The Restaurant Guys
Mark Pascal and Francis Schott are The Restaurant Guys! The two have been best friends and restaurateurs for over 30 years. They started The Restaurant Guys Radio Show and Podcast in 2005 and have hosted some of the most interesting and important people in the food and beverage world. After a 10 year hiatus they have returned! Each week they post a brand new episode and a Vintage Selection from the archives. Join them for great conversations about food, wine and the finer things in life.
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The Restaurant Guys
Martini Expo I 2025
This was recorded at the Martini Expo 2025
Inside Track
The Restaurant Guys were invited to be the official podcasters of The Martini Expo. They spent the day sipping and chatting with the greatest makers, stirrers and shakers on the planet!
Guests
Intro with Robert Simonson, co-founder of The Martini Expo, creator and writer for The Mix with Robert Simonson, and a James Beard Award–winning drinks writer for The New York Times. He authored The Martini Cocktail, one of the definitive modern works on the world’s most iconic drink.
__________
Salvatore Calabrese, “The Maestro,” is one of the world’s most celebrated bartenders. Creator of the iconic Breakfast Martini and the Duke’s Martini, author of best-selling cocktail books, he’s spent over 40 years shaping modern mixology.
__________
Liam Davy is a seasoned bar leader and the driving force behind Hawksmoor’s beverage programs. With roots in London’s cocktail scene and a two-decade career under his belt, he’s risen through roles at Milk & Honey and Match Bar.
__________
Charlotte Voisey is a leading mixologist and the Executive Director of Tales of the Cocktail Foundation. She began behind the bar as an award-winning bartender (UK Bartender of the Year, Mixologist of the Year), continued as a brand ambassador for Hendrick’s gin until her current role at TotC Foundation.
Inside Track
The Restaurant Guys were invited to be the official podcasters of The Martini Expo. They spent the day sipping and chatting with the greatest makers, stirrers and shakers on the planet!
Info
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Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant guys. I'm Mark Pascal and he's Francis Shot. Together, we own Stage Left and Kale Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Well, hello, mark. Hey Francis. How are you? I'm great. I'm excited for a couple of reasons. This was great shows we're about to have, we are starting a series of great shows. These were all shows that we recorded at the Martini Expo, which was put together by Robert Simonson and Mary Kate Mary of the mix in Industry City in Brooklyn. The most, the most important people in the cocktail world we're in one place and we talked to all of them in one. While drinking martinis, which is why it was one of our best shows, three of our best shows really ever. Yeah. So today we're gonna air for you, our interviews with Salvatore Calabrese
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_163037:one of the most important cocktail makers in the world. He is the invent of the Duke Martini and the breakfast martini. Uh, the breakfast martini. Yep.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_162633:We're gonna talk to Liam Davy from London, also from Hawks, more Hawks, more restaurant, and Charlotte Voisey, who is the new, head honcho at, tales of the Cocktail in New Orleans. It was nice to see her. At an event that's not her responsibility. It was great. I think she had a good time not being responsible as well. Exactly. So we're gonna start off talking to Robert Simonson about the martini expo that he helped to create and will be a little bit irresponsible. Hmm.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:And today we have with us to launch our special series, our three part series of all the amazing interviews we did at the Martini Expo in Industry City in Brooklyn. Robert Simonson is himself, is here to join us. Robert, welcome to the show. What an amazing event. I am so excited for people to see the next three shows so they could see what an amazing yeah. Event that you had. It was really cool, Robert.
Robert Simonson:Oh, thank you very much. And, and thank you guys for being there. You guys were the official podcasters and you were there for hours on end, interviewing all the, uh, greatest names and cocktails.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Dude, it was amazing. You had people from all over the world. We couldn't, yeah, we couldn't interview all the greatest names in cocktails. We didn't have, we only had four hours. there was a, the place, I mean, the place was just filled. With tremendous cocktails from all around the world. And the restaurant guys were there and every time the door, like we'd finish a short brief interview with somebody really brilliant, the door would open and then somebody else was standing outside the door.
Robert Simonson:Yeah.
Francis:is, this is gonna be a three part series we're doing today. Thursday is also gonna be, from the Martini Expo. And then Saturday we have a show that, uh, is gonna be partially behind a paywall. And if you wanna become a member of the restaurant, guys, this is as good a time as any because you'll miss the hijinks of Dale Degra crashing into the restaurant guy booth. Uh, and you guys at the, at the end and I'll, I'll be honest with you, Robert, at the end of the Martini Expo, everybody's a little more lubricated than they were at the beginning.
Robert Simonson:Yeah, that was my impression. You know, we didn't actually get, uh, into your booth. Until the very end, I think it was like seven, between seven 30 and eight or
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Yeah.
Robert Simonson:David Wonders was already sitting with you. And I'm not sure why we were let in, but we were let in. It was me and Mary Kate, and also Lisa Laird. we sat there and we, we, we chimed in from time to
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Well, frankly, Robert there was
Robert Simonson:you instructed, them to shut the door and not let anybody
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:close that door is what I said. Robert, there was no lock on that door. I was surprised it didn't happen sooner. Okay. With all the martinis flowing and all the people who were there. Little surprised we didn't get Get gate crashed prior to the.
Robert Simonson:Yeah, no, I, I told you I was gonna do my Bob Hope routine and I did, you know, crashing the Johnny Carson show. I.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:So I want to, um. I wanna keep this brief because the show you put on is the center of our next three days of podcasts. what's your takeaway? after this very successful event? Um, it seemed to me different than any other event that's been done. Um, what's your, what's your, what's your read on what everyone's gonna be hearing over the course of the next couple of episodes?
Robert Simonson:Well, I'm happy to say that I think, uh, we actually accomplished what we set out to do. Um, we got this idea for this scheme about six months ago, and we started putting it together about four months ago with the help of, uh, an event planner called Claire Burton Lang, who has a lot of experience in, uh, staging booze shows. And, uh, we basically wanted to do, three things. Well, first of all, it goes without saying we wanted to honor the martini and the culture of the Martini, and we thought it deserved its own convention, but we also wanted to gather together all of our OG friends from the cocktail revival in one room, that includes you guys. we got people like Dale DeGraff and Julie Reiner, and Salvatore Calabrese and all these wonderful people, and the great distillers too, just to kind of like, you know. get the gang back together and have ano have another party like in the old days. second thing we wanted to do is we wanted to stage a cocktail convention the way they used to be 15 years ago when they were smaller in scale, more idiosyncratic, more human, more warm like that. And the third thing that we wanted to do is just bring more attention to our wonderful substack that Mary Kate and I created The Mix.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Yeah, Mary Kate can't be with us. She was hopefully gonna be with us but Mary Kate is your partner both at The Mix, which is wonderful and we share a lot of. And, putting on the Martini Expo. So kudos to you guys on that.
Robert Simonson:Yeah, Mary Kate and I, uh, founded The Mix and, uh, we came up with the idea for the martini Expo together, and we were both there on the floor. You saw us
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Mm-hmm.
Robert Simonson:around like chickens with our heads
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:you were, uh, you were, you were controlled, Inanity. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so my, my question that has to be asked to you is. Why the martini? Why was the martini so important that it was the focus of this great event that brought all these bartenders together from around the world for one drink, one cocktail. That's amazing.
Robert Simonson:Well, if you're gonna choose one drink to build a convention around, it's gotta be the martini. It's the most famous cocktail. It's the one cocktail that has. Not just, uh, history, but a whole culture built around it. You know, writers have written about it, painters have painted it. poets have sung ode to it. And there's so much debate about it that I figured, you know, you take another cocktail and say, well, can we actually come up with eight seminars about this one cocktail? And maybe not. But with the martini, there was no problem. And also because we're. the middle of a martini zenith, there martinis are everywhere, everyone's drinking them, and there are so many different versions.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:is the great backlash or backwater or turning point from this? No. And low movement everywhere. Everything is low alcohol, low alcohol, and then the martini is rising. And what I wanna say is what I was a little worried about and kudos to you, you had a martini expo that went on for days and.
Robert Simonson:Uh, a day and a
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Well, it was an evening and evening dinner before, but then it went on for a whole day into the evening. Uh, I did not see much drunkenness. I, I saw people better behave that at other more general cocktail, uh, events. I saw a lot of people not. Taking selfies everywhere for Instagram. And I saw a huge diversity of ages. I saw young people, I saw old guys like us, uh, and everything in between. And, uh, I, I think that the, there really is a renaissance around this drink. And I just going in the face of low and no into high and mighty, uh, which is what the martini is. Uh,
Robert Simonson:high and mighty
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:I thought that was incredible. People were immersed in the moment. Yeah.
Robert Simonson:Yeah. Um, uh, that was a thing we were worried about early on, you know, I mean, is it a good idea to serve people martinis all day long? but we did, uh, we were very careful about it. Um, for one thing, uh, we knew that the martini would attract a certain kind of CLI clientele, so let's just call them more mature, more sophisticated, more adult. uh, they're not, they weren't gonna come there, you know, to get
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:So the Jager meister, so the Jagermeister Festival would might've been more of a concern for that.
Robert Simonson:That's right.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:I'm very upset. There was not a martini ice luge.
Robert Simonson:oh, um, you know what, that was suggested at one point and I said, no, we are not having a luge. That is not the message we're trying to send.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Excellent.
Robert Simonson:We did have a nice sculpture though, but no
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:You did. I do want to ask you the question, and, and people are gonna hear this question to, uh, from most of our, our luminaries. What was the moment in your life where you said, wow, this martini is an important cocktail? It, I, I'm, I need to know more about this.
Robert Simonson:Oh, that's a tough question because I began drank drinking them a long time ago. I remember I started thinking about them more seriously in 2018 and 2019 because. Places like, uh, the Grill, you know what used to be the Four Seasons, they reopened and they had this very serious martini menu. And so it made me think about Martini martinis more. And then that just kept happening. And of course, during COVID, we were all making martinis for ourselves at home. And then you really have to think about, well, what do I like? You know, what proportions, what garnish?
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:Well, I think you're. Event was a tremendous success and we're really glad that you invited us to be the official podcasters thereof, and we got some great material with some of the most important people from across the ocean, from here, from across the continent, and we're looking forward to talking with them all. Everybody needs to strap in for what's about to happen.
Robert Simonson:Yeah, you guys managed to talk to, um, all the big names. I think they were all in there.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_153513:We didn't get drunk until after. So, Robert, thanks for joining us to launch. Let's go listen to everybody else in the cocktail world of the Martini Expo 2025.
Francis:So we have snagged from the party here here at Martini Expo at Industry City. We have with us, the Dean of London Cocktail, Salvatore Calabrese. Ooh, that's wonderful to have you here, uh, with us in New York.
Salvatore:Thank you. Thank you, Francis Maestro.
Francis:Welcome to the restaurant. Oh,
Salvatore:got
Francis:got, thank you. To invite
Salvatore:me.
Mark:You
Francis:know. Well, we, we have so many mutual friends in common for so many years. I've heard your name, I've read about You're the inventor of the breakfast martini, your thank you famous tenure at the Playboy Club and now all around the world. It's, uh, it's a nice to meet you in person.
Mark:So one of the things I wanted to share with you is, so my wife and I last, winter went, were in London. We're wandering around. as you obviously know, a lot of wonderful, wonderful bars in London. And one of the places that, that Dale sent me to and said, you must try, uh, was a place I I was unfamiliar with. It's a place called Donovan Bar. Yes, and I, we wandered into Donovan Bar and I was like, what little slice of heaven have I entered right here? And the cocktails were amazing and the bartenders were fantastic and super well trained. I will say, I, I know that, you know, your name carries a, a lot of weight and people really recognize every place that, that you consult for, but I, feel like that place is one of, it's one of my top five cocktail experiences of my life. Oh, thank you. And I just, I like, people should be talking about Donovan Barmore.
Francis:Yeah. So what was your philosophy at Donovan Barr? How did you
Salvatore:bring that together? Well, the, the Donovan Bar, you know, I took on that bar in 2017. Right. And uh, um, and what interest me the most, it was, uh, the Donovan Bar is not what you saw today. It was totally a different bar, but there is so much history in that bar. I, and I got fascinated. The, the Bronze Hotel is one of the oldest hotel, well, the oldest hotel in London, 1832 has an incredible history behind. And, um, so I. For, well, I love history, and what a better way to recreate legacy and recreate a bar when in one of the most historical hotel in the world, you know, the Brown Hotel where people from Agatha Christie from, uh, uh, Winston Church or Queen Victoria, anyone, uh, Bel, you know, uh, the Jungle Book was written in there. So there is so much history that is overwhelming. The very first telephone call was made there. The electricity. I mean, there won't be no enough words to fulfill that book regarding what Brown Total is. So when I took over that bar, I designed the bar, you know, I also had my own entrance, the entrance that wasn't there before. Mm-hmm. And I want to create the theater. I always say one, the one of the most beautiful part of a bar is the theater aspect. Uh, you walk in and you have to fill that soul, you have to fill that bit. And that goes, it only comes from, uh, great service, great hospitality, great welcome and fill. What bar should only be about, you know, I think today what we do, we trying to strip. The bar. Mm-hmm. With trying to take away the stool away from the bar. Mm-hmm. I want the stool at the bar. I'm trying to, you know, bartender, they're no talkative, you know, they shake for themselves. They don't shake for the, for the customer. Well,
Francis:that I just wanna. If I had a T, we had a t-shirt made that says, don't shake for yourself. Shake for the customer. Yeah, it did.
Mark:Did just as simple as eye contact. Eye contact. The simplest you truthfully, Salvatore and I had never met today. Okay. As we walked through the room together, we both made eye contact. Contact, contact each and that's
Salvatore:and for, I wanna know that guy. No,
Francis:you were the Dean of Cocktails in the UK and especially in London as London became a cocktail city. So we started our bar early on when Dale was still at the Rainbow Room, 1992. And we watched and were a part of the New York community. But it was very interesting to us as cocktails came from nowhere. To the Rainbow Room and then to a few other places. And we were one of those few other places. And then this community grew up in New York, but then like a dark horse, London came out of the ba out of the, from the rear of the race and for a while overtook New York. Oh yeah. As the worlds center of the cocktail. And now I think New York and London are neck and neck and there's also so many other cities in the world, like Chicago and Hong Kong. But. What made London bars different?'cause London, the London cocktail scene was and is materially different than the New York cocktail scene.
Salvatore:Um, I think, you know, the, uh, I hope I have helped in 1990, in the nineties, you know, the cocktail culture, it was very du and, uh, I think with few of of my friends, you know, Dick Brandel. Peter Durelli, we changed the culture. We really revamped the, the cocktail culture, I think in the nineties was the golden age. Yes. Of the cocktail culture. And I think, uh, I hope I helped as well because I start to, like Dale, I start to change the attitude of cocktail making. When before the, when you were making a cocktail, it was like cooking. You will pick up the worst wine that there was. Right? Right. To cook, right? Sure. The cheapest one. Right now, they don't do that anymore. And the same again with with cocktail. You were making a Manhattan, you would go and choose the worst whiskey or the one that it would cost you the less, right? Right. You would do a gin and tonic. You would go and pick up the worst gin. So what I did, I thought, you know what makes a cocktail? What is the canvas of great? Cocktail is the spirit. Mm-hmm. So therefore it needs respect. So I start to change the attitude by putting into cocktail the. Premium spirits. Yeah. Not the cheapest spirit. Yeah. Right. And those
Mark:matter, right. It's, it's, it's a part of every great restaurant. Of course in the last 30 years. Those ingredients, you can use
Francis:cooking technique to make mediocre food taste good, but you can use it to make good food, taste great, and great food taste also. And it's all about ingredient. And the
Salvatore:spirits was the same. And then I start to use fresh ingredient. Yeah. I start to bring in unusual ingredient like, uh, you know, my breakfast martini is one of the most iconic Yeah. Cocktail ies. We'll put the
Francis:re not. If anybody el bartenders know your recipe martini because it's part of the canon, but for non bartenders listening, we'll put the recipe in the show notes for that. Oh, thank you. Which I created in 1996.
Salvatore:Actually, funny enough, when I launched my very first book in 97, I took the rainbow room. Uhhuh with Dale DeGroff. That was my first time that I met Dale, my American, uh, you know, Sterling from which I had an American publisher, uh, asked me, I said, where do you want to launch your book? You know, I said, well, I always heard about Dale DeGroff, the other person across the Atlantic that is making a difference in a cocktail world. So I therefore, I would like to go to the Rainbow Room. So we decide,
we got in touch with Dale. He knew about me and
Salvatore:what we did, we connect and uh, we launched my very first book at the Rainbow Room. And that was the very first popup bar that there was internationally. That's amazing. It was fantastic. There was no other, you know, and we made that kind of a unique night and we. Present and now I serve my breakfast Martina at that time with Dale, you know, and that was, that was great. You know, and if
Francis:the very first pop cocktail popup bar in the world was Salvatore Calabrese and Dale De the Rainbow Room, that's a lot going on in one room. That's the center of the cocktail universe. And there was no
Salvatore:such a thing as such, you know, to international bar meat to each other and spend an incredible, great night at that time. We
Francis:are three old guys in at this point.
Mark:Oh, right. Is that We're not, yeah. So Salvato. We are at the the Martini Expo, so we gotta talk for about martinis and, and we've already mentioned your breakfast martini, but what was the martini experience you had that made you say, this cocktail's important, this needs to be part of, well,
Salvatore:martini, to be honest with you, changed my life. Mm-hmm. It made who I am today without the martini. Maybe I wouldn't be here talking today. And that was in 1985. I used to work at the Dukes. I worked at the Dukes Hotel from 1982 to 19 95, 12 years to 12, very happy year. And. In 1985, you know, I already start to make a name for myself, a more for vintage spirits. Mm-hmm. I come up with this idea and concept to sell liquid history as something that nobody else was doing in the world. And by in 1985, I always said it took God six days to create the world. It took me five to create the perfect master and why. Because it took me five days to fulfill the expectation of this customer. His name was a stunt and de plane who was staying at hotel. And from the very first day that he came to the bar, he asked, and he was a two martini man. He asked, may I have a very cold, um, but very dry martini. And I said, of course, Mr. Dalea plate. So you what I did, I took the mixing glass, I put ice in the mixing glass, make, put the gin, put the vermer, and then stir. To make a very, very, very cold. Obviously, I over diluted to the cocktail. Sure. My martini. And he used to say, yes, this is cold enough, but it's not dry enough. So the second drink, you know, because he, as I say, he was a too martini man. Mm-hmm. I used to do more dry and less cold. And then he used to never complain, but he was making a remark. Like he was happy but not happy a hundred percent. And he was happy because he was finishing his drink, right? And he would say, yeah, this now is dry enough, but it's not cold enough. And every day was the, the dejavu the same and it was the same scenery. So much so that by the third day I start to have a nightmare. How can I fulfill the expectation of this person that every day tells me the same thing, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So on the fourth day, right, you have to understand well. Either five days, the fourth days, it was a Friday where they were serving fish and chips down to the staff canteen. And uh, I went down there to have lunch and I noticed a kitchen port, a portal, whatever. One guy, he was a very fussy how much more vinegar wine he wanted on his chip. And there was, it was used in the dash bottle that it was used, and they used to move the chips away from the plate and just for boom. One dash of Moat Wine, right? The milk vinegar wine on that. And you used to eat the chip. And I thought, that's clever. Now I know how to control the dryness. And so I took that bottle, that dash bottle upstairs in the bar, washed it and put the dry IAF in there. Now how do I hell, I'm gonna make a cold unless I'm going to over stir it. So the Dukes bar for 12 years, I washed my own glass by hand. I had a sink, and then under the sink there was a picnic basket that I had my eyes and a little station. And a little domestic fridge, where in this domestic fridge there was a little freezer. So I. A bottle of gin and two glasses. It was big enough for one bottle of gin and two glasses.'cause Mr. Delaplane always had two Martine. Mm-hmm. So on the fifth day, Mr. Delaplane came to the bar and as his usual, you know, it was like a broken record. He said, may I have a. Very dry, a very cold martini. I said, okay. So I took the glass away from the freezer. You know, obviously I already prepare my mixing glass with ice, making it. So I took the glass from the freezer and it was very, very cold, icy cold. Oh wow. So I took the bottle from the freezer. I don't ask me why, you know, I open the bottle and then it says to put it in the mixing glass. I put directly in the glass'cause I didn't want that glass to get warm. So I pull it straight into the glass, and then I pick up the dashboard and lay the VE on top. And remember that. The Verma has to play his part in the, in the martini. It has to have the aroma. Mm-hmm. It has to have that taste like an Irish coffee. I lay the Verma on top. Okay. And he will stay on top. So when Mr. Dela plane was smelling it, he could strength the ver the vine and then taste there. So he took one sip. He finished the first martini and didn't complain, didn't say anything. Wow. He asked for the same again. So because he did not complain, I made it the same way, the direct way. Mm-hmm. He took one sip and walked away. I said, for Christ sake, my, this guy, what have I done now every day, you know, he is man, you know, complain that, you know, yes, dry enough, not cold enough. Cold enough, not dry enough, you know? But at least this time it didn't even. Moan didn't even complain. He just walked away. Okay. But then a few hours later, he came back down and introduced himself, who he was. Stan Deplane, a very famous journalist. He used to write for the San Francisco Colon. Mm-hmm. Los Angeles Town, New York Times. I freelance a very famous person and he says, Salvato, I enjoyed your martini so much so that I wrote an article and show me the facts in this. Uh. If you ever go to London, you must make a stop at the Dukes bar where Salvato will make you the best martini in the planet. And that was the beginning.'cause every time he came to London, the Dukes martini was his stop and he was talked about the martini and everything else that it was, and the legacy beginning. That's, that's smart. So much so that the, you know, the legacy still stand, you know, the Dukes is still famous for the martini, but through that I met, uh, uh, many iconic people. Sean Connery came for the martini. Everyone who is a martini obviously have to
Mark:have a Dukes martini,
Salvatore:even a majesty. You know, I could truly say, you know, my martini has a royal crest. How a person can say they have the royal crest for the martini. I do. You know,
Mark:so for everybody listening out there. People complaining is not nearly as powerful as when you go to a customer and say, how's everything? And they say. Everything's fine. Yeah, right. Everything's fine Is like a dagger. Yeah, it's like a dagger. That means something is still fun. Yeah. I worked really hard. I don't want
Francis:fine.
Mark:Yeah, no, no. I want something more superlative.
Francis:Right. And to just review. So what Sal, I said that you, if you're, if you haven't been paying attention out there and listener land, yes. It's just a freezer martini, but with no dilution. Mm-hmm. When all these freezer martinis that are popular now people are working in the dilution you would get from staring it. So yours is just.
Salvatore:Well, there is a little dilution, to be honest with you, because what I do, obviously I perfected my dry martini. Mm-hmm. So, and that's what I used to do even in the eighties. I used to put a dash of water in the martini. Mm-hmm. In the martini glass. In the glass. Mm-hmm. Toasting it, right? Mm-hmm. And then leave it in the fridge. In the freezer. So whenever I used to make the martini, that was done. The five milliliter of dilution Yep. That you want, that you usually encounter. And an added
Mark:coldness at the same time. Yeah. But
Salvatore:because it was cold, I mean, there was, have you ever heard the Sta um. Es No, ES was a very, very famous journalist. A, a writer actually. He, after Ian Fleming, he was the first one who took over from Ian Fleming and start to write a book about James Bond. Bond. Yes. And he was uh, I would say an earnest em anyway, but with an English attitude, Uhhuh. And he used to come at the Dukes in the eighties. He used to wear his blazer and he used to wear this cavat. Like you, you know, a man of a presence. Both of you, you know, Uhhuh a man with a presence. Then he used to ask for the bloody mirror, used to ask for Manhattan, but then the martini, and once he wrote an article in Illustrate London New, and he said, uh. I find of a bar with a bartender to match how difficult there is to,, to create a well-balanced dry martini, which stays cold enough all throughout the drinking period. And that is what is the secret, is a gray martini is not just how you make it, but how you maintain the temperature mm-hmm. All throughout the drinking period. Because remember, it doesn't matter about the dilution, it doesn't matter how you do it. But anything that becomes to be warm, the alcohol start to kick. And you want to make sure that, the heart, the soul of that drink stays into that drink.
Francis:Alright, final question.
Salvatore:Okay. Ah.
Francis:When we were young bartenders, which means when you were a young bartender, people used to order martinis. Half the time they were on the rocks, and half the time they were up. The martini on the rocks is all the forgotten. Yes. Is it justifiably forgotten or is it overlooked?
Salvatore:Well, I think, you know, I think it's justifiable. you know, gone. Because when you ask for martini on the rocks, that means it's pugin or pew vodka. You actually drink V vodka on the rocks. Mm-hmm. That means it's over diluted, It's, you lose the elegant, remember the glassware is like seeing a beautiful woman who walks through the bar and she's all elegant, dressed up. That is the martini glass, that is the elegancy of a Martin, and the martini
Francis:on the rocks is sweatpants and a sweat and short trousers. Yeah, fair enough. It's okay. Salvatory Calabresi, thank you for taking the time out at Marchini Expo and cinema us. What a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. Oh, come on
Salvatore:guys. Um, thank you very much to invite me and, uh, I hope you can come. To the Donovan again, I promise. And, uh, enjoy my house. Thank you. We will. Thank you so much, Francis. Thank you. Thank God bless you man. Thanks so much.
Liam Davy:So we've doved back into the party here at the Martini Expo and we've grabbed Liam Davy to come talk with us for a while. Liam is the director of one of our favorite cocktail programs of a steakhouse, but not an individual steakhouse. A steakhouse chain hawks. More in the uk. It's great to call it a chain. We we go, we say group. That was unfair. Definitely not changing. Cheers came at the martini. When I say, I'm not kidding that we like hawks more, our Christmas present to each other. Either last year or the year before was gift certificates to Hawks more. Oh it's, that's actually a true story. So we would all go out to dinner at Hawks More together. You guys know me now so you don't have to worry about gift certificates anymore. We, so, by the way, comes straight to the source and the hero of that story is Hawks more because Mark called me a couple of months later and said, we're going out with the Paisanos. Can I have that gift certificate back? That's true. True story. The gift certificate I gave him for Hawks more, I took and used You used used both of them. I love that. We'll make sure you guys got some S in the, alright, dude, you're, you're. And I have been to several Hawks Mores in your group. And I was at the one in Dublin. I was traveling with a friend and we walked in. You had just opened. Yeah. And it was so disappointing'cause it was late and we didn't have time to have dinner. We wanted to have a drink at your beautiful bar. Yeah, but they told us that your permitting wasn't place. Oh, the license is a nightmare there. So that Oh, I know. Dublin's a nightmare. Wait, so what they said was, so there were people drinking at tables and they said, yeah, our license only permits drinking if you're having dinner. That is so unfair. Grab some snails. Yeah. I mean there's, there's two things there. One of which is trying to tell Dublin as they can't have a drink is pretty hard. Yeah. And American transplants to Dublin, same thing. Exactly. And secondly, you know, that building used to be for what it was before. Mm-hmm. It was, it was an Abercrombie and Fitch. Oh. And you can still occasionally smell the kind of, the sort of musk odor from time to time. So. Well that's, that's lovely. And you just tell people that it's an ingredient in the martini. It's a special vermouth we use. Exactly. Alright, so listen, one of the things that's really interesting is we just, you, you just passed Salvato Calabrese on the way out the door. Yes. And it's very, and it's one of the things that's lovely about this particular event is it really has a lot of an international, group of people who've come here. The Martini is an international drink and the two leading cities of the world that led the cocktail revolution were London and New York. Yeah, absolutely. Why are you here? Did you fly across the ocean for this? How important is this? What about the martini? I do, I'm very, so, I'm very lucky to come over to the US uh, three or four times a year, normally, sometimes more, uh, to work with our restaurants over here. And one of the first things we really wanted to do at Hawkes More in New York when we opened was, you know. We're a British company, people were, were expecting us not to be able to compete on the steak front, but also could we compete on the martini front. And so everything we've done in that bar has always been about elevating the martinis as high as possible and trying to make the best possible martini in the city. Why did you focus on martinis? Because that that is becoming an increasingly post COVID important part of the cocktail lexicon. It was always there for the OGs for the baseline. Yeah. But now it's like there's a martini mania and you guys were ahead of that curve. We were slightly, I mean, when we got here in 2020, just before COVID, um, I love the idea that our drinks list feels like an old school steakhouse. Like an old school American steakhouse. Yeah. And, and all of the drinks are coated in that way, but we still use modern techniques to try and elevate them to be world-class cocktail bar drinks. Mm-hmm. So you can, you look, it looks and feels like you're in a steakhouse, but the drinks are. I would say better than you would get in your average steakhouse. Certainly. Um, and the martini for us was always the kind of the key one to get right. That for me is the drink that's most synonymous with baseline steakhouse experience. Yeah. I think that's got, that's exactly right. It's a baseline, but I think Francis being a little unfair because your cocktail program is extraordinary. Oh, that's, it's extraordinary. It was one of my favorite places to have a cocktail in New York City. For, for a while now. I think you, you really have elevated. There are a lot of great cocktails, great garnishes, a great focus on garnishes that make the drink better. Thank you. I really appreciate That's nice to, which is a total pet peeve of mine is, is the whole world of garnishes that are for pretty Yeah, yeah. And, and not just, not for inside, inside baseball to make the cocktail better. We, our staff came up with a cocktail and there's, it's a lovely cocktail, but it's just, they wanted a little bit of a gold leaf on top of a big cube. And it hurts Mark's soul every time that cocktail goes out. It actually is beautiful. So we let it go and they're like, but you can eat it. He's like, but you shouldn't eat it. There's no reason. Make it better. Make it better. We have, so we're a little bit hypocritical. We have one cocktail in the history of our restaurant that has a but, but. Right after our own hearts. Right. We have two restaurants in the same building and one of them is a steakhouse. Yeah. And since 1993, we have prided ourselves on, you are going to start with a great cocktail. Yeah. And then maybe you're gonna move on to a glass of champagne. Yeah. And then we're gonna have a wonderful wine list for you. And you're gonna have some of the best stakes in the world. That's, that's gonna be part of the experience. But I think that one of the ways the world has changed is. Great cocktails are expected. You want to be a great restaurant. Great cocktails are part of that experience, right? You don't need the cocktail bar around the corner before you go to the nice restaurant that doesn't have a good cocktail bar. I completely agree with you, but I do think that as cocktails have got gotten more expensive and more esoteric mm-hmm. That for a lot of people they've, the first thing to go from their, from their order is. They just ditch the cocktail or they go somewhere else for a drink beforehand. And I think part of that is leaving a little bit, leaving your ego at the door and realizing what people actually want from a steakhouse experience. They want a great martini. Yeah, they want an amazing old fashioned, they want a great house Bloody Mary. They want a good champagne cocktail. You know, those simple drinks. That doesn't mean that you can't be creative in how you make those better, but those drinks themselves need to be very clear what they're, and so our martini, our house martini has, you know, gin vermouth. A little bit lemon oil and water and that's it. You know, we're not adding loads of extra stuff in there, but we just, it's a few techniques that make that a really brilliant martini, and that's, I think, what people, we think people want. I think you can mess with the martini as long as you already have a, a great martini on your list. I think you can have a secondary martini that is, is interesting and different and has the little quote marks around martinis. Don't worry about that. We got plenty. Everyone you need, you need to know how to paint a horse before you can paint an abstract horse and taken seriously. What a lovely, what a lovely analogy. I think, I think my art history professor's gonna be mad at me when she hears that, but, well, no, I do wanna say though, and I think you guys were really, you caught a wave you. Hmm. And you maybe you helped to make the wave, but I think in steakhouses,'cause you know, Dale. When, when we used to go, we used to have a, a lunch club called The Red Meat Club. Yeah, yeah. In 1993 to 2000, and we went out to lunch on the second Monday of every month. All restaurant people. And there were only certain things you were, there were certain cocktails that were allowed to be had before lunch. Tell me what they are. Uh, martini Manhattan. Yeah. Bloody. Bloody Mary. Yeah. And Dale had a cold one day. So tea with lemon and some brandy in it. Okay. He's always, he's always skipping his round. Give an acceptable, you know, when Dale wants something, you change the rules. Yeah. That's, that's how that works. Um, so I think the martini is central to a steakhouse because what's a steakhouse at the center of a great steakhouse has to be really good quality meat stripped down. Yeah. And the artifice of the chef. It's just not fucking it up. Right. Yeah. And that's a martini as well. Hundred percent. And the other thing, I think what you said earlier is people are drinking less, but better. There is an aesthetic where people are drinking less alcohol. Yeah. They're having fewer drinks in the course of a night going out to dinner. Fewer times. Yeah. But they're drinking better and we're selling a ton of caviar. Mm-hmm. We're selling expensive steaks and martinis are that it's, I'm gonna have. A potent three and a half ounce drink. Amazing. Start my day. But something you said a minute ago I agree with mostly, but I'm seeing some younger people. Ride cocktails all the way through the dinner now. Yeah, yeah. That kind of, kind of come in, have a cocktail and just ride cocktails all the way through. Yeah. I think, listen, people ask all the time about matching cocktails and food and as someone who literally makes cocktails for a living, I'm not gonna do myself, you know, dirty and say, don't. Drink cocktails with food. But my personal view is particularly in the kind of steakhouse environment, that wine goes better with steak than, than cocktails do, if I'm honest. But all of the bits around that, and that's what we, we do really at Hawkes more, it's particularly the pre dinner part, but also the after dinner part and maybe like a little sipper in between. You know what, what, whatever you. Feel that's, that's the occasion for that. But you know, I think if, if you like cocktails and wanna drink them with your steak, then fantastic. Yeah, no, I, I'm with, and, and if you're gonna drink a cocktail with your steak Mar martini's, the best one. So since we're at the Martini Expoo, can I ask you a couple of martini specific questions? Please Go for it. This is a international, uh, bi continental, um, opinion. So here's a question for you. I'm What makes a martini a martini? Because we're seeing all sorts of variations of martini. So we'd all admit that a martini made the saki instead of vermouth is still a martini. Yeah, but a martini with grapefruit juice and cranberry juice and Grenadine is no longer a martini. What makes a martini a martini? Do you know what? I don't think there's a, a definitive answer to that. I just don't. I don't Coward coward, and I'm not, I'm not entirely, I'm not entirely sure. It matters really for me, martinis. Is is clear? Yep. Um, it's made with a white spirit. Yep. Probably gin and vodka, but I've had some great tequila martinis. I've had some, and with the other weirder spirits, I think it's just, you know, I, the debate's fun if people, I'm not, I'm not curious. That's why we're having it. I'm not, I'm not a, and also I don't really want to kind of, uh, overlay my opinions onto, onto other people. So I would say gin, gin and vodka mixed with something kind of. Wine. Wine based. Very cold. Said straight up. That's smart. I seen you. I would say clear. All of those things. Yeah. And no juice. You add juice and you've changed it. What do you think? So it's Olive Bryan juice. Are we calling it? No, olive. Brown is not juice. It's an old magical thing in its own category. Look at now, you're making up. I talk. Well understand. We make stuff up. I mean, the problem is if you try and make rules after having like three martinis. So we're really looking forward to the, the later people that we interview. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be a mess who have, who have been cocktailing for, for more hours. So my question to you is, what's the Martini Expoerience that changed the way you look at martinis? Oh, that's a wonderful question. So we've got, uh, Dale behind the bar, just over the road from us. Mm-hmm. Um, I used to work, um, for a company in London called Match Bar Milk, which is part of the Milk and Honey group. Yep. Um, and Dale used to be our kind of consultant. He'd come over a couple of times a year and, and make drinks for us. And I remember going into Milk and Honey one night when he was behind the bar and he was making, he was making the drinks and he made a martini. And I think that was the first time I'd seen someone kind of, it was made with such confidence in such prash that I think even before I'd tasted it, you knew it was gonna be amazing and it felt really special. And for me, the martinis net should never be about kind of throwing things over. It's quite fun having an an airport martini or a dive by martini from time to time. But a great martini about that kind of, that confidence and style that someone puts into it. Before, you had Salvatore in here just before me. I think if you come to certain bars in London, like the con where they really put loads of mm-hmm. Our, our other favorite bar. Yeah. Yeah. And Dukes and all these fantastic places where they kind of, it really, you know, you. You feel incredible. It makes you feel incredible before you've even sipped it. And so that for me is the kind of the art of the martini I say. Okay. Two quick questions and, and we'll let you go back to the party. Yeah. Um, because I see you still have martini left, so just still time that we can ask you questions, you know. Oh, now it's gone. Alright, so, um. Standard serve of a martini. How many ounces or send liters of booze should go into it before staring, before dilution? Hmm. Okay. So I would say, so actually in the UK we have, we set them slightly smaller than we do here because you slightly bigger, um, I think three ounces of booze plus a little bit of a moose is about, is about right. For me, the worst thing about a martini when it's. Insufficiently diluted. Yeah. I think you need to make sure the dilution correct. Unless you're having Duke star martinis, which we're gonna be, we're doing right. I was gonna say, you and Salvatore are gonna go, but I think that, I think that with that you can get it so cold and if you can keep it really cold, then it's great. I don't know if you had this phase in, in the uk, but we had here in the. Late eighties and through the nineties, we went through the huge martini glass, the seven ounce martini, and better fill it to the top. I've had a few, I've a few of those in Chicago when they, and they're big and they're quite daunting and I'm just like, and, and first and the second half of them is terrible though. Yeah. It's, the second half is terrible. It's warm and you're loaded. Right. Okay. And then, uh, final question, Kaball question. When we started bartending in 19 86, 87, yikes. people would order martinis and half the time they'd be up and half the time they'd be on the rocks. Yeah, on the rocks. Martini is dead. Is it dead for a good reason or should it is it overlooked. My guilty pleasure, my favorite. Drink that I ever have is not in the bar. It's not in the restaurant. It's at home when I'm cooking and if I'm making a martini for myself at home, I'll stir it and I'll pour it onto a big block of ice and I'll drink it while I'm cooking because the kitchen's hot. It's quite nice to have it kind of, it dilutes slowly and it just makes it much sense. Francis is looking, looking very with contempt. No, no. Nice. A nice big block of ice. Not kind of like dive bar rice, but you know, it's delicious. It tastes great. Mark. Mark. Got that all wrong. I wanna get invited over. Yeah. One of the things I think is a lost art of the martini is when people used to have those cylindrical pictures. Yeah. And you'd put two martinis where the martini in there and drink the first one really strong and keep drinking as it gets colder. But anyway, uh, thank you for the insight. Thanks for taking the time outta this pleasure Liam gave from Hawks. It has been a true pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much. we really do love your places. We look forward to having a Martin together at some point. Sounds great. Forward to it. Sounds great. Thank you very much. Thanks for coming in. Cheer guys. Thanks.
Francis:Hey there. So we have come back now with Charlotte Voie, who we've stolen from the party. Uh, sorry for pulling you outta the martini party, but you have to talk to the restaurant guys when you're, here's Charlotte was a, a guest on the show just recently. Yeah. And Charlotte runs Tales of the Cocktail, which is the largest cocktail conference in the world. And here you are, in Brooklyn at the. Martini Expo. The Martini Expo, which is all about one specific drink, the martini. Um, what are you, what are your thoughts of
Charlotte Voisey:today? I love this. I mean, Robert Simonson, and they came up with this idea to do a martini party, a martini expo in New York, and the industry said, sure, why not? Why haven't we done this before? But don't you think it's, I mean, I don't think there's a, another single, like a margarita party wouldn't have been like this. This is a, this is the most sophisticated. A margarita party would've been much messier than this. Oh yeah. It would've been fun. Okay. However, you're right. But do you know what, it's funny, I was afraid when I thought coming into this, and let's say it's Robert Simonson and Mary Kate. As well who put this together. Yes, absolutely. Uh, super important to mention, but yes, I was talking with Dale last night actually, Uhhuh, because he crashed at my place on the way over here, and we said, so tomorrow's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. He's given a seminar. We're doing podcasts. Mm-hmm. A lot of our friends are gonna be here, but we're like. It's gonna be messy, isn't it? People are gonna be erected. And we thought, you know, a martini is a very strong drink to be doing seven hour festival over, but nobody's wrecked. It's actually super civilized. It's very civilized. It's super civilized. It's shockingly civilized. Well, and I've noticed that the martinis being served are in little tiny mm-hmm. Yeah. Teeny martini glasses, which helps, I think that's very responsible. Yeah. And you know, people are here to learn. They're here to network Talk. So I think, you know, that helps. But people aren't just here to drink. They're here to learn and understand. Yeah. And, and connect with industry friends. So it's true. You know what Mark and I were saying earlier that because, okay, so you've just taken over running tales of the cocktail, right? Mm-hmm. But we have seen, met each other at, at different tales of the cocktail. In your different iterations of your career for 20 years or more. Yes. Yes. And we, we were saying, is this Oh, you were like 14. Yeah. Oh yeah. Ab, absolutely. Yeah. So this feels like an early tales of the cocktail. Would you agree with that? It's, it's got that same reunion feel, right? Yeah. I think anytime that industry friends and peers can get together, and we have some international guests here as well, a lott. It's not just New York, right? Yeah. This is a lovely turnout. I think anytime you get that moment of connection. Um, a little bit of education, some great cocktails. Yeah. It's got that tales feel because it's the, it's a reunion. Well, the other thing though is I think tales is, the flagship event of the cocktail world. Yes. And we have an awards dinner. We have a, this is a very small event, and I think it's, I think this event may grow, but it's again, being about one drink, a seminal drink. A foundational drink. Yep. Um. it's a much smaller scale, but very serious at the same time. Yeah. It's interesting'cause it is about one specific cocktail writing. It's creepy, right? I guess. Others people might think, is there really that much to talk about? But there is, because we're talking about the martini, which dates back to the what? Mid to late 18 hundreds. Yep. Right. Yet we're still talking about it today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there are still so many iterations of the martini, but at the same time, there's so much reverence around this iconic cocktail. Yeah. That you almost feel like people are. Not scared, but careful. Right. With the way they riff on the martini, because if you take it too far, it's no longer a martini's. So there's lot of reference. You're taking him right to his first question, but the martini's an important cocktail. This is, this is, it's the most important cocktail. It is, it is the most important cocktail was gonna say there are a couple of questions we've been asking everybody and you led me right to it, so, okay. So the question is, what is a martini? Oh, and that's very, that's a dangerous questions. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, lemme lay out the parameters. Yep. So we would all agree that if you swap, swap out the vermouth for sake, you're still in martini territory. We would all agree that if you had cream and uh, cranberry juice, you are, no. You have left mu martini. Absolutely. Yeah. Martini has left the building. Did you say cream and cranberry juice? Yeah. And you're fired as a bartender. Many things wrong with it. Alright. So what makes a martini a martini in Charlotte Purist. View. Ooh, this is controversial territory. Um, I would say it's a combination of gin or vodka and vermouth. Mm-hmm. Classically, right. This is where we're starting. Right. But what can I add in and still Or substitute, yeah. This is what Im thinking. Leave it still a martini. How far can my riff go before it's a different song? I think the vermouth can be riffed into something that adds, um, a bit of flavor. Mm-hmm. That. That botanical note preferably, but, you know, Chartres are here today. One could argue that a hint of Chartres has a similar role in a martini. That vermouth might, however, being so much stronger in alcohol, we'd have to like, um, So does it have to be all alcohol? Is that, is that part of being a martini? I think so. No juice? No, it's gotta be all boo. No, no juice, no syrup, no citrus. Right. Alright. I mean, oils, absolutely. We welcome that. Of course, Uhhuh. But, uh, we should share that, that Charlotte, in a previous life. Was, you know, one of the, the main, main, she was the lady, the main face lady at Hendrick's Chin. Yeah. So she's, she knows what Joe talk, so there aren't a lot of people who know more about this question than she does. There's a fair few out there right now. Now there's, they're, if they're in the world, they're out there right now. Now, yeah, exactly. Exactly. They're all here under one roof, which is why you're asking these questions. But yeah, I mean, if, by the way, we've asked all this question and this is a question. There it was not quite defined, but if anyone's gonna define it, it's a consensus in, in this room. Yeah. I think we've gotten 10 different answers. I think after today you, you've got it right. So I, I'll figure it out at the end of the day. I mean, there are people who will say, if it's not gin plus vermouth, it's not a martini. I mean, you may have heard that today. I don't know. I think most people will accept vodka in vermouth. Yeah. Uh, but, I think the consensus that's coming around is, if you want to call it a martini, it's gotta be not cloudy. It's gotta be a clear spirit, and, and not a brown spirit. Even though historically you could use whiskey and sweet vermouth and, it's no juice, all booze. And, and that's, that's the absolutely seems to be the thing. Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. When Mark and I started bartending in the 1980s Okay. When people ordered martinis in Manhattans Yeah. They were as likely to order them on the rocks as they were up. Yep. Yep. The martini on the rocks mm-hmm. Is, is gone the way of the do dober. Yep. Should it be revisited or is it dead where it's supposed to be? What do you think about Martini on the rocks? It's interesting'cause when I started bartending in the nineties, Uhhuh, I was taught with a martini. You asked three questions. Yes. Right. Upper on the rocks. Chin Vodka, Oliver Twit. Yes. That's, there is, those are the questions, remember? Yeah. Those are the three questions. And nobody asks up on the rocks and Marshall. Yeah, no, absolutely. The Negroni two, by the way, but the other way round, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It used to always be, um oh. And now it's on the rocks, but I think martini on the rocks. The thing about that is, for me, you lose the elegance. And one of the cornerstones of a martini. Not only the ingredients that we've just spoken about. Right. But I think a martini should always be elegant. I agree. And one easy way to do that is to serve it up in an elegant glass. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I don't think we should revisit the martini on the rocks, even though it might be a slightly easier sip. Final question. Mm-hmm. the experience you had, where you realized the martini was gonna be important in your life, that was when it, 2006, I was working with the Dorchester Hotel in London. We refurbed the Dorchester bar, and it was an homage to vermouth, whoa. And classic cocktails with vermouth that had kind of been long gone, gone, and forgotten, were brought back, but it was the. Just the care and reverence to classic cocktails. The martini, it was revisiting the Martine the first time I really learned about that cocktail. Um, but sitting at that bar once it was opened, and this was like the night before I left to move to the us. Mm-hmm. So this was big, like, wow, that's a big night. Yeah. And having a martini in that moment, understanding the care uhhuh behind the drink, I was like, oh yeah, this is, this is the pinnacle of everything. Um, I love it. That's great. You know what I love Matt. Every person that we've talked to without hesitation has had a moment like that. Oh yeah. Every per'cause we've asked this that exact question or a similar question to every single person, and everybody's had that moment. And why is there a martini expo? Yeah, because every person in this profession who's here today. Has had a moment like that. And every mar I would say most martini drinkers have probably had a moment that it's kind of like coming of age. It's kind of like growing up you're done with. Mm-hmm. Silly. I mean, you know, in college we made blue whales with country time lemonade and blue ke I in a garbage can. You know what I mean? Did a brand new garbage can though. You did buy a brand new garbage can. Oh. And we didn't get arrested, but the martini. I, I felt like James Bond when I learned how to appreciate a martini. It is, it's a rite of passage. It's that moment where you feel sophisticated. It's a little bit seductive, if I can use that word. Right. You can. You're allowed. Yeah. And it's, it's special. And I think having a martini. Isn't an everyday thing for me anymore. And I love that you said anymore. I love that you said anymore because I was like, I knew you Charlotte, but that's only because I had the privilege of working with Hendricks and, and doing that. But it, I don't think it should be an everyday thing. It's such a special drink and moment and experience and the glassware and the temperature and all, everything that goes into a perfect martini. It shouldn't be an everyday thing. It's a, it's a special thing to cherish. Love it. Well Charlotte, thanks for taking the time to talk to us about the martini. Thank you. No one more qualified to talk about the Martini than you and uh, and we will see you at tails of the cocktail next year. Yes. We'll, a good, can't wait. Alright. Thank you so much. Great. Thanks Charlotte. Thank you. Thanks Charlotte.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_163406:Hey, that was a great show. Charlotte Voisey. Love her. you're gonna love the next set of shows we have too. Yeah. Coming up on Thursday, we're gonna have William Elliot from Maison Premier, an amazing place out in Brooklyn. We have Tim Cooper from Ford's Gin and Sarah Morrissey, recently of Voor, which is one of the. Most important cocktails to hit Manhattan in a long time. Stick with us and um, Saturday Show will be for restaurant guys regulars only. So it's time to sign up and become a restaurant. Guys, regular. Hope you had a good time. We'll see you again on Thursday. I'm Francis Shot. I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys. You can find out more@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
