The Masters Athlete Survival Guide
We explore thriving as an athlete after 40. Each episode, we’ll dive into tips, hacks, and inspiring stories from seasoned athletes and our personal experience. Whether you’re a weekend warrior or a competitive pro, this podcast is your playbook for staying fit, strong, and motivated
The Masters Athlete Survival Guide
The Power of Coaching for Masters Athletes with Dr. Charles Infurna
What if you could reignite your athletic passion after a major life setback? Discover the transformative power of relentless support and friendship in our latest episode of the Masters Athlete Survival Guide. We sit down with Dr. Charles Infurna, an expert in education and executive leadership, who shares his incredible journey of motivating John Katalinas to return to athletics post-divorce. Dr. Charles's unwavering dedication, from providing gear and transportation to fostering an accidental team dynamic in track and field, offers a poignant look at how camaraderie in sports can lead to profound personal growth and lasting friendships.
In a segment that truly highlights the impact of coaching, we delve into the innovative methods of Judd Logan, a four-time Olympian in the hammer throw. Learn how Logan turned Ashland University into a unique Olympic training hub, offering housing, health insurance, and meal plans to post-collegiate throwers. Through the inspiring story of AG Kruger, who rose from a Division II National Champion to an Olympic athlete under Logan's guidance, we underscore the critical role of coaches in reigniting an athlete's potential. Additionally, we discuss the importance of having a coach for masters athletes, illustrated by a personal anecdote involving an Olympic distance triathlon.
Balancing training with personal responsibilities and physical limitations is no easy feat, especially as athletes age. Dr. Charles provides valuable insights into realistic goal-setting and the financial and time commitments required for coaching. He also highlights the evolving motivations of athletes, emphasizing the value of community and the importance of staying healthy. Through stories of athletes like Luis Rivera, Dr. Charles champions a coaching philosophy that prioritizes supportive relationships over performance metrics, culminating in the release of the inspiring new book, "The Throwing Circle." Tune in to explore how modern coaching techniques can help athletes of all ages and stages achieve their dreams.
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New episodes come out every other Thursday!
Welcome to the Master's Athlete Survival Guide, where we explore the secrets to thriving in sports after 40. I'm John Catalinas and, along with Scott Fyke, we'll dive into training tips, nutrition hacks and inspiring stories from seasoned athletes who defy age limits. Whether you're a weekend warrior or a competitive pro, this podcast is your playbook for staying fit, strong and motivated. Let's get started and we're back. Hey everybody. Today we've decided that we are not the end-all, be-all when it comes to information, so we've asked for an incredibly intelligent guest to join us today. Today, we have Dr Charles Inferna. Say hi, dr Charles.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, how are you? This is so fun.
Speaker 1:Dr Charles is a doctor of education and executive leadership, with undergrad degrees in curriculum and child education, and he's most famously known for the person that got me off the couch. So he has a breadth of 20 years of knowledge of dealing with cranky old men, athletes, as well as coaching some superior athletes on his own. So, dr Charles, why don't you?
Speaker 3:introduce yourself Well, Dr Charles, before you get into it. I've got to say you must be a miracle worker, because if you got John's ass off the couch, away from that bag of Cheetos and doing something, and that's what's led to this, oh, you have no idea.
Speaker 1:You are incredible.
Speaker 3:So so now please take the accolades that you deserve and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's we'll back up slightly, charles, because, let's look, we'll talk about me getting off the couch because that's that's part of the thing in this podcast because I wasn't just on the couch, I was on the couch post-divorce no money faking, facing, couldn't afford the gas to drive to attract me. So somebody I remember, somebody out of the blue, didn't, didn't know me, had no idea who I was really, other than I was on the alumni list and uh, reached out at, probably through Facebook Cause that was the early days of Facebook, I think it was MySpace Maybe and was relentless in you need to throw, you need to throw, you need to throw.
Speaker 1:And I know I've told the story on previous episodes, but he bought me throwing shoes because my first excuse was I didn't have throwing shoes. He would pick me up to take me to meets Yep. And we went to a meet in the college we both went to for, don't you state? And I threw the qualifying distance in the 35 pound weight for the suniac meet? Yep, and immediately he just looked at me goes.
Speaker 3:See, I knew it what he left out here is, and you got to tell me if this is true. John said as soon as I got out of the car I'm like I, I don't belong here, I shouldn't be here.
Speaker 2:That was part of it, but even before so it wasn't. I definitely pursued John on Facebook. However, I don't know if John remembers we met the first time at the White Inn and it was January of 2008. And there was like some alumni function with you know, some of the other guys that graduated in the 70s and 80s, and I recognized you from Coach Ulrich's journals right, you remember those like blue carbon copy pieces Of course I do.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I took all of those when I left fredonia in 04, so I have basically the vault from 76 2002 at my parents house still good and in the back and the back was always was pictures of the teams, right, yep, and there you are, like right in the middle back row, and I was like this guy looks really familiar and you're on and you're on the honor roll. Well, you were, well you still are now for the shop, but you were back then for the weight, uh, I think the hammer also yep I was like, wow, like this guy could like still throw.
Speaker 2:That's cool that he came out. So, and then and then the, the persuasion came after the fact.
Speaker 1:But yes, yeah, yeah, and I I I owe charles so much because he was relentless but he was also.
Speaker 1:I mean, he was my best friend at my worst time and we had all sorts of stories and laughs and I suspect there will have to be a part two where we go through a lot of that, because there was a lot when it comes to accidental team building and experiences and just making me not feel like a foreigner going to, like, high level collegiate meets or, or I don't know, maybe, uh, an olympic trials warm-up in bero with the, the elite of the elite and hammer throwing. You know stuff like that no big deal.
Speaker 2:but that was so fun though. Right like if you, if you think back to it like I, look at track as like fantasy camp. Right Like we, we, we, as throwers, can go to meets and even Highland games like a strongman competition and you could compete with the best athletes in the world. Right, and I think we were part of this fraternity one because we were interested to, we would travel to these meets and we were kind of included in I don't know just like the development of like that time of throwing. I think, right Like we would drive three or four hours to a track meet to take six throws, to drive three or four, three or four hours back home.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, and you can't do that with any other sport, right, yeah, and and you.
Speaker 1:You can't do that with any other sport, right Like so I think. I think it's really cool to track with the people that we were involved with that. We're still acquaintances with that, um, you know, those friendships don't die Like, you're just part of this. Hammer throw ever in 20 years was in front of judd logan, um, and it was, and it was after ag kruger, um so yes, it was yeah, yeah, oh.
Speaker 1:I I'm. I'm aware I am. I am blessed for the people I've met and the grace that they have shown me and that that's kind of at the core of this, of this podcast, is right, you're a master's athlete. Now what do you do? And I want to be the virtual charles inferno to anybody who's willing to listen. So I appreciate that nostalgia aside, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself well, I, I think you got the education part right.
Speaker 2:um, I think it's also important to share that. So growing up, my parents traveled to everything with my brother and I and I think that really helped set the foundation for us. Um, you know, my parents are immigrants to the US. My mom came when she was eight years old, you know she didn't speak English. She was on a essentially a boat from uh Rome to the Port Authority in New York City in 1964. And my dad came over after he served a couple stints in the Army in Italy in 76. And they never missed anything.
Speaker 2:So track, basketball, football, baseball, like whatever, and in the college it was the same right Like they were always supportive. They came to Fredonia. John knows we used to throw the 35 pound weight outside, even though we had a beautiful indoor field house. We couldn't damage the floor, so we threw outside. So my parents would freeze essentially for two hours every other weekend.
Speaker 2:And I really fell in love with track my senior year. So Fredonia, for what it's worth, right, one of the best track teams ever in the SUNYAC Conference won like 80 championships out of 88 in a row, or possibly right from 76 to 2000. And that's why I went to Fredonia is because I wanted to be on those next teams right, like I wasn't a great thrower in high school like 150 feet in the discus, like 45 in the shot put, and um. But when I, when I visited in April of 2000, I saw all these guys right, danny Lou Paganello, trevor sullivan, like I I thought to myself I'm going to be this next great fredonia thrower at 6185 pounds, right, um, so I I wasn't equipped for it, but I didn't know I wasn't equipped for it.
Speaker 2:I think that that's important, uh, as as we go on. Um, so I had a decent, you know like, uh, collegiate career. I won one SUNYAC championship in 04 in the hammer and I didn't think I was done yet. Right, we had a couple of coaching changes, like stuff was just crazy and I talk about that in the book when it comes out but I didn't think I was done, so I didn't know any better. So I reached out to Derek Witsky, who was the former Canadian. Well, he's a former Canadian record holder in the hammer.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Derek Witsky.
Speaker 2:Yes, derek Witsky, and I found his email address on the old gasheadorg website that he ran Right and I said hey, I just graduated from college, I'm a 160 foot hammer thrower, I want to join ashland elite you're adorable and basically, at the time they they were prepping for the olympics.
Speaker 2:Right, ag was there, he threw at the olympics. Uh, joe and derrick woodsky were training there. Crystal smith was training there, like all all these super humans that I thought were like, oh my gosh, like I can't believe it, I wanted to go train with them. So. So Derek politely emailed back and said well, you know, judd only takes people that have the A standard, which I think at the time, may have been like 78 meters, so 30 meters farther than I threw in college, but I wasn't. But I wasn't done with it, so I could.
Speaker 2:I continued throwing through um 2011. Like, I always wanted to to qualify for us indoor nationals, senior nationals, and I never got there. Um, I threw 60 feet once at Kent state, uh, which was kind of cool, but, um, I the the throwing bug. I just think that I missed it a little bit as far as, like, actually achieving my potential and I'm going to talk about why in a second. But while I was, while I was doing all that training, I was coaching at Fredonia as well. While I was doing all that training, I was coaching at Fredonia as well, right, so I was a horrible coach the two seasons that I coached at Fredonia, 0405 and 0506. But I learned. I learned what not to do if I ever got another opportunity to coach.
Speaker 2:So, fast forward to 2012,. I emailed Nazareth, nazareth colleges coach James Goss. I emailed Nazareth uh, nazareth colleges coach James Goss, and I said, hey, listen, you know, my wife and I just moved back to town. You don't have a throwing coach. I'd like to volunteer.
Speaker 2:Um, I volunteered for, or I coached there for a few years. Uh, got lucky, I think, with one athlete, um, who had a relatively successful career, and I realized at that point that like there's more to coaching than just hanging and banging and, like bro science, like it just didn't work like that. And what the last essentially seven years of my coaching career have been about is how to get the athlete who doesn't believe that they can get there there, and I think that's that's the most fun for me now, even coaching at Alfred State, like we have kids that shouldn't be on the track team and they end up competing really well. Uh, they score at conference championships and and that's more rewarding for me now than the old Fredonia days where I just thought everybody wanted to throw far but they didn't? I just had a horrible approach to working with college athletes then than I do now, 20 years later.
Speaker 3:Charles, let me jump in here real quick. I have one question out of ignorance and then a question to sort of jump into a little bit.
Speaker 2:At one point.
Speaker 3:You mentioned that you know you wanted to get on to something called the Ashland Elite.
Speaker 2:Ashland Elite. Yeah, what is?
Speaker 3:that I mean you know to me throwing, I mean I knew what the hammer throws, and stuff like that. To me it was high school shot, put and discus Right. So for those of us that don't know, you tell us what ashland elite is, please, yeah.
Speaker 2:So ashland elite was. So ashland uh university in ashland, ohio, uh, was coached by judd logan. So he, judd, was a four-time olympian in the hammer, um 84, 88, 92 in 2000, and then he he made another run in. So, in between the 2000 season and the 2004 season, what Ashland University did basically is take post-collegiate throwers, so college athletes that have already graduated, house them in a house in Ashland that John and I have been to quite a a few times, um, and essentially paid for their health insurance, uh, gave them a meal plan. Basically, they were treated like professional athletes Um, they had a house, they had insurance and, um, they were fed.
Speaker 2:So it's a, it's a, it's a very targeted Olympic training center basically right, it's basically in in the middle of nowhere in Ohio, right?
Speaker 2:And Judd was the catalyst for this. I would argue that Judd's probably the best American throwing coach ever and he had a way of taking athletes that maybe had a little bit left in the tank and getting them to believe that they could take it to the next level, right. So one of the first athletes that Judd took to the Olympics from the National Elite was AG Kruger. So AG Kruger graduated from college I don't know if it was North or South Dakota he was a Division II National champion, like 225 feet, and essentially Judd, as the story goes, said you can come to Ashland, I'll coach you, but you got to figure out your house and you got to figure out other things before we put you on on the club.
Speaker 2:So AG, from 2002 to 04, basically put what John like. He almost went to 80 meters, like you know, almost 50 feet distance in the hammer and he made the Olympic team in 04, right on, basically like a handshake and an opportunity. So that's what Judd, that's what Ashland Elite was opportunity to continue pursuing their passions while being coached essentially by, you know, the best throwing coach you know in the US at the time.
Speaker 1:And that's why we've asked you to be on the podcast today, because your story is intertwined with so many key things that have nothing to do with hammer throwing or your age or your desire, because I can tell you this straight up that I am, I, I have and I hate to say this and I don't hate to say this I have a world record in arm lifting and a silver medal at world championships and a couple of national championships in master's track, and all that.
Speaker 1:And it's just because you did for me what judd did for ag, which you know. You, you thought you lost the fire for throwing, but I think you gained the fire to inspire, don't forget don't ever forget. Oh that come from behind monumental log lifting oh, I did beat scott in the log press too. Yes, there is that jackass. And sc Scott is the silver medalist at the Masters Strongman Nationals, so I got that going. No, and I'll joke an aside, charles, your strength, your strength. I mean I'm sorry you never made the Olympics.
Speaker 2:Excuse me. Well, they only take three, I guess, but your strength is.
Speaker 1:You are a master. I don't even know what the right word is. The first thing that comes to mind is manipulator, but that's in a the wrong sense of the word. You just you have. You have the best. You have a great way to tease the best out of people, not just, not just athletic athletically, which leads me into a question like a mad scientist, yeah here's a.
Speaker 1:here's a question for the group. Yeah, as a master's athlete, I have left college. I am out of rigid formulaic sport. Why should I have a coach? Why should I consider a coach? What would a coach do for me?
Speaker 2:So that's a great question and this is what I was talking to my friend Aaron about the other day. So this past weekend I competed in an Olympic distance Ironman race here in Canandaigua, new York, right. So essentially an Olympic distance or intermediate triathlon is a 0.9 mile swim, 24 mile bike ride, 24 mile bike ride and a um 6.2 mile run as fast as you can, uh, without like taking a break, right and what? Uh I, I finished, uh dead last and um, my, my age group, I was the last male that that crossed the finish line and um.
Speaker 2:But as I'm watching the award ceremony going on, but as I'm watching the award ceremony going on, all of these people in the I competed in the 40-44 age group 40-44, 45-49, all the way up to the 70-year-olds they had somebody there with them, right, most of them had like a coach, like a true like triathlon coach, which never invested in yet I'm going to talk about that Um, but they had somebody there with them, right, the winners all had like a spouse or there was just somebody there to support them along this journey. So for me, as as a master's athlete or as a um, a coach, I guess of of college kids, but um post post-collegiate. I think there's two things that come into play. If I use myself as an example. I'm not built as a triathlete. I'm 6'1". I competed at about 265 pounds.
Speaker 1:Do they have a Clydesdale division?
Speaker 2:They do. I finished fourth out of four in the Clydesdale division.
Speaker 1:Scott, it's a real thing. I'm not, I'm an ass sometimes, I'm not being an ass. That that's an actual thing.
Speaker 2:Oh, put that one on the calendar so for uh, so for men, the clydesdale is over 280 or, I'm sorry, 230 and then they actually have clydesdale plus, oh yeah yep, um, and then they have something similar for women too, I think they, I think it's called the FINA, and it's like one 80, one 60, somewhere around there. Yeah, um, and if they think you're close, you have a scale like in a power lifting meet.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:They, basically you weigh in. So so for me at this point in my life, at 42, right, a single dad, four boys I can't commit financially to hiring a triathlon coach because the the juice is not going to be worth the squeeze, right? I don't know if that's a good analogy for this, but for me I couldn't justify that with everything else that I have going on in my life. However, for the others that were there and the side conversations that I had, winning these local meets and competing well at these local meets is a catalyst for invitations to like half Ironman distances. Then you can qualify for Ironman US Nationals, half Ironman World Championships and things. So you kind of have to be good to get to like the next step. For me, I, I just I couldn't justify doing that.
Speaker 2:Now, if I was going to end the same conversation that I had with Aaron, if I was going to compete in power lifting again, then I might think about it. Right, like I know how to train when I'm 26 and I'm indestructible and I don't have screws holding my pec tendon in place, right, like so I would. I would contact somebody to say, hey, listen, have you, have you coached anybody that's had these types of injuries. Like, is it realistic for me to try and get on the platform at US like USAPL nationals form at us, like us apl nationals? So I I think your question is how, how much are you willing to extend yourself in order to achieve whatever goal you want to achieve, right? So if you just want to do like you do, the arm lifting thing, john, right, like I'm not as familiar with that yep so, so you're really good at it.
Speaker 2:Thanks, um, have so at this point in your life because you're 10 years older than me. Why would you not want to invest in that? Is it because of the sports that we compete in? Because it's not as lucrative? You train and I joke with the college kids all the time. We train all season to take three throws, hopefully six throws, at a conference championship to possibly earn a medal the size of our thumbnail. Yep, right. So as a college athlete, it's like, okay, like you're d3, you're interested, you're on the team, but after that there has to be a little bit more to it. Like, do I, do I really want to be this great? Do I really want to commit 15 hours to triathlon training for a chance to to make um, uh, you know, an amy to qualify for for us nationals type thing?
Speaker 1:well, so I think that's young pad one, the uh the student has now become the master and I would. I will tell you no and cause Scott and I did a podcast episode essentially on this. Um, that hasn't come out yet, but your priorities will shift, but your priorities will still serve you. You're not going to go to the Olympics but you're going to stay healthy. You're going to build a community. I mean, you were talking about talking to other athletes, excuse me, and you sort of accidentally ran into it with talking about Judd and those guys.
Speaker 1:We got invited to a lot of things we probably shouldn't have been invited to because we were kind and respectful and cared and tried and all of that Right athlete. And as your kids age up and you get that more time, you find that I mean, being an old man is can be a lonely job if you don't have a little bit of a community around you and a couple of guys that you know you train with become, you know, you know, brothers in blood for sure. So I, like I said, I think your priorities shift from winning that thumb size medal to right. It's a sunny day and I can still move my body let me jump in here yeah yeah, please.
Speaker 3:Yeah, one of the things that I sort of pulled out of what you were saying and please correct me if I'm wrong in essence, what a coach's true job is to help tease out of their athlete where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are, where their weaknesses are, and then sort of how to as John used the word earlier manipulate them to become a better version of themselves. So that leads me to the idea of okay, so you can look at me as an athlete, you can look at John as an athlete or any of your college athletes who are significantly younger than us, by like more than half, and say to them okay, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. You can see the physical. Where does the mental side of it? Where does that coach athlete relationship fall into this?
Speaker 2:So I think. So that's a great question and I'm glad you asked, so, I think, with my college athletes. I'll use Luis Rivera as an example. So Luis, so essentially, the book the Throwing Circle is about his and mine relationship as we kind of grew up together at Nazareth College, right, so I hadn't coached in a long time. Luis was essentially discovered in cafeteria there. He never competed in track and field, he played football, but he just happened to be in the right place at the right time, I suppose. And I knew what I did at Fredonia was wrong. Right, I pushed the athletes in a certain direction that they didn't want to be pushed. They all didn't want to be great.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Tim Miller.
Speaker 2:Tim Miller, nick Lord, jen Galvin. Like this group of kids that I coached, I'm thankful that they all turned out okay. Right, they're teachers, they're administrators. I'm thankful that they all turned out okay, right, they're teachers, they're administrators. But I was more consumed with I want them to throw far, so I look good as a coach. And that sounds so silly to say out loud, because Division III, fredonia I was a GA and I was concerned that I was going to be let go from my job if the kids didn't throw far so fast. Forward to Naz, I had kids that never threw before Lewis never threw, brandon, he was okay, and then Jess thought she was a sprinter and a thrower. So basically I started from scratch and just looked at them as people rather than okay, how far can we throw, so I look good, so I have a chance to be like a Division I coach someday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and looking back, be all American right, like we were good, we weren't great and that, but you also have to admit that it doesn't seem like that was the goal, because, I mean, you and I were both coached by probably one of the greatest D3 track coaches ever, jim Ulrich.
Speaker 2:Right, that's right.
Speaker 1:I'd run through fire for him and I wasn't all American and all the people you mentioned. Your athletes are still great friends of yours, still look at you as a mentor. Again, I think the accidental lesson of sport is woven through all of this.
Speaker 2:And I think, like looking back with Louis Brandon myself, that first group at NAS we weren't friends necessarily, but I just I wanted them to stay in school, right, like I wanted them to have a uh, an enjoyable, pleasurable experience at nas b3. It was like the third year of the, the track team's inception. So, um, I was like, okay, let's just try and make it fun for them. If they stick around, look, maybe something will click and then maybe they'll throw far at some point. So with Lewis, he was academically inaudible. His fall semester he was registered for 14 classes was taking a science class Coach, I'm not doing well, I need to drop it so I could take a one credit course. I was like, listen, you need to make sure your advisor is going to take care of you and get you into that one credit course. She will, she will, she will. Next day he comes to practice, coach, I have 11 credits. I was like I'm sorry, man, like you can't practice. And this was like the third day that I knew him and I remember, and I remember sending him an email later that night saying, okay, listen, like these are the training workouts, this is what we're going to do in the weight room. You could still do all that, but you just can't practice with us.
Speaker 2:And I remember um, you know, thinking to myself I'm never going to see this kid again Like he. He is going to see this kid again like he. He there, he has no ties to track. I would text him how's it going, how's the semester? Try and keep him engaged in what was going on with the kids. Um had a conversation with his dad at school one day. His dad was a school resource officer in the school that I was teaching um and essentially his dad said um, you know you're his coach. I said, yeah, his dad didn't know that he was ineligible. And he you know Mr Rivera said please take care of my son. He's the first person in our family to go to college. He was valedictorian at one of the city school district high schools in Rochester and he had like a, you know, 1.8 GPA at at midterm or not even. Yeah, like midterms, yeah, the beginning of october. So I thought I already messed up his whole trajectory, right.
Speaker 2:So he comes back in january and I'm like, okay, like you kind of missed a little bit, we're gonna start from scratch. You might throw early car, but I don't care, let's just try and put the pieces together. And he had a decent freshman season, like they all did. They scored points at the Empire 8 Conference, the former state conference. Right, john, that you competed at that. I think you won Yep, maybe a state championship in the shot put.
Speaker 1:Yep, thank you.
Speaker 2:You're very welcome.
Speaker 1:Oh, please don't keep feeding his ego.
Speaker 2:Was it 87 or 88?
Speaker 1:Oh see, 89?. One of those it was, how's that? Let's just go with it was 89. 89.
Speaker 2:89. But what you threw at that meet would still score in the top eight at that meet, right, of course, of course, but no, of course.
Speaker 1:No, but honestly, there are sports that have evolved and I think the throws are one of them. I mean, I did, I won a state championship. I would maybe not make finals, but the strength of that came off of great coaching by Coach Ulrich.
Speaker 3:So I guess you've hidden a couple of really key points here that we touch on in some of the podcasts we've already done. You talk about the idea of relationships between athletes themselves and athletes and coaches. You talk about right sort of the mental game and the part that it plays in it, and you really hit on it, and this means a lot, because john and I have these conversations off off site and you know we're working out about the role of family in athletics. So so I guess the question that needs to be asked next is what are the qualities that I should be looking for? If I'm looking for a coach and I've got a phenomenal coach, so shout out to Tony. But if you know one of the folks that, uh, listens to us, if they're looking for a coach as a master's athlete, what are the things you think they should be looking for in a coach?
Speaker 2:So I um, so I would, I would ask um for myself. So if I'm using myself as a triathlete, I would reach out and ask, like what's your six? Like not success? I take that back. What are your experiences working with somebody my age I'm 42 who has four kids, who is essentially navigating it on their own? I would want to know that first, just because if this person has experience with that, we're going to be able to bond and they're going to understand, empathize, all of these things about my life. So if I can't make a swim workout at six in the morning because I was up all night with the three-year-old, like they would understand. So essentially, I would look for that.
Speaker 2:I would um ask how other athletes of my like level have competed, cause if I'm going to reach out to a coach, I do, I want to be successful, right, like I want it to be worthwhile for myself, um, and for the coach. So I'd want to know, like, how other athletes have competed in the past. If they're local like to me, like Rochester, new York, there's like three triathlon clubs that are equipped with phenomenal coaches, right? So they're very experienced, they're very knowledgeable. So they're very experienced, they're very knowledgeable. There's certifications in USA. Triathlon, that's specific to age groups, which I didn't know until Sunday. So there's people that get trained on how to coach people my age Right. So I'd want to know what, what those types of experiences are, and then I'd want to watch them in action. And triathlon is kind of tough right, like you swim in a lake for a mile, so that takes like 30 minutes, and then you you run along the beach as fast as you can to put on shoes and get on a bike and then disappear for two hours on a bike ride and then you come back and you run a 10k right for this race. So there isn't a lot of interaction with the coach. So I would, I would.
Speaker 2:For me, there would have to be a certain level of buy-in of do I trust this person to help me get where I want to go? And that's, that's a. That's a tangible or intangible, I guess the way, depending on how you look at it, but I really haven't tried to figure out yet, right, is it like, uh, the chicken, the egg, right, you put the cart before the horse? All of these different things of? Does the relationship work because the coach trusts the athlete or the athlete trusts the coach or is it because the, the coach, is able to pull something out of the athlete? And there's something that judd always talked about um, out of the athlete. And there's something that Judd always talked about I wrote about I think there's like four chapters of it. He had this term called light giver. Right, and I apologize if I start crying, because I think this is really important.
Speaker 2:It is important it is, judd's thing was a coach's job, and I believe this wholeheartedly is to illuminate a path for your athlete brighter than they can illuminate for themselves. And, judd, god bless you. Like I hope I do you justice with with how I phrased that and I, that would be the most important thing for me. Like is this, does this person believe in me? Like, are they? Are they really think that I could be successful? Like, do they really think we can, you know, uh, compete in a half Ironman distance and finish in like seven hours right or eight hours or whatever the goal would be, and at the college level, even at the post-collegiate level? I don't know, I don't know if a lot of athletes have that and um, at this race this weekend, everybody had somebody, even if it's a spouse or significant other, that believes in them. I think that's the conduit that's going to get that athlete to the next level.
Speaker 2:Look, and I'm like doing all those hand gestures here, I'm outside right now, like you guys can see me, um, but like I, I think that that's so important that that person has to believe in the athlete. Right, like they have to get the athlete to think that, like John said, coach Ulrich, would he he had? He has hundreds of athletes that would still run through a wall for him, right, and uh, I think that like that's missing in masters, like if I was to find that person, like I would be all in on that Because if they believe enough in me to, yes, I'm going to get you there. And then there's incremental gains and there's small wins along the way and there's some successes. I'll do whatever that coach says. But those things take time and and college athletes, they, you know. Four years seems like a long time but it's not.
Speaker 1:Right, so here, welcome. Welcome to old age. Let me hand you the guidebook on being a master's athlete. Um, I do not have a coach. Scott has an incredible strongman coach. I do not have a coach, but what I do have.
Speaker 2:Scott has an incredible strongman coach.
Speaker 1:I do not have a coach, but what I do have, I have the guy sitting across the table from me who keeps me honest. I have you, who I can call. I have Tim Miller, who motivates me out of the blue. I have athletes that I used to compete with that call me up and tell me they're so amazed that I'm still getting after it. I have athletes that stopped a long time ago because injury and still get after it. It it shifts from the person to the community. Um, you will find I mean you've built the resources it. It can't lie with one person for most people. If you're just let's call you a super recreational athlete, right, you're not just doing it to do it, you're doing it because you care and you want to succeed and you want to improve. But you know you don't have grand designs on really being a quote. Unquote pro.
Speaker 3:But, john, I don't want to gloss over what Charles said, and I'm sorry to interrupt you here. You something, um, just a couple minutes ago, that a good coach, you know, somebody that you trust, somebody that you respect, can illuminate the path that you might not see yourself. That is a phenomenally powerful statement because you know, we, john and I, have talked many times about the idea that you made a decision to get off the couch. Metaphorically. Get off the couch, do your thing. We only know what we know and even with the internet, thanks Al Gore to…. Shout out to Al Gore. Shout out to Al Gore for creating the internet.
Speaker 3:Even with the internet and all the resources that are there very positive resources. They're geared towards you as an individual. You get a coach, the right coach. Like I said, I've got a phenomenal one. John has talked about you, you know, almost since we met what five years ago or whatever it is, and you find that person that lights that path for you that you can't see because, let's think about it, you're, you're in it, so you're blinded to it. I, I just I didn't want to go past that without again giving that statement credence, because that is an incredibly powerful statement I love that and I think, and I think, and I think, for the coaches too like getting back to lewis.
Speaker 2:So we fast forward a few years. Um, his sophomore year, he's okay. He throws a weight uh, 1630, something like 53 feet. Um throws a hammer 50 meters and I think we're onto something. Um, I leave Naz unceremoniously. Um, we had another child, my wife and I, and it was just trying to find the balance of. Well, I didn't have the balance. That's why I didn't coach Lewis's junior year. Um, he asked me to come back. His senior year long story, maybe the third or fourth podcast for you guys. But uh, um, and, and it worked because he, he believed in it Right and it because he believed in it right. And maybe it could have been somebody else and he could have been as successful.
Speaker 2:But when we were sitting at nationals in Iowa in March of 2016, the day after he won the 35-pound weight throw national championship at the time he was six-time D3, just the the rocket was strapped to his back for potential. I said to him you know, I think, I think you need to think about next year or the following year. You might want to reach out to judd and see if judd would coach you. And lewis looked at me and he's like coach, but you're my coach. And I was like, no, no, I understand, I was like, but even if I get you to, you know, you know 74 feet, 75 feet in the weight, like if you really want to get to the Olympics, like which was the plan. Like he was born in Puerto Rico. Like we reached out to Puerto Rico governing body, like he's a Puerto Rican national champ or national record holder in the weight, second in the hammer all time. And I knew enough about myself that I can't coach college kids and try and have them be successful. Try and have three kids at home and try and help him get where he wants to go and um it. It took a lot for me to to get to that point and I think that's another important aspect of this. Like my kids, they still call me as a resource for, for everything. Right, coach, I'm in this relationship. Coach, I need help with this coach. I need help with that sure um, and with lewis it was more of.
Speaker 2:I saw that he could be much better than he was in college. So eventually there was a situation where he and Judd were at the same meet and, and Lewis said hey, you know what do you think if I come out here? And, just like AG's handshake, judd said sure you know, come on out, I'll, I'll take you. And um, I couldn't have been happier for him because it was like that Olympic moment, right, like you watch the Olympic trials and they have all these backstories which are so interesting. And you know, he, he left Rochester, he didn't have an apartment, he didn't have a job, he just graduated from college and he started trying, started training with the best coach in the world and he, he scored in the top five at U Ss indoor nationals a couple years in a row.
Speaker 2:You know, 70 meter hammer thrower, like we were on the cusp. And I say we like I'm part of this, right, um, and and covid happened and and that's like we'll never know type of thing, yeah, but I, I think, I think, I think coaches also need to need to be aware that that if they think that they have a limitation, they shouldn't try and BS the athlete. Right, like Lewis was 23, he was 24, right, like I knew I couldn't get him to 70 meters in the hammer One. I had never taken anybody to 70 meters in the hammer, so why not have him work with somebody who's coached like 100 people people over that distance right To to get him where where he needs to go?
Speaker 2:And I think that's why our relationship works so well and it still does, because I think that's the best interest of the kids. Right, like, if you can do it, I'm going to try and find a resource that will help me get you there, especially in college. But for the ones after the fact, jen Galvin at Fredonia, she graduated in in 05 and uh, I said, jen, why don't you go to grad school at Ashland and Judd will coach you and see if you could be a GA. He won't do that. So we, we sent the emails. She got accepted to grad school and she ended up going to two indoor national competitions also and she blossomed in like a 60.
Speaker 2:She almost qualified for us outdoor nationals like 66, 67 meter hammer thrower back then, uh, 05 06 07 and um and I think that's really cool, like the, the, the connections that we have as coaches, right to try and give our kids that athlete or that opportunity. It doesn't just start and end with us Like it should. We should try, and, you know, hand off the athlete to somebody else if they're willing to take them, to get them where they want to go. So as the continuation of you know, that light giver concept.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know. So there's two things you said and I want to. I want to like wind way back to one that you glossed over and um, but I do want to. I do want to come back to the whole. I mean you had the notebook moment with lewis where you let him go, but I mean it was the biggest, it was the biggest party. Yeah, right but biggest party, yeah Right, but I've never seen that night, right, but here's the thing.
Speaker 1:Does there come a, does there come a moment? And then I'm framing this for masters athletes. I am a masters athlete. I go to, I'm a runner, I'm a weekend runner. I go to my local running store, cause they have a runners group, right. I go to that coach and I say, hey, you know, I just want to shave some time off my 5K. And he's like, okay, we'll do this and this and this and we meet on these days and that doesn't work for you, do you?
Speaker 1:What do you think about breaking up with a coach or choosing a different coach? Like when do you cause? I mean I've accidentally been all in with anybody like that and I've never had, like a bad relationship. But like I do want to get rid of Scott some days. I mean it's usually when he's pushing me too hard, but that's a different podcast. I have that effect on them. But honestly though, I mean mean. Honestly though I mean a lot of, a lot of our listeners are recreational athletes. You know they're, they're, they're looking to derive value, sort of. I don't want to say as quickly as possible, but you know, as quickly as possible, what do you think about?
Speaker 2:if it's not a good fit I think if it's not a good fit, I think both. Well for it to not be a good fit, I think, um, maybe initially the conversation about how it could be a good fit, and that happened. So, um, anytime, anytime, I work with athletes that that reach out for, like mindset training, or don't like the post collegiate track or high school athletes. Those are my favorite right Cause, like oh my gosh, I want to get school athletes. Those are my favorite right Because, like oh my gosh, I want to get a scholarship in college. Well, all right, let's, let's go back a little bit of like. Why, essentially like? Why is it important to you, right? So, um, I would talk about expectations, right?
Speaker 2:So, if, if, if I'm going to reach out to the triathlon coach, I'd say you know, I just completed this race this year in four hours and 15 minutes.
Speaker 2:I blew my back tire at mile six. It took me a lot longer. My goal next year is to complete the race in three hours and 30 minutes, which really isn't unheard of when you run 14 minute miles for 10K. Okay, right, like it only takes, you know, if you shave off two minutes, you're still slow, or, but that's, or, but that's still, 24 minutes or 12 minutes that you're taking off, so I think it would have to be an expectations thing, right? So if, if the coaching packages that I see online for training are usually like three, six month blocks, right so, in three months or six months, how much can you realistically get better, right so? So, running for me, I think coaches they would be like, oh my gosh, this guy's gonna shave like a minute off his 10k time or off the mile per 10k and, um, he's gonna be hooked because I am pumping with zero like literally the couch athlete when it comes to that right if, if I'm going to do power lifting, like okay, so I've had some success there.
Speaker 2:I don't think I'm going to squat six or seven hundred pounds again, but like could we get to something reasonable that could get me on the platform? And then it would be like a time thing, right? So if the expectation is within a year, let's say because I don't think that's a long time for masters athletes like a year to get on the platform.
Speaker 1:Depends on how old you are.
Speaker 2:Depends on how old you are, right. So for me well, for me 42, this is perfect, right? I'm getting ready to age up a little bit in a couple of years, so I would be the younger person in the older group, had that conversation about expectations and then talk about, like what the lifestyle is right. So right if you're, if, if you've never been married and you're 53 and you have tons of money, like okay, like maybe I would want to get better quicker.
Speaker 3:Who is that person?
Speaker 1:yeah, quick aside, that doesn't exist. What you wanted to say was if you're 53 and you have two kids and you're on your second wife and you have a pot belly and you hate your job, and yeah, right, there you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, no, but um no, I know, but like, I think that's where I think that's where it would come down to it. Yeah, and if for the coach and the athlete, for whatever reason, if they don't hit it off or they're not able to communicate effectively with each other or there's that little bit of like lack of trust that I think it would be okay to call it right, like if after three months or six months, it's like hey, listen, I, you know, my bench presses hasn't gone up anywhere. Or, um, you know, I my my running time. Like I can't shave these seconds off. Um, if I was a coach, I'd say, okay, like so. So what are you doing? Like, what else is going on in your life? Because at this age there's a lot of stressors that we don't have when we're 25 or whatever 26. Um, does that? Is that playing a role into it? Like, is that second wife, like you know, thinking about getting her third husband?
Speaker 1:is yes, yes.
Speaker 2:The answer always is yes yeah, it's always yes, right, do you have? Is there another child on the way? Are you 50 and you have a two-year-old, right, like so I? I think there's a lot of factors that play a play a role into it. Okay, honesty, I think, would be the most important, like if, if the athlete doesn't think that it's working, then I think they should feel free to hey, you know what this is working. I don't want to be coached by you, and I think that would be okay, I think, for the coach. If they don't feel like that the athlete is putting in what they think they should.
Speaker 2:I think any coach worth their salt would let the athlete go rather than just like keep them for the money, right, actually go. Whether, rather than just like people for the money, right, and I'm sure there's people like that uh, like these cookie cutter programs of how you're gonna run a 5k faster, how you're gonna, you know, lift the log heavier, like I wouldn't even know where to start. But I think that's the other thing too, though, is you find the person that that you think is going to be the best like fit for you, right? So, john, if I wanted to do what you guys do, I well, I will reach out to you guys first and then say, okay, like, who, like, who, like, what kind of equipment do I need? Like, how much training, like time do I need? What is this going to entail? And and try and figure it out from there. Yeah, and you you.
Speaker 1:You said a good thing about um breaking up with a coach, where I think any coach worth his salt to to coin your phrase is uh, yeah, is going to understand that it's not a fit, for any myriad of reasons, from a it's not working to be you know, I hate to use modern vernacular, but it's just not my vibe. You know, I don't want. I don't want the coach that screams at me. If you're a screamer, right, I don't want the coach that hugs me.
Speaker 1:If you're an anti-hugger, I don't want a bald coach if you're scott you know, it's a lot I'm gonna be a little more sentimental here because John is
Speaker 3:making way too much fun of me and smiling this whole time, you know. So, to go back to what you said before, it's not just illuminating a path, it's illuminating the path for you, the path. I know that, whereas some of the exercises might be the same for some of the other guys, that he works with the idea that he goes and sort of tailors those processes for me or for his other athletes. So again, it goes back to it's the right path for you, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, wait, before you start, I have a quick question and I don't think you know the answer of it, but I'm deeply interested in the answer. You talked about triathlon coaches and you mentioned that there's age certifications for triathlon coaches.
Speaker 2:There are yes.
Speaker 1:Do you know anything about the difference between what they need to know for a 20-year-old versus what they need to know for a 42-year-old? Clydesdale.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's volume, volume and basically like, uh, human physiology, right. So so, um, uh, uh, a master's athlete and triathlon day star masters is considered 40. So, um, how do you, how do you train a 40 year old who has, let's say, five hours a week to train for a sprint race? So sprint race is essentially half of what an intermediate or olympic distance race is. Okay, half a mile swim, 12 or 13 mile bike ride and a 5k, right. So, um, I did a couple of those in uh 18, 2018, 2019 and I was able to finish in like an hour and a half, which I that that was pretty good, like I won my age group and the Clyde and Del for that, so I thought that that was cool. Um, that's that's really.
Speaker 2:The biggest difference is how to put together a plan for somebody who literally has maybe five hours a week to train, where, if you're working with the mid-20s, early 30s, that has a job, like, say, a corporate job, but they're not married, they don't have kids and essentially they have 20 hours to train if they wanted, like, you can have higher volume, you can have longer workouts, you can train more and harder.
Speaker 2:Where, for us, like I might, might not, I wouldn't be able to handle 15 hours of triathlon training like today, maybe in like six months, like I could build up to it, um, and that's what a lot of the training is. But getting back to the uh, the coaching piece, um, so my brother is a professor at arizona state and he um quality of life, um and lifespan development for people like 70, 75 and older, plus, and he does all these different studies and there's one that he did in particular about um, quality of life and happiness, and one of the studies, one of the findings, this was in 2022. I can't. I could send you the link to the article if it's that important okay, but essentially one of the I will.
Speaker 2:So one of one of the things that they found with people and that were still able to live on their own, you know, in their mid-80s and things, was that they still wanted to do things like that, they were still physically active. In regards to gardening, too. I mean it sounds kind of silly but an 85 year old like gardening, like that's probably high volume, intense workout, right, if you're going to bend over, if you're going to pick things up, put things down, whatever, and and it's the want to write that those people want to still be physically active at that point in their lives. And that's the one thing that I don't think I've been able to crack the code on is heart Like how can I get a college athlete to want to do something? And I think it's no right and I know the answer.
Speaker 1:I know the answer. I know the answer I do. I know the answer because this is the transition from a collegiate athlete to a master's athlete. It's a community right. Um, those, those 85 year old gardeners, have two other friends, that gardeners, and they share seeds and planting stories and they meet at the senior center and give each other uh like rhododendrons right, you, charles, and I hate to do this to you because we're heading towards an hour- oh yeah, no, that's fine One of the things that we said when we started.
Speaker 3:You've hit on so many different important things in this sort of relationship and the growth of a coach and an athlete. I know I speak for John when I say this. We are going to ask you to come back for another one because there's so many things we want to talk about. Amen, you know, mental training, nutrition, that sort of the duality of the relationship that happens between the coach and the athlete when it comes to communication and whatnot. But the reason that I'm sort of cutting you is because one of the biggest things we wanted to do was, you know, we want to hear about your book. I mean, you know, john shared just the introduction with me and I want, I want to know a little bit more about it. You know, and we want to give you an opportunity to talk about it for the next couple of minutes and, you know, get it out there. I know it's coming up pretty soon, from what I understand, but we want to give our, our audience, a chance to chance to learn a little bit.
Speaker 2:It is. So I appreciate that. So it's called the throwing circle. A couple of Decembers ago I essentially sat down over Christmas break and I typed out the Lewis and I's freshman year from my old training journals. So I handwrite notes still still to this day. I still have my journals from Fredonia when I coached in 04, 05.
Speaker 2:And I always told Lewis like dude, you should write a book about this stuff. Like you never threw in four years, you were national champion, one of the best D3 throwers ever. Like you could probably get paid to travel around the country and talk about your experiences. No, coach, I don't have time for that, whatever. So I was like so I'll do it. So initially I just wrote his freshman year. It was like 65 pages and I shipped it around to a couple publishing companies and the last one that I sent it to said this is interesting, but we want the whole story. So I added another 200 pages basically, and I talked about my experiences of when I started coaching in 04-05 through my time at Nazareth College with Lewis, and I think it's really important to share. I mean, really it's more for for people to see that you can accomplish. You really can accomplish whatever you want if you have the right ingredients to the recipe right. So for Lewis and I, the recipe was how are we going to get a national championship? Because that's why we came back together his senior year.
Speaker 2:So in the book I talk a lot about my research with coach-athlete relationships rather excuse me why it's important for coaches to have a firm philosophy of what they believe in, what their values are, how their values dictate their training, how they communicate with their athletes, how much autonomy do they give their athletes when it comes to training and lifting and all those things. And it culminates with and I don't mind sharing it here because the book might be out by the time this podcast comes out I inducted Lewis under the Hall of Fame at NASA in 2022. And, besides my kids being born, I think that's the proudest moment of my life because he should not have been there. All the things that we went through the girls, the dating relationships that were just like derailing his career, going to class, not going to class, like we grew up together, basically and it talks about how I was able to kind of illuminate, like we had bright spots, but then there were also like times where things didn't work too well, and I think it's important for people to see that even when there is a success, you don't see everything else behind the scenes right of success. You don't see everything else behind the scenes right?
Speaker 2:The conversations about dating and his family and going to class and registering for classes and wanting to have a part-time job and working at Wegmans and all these different things that played a role in who he is now is really what the book is about. So I talk about Ashlyn a lot, talk about John Logan a lot, talk about Adrian Wilson a lot. So she's somebody we didn't talk about today, but she was another Ashlyn, the lead thrower, who basically overcame cancer to throw at three Olympic trials. She's probably the most right John, the most decorated female High highland games athlete, I would say quite possibly yes quite possibly right.
Speaker 2:I think she won six or seven in a row um world championships, um, and along the way, I I include, like these little research tips about how coaches can establish a coaching philosophy. Why, why are they coaching in the first place? Right, division three it's not really lucrative for the most part, um, so kids are there because they want to be there. Coaches that are there volunteering for the most part, like why do you want to be there? Um, how do you establish goals with your athletes? How do you communicate with your athletes? What's realistic versus um, not realistic, like reality versus fiction, um, um. Oh my gosh, I could go on and on, but there's yeah, don't spoil.
Speaker 1:Don't spoil the whole book no, no, no.
Speaker 2:I mean there's like 45 different activities that I include for coaches that they can easily incorporate with their athletes, um, and the athletes wouldn't even know that they're right and for and for coaches are in corporate them yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for our listeners who aren't coached, or our masters, I can tell you, if you, if I've seen an advanced copy of the book, and if you take out the word Charles and you take the word out Lewis and you put me and me in there, you can learn an awful lot about yourself if you are a self coach, because a lot of it is just holding a mirror up to some real truths, good and bad, I mean.
Speaker 1:Some of it is you got to have some grace with yourself, right? Some of it is you got to get off the couch and, oh, I thought we're going to make it and stop eating Cheetos. We're never going to get sponsored by.
Speaker 3:Cheetos, cheetos is not liking us, hey Dr.
Speaker 1:Inferno liking us. Hey, dr inferno, we are looking at nearly the top of the hour. Uh, this, hopefully, I believe this episode will come out like november 7th. So when? When does your book come?
Speaker 2:out, do you know so? So I sent final edits like the final edits um last friday. So essentially what I was told is it takes six to eight weeks for production. Okay, so we, so we're looking at um hopefully before Thanksgiving, okay, and the book is going to be uh available on Amazon. Um, we got a partnership with with Barnes and Noble, um Target, costco and uh we're putting together like an eight city Barnes and Noble tour up here in the Northeast. So I'm really excited about that too.
Speaker 1:Keep us informed. We'll put all the links on the uh master's uh athlete survival guide Instagram page, uh, including links to buy the book and to see you wherever you're speaking. I deeply appreciate your time and your existence. Um, we definitely are going to do a part two because I didn't nearly gush enough on you as how much you mean to me and how my journey started with a spark from you. On behalf of Scott I'm John. Who are you? I'm still Scott, and who's this guy on the phone that?
Speaker 1:would be Dr Charles Renard, there you go and for the three of us, everybody have a great day and thanks for listening. Bye. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post it on your social media or leave a review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram at Masters Athlete Survival Guide. Thanks again. Now get off our lawn, you damn kids.