The Restaurant Guys

Jim Lahey and His No-Knead Bread Rocked the World (now pizza, too)

• The Restaurant Guys • Episode 140

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This is a Vintage Selection from 2012

The Banter

The Guys taste something new and unusual.

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys hear a revolutionary idea from Jim Lahey of how to make not only bread, but pizza dough with his no-knead method. Jim discusses the obstacles many folks face while baking at home and his suggestions to overcome them so you, too, can make great pizza!

The Inside Track

The Guys hear what Jim really thinks about a typical pizza.

“Most of the dough and our notion of pizza that's out there is really bad. Industrialized. Hopeless. Sad. You could say the pizza lacks self-esteem. 

The Pizza Mafia is probably planning a hit on me,” Jim Lahey on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2012

Bio

Jim Lahey is the founder of Sullivan Street Bakery and a pioneering force in modern breadmaking. Trained in Italy, Lahey introduced his signature “no-knead bread” method in The New York Times, sparking a global home-baking movement. His slow-fermentation techniques, minimalist approach, and unwavering commitment to craft have influenced chefs, bakers, and culinary programs around the world. 

Info

Jim’s books

My Bread

My Pizza

The Sullivan Street Bakery Cookbook


Sullivan Street Bakery Celebrates 30 Years

https://w42st.com/post/three-decades-of-dough-how-sullivan-street-bakery-became-a-nyc-institution/


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Mark:

Good morning, mark. Hey

Francis:

Francis, how are you this morning? Pretty good. I would like to discuss with our listeners, uh, the Manhattan Cocktail Classic, which, uh, we, uh, just experienced here in New York City, which we gotta call somebody and say.

Mark:

Mother's Day weekend. Oh my goodness. Oh, crushing.

Francis:

We presented at the Manhattan Cocktail Classic, seminars for the first two years of its existence. And on the Sunday. And

Mark:

that's, that's normally when we presented was on the Sunday

Francis:

and it's Mother's Day weekend. Are you kidding? It's Mother's Day Day. It's Mother's Day itself. It was Mother's

Mark:

Day Day and this year we had the, the hailstorm of, and for those of you who don't know, you know, Rutgers is in New Brunswick, and that's where our restaurants are. So Rutgers graduated. On Mother's Day. Yeah, it was nuts. It was 40,000 students graduating Mother's Day Mayhem.

Francis:

Well that was a really, that was an unfortunate move by Rutgers that probably took three quarters of a million dollars out of the Middlesex County economy.

Mark:

Oh, it took a lot. That's for sure. Certainly, certainly. Because you would close to that,

Francis:

you would have, you know, all the restaurants in the county would be busy or, or in this part of the county anyway, would be busy on Mother's Day. Mm-hmm. And then again, a week or two later on, on graduation day. But you know, if your restaurant's 95% busy. Okay. I had 105% worth of business, but then I, I lost a, I lost Giordanother crazy busy Sunday. Really crazy. You know,

Mark:

I'm, I'm gonna take this into it down to a more personal level because,'cause that's kind of my job and, and, uh, because I'm the mean one, I revel in

Francis:

being the mean one.

Mark:

Be, but you also took a day that's supposed to be all about mom. You made it all about the kid again.

Francis:

Yeah. Unless mom was graduating, in which case you, unless mom was graduating, you still combined her days, you know what I mean? You

Mark:

still took one of her days away. Exactly. Yeah. No, yeah. I didn't, I didn't get, get all that, but, uh, so you got to spend some time with the Manhattan Cocktail Classic While I was, was reveling in the revelers.

Francis:

Well, while you were minding the story, you mean, while you, while you kept our business afloat, actually, we, we, I caught the last hour, just the last hour of the Manhattan Cocktail Classic Gala, which is the mm-hmm. I, I'm sorry. That's the, that's the coolest consumer cocktail party in the country every year. Bar none. It's, it is

Mark:

the, what a magnificent event it is. I mean, just every great telian is in, and this

Francis:

year, by the way, is in the

Mark:

place.

Francis:

Well, and well, every great cocktail is in place. All the cocktail enthusiast are the place. The music they had this year was better than ever. They rent the entire New York Public Library, right? Yeah. 3000 of your closest friends. it's black tie or commensurately Fancy. You may wear a fedora if you have a I. What? I

Mark:

have to say my favorite thing about the change to this year's, what's that? Is an an app to see where your favorite bartenders are? Yeah. How cool was that? There

Francis:

was a Manhattan Cocktail classic app that you download your download on your phone to keep track of all the events that are going on all around the city and where you are and who's pouring what in relation to you. That was very cool. Yeah. And surprising. I didn't know that was coming. So, and the, the music was fantastic this year. They had, Vince Giordano and the Nighthawks. Mm-hmm. Uh, who, Vince Giordano and the Nighthawks are a classic big band. They play in New York once in a while, and they're also on Boardwalk Empire. They do a lot of the soundtrack for Boardwalk Empire. Right. Absolutely. And Ted is the dramaturg for, for the slavishly literal, and correct, you know, scenery and all, and all the stuff that goes on. And especially the drinking. Culture and the music. It's just, it's just phenomenal. And the whole thing was phenomenal in the New York Public Library and they set up, you know, drink stations all over. I was only there for an hour. Uh, I went to the Campari area, and, uh, I had some fantastic drinks there. Campari had a, a bunch of cool stuff, going on there. That was, that was. Terrific parties and it was, it was just great. one of the more interesting things that we have in addition to all the seminars we went to is on the last day, there is basically a spirits tasting. I mean hundreds of spirits that may not be distributed in New York, New Jersey. Yeah. It's not really

Mark:

a spirit sta it's, it's different than a, than your average spirits tasting an independent. It's artisanal, exactly. Yeah. The

Francis:

independent stuff. Mm-hmm. Oh wow. I found some really cool stuff. And so with your permission, I wanna talk about a few things, but with your permission, mark, I grabbed a couple of bottles of things that were poured there that aren't yet available here. I think they're just becoming available here. Really unusual things, and I wanna see if we can do a blind tasting. You have my permission. Alright, hold on a second. So talk to the people while I make a drink.

Mark:

All right. So Francis is, is literally getting up now and, and getting ready to make a drink. He's got clear liquids in, clear bottles, so I can't tell what they are. So I know that was a clear liquid. Yeah. Francis is stir, by the way, in case you're wondering. Francis is stirring and the bartender kind, not the discontented kind. so Francis really is gonna, has brought me back some stuff that he wants me to taste blind and that always scares me a little bit.'cause whenever you taste something blind, you always have the opportunity to look really, really stupid.

Francis:

I don't know how you're gonna react to this because I didn't get the opportunity to taste it blind, but I thought it was fetching. We'll see if you, if you agree

Mark:

fetching.

Francis:

I was like, what is that? Can I tell you something? Yeah. There's

Mark:

really nothing that I drink that I consider fetching. Well, you haven't had this yet. Now, have you not? Hoo nor Gator. You haven't had this Gatorade nor the finest red wine in all the land.

Francis:

Okay, now this is the, is the less interesting one to me because it's, it's a vodka and I find vodka. I think vodkas are great, but as a category. I find it a little less interesting. So what's

Mark:

really cool about having the show on a podcast and not broadcast, Terrely right here is Francis and I terrestrially and he hasn't even had a drink yet. Terres. Man, not saying that again. Uh, is that, uh, Francis and I can drink while we're on the show. How cool is that? Yeah. You're not allowed to have liquor in commercial radio station. Not allowed. In a radio station. Yeah.

Francis:

FCC,

Mark:

that's, that's so you don't get drunk. Oh, yeah. And say stupid stuff. Well, Francis, I don't mind if we get drunk. Exactly. You don't

Francis:

mind either. Our listeners, Can you tell, or do you have an idea what what the base of that vodka might be? What it's from. Yeah. What is distilled to make that vodka? Hmm.

Mark:

Well, one thing I will tell you is the vodka's dense. I get a lot of viscosity from it. Um, but the base of that vodka, I have no idea. can I guess, uh, make one guess and do me a favor, try it warm first. Okay. Because it's actually, Francis has made me a martini, so I'm gonna go back to trying it, trying it at room temperature. I don't, I don't know. It's got a little kind of carness

Francis:

to it. Little bit of a carness to it. Yeah. Um, is there a, do, do you find the nose kind of different at all? Very. and on the pal I find it. Well, what do you find on the palette?

Mark:

Like I said, it's, it's fairly viscous mm-hmm.

Francis:

For vodka. And, and even in its, in it's warm state, I find it fairly viscous as well. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna pour you a gin made from the same base material, which is, so they, so they made a

Mark:

vodka and then they made a gin from the vodka. That's very

Francis:

interesting. So, hold on.

Mark:

It always has to taste first in case you're wondering.

Francis:

I that's delicious.

Mark:

I wanna make sure it's right

Francis:

in there. I think you can really see that that's a different gin. It smells great, doesn't it? Juniper and, yeah. Yeah. But there's something else there, and you're not gonna be able to get what it is, but it's rounder and sweeter. It's unbelievable.

Mark:

It's plums.

Francis:

No, here and here. You said round and sweet. Here. Try. I was talking about you. Sorry. Uh, the gin is what I'm really in love with and that's, Ooh, isn't that crazy? Boy, the gin's great. Doesn't it almost taste like it's already made into a martini or something? It's just straight. I didn't even Is great. Isn't that fantastic? The gin is great. Bar Hill, gin of Vermont. Spirit from they syrup? Nope, from Caledonia Spirits. Good. It's made from honey. Ah, that's cool. They're both made from raw honey. That's cool. And this has Juni and they have juniper in the Gin. The gin. I think it's f Magnifi. Fantastic, isn't it? The

Mark:

gin is magnificent. I I, the vodka didn't, didn't make me say wow. But the gin is magnificent because you can

Francis:

almost get the honey there, but it's almost ethereal. You don't know what it is.

Mark:

That's really good.

Francis:

That's me pausing to sip, by the way. It's a little early in the day, but it's already made. I don't want it to go to waste. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna put this all up on the website under Restaurant Guys Radio.

Mark:

I get a little bit of mead in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get a little bit of mead, more, more than just the honey. I, I taste, I taste mead.

Francis:

and with the, with the gin. I think the juniper goes so well with that. That honey, it's amazing.

Mark:

definitely it is very, very fragrant gin. Yeah. you know, sometimes that almost gets a, a bitter note to it. Yep. When the, when the juniper's all, all fired up in there. Yeah. And this doesn't have that at all.

Francis:

It's so clean. It's freaking great.

Mark:

So taking Giordanother sip. By the way, Francis, say the show wondering what Francis is doing. If you get a little pause there where there's no one talking, that's Francis sipping on his martini.

Francis:

I was just about to say, the show would go much slower if we had martinis during the show every time just to allow for a sipping time anyway. I would say that my most exciting find for the Manhattan Cocktail Classic 2012 is, um, Caledonia Spirits Bar Hill Gin from. Honey. I mean, yeah, that was really cool. And it's their own bees. I mean, it's all New York State honey for their own bees. Isn't that crazy? You mean Vermont? Vermont? I'm here to what, say Vermont for you? It's all north. That's my job. It's north

Mark:

of us. It's all north of us. Someplace cold. Almost Canada. That's Canada light.

Francis:

and if you can go to Manhattan Cocktail Classic next year. By all means go. Yeah.

Mark:

It's, it's, it is a great, great program. I'm gonna, if you want, ask them not to do it on Mother's Day. I was gonna say, and if you wanna

Francis:

write them a letter telling them not to do it on, on Mother's Day, that'd be really terrific. Hey, listen, stick with us. We're gonna learn how to make pizza at home. No kidding. Really not. The crappy pizza at home in the, in the Toast oven. And we're gonna make real pizza at home, uh, with one of the, I dunno, most important guys. Having to do with Dough in America. Jim Leahy, uh, he owned Sullivan Street Bakery. He invented the no need method of making bread that's taken over the world. He's got a restaurant called Company in in Manhattan and his new book is My Pizza. The Easy No Need Way to Make Spectacular Pizza at Home. And we'll be talking with him in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant guys@restaurantguysradio.com. And our guest today is Jim Lahey. Jim owns Sullivan Street Bakery in New York City, one of our favorite bakeries, one of the best bakeries in New York City, and that makes it one of the best bakeries in the country. He also owns company Restaurant. He's method of no need. Dough for bread, revolutionized bread baking around the world. And his new book is called My Pizza. The Easy No Need Way to Make Spectacular Pizza at Home. Hey Jim, welcome to the show.

Jim:

Oh, thank you, mark. Thank you, Francis.

Francis:

Your bread place is pretty cool. You opened in 94 on Sullivan Street.

Jim:

Yes. Uh, I opened in 94. and it was a very, um, it was a very, let's say, uh, formative, formative experience for me.

Francis:

Well, your bread instantly became a hit around New York. You were kind of the bread king of, of, uh, of lower Manhattan. And were, I'm sorry. Thanks, man. You, but it's true. I mean, everybody, what is it called when you become something, but you're still it? What is that tense? I don't know what that is. I don't, I don't know. But you, I don't know

Jim:

what I, I'm just, I'm, I'm just a man. Who makes bread?

Francis:

Well, listen, man, uh, I cook, I

Jim:

cook things.

Francis:

Your, your bread immediately became the darling of, downtown. And, uh, your bread not only was just about in your store, but you began to supply a lot of really cool restaurants, which you still do. And, uh, you moved to bigger digs where you supply a lot of folks. Now let's talk about some innovations that you came up with. I think obviously the, uh, the bread shot heard around the world was when Mark Bitman covered your No need method of of making bread dough. That was a really important moment for you, wasn't it?

Jim:

Yes, that was, uh, you know, without realizing it. And certainly if I, I knew now what I knew then, and I was maybe more of a. A normal American, uh, capitalist kind of guy. I would've capitalized on all that. I just was kind of like tsunami and overwhelmed, um, by the response and kind of, you know, kind of shocked,

Francis:

it changed the way people will make bread professionally as well as at home. I mean, it was really revolutionary. Can you, you wanna tell our listeners a little bit about how, well go back

Jim:

to this, go back to this notion of practice and go back to this notion of standard. And if, if we're gonna change, if I'm gonna change or affect change in a culture, and I would love in my lifetime to know that I've changed the way we look at bread, the way we eat bread, the way that bread is made, uh, and also the standards that exist for bread.

Speaker 5:

Mm-hmm.

Jim:

The only way we can make that happen is not like, it's not the trickle down theory, but it's the trickle up theory. It's gotta stored in the home. Uh

Speaker 4:

huh.

Jim:

It's gotta, we, we have to unlock and unleash and, and help people get over their, their inhibitions or fears or whatever issues they have with like dough or wet, gooey, sticky things as it relates to food. And, and make it almost, you know, kind of idiotically simple or idiotically, seemingly idiotically. How did that happen? you know, the objective of the no need method in, in trying to get it out there was to give everyone, as many people as I could. The same aha moment, the same experience, the same catharsis that I had the very first time that I successfully made bread in my home when I was like living out in Long Island, out in au, or when I was living in a garage in Williamsburg. And, baking outta my home oven for street markets.

Francis:

let's talk about your book. Uh, my Pizza, the easy, no need way to make spectacular pizza at home. Now you have the no need method of bread, which you invented and you've gone on from your bakery to own company, which is a, a pizzeria restaurant, a P restaurant. No need pizza dough. We really don't need to need our pizza dough.

Jim:

Would you consider pizza dough or dough to be even the same family of bread?

Francis:

I do.

Jim:

Okay. Therefore, why? Why do we need, why do, why do we think. Why do we think that way?

Francis:

I don't know. Jim Lehey has taught us that we are, we've thought wrong.'cause evidently we don't need to. Yeah. I mean, I

Jim:

remember once upon a time, the reason why bagels and bread sucks, uh, and pizza sucks in Florida is because you need New York water. Have you ever heard of anything so ludicrous?

Francis:

Yeah, I, I, I remember that, Rumor or what is that a myth? I remember that Well. It's like,

Jim:

it became like a, you know, it saved more of a, when we say things like this, it's more of a symptom of what we don't know. Right?

Francis:

You made you, you didn't know, so you had to make something up to make it make sense.

Jim:

Yeah. You gotta have the water from New York, from Brooklyn. It's real. Brooklyn Water. These bagels are made with Brooklyn Water here. So, you know, it's all, it's all it's there. Yeah. We import our water, uh, to make our bagels and our pizza. Yeah. Jim, thoughts? Jim,

Francis:

I I just wanna interrupt you to say, I like having you on the show because it's a whole cast of characters we get on the other side over there. That's great. You were two different guys there. That was great. I'm like, no, I'm like 20. Oh really? You should see someone about that, but I know, but no, so the, no, the no need pizza. Your pizzas look fantastic. And what's really exciting about this is I think. Most people have an idea that pizza, really, you need a specialized oven, you need a Mario Bati oven with the fire in there, and it takes a day. Mario? Mario

Jim:

just wants to sell, sell more, uh, goods and, uh, I get it, man. There's, and he, he will. There's, by the way,

Francis:

by the way, they're also pretty cool ovens. Yeah. But what's cool about your book is you teach people how to make, and I don't think people are gonna believe it until they actually try it. Yeah. Um, make pizza on a stone in their oven at home, really possible to be great that way.

Jim:

Yeah. And you can make pizza at home. That is. Better than anything you could buy at your local pizza joint pizzeria, artisan artisanal, so-called artisanal Neapolitan, uh, caputo double zero zero bx.

Francis:

Alright, I, I just wanna put out there that this is coming from Jim Lehe, who basically invented the known need, bread baking, which revolutionized bread baking around the world. You know, first written about by Mark Bitman. I

Jim:

just wanna say one thing. You know, my, my bread is being translated into Italian. Uh,

Francis:

really?

Jim:

Yes. That's awesome. That's a huge honor to jump the pond.

Francis:

My bread is the first book and for an American book on bread be translated into Italian is quite, um, that's quite a feat. I know.

Jim:

I'm, I'm looking forward to the Italian book tour. That's,

Francis:

that sounds great. Alright, so, but my pizza,

Jim:

at home, you can make, using my method, you can make spectacular pizza at home. And the book is really trying to open up the language for what can go on. A dough, if the dough itself when you open it is the canvas. And there, there are a myriad of possibilities of some requiring that are vegan. I, I tried to do a, a whole list of, uh, a whole group of pizzas that are, you know, vegan friendly. Unfortunately, we don't have a, a gluten-free pizza. But, uh, who knows? Who knows? It's,

Francis:

it's called a bowl of vegetables. Yeah, it's called a bowl of, yeah, yeah,

Jim:

exactly that. There's a solution. There you go. A bowl of vegetables. That's the gluten-free diet.

Francis:

So, let's talk about, let's, let's debunk some of the myths that most people have or some of the preconceptions that most people have about pizza. I need oven that gets up to a thousand degrees to cook pizza. Okay. Tell us what, how,

Jim:

well, newer ovens often have like shutoff temperature limits, right? And sometimes electrical ovens again, have like a thermo, a thermal control called a high limit switch.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Jim:

Which will turn the oven off if it gets, if the internal, even the broiler goes over 600.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Jim:

Uh, you can bypass that sometimes by keeping the door open a jar and in some cases. With older ovens that, that like have broilers in the top of the oven, not the bottom.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Jim:

Uh, or new ovens that have broilers in the top. It, it, it, it's a, if it's like I have a gen air, right.

Speaker 5:

That's

Jim:

not like too fancy.

Speaker 5:

Mm-hmm.

Jim:

But it's heavy duty. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5:

So

Jim:

that broiler stays on the pizza stone, uh, that I use, which I keep at about four inches from the broiler itself at like the top rack or just below the top rack. Is, uh, gets to anywhere between 580 to 640 degrees. I find the pizza comes out better, the hotter it gets,

Speaker 4:

right?

Jim:

So ideally, you know, if you have one of those fancy, uh, little food lasers. You want to see the stone read 600 or greater uhhuh so that you get a real good finish on the bottom crust.

Speaker 5:

Mm-hmm.

Jim:

And you don't have to mess, mess with it or move it around too much.

Francis:

So, so, so, 600 degrees, getting the stone to 600 degrees is sufficient to make great pizza.

Jim:

Absolutely.

Francis:

And in your book, you, you discuss how to do that with, conventional gas ovens, modern and older, and also even with electric ovens that have shutoff switches, how you can get the stone up there, um, to make Yeah, you

Jim:

really do have to be, again, being that in the home. Mm-hmm. Not all. Cooking conditions are identical.

Speaker 4:

Right. And

Jim:

it's preposterous when, when, when we write cookbooks, right. That we presume that everyone has the same equipment.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Jim:

So, you know, when, when we send our, our recipes out to people to test, typically the recipe tester has a different oven.

Speaker 4:

Sure.

Jim:

And they have to kind of make your recipe work with their equipment because they're dealing with what? Other people have.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Mark:

You know, and your, and your home oven might be 15 to 25 degrees different than what that little dial at the top says. I mean, that's, and

Jim:

that, and that is true too. Yeah. You know, that is true too. That's why it's, you know,

Francis:

I just wanna recommend to our listeners that having that instant read thermometer very important. And, or even just a hanging thermometer in there is great. I mean, I cooked, uh, I cooked Thanksgiving dinner on an oven that I was like. That Turkey's never going to get brown. It's never going to get brown because Yeah, just the oven wasn't, wasn't getting up to what the oven said was, didn't have enough guts. Well, there's

Jim:

also the inertia factor as well.

Francis:

Mm-hmm.

Jim:

That, the thicker the stone. Obviously the better. I mean, some ceramic is better than cement.'cause there are some pizza stones that are out there that are made from cement, refractory cement, concrete

Speaker 4:

uhhuh,

Jim:

but ceramic like kiln tile or things that are like, like an inch or thicker

Speaker 4:

right.

Jim:

Are gonna retain more heat and suffer from inertia less and actually push back more, if you will.

Speaker 4:

Uhhuh Uhhuh because of

Jim:

the heat retention.

Speaker 4:

Right.

Jim:

Um. And, and also the radiation, the infrared radiation that they emit,

Speaker 4:

right?

Jim:

The ceramic, uh, shines invisible radiation and invisible light.

Francis:

and you recommend an inch and a half piece of stone if you can find it. Whereas most of the, well, I mean's out there as, I

Jim:

don't think you can find an inch you can find. Kiln tile,

Francis:

right?

Jim:

you can find a kiln tile, I think is, uh, if you go online and you look for a kiln tile, you could even, uh, you might even be able to find a piece that's, uh, that will fit your, your oven in a unique way.

Francis:

All right, so I have kiln tile, and then I also need to get that special spatula that we make the pizza on. Transfer to the, the stone list? Yeah,

Jim:

the, the, the pizza peel. uh, but you can actually just take the dough, open it up with your hands.

Speaker 5:

Mm-hmm.

Jim:

Pull your oven rack out if it's sturdy enough. And if you're, and or, or if you have other myths, you're not afraid of picking up something that's 600 degrees. Although the reason I don't recommend this is'cause it's dangerous. You can actually take the dough, put it straight on the stone, dress the pizza, then put the stone that's Insanely freaking hot.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Back

Jim:

in the oven to finish

Francis:

Uhhuh.

Jim:

And that works too. In which case you don't need a, a peel.

Francis:

Yeah, I'm going for the peel brother. I would go for the peel. I'm going for the peel. I

Jim:

would caution anyone when, working this way to always be to use an exercise. Uh, common sense and, and caution. Yeah.

Francis:

Close toed, closed toed shoes. For example,

Jim:

closed toed shoes in case that cheese should, should run off, or, uh, you know, don't, go to the other room and, uh, sit down and wa watch the rest of the game.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Jim:

While the pizzas in the oven. Otherwise you might be calling the fire department. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So. Alright,

Francis:

So I've got the peel, I've got great ingredients. Um, let's talk. The other thing that I think intimidates a lot of people about pizza at home is, you know, I, I watch guys toss in pizza dough and I can't do that. I mean, it, it, but you really simplify the dough and you simplify how to, how to stretch it. And, well,

Jim:

I think that, that you have to stop looking at. The dough is the enemy and, and realize that less is more.

Francis:

Love the dough, brother. Love the dough. Love the

Jim:

dough. Well, just, all you wanna do is open the dough.

Francis:

Uhhuh.

Jim:

Uhhuh. You don't wanna ky the dough. You don't want finger the dough. You don't wanna molest, or I'm sorry, you just used the word,

Mark:

you just use the word ky that I have never heard before.

Jim:

KY is a Yiddish word. Towe.

Francis:

Oh, see I got that. Um,

Jim:

I like that a lot. Ky you don't wanna plot the dough. You don't wanna, you don't want to mess with it. You don't want to beat it up. I mean, if you do, it has nothing to do. It's incidental to your desire to eat a pizza. That's just your, your issue,

Speaker 5:

your

Jim:

baggage, you know, and that might have a lot to do with your early childhood and the way your parents raised you and. Got it. You know? Got it. Don't touch that. Don't touch that. Don't touch that. Got it. You know, so, you know, we all have within us, and you know, for whatever weird reason, I don't think it's a bad thing When you introduce a, an adult who's typically doesn't touch wet, gooey, sticky things unless they have a child or, whatever. Mm-hmm. Typically, you know, we don't touch dough unless we're. Chefs. and most of the dough and our notion of pizza that's out there is this really bad. Industrialized, hopeless. Sad. you could say the pizza that lacks self-esteem. you know, the Pizza Mafia is probably planning a hit on me. Now, you mentioned

Francis:

earlier in your book a woman who came into your to company and said, uh. This pizza's all wrong. And she went on to list all the ways that your pizza is different from like commercial. You didn't crappy, didn't use that frozen dough that you can, you know, it's not floppy.

Jim:

Well, again, again, again, when we opened up company Uhhuh, I like to say, because I don't have an, I don't have a last name and ends and a vowel,

Speaker 4:

right?

Jim:

Because I don't even look Italian. I look more, I don't know what I look, uh, because, I have no quote unquote, I don't know, genetic legitimacy.

Francis:

No genetic BTEs.

Jim:

How dare you, how dare you make pizza? I. I'm joking.

Francis:

Yeah.

Jim:

But it kind of seemed that way. Uh, you know, how dare you not make the same pizza that I grew up with? Right. You know, in a, in a suburban shopping mall in Maryland. Right.

Francis:

How dare you. Right. You don't know what pizza is.

Jim:

You don't know what pizza is. There's not enough fucking cheese on this. There's not enough. There's not enough sauce there. And again, I, I don't wanna make that pizza.

Francis:

Right,

Jim:

right. That pizza makes people ill.

Francis:

Well, you know, the fact of the matter is, look, the world, even if you like that pizza, the world doesn't need one more place making it. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And actually

Jim:

we need to. To be cooking more things at home. Anyway,

Francis:

I am, I'm with you. And I tell you one of the reasons that we wanted to have you on the show was I think that while bread is somewhat intimidating, but pizza is very intimidating to most people at home. And your pizza book I think, really makes it accessible and it also makes me thank you. And it also makes me wanna come a company

Jim:

I thank you. I mean, the end of the day, this book is not a, an elaborate technical treatise, uhhuh. It's just a way to disarm the viewer so that they can approach it.

Francis:

You know what it is? It's a way to make great fricking pizza at home. And if you didn't think you could, you can. The book is, uh, the, I'm gonna plug you here. The book is My Pizza. The Easy No Need Way to Make Spectacular Pizza At Home by Jim Lahey, who is founder of Sullivan Street Bakery and Company in New York City. But the book is phenomenal and you can find out more about it on our website@restaurantguysradio.com. Uh, mark

Jim:

and Francis, thank you so much for having me on your show. It was terrific

Francis:

to have you. Uh, and I

Jim:

invite you to come to the bakery whenever you want. Damn,

Francis:

Skippy, you get a tour. Damn Skippy know I've never been to your, I I was at the Sullivan Street Bakery when you first opened up and then since you moved to your larger digs. I haven't been down there though. I've continued to eat your bread. And you know what, we're gonna come see you.

Jim:

Yeah, definitely come by. We will either bake or break some bread together.

Francis:

Maybe we'll do a little bit of both. Hey, listen, stick with us. We'll be right back. You're listening to The Restaurant guys@restaurantguysradio.com.

Mark:

You know, Jim said something at the beginning of that show that I, that I just don't think is true, I just don't think is right. He said, you know, bread in in these in fine restaurants is kind of the bastard stepchild. And I, and I really don't think that that's true. I think that's so many. People, and I'm one of them, I kind of get a feel for what my experience is gonna be. Absolutely. When the bread arrives, that's, I, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm thinking, you know, is this gonna be a good positive experience or a bad experience? And when the, and the bread and whatever dip slash butter they serve with it, oil,

Francis:

butter

Mark:

dip. Whatever. If there's spoil on the butter, eh, I'm not gonna have a great time. Okay. That's kinda, you

Francis:

know, I, I'll tell you though, I, I don't think he was referring to the fine restaurants, Uhhuh. I think what he was saying is that in so many restaurants the bread is an afterthought. And, uh, and I think, but to you, to your point, you know, when you go into a restaurant and you see that you get the. The industrial bread. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and you know what's funny? You know what people don't realize? Like, why are these restaurants so expensive? You know, that's, those are one of the things that restaurants don't charge you for bread. Right? So it's gotta fold into the, into the entree, right? But most of us are spending thousands of dollars a week on bread. Right. Oh, well, you know, people don't realize, well, a lot of us aren't. We're spending hundreds of dollars a week, dozens of dollars a week on bread. You know what I mean? So, I mean, when you walk into a restaurant and you think, well, you know, why are the entrees here? 35 bucks instead of 25 bucks? Well, you know, a person can eat$3 worth of bread in our restaurant. Mm-hmm. In a lot of restaurants, you could eat a loaf and it wouldn't be$3. Right. You know? But literally a person can eat$3 worth of bread. Nevermind that you have to order more bread than, and you can use, and some of it gets ripped up and made into bread pudding at the end of the night, it's just, breads can be very expensive if you don't bake it yourself. And if you do bake it yourself, well then you have a bakery. So all the restaurants have baked their own bread, or most of them. Also sell their bread to others because you can't amortize the cost of a bread baker. Well, unless

Mark:

you're such a big restaurant. Right. it's very difficult to roll that into the cost of your restaurant.

Francis:

So I agree with you both. Vic, I'm the ultimate diplomat here. I agree with what he said. Really. I agree with what you say. Yeah. So unusual for me. But you know what? I agree completely that you sit down and you have the bread and you know, it's that first impression of the restaurant. I just, it it's a, it's a big one. It's, well, and it shows you very few restaurants like. Take the trouble to have fantastic bread and then don't have great food. Exactly. I mean, there are a few restaurants that don't really care about the bread and have good food anyway. Mm-hmm. But there's al, I don't, I can't think of a restaurant that I went to and I was like, wow, the bread is great. Oh, and the butter is delicious, and the bread and butter's fantastic. And, and then the meal, the rest of the food is not at least good or very good. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, I, I can't think of it. So, interesting. Bread is, uh. The bread of life. I don't, I was trying to come up with something from, no, you know what, I'm sorry. Next time I want you to think before you speak honey, Brad, I just started the sentence and I didn't have an end in mind and I the show didn't it? Anyway. Well, I hope you've enjoyed the last hour of talking to the restaurant guys or listening to the restaurant. Guys. I know that we certainly have. You might have been talking to us, yelling at your radio, you bastard. I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys@restaurantguysradio.com.

People on this episode

Contributor

Francis Schott

Host
Contributor

Mark Pascal

Host