010 - Dr. Adam Dorsay - Super Psyched: The Power of Connection

In this special episode of Life With Purpose, Mel is joined by Dr. Adam Dorsay, a seasoned psychotherapist, award-winning podcast host, and author of Super Psyched: Unleash the Power of the Four Types of Connection and Live the Life You Love. With over 20,000 hours of psychotherapy experience, Adam has worked with everyone from Silicon Valley executives to professional athletes and survivors of extraordinary challenges.

Together, Mel and Adam dive discuss the four types of connection outlined in his book - connection with self, others, the world, and something greater. They explore why authentic connection is vital for living a fulfilling life, the challenges posed by faux connections, and practical tips to strengthen meaningful relationships in all areas of life.

Adam also shares insights on overcoming social comparison, nurturing friendships in a fast-paced world, and finding spirituality beyond the stereotypes. Packed with humour, heartfelt anecdotes, and actionable advice, this conversation will leave you feeling inspired to connect on a deeper level and live with purpose.

Mentioned in this episode:

• Adam’s book, Super Psyched
• Connection formulas for a fulfilling life
• The role of communication and self-talk in healthy relationships
• Love languages and their impact on partnerships
• How faux connections hinder true joy

For more insights, tips, and guidance on living a meaningful life, visit Mel Harrowsmith Coaching. Ready to dive deeper? Reach out to book a session and start your journey towards purpose today.

Edited with finesse, transcribed and produced by Mike Roberts at Making Digital Real

Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
Mel,

Mel Harrowsmith  0:01  
hello and welcome to the life with purpose Podcast. I'm Mel, your host, and today I am joined by a very, very special guest with over 20,000 hours of intensive psychotherapy experience. Dr Adam Dorsay is a leading therapist to Silicon Valley's top executives, Fortune 500 executives, professional athletes, survivors of torture and adolescent gang members. He is a resiliency consultant to Facebook and Digital Ocean. He is an award winning host of super psyched and author. He can speak Spanish, Japanese, and if that isn't enough, he also has a dog.

Mel Harrowsmith  0:44  
Welcome, Adam. How are you?

Adam Dorsay  0:48  
Thank you. I'm very well. Thank you. And just just to be clear, I did Facebook for four years, from 2014 to 2000 beginning of 18, and no longer than there, but just just in case the written word was inaccurate, I just wanted to make sure that was clear so everything else was spot on. 

Mel Harrowsmith  1:08  
It's still very impressive, even if, even if it's in the past, especially the dog. I mean, a great dog, yeah, let's face it, the dog is the most impressive thing we're all about.

Mel Harrowsmith  1:20  
So it's an absolute pleasure to be talking to you today. And we were chatting just beforehand, and I was explaining to you how excited I am to have you here, and how excited I've been since I got the email to say that you were you were coming on. So it's wonderful to have you here. And today we're going to be talking about your new book, which is super psyched unleash the power of the four types of connection and live the life you love. Well, that just sounds fantastic to live the life we love. So how about we get straight into it. And I'd like to start by asking you, what drove you to write a book about connection? 

Adam Dorsay  1:58  
Well, Mel, you're already just in the brief time we've had, what just a great connection to have. I've just loved talking with you. It's, I like to say it's the fourth book I've started and the only one I've finished. Oh, wow, it was the book I had to write after providing so many hours of psychotherapy, after having nearly 200 at the time, podcast interviews, after reading tons of books, there was one common denominator throughout all of these three seemingly disparate things, and that was the word connection kept coming up. The only problem with connection is it was nebulous. It was not really well defined. 

Adam Dorsay  2:36  
Everybody wants this thing more than anything else. Is this thing called connection between our birth date and our death date. We want more connection while we are living. So I went out to define connection and also to look at it differently. Many books talk about connecting with your romantic partner, with your clients, with your children, but very few books have looked at anything more than that. I decided to look at connections in four ways, and I believe it's the only four ways that we actually do connect. Think of it as concentric circles. It starts with the nucleus of connecting with ourselves, because all connections are informed by how we connect with ourselves. Some people might say it's selfish to connect with ourselves. 

Adam Dorsay  3:20  
I would say that in order to be less sufferable to others, we must connect with ourselves. And in fact, in order to be positively more joyful to be around, I'm not saying living a solipsistic and existence and not caring and being totally narcissistic, but I am saying we have to know who we are and be authentic with who we are, and then move out. And then the second circle is connecting with others. Others could be actually connecting with you, Mel, or connecting with my wife or my children or my colleagues or my beautiful cat who's sitting on the sofa behind me somewhere. It could be any form of connection with others, even as you are leaving what we have our grocery stores called Trader Joe's out here, which we love so much, connecting with the person as you're leaving. 

Adam Dorsay  4:07  
Third Connect. Connection is connecting with the world, connecting with art, connecting with nature, connecting with all of the things that exist outside of us. It could include work. Work is a very important connection. And the fourth is connecting with something greater, connecting with something greater. For some means connecting with God, but for even the most orthodox atheist, when they go to a beautiful place like Yosemite, or they see the grandeur of probably your region in Devon England, which I imagine, I can only imagine, I can only imagine, is just gorgeous. 

Adam Dorsay  4:42  
On the most beautiful of days, you feel a sense of awe that too is something greater. It's, it's a human experience, irrespective of one's ideological perspective. So I wanted to really delve into those four connections and help people cultivate their own.

Adam Dorsay  5:00  
Connection formulas, since no two people have exactly the same needs for connection, my father loves the six hour Wagnerian opera, I consider a six hour Wagnerian opera a very expensive place to sleep, and he could go his entire life without touching an animal. I can barely make it through a day without being with one of my pets. So we all have different connection formulas. You and I probably share a love of the pets, and so there's maybe some overlap, but there's some places where you might connect with yourself, others, the world or something greater. 

Adam Dorsay  5:32  
And I might say, Wow, that's that's not my jam, but that's so cool that you do Yeah, so what is it about? I mean, there's so much in there that we're going to dig into over the course of this conversation. But what is it about a connection that is, why is it so important? It's so important because it seems to be based on everything I can have read, through existential psychotherapy, through positive psychology, it seems to be the key. It seems to be the key that brings us alive while we're living when we are not connected to who we are. Let's, let's pretend for a second that I needed to become an accountant. I'm a psychologist. 

Adam Dorsay  6:08  
I'm a people person. I'm not. Nothing about me. Screams accountant. 

Mel Harrowsmith  6:13  
There was, there was a massive sigh there when you said, when you were trying to imagine being an accountant. So I think we can say that's not the role for you totally. 

Adam Dorsay  6:22  
And my accountant loves being an accountant, and he's really good at being an accountant, yeah, but many of us pretend to be something we're not. Let's imagine we're even a gay person trying to pose in a straight relationship. We walk through life as if we have rocks in our shoes. And when we are more authentic, we are happier, we are stronger, we are more fun to be around. That's for sure. You know, I with all due respect to to Morrissey, who writes really crafty lyrics, but they're generally fairly sardonic, perhaps a little bit what's the word I would use, he's not exactly the most people person you've ever he may be even considered slightly misanthropic and maybe even in love with schadenfreude. I might be wrong. 

Adam Dorsay  7:12  
Maybe I'll have a fight with him one day. I'll find out I'm entirely wrong. But based on his lyrics, particularly from hat full of hollow which was my favorite album, one of my favorite albums in high school, and I love it. I don't imagine him to be super, super happy based on it, maybe he or maybe through his, you know, semi vitriolic lyrics, he was able to expunge himself of some of the negativity. 

Adam Dorsay  7:37  
And maybe he's totally joyful to be around, I don't know, but he's living his life, and he's doing his thing, and people love it, and so have I, but one of the things we want is and I'm not saying that we often have to be sunshine and joyful to be around but I am saying that when we are authentic, we feel a sense of empowerment, And we're more likely to empower others. Oftentimes hurt people. Hurt people. When we are hurting inside, we end up hurting others. And when we are connected to ourselves, we connect better with others. Interestingly, it also has been shown that when we are depressed or anxious, one of the best things we can do is connect with others, perhaps through volunteerism. All of the research corroborates that. I mean, not giving too much of yourself, that you end up fatigued trying to be the next Mother Teresa. Because very few of us can do Mother Teresa. 

Adam Dorsay  8:29  
That's, that's a that's a high bar. That's the Olympic sport, the Olympic athlete level of, you know, giving. But maybe we can do a little bit better through giving, and we'll feel better about who we are, and maybe ultimately, feel more connected to ourselves as we do so our kindness when we connect with that, that may grow. 

Mel Harrowsmith  8:52  
So that sounds like, you know, a wonderful thing, painting this picture of connection and how important it is for us. But obviously, there's, there's, there's obstacles here. Otherwise we wouldn't need this book. So what are the common obstacles that you're coming across that are that are in the way and stopping us from connecting with these four types of connection, 

Adam Dorsay  9:13  
I would call it faux connection, F, A, u, x, the fake kind of connection that we believe will be connection. So we connect through these little blue lights that are in our pockets all day that call us. It's like, oh, I have a beautiful iPhone. It seems it's calling me and I will spend countless hours. In fact, most of us have no idea how many hours we're spending on this thing, looking for connection through social media, through Doom, scrolling through other activities, responding to emails and faxes, texts, different acts we might wake up on a Saturday morning after a very busy week, brew some coffee, turn on Netflix and start streaming and maybe even binging something folding along.

Adam Dorsay  10:00  
Simultaneously drinking the coffee, petting the pet, responding the texts and emails. And then Monday rolls around and we wonder what happened to our weekend. We're not connecting with the activities that require a little more energy. One of the biggest obstacles, in my opinion, is that we go for what is easy, rather than what actually supplies us with true connection? Some of the things that supplies with true connection might require some activation energy. Might require us to double down and do something a little bit harder, like put on my boots, drive to the best hiking spot, go for a two hour hike. Connect with nature, connect with my partner, as we're talking in nature, get getting those photons that our body needs to produce, vitamin D, so anti depressing, even on a cloudy day, we have probably many more Lux than we do in the most well lighted room, the well most of the well lighted room may have 900 Lux, while outside, even on a gray day, may have 8000 or more Lux, even though it doesn't look that way, and our body soaks it up. It requires activation energy, and many things that require energy give us energy back, doing what I just described, of the person on the Saturday morning, brewing the coffee and doing all the other things while actually doing kind of nothing, because we're not really doing one thing our brain. We think we can multitask. We think that we're we can do it all. That's not a way for us to rejuvenate or to connect with ourselves or to connect with others. So there are a lot of things that get in the way. Another big one is social comparison, talking. I roll up in my brand new Hyundai SUV, plug in hybrid. I'm so happy with it, and I see to the left of me is a Mercedes, and to the right of me is a Porsche, and that would be my neighborhood. What if I felt so happy about my new car and felt diminished because the others looked better, or I felt diminished because somebody is describing their lives on social media, and I'm thinking, wow, they're doing all these cool things. 

Adam Dorsay  12:04  
Look at my life. I kind of suck. So social comparison kills us. What if we compared ourselves to ourselves rather than to others? What if we said, hey, relative to what I was doing a year ago, I've got some better habits. I'm feeling really good about what I'm reading, the people I'm hanging out with, and I'm consistently trying to do better. So social comparison is a big one another. There's so many elements to that social comparison, but we have this negativity bias as well in our brains that looks at what's wrong rather than what's right. It's very easy to have a vacation and one thing goes badly, and 99 things going well, and we focus on the bad things. So there's so many

Adam Dorsay  12:46  
things that exist in our brain, biases and others that get in the way with us being connected ourselves, others, the world and something greater. 

Mel Harrowsmith  12:54  
Yeah, the social comparison one's really interesting. And I really liked the point you made there about, you know, let's not look outside. Let's let's look inside, and let's be confident and sure about who we are on the inside. And that, you know, if we love our Hyundai, we love our Hyundai, and it doesn't matter that it's not a Mercedes or a Porsche. 

Adam Dorsay  13:14  
And by the way, I have to, every time I get in that car, I enjoy it. I enjoy it, irrespective of the and I actually got rid of the OEM tires, and I got some nice, nice, high grade tires, and it rides so beautifully. And every it's become a family joke. At some points, like Alfred Hitchcock showing up in a movie. At some point in Ella's movies, he always would make a cameo. 

Adam Dorsay  13:35  
At some point I will make the cameo of, aren't these awesome tires? These are great tires. And in my family always kind of starts laughing because they know it's it's coming, and that actually one of the hacks is what we appreciate. Appreciates, yeah, we should probably point out that you're not actually sponsored by a Hyundai. This is your person. This is your personal opinion. But I was also wondering, in addition to that, that internal confidence in yourself and accepting your own loves and being comfortable with that. Is there an element of also recognizing that just because some you think that everything out there, especially on some of our favorite social media channels, is being presented in such a way, is it important for us to recognize that that is a perception and that we, you know, yeah, entirely, entirely, no one's showing, you know, they're very few people. I should say maybe some people are actually showing their their mistakes, their screw ups. Most of them are really just choosing something awesome and making it look even more awesome than it actually was. So, yeah, I actually went to go see my beloved Golden State Warriors, my favorite sports team, the other night, and we got the nose beat seats. I mean, these were terrible seats. And so I just, I just, I did post it on.

Adam Dorsay  15:00  
The social media saying I was with my son in the nose bleed seats, having the greatest of times, because we were having the greatest of times. And it was the return of clay Thompson, one of a former Golden State warrior who I loved. And it was really hard to get to that game, but I was just so grateful to be there, regardless of the seats, which definitely sucked and but I was just celebrating the fact that I was with my kid, and it was just, it was a moment, and it wasn't meant to be a flex. But I guess what I'm driving at is most people really carefully procure only the finest of images onto which we will have projections. Oh my gosh. They must be having the greatest times, the greatest conversations, it must be so romantic. They're doing everything right, and they're doing everything first class, and then we feel, oh my gosh, I fly coach class. I'm having some issues with one of my children, and things are not quite as good as their lives. So it's, it's, it can feel really diminishing, yeah, so that's an illusion. And can be, I can't say, I can't say unequivocally, but I'd say it's likely an illusion. So we were talking there about these faux connections and how they're distracting us from healthy connections. And one of the stats that jumped out to me in the book was around friendship. And the stat says that in 1990 30% of people had 10 or more friends, and about 16% have less than two now that's reversed, so that, you know, we've only got those 30% of people have got less than two friends, and only 16% I've got 10 or more. So what's going on? Why are we seeing a decrease in in the number of friends? It's getting and it's getting worse.

Adam Dorsay  16:40  
There are some studies that suggest that many people acknowledge they have no friends. Wow. And let's even just go back a little bit even further and talk about like the importance of friendship. Esther Perel reminds us that for the sake of our relationships, we need friends. We grew up in villages. Not so long ago, we had tons of people around us who provided us with some kind of support. We had someone with whom we might go hunting, someone with whom we might go drinking, someone with whom we might go building we had different people for different things in our lives, and now we expect that our spouse or our partner will fill all of those needs. And that's just not fair, and the primary romantic relationship suffers. But I think what's happening in terms of this deficit of friendship is they are not convenient, they are not easy, and we have come to a place where we expect things to be delivered overnight by FedEx, and that's even slow, because we have things instantaneously with email. We're also spending more hours at work, and we have this belief that we are so busy that who has time for friends. And many of us have moved multiple times, swearing upon, oath, upon, oath, I will stay in touch with you, except those rate friendships kind of out of sight, out of mind, so tragic. And what I would ask of people is that they go through with the inconvenience. I have a buddy, Bob. His only deficit is he lives 100 miles from me. I'm sorry, we're on the mile on this empirical system that would be about 160 kilometers away. No, we're still on miles here. Oh, you're still on miles, that's right. Yeah, we're the holdouts. So he lives 100 miles from me, and for that, I tell him, you know, that is definitely his only blemish. Halfway between us is this great place called San Francisco. On a Saturday morning, the last thing I want to do is get in my car, drive to San Francisco and try to find parking. But when I do that and I get out of my car and walk towards our cafe, where we always meet, we spend the next four to five hours in complete flow. And Time goes by so fast. And he's such a good friend, such a good listener, such a good support, and I aim to be the same for him. And when I get back in my car it I find that it's worth it. And from this experience, I derive something that I call the drive away test. When you drive away from an interaction, how do you feel? Do you feel taller, happier? Do you feel championed, or do you feel discouraged, perhaps used. So every time I drive away from Bob, without exception, I always feel taller, I feel happier, and we need to cultivate those friendships. The easiest way to do so is, of course, to look at the friendships that did exist, that have fallen by the wayside, and how can they be resuscitated? Can you call them and awkwardly say, oh my goodness, it has been so long and I've dropped the ball.

Adam Dorsay  19:39  
Would you be open to re meeting because there was something there. In some cases it won't work, but in many cases, it will, and it behooves us to prospect for people who support us and champion us, not those who take all of the air out of the room, not those who kind of crap all over our.

Adam Dorsay  20:00  
Dreams and ideas we want. Of course, we don't want somebody who's going to tell us, you know, it would be great for you to go BASE jumping without a, you know, a parachute or a win, you know. But we don't want somebody to champion us to do something absolutely reckless, let alone perhaps even BASE jumping, depending on, you know, who we are, I can't tolerate those odds. But for some people, they need to go BASE jumping. There's a new documentary on Disney called fly where you see these people who say that BASE jumping has saved their lives. So I want to give a shout out to them. And by the way, I definitely am not crapping on anybody, including Morrissey. Just to be clear, I love I love me some Morrissey, and I will still sing some of the songs at karaoke, although I prefer to pronounce it as Kato, okay, having lived in Japan, but, but friends are perhaps one of our greatest investments of time, cultivating them, keeping them alive. And it doesn't take much. All you need to do is sometimes call for no good reason. Some friendships you need to see more frequently to keep them alive. Some friendships you don't need to see as frequently. Some friendships can be revived at any time with a text, a phone call and email, perhaps the request for a zoom chat, or better still, in real life. That's kind of the hierarchy as I see it. It's kind of text, email, call, or perhaps even voice text, call, zoom and all the way at the top, of course, is the old fashioned way of meeting. Our brains are 35,000 years old, at least this version. We've had several iPhones in the last 20 years. So 17 years, we've had one brain for at least 35,000 perhaps as long as 100,000 years. And those brains are not wired for us to not have friends around us. Yeah, wow. And I think what's, what's really great about the example you gave there, about your wonderful friend Bob, is that you were able to describe what it feels like to have a really healthy connection. But it also emphasizes the point you made really early on, about it's hard, but not necessarily harder, but it takes more effort to make meaningful connections, which is why these faux connections are sometimes more appealing, because they're instantaneous and in our pocket or on our TV. So the fact that you have to drive 50 miles, but you then spend five hours having really quality time is a really great example of a healthy connection. And one of the other things you mentioned there while you were talking was work. We spend a lot of time at work, a long time. So is there anything particular that people need to think about to have a positive experience and to create connections in a work environment that might be different to some of the the other connections? There's so many elements, it's a great question, and so many doorways through which I could go in response to that question, one of them would be cultivating better relationships with your team. Simple act of going out to lunch once in a while with an individual or a group can make you feel more affiliated and more safe. We have these tribal mindsets, and one of the reasons that people complain about work is that they don't necessarily like their team, or they might really not like their boss, and that's that's a horror. You could be working at the greatest company in the world and have a crap boss, and the whole thing is kind of bad. But the things that were are within our control. We can't necessarily control a Machiavellian boss, which sadly, is, is a thing at times. They are out there. And, you know, one of my colleagues wrote a book called Snakes and suits. And they can even get darker than just, just, just mere Machiavellianism. Can get three more degrees dark. I won't go down that path for that question. What we want to do is ask ourselves, what vocational muscles do we want to grow? Perhaps we're not at the job of our dreams. Many of us are not, but there may be a way for us to improve our skills while at the job, while still doing the job. In fact, I would say, if somebody's working@apple.com

Adam Dorsay  24:00  
so to speak, on putting a.com after Apple, this tiny company of they think they sell some, some form of, I think it's a fruit stand. One of the richest, most brilliant companies in the world is Apple and but if they're working@apple.com I would say, Try thinking of it as apple.edu whatever the company is, whatever the domain name, google.edu, look at it as a well paid internship, what can you grow while working there,

Adam Dorsay  24:25  
so that you are personally, professionally better, while doing the job for the company, while getting good ratings on your performance reviews, perhaps even considering what values can you exercise while you're at The job? What is within your power are those things? There is this great site where you can find out what your core values are, what your values and actions are, perhaps even character strengths is, what they call them. In positive psychology, it's called, it's at via character.org, one word, and you can take the free.

Adam Dorsay  25:00  
Test, or you can take the paid test, and you'll find out what your 20 where you rank on the 24 strengths, and can you use one of those strengths in a novel way? I'll give an example. I Marty Seligman, who is one of the fathers of positive considered the father of positive psychology, describes a single mother who was educated, but due to the fact that she needed to give care for her child, her only option was to be a food server. And when she came to realize that one of her and she hated being a food server, she was bad at it, her colleagues, her coworkers, hated her, and she didn't really love the customers and and every four hour shift felt like it was 40 hours. I mean, when she took the via character assessment, she came to realize that one of her top strengths was interpersonal strengths. How could she cultivate those at this job? Well, she took great interest in her customers, took great interest in her coworkers, and she got to know them well and showed curiosity while she was at work. What ended up happening is her four hour shifts felt like an hour. Her tips went up, and her coworkers came to love her, and when it came time for her to leave, she was actually a little bit sad to leave, even though she was going to a better job. And that's a really good situation leaving a good situation, to go to a better situation and feeling a little sad, better to feel a little sad than profound relief. Because if you're feeling profound relief, then the heartbeats that were invested at that job were really, really, pretty lousy. If we can find a way to flip the script on a job that is not to our liking and take our power back and find some way. There's some ways. Sometimes we can't, but these are the tools that I know of that can make this very important part of life, which is called work, for which we will probably spend 90,000 hours of our life. A big portion of our life is work. The other big one, according to Sigmund Freud, and I agree with him, was love. Love and work are the two bigs in life. So we can, if we can, rock those pretty well, we're going to be doing pretty well.

Mel Harrowsmith  27:06  
I'm just interrupting this episode for a brief moment to ask, how are you enjoying these podcasts? Have you got any questions or comments you wish you could share? Well now you can, if you'd like to ask any questions or suggest topics for a future episode. If you'd like to be a guest or leave some feedback or a review on this or any other like with purpose podcast episodes, or simply say hello, then you can leave me a message at speak pipe.com, forward slash, Mel harrow Smith, coaching, and you never know. And might even include your message in a future episode. Now, let's get back to the conversation.

Mel Harrowsmith  27:49  
Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that, that story about, about the lady working in, you know, waitressing. I mean, if she can turn that around from something she hated and really bring the positives to that and turn it into something she enjoyed that's incredibly powerful, fantastic. Okay, so I want to move on a bit. So you said

Mel Harrowsmith  28:09  
earlier that, you know, individuals are likely to resonate with different connection types. And you know, I can, I can see that. I can see why people might resonate more with connecting to yourself or with others, including animals,

Mel Harrowsmith  28:22  
especially animals. Here in the UK, we seem to find it easy to connect to animals and other human beings at times. So that was probably really relatable for some of the listeners, followed by connecting to ourselves. And over recent years, the importance of connecting with nature has come much more become much more prominent

Mel Harrowsmith  28:44  
and much more in the mainstream. And you also talk in the book about connecting to art and community, ancestry and tradition, and then the fourth type of connection, which you talk about as connecting to something greater than ourselves or spirituality. I'm particularly interested in this, and I can immediately see why it might become a thorny subject. So in my experience, the mention of spirituality tends to go one of three ways. At best, you get a really open discussion where people are willing to have a nice discourse about the various meanings and definitions of spirituality, where it might go. Then you get the eye rolling response and the sarcastic comment about tie dyed clothing, incense sticks and crystals. Or then you get the response where they immediately think you're about to start talking about religion, and they either start looking for the door, run for it or immediately come back with something that's quite a strong response to a question you haven't even asked asked yet. So I could see where this might be a really thorny subject, but you present it in the book as not a thorny subject at all. So perhaps you could explain what spirit, spirituality or this connection to a greater being.

Adam Dorsay  30:00  
Means for you, sure, spirituality does not necessarily have to be religious. It is for many, and for some people with the tie dye and the crystals, they have their version. And you know, I give a salute to that and hope, hope they're making their their world a better place, and perhaps the world around other, their others. But even the most orthodox atheist, going to someplace beautiful,

Adam Dorsay  30:25  
spending time with their family, connecting with each other. Martin Buber, who was a theologian, said that we could engage with people in a way that is I, am thou or I? And it

Adam Dorsay  30:38  
so, let's say I just spoke to you as if you were a thing. Some of us actually do this. That's an i, and it relationship. I was a bank teller in graduate school, and I wrote about that in my book. And some people would just say, give me $200 from this account and cash this check. And they would talk to me like I was a meat based ATM instead, if they were to say, Hey, how's your day going, I see that you're another human being. Already, we've got something greater. Because the two of us together and Mel, you and I even just hanging out and talking together, are greater than me alone. If I was to have this conversation by myself, it would be it'd sound like a soliloquy, and it wouldn't sound all that good, but you and me together as a as a duo,

Adam Dorsay  31:25  
make something bigger than me. You're asking me questions. You're being evocative in a good way. You're evoking something from within me, and that is spiritual. And I would surmise that if you me Shane and my wife went out to a pub, the four of us would create something far greater than me alone, and that is also spiritual, if you're willing to see it that way, as I And thou suddenly, and especially if we're championing each other, not crapping on each other, we are creating something bigger and better any sports team that comes together and finds that they are greater than the sum of their parts, to what do we attribute that? Well, there's some something, some, some something that coalesces. And I would say that to some extent that is that too is spiritual,

Adam Dorsay  32:15  
certainly experiencing awe. There's been a lot of science around Awe. Awe is like gratitude on steroids. When you see a beautiful sunset and you think, wow, and you suddenly become less self conscious, less self aware, more connected to the planet, more connected to being human. That too is spiritual. It can happen with provocative, beautiful art, but when you find yourself in this awestrucks situation, one of the things that they've actually done is taken humans who are experiencing awe and taken a look at their brains through various brain scans to see what's going on when they're experiencing awe. And what they found is that the same receptors that come alive when we are exposed to psilocybin, the psychoactive chemical in magic mushrooms, awe does the same thing, just without any of the long without any of the other components. I'm not bashing on mushrooms or psilocybin. There have been some, actually some incredible studies that suggest that it's very, very good,

Adam Dorsay  33:20  
showing promise for trauma and anxiety and other things. So but you can have that without any exogenous that is external, moving component. You can do that on your own, just by experiencing awe. So that too is spiritual. So somebody's frowning and saying, oh my gosh, I don't, I'm gonna run for the door. If you even bring up the notion of spirituality, I would say that they're missing out on a lot if they're not willing to do it through some of the tried and true ways that are not, that have no none of the other factors that they may ascribe to this, this word called spirituality, yeah, and there's a, there's really interesting point that you made there. So we can,

Mel Harrowsmith  34:09  
I hope we can all remember a time where we've experienced or so I've, I've loved the natural environment since for as long as I can remember. So looking at a beautiful view, climbing a mountain, and you know, enjoying that experience, I get the awe. But what's really interesting that you hinted at there is that the more work we do on connecting with ourselves, the more we can connect with the greater self. And this is something I've experienced myself to the point now where I can be walking down the street and I'll and I'll really start seeing the people who are on the street, and every single one of them, there is some beauty that shines out of them. And I never saw that before. For years, I couldn't see that, you know, my head would be down, I'd be grumpy about something, and they were like, Oh, that person's bashed me. And why is she wearing that? And, oh, look, my phone's just pinged. Let's go and get distracted by that. So it's taken quite a long time to get to this.

Mel Harrowsmith  34:59  
Point, but there is something so magical about just being able to walk down your local road, your street, and just see the beauty in things that you haven't seen beauty in before. 

Adam Dorsay  35:09  
Yeah, and so to those who may shy away from what you just said, I would say, my goodness, well, one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, and I think anybody would have to agree that Albert Einstein who was pretty good at that science thing, he said, and I'm going to bash it, but I'm going to try to paraphrase it. He said something beautiful, like, we can either see the world as a miracle, or we can see it as, I forget the exact quote, or we can see it as like, no miracle or nothing at all.

Adam Dorsay  35:38  
Folks, look up a quote. I absolutely trashed it, but you get the idea of what I'm driving at. Einstein recognized that miracles are all around us all the time, and the mere fact that you and I are here so statistically improbable that our parents did what they did, I know just ick, but thank God they did what they did, because we're here. And the likelihood, I mean, we would be far more likely to win at any lottery or any impossible gamble, and to think about the ancestors who came before, who brought us to this planet, the likelihood of us of being born is zero, and yet, here we are. I mean, it's as close to zero as we can come. The closest estimation I was able to find is one in 10 to the 7.2 9,000,000th power. So 7.2 9 million zeros. That was, that was the best estimation I was able to find on the internet. 7.2 9 million zeros. I mean, for a million, there are just six. 7.2 9 million zeros is a lot of zeros. So we are all even, even

Adam Dorsay  36:42  
people we consider, you know, people who we wish we never met. They, too are statistical miracles, even though we may not regard them as such. Yeah, when you start talking about that many zeros, my brain is really starting to scream, and there's a potential of implosion. So maybe, maybe we'll move on. And it may not be mathematically accurate, that's the best that's the best I was able to find, but we can surmise the likelihood of us being born if we think about

Mel Harrowsmith  37:09  
the moving parts to us having been born in terms of the chemicals. Very unlikely. Yeah, yeah. I think the number of zeros probably aren't relevant. Illustrates the point beautifully. I'm so glad we don't. We do not need to go into the biology. Yes, let's not, um, so one of the things I really like in the book is it's full of real and relatable experiences, many of which you know, you've shared some of those with us, with us now. So there's some great examples of strong and healthy connections, and there's also some examples of poor and unhealthy connections, and you've drawn on experiences from your life and many of the people that you've you've helped throughout your work.

Mel Harrowsmith  37:50  
And the other thing I found very entertaining is all the movie references and two, two of my favorites, I think, is the fact that you draw on one of the greatest philosophers from the 1980s

Mel Harrowsmith  38:03  
Ferris Bueller,

Adam Dorsay  38:05  
absolutely one of the greatest. Yeah, yeah. We've all got to have a bit of Bueller in our life. And man's greatest friend, Wilson the volleyball from Castaway and everybody understood that. When you see that, you just know that's what, that's how, that's how I would regard the volleyball the same. 

Mel Harrowsmith  38:22  
Yeah, so when I read it again in the book, I sort of had a bit of a chuckle, because you're using the reference to Wilson to illustrate the really powerful need we have for connection. And the point you make in the book is that when Wilson and Tom Hanks' character are separated, you know, there's a real heart wrenching moment to that. And even reading it again in your damn book, I cried, it still hits, doesn't it even, even with even that abstract, it still hits. Such a good, such a great moment from, I don't know if it was a mechus, the director, who came up with it, or who came who was the writer, but genius, yeah. And just just, you know, you've got all these little nuggets to illustrate these amazing examples of connection. Anyway, I'm slightly digressing, but the point is, like any good book or any great movie, there's always a subplot. And I think there's a few of these running throughout Supersite. We've got that. We've got the four types of connection. But for me, it seems that communication is a key factor. So how important is effective communication to developing healthy connections, hugely including the way we communicate with ourselves. We are engaged in self talk all day. Neuroscientists estimate that we have anywhere, depending on their reading, between 6000 to maybe even above 60,000 thoughts per day.

Adam Dorsay  39:46  
That's a lot of thoughts. And the funny thing about our thoughts and the way we communicate ourselves is most of the communication that we have with ourselves today are pretty much the same we had yesterday and all of the days before, they're not. There's nothing new in this newspaper and.

Adam Dorsay  40:00  
Yeah. And when we lose our keys or our wallets, we may ask ourselves something like,

Adam Dorsay  40:08  
how could you be such an idiot? Or, if we want to go, you know, Chandler bin, could I be a bigger idiot? But what we do, what we what we're essentially doing, is we're looking at, I'm drawing on my forehead. It's almost as if there's a Google search bar in our forehead, and we're asking that question to ourselves, could I be a bigger idiot, or

Adam Dorsay  40:28  
how could I be such an idiot? And what we'll find is, well, we're not going to get any closer to the wallet or the keys,

Adam Dorsay  40:34  
but we will see an entire gag, role,

Adam Dorsay  40:39  
goof roll, whatever, whatever that role is a video that shows us doing stupid things with that throughout our lines. The time I failed that test, the time I made a fool of myself in front of that group, the person I shouldn't have dated, but did whatever it might be well, but it's not going to get us any closer to our keys. So how we communicate to ourselves is very important. Asking ourselves better questions in life is one of the most fundamental things we can do. Where did I see them last? Who else might not have seen them? Could I look at my calendar and look at where I've been?

Adam Dorsay  41:10  
I just actually, no joke, recently lost my wallet and realized based on my calendar, they were at the Taylors. And by the way, not John Taylor,

Adam Dorsay  41:23  
fantastic bass player, but they were the and I called the Taylor, and she said, Yeah, I have your wallet. And I thought, why did you call me? But that would have been nice you have my phone number, but she didn't, and she'd had it for a few days. And lo and behold, by asking myself a better question, where else might I be able to look to find my wallet? Was far better than asking myself, How can I be such an idiot? Also, similarly, when we ask questions of our family, I mean the classic one when we ask a child, how was your day? Vaughn, well, what was it like? Nothing.

Adam Dorsay  42:01  
Communication is a big deal. What if we communicated with our family by saying, every night for dinner when we're meeting up, we will discuss our Rose, our bud and our Thorn, what went well today and was rose, what we learned today, which was our bud, and by the way, very good for parents to show that they're still learning. In spite of the fact that they might have fancy degrees or have been out of school for some time, they're still learning. And the third one is what hurt kind of building our emotional quote, quote quotient, our EQs,

Adam Dorsay  42:35  
and that's another way of communicating, and we find out so much more about our children and ourselves when we communicate with better structures, and there are a host of ways that we can do that. Certainly, when we come home from work, we've been so well paid to look for problems all day, and what happens when we come home, we still look for problems. It's kind of like passing it's a small world at Disneyland, and you hear it's a small world, and you hear that for the rest of the day. The day, when we look for problems all day, we're still looking for problems at home, and maybe we need to think through like, what's going well here? What else is happening? In addition to the fact that the dishwasher wasn't emptied, what else is happening here? Oh, there's some beautiful music coming through. Ah, you know, the heat is on, and that's nice, and it was been a really cool day. There's so many ways that we can communicate. And how can I ask the person who was supposed to empty the dishwasher to please do it in a way that doesn't shame them, but also might get the job done, and might be illustrative, and please, when I ask you to get the dishwasher empty before I get home. It means get the dishwasher empty before I get home. Might there be an alarm that we can put on your phone so that we can make sure that this doesn't happen in the future? Communication is a big deal, and if we could go around with a blue pen and ask ourselves, Am I communicating this in a way that will be effective and kind I think one of the things as well that you brought up around communication that I was really excited to see, because nobody I've ever mentioned this book to have has ever heard of it. And there it was in your book. I was like, yes, somebody else knows about this book. So I think, I think this is Gary Chapman, and he's, he's, he's love languages. So I came across this a number of years ago. Somebody recommended it to me, and it was a light bulb moment, and made me reflect on the way that had been communicated, not necessarily verbally, in relationships. So for those who aren't familiar with love languages, can you say a little bit about them and why they're important for for connection with your, you know your your close partners, absolutely. Just yesterday, I was having a conversation with my mom, who was saying that so many people go through this life with an illusion that the way they want to be treated is the way everybody wants to be treated, and what they like everybody.

Adam Dorsay  45:00  
Else should like, and that is so incredibly

Adam Dorsay  45:05  
off point. It's not even funny. All you need to do is go to an ice cream shop and you'll see various people wearing different types of ice cream. All you do is drive down the road. People chose different cars or chose different partners were different. And similarly, the way you feel loved might be quite different from the way I feel loved.

Adam Dorsay  45:23  
You might really love quality time, and I might really love words of affirmation. So what I'll do is I will tell you how awesome you are, and leave the room, and you'll be like, and I'll think, wow, I really crushed it. I told her how awesome she was and she's saying, what I really want is just to hang to some quality time. And this is not just for our romantic partners. This is for our friends as well. And if your love language is quality time, I just say, hey, Mel, you rule, and I leave the room and I haven't given you what you really want, which is quality time. But I wouldn't know that, because I'm doing the golden rule, I'm giving to you what I would want given to me,

Adam Dorsay  46:04  
Do unto others as they want done to them. The Platinum Rule is what Gary Chapman talks about, and that is due unto others and as they want done to them.

Adam Dorsay  46:13  
He identified five basic love languages, and it's kind of big in the United States, which is really cool, but could be acts of service, like doing something for someone else. That's it could be quality time, as I mentioned. It could be words of affirmation. It could be physical touch, and it could be gifts. I think I'm in I think I've named them all, and very often, we marry somebody whose love language is different from our own. My love language and my wife's love language are not the same. So one of the things I must do is remember that the way I feel loved is not exactly the way she feels loved. If I really want to crush it and give her what she wants, I will lean into her love language, and she is very mindful to do the same with me, and that is what fills our cups. There has been some research that slightly negates Gary Chapman's work, suggesting that all of us have, to some degree, all five much of the time. But I have found his work exceedingly useful in my practice. When when couples are feeling disconnected, one of the first places I go is to this resource. And I'm so grateful to I believe he's a pastor, Gary Chapman, as well as a counselor of some kind. He's He's amazing, and I think that's a really great gift to to the to humanity. Frankly, yeah, I felt the same. And I thoroughly recommend his book as well. Just as a as an aside, we're obviously talking about yours, Adam, but just as an aside that is also there are, as it turns out, there are other books, and I will not feel diminished around the books. Oh, who knew? Who knew? So that's, that's one of the subplots that I picked out through, through um, super psyched, and another one that I picked up on, um, is the connection between our emotions and our physical state. So I'm slightly obsessed with this topic. You reference the work of Van der Kolk and his book, The Body Keeps the Score. And I'm also a big fan of Gabor Mate and his book, when the body says no, and the work of Louise Hay. But for those not familiar with the relationship between our emotions and our emotional state and our physical state. Can you explain a little bit more about what you're bringing out in the book? Absolutely. So I would be so fascinated. And we've done this in a large room. You can say something like,

Unknown Speaker  48:38  
I'm so

Unknown Speaker  48:40  
so sad right now, and what you ask the other person to do is to push down on your hands to see how strong you are, how much you can resist when you're feeling sad. Now, sadness is a legitimate thing, but it will conjure up other things. Now, if we're if we are actually sad and we're pretending to be something that we're not feeling,

Unknown Speaker  49:02  
we will also know, on some level, there's some little there's some referee inside of our head saying, Bs, this is not true,

Unknown Speaker  49:11  
and we become weaker. But one of the things that we want to do is be a, you know, first of all, and if we, if we, if we are actually feeling empowered, we say, I'm really psyched. And you actually are,

Unknown Speaker  49:22  
you will actually be stronger, but when we try to repress our emotions, so many things can happen physiologically.

Adam Dorsay  49:31  
We can actually our immune systems can go down. We are more prone to colds. We might not be able to sleep. Our autonomic nervous system may respond, and we could have back pain. A lot of people, when they're feeling grief, but not really attending to the grief, have physiological symptoms, and it goes down the list in terms of the way we the term, fancy term, is somaticized. The way we somaticize can even cause for us. God.

Adam Dorsay  50:00  
Is erectile dysfunction. And when I, when I, when I read that one that this particular not not minding your emotions, could cause this, it really opens the eyes of the guys in the room that just cut right through the chase. I gave a TEDx talk on men and emotions. It's called emotions, the data men miss. And many people you know believe that the only thing that really matters is our intellect and the way we think, but actually how we feel matters, and how we relate to how we feel will result in various physiological states we're far. So it behooves us when we are feeling grief, just like they talk about in that movie, inside out and inside out too. We need to pay attention to those emotions. You have to feel it to heal it. Is kind of the corny phrase, but it's so scientifically accurate that I'll use it. We have to feel it to heal it. You have to name it to tame it. These, these rhyming things that we hear, and they're brilliant, even if they're considered cliche, yeah, and it's interesting that obviously, in the context of super psyched, we're talking about

Adam Dorsay  51:07  
the connection between emotions and the body and and how that affects our connections. But of course, it also fits into the work that I do as a coach, helping people to find purpose, and if you're not aligned with your purpose, even if you don't consciously know it, your body does and and it will tell you, and it might start whispering, going, Hey, I don't think, I don't think you're in the right place. You might need to think about doing something else. And if you don't listen, it gets louder and louder and louder, and then some really quite drastic things can happen. And I know we haven't really talked about your background much yet, and we could, we could fill a whole other podcast with all sorts of conversations, but I just want to touch on this one, because you came late to psychotherapy or later, I should say,

Unknown Speaker  51:58  
yeah, there was, there was an incident, wasn't there with you, where your body really sort of smacked you in the face and said, Come on, Adam, this is not where you need to be 100%

Unknown Speaker  52:11  
Yeah, I was working in a corporation. I had left graduate school at least once, and I ended up marrying a psychologist, so I heard about her day every day, and thinking to myself, that should have been my day. And so here I am working the corporate

Unknown Speaker  52:28  
job,

Unknown Speaker  52:30  
thinking to myself, Wow, I have a brand new baby boy, and how will I ever tell him that I love my work? How will I ever tell him that work can provide strength and joy, because I wasn't feeling sufficient strength and joy from that particular job,

Unknown Speaker  52:46  
and my body decided at 3am to wake me up and give me what felt like a heart attack. Except those of you who are listening probably have guessed it wasn't a heart attack, it was a panic attack,

Unknown Speaker  53:00  
panic attack, and most is an anxiety based response, and all anxiety, one of the things that shares in common is

Unknown Speaker  53:11  
there are many factors to anxiety, but one of them can be avoidance.

Unknown Speaker  53:16  
The more we avoid a thing, the more the anxiety tends to grow, the more we run towards that thing and deal with it through exposure, exposure therapy, of micro exposures of our own, the more the anxiety tends to go down. So I go to the ER, they check me out, give me an EKG. They find that my heart is fine, thank God. And they say, you have had a panic attack, and that was for me, not listening. It was more convenient for me to stay in the job. I felt like I had too many encumbrances to leave the job. And the fact was, I could leave the job. It was very inconvenient. It meant studying at night and weekends and giving up a lot of things. It also meant working for 3000 hours at $10 an hour with no benefits in order to get my clinical hours for licensure.

Unknown Speaker  54:06  
And my wife said to me something that often can almost bring tears to my eyes. She said, I'd rather have a happy husband than a rich one, and she had my back the entire not once did she gripe about the fact that we our finances for a period of time were very, very tight, or that I wasn't around for certain things? She had my back the entire way I realized I won the lottery. I married ridiculously well, and by the way, I also listened to my emotions and my thoughts. I, in fact, just just a quick little thing that I have. It's, it's a work in progress, but I think that when choosing a mate,

Unknown Speaker  54:48  
we need to think from our head and work our way down to our heart and further down south, which I'm not going to get into for this podcast. But suffice it to say, all three.

Unknown Speaker  55:00  
You must agree, but I would recommend that sequence be thoughtful about who you marry and when a person shows you who they are, as Maya Angelou says, Believe them the first time, don't try to engage in hope as a strategy. Oh, it might change. It might change. I can heal them. I can rescue I can sing of the day. No, no, you can't,

Unknown Speaker  55:21  
not, not, not very often anyway, I wouldn't, I wouldn't take the risk believe who they are the first time anyway, I realized that's not exactly the question. I did.

Unknown Speaker  55:30  
I went for it, and

Unknown Speaker  55:33  
I'm told I was one of the fastest and hardest workers ever seen, just in terms of going from zero to licensure, I wanted it so badly. It was I felt like a dog who'd been sitting at the door for 10 years waiting to go for a walk, and finally, finally, my person said we're going for a walk. And can you imagine how excited the dog would be. That was me becoming a psychologist, and I still feel the same way. Oh, brilliant. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's it's so important for us to hear how people make that transition from from the treadmill life, the life that so many of us have spent time thinking we should be doing and for whatever reason, we feel like we may have made our bed and we have to lie in it, and then that's exactly was my mantra. I made my bed. I need to sleep in it. I thought I was such I thought it was such a I thought it was so manly.

Unknown Speaker  56:27  
Something, yeah, this we think there's something heroic about that isn't there. And then I absolutely did think it was heroic. And then we get on the other side and go, Oh my god. Why the hell did I spend so long doing that? But so it's great to hear these stories where people make that transition and they and they move into what becomes their their life with purpose. So So with that in mind, let's loop back to super psyched. And for anyone who is looking to improve their sense of purpose, to find the life that they love, do you just want to summarize why your book is a must read for those people be happy to I think that through this book, I don't tell you what to do, but I tell you where to consider looking to find your truth, where you will be able to collect on this kind of scavenger hunt called life, where to find your aliveness, the definition I came up with through working with several other mental health practitioners and trying to come up with a working definition for connection itself, I spent two pages describing it, but it's what makes us come alive. And I can tell you, Mel, that the second I met you. I mean, your contagious enthusiasm, your smile, your kindness, your countenance, made me feel like, oh, I came alive. I mean, that would, that cannot be faked. And by the way, super psyched is not peddling toxic positivity. I'm not looking for people to Hey, but just feel happy when you're sad. Turn that frown upside down. That does not work. No, you gotta. You gotta be wherever you are. In fact, super psyched, in a very sophisticated manner, is supposed to mean super connected to our psyches. In addition to feeling super psyched to meet Mel, which is, which is real, both are true, but we need to be connected to our psyches. And if I was to be told the only way to be a cultured male is to enjoy a six hour Wagnerian opera, that would be a pretty tall climb. I might be able to get there, and maybe there would be something virtuous there for me, but it would not be organic and and I'm not suggesting that everything has to be easy and organic. Perhaps someday I will enjoy a six hour fight theory and opera. Perhaps if I took a course on how to appreciate it, I might actually come to love it. You know, we we can acquire tastes, but we also have some evidence. I got this. This is just a side note from Dr Rachel hers, who teaches at Brown medical school. She wrote a book called That's disgusting. If we find something truly disgusting, like I will never, ever, ever come to love liver or chop liver. I mean, just the mere mention of it makes me feel like puking. Yep, I'm with you with that. And she said, you know, if you find something oppressively disgusting, and I'm using my own words, you will never come to like it. I don't feel that way about binary and offer. So there might be, there might be, there might be some salvation there at some point, but I'm not going to investigate my heart beats in that. Instead, I'm going to really go with what I know works, even if it's inconvenient. And I've even come up with an acronym

Unknown Speaker  59:43  
based on positive psychological research that can guide us towards our formula. The one I came up with is feed, F, E, E, D. Does it provide us with flow? Mihaly cheek sent me high. Was the researcher on flow? Do you.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:00  
Find yourself lost in it. Do you lose yourself to borrow from Eminem? Do you lose yourself in this thing?

Unknown Speaker  1:00:07  
Does three hours of it feel like one hour? Are we challenged? The second one is energy. Energize. Does it require energy from you and give energy back to you? Anybody who does a marathon, a century bike ride, a hard climb, will say, yeah, it took a lot of energy, but man, when I got in the car, I felt good. I was juiced. Yeah, I was totally exhausted, and I probably couldn't move an inch, but I was stoked. That's what I'm talking about here. It doesn't have to be as extreme as that. It could just be. I felt energized from hanging out with Bob. Third one is educate. I wanted to use word edify, but my publisher said it too big a word. So does it? Does it? Does it move the needle? Are you? Are you becoming smarter in an area?

Unknown Speaker  1:00:52  
Are are you learning more as you do this thing? And the fourth is depth. Is it meaningful? Michael Mead once told me that we are not just Homo sapiens. We are homo symbolic us meaning. We are creatures that search out meaning. You and I love being podcasters. It's meaningful. It doesn't take from us. It sure requires some energy, but it gives us so much energy back. And I would surmise, melon, I hope you feel this way afterwards, but I know that when you want to hang up, I'm gonna be like, Wow, that was great. My driveway test is gonna be like, very, very happy. You know, tail wagging, you know, dog like,

Unknown Speaker  1:01:34  
that's what we're looking for. Can we get that? Because life is too precious not to experience that. And my book aims to be something of a Sherpa or a midwife for people to find their sparkle amazing. Well, I can absolutely concur that, super psyched. The book definitely is a feeder, not the type that feeds you all the food that is bad for you, but definitely the type that feeds you, things that will nourish your soul help you grow thought provoking, give you lots of tips and advice on how to develop those connections and live the life that you love. So Adam, thank you so much for joining me on the life with purpose podcast. I wish you all the best with the rest of your book tour. And I thank you so much for sharing your experience, your stories, your expertise, your musical anecdotes, your movie anecdotes and your humor with it. Mel, it has been such a blast. Just promise me a pint when I arrive in Devon. Absolutely, it's a deal. Thank you so much. You if you're listening to this message, you've listened to the entire episode. Thank you so much. And thank you to Mike from making digital real for continuing to produce these episodes. If you'd like to know more about life with purpose and coaching sessions with me, then head over to Mel harrowsmith coaching.com and get in touch. You can also subscribe to my newsletter for updates, advice, guidance and all things relating to life with purpose. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you did, then you might like to send me a review or share this episode with others who may be interested in this topic. Thank you so much again for listening, and I'll see you next time for a new episode. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai