Classroom To Kali: How Martial Arts Built Community and a Champion with Shannon Duval

We welcome Shannon Duvall, a philosophy professor turned martial artist and coach, to explore how community, grit, and simple routines can change a life. From founding a dojang in ten days to competing in Filipino stick fighting, she shows how showing up builds confidence at any age.

• school is people, not a building
• starting martial arts as a parent alongside kids
• parking-lot plan that launched a new dojang
• how Kali works, from armor choices to ring control
• talent vs trainability and learning through feedback
• running, long COVID, and identity shifts
• coaching with care, critique as belief
• belts and stripes as motivation for kids
• Silver Sticks, canes, and practical self-defense
• aging strong through footwork, balance, and community
• turning disappointment into hard work
• confidence as the real outcome of training

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Transcript

Banter And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Fast Athletic Five. Quick sports five minutes for 40. Up at Light. Along with Scott Five. We'll dive into training depths and hacks and inspiring stories from Steve Athlete. Whether you're a weekend warrior or a competitor pro, this podcast is your playbook first take fifth strong emotions. Let's get started. And we're back. And we are back. It took me a minute. Are you sure we're back? No, I'm not sure, but whatever.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

That's not exciting.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

So hi Scott. Hi Scott. Hi John. What's up? We have guests today here in Warstor. Isn't that exciting? I love when we have guests because people are totally tired of hearing you and I talk about how amazing I am.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Well, tired of hearing you talk. And they are so over hearing about your lack of exploits. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

My lack wait, what?

Autistic Kids, Faces, And Pokemon

SPEAKER_01 1:01

All right, John. Let's uh let's get over to somebody who is by far more intelligent than we are. Wow. Today we are lucky to have uh someone who is actually a colleague of mine at the college, Dr. Shannon Duvall. Shannon, how are you? Good, good, good. Shannon's not a doctor to either. No, Shannon is a doctor, and she's gonna be a doctor squared. She's actually going for a second doctor, if I'm correct, right, Shannon? Oh.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

That is that is true. That is true. Gotta get them all.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

No, I open my are you going for a doctor in Pokemon? Because I think that's what Scott has.

unknown 1:38

Oh God.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

I'm not. I'm not. But you know, um, I have I did in my program learn that's something fascinating, uh uh which has kind of a segue.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Okay, so please be here tonight.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Please share it.

SPEAKER_04 1:55

So um I started martial arts as an adult uh on the advice of my kids' pediatrician. Yes, two of my three kids are on the autism spectrum. And uh something interesting I learned about autistic kids is that you know everybody has a place in their brain um for faces, and there's a specific pa place in your brain for your your mother's face, right? That lights up right when you see your mother's face. But if you're autistic, it lights up when you see Pokemon, pokey Pokemon, whatever the plural is of Pokemon.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah, whatever the plural. We'll look we'll look that up for that.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

I'm not kidding. That's that's what that's what turns on that yes, yeah. Which explains so much, you know, about my kids' childhood.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

It really does. I wish I had known. I wish I had known years ago there'd been a lot less rejection uh going around.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

I feel like that explains why I think that there's at least three Pokemon-based stores within ten minutes of me.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Yeah, and they're probably filled up with a uh a lot of kids on the spectrum because um they they're looking for their mom. I mean, I'm completely serious.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Wow. I you know what? Never heard that. I have never heard that.

Teaching Giant Classes And Building Engagement

SPEAKER_02 3:12

That's great. I'm gonna I'm gonna ask this question and I may regret it, but what are your doctorates are in and going to be in?

SPEAKER_04 3:20

So my first one's in philosophy, um, and the one I'm working on now is in psychology.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Oh, okay. I was just afraid it really was Pokemon and I had offended her.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Right. Well, I no, I'm I'm I'm practically uh unoffendable. That's the other thing about growing up with I mean raising autistic kids is yeah, good luck offending me. Well, my kids have said everything out loud that you could imagine.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

But here's the thing. Shannon comes up here quite regularly for work and whatnot because the systems office and her supervisor work out of Orchard Park, New York. Oh. So if you came up here and you offended her, she would whip your ass.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Oh. Let's not ever mention the address of our studio. I feel like there's enough women out there like thinking about burn that guy's house down. Hmm, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

All right, Shannon. Um Tell us a little bit about yourself and you know, sort of your journey.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

And if you own a toga when you got your doctorate, like do they give you that seems like a very toga-centric doctor.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Right. Well well, and that that's funny that you say that.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

It wasn't part of the package.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

No, it wasn't part of the package, but I felt I felt so I taught at Penn State and some of my classes had like two or three hundred, you know, kids in them. So in order to keep their attention, you know, it was necessary to be a a little bit theatrical from time to time. And and the toga was definitely um an attention getter. So I felt like it it was gonna be, you know, h hard to to keep everybody on cash.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I would just wear the toga. I bet. So this this leads me into a question, as having been one of those students in a 300-person classroom. Do you notice all of us in like when we fall asleep or are doodling or oh every single one of you.

Mindset, Community, And Wordle Strategy

SPEAKER_04 5:33

Yeah. I have a I I just this is yeah. No, so here's what I developed this success. I went to a small school my for my undergrad, and I came out of it with this expectation that I was gonna have this relationship with my students, and I get to Penn State and I'm in these huge classes, and I'm like, oh boy. So every day we start at the end of the row, and I ask them a question, some kind of question. Like I it might be what's the last what's the last um piece of nonfiction that you read? And these could stop for the paint of heart. Let me tell you, did you figure out they have no idea what nonfiction is? And it was in my class, right? I mean it was in my class anyway. But I asked 'em some kind of question and they'd pass the paper down the the line, they'd sign their name, answer the question. That was also a means of taking tenants. And then my TAs would get the papers at the end of the line and bring them in a certain order so I knew the name of every person and what seat they were sitting in. Right. And that way I could call their name um and ask them questions or say something about what they had written. And um after a couple of weeks of that, they realized, you know, that I had this expectation that we were going and we were going to have a conversation, they were going to be a part of it. Um, so that worked really well for a class of that size.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah, you know, you remind me of my French teacher. My French teacher would always go around the class and ask for you'd had to say a a verb and use it in a sentence and run. But it but it was the same question every class every week. So basically, uh the only thing I really remember about French is Cherche, which is look for and Cherche La Femme was the phrase, and that was it.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

For girls, that was it. That was it.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

You're starting to get the picture of Jimmy. That was it.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

Okay, we're gonna exploit. Yeah, I got it, I got it, fully got it now. Yeah, no, I um yeah, it was it was it was a good experience. It's just it is a lot about people's expectations, right? If they don't think you expect them to be present and uh engaged, then then they probably aren't going to be. If you feel like they are going to expect that, then uh you would they will be.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Do you get did you get all those like last day of the semester kids like Dr. Duvall? Um uh I I totally meant to turn that paper in, but I didn't because my dog ate it and then uh the postman stole it, and then uh I'm I'm sorry. Uh can I get an A?

Starting Martial Arts With Her Kids

SPEAKER_04 8:09

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, can I get it? I I didn't get I didn't get quite so much of that at Penn State. Um but I I get a lot it the uh the circumstances of the kids that go to to the school where Sky and I teach, like they they're really battling, you know, so like I mean it's it it almost makes me feel um a little bit embarrassed of myself because I thought school was hard when I was in school, you know, but I was not responsible for anybody but myself. Right. And um, you know, our students have families and kids and jobs and parents they take care of and all kinds of stuff like that. And you know, they're serving in the military, and you know, like I I get emails like, I'm sorry, ma'am, we're under heavy shelling. I may not be able to keep my internet connection. I understand you'll deduct late points.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

And I'm like, listen, it's all right, it's totally fine.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah, you're good.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

Stay safe and get it in. No worries, right? No worries at all.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Oh, my college excuses were like, uh, I had to close the bar last night, or I had to watch Ferris Bueller 14 times, or John still uses those excuses. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

You know, oddly enough, like I never really wanted to know. I I just had a like at a policy, you know, I'm like, you know, you and and they didn't have to tell me anything because I really didn't want to be in a position of making judgments about, you know, like is it more important that you obsessively have to watch Ferris Bueller than that somebody else had the flu or their you know fifth grandmother passed.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 9:53

You know, I just like you know, I don't I don't want to be in that position. So they could mi you know, they could miss or be late on three things, and after that, you know, they're really actually not keeping up. So the natural consequence of that is they won't do as well in the class, and that's what happened. But I I never ask them why. No, that's weren't their you know, one of the things they were doing.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

We talk about uh at the college, Shannon, and you know this, I don't know if John has heard this before, where we work, one of the bylines or one of the taglines they have is for every and in life. And I think that sort of hits a lot of what we've talked about in the show throughout the you know six or seven episodes we've had. Life happens. There's nothing to do with change, it's how we sort of deal with it. That's a lot of what we talk about.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Wow, oh that's right. That's the whole podcast about like sports and athleticism and mindset and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Mindset, that's a big one, especially with you know, I like it.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

I I kind of wanted to make it about togas and late homework and stuff, but whatever. Right. Yeah, well, okay. Shiny. All right, before we before before we get into like are you more of a Jean-Claude Van Damme person or I think it's more important. We need to get this little nugget of discussion that we had before the podcast. Shannon, if I were to come to you in a professional capacity and ask you a very important question, how should I start Wordle?

unknown 11:28

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

I I I I'm really um laying out my secrets here.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Train. Train.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

All right, then mouse or louse, mouse or louse, depending on how you feel. Oh, that's chewy.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

You'll get it in four. I'll get it in four. I like it.

School Closure And Founding A New Dojang

SPEAKER_04 11:46

Every time, every single time. Unless that four degrees of separation. Yeah, I just I just developed this series because then you get all of your vowels and all your popular consonants and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Yeah, see I do idea, then I do story, but the problem after those two is that there's still a lot of options. And if you get and if there's anything with double letters, I'm screwed.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Um that's that that's yeah, that's probably true.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Scott, I'm sorry we're having this high-level educational discussion.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

This goes way beyond my capacity. Do you want to go back to one?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Do you want to go back to one of the episodes where we're talking to people who lift rocks? Is that something is that a more comfortable thing for you? Oh lift rock. Yeah, thanks, Scott. We just offended like ten of our friends, by the way. It's rocky. They're like, hey, I lift rocks. Uh Scott, can you uh can you talk talk to your friend Shannon and explain to us uh what you bring today? Because I feel like I derailed this thing from the get-go.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

You derailed it before we even stopped.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

That's that's true.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

All right, Kannon. You and I met each other through work. But then during some of the conversations we've had, I thought that you were going to call it. Tell us a little bit about that. Tell us a little bit about you know the path that's our ledged there. And maybe, you know, were you an athlete when you were in school, college, you know, were you like the typical gym bro that I could bench 600 pounds when I was in fifth grade? That's me. No.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Yeah, I yeah, I wasn't actually. I I was I was total, uh, total nerd. Um in I did play I did play tennis, um and uh wasn't all that good at it, but I I I learned one of the most important lessons, um, which is keep showing up. Right? Just keep showing up. You will learn, you will get better. Um my mother was quite accomplished tennis player, uh, so um you know, it was kind of stressful uh not to be one.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:01

But you learn you learn about you learn about that too. But no, I I really came to the martial arts as I mentioned through my kids and um the pediatrician recommended it, and it was one of those deals where it was like two and in, and I'm like, well, you know, I'm not gonna just sit here like in a chair while the kids are on the floor doing martial arts. So I started training with them and it just turned out I loved it. I absol I I needed to hit and kick things much more than I I I realized.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Um you should see John's face right now. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm glad we did this one remote. Jeez.

Discovering Kali And Competitive Stick Fighting

SPEAKER_04 14:39

I know, but I really um so I trained with the kids and um trained when they trained, to train when they didn't train. Um, you know, I trained several times a day. I started running um to get in shape. I just you know I liked it a lot. I started teaching at the school, and then something happened that happens all too often, unfortunately, in martial arts schools. And um that was a donor of the school. Um left and and without notice and uh closed school. So we got about like two hours notice that this was gonna happen, and uh so the next day, so we're trying to figure out what to do. It's like me and the you know, the other instructors are there like in their early twenties and you know, I'm in my like late twenties and so we um we're like okay, we'll show up at the schools tomorrow with clipboards and we'll get everybody's name and email address because we weren't allowed back into school. The guy locked I mean, we couldn't get our gear, we couldn't get any contact information, um couldn't get anything. So we stand outside the school with some pretty upset parents showing up with kids for class and uniforms, and actually I did not realize how many parents knew the tenants of Taekwondo until that day with the recital, yeah, where's the courtesy, where's the respect, where you know, it's it's it's like they're hitting me hard with it. And I g and I get it though, I get it, I I do. So um our intention was to visit all the schools in the area, find the right place for them to train. Um we had no intention of of starting a school. You see where this is going. Um, but the question that we kept getting asked is like, you know, well, where where's our school gonna be? Where's our new school gonna be? Where's you know, Master Jensen gonna be, our lead instructor, and we're trying to j you know, say like no, that's that's that's not what we're what's happening here. Um and they were said, Okay, yeah, but where's our new school gonna be? So uh we had a serious conversation about it and within ten days we incorporated, we found a space and we held our graduation on time in the new space for free. Um we accepted donations and by the end of that day we had enough to buy mats for the school. Uh so we had mats and um we started classes the next week. We let everybody out of their contracts, nobody at you know I actually got everybody's money back, which was quite a thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Oh, it was I was wondering I was wondering about that.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

Like did people Yeah, no, I I got everybody's m money back. Um that w took took a little bit, but we did. And uh then gears start showing up at the school. Like our students or adult students and parents were like buying gear off Century and sending it to the school.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Oh, cool.

How Kali Works: Gear, Scoring, Strategy

SPEAKER_04 17:44

So we were very fortunate in the in it says l really a lot about our instructors, I think. So we had a martial arts school all of a sudden. We still have it. Um the that was fifteen years ago. And we still have the school. Yeah. And so during this period people were very angry and felt betrayed and had a hard time believing we didn't know anything about it, which we didn't. Um, but I I said, listen, there's two things you have to keep in mind. One is a school is just a building. Yeah, I mean that's a building, the school is the people. We're locked out of the building, nobody can lock us out of a school because it's it's us. So you know, and the other thing is that your kids are gonna handle this the way you do. So it's very important that you handle it the way you want them to handle it. And with those two principles, we we got through the transition um with about forty families, um, and built our school from there. So that was the beginning of my martial arts journey uh with reluct reluctant school ownership um with that. But we continued to train uh and um I was not a very um I was trainable, you know, not very athletic, but um determined and so uh we wanted to be well rounded as martial artists, so uh we wanted to learn some weapons and it just so happened that one of the best uh Filipino colleagues Ernest Masters is in our area, so we went to study with him and that turned out to be my sport. Like that turned out that that was was my my passion. So I trained in in Cali and competed and made I was on the US nationals team three times and competed at Worlds twice. Um I won there once, won at Nationals all three times, so that's kind of my my thing. Um it full says full contact, stick fighting.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, I was gonna say um Cali to me sounds like the hangout and eat shrimp tacos and surf. That's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

If you could explain that a little bit for not only for John, but for our six uh our six listeners.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

Sure. So Cali is uh um Filipino martial art and um the sticks are yeah I don't know, like two to three feet long, uh rattan, made of retained. They're kinda like, you know, a third of a bow staff or something maybe. And um you can fight in as a sport you fight in armor. And in Filipino culture, the stick was um the precursor, learning stick is the precursor to learning to use a blade. So you use the stick as though it had an edge, as though it had a sharp edge, and when you learn your strikes and you know everything, you do it as though you had a sword.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Oh, so you're pretty much a Jedi you're a Jedi? Is that what that's what I'm hearing? You're pretty much a Jedi.

SPEAKER_04 20:48

Pretty pretty much, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

That sounds fine.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Um yeah, so I'll be there like I can teleport there. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

But I feel right there.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

I feel like I can pick studio number three, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

I feel like I can picture this in my head, though. Like I can see people with like, I don't know, two foot long sticks in each hand. I don't know, was that in a movie or something, Scott? Like I feel like I I could picture it. Like someone whacking at somebody with something.

SPEAKER_04 21:16

I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure you can. There was you know, and go ahead, I'm sorry, Shannon. I was gonna say, I mean, Dan and Asanto, um, briefly's teacher, and you know, he he's one of the greatest uh Cali instructors anywhere. He does a lot of movie choreography too, so you probably see have seen it in some of his stuff. Um but as a sport, you know, you you do you wear armor.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

That's good.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

Um it there's not regulated armor, so you're always, you know, making the trade-off, like do you want heavier armor so you feel less of the hit but you can't move as well and you get tired, or do you want lighter armor so you can move better but you take more damage? So you have to make those decisions but you know, based on your style. Um, how does one how does one win in that?

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Like what's uh how does one score a point for lack of a better term?

Trainable vs Gifted: Humility And Coaching

SPEAKER_04 22:16

Oh god, that's a that's an excellent question because it's fast, you know. And so really um ring generalm is is a lot of it, um, you know, being very definite that you're controlling the pace, um, getting the first and last hit in an engagement. Um they can't count how many hits you got versus how many hits the other person got because it is way too fast. But they can see who's in charge of what's going on. And again, like you go in, get the first hit, get out with the last hit, that that makes a big impression. And then, of course, if you disarm the other person, if you get their stick, head hits are good. If you can break your stick on their head, that makes a big people like that. That's a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to pause for a moment to reflect on the if you break the stick on their head. Scott, what kind of people do you work with? And then, John, I'm gonna tell you this. I met Shannon in a dark L and you gave her your wallet?

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Well, I met Jennifer the first time face to face with you, what, uh a couple weeks ago, wasn't it, Shannon? Like a couple weeks ago. I think it's the first time we've talked many, many times. But uh, Shannon is not the large talking that's gonna break out of your own. So I want to go back to the started martial arts because you wanted to do stuff with your children and because with the pediatrician, specifically because of them being on the spectrum. You talked about you know, you train when they were training, you train when they weren't training, you train multiple times a day, things like that. I said you were trainable. Okay. Maybe not necessarily uh unnatural. Is that a fair statement? How do you see that? How is that something? I'm trying to see where I'm going with this. How has that helped you in the process? Are you do you think you're a better person as an athlete because you were trainable, or do you think it's something that, you know, you it sort of caused you to work harder?

Running, Long COVID, And Identity Shifts

SPEAKER_04 24:30

Yeah, I I see what you're saying. Um, you know, well, t to the point you started with, everybody has their own journey, you know, and you you see kids that are have a lot of natural gift and sometimes once they once it begins to get difficult, you know, once once they kind of reach the place where their gift has taken them as far as it can and and they they have to work and have a lot of discipline. Sometimes they experience a lot of frustration. Um I I experienced frustration from the beginning. So like you know, I never really had that that particular problem of that. But I but I think you know what it taught me was was just that um, you know, I I I worked hard, I had to work harder, I had to be smarter. I'm also not very tall, you know. So like I'm always a shorter fighter, and so you know, I I had to work have to work that that way. But so it did a lot for me as a person, I mean as an athlete and as a person, because other things in my life have come more easily to me than this did. And um so it was humbling. Um, it was a good life lesson. And it actually it it's it it was the first time in my life that I had made a group of friends that I knew for a fact did not like me because I was good at something. You know what I mean? Like if they totally like these guys copied off my paper straight through college or like they're scooting over to say, right? This was not that kind of situation. Like these people, I I was I was not the brightest bulb in the room and I made friends anyway, and that actually meant a lot to me. That camaraderie um was important to me. But you know, I'm not suggesting that those who have natural gifts don't learn their own lessons or or learned lesser lessons. It's just different, you know, it's just a different situation. I think I'm a better teacher in a lot of ways because of it, you know, because uh uh some of these guys, you know, they don't know how they do what they do, right? Exactly, you know, but I I do like I know how I I know how because I've done it wrong so many times and gotten hit in the head for it, right? So like uh you learn very quickly, like there's immediate consequences to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Um so in that sense, you know, I I think it it's been definitely good. And running's the same way for me. Like, you know, it's it's it's something that teaches you that you can persevere, you can do difficult things, um you know, you can push through and uh and and and I've had the best coaches, you know, like uh a coach one of my coaches, competition coaches, is like, you know, every once in a while I get a little whiny, right? After being beat about the head for a few hours. There's like no other women. There's no other women that trained at my gym. So I you know, these guys are hitting me harder than I ever got hit in competition, which is good. But also, you know, after a while it's like, Jesus. And um, and he's like, you know, like he's like, This this these are the ones we train for. We don't train for the easy ones. We train for these, the and we train for the hard ones. So get in there and train for the hard one.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

I think I think you've accidentally highlighted something. I don't know, we're 50 something episodes in on the podcast. And it's come up a lot with our with our guests where uh you haven't said the word out loud, but community. It started with you know, they lock the doors on you and yet the community persists. And you know, there's a bunch of guys in the room, and God knows how that goes. And you're still part of their group because of the community. And that you know, you can be an educator and a teacher because they recognize that you know you are a caring part of the community. So that that's that's outstanding. That that's great that that happened organically like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

I think one of the things that you also had on Shannon was you mentioned the word humbling with you know some of your training. That part of it if it came easy, everybody would do everything. We talk quite often on this show about you know romantic athletes for the first time maybe in a long time or ever getting up off the couch, putting potatoes down, not sponsor, and trying to figure out what am I gonna do because you know, like that one Christmas cartel that the grandpa who starts with the kettlebell wants to lift his granddaughter up next year to put the Christmas car up. I know it's a big thing. The idea here you've got to push outside of your comfort zone. You've got to be helpful a little bit along that journey. So the micro turn into you know maybe a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger. And I I think hitting on that in the concept with the community. It's not always easy. But that community helped you keep going. You know, you never stopped. You could have stopped getting, you know, like you said, getting hit harder than any other female athlete would hit you in the head by these men. You could have stopped and said, Well, this is bull. I'm not gonna do this. There's no women here. But you didn't. It's no consistency.

Transition To Coaching And Health Realities

SPEAKER_04 30:10

Yeah, and there's a lot to showing up. I mean, I I really mean that. Like you you know, to the commitment. I I broke my ankle, um, I still came, you know, I had several concussions and I always still went, even if I couldn't um practice or work out because I wanted to keep that time in my schedule committed to that activity. And of course you can learn a lot by watching too. But yeah, it's it's um I the community I think is definitely especially you know, what keeps keeps people coming and and like I said, I had I had great coaches and and you know, I I remember uh on another one of these uh slightly whiny occasions. Some sometimes people don't know what to tell you. They say like, don't be there, right? Don't be there. Because you just, you know, got hit. And I'm like, bro, if I didn't if I knew how to not be there, do you think I would have been there? Like I would not have been there if I knew how to not be there. I wasn't like a plan. You know, and my coach pulled me aside, he said, Listen, today I don't have anything to tell you, any constructive criticism or anything. He said, Don't come back. Just don't come back. Because what I'm telling you is I've taught you everything I can or everything I think, you know, I've taken you as far as I can. So every time I tell you something, it's because I believe you can get better. And you know, that's the way you gotta take it. And that was profound statement to me, and I use it in a in a nicer way than he said it to me with my students every semester, right? When I give them feedback on their work. You know, every time I say, Listen, you know, if I didn't have anything to say about your work, if I didn't have any um critique, right, or correct anything, it would mean I really I either didn't care or didn't think you could get any better. Okay, but I do. I do think you can get better, so that's why I wrote this on your paper because I would like to see, you know, your writing get up to the level of your thinking.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

I uh I I'm sorry, I stopped listening. I mean, you are in a sport where you said you got concussions. Sure, makes sense. Sure. How'd you break your ankle?

SPEAKER_04 32:30

It's embarrassing. Um I broke it on it I broke it on trampoline. Oh. And I actually train I actually trained on it for three months because they're gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Oh, of course you did.

SPEAKER_04 32:43

I was told it was sprained, and they go, Listen, it's gonna swell and it's gonna hurt, but you know, and sure enough, it did swell and it did hurt. So I was like, ah, I guess you're right. And finally my coach is like, go get that thing x-rayed and don't come back until you do. And I went back and yeah, it was broken. Um, so I had to go, I had to wear the boot.

Taekwondo Progress, Stripes, And Grit

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Well, that's not a positive.

SPEAKER_04 33:04

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

But we say that.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

No, it wasn't. But but I did train and run through through that, you know, whole time.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

And um you're talking to guys that don't run. Okay, for for us, cardio is pick up that sandbag and carry it for a minute. And your heart rate is up around 250. But I mean you've you said something earlier where you said um you got hit and their comment to you is don't be there. Well, that's along the lines of when John and I are training at the compound and he'll go to lift something that doesn't move, and look at him and say, just get stronger. You know, it's the same mentality.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

But it's it's the consistency, it's the journey, it's that sort of process that you go through that I think uh so many masters athletes don't think about anymore. Because you know, I'm I'm 45, I'm 55, I'm gonna be 60 next year, type of thing. Well, okay. Then curl up in a ball and die. If that's your attitude, that's the way we look at it.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

Yeah. Yeah. Don't ever let anybody tell you you can't do something because of your age. That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Um I tell John or anything else. But that's just because it's John.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Yeah. And he doesn't, you know. And you wouldn't really let him not do it.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Yes, he would. Yes, I would. I could be whiny. You don't you don't know whiny.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

It's only because what when we go to competitions and whatnot, Shannon, I give him so much grief. But you know, you talk John talked about community and you know your personality and whatnot. John and I have been involved in competitions. But quite honestly, we don't have a right being acting. Am I wrong? If not wrong, and it's simply because of his personality.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah, I think it's because we're a novelty act, but we'll we'll chalk it up to my personality.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah. I'm strong. John is funny. So strong and funny work for people.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Do you want me to tell you about the time I uh beat Scott in the log lift? Oh no, I just like to bring that up.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Um we can tell you about the time John had to cut five pounds in the skaking in a corner and losing like 18 pounds.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

We don't need to do the weight cut story. Sometime we'll meet Janet in in person, we'll tell her that story. I have a question about your running. I told him you want to don't run. Yeah, is your running a sport or is it a training?

SPEAKER_04 35:42

Like the mental health. Um, yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

It's so I don't murder people? Oh, that's uh that's well the woman breaks sticks over people's that's gotta be satisfying.

Silver Sticks, Self-Defense, And Aging Well

SPEAKER_04 35:54

That's where my yeah, that's um but it it's a similar kind of discipline, you know. It's like I as you say I just want to be better than I was the day before. You know, I want to run a little faster, a little further um than than the day before. And um I uh yeah, it it it's I I had uh I got COVID and I got long COVID and I couldn't run for over two years and yeah not it was i it was yeah it was it was very um that was very trying time. I had to learn a lot about who I was when I didn't have you know those outlets. Um and and I tell you, like it we i it it's hard. You you mentioned, you know, master athletes not always thinking about certain things. I mean it's true of all of us all the time. You know, we we I don't know if take for granted is the right word. It's normal inductive reasoning. Once something happens a certain number of times, you believe that that's gonna happen. And so, you know, I believe there was gonna be a day I wouldn't get up and run and until there was, and it made me think about the people that like live in chronic pain and live with chronic fatigue. And um, you know, those are those are people that deserve like our utmost uh respect and compassion because that that is a difficult, difficult thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Um but there but see there's there's a thing like like I did a bunch of research on this. Like we define, especially as we get older, we define ourselves by a few things, you know, mother, wife, firefighter, athlete, you know, there's podcaster. Yeah, there's like six, eight things. I I think for a lot of people, the the triggers in anxiety that came with COVID were when three or four of those things were just yanked away.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Like, you know, sure.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

I am not this thing anymore. So what am I? Yeah, I I I get that. And it's it's real. It's it's I think everybody needs to understand. Yeah, I think that's a lot of the trauma of you know, if you're a high-level athlete and you get hurt, I think not being able to get out after it is one of those things.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

But you I mean uh Yes, but I think COVID silver lining. It allowed people to sort of explore some new avenues. Um with I mean John and I got after some of our most aggressive uh uh training grinds during COVID. Because there was a gym that you know you sort of schedule when you were going to be there, and it was a large gym and it was I mean, this whole facility John and I were the only two people training there. And we diligently maintained our six-foot distance. Right. Amen. And just some of those things it forced you to be more creative, more aggressive with what you did.

SPEAKER_04 39:01

Yeah, but I I think that's absolutely the case. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

So are we still are we still beating people with sticks and are we still looking for national championships? And are we still teaching and training?

SPEAKER_04 39:13

So So I'm still I'm I'm still coaching. I'm not competing uh anymore. Um I Why?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Oh, look, I called you out on it.

SPEAKER_04 39:24

I no, I don't mind being called out on that at all. Um so uh I have leukemia. Oh Jesus uh Thanksgiving. Thanks for that.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

I fell right into that one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 39:36

Yeah, yeah, I have leukemia and Jesus. Are you okay? Am I allowed?

SPEAKER_02 39:41

I better say this. Are you okay? Okay.

Confidence, Community, And First Steps

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Yeah, I'm okay. Um I'm okay, but there is an element of fatigue uh to it that is counter to competition. But I enjoy coaching and um you know, I really enjoy that part of it and I enjoy teaching self defense classes. Um you know, I can still train lightly a lot of the time. There's some times when I can't. Um but it's um yeah, yeah, I'm I I'm not a com I mean, I'm just not a competitor anymore. I had to come to terms with that for sure. Um but it's i I love watching the I love watching the progress, you know, of the students. And um I feel like there's a story I want to tell you guys about my daughter when and this is a taekwondo story. So I've I have a fourth degree in Taekwondo.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Of course you do.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

Um as one. And that that's necessary, right, right. And uh and uh and and my oldest two also have uh first and second degrees in in Taekwondo.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

But when my daughter was Can I interrupt before you start your story and just ask what taekwondo is? Like I they all blend together in my head, so I don't know which one.

SPEAKER_04 40:56

Oh it's like it's like Korean karate.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

It's like Korean, Korean karate. Um it's more of a kicking than a punching art.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Um if you wanted to make a distinction uh between the two, but a lot of people use them interchangeably, although they're not the same.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

They're close. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um so taekwondo you know is largely taught to kids here in the United States, and um psychological principle, you know, like uh you you gotta reward them, right? I mean, if you if you brought a kid into a taekwondo school and said, hey, in five, eight, or ten years you're gonna maybe be a black belt, you know, they just turn around and lock back out. So, you know, you have this belt ranking system, right? You know, they white belt, yellow belt, green belt, and so on. So they mark their progress with something specific and concrete that they can work towards and be proud of, and they should be proud of that. And on the belt, you get stripes for different skills when it shows that you're getting ready to test up to your next belt. That's the way that system works, right? So this is my middle child, my my neurotypical child, you know, uh straight up born adult in this kid, right? And uh she um just she worked hard. She's she's a first year law student at Georgetown this year. Um she's got a lot of grit and she's got a lot of determination. So she's nine years old and she's testing for her form strike, and uh she doesn't get it. And only mortified and heartbroken because she didn't get the strike, you know. I think it's probably the first thing she ever did. She didn't get that she Yeah, she didn't get that she worked for. And I wasn't really prepared for this. I didn't I didn't have a speech or anything. Like she's just sobbing looking up at me and you know, like and I'm like, I I usually I've got I hadn't I had nothing, you know. So I said, Lizbeth, what what are you gonna do with all that disappointment? And she said, Mommy, I'm gonna turn it into hard work.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Oh geez. Nice. Wow, you birthed the terminator. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

And I was like, holy crap. Wow But um yeah, much better than anything I could have said. But I think about that all the time because I think that's what it's about, right? That's that's what athletics is about. That's what martial arts is about. You know, you take those disappointments and you turn it into hard work.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah, I think sport sport is all about safe failure, right? Like I think it it's one venue that you can fail in, and the consequence is, you know, it's it's real disappointment and it's a a lot of agony, but you know, there isn't any consequence, like they don't take your house away or anything.

SPEAKER_04 44:06

I've not heard of that yet.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Yet. Although I I don't know, you hit people on with sticks on the head. Who knows what sports you I know.

SPEAKER_04 44:13

I don't people always people are so funny when they find it's out. They're like, you seem so nice. And I'm like, I am nice. Yeah, it's always it's always the nice ones, though.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Yeah, it's always the nice ones, especially like women. Women come at you like a like a Wolverine. Like in my head, you're basically a Wolverine. Well, Karen. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

Inside the ring, you know, it's always my turn, but outside the ring, I'm a nice person. You are a nice person. Yeah, yeah. I mean, then that's probably why. Because I I have that.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Everybody everybody stays three feet away from her, though. Just in the right. John sticks are three feet long. Yes, exactly. All right, so everybody stays three and a half feet away from her.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Yeah. Yeah, maybe a little bit further. But it's really funny when I tell I meet people and they ask, you know, they ask about it, and I say, Yeah, I'm like, I'm a martial artist or I have a black belt, and they were like, Oh, I'd better not mess with you.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

And I was like, Were you about to? Like that was that what was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

I like I like that answer. I like that. That was a good comeback to that. Do you teach kids or adults?

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Both.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Oh, yeah. Most of the kids.

SPEAKER_04 45:19

But yeah, our school mostly teaches kids. I teach um probably more adults because I teach the uh self-defense women's self-defense classes, which is one of my absolute favorite things to do. Um so usually more teens than adults, you know, uh in those classes when they go to high school, when they learn to drive, when they go to college, like these periods of greater independence are it are times when it's it's really good.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

But if I'm if uh if I'm a 40-year-old woman listening to this, d do I want to go learn how to beat people up with sticks? Like, is that attainable? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Well, I know mentally I want to. I was I was married once. I know that's exactly true. But is that a good thing for a 40-year-old woman?

SPEAKER_04 46:06

Absolutely it is. For a while, I taught a class called Silver Sticks through the Y, and I taught seniors. I taught seniors with this because it's the best improvised weapon training you're gonna get. I mean, what around you know, everything around you can be like a stick.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah, I was gonna say, I I suddenly, every every old lady at Walmart carrying a cane, I'm suddenly afraid of.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Yeah, cane food, watch out.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Cane food.

SPEAKER_04 46:34

Watch out. But it yeah, and it I mean, I it's okay, so I do it for competition, but it's also great for balance. It's great for focus. You don't have to compete to train in Cali. You know, like you're there's you can there's other reasons to do it and other ways to do it. So I I would encourage it for anyone of any age. The footwork is interesting. It's good for your mind to remember the patterns. Um it's good partner drills for coordination. Like there's a a lot of good reasons to do it. There's no limit on the age you can start. We have fifty, sixty year old people who train. So yeah, and it's and a redo to me, it's kind of redefined aging. Like I I like that about sports competition in general. You know, you see people achieving things at at different ages that maybe at one time.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

I think we see that with a lot of the martial arts is I mean, when you look at it, um tai chi, you know, all of these types of things. Yeah. The older generations tend to be more involved in it. And John and I have talked quite a bit on the show about how footwork, you know, mental acuity, these types of things affect healthier living. Fewer falls, yeah, those types of things. Yeah, like fewer falling, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing the data on what happens if you fall. And I always I always wondered how you know what drove that. It's the fact that you're not strong enough to stop yourself from falling. Like you can't just throw a leg out quickly and catch yourself. It just speaks to a lot of things that you craft something with your hand.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

We talked about it in terms of grip as well.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah, that's absolutely true. And it also I think it's just because I am now older that uh I don't I don't know. Sixty years old isn't sixty years old when I was fifteen. You know what I mean? Sixty-year-olds are still getting after it in a way I don't think they were 50 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

They are whipping your ass.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Well, I don't trust old ladies with sticks anymore, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

Oh, I know. Yeah. Just don't go home without one. I mean, you know, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Wow, right now John's gonna walk into the compound on Sunday with a cane.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Well, I've I'm assuming that that Shannon walks around with a purse that looks surprisingly like a like a pool cue carrying base.

SPEAKER_04 48:57

But you know, that's great. That's great. Well, I actually I play the violin. And so, you know, uh, flip the extra. Yeah, it's definitely a extra one in.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

There's definitely a violin in that case. Definitely. Don't don't worry about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

Don't worry, don't need to check. So yeah, I don't need to check.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Shannon, we we've covered a ton of ground tonight. You know, we're we're about 50 minutes into this. Oh, if you had to uh you know, sort of summarize everything to give one piece of advice. You know, you do silver sticks or you did silver sticks with some some folks and you work with uh you know teens and and women, adult women on self-defense and stuff. What one thing would you want somebody to come away from our conversation tonight with to uh to sort of move forward? What what one kernel of the one thing okay.

SPEAKER_04 49:55

Well, I mean I I I I really kind of feel like Elizabeth, you know, kind of sold my show on that, right, with it. But but I guess I would say the day before I walked into a martial arts school was like any other day. Um I you know, I had no idea that the next day my life was gonna be completely changed uh by martial arts. And and it was simply a matter of taking that first step of of walking in there and doing it. So, you know, I would say um, you know, your your life is it does it may not feel like it, but your life is under your control and you can find a time. You don't already need to be in shape. You will find a group of people who who believe in your improvement and want to see you get better every day and want to be a part of that, and that's not an easy thing to find you know in our culture, but it's an easy thing to find in martial arts.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

I um absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Yeah, I actually just I just heard the quote that for new athletes, the heaviest weight in the gym is the door. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

Yes, absolutely. And so go through it. You know, the people on the other side will be delighted to see you. You know, they were white belts too, you know. The that's I d I can't emphasize it enough. So, you know, really I really think that um there's something for everyone in martial arts. Um there are many arts. I don't think there's a best one, there's there's a good one, you know, for people.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Um I can think of a scary one. It involves shiny little women with sticks.

SPEAKER_03 51:38

That's a phrase. Well, the I I love the confidence.

SPEAKER_04 51:42

I mean the you know, I feel that I'm a better teacher, I feel I'm a better citizen, you know. I I when I approach people, I don't assess them based on whether I'm afraid of them or not. And I think people can tell that. And I think it makes it possible for me to to to be of use and and to help others and make friends and um be more open because physically I feel confident.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

I think that that's about my I'm sorry. Go ahead and finish it.

SPEAKER_04 52:15

I was just gonna say of about my ability to take care of myself.

Closing And Listener Support

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah, and I think that's a huge, huge part of it. You know, you you sort of summed it up right there when you said it's confidence. It's you have to have that confidence. You know, people aren't looking for you to fail, they're looking for you to succeed. And uh thank you. You know, a lot of what you cared to think people uh John and I've been saying it in uh a different voice at somebody who has lived it and gone through it, you know, with the interest that you know the battles that they're fighting with the right now. All of those things you need to be confident in yourself in doing it. Uh I I know I speak for myself and John when I say thank you for taking the time tonight to uh to come and talk to us.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Yeah, thanks, Jan. And uh uh again, I'm gonna keep all sticks three and a half feet away from you.

SPEAKER_03 53:11

And uh good luck on that. Don't worry, Jen. I'm gonna trip him. I'm gonna trip him. I will take it.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

No.

SPEAKER_04 53:19

Well, thank you. Thank you both so much. This is absolutely uh delightful. Um, I really appreciate uh the invitation, and I'll look forward to listening regularly.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

There you go. You're my favorite now. All right. I am still John. I'm still Scott. And that was Shannon. Thanks, Shannon. Thanks, Janan. Good night. Good night. Bye. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post it on your social media, or leave a review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram at Masters Athlete Survival Guide. Thanks again. Now get off our lawn, you damn kids.