Story of the American Cocktail. And he's currently working on a new book about the history of dining in New York. Hey Bill, welcome to the show.

Mark:

Thank you. Good morning, bill. Hi, how are you doing great.

Francis:

Thanks for taking the time to, uh, to come and talk with us. You know, your book, um, straight up around the Rocks was instrumental when we put our restaurant together. It was, we, we built our cocktail list around you, right? Right around

Mark:

the time your book came out is when we opened.

Bill:

Oh gosh.

Francis:

Yeah. you're really fascinated with cocktails and you write really well about cocktails. But I want to ask you, do you think you have a problem?

Bill:

I, uh, I, you'd be surprised how little I drink, but Little but well. Little wood. That's right. You know, to target your opportunities.

Francis:

We're gonna put your book up on our website later so people can find it. I highly recommend it. It is, um, it used to be called When I bought it back in 93. Was it, that it first came out? Yeah, it was around 93. Mm-hmm. Um, it was called, uh, the story of the co It was, um, was it straight up around the rocks? A cultural history of American drink?

Bill:

Yes. You know, the second time around when I bought it out, I had a chance to revise it, Uhhuh, uh, make it a little more up to date. Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Correct.

Bill:

A couple of errors,

Mark:

Uhhuh.

Bill:

And um, and I thought that subtitle was a little highfalutin.

Mark:

Yeah, I'm

Bill:

a

Francis:

highfalutin

Mark:

kind of guy. I liked it. And Bill, you don't, you write for the New York Times, you don't make errors.

Francis:

That's right.

Mark:

Occasionally you're misquoted, but that's it. That's right.

Francis:

Now your book and what people should know about this book, what's interesting about it is there are cocktail recipes in this book, but it's not your coffee table cocktail book. It's about putting. Cocktails in a cultural context, what ever inspired you to to pursue that line of inquiry?

Bill:

Well, when I was doing the uh, Esquire column. The tack that I naturally fell into was to try to figure out, when I would write about a particular cocktail, I try to figure out, well, where did this thing come from? And I wound up going to the library trying to do research, trying to separate myths from fact, which is very difficult to do,

Speaker 6:

especially in cocktails. Especially

Bill:

in cocktails. And gradually I developed this kind of running folder of historical material about the American cocktail. And at some point, uh, it, it seemed. That it could support a book.

Mark:

Mm-hmm. That if

Bill:

you could try to string it all together and give a continuous story of cocktails as this uniquely American form of expression and. Try to explain how it started and how it developed and where it seems to be going, that that would be kind of a satisfying read and nobody had done it really.

Mark:

Yeah. I, I think what some people don't realize is that, uh, most of the, the literature about cocktails had been written by drunk people.

Bill:

It reads that way.

Francis:

You wrote, and I, and I want you to talk about cocktails being uniquely American. I want to tell you, I'm just, um, on our first cocktail menu, we used a couple of quotes from your book, um, from the original book you quoted, HL Mankin, um, as saying, uh, he, he called Mankin, called the cocktail, the greatest of all the contributions of the American way of life to the salvation of mankind. And then in the inside flap, you wrote commenting on that quote, you said Mankin did not live to see the fuzzy navel, the screaming orgasm or the teeny weenie woowoo. And perhaps it's just as well abominations like the jello shot remind us that standards do matter.