The Restaurant Guys

Brown & Miller Talk Cocktail History and Bartending Legends *V*

• The Restaurant Guys • Episode 134

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This is a Vintage Selection from 2013

The Banter

The Guys tell a tale of someone being bamboozled. The question is, who?

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys are joined by cocktail historians Jared Brown and Anistatia Miller who share stories from their book The Deans of Drink and where you can go today to see a Harry Johnson bar. They tell of their experiences renovating Musée des Vins et des Spiritueux.

The Inside Track

The Guys were thrilled to have Jared and Anistatia on the show and found they all enjoy a little wordplay.

Anistatia: We would not have cocktail shakers if it hadn't have been for the Germans bringing in the doppel foss backer.

 Francis: I thought that was just when you saw someone who looked a lot like someone else. 

Jared: If you see one that looks a lot like another one, that would be the doppel foss backer's doppelganger. 

Jared Miller & Anistatia Brown on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2013

Bio

Jared Brown and Anistatia Miller are the award-winning duo behind Mixellany Limited, publishers of influential cocktail and spirits books. They’ve co-authored more than 30 titles.

Beyond writing, they created the Mixologist journal series, and contribute to leading publications such as Imbibe. Brown also serves as master distiller at London’s pioneering Sipsmith Gin, and together they’ve consulted on award-winning spirits worldwide.

Info

Museum of the American Cocktail -https://www.southernfood.org/motac

Musée des Vins et des Spiritueux-http://www.euvs.org/en/

Jared & Anistatia’s site

mixellany.com

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Mark:

Good morning, mark. Hey, Francis. How are you? Just ducky. Thanks. How are you? Yeah, I'm doing, I'm doing pretty well. I, I, we did read a, a disturbing article in the Newark Star Ledger not too long ago.

Francis:

We mean the one where I crumbled up the newspaper and threw it across the ah, or you went ta. I guess, I guess we're talking about the same article. I

Mark:

handed Francis an article recently. Um, and, and the reason I think that Francis and I were both irritated by the article is it was in the section called Bamboozled. And, and no matter where you are in the country, I'm sure you have some, either, either your, it's the consumers, it's not on the job. We're gonna go and take those merchant who are trying to rip you off and Exactly. Get your stuff back and we're gonna get your stuff back. Exactly. And, and I have to say, the article itself was written fairly. Uh, fairly, but this is int the but bamboozled. But the fact that it was in the bamboozled section was an issue. Bamboozled is

Francis:

like where the newspaper art, uh, team goes out because you brought your car to the lube place. Right. And they said they changed your oil, but they didn't change your oil. Right. Somebody,

Mark:

they said you had a new carburetor and you looked under the hood and there was an old carburetor. Exactly. And, and.

Francis:

And this doesn't qualify as that, I don't think. Okay. So tell the story. Alright, so the story is, I will, I will excerpt from the article. It was in the Star Ledger by Karen Price Miller, who's a very good reporter, by the way. I agree. And has,

Mark:

and has actually solved some, some great people who were truly bamboozled.

Francis:

And I, and I don't think, and I don't think she got this one totally right, but well, we'll see. The Star Ledger, um, a April, 2013, uh, comes out, it came out on April 1st actually. And, and it says she starts off with this column isn't an April Fool's joke. Like, this is so crazy. That implies to me that she's saying the actions of the restaurant are, are like a joke or like, are so crazy. You might mistake them for a joke. Um, Jack and Toby Litsky are vegans. When they both turned 50 last year, they decided to battle high cholesterol by becoming vegan. Um, da. Um, so they, yada, yada, yada, I believe yada is what you were looking to say. They, uh, just, well written article. We, we've got only a certain amount of time, so, um. They came to learn that not all pasta is adver advertised as a hundred percent is act a hundred percent whole grain actually is so and so they've taken to bringing their own pasta to Italian restaurants,

Mark:

which is true. You should know that if you, if it says whole grain pasta, it doesn't mean it's a hundred percent whole grain pasta. Right? Same thing with uh, whole wheat bread. If you're, if it just says whole wheat bread, it does not mean it's a hundred percent whole wheat bread. You need to make sure it says a hundred percent whole wheat bread

Francis:

on it. Right? Okay. So the way they've dealt with this is they've gone to at least 50 or 60 restaurants in the past year and a half, and we've never had an issue. Okay? Uh, we give them a box of pasta and they drop it in the water and we ask if they use red marinara tomato sauce, or we ask for mushrooms and onions and peppers if they have it. Um, and if they've never visited the restaurant before, they call to make sure the kitchen can accommodate them. Okay? Oh, very reasonable. Very reasonable. All of it. Very reasonable. Um, to make it easier for servers and chefs, the IES took to writing down their dietary needs and cooking instructions on cards, which are handed in when they place their order. Okay? It's a little much, but, okay. A little man.

Mark:

But you know what? A lot of restaurants get it wrong. So I understand why you might, might be afraid. I mean, you know, France and I have talked in the show about a thing called Restaurant scars. We understand that you come from other restaurants sometimes and with scars from the mistakes they've made

Francis:

and, and it's cool. It's fine, and we would certainly accommodate that. No, no problem at all. Um, and here's a quote from Mr. Lipsky or Lipsky. What they typically do is give us a discount. If a pasta dish is$15, they'll charge us 11 or 12 because we brought our own. We don't ask for the discount, but they usually give one. Um, I think that's because you're catching the restaurant off guard. Mm-hmm. And they haven't thought it through. Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Yeah. Continue through the whole article. We'll, we'll talk about, he said

Francis:

the restaurants typically split the uncooked pasta into two servings, which is a box of pasta, which is more than enough to satisfy him and his wife appetite. Therefore, meaning they don't order appetizers and they don't order desserts. They just have the pasta that they brought. Um, the first time they visited Monticello at Red Bank about a year ago, Lisky said he called ahead to explain their needs and make a reservation for six on a Saturday night. Everything was great the first time. They charged us$12 each for pasta. A month later, they returned with four co diners and another box of pasta, and they were charged that amount again. And then on February 23rd with four new friends and a$50 coupon from restaurants.com. They expected the same thing because in their view, Monticello had set a precedent. Uh, and so they assumed they would be charged the same thing. Of course, they didn't come with a coupon the time before, but Correct. They set a precedent. Uh, Lisky said, uh, some of his party ordered chicken, some ordered fish, and the veal Parmesan lisky handed the waitress. Now they haven't called ahead this time. They handed the waitress a box of pasta on a middle of a busy Saturday night with their$50 coupon, and explained what his wife wanted. When the orders arrived, he noticed the pasta portion sizes were smaller than usual, and he said it looked like only half the pasta was cooked. Um, it had mushrooms and onions and olives, a new addition to their diet, which they liked. But he said the olives had pits and were hard to eat. He didn't complain, uh, but he, and he said he enjoyed the meal with his friends. When the bill came, he thought things weren't right. He saw the chicken dishes were 23 or$24, and the fish was 23 and the pasta was 24 each. He asked the waitress to double check thinking it was supposed to be maybe 24 for both. When the waitress returned, she said, no, that's the price. Uh, he has to speak to a manager. Manager said, no, that's the price. He has to speak to the owner. He said, the owner is also the cook. She's cooking. It's the middle of Saturday night right now. Mm-hmm. So, uh, he said, well, I'll wait. I'll wait until she comes out. So 10 minutes later, the woman stops cooking in a restaurant in the middle of a Saturday night to come out and talk to him. Uh, and the quote is, according to him. And this is odd. They, she, he says that, she said, you've come here on a Saturday night and order a custom meal. Um, I have to charge you, I have to charge you at least the price of a regular meal. Of a regular meal. And he says, but you've already set the precedent. You charge me a lot less than that on a several occasions. And she said, I didn't know about that. That was the old manager's decision. Um, but this is the price. Um, Lisky said he argued that a different price should have been disclosed, but he had never asked the price. Mm-hmm. He just assumed the owner insisted he pay the entire bill. Lisky said the pastas on the menu range from 17 to 24. He was charged 24. Um, and he said he offered to compromise and pay 18. Uh, and the owner said, no, pay the bill, or I'm gonna call the police. He said no, she called the police. He explained to the police, the police said, pay the bill.

Mark:

Pay the bill. Or be arrested.

Francis:

Or be arrested. Um, so he then went home and, uh, disputed the charge with the American Express, called American Express to dispute the charge. Um, so then this reporter from the Star Ledger reaches out to the owner. Uh, the owner says, listen, I don't even have a$12 pen pasta on my menu. Mm-hmm. Why would I charge'em$12? Um, if I did before I, I'm, you know, that was a mistake. uh, she didn't say that. That's my editorializing. she said she offered to sell a pasta dishes for$20 each of the time, but she wouldn't honor the$50 certificate.'cause the$50 certificate says doesn't work if you have a customized dish. Which is every, which, right? I know that website and that's true. Okay. Um, plus she said she didn't understand why Listy disputed the entire bill. He said he didn't mean to dispute the entire bill. And then, um, they, came to a compromise. She charged him when the paper got involved, she charged him$18.

Mark:

here's what, what's happening now, some of our listeners right now are saying. Well, it should be less. They brought, the bulk of the ingredients to the restaurant. And some of our listeners right now are saying, why would you expect to pay less? And I, I believe that it's Francis and my, it's our purpose here in this show to give you the, the restaurateurs perspective.

Francis:

But the resters is your side of the story. And so

Mark:

that's what I want to do Let's look at the numbers of this. I think most of us would agree. You come in on a slow Tuesday night and you bring your own pasta and we deal with that and it's slow, and I make a year dish on the side. There's no real cost. I understand why they only charge'em$12. I wouldn't have done that, just so you know. I would've charged you the regular price of the entree. Right. So the pasta with marinara, whatever that is on my menu, that's what I would've charged you for. Yes. The pasta that you brought, but let's talk about the cost to the restaurant, bringing your own pasta in on a busy night. Well, let's, let's take an average restaurant. Which runs with a six burner stove and a pasta machine, pasta maker. Okay? And, and that pasta maker basically is a, something that speed boils water,

Francis:

just keeps a lot of water hot for a long time without having to recover.

Mark:

Okay? So let's say in that six, six burners on a Saturday night, all six burners are going all night long and the pasta maker's going all night long. A gluten-free order comes in. One of the burners is now out of the out of the circuit.'cause I can't use the water in the pasta machine that's got gluten in it because I can't use the water in the pasta machine. It's got gluten in it. So now I, now I begin to boil your water. And for I now have one of my burners takes 12 minutes to bring your water to a boil gluten-free pasta. Anywhere from another 10, 12 minutes to cook that pasta. Another six minutes to do whatever I'm gonna do in the pan. Toss it, plate it. Put it in the window. So I've now taken one of the six burners for 30 minutes

Francis:

outta commission on Saturday night, out of

Mark:

commission on Saturday night, and, and where I'm making your food. Every entree goes in a pan for about six minutes, one way or another. That means that six burner area is putting out 60 entrees per hour by taking one burner out for half an hour,

Francis:

50 entrees per hour.

Mark:

It's now putting out. Well, yeah, 50 entrees per hour now, or 55 because it's only a half an hour, depending on how busy I am. Either every patron in the restaurant is waiting four more minutes for their entrees, right? Or I am serving 55, 56 people including you instead of 60 people in that hour. There's a cost to that on Saturday night, right? Saturday night is prime time. You've cost me four, but your two entrees have cost me four other people being able to have dinner in my restaurant. Awesome. During that hour, now you've come in

Francis:

or you've, or you've caused people, you know, maybe less or you've caused people to wait, have wait at the bar. Correct. But, but, or you've caused four people to wait 15 minutes at the bar.

Mark:

So either you've added. Half an hour, four people to wait to half an hour at the bar. So either you've added a cu another customer's dissatisfaction or you, you've reduced the number of people that I can serve in the evening. Right. It's one of those two things. Right. Now you, what you would like is for me to serve you to is to, is to charge you less. Okay? You're a regular customer. I want you to keep coming. You came on Thursday, you came on a Tuesday, that's great. So I'm going to accommodate this request even though it's causing. Other issues for, for my customers to think that that should be discounted. You are not counting the other cost to my business, right? You haven't made my life easier. You've made my life harder. You don't understand that. So now I'm gonna go into the restaurants.com thing. So now, so forget about, so, so that's, if there's no coupons involved, that's just regular, you've either cost me four other customers that night or you've cost. Four customers to wait 15, 15 minutes. And

Francis:

what he means by four other customers is sometimes when you say to people, Hey, I'll have a take for you in 15 minutes, they say, especially in a town like Red Bank, lots of restaurants, they say No, we'll go someplace else. Exactly. And that's, and that's how you lose those four customers. Mm-hmm. Because you say or, or in a more likely scenario. Makes sense everybody. Where normally you'd say to a lot of people, I'll have a table for you in 15 minutes. Mm-hmm. Most people are gonna say yes, but if you were running at the 15 minute wait and now you say, I'll, I'll have a table for you in 30 minutes. Right? They say, no, we'll go someplace else.

Mark:

So, I mean, these are real numbers. This is real life, restaurant owning, restaurant running tho these are the kinds of things that you need to consider whenever, whenever you make a decision in your restaurant, you have to consider the numbers of, of the restaurant, period. So. Now you've, so, but I wanna accommodate my CU customer. I always want, I always want my customer to leave with smile on their face. I always want Yep. To do whatever I can to make that customer happy. So I do it, but I can't discount that. And then again, I to discount that restaurants.com. Now, I, I'm not exactly sure how restaurants.com goes, but let me give you a Groupon as an example. Okay? Groupon, you pay 50 cents on a dollar. Well, Groupons takes half of that money. So, so they keep 25 cents on a dollar. Not that we've ever done Groupon, but they've approached us, so I, so I know how, and we said, get away from you how their formula works. So basically, if you use a Groupon, the, the place is gonna get 25%, 25 cents on the dollar. So now you've asked them to take half the money of a regular entree. You've asked them to take 25 cents on a dollar. So basically what you've said is, I want to pay you$4 an entre. Even though I'm costing you four entrees when I walk in the door, right. That's just unreasonable. And what I understand is I understand the patron doesn't understand the the back of the house business, right? The people who listen to this show probably are more in tune with something like that.

Francis:

Think about this, you know, when, how much does the box of pasta cost?

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Francis:

A box of pasta costs. Even gluten-free pasta.$3.$3. But the pasta. So say it was, I was gonna charge 20 bucks for a, a bowl of pasta. Well, honestly, the pasta in that pasta cost me no more than it cost you. I pay wholesale, it cost me less, right? So the pasta in your pasta really only cost you a buck, right? So you're like, oh, here. I'll, I'll pay it for the pasta. And then you don't get the pasta or the markup on the pasta. Mm-hmm. And, and here's the thing. Restaurants run these days. This is real number 7% profitability is doing great, which means of every a hundred dollars that comes in the restaurant at the end of the year hasn't profit seven buck. I I can't discount your bill like that. Mm-hmm. And what that means is 93% of the money's being spent on something. Typically in an Italian restaurant like that, you're talking about a 27, 20 8% food cost. So. Of that a hundred dollars,$28 is food costs. Well, you know that and, but you've only got$7 left. Right? So$65, 65% of your, look at

Mark:

Francis doing math on the fly for

Francis:

you

Mark:

guys.

Francis:

Okay.

Mark:

It's

Francis:

happening. 65% of the cost of your dish is not the food at all. Mm-hmm. And with pasta. Honestly the, there is a high gross profit margin on pasta, which is why pasta is less expensive than the other things.'cause we need to make a certain number of dollars per person that comes through the door because we have to pay for a certain number of chairs. We have to pay for a certain number of tablecloths and linens and the heat, and chefs and chefs and

Mark:

people and waiters. And that's the part that I think sometimes that people don't understand. this is the, the part that this person didn't understand, certain dollar per person that I have to bring in on a Saturday night.

Francis:

Right. You come in and you order a pasta and you tell me you're on a gluten-free diet, it means you don't order an appetizer. You don't order dessert. If you come in and sit at a table and then you give me a coupon that you paid 50 cents on the dollar for, and I get 25 cents on the dollar for, if you come in and spend 20 bucks, I get$5. Mm-hmm. And then you wanna through$4 discount. Yeah, there comes a point where the restaurant has to say, Hey, no, I think the person bamboozled here was the restaurateur. I think the restaurateur had the press come in and and say, listen, right? She needed to compromise or it was gonna get written. Bad things about her. I think the restaurateur was totally right here. So where are we going for dinner this week? Monticello in Red Bank, I want you all. If you are in a striking distance of Monticello at Red Bank, I want you to go to dinner at Monticello in Red Bank. Order something off the menu, pay the full price and thank the chef.

Mark:

and enjoy it and enjoy the restaurant and its ambiance. And

Francis:

the owner's last name is Gian Bazo. Please tell her the restaurant I sent you. We're really curious to hear what you think. Whatever you think. Feel

Mark:

free to disagree with us. Yeah, because we disagree with each other all the time.

Francis:

We'd love to know what you have to say. We'll be back in just a moment with a great guest. Stick with us. Hey everybody, welcome back. It's the restaurant guys, mark and Francis. And our guests today are Anastatia Miller and Jared Brown. Uh, you may have read any of their 30 books on cocktails that they have written before, including Shaken, not Stirred, a Celebration of the Martini, um, their Master Work, the Two Volume Spiritist Journey, a History of Drink. Charts, the history of spirits and mixed drinks from 7,000 BC to the 20th century. These guys are fantastic. They write for food arts, wine, spectators, cigar, Fido, and their new book is The Deans of Drink, the Amazing Lives and Turbulent Times of Harry Johnson and Harry Cradock.

Mark:

Anastatia and Jared. Welcome to the show.

Jared:

Thank you. Great to be here.

Francis:

Well, it's great to have you on the restaurant guys, uh, for the first time. We've read a number of your books over the years and we seem to run in the same circles because we are ships passing in the night in many different places. And, uh, when I read your current book, I just, I had to have you on the show to talk about it. I think it's inspired and interesting and different. The title of the book is The Deans of Drink of the Amazing Lives and Turbulent Times of Harry Johnson and Harry Cradock, as Seen in a New Light. What's the new light?

Anastasia:

Uh, the fact that both Harry's actually tell us a lot about the bar industry and the history of the bar industry, and how someone who you see as being a bar legend can actually be living quite a dramatic life in the background. You know? So besides making a profound effect like Harry Johnson did in introducing remove cocktails, documenting, remove cocktails for the first time in history, he was also one of the people who. Um, experience what it was like, uh, dealing with prejudice. In the industry.

Francis:

Well, talk to us about that.

Jared:

It wasn't easy being a German American, uh, coming into World War I and even before, so he was facing remarkable prejudice. But the, the new light that, uh, you asked about. Was delving beyond the books that they wrote and deeply into their personal lives.

Francis:

Well, and you guys are historians, uh, by trade. I mean, that's, that's sort of a signature of, of everything you've written. Uh, you do a wonderful job contextualizing things. I do like that. in a couple of different iterations, having included recipes in this book. But we can talk about those later. Uh, my last name is shot. I'm mostly Irish and I'm, I'm a quarter German, but my German grandfather, old man shot. he called your German grandfather. Old man shot. That's what they called him. Grandpa shot would you prefer, but he is not your grandpa. Don't call him that. Um. he was, he was a cop in town. He sounds so loving. Old man

Mark:

shot.

Francis:

No, I never met, I never met him. I never, I never met my, my grandfather, but he was, um, he was a cop in town, in a town where his family had been for many, many years. And, you know, there were rocks thrown through his windows in his house. uh, it, it's funny to think about for me, prejudice against the Irish prejudice against, the Germans it's insane to think about it, but you talk about how it was really hostile here as World War I approach to.

Anastasia:

Well, it was, it was basically hostile from about the 1860s when Jerry Thomas was running around New York as well. And if you were Irish, good luck as far as, you know, if you owned a saloon, you were the first people the police would come and crack in on.

Speaker 3:

Yep.

Anastasia:

Um, if you, if, if there was going to be any trouble, they'd look at the bartender and go, you are, you're the cause of it. And you're Irish and you're definitely the cause of it. And the same thing happened with the Germans. Because here with Germans having, uh, these little beer gardens and families would go there with their kids and have a very pleasant time, but good grief, they were German, you know, they couldn't speak English properly. It's, it is one of those dark points in, in American history that people don't think about, and it's very pertinent to the bartending industry because in fact. In New Jersey. In New York, most of the establishments are either owned by the Irish or the German.

Francis:

and as you talk about in your book, that's because they brought some of their European, alcohol culture to puritanical America. And, and yeah. I

Anastasia:

mean, we would not have cocktail shakers to be quite honest with you. Uh, if it hadn't have been for the Germans bringing in the doppel fos backer, the Jared loves talking about the Doppel Foss backer.

Francis:

that

Jared:

the cocktail shaker was invented somewhere around 1870 because that was the first American patent for a cocktail shaker

Speaker 3:

uhhuh.

Jared:

The truth is they had these, uh, interlocking metal cups in German taverns back to the 14 hundreds, and I can't imagine. German tavern owners having these interlocking cups sitting around for centuries without having to put, having put them to any use

Francis:

and, and what did you call them again? A doppel. What?

Jared:

Doppel Foss Becker, which translates to double barrel beaker.

Francis:

I I thought that was just when you saw someone who looked a lot like someone else and they were, oh, that's, it's different. I guess that's different.

Jared:

See, one that looks a lot like one, that would be the double fo Becker's Doppel gang.

Francis:

Got it. You know what, thank you for going to the next step with that. I appreciate that. Now

Speaker 3:

the,

Francis:

the, usually when I call somebody a fo backer, I mean something completely different. Another question I have about American bartending is the sort of the what, the knowledge we grew up with, or the knowledge that I have ingrained is that one of the things that set the American cocktail apart was its use of ice, which of course implies a shaker as well. Um, talk to me about ice and, and where that, did that come from Europe as well? How, what was the relationship of ICE in Europe and in America?

Anastasia:

Nope. Now that is the one true thing that we believe. Was the, the high point of American contributions to, to drinks was the fact of Frederick Tudor, who was a Bostonian. Mm-hmm. Came up with great idea of selling ice from Walden Pond and Wyn and Lake, where there's this beautiful crystal clear ice. And they actually went out, sawed the stuff, brought the horses in, brought the carts and a bunch of hay, and took the ice and went out and sold it. I mean, talk about. The most unbelievable business plan on earth,

Speaker 3:

right? You

Anastasia:

live in a place where there is plenty of beautiful crystal clear ice, and you just chop it up and sell it to the rest of the world.

Speaker 3:

That's

Jared:

pretty smart, and he

Anastasia:

really

Jared:

did sell it to the rest of the world as well. In 1806, Frederick Tudor made his first ice shipment from Boston, and he sailed that ice all the way to Martinique. On arrival, he realized he should have probably built an ice house first. So he had a bit of a fire sale on his ice.

Francis:

Oh, so when he, he got it there, but when he got it there, there was nowhere to keep it.

Anastasia:

Exactly. And, and the irony is it's the next place he went. The next year was to Cuba. And Cuba was one of those places that instead of the hospitals and. Doctors who really appreciated it.'cause it was the only, the only relief that anybody who had yellow fever could have was being, being cooled off with ice. Cuba had another group of people who went absolutely passionate for the stuff. It was the bodega owners, the guys who owned bars.

Francis:

Yeah, sure. And

Anastasia:

they loved it.

Francis:

You know, I always remember when I first traveled to Europe when I was, you know, 24 years old, and I went, and I, I don't dunno what I ordered, and I said, I don't have that with ice. And there was one lonely cube floating in my drink, and I thought, can I have 30 times?

Anastasia:

Actually found one

Francis:

yes no. And I was like, can I, they're like, you want soda with ice? I said, here. And he reached with his little tongs and he put two ice cubes in my soda. And I thought, are you serious? And then I saw what they meant by a sandwich and I really was like, what the hell are you guys talking about

Mark:

after coming, I, I lived at. A summer in Europe. And after coming back, I remember the two things I wanted where I wanted a drink filled with ice and a shower curtain.

Jared:

A shower curtain. Are you insane? Yeah. They, they're just in desperately short supply of shower curtains in France.

Mark:

Yes. I, I, I didn't get it. I didn't understand that. But we

Anastasia:

had to smuggle a shower curtain, um, from ikea, and because we were living in France, working on the restoration of the museum. And, uh, walked into the apartment and went, Hey, guess what's missing? Well,

Francis:

we should talk about that for a moment. You guys are co-founders of the Museum of the American Cocktail with, um, so many of other of our friends, including Dale DeGraff. Uh, and you also have just finished a project opening, a cocktail museum, elevation Museum in Europe. Wanna tell us about.

Anastasia:

Well actually, uh, the museum was already standing since 1958. It was, uh, founded and built by Paul Riccar or Au Kar and uh, it was on his private island Eel de Band Door. No one had actually opened the doors and seen what was inside of this museum since 1964. And, uh, we had someone who actually called us up and said, Hey, do you wanna come down to yield Band Door? And, you know. Well check it out. And it's in the Riviera, so it's kind of cool. And I went, okay, let's go. Well, they opened the door and then they locked us inside. Um, and after they took our jaw off the floor. Yeah. Which it was literally on the floor.

Speaker 3:

Why? What did you see for

Anastasia:

10,000 bottles? Murals, hand painted murals all over the building. It was literally a cathedral to wine and spirits that had remained untouched until we walked in in 2006.

Francis:

And then what did you guys do to it to get it open?

Anastasia:

We cleaned, restored, photographed, documented, looked up histories, cataloged everything. Mm-hmm. Uh, then, then Jared, for some reason, found in one refrigerator. Room in, in this old, uh, butcher shop area, found about 1200 menus dating back to the 18 hundreds.

Mark:

Wow, that's great.

Anastasia:

So to put it mildly, every summer for three years, uh, we spent, was it five months?

Jared:

Well, the first year we were there for nine months.

Anastasia:

Yeah. The second

Jared:

year we were there for six. The third year we were there for. Five months.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Jared:

Um, and in the meantime, doing a lot of traveling, uh, either with presentations about the museum or working on building its education program or occasionally getting to work on further acquisitions. We added another thousand bottles to the collection while we were there.

Francis:

Who now, who endowed this museum? Where does the money come from?

Jared:

From

Anastasia:

the recall family.

Francis:

Ah, they have some, I hear they've got some, they've got some of the cash laying around

Anastasia:

a dollar.

Francis:

And is it now, is it now open to the public?

Jared:

It is open to the public in the summer. so I believe it's just from through July and August

Francis:

Well, and so can we get a website or How would people find out? Oh, yes.

Jared:

If you wanna have a look at the museum, you can check it out online@www.euvs.org.

Mark:

And we'll put that on Restaurant guys radio too.

Francis:

So yeah, check under the show@restaurantguysradio.com and we'll link you there. If you're driving, don't, don't get in an accident trying to write that down. We'll have it for you when you check with us later.

Anastasia:

Well, that it's a lot easier than trying to spell out the actual name of museum.

Francis:

Yeah, yeah, I figured, I figured that that was really wise. We will spell out the actual name. Well, one of our assistants will spell out the actual name of museum on the website. There you

Speaker 3:

go.

Francis:

Um, so let's go back to your book. Your book was really fascinating. It's, it's split into two parts. Harry Johnson and then Harry Cradock. And. Craddick and Harry Johnson's careers overlapped. Harry Johnson sort of was coming to a close at the, at the beginning of Harry Creed's career. Um, what's, what's the lineage there? What happened? What did each man bring to the profession? What, what was different about them?

Anastasia:

Well, um, you can say that, that Harry Johnson. Was actually the man who truly did document America's contribution to a style of drink, which was for most cocktails, uh, the martini, the Manhattan, keep going. Um, he was the first one to actually document those drinks and encouraged people. To to look at how many different variations now you can do it. I mean, there was like, was it five different variations on the martini alone?

Jared:

Yep. Yep. What skills did he have in the book?

Anastasia:

Uh, 200 something.

Jared:

Yeah. A lot of people talk about Jerry Thomas being the father of Modern Bartending.

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm. But

Jared:

in terms of the cocktail, in 1862, Jerry Thomas included 10 drinks under the name, or 10 drinks under the Heading Cocktail Harry Johnson. Had somewhere in the neighborhood of 250.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Francis:

Yeah. You know, that's what really struck me when I, and I do know the history of some of these, uh, guys before. And, and one of the things that I, I found very interesting was it, it's about these two guys, but there's a whole cast of characters including Ada Johnson and all the other, bartenders that were contemporaneous through both of these men's lives. And what I really found wonderful about this book was it sort of contextualized these stories in relation to each other. I think sometimes we, we get a false impression that Jerry Thomas started cocktails and did it by himself for 25 years, and then other people began where, whereas that's not really the case. And you really get a sense of that with his book.

Anastasia:

No, it it, well, you see, that's the thing it, I think, because once you latch onto a hero. It's kind of hard to, um, look for other heroes or understand, how many different facets the person can have. I mean, it's like, Jerry Thomas was the closest thing to the ultimate flare bartender in the world. Mm-hmm. He was a showman. He was a show off. He beat his own chest constantly. Harry Johnson seemed to be more of the intellectual type. He was actually much more of a businessman. I mean, you've gotta figure he was spending a lot of time, especially after 1888, where he was doing consulting work. With other restaurants and other potential bar owners and trying to teach them how to train up staff and da da da da da. So he was a lot more of the really boring, murky kind of guy. the funny thing is, is both Johnson Andre were kind of murky like that. You know, Ooh, let's keep an index box of every single drink that, you know, a customer comes up with or he came up with or he found because he'd been trained to do it and you know, who else would sit there and obsess with a database.

Mark:

But, but those are the people who are so important when, as a historian, that to look back on because those are the people who are cataloging all of this information for us so that, so that we can look back at it.

Jared:

And thankfully Harry Cradock was going one step further and was a vocal defender of the cocktail and of drink in general. Uh, during prohibition, there were grumblings in Europe as well, and in England there were people speaking out against the cocktail as being detrimental to the individual and detrimental to society. And then there were letters from Harry Cradock to the newspapers laying down very logical arguments for the cocktail.

Francis:

And what kind of arguments would he employ?

Jared:

He was pointing out that the cocktail was very beneficial to the digestion when taken one cocktail before a meal. He was pointing out that, uh, people generally had better health if they had one or two cocktails a day.

Francis:

I knew I'd like this guy.

Mark:

Well, it's something that we've since

Francis:

proven, I mean, with scientific facts. Yeah, sure. You have to have a drink. Is is is a good thing. I, I think also he was traumatized though. He, he had been bartending in New York and Prohibition. Mm-hmm. He was one of those bartenders who had to emigrate, who got outted.

Anastasia:

Well, yeah, I mean, here he, he thought that he'd found, you could imagine this guy came from a wool mill town, And, um, yeah, he had, he was gonna be doomed to either be a weaver and a textile mill, or a tailor, or, you know, a yarn maker or something. And he, he just wanted to be something more. So when he came to the US and he found himself the perfect job Co. Okay. So he did lie about how much experience he had when he first got started, and of course everybody took him to task for, but you know, I can't think of a single person who starts out in the bartending industry who hasn't lied to get his first job as a bark back.

Mark:

That's funny. His,

Jared:

his

Anastasia:

first

Jared:

customer. Did take him to task. Uh, the first customer, Harry Crad ever served, walked up. Harry had just stepped behind the bar because the bartender had walked away and he wanted that job. So the customer said, give me a tin roof cocktail. And Harry said, uh, I'm sorry. I don't know that one. The customer said, oh, no problem. I'll walk you through it, and told them how to mix it. And then Harry looked at him and said, why is it called the Tin Roof cocktail? And the customer looked at him and said, because this one's on the house.

Mark:

That's

Jared:

funny. Ouch.

Mark:

You know, it's, you know what I, I like The, the little pun here of he had to spin some yarns in order to not spin yarn.

Francis:

That's, that's a really great,

Anastasia:

oh, that's very good. I like that one,

Mark:

Francis, the look on Francis's face. He doesn't like it as well as you two do. I think it's

Anastasia:

a,

Francis:

a reach like I've never heard before, but I'll, I'll go along if everyone, if you out goat me,

Anastasia:

I'm not happy with that one.

Francis:

I was thinking back on that line to get your first bartending job. I think that's harder to do now because the information is out there, when I, when I started looking for a job as a bartender, no one ever hired a bartender that didn't have experience. Now that math just doesn't work, right? Yeah. I mean, on the face of it that you would never hire someone who didn't have experience and in New York bars, you would never hire anyone without New York experience Now. Yep. That, that just doesn't work'cause they can't inject you with experience. fortunately my cousin owned a bar and, uh, I, I pushed the envelope a little bit. He did actually train me behind his bar for four or five days before he said that I was his bartender, when I had been his waiter. and that helped. Yeah, it really helped. And I got my first job and I was there not a month when a guy named Chip, who was the number one customer of this very nice restaurant, I remember Chip walked in. And this is back when you could smoke indoors. he used to eat dinner there four or five days a week. Lived in the hotel across the street and the luxury suites drank, spent a lot of money there. And, um, he kind of took a liking to me as like the new green bartender. And he put his very, very big, very, very expensive, very, very Cuban cigar down in the bar. And he smoked it for a couple of minutes, then it went out. So I threw it away and, uh, he, he really, ouch. I almost lost my job that day. Yeah,

Anastasia:

that would be one way of doing it.

Francis:

And, uh, he's like, well, I, I, he went out, he's like, yeah, it goes out. A lot of times he's like, that's a$25 cigar back in 1986. And I thought out, out, out. And I, but I didn't lose my job that day, but I should have. And, uh, that was my beginning mistake. And Chip still liked you? Yeah, we got, we amazingly enough. Chip still liked you. We recovered from that, but it took a little while.

Anastasia:

So, um, um, I always felt lucky that, that, uh, when I went for my first bartending job, which was a hell of a lot earlier than that in 1968, uh, that I got lucky because my dad had taught me how to make a drink

Speaker 3:

Uhhuh.

Anastasia:

So when I walked into this bar in Chicago on Rush Street, and they said, okay, so show me how to make a whiskey eyeball. Good grief. Lot of technique there,

Speaker 3:

right. Um,

Anastasia:

all I had to do is that fill out an application, prove that I was over 16, and, have a Polaroid taken of me

Francis:

a Polaroid to

Anastasia:

see whether or not I looked right for the job.

Francis:

Oh, that's awesome. That's illegal now.

Anastasia:

Yeah, I know. Thank God. Yeah, it was kind of cool back then because he said and went, wow, I actually look. Okay, great.

Francis:

That's funny. Well, you know, we have to take a quick break, but I hope that you'll stick with this. We'll come right back and I, I do want to talk about some of the contemporary bartenders in your book. This is a brilliant way to, to organize this, the contemporary, uh, bartenders in your book and their takes on, on these two iconic, uh, bartenders from history. Can you stick with us for a little bit? Sure. We'll be back in just a moment. You're listening to us on the restaurant, guys@restaurantguysradio.com. we're having a lovely conversation with Jared Brown and Anastatia Miller. Their current book is The Deans of Drink, the Amazing Lives and Turbulent Times of Harry Johnson and Harry Cradock. Um, you can find out more about the book and actually pick it up. We'll give you the link on our website@restaurantguysradio.com. Please go there. we were talking before the break about the content in the book is really great. Both with the historical recipes, putting'em in context and the, you know, it's an engaging story about the life of these guys. you know, it traces two lifetimes, two generations of, of bartending and, and cocktail culture, uh, in, on two continents. But what I've never seen before is you went to a lot of contemporary bartenders, uh, many people who we know and respect, and you asked those bartenders about. How these guys influence their bartending, and their cocktail making. And then they also give some sort of tribute drinks to, uh, Craddock and Johnson. First of all, how did you think of that? It's a brilliant idea. And then talk about some of the, more interesting cocktails and, and contributions that you got in those sections.

Jared:

Cocktail making and bartending though it's got a great history, it's also a living history. Uh, when people talk about a cocktail renaissance or a cocktail golden age, we're in the midst of the greatest cocktail golden age in the history of bartending

Speaker 3:

here, here.

Jared:

Uh, there's no question without a doubt. The bartenders, uh, have reached back and brought back the professionalism that we saw with Jerry Thomas, with Harry Johnson, with Harry Cradock. Uh, that's back into the profession, but they've also got social media. They can communicate as never before.

Speaker 3:

Right. Right. So a

Jared:

bartender in Brisbane comes up with a fabulous new take on a classic, 20 minutes later it's being tested at the Artesian Bar, at the Langham Hotel in

Speaker 3:

London. Right, right, right. And

Jared:

then it leaps over to a place in New York.

Speaker 3:

Yep,

Jared:

It's just, it's wonderful to see. Passion traveling at those speeds. And so we just, we couldn't resist reaching out and letting a lot of other people who love these same historic bartenders join us in a tribute.

Anastasia:

it's also the point of trying to get people to understand that a certain level of universality, not homogeneity. Sure. Uh, attached to a lot of classic cocktails. And rather than just replicating it, uh, the person's taken it, done some regional fixes. Just because how it's different in every single country, every single place you go. And, uh, but, but definitely keeping the tone, the flavor, and just making it much more familiar and more comfortable to the person's customers. that was the point we wanted to make.'cause there was a certain point in our history back in the nineties where everybody wanted to replicate precisely what they had in Ike. In a book. Yeah. Well that is kind of useless because the booze is better now.

Speaker 3:

Right? The

Anastasia:

ingredients are better now.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Anastasia:

so we'll never be able to replicate perfectly any recipe you find in any cocktail book.

Jared:

thank goodness, because basically what we have today is better drinks in the end than they had. A hundred years ago.

Francis:

You know, I think it's interesting from an anthropological perspective to try and replicate what was there. we started our cocktail program in 92 and we were looking at historical recipes or even recipes from other bartenders, and we rejigger them slightly.

Mark:

My own recipes change depending on what ICE I'm using or how if the lime is sweet or not sweet.

Francis:

Oh. Or you know. Oh yeah. And the other thing is, what I think a lot of folks are think have been realizing now is in, in. Depending on what brand of spirit you use. Mm-hmm. You know, there's, there are tequila and there's tequila, there's gin, and there's gin. You know, and,

Anastasia:

oh, don't remind me. Well, I mean, you guys know Quila

Francis:

we changed tequilas. We had a tequila from a very respected brand that changed ownership recently, and The first thing that went was their sort of B level tequila. That was our house tequila, which had been a great buy and gave the flavor we wanted for our recipes. And all of a sudden our cocktails were different. And even if it had gotten better instead of worse, it's still different and you've still gotta change the cocktail, you know. So talk to us about who were the people that you spoke to in this book who you thought, wow, that person made a great contribution

Anastasia:

Uh, Alex, Alex Ena and Monica Burke. Alex Ena is the head bartender for the Artesian Bar at the Langham Hotel in London.

Francis:

Been there several times. Uh, his

Anastasia:

girlfriend Monica, is uh, the bar manager for the aquavit. Bar in Oslo, Norway. Huh. And, you know, just watching what happened when the two events said, okay, here's two different takes on exactly the same concept.

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm. I had

Anastasia:

to congratulate them for batting heads.

Speaker 3:

Right, right.

Anastasia:

Backwards and forwards.

Francis:

Do you remember the drink that Alex contributed?

Anastasia:

Cima.

Speaker 3:

And,

Anastasia:

uh, in Chrisman, but Chris Anima and it's, uh, Benedictine, Sue Bruno de uh, and a Salvatore d Stein.

Francis:

What is that last thing you just said? I, right

Anastasia:

now,

Francis:

and

Mark:

So those of you listening may not have heard of Sue's before. Sue's is now available in the United States. Again, it's, it's, uh, Ian be out there bitter. Yeah.

Francis:

Delicious.

Mark:

I

Anastasia:

used to have to bring it in, uh, from the UK for my friend Audrey Saunders.'cause she couldn't get any unless she was over here and, you know, visiting and just sticking more stuff in her luggage or over.

Francis:

Do you want hear, do you wanna hear something a little parallel in our lives? There was a time when she, the Pegu Club first opened that. They for some reason didn't have, Laird's bottled and Bond Apple Brandy available in New York. And I met what Really? Yeah, the bottle and bond wasn't available for like six or eight months. And so all they could get was the regular stuff. And so I would bring some like in a trench coat and be like, here's the bottled, you know,

Jared:

fabulous. In the back.

Francis:

It's not as, not as exotic as yourself. Well, listen guys, I think the book is terrific, uh, and I, and we're, and we recommend it very highly. If you're listening out there and, and listening to land, and you want the title one more time, it's the Deans of Drink, the Amazing Lives and Turbulent Times of Harry Johnson and Harry Cradock. Those are not the only people in this book. There's a cast of. Characters from the days of your and a lot of great contemporary bartenders. Um, there are tremendous recipes in this book, um, which you should use as a guide and, and adjust yourself in your own way. And if you look at the contemporary bartenders, you should visit their bars at some point. If you can. You're in striking distance and you'll find yourself at some of the best bars being serviced, some of the best bartenders in the world.

Jared:

If you want to drop into a great legacy bar, Harry Johnson's nephew. Opened a place on 36th Street and sixth Avenue, New York. It's still open today.

Francis:

What's it called?

Jared:

Keen Steakhouse. Oh.

Speaker 3:

Oh,

Francis:

that's funny. Yeah, I've, I've spent many an evening that I remember the beginning of at Keen Steakhouse. That's funny.

Jared:

And if you peek, if you peek behind the bar, that's basically. The bar as illustrated in Harry Johnson's bartender's manual.

Francis:

That's really fascinating. It's wonderful. That,

Mark:

and, and now you just put, you just connected two dots for me. Thank you very much. Yeah, that was

Francis:

really great. That's really great. Anastatia and, and Jared, thank you for joining us on the show. Your book is great. You've been great company. Thanks for having us and uh, thanks very much guys.

Anastasia:

Thank you for inviting us

Francis:

and I'm sure we'll see you around on the circuit. You guys stick with us. We'll be back in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant guys@restaurantguysradio.com.

Mark:

I

Francis:

like those guys.

Mark:

They're great. Yep. That was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun. Well, they're, they, you know, they really know their history.

Francis:

They do. You know, I've loved their books. We've crossed paths with, we've been within 10 feet of them. Mm-hmm. Probably 30 times and just. For some reason we've never, we've never really connected. I, I was

Mark:

actually out a seminar at Tales of the Cocktail that Anastatia was one of the panelists. Uhhuh,

Francis:

well, they're super smart people and they're super fun people we know now, and their books are great. I really do recommend it. It's funny, as you're looking at all this stuff, one of the things that's been very important is I remember our friend Duch Zark once said at a seminar that he and I were giving together. Um, and he, he was talking about bartending, bartending versus mixology and he said, listen, you have to bartend, you have to tend the bar. And that means tending the people at the bar and then bringing them the drinks and you need to have that expertise to make the drinks to, but you know, he said, there are so many guys. And I said,'cause we, this discussion started when I was talking about. I was at a place and these guys were mixologists, but they weren't bartenders and they were pissing me off. I'm like, you make an excellent drink, but I think you're an asshole. I'm never coming back here again. Congratulations. You know, as opposed to, Hey, this drink isn't very good, but that's a really nice guy. Maybe I'll come back someday. You know, if you can only have one, I'll take the bartender. And Duchant said to me, uh, and it's, I can't do Duch, Sean's accent, but everything has a little more weight in Chen's accent. And he said, you know, the world is full of all these people that, uh, instead of learning how to take care of people, they try to know exactly how many. Hairs Jerry Thomas had on his mustache, and they think that makes them a good bartender. there was for a time, and this is gratefully, this is fading away. A number of people who were so interested in looking at the past, knowing everything about the past, and recreating the past that that you lose the point. You know, cocktails are not a museum, but you look at the past to be informed about the past, to make that part of your present and bring things into the future, you know?

Mark:

You know, you were exactly right. You can't do Duch Sean's accent.

Francis:

I didn't try. That wasn't even me trying. You almost tried. Would've been ridiculous. Honestly,

Mark:

my favorite part of the whole show was them putting together for me that picture of Harry Cradock standing in front of the bar. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And putting it together with. That's the Keen's Chop House bar.

Francis:

Harry Johnson his nephew is, did the Keen's Cho Chop House bar. But yes, that's where the lineage goes back. But that's,

Mark:

I mean, that's, that's unbelievable. I mean, that's, it just, just put that all together for me. you can almost see it well in your mind's eye

Francis:

and, you know, Keen's Chop House. We spent many evenings at Keen Chophouse, many afternoons. We went out for lunch to King's Chophouse and wound up being there many, many evenings. That was a, that was

Mark:

a place that, that Francis and I.

Francis:

Do you know that the guy who built when single malt scotches were sort of mm-hmm. Returning to America in the eighties. The guy who put the scotch collection there, and it's one of the best scotch collections in the city for many, many years, was our friend Cory Hill, who, who was also bartender and sold, I remember early

Mark:

in the nineties being introduced to Spring Bank scotches at Keen's Chop House by Cory Hill doing a whole spring bank tasting. Yeah. And, uh, saying, wow, these are. Yeah, these are special and interesting and maybe my new favorites,

Francis:

wild stuff, King's Chop House. Famous for the mutton chop. Mutton chop. Is it not really a mutton chop, but you know, not really a lamb chop item. It's like, it's like a lamb. It's like a big lamb chop, a lutton chop or laly mutton chop. Yeah, it's good, but it's delicious. in this book you have Ada Coleman who was the head bartender at the Savoy Hotel in London before, Harry Cradock and they worked there together, right? Another gentleman in this book is the current head bartender at that hotel who's a guy named Eric Lorincz, and I was at that hotel with him last year or the year before last. He's a great and talented bartender, and one of the things they have on their cocktail menu there. Is they have a list of former head bartenders going all the way back to Ada Coleman. So it's like, you know, the presidents of the United States, you know, there's a history of the bar that that really reaches very far back in time. It's like

Mark:

the presidents of the United States. Well, no. Is that the analogy you really want to use? But, you

Francis:

know, it's, it's, it's like the, the era, it's a continuous cycle. It's been handed from one bar, one head bartender to the other. And they take it very seriously. And it really is like reaching back into history and it's, it's, um, you know, it's keeping history alive and going well. I hope you guys have enjoyed that more than Mark and, uh, and, uh, I hope we see you again next week. Um, the name of the book is Dean's A Drink. Uh, you can find it on our website, restaurant guys radio.com. Visit there early and often. I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys@restaurantguysradio.com.

People on this episode

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Francis Schott

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Mark Pascal

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