Happily Ever After Isn't Myth: Cultivate a Marriage That Actually Feels Good with Monica Tanner

In this honest conversation, Monica Tanner joins us to deconstruct the marriage myths that are quietly hurting our relationships. We dive in to real-life experiences, bad marriage advice, her latest book Bad Marriage Advice, and her proved approach for rebuilding connection and intimacy in marriage.  We explore her Date Journal concept and the beauty in writing down your love story.  We discuss the importance of connection dates and an ongoing curiosity in learning new things about your partner.  We unpack tools couples can use right now to move from roommates back to lovers. We get REAL. 

Monica Tanner is a certified relationship coach, host of Secrets of Happily Ever After and author of Bad Marriage Advice.  She's a wife, mom of four, RLT-certified relationship coach, podcast host, and marriage expert who helps couples ditch outdated marriage myths, build deep connection, improve communication, and reignite passion in real life. 

Connect with Monica! 

Website: www.monicatanner.com

Instagram: @monitalksmarriage

Grab her book, Bad Marriage Advice 

If you're ready to bring more comfort into your daily rhythm, visit CozyEarth.com and use my code: Unapologetic for up to 20% off! 

Get Patched! 

Start Breathing & Find Your Flow! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Welcome back to today's episode of Unapologetic Living. I'm Elizabeth Elliott. I'm your hostess, and I'm excited, it is February to have another um relationship. Should I call you an expert? I don't know because I know we're all learning as we go. I'm an expert on my own relationship. Yes. Okay, good. But you've got lots of great ideas for others in helping them cultivate, right, deeper connection. Yes. It is my passion. Yeah. Yeah. So welcome, Monica. I have Monica Tanner with me today, author of Bad Marriage Advice and the Date Night Journal. She is also visible, very visible on Instagram at Monty Talks Marriage M O M I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Welcome. So one of the clips that I caught was about um, I think it was a clip you were talking about your son getting married. And um you all of a sudden started wondering, you know, what you needed to share with him so that you know his marriage was a success. And I know that I can relate. My son got married last year and uh they um had done this long distance thing for over a year. They had met in New Mexico and then they they um cultivated this really deep friendship from afar with you know the occasional visit, but it wasn't like it was two hours away and they could just hop in the car and drive to see one another. I mean, it was a flight. Um, but their father and I are not together. And so I'm like, okay, my parents are divorced, and the marriage advice I got was definitely probably bad because I never got married. You know, because of the experience that I grew up in and the experience that um was passed down to me, and a lot of that messaging was from, I would say, and I and I love her, was from my mother. Uh, but in really digging into and being in a new relation, a newer relationship, six years trying to avoid those same mistakes, I've been reading about um polarity, the divine masculine and feminine, and how to weave these together and and where, you know, and even in reflecting through the new information and insights that I've gathered, you know, where I potentially did go wrong in my own relationships and knowing, you know, like when I was reading that um conscious uncoupling, which is the opposite of probably your goal, um, you know, it was like you still have to look at your 3%. If it's only 3% your fault, right? You still got to be looking at your 3%. So anyway, I thought that was really valuable information from her. Uh so anyway, so what brought you to this? I know as I said, I I heard that and I was instantly was like, oh my gosh, yeah, what am I gonna tell my kid over the next three months because they were engaged and then married three months later?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yes, yes. My my uh son was very similar. It he was very young, they moved very fast, and it my writing the book was just my attempt to like, here's all the things I'm not a hundred percent sure that I taught you that I want you to know before you get married, and that's how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah. So when you dive into the bad marriage advice, are you diving into the things that you'd heard along the way that is actually bad? Or are you sharing all the insights and wisdom that you've gained um so that the marriage lasts and is fulfilling for both parties?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I am obsessed with not just like I have seen so many couples that just tolerate each other, right? I mean, there's a difference between staying married and actually building a marriage that you absolutely love. And I know that the second option is possible. I know that people can experience their happily ever after, but it's not gonna happen by accident. It takes intentional um attention to your partner, to your marriage, to your relationship, to the relational skills it requires to do that. And so it takes a courageous couple to really dig in their heels, take each other on, stand up for themselves, and create a marriage that they absolutely choose and love to be in.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yeah. So what um, because I haven't read your book, it's gonna, it's on my list for sure now because I was like, oh my goodness, I need that book. Um, and the date journal. It just sounds great. I know that um I love that it really can what you mentioned in in again, another pose, that it's nice to be able to go back and reflect. You can remember these things, but when you take the time to also write down, you know, that date that you did have together and maybe things that were shared. And in in I know I love the three hours that you mentioned because I think Jordan Peterson also says something like you've got to spend 90 minutes with your wife before you're like, you know, getting even to the next level of depth.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yes. I mean, well, the reality is is how can the ultimate goal? I mean, the ultimate goal of uh creating a really, really thriving marriage is a deep and abiding friendship. And if that's the goal, you can't be friends with somebody that you never talk to or get to know or create fun experiences with, right? And so I talk about a very simple, and I'm sure Jordan Peterson has something very similar to this, but I've broken it down into a 3% rule. So you have 1440 minutes in a day. Here's the cool thing about time: nobody gets more, nobody gets less. It doesn't matter how much money you make, how much you can bench press, how important your friends are, nobody gets more time than anyone else. And so if you consider that how you spend your time is more important than anything else, if you choose to spend 20 minutes of your 1440 minutes every day, just getting to know your partner, be curious about them, ask them what they learned today, what excited them today, what challenged them today. Like learn about their experience during the day for 20 minutes. That's gonna keep you connected. Then three hours of your 168 hours in a week. So if you spend three hours doing something fun with your partner, creating a memory, here's the thing: date nights don't have to be expensive, extravagant, or far from home. One of my favorite date nights with my husband is to go get like a milkshake and take a walk. I love doing that. Even though we talk for 20 minutes a day, when you when you carve out at least three hours, you can go really deep and really get to know each other. And oftentimes when we do that, even though I've been married to the same man for 23 years, I learn something about him. Like I get like an insight into him that I didn't see before. And so that's the idea behind the date night journal. It's documenting your love story one date at a time. There's three simple questions about every date. What did you do? What did you learn about each other? And what do you never want to forget? And if you take five minutes after you go out on a date and document those things, at the end of a year, you have 52 date nights. Not necessarily anything that like blew anything out of the water, but 52 small entries about what you learned about each other and what you never want to forget about that particular encounter with each other, how fun will that be for your kids' posterity to read and see their parents' love story, right? It wasn't anything amazing, but it was lots of little things that kept them connected over time. And then to round out that 3% rule, if you spend one week out of the 52 weeks of a year doing something sexy and fun and without any other responsibilities, where you just enjoy giving each other your undivided attention, you can dream and plan and you know review the past year and plan and dream about years to come, that will protect your marriage against all else. And I I just realized, like I always talk about this, but if you do that 3% rule, you're basically it's insurance or it's like oil changing in your vehicle. Like if you will spend 3% of your time intentionally connecting with your partner, you have created oil changes for your marriage. You'll never your engine will never burn up, right? But if you don't do those things, you're gonna be dealing with a blown engine, right? Like the oil runs out, it all of a sudden, I don't know how engines work, but you've got friction, and then all of a sudden your engine blows up. It is much harder to deal with a problem if you've never changed the oil in a car.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Absolutely. It's funny that you use that analogy. We saw a counselor who used uh the car is a great analogy too. It's like, and and you know, because I know um, and I I'm not sure where you fall on um integrating counselors or therapy, therapists. I know that uh I read more recently um uh uh The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Oh, yes, I do know Laura Doyle, she's been on my podcast, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

And uh The Empowered Wife. And I know that she's not a huge fan. She found that, you know, through it was just the same stuff over and over again. I know that, you know, we we saw a fella, I thought he was excellent, but it wasn't, he wasn't, you know, you got to come back every single week. He gave us very strategic um exercises and to integrate into our relationship, with one being um, you know, at the and and this could be one of those things maybe integrated into a three-hour block, right? You know, little things that maybe stung that weren't addressed right away but are brought up. And instead of saying I'm sorry for, will you forgive me for? So that you're acknowledging, you know, like um, I can't exactly but but you're acknowledging your part. Where is it versus just saying I'm sorry for, will you forgive me for? So then they also have the option of like responding to that, you know, yes, you're I'm sorry for, will you please forgive me for, you know, I know whatever. I don't know. I was defensive earlier. Okay, you know, sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Okay, yeah, I mean, I think there are limitations to traditional marriage therapy for sure. I would say I think everybody needs a coach or a counselor in this area, and I will always recommend a relational life therapist. That is the modality of therapy that that or of coaching that I use. Um, and it's different. You do take sides, you do um definitely um empower the the more uh let's see, timid partner, maybe. Um, it's really important that you gain the skills to ask for or even fight for the things that are important to you in the marriage. And so I think when you have a couple where both partners is taking each other on in service of the relationship, not just you know, selfishly, but in service of the relationship, then you have a healthy, thriving partnership. Now, are you gonna disagree about things? Yes. Are you gonna fight and have conflict? Yes, absolutely you will. That's what creates passion, right? Learning how to navigate your differences is what creates a passionate, intentional, fun, exciting, evolving, filled with respect relationship. Now, if one of you is constantly just folding into the other partner, that's where you're gonna get a lot of resentment and scorekeeping. So it is important to learn how to skillfully stand up to each other and fight for the things that are important.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

So you know, you said what type of relational relational life therapy.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

It's RLT, it's a modality of coaching that was in therapy that was created by Terry Real. He has a lot of best-selling books. If you just look up Terry Real or Relational Life Therapy online, um, you will get a ton of information. But one of my favorite like pieces of work, it's it's I think it's an early book, but I listened to it. It's called Fierce Marriage. And it's like literally teaching you how to create a pass passionate marriage by showing up for yourself in the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

So now if we can back up a little bit, what brought you here?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah. I mean, my I I grew up in the era of Disney movies and rom-coms where they always had a happy ending, right? And so, you know, I just thought love is great, and what could possibly go wrong? You meet your soulmate and that's the end of it, right? Like that's all you get is the princess meets the prince charming, they kiss, and their life is amazing. But you you don't actually get to see all the behind the scenes, right? So when I was 12 years old, my parents announced that they were getting a divorce, and I thought, wait a second, you never see that part of the like that's not the ending that you know we all hope for. And so at a at the young age of 12, I just became obsessed with like watching other couples and like how are they um creating their happily ever after? And what I found was really disappointing, most couples that I was around, anyways, didn't seem all that happy, like they just kind of seemed like they were tolerating each other, like going through the motions of life. And I didn't want that. And so I was like, there has to be a better way. And so I studied it in college. I even started a master's program later in life. But what I ultimately realized is it's uh it's it's very much an inside job. Like I had to overcome a lot of the wounding that I got in childhood, um, the like my abandonment issues and my anxious attachment and all of that. I could only control my part of the equation. And but once I did that, once I dealt with myself and my inner child and a lot of all a lot of that that behind the scenes stuff, all of a sudden I could show up authentically, vulnerably, imperfectly in my marriage. And I wasn't so afraid that if you know there was any weakness in me, that my husband would leave. And that was my biggest fear, and I was creating that like because of all of that wounding and fear going on, right? So once I faced those fears and I just showed up as the best possible version of myself, which was completely imperfect, that's when our relationship got really, really rich. And so, yeah, I mean, I just studied and learned everything I possibly could about relationships, got certified in relational life therapy, and then that's what I help other people do. Um, kind of face their inner children, reparent them, and um really create that happily ever after love story that everybody wants.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

So you mentioned I I too am come from a divorced family and definitely also suffer with or have struggled with abandonment issues myself. So my parents um got divorced. They didn't divorce till I was 17, but we knew uh that my father was having an affair, I was 11. I think I was probably around 10 or 11 when I when I understood that. And my mother was also going through um uh she had been diagnosed with breast cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy and radiation. There was a lot going on in our life. And then so that was like a December, and then six months later, I underwent scoliosis spinal fusion at the age of 12. So there was a lot going on at 12. I'm so sorry. That was a yeah, it was this was just a lot. And so like I feel like sometimes there's a double abandonment thing going on because we didn't know if our mom was coming home because she would, you know, uh if she if her white blood cell count dropped too low, she would be put back in the hospital for a couple of days. I don't know that they treat her like that anymore. But um, you know, this was 35 years ago already. She's 71. Yeah. Um and uh and then at 37, she was rediagnosed. And I do very much think that, you know, when the body is stressed, illness can present. Like sometimes our body will speak to us in ways um uh in order to help us wake up so that we're living more in alignment and their relationship needed to dissolve. And I think she knew this, um, but it's still a very difficult thing to um digest. And I don't know how old you are. I'm 48. At that time, I didn't know anybody. I'm not 48 yet, almost. I didn't know anybody's parents who have been divorced. But like you, I look around and then later know all kinds of these families that we were growing up with are divorced and we're pretty miserably. I don't want to maybe miserable isn't the word. Like you said, tolerating instead of celebrating. And I do think it can be a celebration. Or more, you know, we can celebrate one another versus just tolerate one another.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Um, but I do think, as you said, you have to be courageous, you have to be able to speak up, you've got to um so but so I know I jumped around. You okay, you went through the relational, but you're saying you take sides in this type of therapy, yes, which is like different than any therapist I've seen.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yes, we want the weak to stand up and the mighty to melt. And so there's a lot of power dynamics that are present in relationships, and so yeah, like traditional marriage therapy just kind of validates everyone. Whereas uh in relational life therapy, we take sides, we help um the the the weak to stand up and the mighty to melt.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

So you okay, so you use the words mighty and then the weak.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Could you like maybe dig into what that might look like in a in a um marriage duo? And I I I ask this because um to me it it uh you know when I think of um and and I guess really, you know, I I I also understand what you are saying, but when you say weak, maybe timid, I see maybe someone, whether it's masculine or feminine, male or female, who can't speak up, express their needs, and maybe the mighty shows up in a way that's domineering. I don't know. That's what I'm using. I'm trying to just like understand when you use mighty and weak, and you were to look at a couple, like what does that look like? How might one come in complaining? I I don't even want to use the word complaining, but presenting their struggles.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, I mean, I think exactly what you're saying. I mean, oftentimes it looks just like that. There's a kind of a dominant partner who um relationally looks stronger, um, tends to get their way, uh, they're they're just more dominant. And typically that person is happy in the relationship. Like they're like, what are we doing here? Like, I'm happy, I'm getting everything that I want. And then you have a partner that's just a little bit, we call them latent. They're um they're they're not happy about how things are going. Their voice isn't being heard in the relationship, they're not getting what they want. They are uncomfortable and they want change. They just need somebody to be on their side or help them or give them permission or whatever it is. Um, oftentimes um it it takes uh a bit of standing up to the more dominant partner to get their voice heard. And a lot of times um I'll have like a latent or a weaker partner come to me and say, My partner won't come to therapy, they won't come to coaching, they don't think anything's wrong. And I'm like, well, it becomes your responsibility then to let them know and help them understand that there is something wrong. And so they're not gonna be motivated to make any changes if they don't, if they're not uncomfortable. And so sometimes the the weaker, weaker partner has to um, you know, change the dynamic a little bit to make the stronger partner uncomfortable. And that looks like, I mean, asking, asking them to come to therapy, um, help getting getting help, uh, explaining what uh they might be upset about or making requests for the relationship. And sometimes it looks like, hey, listen, uh until you agree to come with me to coaching or to make changes in the relationship, I'm no longer going to be sleeping in the bed with you or making dinner for you or um folding your laundry, whatever it is, you might have to um exert a little bit of force or short or take away comforts that you provide. Um, again, not out of spite or um, you know, passive aggressiveness or anything like that, but in service of the relationship. Like, listen, things need to change. And until you're willing to come to the table, I'm going to make it more uncomfortable for you.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

So right, I understand that. That that also, I don't, does that's could could that sound like an ultimatum to that person?

SPEAKER_01 26:45

It it I it could, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah, it could. But I get it. It's some sort of um, or even I've gosh, I wouldn't say like it couldn't even sound almost manipulative on the same token. However, it's sounds like uh a way to set boundaries, like this is it's a loving boundary.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah, it is a loving boundary. It you are not taking away your partner's choice. What you are saying is I have a request and you always have a choice whether or not to fulfill it. However, uh, you know, if you choose not to, here's what I'm going to do to protect myself, to protect the relationship. So if you choose not to come to coaching with me, I'm going to have to remove these comforts um from you. And and until you, you know, make a different choice. Like, like I can't control what you do, I can just control what I do in the face of what you do. And so you've got to make some difficult decisions. You've got to decide am I happy in this relationship or do I want something to change? And if I want something to change, I need to get my partner's attention somehow.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

So you work with couples in person, virtually.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Exclusively virtually. I don't see a lot of unless we're doing a live event, or sometimes I do um some intensives where a couple will come for a weekend and work with me, but for the most part we do it over Zoom.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Would you say that the clients that reach out to you are typically women? No, like in that individual, no.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

No, I have so many men that reach out to me.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

In fact, I would definitely say more men that reach out to me than women.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

More men. Okay. And is that because they are frustrated in their marriage oftentimes? And I I mean, I I hate to use that because they're not having sex.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

I mean, that's a big part of it. Uh you know, if a marriage is struggling, sex is always going to be part of that struggle because it's really hard to have sex with somebody that you don't feel close to. And when you're you're not feeling close to your partner, it's usually the first thing to go.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah, I agree. Um, and do you find that uh in golly? I I mean, I could go like I I don't even know all the directions I could go, you know, as I think about um how you know porn is infiltrating relationships today. Now you got people maybe having AI relations, like crazy stuff, you know, and um what would you say the biggest obstacle is for couples that you see predominantly? I mean, if you is it the lack of connection time, is it social media, is it screen time, is it just a complete lack of, was it maybe picking the wrong partner from the beginning? Like what do you what do you think? Like when you're looking like because you've been married 23 years, you're working with, I would imagine, couples who've been together a long time. And then you've got, you know, younger, you know, couples who haven't spent as as much time together. But as you said, there's still a way to cultivate. So when you work with a couple and you are trying to uh bring them, I want to say, back together in this place of celebration versus tolerating, what are some steps that aside from what we shared with the date night to get them to even want to go back out on the date or want to sleep together again? Because I have, you know, I know people in sexless marriages, people who are completely in sexless marriages and they are living in these marriages. And I'm telling you what, just as I said to Dan, I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

You're not living in a sex marriage.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

No, and I'm not going to.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Okay, because if I wanted that, I'd get my girlfriend over here or you know, somebody else, and we would just be roommates.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Right. Marriage is a sexual contract. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

I I think so. Yeah. So, you know, it seems like for someone like who's been sexless five years and they're just kind of going through the motions and have become roommates. Where do you where do you start? Because it seems like there that resentment, as you said, and if you don't feel close to your partner, you're not going to want to do it. And so you've got to figure out a way to begin to like break down that barrier that's been maybe created. And I think that can be difficult sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah, I look at it a little bit differently. It's a dynamic. Typically, you've got two partners that are locked into a dynamic that is somehow blocking their ability to connect and feel close to each other, right? And so the first thing you have to do is diagnose. I mean, that's not the best word for it, but you've got to figure out what that dynamic is, what moves each one of them makes that pulls each other into that old familiar dance that they can't seem to get out of. So that's the first step. So when a couple comes to me and they're like, oh, we just want to feel closer, we're not having any sex, um, you know, we're really, really struggling to make decisions together, to parent our children, whatever it is. Uh, we're not we're not being a team. That's just a little sampling of what people typically say. We're not communicating well. Um, the the first thing I do is I do what's called circular questioning and I get examples of how interactions between them generally go so that I can see the pattern. I can see what's happening. And that is the value of getting good coaching, right? Like if you're talking about coaching a sport, you've got a coach that has a different perspective. They're not on the field, they're standing, you know, usually to the side or above her. They're seeing more than the players are seeing, right? And so, you know, I always say you can't see the label from the inside of the bottle. So you've got two people that are locked in a dynamic and they can't see what their impact is on each other. So you pull in a third party who now can see what's going on from a different view, and then show them what's happening. And once you are aware of what the pattern is, you can start to make different choices. You can start to manipulate the pattern from your side of it. So if you change your steps, your partner will have to adjust according to what you're doing, right? So, you know, you you can start change with just one partner because if one partner changes their steps, then the other person's going to have to adjust somehow. Now, this could be in a positive or negative way. Sometimes you get a little bit of both. However, um, you need both partners to be to rewrite the choreography. So that's how that works. But the first step is typically one partner changing the way they show up.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah, I remember uh it makes me think about like, you know, when you go when you go dancing, right? If the lead is changing the steps, then you have no choice but to go to learn a new step.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Uh-huh. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Um, and I know that it can be difficult to um, I mean that yeah, as you said, sometimes those uh changes are not necessarily uh positive. Right. Um so going back to uh you mentioned also anxious attachment. Do you find that that is a value to understand your attachment style?

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Absolutely. I mean, if you're an anxious attachment style, um, there's a lot that you can do to cultivate a more secure attachment. But that anxious attachment, what you're doing is you're basically sabotaging the relationship because you don't trust it. Like you can't put your trust in it because of abandonment issues or whatever childhood wounding that you're operating from. And that's what I was doing. I was absolutely sabotaging my relationship with a very securely attached man. By the way, my husband didn't have it, you know, like it was very hard for him to understand what was happening for me because it wasn't his experience. Like to him, there's just enough love in the world. And like, you know, like it's it wasn't in his template to leave. Whereas I was putting that on him all the time. I just thought he was gonna have an affair with the cute soccer mom or something. Like, there just was so much that I was doing to kind of sabotage that relationship because that's what I was so afraid of. And so it wasn't until I faced that that fear that I was able to talk to him and be very vulnerable about what was going on for me so that he could at least understand or see what's happening for me. And so we created kind of a catchphrase when he could see me kind of spiraling and into my fear, he would say, I'm not going anywhere. Like, I love you, I'm not going anywhere. And that was a way in which he could support my healing. Um, and so, you know, bringing couples in who, especially when you have one or both partners who have it, typically the dynamic is anxious attachment and avoidant attachment. And so the more one partner acts out of anxious attachment, the other partner is going to withdraw, which just sends that anxious attachment deeper. It's just like it's more deeply rooted now. You're just you're basically feeding that anxious attachment. And so until you can change those steps, you you've got a couple that's just really, really um reinforcing that really negative dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Well, I um I'm and just from lived experience, I I I I did the same thing, I very much participated in that dynamic with my kid's father. And um, and you know, um he also, you know, there was this, I can't do it anymore. So like we were just feeding off of one another, and that would be like every Sunday. It was every Sunday, it was such a pattern. It became so you know, there was this, so it's interesting. So I would you you just said whatever you said, anxious attachment and then anxious avoidant, right? Is that what you said? Those two tend to, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah, typically anxious, those who are anxiously attached, they're very attracted to avoidant avoidance, and that's because it's a familiar pattern. Like you become anxious attachment through your childhood wounding. Typically, you have a one or both parents who are avoidant, right? And so you you grow up with this sense of there's not enough love for me, or I have to earn it, or I have to be perfect, or else, you know, love will be withdrawn from me. And so that's your fear, that's the anxious attachment versus you this avoidant attachment where, like, I don't like confrontation, you know, you're too emotional, like I've got to separate myself from the situation. And so those two tend to be very attracted to each other, and that's where you get the dynamic of the anxious, anxious and the avoidant. And it what happens is unchecked or like unworked on, that dynamic just goes deeper and deeper. The avoidance getting more avoidant, more anxious. I'm sorry, the anxiously attached is getting more anxious because what they're the feedback they're getting from the avoidant is you're not worth loving, or you know, you're too emotional, something's wrong with you, and they it's just creating a deeper and deeper dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

And so that would also be a dynamic you might pick up on when you go through this circular questioning, right? You you would I would think that would be pr probably pretty visible, very fast, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Because I'm outside of the bottle, I'm seeing what's happening inside the bottle, they can't see it. Um, but I can because well, I study it. I'm yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

So now going back to your book, Bad Marriage Advice, what when you dive into that book, what what um uh is it advice? Wait, like when you say that bad marriage advice, what what are you saying?

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Because what I'm thinking is for for decades, for generations, we've been giving the same cliche, trite pieces of advice, like happy wife, happy life, don't go to bed angry, um, don't sweat the small stuff. Uh happily ever after doesn't really exist. The right person won't hurt you. There's uh find somebody that completes you. There are so many just really quippy, bad pieces of advice. And the reality is, is when you're listening to that advice, it engenders lazy communication. And so basically, I just chose 15 of the most common when you go to a bridal shower or you're standing in the wedding receiving line and people walk through and they want to give you their best advice. It's typically really bad. And so it's either advice that my husband and I were given that we grappled with for a long time, or I have clients that come in, divorce is not an option. Oh, that's a big one, right? And it's like, yeah, why do you have a couple locked in this relationship where they're merely tolerating each other and they're not creating anything better? It's because they're operating on this idea that divorce is not an option. They're locked in. So why would either of them have to try? So it's just, you know, it's just rewriting that script of like, here's this is bad advice that you probably are operating under. This is why it's bad advice, here's how to do it better. And the bottom line, like the through line through the entire book, is here to here's how to um create better communication so that you're not allowing these um uncommunicated expectations to take over the marriage.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

So, do you find yourself ever walking a couple through the process to unconsciously couple or consciously uncouple?

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Sometimes that is the right decision for them, right? I'm never gonna tell a couple what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just going to show them the consequences, right? And so there are couples, and I have had couples who've decided to be sure, uh consciously uncouple. Um, because it, you know, typically what we usually by the by the time a couple is done working with me, they feel confident in their decision to either work on the marriage or to walk away from it. And they feel good about their decision. It's not something that they question anymore. And because we go through a process that I call, well, it's this is a a very relational life therapy um concept, but it's called um, hold on, it's called um relational reckoning. So it's where you ask the question, is there enough good here to grieve what I'm not getting in the relationship? And so basically you're gonna make two columns on a piece of paper. And what is good about my partner and the relationship? What am I getting out of this? And second is what am I not getting? And you know, we do everything we can in working together to see if we can't get more of the what I'm not getting on the side of what I am getting. But if we cannot get there, is it worth grieving what you're not getting? Is there enough good? And if the answer is no, then it's time to make a difficult decision and probably walk away.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yeah, and that's no, no one wants that. I remember uh before, and because it's a very difficult decision. I remember when I was trying to decide whether or not we I needed to step away. I was seeing a counselor at the time and she was uh kind of look through this sort of different lens, very spiritual woman, but you know, she's like, no one goes into marriage wanting a divorce. You're not wanting, no one wants a divorce. You're not, and I was like, but it may no longer be working. And if you can't get there, uh then it may be time to, you know, take a new step. Um, but I I had never really thought about it, as simple as that sounds, like through through those words when she shared that with me. It's like no one really, no one wants a divorce. They don't truly want a divorce. But right, because they would have never gotten married if they wanted a divorce. But there may come a time when the decision for a divorce, it's a choice, it's a conscious choice versus you still may not want it, but you also may know that it's the best thing for the relationship, if that makes sense, right? So we're um where I know that you've as we talked about, you've got your Instagram, you have your books. Um if people want to work with you more closely one-on-one, where where do they find you? How do they yes?

SPEAKER_01 49:47

So you can learn how to work with me and all of my free resources that I offer, including my uh podcast, which is called Secrets of Happily Ever After, by going to my website, which is my name, monicatanner.com.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Monicatanner.com. And then your books, are they there? I know they're available on your website, but can you can you get to Amazon, Barnes and Novis or other stuff?

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Absolutely. The easiest way to get them is through Amazon. You just go to Amazon and look up bad marriage advice or the date night journal.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

So um, and and to conclude, what would you? I know, you know, my podcast is called Unapologetic Living. What would you uh what insight, wisdom, nugget of information would you share with the audience about an unapologetic marriage, commitment, um, relationship? Yeah, like what would you suggest, you know, share?

SPEAKER_01 50:46

I would say unapologetically fight for the relationship and be yourself, right? Like ask, learn how to skillfully ask for what you want. And this is not meaning like so what what typically we were talking about earlier, the we we want the weak to stand up and the mighty to melt. We want the weak not to get so empowered that they're like, I was weak and now I'm strong, go screw yourself. What we want them to do is I was weak and now I'm strong. And so I'm going to stand toe-to-toe with you and fight for what's important to me here so that we both benefit.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Yeah, I like that. I appreciate. I do think it's really important to be able to speak that truth. I know that was something that I found, I don't know, I had found myself in a relationship between relationships where I realized like I was very good at speaking up and speaking my truth, maybe almost to a fault in one. And then in the next one, where I was like, I'm not speaking because my nervous system is dysregulated. I am actually a very fearful. Right. Which takes a lot of courage and vulnerability. And then, as you said, really knowing like I I love that your husband, just that the catchphrase, I'm not going anywhere. And I've seen that in other places, you know, through other couples who are doing relationship um coaching on Instagram, like just a key word, like I'm not going anywhere. Because when you've been left, it is hard to trust again. But I've also seen just like through stories, like there are people I and I do wonder this who enter into a relationship where they grew up with perfectly um happy couple, you know, parents um who have been cultivating connection and celebrating one another, but because they're so trusting, they also attract something that's not so desirable. If like I've been just like I does that make sense, uh yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Like I'm like when I think of my mom in your good judgment to trust.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Yes. And so you might not necessarily be able to spot the red flags because you've grown up in this space that's been so trusting, right? That you've been able to trust without a doubt. So then it's harder to see clearly that everybody is not like that. But then also, like I, you know, growing up in a home where you know there was already dysregulation, it I you know, I it's I tended to draw them in too. But do but you see what I'm saying? Because I'm like, I'm like, why did that happen to that? You know, does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Yeah, you've got it you've gotta be able to challenge your thoughts. And our thoughts are optional, and that's the good news. The thoughts, our thoughts uh create uh our outcome, honestly. And so uh what happens is we get triggered, we get triggered by something that happened in the past or what we believe, you know, strongly about a situation or a person or a type of person or whatever that is, and so triggers are happening all the time, and we make meaning out of what's happening. So, a good example of that is you know, a circumstance that we can't control is rain. What we can always control is our thoughts. So if one person sees that it's raining and they have the thought, oh, my plans are, I have to cancel my plans, we can't go outside, this is horrible news. Um, you know, I'm devastated, and they stay inside all day and just don't do anything. The the meaning they made of the rain is that this is we we can't go outside, you know, uh they're feeling trapped inside, and the results are they stay they stayed inside and didn't enjoy the day. They canceled their plans. Another person can see the rain and be like, oh my gosh, this is like a blessing from heaven. We needed the rain that's gonna, you know, feed the the garden and the you know, all the things, and and we can still go out in the rain and it's gonna be just put our our uh raincoats on and enjoy the day. They're gonna get very different results, but see the the difference, the trigger is the same. It's raining. The difference is the thought that they had about the rain, and so you've got to do intentional thought work, you've got to understand that your thoughts and the meaning you make creates the outcome you're going to get in your life. And you have to understand that we can always this is Victor Frankel and logotherapy and you know, man search for meaning stuff, but you can always, always control your thoughts. You can't control the circumstances, you can't control what other people are gonna do. Your partner, your children, government officials. We can't control what other people are doing or what's happening in the world around us, but we can control our thoughts. And when we feel out of control, like so much bad is happening around us, it's you got to zoom in and control your thoughts. And that's how you create the life that you want. It takes intentional effort and it's work. You got to learn how to do it, you gotta be willing to try on different thoughts until you get to where you want to be, until you find the empowered thought that gives you the results you want in your life. So, yes, I I see what you're saying, and you've got to understand that um you can control your thoughts. And in most cases, that's the only thing you can't control, but that's how you create the life that you want.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Yeah, the I love Victor Frankel's book. I've been wanting to reread that one. And thinking grow rich. I mean, he talks about that too in Napoleon Hill.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Yeah, I mean, tons of books, the big leap. There, there's tons and tons of books that talk about how you create the life you want by managing your own thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Well, thank you so much, Monica, for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Yeah, it was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Yeah, and be sure to check out Monica's work. Uh, I know I'm gonna be getting a copy of Bad Marriage. Uh well, I think it's great uh because I didn't really know, you know, what exactly to share with my son. And he's like, I'm not taking advice from you. And you know, I've been reading, I'm like, okay. Yeah, referring to me. I have learned some things along the way. Um, and I want to see that, you know, you and Jessica are super successful and um, you know, with information I didn't have. Um, and so, you know, I think over time he's starting to, you know, they don't, I don't know how old your son is. Mine's almost 24. So mine's 22. They actually they is he 23 yet?

SPEAKER_01 58:58

He's 22.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Yeah. And so I don't know, you know, I think he's starting to, oh, mom does know some things. Right?

unknown 59:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

It's a cool, it's a cool stage when they're like, oh yeah, maybe my parents did know a few things.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Yeah, it is. It is now. Do you uh think your your kiddos want kiddos?

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Oh, absolutely. My son and his wife have been trying, and that that's a huge challenge that they are facing right now. So we are praying very hard, and it it is one of those um really difficult challenges where you can't control those circumstances, but you can control your thoughts about it. And so yeah, you know, they are in a in a period of learning right now.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

So yeah, yeah. Well, I yeah, I know mine uh aren't quite there yet, but I know they want them. So I'm I can't wait for those little grandkids.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

That's the reward for raising your children, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:57

That's what they say. So I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Well, thanks again. Have a great afternoon. Thanks, Elizabeth.