From Disconnection to Connection: Fixing Relationships That Feel Broken featuring Lee Baucom, PhD

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Lee Baucom to explore ways in which couples can rebuild connection even when a relationship feels like it's falling apart! We also dive into the the subconscious act of hitting the pause button while in the throes of marriage, and how to RESET the pause button.  He shares tools to improve communication, break unhealthy relationship patters, and rebuild emotional connection.  If you are feeling as though you are in the middle of a relationship RUT, this episode is for you!  

Lee Baucom, PhD is an American psychologist, relationship coach, and author best know for his work helping couples repair struggling marriages -- especially when only one partner is willing to work on the relationship.  His philosophy is that when one partner changes how they show up, the entire relational system often shifts.  

Some of his most recognized books include: 

Save The Marriage 

The Marriage Repair Kit 

Emotional Needs in Marriage 

How to Save Your Marriage When Your Spouse Wants Out 

Connect with Lee: 

Website: www.savethemarriage.online

If you're ready to bring more comfort into your daily rhythm, visit CozyEarth.com and use my code: Unapologetic for up to 20% off! 

Get Patched! 

Start Breathing & Find Your Flow! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Welcome back to today's episode of Unapologetic Living. I'm Elizabeth Elliott and I'm your hostess and I am Glam and happy to welcome Dr. Lee Baucom. That's another night. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

You did.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Creator of Save the Marriage. Of course, we are in the month of February and we just celebrated Valentine's Day, I think, last weekend, or not this past weekend, the weekend before. It's already been 10 days. And so I think it's, I mean, I think it's always important to be cultivating connection within our relationships, whether it's our partner or whether it's even our children or friends, family members. But I know when I think of the work that you're doing, your focus, a big part of your focus is saving the marriage.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

That is correct. However, um the the way we save a marriage is by dealing with what you just talked about, that connection. So yes, um, and that so some of the principles that fit there fit everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Right. So, okay, so you created this Save the Marriage program. I think it's an online pro it's an internet program, right? Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Um and I love that so many things can be done virtually these days or online from the comfort of our home. I know that you often have spoken about, I mean, like you've got a list of books. Um, how to save your marriage in three simple steps. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Recovering from the affair, your guide to saving your marriage after emotional or physical infidelity, uh, marriage fail point, why your marriage is failing, how to turn it around, uh, the immutable laws of living, and then the thrive principles. Um, oh, and you're also the um first thrivologist, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:02

That's right. Yeah, you get to claim it when you coin it.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

So now is this work, and I know it says decades of work working and to help couples and individuals um relate uh with one another and just on their own in order to thrive. Is this um has this always been your focus?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yeah, so I was trained um both as an individual therapist and then I specialize as a marriage and family therapist and was drawn to, so there's a bridge point where I see the individual in the marriage. But um, yes, I was always interested in that, the dynamic, the system of the marriage. And uh, and and part of the reason is because I've seen some pretty bad examples in my own extended family of divorcing in destructive ways. And I was asking the question, you know, how do you do that differently? Um, so my focus um really all along has been family, the family system and the marriage system specifically. Um, I did uh part ways with therapy. I consider myself to be a recovering therapist. I did that a number of years ago because I I felt like there were some limits in what therapy, what let me say clearly, marital therapy offered to helping couples. The statistics aren't great. Um, so I wanted to find ways that actually did make a difference.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

And it's funny that you say that, and I also appreciate the recovering therapist piece. I know to me, um as a I have seen I have been to multiple couples therapists, I'd say four or five with um my kids' father before we decided to part ways. Uh and I and I and I don't, you know, I can't speak to the limitations that you're speaking of, but I did feel like we made just ever so it's like ever so small, the smallest of strides. Um, but we were never getting to what I would say might be considered the root cause of what was really going on and why we couldn't seem to sustain. Although we did have, you know, I I feel like we did have a couple really good counselors and who were uh you know provided really wonderful insight into um how we might improve things. But again, we we weren't we weren't taking the homework home necessarily. And I don't know, maybe that's one of the things that you find is that the homework isn't taken home. But in the last, so I've been partnered for six years with with Joe, and I know that I did not want to read do what had been done before. Um, and so I have been ravenous reading a variety of different books to try to understand like how can I uh cultivate that connection. Of course, he and I don't have small children together. Um I think about when when you when I've heard, you know, you mention a pause button relationship or marriage, like I kind of like lump that in there, like because you're so focused on the kids that you're not really doing the the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

I mean, like that's what comes to mind when I hear that for me and like my story.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

You named a couple of things in there that are very important. Um, one is um you said the the therapist often had some good insight. Insight never leads to change, changing systems lead to change. And so you're talking about how somebody gives you a good idea and you go, oh wow, that makes sense. But making sense doesn't change the behavior. And so um that is a problem. Um, when you build the habits in, you've got the problem. So let's let's track a little bit further. Um, your description of what happens when you have kids is the common beginning point for what I call the pause button. So if we track back a little bit, couples spend a lot of time, energy, emotions in joining together of falling in love, of finding this person, being attracted, getting to know each other, falling in love, and deciding that that love is uh going to sustain you for the rest of your life. And so let's do this marriage thing. And uh then after that, you go, okay, we've got that, right? We've got the relationship. So now we need to go do these the parenting, the career, the whatever it is that that has the and and you can't put as much energy into it anymore as what you did building the relationship, because that for many people is all-consuming. And you just assume that the love you've created is what will carry you through. And so you go, okay, we'll get back to us. Pause button. It's not a conscious decision, um, but it is a subconscious decision that I see um consistently enough that I when a marriage is in trouble, I can track it back to that. So they hit pause thinking, we will get back to us. And the problem is, back to what you were talking about, you're you have you create habits of disconnection where you had been building habits of connection while you were getting together. So now you've changed the systems in place. And so the system is now going, okay, I've got to be the parent, I've got to do the career, I've got to do these other things, we'll get back to us. And as you keep putting that, you know, I've I've heard people say, we'll get back together, or, you know, kind of back to us when the kids are out of diapers, in school, out of school, on and on it goes, or career. It needs to be at this point, no, this point, no, this point. And it's always out there that we will do it because now you're into habits of disconnection. Now, here's the problem. Um, we humans are uh connecting creatures, we need connection. And so if we pause the relationship, relationships only have two ways they go. They're either growing and expanding or they're shrinking and dying. If you hit the pause button, you're shrinking and dying, but you fool yourself into thinking you're connected because you're talking about the kids and what the kids are doing. You're talking about your daily routine and what's going on in the daily life, but not the real connection points. And so, because of that disconnection, we start going, where do I get that connection? Like if it's not here and I need it, that's part of being human. Where am I going to find it? And we start looking for it in uh over connection with our kids, over connection with friends, over connection with our job or coworkers, or outside of the marriage. And all of those are become symptoms of that disconnection.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

So, what would be the connection points that you're talking about? Because it's easy to talk about the day, the kids, and and that I know can be a uh forefront of many conversations. And then these connection points are missing. And what are what are they?

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Because if you've forgotten right, and this is that's a great question. And it um so let me I'm gonna talk through those three, but let's first talk about what people generally do. So um what you just said, those conversations about the kids, the day, the whatever, I call that reporting. And how we build a relationship is rapporting. How do we build rapport, not report? And so you think you're doing the work, but when I'm you know talking about what my kids did today, I'm just giving a rundown of the events. When I so how was your day is often met with, oh, I had two meetings and I had this and that. There's nothing of how my day actually was as much as a report of what I did today. That's reporting. So let's go with three levels of connection back to that question. Because if we can describe the three levels, we are creating targets for people who go, Oh, wait, I'm I'm I did that. So what do I do? So the three levels. The first one is physical. My dog is asleep beside me, and all she understands is physical connection. She'll wag her tail when I talk to her, but she doesn't understand what I'm saying. We're not it's kind of just our conversation, but she understands when she's up against me and she feels that love because she's a warm-blooded creature that needs connection too. So that is what we we have with other warm-blooded creatures, and that is loving touch. Um, so when I say physical connection, many times when I'm saying it somewhere, they'll go, Oh, you mean sex? And my response is no, but yes, that is a version of that. It's just not the only one. There, any loving touch, hugs, kisses, handholding, pats, any of that is physical connection. So that's the first level. Um, that is nonverbal. We don't talk about hugging, we hug or we don't. The second level is emotional connection. That is verbal and nonverbal. So as we're sitting here talking, when we're on the same page, you're nodding along with me. That is nonverbal communication that we are connecting. The verbal part is when we're expressing how we get each other, like I get you, you get me. When my wife laughs at a joke of mine, I'm like, okay, she gets me, right? And um, so that's a get. We just kind of understand each other at a some level. Um, then the other level of that is feeling supported and supporting. So when we talk about what's rough and when we talk about what's great, those moments of feeling supported. So getting and being got, supporting and being supported, those are the two that are the verbal parts and the nonverbal parts of that emotional connection. Then there is the spiritual connection. When I say this, people are like, oh, you mean religion? And my answer is no, but yes, that is one place that we express what is most important to us, what are our core values that comes in that. But there are lots of other pieces of that. When we talk about what is most important to us, what we most fear, what we hope for in life, that's all revealing this very deep, vulnerable place of ourselves. What most of the world doesn't know about what's most important to us. Here's the interesting thing that I've watched. People have the physical and emotional connection in their relationship, but they often fall in love over the spiritual connection. They have these conversations that are often long, hours-long conversation at some point. And I heard the story many times. I was seeing um premarital um uh counseling sessions for people who were getting married in seven places, in fact, seven places in in your home city. They had to come through my office for three visits. And so I would uh talk with them about how they fell in love, and they always had this story, this deep story about how they had this conversation. And they would go, you know, I was already attracted them, really connected them, but that's when I fell in love because I could see who they were at their deepest level. That's the spiritual connection. The problem is that's one that very often disappears after one or two or maybe three conversations about that, because you go, okay, we got that. I understand those pieces. As if they don't change over time. Um, and they do change over time, at least in how you feel about them, what you might want out of life, you know, what is most important to you. So those are the three levels. And as I watch couples who are disconnected, they often think that they are having those emotional connection moments and physical connection moments, but they're often from a very detached perspective. They're just like reporting these things and sure they might still have physical connection, but there it's it feels less connected than just a need. And then the spiritual connection has long fallen away. So the pause button starts to separate out those pieces. And as they're not there, at some point somebody goes, Wow, this isn't where I want to be. This I'm not getting what I want out of this. I'm feeling a deficit of this connection. Sometimes they can't name what it is they're feeling. There's just we're not where we need to be. We're like ships passing in the night, or we're strangers in the bedroom, or lots of other ways they'll they'll say it. Um, I love you, but I'm not in love with you, is a way of saying I have those feelings from where we've been, but they're no longer to the level that I feel this intimacy with you. So all of that puts us in those three layers that have um have waned over time.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

And it seems to me, so you mentioned these, and I I guess I'm curious, you mentioned physical touch being the first one. And I guess I could if I go back just to my own childhood, you know, I I remember watching the obligatory kiss my parents, you know, the whole motions that they went through that because my parents are divorced. And um, you know, but to me, that's more that I don't know, it seems like that could almost be like unless you're just like I said, just going through the motions. If you don't have, if you aren't feeling supported and you're not having that deeper connection, or the emotional and nonverbal connection, it would be more difficult to find that, find my way to physical loving touch with a human.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

I mean So I don't want you to see physical uh connection as the first one on the process.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

They are three levels, three pillars of connection, of feeling connection.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Okay, so not in order, not a hierarchy.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

No, it's not in order. Uh it's all and so when people tell me about how their relationship develops, sometimes they're like, oh, we were great friends, emotional connection, and then something physical connected. Other people are like, I was attracted to them, and so then we brought so it can happen in multiple ways, but those are the three pillars of connection, three levels of connection, not how you flow from one to the other. Um, you can I've seen plenty of couples that are still connected on one of those levels and not the other two, or two of those, not the three, and some that just are disconnected completely. So they'll have a perfunctory come in the door and little kissy, little you know, hug, but there's no warmth to it and there's no awareness that that is actually a fundamental foundational piece, as are the other two. Um, so we know from um lots of of studies that that physical closeness is biological for us. You know, we we need that connection, but we also need, as humans, the emotional and the spiritual. All of those trigger the feeling of being bonded and connected with somebody.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

So when somebody does hit this pause button unknowingly, subconsciously, you know, hitting this pause button. And I think others maybe even know that they're doing it, and it could be, you know, on purpose. I think there are those occasional people out there. Um, it's become safer or more comfortable to just hit the pause button. Uh what like how do you help a couple get back to unto reset that button?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, so let's go back to the you said some people do it on purpose. So I think that there are two paths to the pause button. Uh, one is the parallel path where you both are just like unconsciously at the same time going, yep, we got to do these other things. Yep, it's the kids are coming, we're gonna have to be parents, or I've got to get this career to a certain point. So they just kind of in parallel do that. The other is more of a um reflection process where you're like, okay, if you're gonna pull back, then so am I. I'm not gonna be pushing for that. If that, if you don't want that, and that's more the conscious, okay, I see that you're distant, so I'm gonna be distant. Uh, I don't think um, so in all the time I was seeing people, I never have people say, you know what, I wanted to disconnect. And uh the so there are situations where somebody is actually toxic, right? There, there's something that they need to deal with psychologically. That's where that might happen on purpose. Like, I'm just gonna pull away from you. But because humans are wired for that connection, most couples getting married don't intend on doing that. They end up doing it in parallel subconsciously or uh reflectively, but still subconsciously not recognizing the damage that causes. It's more like, okay, you've got your thing, let me pull back. So that said, we end up with the same situation. They're disconnected. Now we've just created three different targets, and uh those three different targets are a path back for somebody to start the process. Now, that's one of the things I've often said in my work is one person can start the process. Some people have said, so you think one person can save the marriage? And my response is I've never said that as much as one person can start the process. At some point, they have to join together. And uh, and so there the question is whether one person is willing to start it with those three targets. So the three targets physical, emotional, spiritual. And when they ask me, okay, so what specifically do I do? The problem is people can be at such different places in those each arena. I mean, it's not like they aren't maybe hugging or touching, or every now and then talking about a hard day, or even talking about, you know, I really want to do this sometime in the future. So there could be elements of that, it's just that there's not consistent and it's not habitual anymore. It's not there, the systems aren't supporting it. So my response is always a little bit more than what you got right now. That's where you start. Um, because if you do too much, you overwhelm what's possible. And so um the my dog is um loves to be outside. And her favorite thing to do if I could go to try to get her is to run from me, right? So I'm chasing her, and she loves to space a while so uh away from me. And so that's my thing is many times somebody will say, I'm gonna chase my spouse, I'm gonna connect with them. Well, they don't say I'm gonna chase, that's what they end up doing. I'm gonna connect with my spouse and I'm gonna make it happen. And so they start chasing them, and whenever that happens, the person who is feeling somewhat comfortable with that distance goes, Whoa, wait a minute. That uh and they start spacing. So back to the dog outside, I have to pace, I have to try to invite her into coming back to me, a treat, a ball, something you know, that would bring her back into not the chasing game. Um, that's what we're doing. So when people say, I'm gonna do, or we're going to do date night, or we're gonna do a romantic getaway, or we're gonna go on a couple's retreat or something else, that's often overwhelming to a relationship that's disconnected. Um, I was talking about this on another uh podcast, and the person said, Well, my my husband and I do date night. And I'm like, but it's because y'all have a connection that will support that. You can do that, but you're at a place of connection. If you're disconnected, that feels overwhelming. And so you have to come back, and it's a little bit more than what you're currently doing in those three areas.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yeah, I like the little bit more because it can be Overwhelming. I I um wonder when you talk about having a big brain part to tell you the truth because you you said a lot there. And um I think about different couples uh in my circle. Um, you know, and they're all going through different things in their lives. Um, and something that comes up is when you have a couple and that disconnection, right? I can see why a regular date night would feel overwhelming and what something little might be is like a walk or maybe some like a coffee.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And so let's just go a little bit further because I think you're you're on the right path. I suggest that people instead of saying we are doing date night Friday night, we're getting dressed up, we're going somewhere nice, we're you know, doing our connection, that's overwhelming. Less so if you say, Hey, there's that new restaurant up the road. I was thinking about going and getting a sandwich. Would you like to go with me? So now we've changed a whole formula. First, we've invited, we haven't demanded, we haven't told, we've invited. When you're invited, you can turn it down or accept it. And it shouldn't feel like it's a big deal to say, you know what, I'm busy right now, it's okay. Even if they turn it down, there's still embedded in there this level of connection of going, wow, they want to spend time with me. And for couples that have been very disconnected, that can feel like warmth. If a friend of mine called me and said, Hey, I'm gonna go grab a cup of coffee, would you like to go? And I can't do it, I still go, Wow, that was nice of them. They want to spend time with me. That's in itself, that's a piece of connection. So now we've been invitational, we've extended connection no matter what they do. And then the third part is that we need to not use that as an opportunity to um go deep on connection. That's a time to go, wow, this is a great meal, and just do, you know, kind of a slower build-up to that. Um, a lot of times people go, okay, that's my chance. I'm gonna have this big conversation about our relationship. That is not the chance. Those big relationship talks are overwhelming to a disconnected system.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

So would you differentiate, let's say, a coffee and an invitation for something enjoyable over running errands with because the running errands to me seems more mundane. This is a daily um a daily routine that we have to we have to go to the Costco or what have you, um, versus you know, really taking that time to carve out connective time without being too connecting.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah, yeah. And that depends on knowing something about the personalities. For some people, going to Costco is a fun, enjoyable. Let's try the samples, let's walk around, we'll just enjoy that. That is one version of that. The other is we're gonna have to deal with the parking, we're gonna have to get inside, we're gonna have to deal with all the people, and people are gonna hit my legs, and and it ends up being a stressful moment. That is not a particularly good platform for connecting. Um, running errands can be enjoyable if both people have that as a we kind of like doing that stuff. It can also be uh frustrating if that is also the platform. So it that depends on where they are with that. Um, time spent together is not necessarily all positive. And when you're trying to reconnect, you want it to be in opportunities of positive connection. Um, I think the danger though is good to go the other way and go, you just go do all the errands, or I'm just gonna do all the errands, uh, and living, leaving each other out of the fact that part of that is how we go get forward. And and I have a core belief that marriages that work have a sense of we're in this together, we're a team. So sometimes that can be a part of that team, other times that can feel counter to the team. But if you're nurturing that sense of being a team, then yes, that could work. If it just is another anxiety-provoking encounter, then no, that is not particularly connecting.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

So have you read um Laura Doyle's work, The Surrendered Wife or The Empowered Wife?

SPEAKER_02 30:49

I have, I am uh slightly familiar with it. So no, no expertise, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

I'm just curious because that is definitely a book that I've read, and I'm honestly surprised I read it just with the name. Um, but I know she too mentions that uh she does, she discourages therapy. She has she says almost always never ends well. I I don't want to say never, never say never, but um and also letting I I guess you know, when when I read her work, I think of this um masculine and feminine dynamic, right? You were talking about the chase, and um, you know, do you find that this loss of polarity as like David Data in the man search, uh not man search for meaning, that's Victor Frankel, um the way of the superior man. This loss of polarity where you have and again, it's it's it's I guess a different premise in that you know you're losing these three pieces on a subconscious level, you're hitting this pause button. But when you have um, you know, your masculine energy and your feminine energy, and people are vying for this same position that the polarity is lost, and you know, you sort of like become in a sense unattracted to the whole scenario because you know, you're like as a female, I was running in this like high energy pro productivity mindset, making all the decisions, and I felt freaking exhausted. And when I was doing all that, sort of taking over for the their father, like making these that I felt with that desire, like not knowing actually until now and reading some of her work that I needed a little more leadership, like someone to sort of hold the container and um make more of some of these decisions. So I wasn't making them all, you know, I I lost respect, actually.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yeah, so the some of that stuff is based on what I think are core values that people may or may not have. Um, so if you have a core value, for instance, of that leadership and those those positions, yes, those could be useful, but there are plenty of people who don't share that as a core value. And so that what you're talking about in some ways is not so much a struggle in those areas as much as an abandonment of what you were wanting to have in there. There and there's a a disconnect between what you thought you were, you know, what needed to do versus what you were wanting to have. Um, so I don't think it fits for all people, just having had lots of conversations with people who actually chafe at one area or the other that of that, and others who are like, yes, I would have loved that. Um they're still talking about for me a place of disconnect from what are the core values. Now, what you did mention that was important is therapy does have a bad track record for marriage work, not individual work. Just to clarify, not individual work, but statistically, 50% of people who go to marital therapy still end up divorced. That is the general population same stat, which means no change. Um, only 10 to 15 percent report that there was benefit to it. So 50 percent, 50 percent half, half of people who go to roughly half. Um it's roughly the same as the population, slightly worse, but roughly the same. Um, and 10 to 15 percent said that it helped them, that there was something beneficial from it. So if you go to your doctor and the doctor says, I think you need this procedure, gotta tell you 50% of the people who have it die from it, and only 10 to 15 percent uh say that it helped them, um, you know, it's gonna be hard to sign up for that. And even if they say 50% of the people who don't have the procedure are gonna die, you haven't there, there's no clear benefit from that, right? So um part of um those outcomes is why I went, what's wrong with our approach? Why are we getting such bad results? And why is it still the first response that people make when they say we have a marital uh a marriage problem, let's go to marital therapy? I mean, it's like marriage problem, therapy. Um, and yet the statistics just don't add up.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

So what do you think the I I hate to say problem, but what what do you think? Why do you think? Yes, yeah. 50% still, even after therapy. Like I said, we went, we got some great insights. Um they all had different um, you know, procedures or they were, you know, different uh theories. I know the last, I think the last guy that we used was uh oh my goodness, I don't think he was Gottman's work. He might have been the seven principles of a successful marriage. Okay, and so I felt like really of the of the people that we did see, he really had the most um insight and actually started to look dig a little bit deeper into our past to try to understand from our childhood why certain things were taking place. And you know, but we were in that place of we were there to decide. It wasn't at that point to you know try to save necessary, we were trying to decide. I think some people go to decide, right? We knew like this is a potential end. Let's go and see if we can give it one more go.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

Yeah. Uh and and so there is the decide part, which is decision therapy, you know, to go in and go what what's what's here. Um, so there are a couple of problems with therapy. Uh, the first one is that there are a lot of people who are doing marital therapy who are not trained as marital therapists, just by the way that states do licensure of therapists. It's not about what kind of therapy they do, but whether they can do therapy or not, period. And then they can decide what they want to do. I'm not faulting that, I'm just saying that is the fact. And so if you're an individual therapist and you keep seeing couples, you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna do that without the training and the shift in mindset that needs to come with that understanding. So that's a therapist problem. The second one is that therapy with couples often defaults to you've got a communication problem. I don't see the communication problem in the people who would come to me and say, You need to help us communicate better, they would communicate just fine, but they're communicating, they're delivering the information through disconnection. And so communication is just a method of moving information from one way to another. That's it. So if you're doing it from a connected place, that's good. I'm not saying communication doesn't have techniques to it, it's just that that's not the root of the problem for therapy. So we've got an orientation problem for therapy that's often there. The third one is that many people drag somebody who doesn't equally want to go to therapy into therapy. And the natural thing when that happens is to push back. So people would come in, it's called psychological reactants that we will push back as humans against things that even though we know would be good for us, because it feels like someone's making us, we push back. So that's a piece of it. The other is that they often feel a need to prove that there is no hope. And they're hoping to prove that to the therapist. And so now you suddenly have two people who are more and more dug into their positions. And the person who initiated it often thinks the therapist is going to have some magical way of getting the spouse to want to be there. A therapist can't do that. A therapist is there to work on things. Now, there is one other piece of that that you mentioned, and that is that therapy often looks back to see what caused a problem. And there is a substantial disconnection between looking back at what caused it and figuring out what to do to make a difference going forward. And so sometimes you get so fixated on that, and you see people instead of understanding some of their past, fixate on that. Um, so people say, I am this, and they're claiming something from that. I, you know, I've been this is what I am, whether it's I'm depressed or I'm a certain kind of attachment style or whatever, and it becomes their identity, not a way of understanding that moves them to a new path forward.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

So, and I I yeah, I I I um I hear that I hear that in uh individuals. I have a dear friend always reminding me of her attachment style. And you know, what I hear is like, quit attaching yourself to this because I don't see any way forward when you continue to cling. It's like, you know, someone who has Lyme disease clinging to this identity, and there's little room, in my opinion, you know, knowing when like working on the body and the fascia, anything we tell ourselves and the waters in our body, it's going to take on. So when we can feed ourselves and our fascia and the connective tissue different messages, we are far more likely to transcend, transmute, alchemize.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Yeah. So that let's just, I mean, I'll we'll open up the I open up the can of worms, so let's just pursue it a little bit. So attachment theory is based on studies of very young children and their particularly their mother, how they relate to their mother when they are in an um an unknown situation, how they react when the mother moves away from them, leaves the room, moves away from them. Do they act anxious or do they adjust pretty well, or do they just kind of avoid everything else? That's kind of the frame that was used. That theory is very strong. We have lots of research on that. That applies to children. Children attached to adults to survive. So when I talk about connection, that is a mutual thing because it's between adults choosing to do that. There's a choice there. So the first thing is we're talking about attachment theory on how it fit to kids, and then it's been extrapolated, secondly, to adults in ways that actually are not supported by the research. We do have tendencies that can come from our childhood if we don't learn from them, if we don't challenge them, if we don't try to change them. And so when people put that in, there different studies show different levels of how much what percentage that actually affects us. It's not 100%, it's nowhere near 100%. It some studies show it's not even near 50% of who we are in attachments with adults. So, first, childhood wrongly attached to adulthood ideas. Second, it assumes that you are that and that's who you are. The third thing is that anybody in a troubled relationship is natural for them to have some anxiety. And so when they express that, they go, Oh, that's my anxious style. No, it would be natural if you are in a marriage that you want to have go on and there's trouble there, to feel some anxiety about that. It has nothing to do with your attachment style, it's just your emotional response to a threatening situation. So if you felt normal in that, like it had no impact on you, I would actually classify that as a problem response that you're not aware of the threat of that. So um, anyway, attachment theory um has some flaws to it when it's not applied just to kids. I'm not saying it has no bearing, it's just not the bearing that people put on it.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

So, okay, so you've got the pause button marriage. What about the marriages where there have been, well, for example, infidelity or uh lots of pain and despair, maybe with uh an alcoholic, you know, in an alcoholic home? How does, because when I think about reconnecting or cultivating connection again and without having to just, you know, unpack and unpack and revisit and revisit some of the past things, how do two people move through and truly forgive and get to this space where it almost feels like in some ways the nervous systems would have to re-regulate so that they feel safe enough with the other in order to cultivate that deeper connection? Or otherwise, I you know, I don't know how it you could get there.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

So addictions is uh kind of a separate issue because addictions has some biological pieces to that drive it, uh especially around alcoholism and substances, right? There that that's a truly a body adaptation to that or misadaptation to those substances. And yet at the same time, it's behavioral in that it it often is a way of avoiding dealing with the situation. So when things are tough, you're choosing a method of numbing on that, right? So many times a disconnected relationship, the feeling of that disconnection, people don't recognize that it also can fuel some behaviors. And so numbing out the behavior so you're not aware of the loneliness or not feeling the loneliness so badly can be attached to that. It's just that it has a whole nother layer to it. Infidelity, uh, with the exception of those who are actually in addictive phases of it, uh, where they are addicted to sex or uh, you know, feeling love, sex or infatuation is the two addictions. Let's say it kind of whatever it is of normal, unnormal, kind of typical affair, is a symptom of the disconnection, that they were a disconnected relationship, and one person chose to not honor the boundaries of the relationship. They didn't honor that, and so they are fully responsible for having you know broken the boundaries. Both people are, though, part of the disconnection that was there that made a vulnerability, and so um very vulnerable or very um strong connections, very strong connections with strong boundaries make a relationship pretty affair-proof. When there's disconnection, now there's a possibility. When somebody doesn't hold the boundaries, now we've got a problem. And so getting back is the capacity of going, okay, I'm willing to abide by the boundaries and recognize that we need to build our connection and maintain that. Not all couples survive that. I have seen lots of couples though who come out of that much stronger because now they have realized the importance of the connection and they can see that they were part of that disconnection and they don't want to again.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

So, okay, so your save the marriage program online is does that walk couples through? Does it help with behavioral shifts? I mean, you say just a little bit more, which I think is great. I wrote a book called The Self-Love Leap. It's just little things that add up to bigger things. Uh you are just like, um and I I I wrote it because I wanted it to feel doable. Anything that feels like you're, you know, gonna go out and deadlift 405 pounds when you haven't even lifted a 30-pound kettlebell isn't gonna, it's not gonna work, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

You're gonna feel like uh you're feeling when that's not the goal. You want to feel successful. Um but to think about you, you know, I I don't want to say a time frame. Uh last week I spoke to a woman, uh Monica Tanner of Monica Monty Loves Talks Marriage. And, you know, her magic number was three hours a week of connection time that really was not necessarily a date night, but just communicating, like over the, you know, that on on more than just the day-to-day and more than just the kids. And I think Jordan Peterson mentioned the same figure, like before you get the date night, you know, your wife needs 90 minutes. Yeah, or no, no, 90. Oh, he said 90 minutes, I think. So I'm off on the time there. I think he said 90 minutes, and she's saying three hours a week.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

I I am more concerned about the daily habits.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Um, so it's not a time frame because that imposes something that somebody else has decided is necessary for that. For me, it's a if you realize that you're disconnected and you're disconnected around these three areas, how long does it take to sit beside my wife and watch something on TV but be in? Physical touch with her. I mean, it's not adding any more to my time. Um, how long does it take me to ask her about how her day actually went and pay attention to it? Often not a lot of time, to have some times when we talk about what is most important to us now, what is the big thing now? Um, and and so the it there's almost a recovery part of that versus a continuing part. Momentum is what we're talking about. Um, I when I was a when I was younger, my cars were crappy cars and I pushed them a lot. And so uh what I realized is that the hardest part of the process was getting it moving. The momentum would carry it, and that was true when people fell in love. There was a lot of energy, and then to keep it going doesn't require nearly as much, but it does require some. And then when it comes to a sudden stop, when it runs out of momentum, you've got to get it going again. How long that would take, it's more the effort that's involved because I've got to get I've got to get that push in to get it started. But I can't do the date night and all those other things. You've got to start slow and build it up. But once you've built it up, you know, it's that kind of that crossing that point when it's now moving, it doesn't take as much energy. It's more about the uh focus and the putting in the effort than how much time.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Um, I also wanted to just jump backwards. You mentioned one person can get it started. I 100% agree. Um, I think, and uh I think even um, you know, Laura Doyle talks about that. If you just make these subtle shifts, right? If somebody is making the shifts, the other people have to change their dance a little bit. It's gonna look a little bit different. Whether or not they they join you for the momentum piece, that's up to them. But you can just with subtle shifts, everything has to shift.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

You start with a process that you have control over. And I've heard a lot of people like, what can I do? My spouse won't join me. And I'm like, Wait, there are lots of things you can do. When if you think about it, so what I get from people is well, it takes two to tango. And I'm like, you're already tangoing. I mean, you that was the choice you made. When you got married, you started tangoing. Whether you like the dance you're tangoing right now is the question. Do you like the steps you're doing? If not, you get to choose how they change, you get to choose your part of that. You don't that doesn't guarantee how they're gonna do their dance steps. But often people will adjust when it's there, partly because we are human connectors. I mean, that is we need that. And so if suddenly it's there, it's kind of like if you're thirsty and you get a little water, you go, Oh, I'm I think I'll drink some more here. And and you want to stick around for that. Um, and so one person offering that is often the one with you know, here's the here's the glass, and let me give you a sip, and let's see if you'd like some more.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

So, where can people find your work? How can they work with you? Do you you work with couples and like I know it's a virtual? So it'd be like this kind of scenario.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

I do well, I do it by phone generally. Um, and I have a team of coaches that also work with people, but so there are two possibilities. Let's say that you go, we are truly in trouble, like we're on the edge. My spouse is not sure they want to stay in the marriage. That is the save the marriage system, and that's savethemarriage.com. Um, so save the marriage.com is for those who just are like, we've got to make a shift or we are gone. For those who are in that pause and go, we can't stay here. That is what the unpause app is for. And that's an app I created because apps can remind you to change your habits. You know, they can send you a reminder. There's education in there, there are exercises, there's a process to walk you through from the pause point to getting unpaused. So unpause app. And that's at unpauseyourmarriage.com. So unpause yourmarriage.com. Um, that app is specifically designed for either one or both people to figure out how to start shifting the relationship back off of the pause button and get it back to connection.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Okay, and one final question. What would you, what would be the advice to newlyweds so that they never hit that pause button?

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Being aware of the danger of the pause button is the start. And so then you go, what habits are we, even though we might have to put energy in these other things, what habits do we want to carve out for the physical, the emotional, and the spiritual? And have that to be a conscious conversation. People often unconsciously hit the pause button. So to have a conscious conversation about how do we want to stay connected will keep you out of that. And seeing each other as a team, we're in this together, we're the team, gets you way beyond because then you're asking the question how do we best play together? You know, what is our way of staying in this game, the best way together that we can.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

And then what kind of success rate do you have?

SPEAKER_02 56:29

So um, people coaching with me, I used to track it directly, and that was 80 to 85 percent of the people stayed together. The problem is now a lot of people are just going through my program and it's a little harder to track, but um the the process behind it is the exact same. And that was with 80, 85% success.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

Well, I love it. I appreciate your time. It's been great. I I, you know, uh coming from a divorced home, um, and then um, you know, oh gosh, I hate breaking up a home of my own. It's it's no one, like you said, nobody wants that disconnect. Nobody wants a divorce. They don't want that. Um sometimes it might be the right decision. Um, but I would love to see um, you know, all marriages thrive and survive. My son and his, he got married last July. And um, you know, I I wonder, you know, how did I set him up? His, you know, his um wife's parents have been married, I want to say, for like 30 some odd years. So they're doing great. But, you know, there's always that fear. I hope I gave him the insight and wisdom the best I could. And I'm sure they'll they're they're they're navigating their own journey now. Um, and that's you know, that's all I can do. And that's everybody, everybody's on their own journey. Um, but you know, I've tried to share my peace, but his I'm not listening to you, mom. You and your relationship, you know, and so it's a it's a harder pill for him to, it's he doesn't want to hear anything, but I've read a bunch lately because I do want nothing but success for a marriage.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

A lot of times it's not until people hit a speed bump that they're able to hear, but um to have voices around them is important. And to so from the thriving perspective, we all do the best we can given where we are, and we offer what we can and um know that people can grow.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Well, thank you so much, Lee, for joining me today. And be sure to check out, I guess, save the marriage.com. And if you're not quite there, unpause your marriage.com, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:33

That's correct. Save the marriage.com if you're the books. Yeah, that's correct too.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

You also have just Leib, right? Lee Balcom.com.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

I've got a lot of websites. Libalcom.com is more about the books, uh, so people can see the books that are there. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

Okay. All right. Well, I appreciate it. You have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Thank you. You too.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Uh-huh.