TINAH Talks | Mental Health and Wellbeing Podcast

36. Why Winter Makes You SAD: Seasonal Affective Disorder Explained by Therapist Gil Lalli

• TINAH • Season 1 • Episode 36

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This week on the Tinah Talks podcast we are joined by solution focused therapist, Gin Lalli delving into the topic of seasonal depression also known as SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder)

SAD typically effects people in winter when days are shorter and exposure to daylight is reduced. Gin, explains the differences between seasonal affective disorder and regular depression, emphasizing the importance of reframing our mindset towards seasonal changes. 

You’ll learn to spot the symptoms of SAD and some practical preventative measures to combat seasonal depression, including maintaining routines, staying active, and embracing the cozy aspects of winter. 

Gin also has an amazing podcast for you to check out here: https://ginlalli.com/podcast/

and you can connect with Gin on Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/ginlallisft

About The TINAH Talks Podcast: TINAH (Time Is Not a Healer) is your go-to mental well-being marketplace and community! In this podcast, you can expect empowering conversations to support you in your mental health healing journey.

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Kelsey (00:01)
Welcome back to another Tinah Talks episode. I'm your host Kelsey and today we have a guest. Her name is Gin Lalli and welcome to the show. It's nice to have you here.

Gin Lalli (00:13)
Thank you so much for inviting me, Kelsey. I'm really looking forward to our chat today.

Kelsey (00:17)
Yeah, me too. Well before we jump in and get started, can you just give our audience a little idea about who you are, where you are, what you do, and then we can hop into the topic today about seasonal depression.

Gin Lalli (00:29)
I'm a solution focused therapist. specialize in anxiety and stress and depression. I'm based in the UK. I'm based in Scotland, actually in Edinburgh. And I love it here. I'm also an author. So I've written a book and I've got my own podcast as well. So I'm all about the mental health space, but I'm very much in the solution focused genre, which I'm sure we'll come and talk about in a little bit.

Kelsey (00:55)
yeah, no, I'm, we had a little chat beforehand. I'm all about that solution-focused kind of based therapy. It was actually what I was going to specialize in had I continued down the road. Yeah, cause I love it. And for all your information and things you're sharing, your podcast, your book, all that stuff, for everybody, we'll be sharing that in the show notes. So that'll be there for you guys if you want it. So yeah, so today we're talking all about seasonal depression, which I don't know.

Gin Lalli (01:04)
Bye.

Kelsey (01:23)
I think everyone knows what it is, but do they really know what it is? And like, can we prevent it and how do we handle it and all the different solutions that are out there? Cause we know there's quite a bit around awareness already with mental health and like what's, what's accessible for people in tor in terms of resources. So yeah, from a therapeutic point of view, how would you go about describing seasonal depression?

Gin Lalli (01:49)
seasonal depression is exactly what it says on the tin. It's a type of depression that is affected by the seasons. Sometimes it's known as winter depression. I think that might be a better way to describe it because it really is to do with a light level. So this feeling of low mood, low energy, no motivation, in particular when the light levels go down in winter, especially if you're in the extremes of the Northern Hemisphere. Right now, we're in October. In the UK, the clock's just

Kelsey (01:57)
Thank you.

Gin Lalli (02:18)
went back this weekend. So it's something that people are really feeling. So it can get dark and Scotland in particular as well can get dark sometimes at 4.30 in the afternoon. And if you've got a gray day as well, so you don't feel like you're getting any sunshine at all. sometimes known as seasonal affective disorder as well or seasonal affective depression.

Kelsey (02:20)
Mm-hmm.

I'm so full.

Yeah, no, I didn't realize 430. I mean, I guess when I think about it, now that I'm back in Chicago, right now, I don't think our clocks have changed yet, but it's getting dark now at I think 6, 630 quite early. And then I think once the clocks change, it's gonna be even earlier. And Chicago during the winter can be quite gray. We've had really mild winters, but it gets just really gloomy and gray. And then it's cold, which is like,

even more so that kind of you get cooped up in the house, you don't want to go out and you don't want to do things and it can be really unenjoyable. I myself am prone to regular depression and so I'm always fearful of seasonal affective depression just because it's another variation that can like lead into a more full on depressive episode. Do you have any kind of differentiation between regular depression like major depressive episodes versus

Gin Lalli (03:16)
Yeah.

Kelsey (03:41)
Seasonal depression or how would you describe the difference between the two and like how how does a seasonal depression affect regular depression?

Gin Lalli (03:48)
I think regular clinical depression, people know when they have that. Now, one of my bug bears is when people say, they've got SAD and it's a bit of low mood during winter. We all might feel it that we don't like winter. So be very careful. We need to be careful how we use that seasonal depression phrase. It's not as common as we are making out. So it's lovely to use that phrase.

Kelsey (03:52)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Gin Lalli (04:16)
Clinical depression can occur at any time, longer bouts of it as well. it's the whole, you find no joy in doing the things you usually find joy in doing. But if that goes on for a long time, you feel it. Now with winter depression or seasonal depression, you will find come spring in particular, you start to feel a little bit better. There's a definite pattern. You can almost see with the season what the reason is for it. When someone has clinical depression,

Kelsey (04:39)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (04:44)
it depression, it's almost like there's no reason. It can occur out of the blue. You can feel that it just wipes you out. You've been doing really, really well and all of a sudden there it is, it'll come along again. And it will go sometimes just as quickly or you do need to see a therapist again. But there's no specific pattern with someone who is prone to depression. Whereas with seasonal depression, you can definitely start to feel it as the light levels go down.

Kelsey (04:55)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (05:12)
And then you feel it lifting as the light levels come back up again.

Kelsey (05:16)
Yeah, yeah, the light lights have a big, big effect with the seasonal effect of depression. I know like, what would you say are some of you've mentioned like one or two like low, low mood, what would you say some of the signs and symptoms of SAD typically are? I mean, I know for me, it's like low mood, really low energy, I get like more sluggish, constant fatigue, would say.

Gin Lalli (05:42)
That's right. Yeah. So they're the starting points. We want to withdraw socially. So you don't want to really mix with people. That's part of that. It's almost like a hibernation and that's through evolution. That's what we're actually doing. We crave carbs more as well. That's a big one. So sometimes people say even the side effects symptom weight gain as well. And then consequently we're not moving very much because we've got no motivation. A constant tiredness, constantly tired.

Kelsey (05:49)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (06:12)
You know, and that definition of depression, you cannot find joy in the things you usually find joy in. The joy just goes. lot of procrastination and sleepiness. Feel very sleepy, not just tired, sleepy all day.

Kelsey (06:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

You know, and I know this is not the best like equivalency, but like this sounds like what I go through once a month with my p- Like, I get a little bit of S.A.D. every time I have my PMS, right? I get sleepy and I don't necessarily lose joy in things. It's more so I get angry at things and like, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gin Lalli (06:36)
Yes! Yeah, yeah it is!

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But that's a woman's season, right? So a month is a woman's season. So in that particular season, yeah, it's exactly the same feeling. So there, we're coming back to that word, season. So cycle, some sort of cycle.

Kelsey (06:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, and you know when you think about it in this way, because I know for me, right, I'm going to use myself as an example and I think other people might feel similarly, right, I've had major depressive episodes that came off the back of life triggers, someone passing, big things, big changes, upheavals had happened and I had struggled with moderate depression for a long time but then I'd hit a major depressive episode because of that and so I'm always worried that,

when the season changes, right, winter comes, I'm naturally going to go into that hibernation and that lower mood. And so I'm worried about, my God, is this actually going to put me, am I going to end up going into a major depressive episode just because I'm prone to that? But I think when we think about it in terms of season and like hibernation doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. I, you know, as I've gotten older, I'm 33 and I

I started to notice that there are periods where it's like, no, I want to slow down. And we actually did a whole episode on the seasons of life, maybe a couple of weeks ago about this and what to do for the different seasons. And I think even having that mindset switch coming into a period of time when there could be that winter depression, that season depression, for me, I think it's helpful to think about it like, no, this is a hibernation that my mind, my body needs after like a...

crazy fun, hectic summer or, you know, right? Like it's something to shift into and slow down a little bit. Do you see that being like beneficial having that kind of shifted frame of mind around it?

Gin Lalli (08:38)
Absolutely. Yeah. What you've done there, Kelsey, is you've reframed. So you're reframing it. We can look at, you know, the negatives of it, but why not look at the positive? Now, the season, we cannot control the season. It's going to change. We cannot control the weather. So what can we control? This is a time of year where, I mean, trees, let's use trees as an example. They give us a great example. Nature often does. The trees shed their leaves almost quite happily.

They have this acceptance that the leaves are going to go brown, beautiful color, they're going to shed because that's it. That's the summer part over, but now we're getting ready for a renewal. We've got to go through this process. Yeah, let's reframe it too. It's hot chocolates. It's sitting in watching films. It's reading more. It's doing indoor crafting because we can't go out so much. You've perfectly reframed it and that is the way to cope with this.

Kelsey (09:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (09:38)
That's what you're saying that you were worrying that because you're prone to depression, well, seasonal, with the season changing, is it going to make you go even worse? Well, don't expect that. Don't start predicting it straight away. That, right, that's what's going to happen if that's what you're worried about. If you can reframe it in that, okay, so I am going to stock up on my books and I've got to start my indoor crafting and I'm going to get all the hot chocolate in and...

Kelsey (09:53)
Yeah.

Gin Lalli (10:05)
Yes, I was talking saying that, we crave carbs and, those kinds of foods, but they are winter foods. If you look at, know, that's when potatoes and cauliflowers and all those kinds of things come into season. And so it is that time of year to eat those things, to eat pies and stews and comfort food and soups. You know, that kind of nutrition our body wants. And that's part of evolution and part of the seasons changing. millions and millions of years ago.

We would have maybe even hibernated. So we're going into a semi hibernation. It's just that now in modern day times, we have things like electricity and fridges and TV. And so there's other things, but we can't expect to maybe be running at the same pace we did at the beautiful height of summer when we're all out swimming and running and exercising and doing all those lovely things and being outdoors. It is a seasonal change and it's about accepting that as well. I know that might sound really difficult.

Kelsey (11:02)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (11:05)
If we're talking to people here who have got seasonal depression, but it really is, if you can create that mindset shift, just like you did, like you said just then, you reframed it. It really takes away the stress.

Kelsey (11:14)
in it.

Yeah, well, to just piggyback off of that is, right, I think it took me a long time to get to that shift of like, I would actually say maybe this year is the first year in a while I really actively had to reset. Last year, my mom had passed, so like I was already in a not so great place by the time winter came, and so just, was what it was. And then.

Prior to that, I've been traveling all over the world, so I've been avoiding winters and I haven't really had to think about it. This year, with fall coming, I was pumped. I was like, am ready for hibernation, to slow down, and of course my wife is like, we're going to Columbia for it's our friend's birthday, and so now we're here back in spring weather. But prior to all this, prior when I had to really think about, winter is coming kind of deal, I...

Gin Lalli (11:58)
Yeah.

Kelsey (12:13)
would prepare in other ways. If I wasn't quite ready to make that mindset shift, right? I want the hibernation, I'm ready for this. I would do things like I would get myself a satellite. So I would have that first thing in the morning, which if people aren't familiar with, I think in the industry, we call them satellites, but on like the general market, they're happy lights because that's the purpose of it, right? Being that the sun doesn't come out for some people at all.

Gin Lalli (12:31)
Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Kelsey (12:42)
but very, very late in the day to wake up and like kind of kick in the normal circadian rhythm. We need sunshine on our eyeballs. And I do that during the summer. wake up, I go outside, I sit on my porch for five minutes and I kind of get that going. But when I don't have it during the winter, I notice it and it's harder for me to like wake up and that's where all that sluggishness and all that comes from. And so to preemptively, right? I'm not ready in the mind frame, like the mindset yet.

I would get my satellite. I'd also, and I would do that for the first like 10 minutes, 15 minutes in the morning. And I was really, really adamant about, I have to make sure that I'm going outside for a walk, even if the weather is cold. If it's raining, yeah, if it's raining, okay, fine, I can skip a day, but I'd have to walk at least a little bit outside and then I'd have to do some sort of body movement inside. Otherwise I start to get like really stagnant and I couldn't get out of it. And so are there any other like,

Gin Lalli (13:22)
Right. Yep. Move.

Kelsey (13:39)
I don't want say, because they're coping mechanisms, they are coping mechanisms, but preventative measures that you recommend in terms of like, okay, we know winter is coming, Game of Thrones reference, and so, winter is coming. What do we do to prepare if we are worried about what might come with it? And we're not quite in that mindset of like, yes, we're ready to hybrid.

Gin Lalli (14:02)
Okay. Well, first of all, you've done the right things and you started off on a really good basis. The mindset shift doesn't just come. You've got to take action first. So there's no point in just sitting there waiting for you yourself to change your mind about winter. So what you've done is right. You've got yourself that light. You know, you're definitely going to get that light in your eyes first thing in morning. You are going to move. So in anything in life, know, mindset shift doesn't just occur.

action first, then the mindset shifts. People need to understand that. So please understand that first. yeah, routine, what you described, there was a routine, you have a routine at that time, I'm going to do that with my light. Now, even natural daylight has got a lot of UV. So even we were talking about the gloomy days we have like in Chicago and here in Edinburgh as well. There's still a lot of UV about, okay, it might not be sunny.

Kelsey (14:55)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (14:59)
but it is that it's still bright enough to get a lot of UV into your eyes. So do not underestimate that before you go out and buy your happy lamp. Do not underestimate there is still light. And then our indoor lights, like I said, we've evolved, we have electricity, put the lights on, start your day as you would normally put the lights on, get going as you would normally. You've got to try and now create that shift in your day by using modern technology.

Kelsey (15:06)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (15:26)
So we've got all this access to modern technology. So keep with your routine is really important. Move, which you've said as well. We've got to maybe plan our outdoor time. Now, this is in particular, you know, for women, which is still a shame to say, but you know, like if you like to go for a run after work and now it's dark, maybe you're going to have to go for a run at lunchtime instead, just for safety. You know, so we've got to maybe plan our day differently now.

to say, it's not light, it's not by the time I finish work, it's not light. So what can I do? Well, maybe I can go at lunchtime, maybe I can go earlier in the day. So we've got to adapt to that as well. Stay active. Whatever you do, stay active as well. Start, like I said, reframing, get your recipes in, get your foods in, get the films and the books. And one of the biggest ones, obviously, I'm going to say this, is managing your mindset from a stress management point of view.

Kelsey (15:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Gin Lalli (16:22)
If you are naturally stressed with life anyway, so lots of things going on, looking after the kids, really busy job, and then you add on top of that, that the light levels are going down and now you can't go out for a run after work, which was your stress reliever. Well, then we need to manage the stress and anxiety in general as well, because we're just going to compound it. And like I said, we cannot control the weather, we cannot control the seasons.

Kelsey (16:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Gin Lalli (16:50)
So we've got to be able to control ourselves and our reaction to it.

Kelsey (16:55)
Yeah, gosh, I love that. that's, I think when I, some of our listeners have heard, I left to go do some travels for a long period of time. And I had had some major depressive episodes. And when I left, was in a stable place, but I knew, and I was on an antidepressant. And I knew I wanted to come off the antidepressant in my...

My doctor at first was like, okay, let's not take you off of it now. You're about to go across the world by yourself. You have no community, you have no support. It's not the right time. And so I was like, great. He gave me a prescription for a year. And so I went out there and I knew by the end of the year that I was gonna be weaning myself off of my antidepressant. And this was with the help of my doctor. So don't recommend to do that by yourselves guys. Definitely talk to your provider. But I was so adamant and this makes me think the same thing about like leading into seasonal depression. I was so adamant

Gin Lalli (17:43)
That's right.

Kelsey (17:52)
the routines and the coping mechanisms already in place before I was off the antidepressant so that it would make me a little more resilient in case life happened, things happen, or my body's natural reset went down the slope a little bit. And it really helped in terms of making me feel better. And then the second thing, which I think comes with the mindset of what you're talking about, and I know it's very like Instagram, girly, whatever, but...

Gin Lalli (17:59)
Yeah.

That's right.

Kelsey (18:22)
romanticizing my life, right? Like you said, cozy up with a little book. Get a book, put a fake fireplace on your TV. Or I've fallen deep into the fantasy world of books right now. there's all these graphics that they have on YouTube and I'll put the fantasy world of Hilarious on the TV and I'll be reading my fantasy book. And it kind of just gives you a little bit more of that uplifting lightness that you need.

Gin Lalli (18:31)
Yeah, yeah.

Yep. Yeah.

Kelsey (18:51)
I think when times are dark, right? And that's what comes with the season.

Gin Lalli (18:53)
Yeah. Yeah. Again, good reframing. So first of all, what you're saying there is because you love the routine, because the brain loves routine. Our brains love routine. What happens when the light level changes, it feels like it's going to disrupt our routine. And it is because we have to change sometimes the way we do things or if things feel a little bit different. But so what we need to do is plan ahead and get that routine done. What that does is it gives us a sense of control.

Kelsey (19:04)
Yes.

Hmm.

Gin Lalli (19:22)
You're looking for control. So when you did that planning, you were looking at everything you could control. So you didn't know what was going to happen to the way you feel once you wind yourself and you were going to come off your undie depressants. But there was lots of things you could control. You knew where you were going to be, how were you going to do this? And what we really need to remember with things like winter depression is if you look at the Scandinavian countries, they have in some northern parts of Norway, they have one, two hours of light.

in a 24 hour cycle. However, the Scandinavian countries have got the lowest incidence of seasonal depression. it's, yeah. So it's something that, you know, can be, that's where we need to be looking for our solutions. And what they do is exactly what we've been talking about. They really believe in adapting to their environment. This is when they go skiing, they love the cozy fires, that this is their season to do all those things.

Kelsey (19:59)
They're like the hap, one of the happiest countries according to studies,

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (20:20)
They make sure, you know, even during the summer, they're making sure they're getting all their logs in ready for winter. And they accept that it is, I mean, it's like 10 foot of snow you can get. They can't even go out. So they know they need to be prepared. It's just part of what they do. It's part of life. And if we try and embrace that into our life, somehow, anyhow, whatever way suits you, there's no hard or fast rules here. So like you were saying, Kelsey, this is what you like to do. Hopefully we're giving people ideas.

Kelsey (20:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (20:49)
But we're not saying do this and you will feel better. What we're saying is these are kind of our ideas, but you need to find something that will make you feel better. So if you don't like reading, what else do you like doing? Some sort of craft. know, everyone's into knitting over here at the minutes. Everyone's knitting and crocheting and we're getting into all those lovely crafty things. You know, we're doing all of those. Baking. You know, we might not bake so much in the summer because it's too hot. So yeah, we're going to start baking things.

Kelsey (20:52)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

you

Gin Lalli (21:19)
We've got to still find purpose and a lot of people, especially if you're quite an outdoorsy active person, you feel that your purpose gets lost in winter because you can't do those things. Well, you need to be a fully rounded person. You need to make sure you've got things that you can do otherwise. But like I said, if you are still outdoorsy, how are you going to adapt your routine to fit it in? So are you going to fit it in, like I said, in lunchtimes or daytimes or weekends more?

Kelsey (21:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (21:47)
days off, you have to make a more concerted effort to change your routine a little bit, but then get into a new routine for winter. That's all.

Kelsey (21:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I love that. And you just made me think about when I was right. So I'm from the Midwest originally, and then I am originally from outside Chicago. So we it's cold. have winter, winter, pretty bad winter. Sometimes it's been mild, lately, you go up to Wisconsin, which I lived up there for a long time. It's where I started my field of work. It's even worse winter. And I remember in college, you you're still we're wearing little mini skirts and boots out and it's like,

know, cold as shit, you're just out there doing it. And I find myself, and I think this was the start of my mindset shift. It was like, you know, winter, it's now winter, it's cold. And if you dress appropriately for the weather, it's not that bad. It's a little planning preparation.

Gin Lalli (22:34)
Not that bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what the Norwegian say. There's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes. So yeah. So you wear the right clothes. You're fine. Yes. Yeah. So, that's where, yeah, winter wear. That's where you go. You go to Scandinavia to buy your winter wear or, you know, places like Chicago, there'll be specialist stores that will have the right boots, the right waterproofs, all those things.

Kelsey (22:44)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they've got some great, they got some great brands.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (23:03)
to be able to make you more comfortable because the season is going to change.

Kelsey (23:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100%. No, I love this. And so I kind of want to flip it a little bit. So let's just say, because you come from a solution-focused area, and let's just say someone hasn't necessarily done the work to prepare themselves for winter and maybe seasonal depression is setting in, or we're just at a place that we have, we're not feeling good, and now winter is here and it's not making us feel better. With your background and coming from solution-focused approach, typically,

Well, I mean, give us a little more background around solution-focused therapy and then we can talk about it in that context. Because I'm for it. I think it's an amazing approach in psychology and more people need to be educated on it.

Gin Lalli (23:50)
Yeah, obviously I love it and it's very much my mindset as well as on a personal level, as well as a professional level. So when I was researching the different types of therapies I wanted to train in, solution focus work just spoke to me. First of all, it's all very science-based that this is how the brain works. So in solution focus work, what we do is we focus on solutions. Now by solutions, I don't mean that you have the answer every time, but what we do is we focus on the good stuff, the good stuff where you are now.

Kelsey (24:05)
business.

Gin Lalli (24:19)
and where you want to be going forward. Everybody's got a story, Kelsey. Everybody's got a history. We've all got something. Now, if we look at incidences of anxiety or depression, if we did studies on this, there is no pattern to say that some people have a certain demographic that go through a certain type of trauma will all end up with depression. There's some people who have had lots of trauma who do really well, other people who have some trauma and they are falling apart at the seams.

Kelsey (24:22)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (24:49)
There's just no pattern here. And in science, we always look for patterns. But you've got to remember that that is how the brain works. The brain will accept that you've got a story. But if you want to feel better, for me, I strongly believe that you don't need to go into your past and start picking away and examining the trauma from years and years ago to help you feel better now. So by solution focused, I don't mean we're problem phobic.

Kelsey (24:50)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (25:20)
I don't mean that we're not going to stick, we just want to ignore the problem. What we're saying is we accept the problem, you're surviving, you've got to this story where you are now, now where do you want to go from here? So the questioning that we do in solution focus work is very much based on what small differences would happen tomorrow, very, very small, steps in the right direction, which direction are we going in? With the way you're feeling now, whoever you are now with your history, where are you now and where do you want to be going forward?

Kelsey (25:30)
Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (25:48)
That's what we do in solution focus work. And like I said, it doesn't mean that you know what the solution is, but you need to be at this point where you say, I don't want this problem anymore. I don't want to feel anxious anymore. I don't want panic attacks anymore. I don't want to feel depressed anymore. I don't want this fear. And a lot of the time people know where it's come from. Human beings are very intelligent.

As a person, if you're listening to this podcast now, I want to say is you know what your problem is. You don't need to examine it. Me as a therapist will never know you well enough to try and say what that problem is. If you've been speaking to your mum or your sister or your best friend, if they haven't been able to help you, a therapist like me might not be able to either. So you've talked about the problem. You've gone over the problem.

My job as a therapist to make you feel better. That's the definition of therapy. And so the brain will focus on what you think about. So if you're thinking about anxiety and depression and panic attacks, that's where you're putting all your thoughts and that's all you're thinking about. Whereas if you're thinking about being calm and happy and motivated maybe, or courageous, whatever words you want to use that apply to you, that's what you'll be thinking about.

So it's in sessions with me, I kind of call it brain training. I'm training your brain to step away from that fight or flight or freeze response and say, look, everything's fine. I'm very safe right now where I am. Nothing's gone wrong. And what is it that I want to do to feel better? What is that picture? Nevermind how I should do it, because we'll often say in Solution Focus, if you knew how to do it, you wouldn't be seen a therapist.

Kelsey (27:22)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (27:40)
So what we do is we skip that step and we say, right, what if you were feeling a little bit better, what would you do? What's that picture? Let's just use our imagination. You've spent your imagination reliving the problem, let's start reliving some nicer times. Start imagining them, putting them in your imagination. So that's the premise of solution focus work. And so that's why, you know, some of the hints and tips I was giving, I was giving worse solution focus. Let's reframe this season.

Kelsey (27:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (28:08)
What can you do? What is in your control? We know what the problem is. The light levels are going down. We don't like it if we don't like winter. Saying that, I know there's a lot of people that live in countries, very sunny countries that are sunny all year round and they kind of miss the seasons. There's some people that say, well, I actually miss autumn and winter. Yes. Yeah. Do you feel like that? Yeah. There's part of you that's like, yeah, that's it.

Kelsey (28:14)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's me. That was me. Mm-hmm. I love summer, but I missed the change just a little bit. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (28:35)
The change is nice, just the change and then spring. I love spring. So, you know, that's where everything's green again and it starts lighting up and everything feels fresh. So you've got to go through winter to get to spring. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a spring as well. So it's all about reframing. But a lot of my clients come to me because they often know what the problem is. They're fed up of the problem and they want to feel better.

Kelsey (28:39)
Nah. Yeah.

Right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love that description. That's a very great description. And I'm just going to say from like layman's terms, right? Because like, I'm not the therapist here. And we were talking about this before we hopped on this episode. I'm someone who I've got a lot of trauma in my background. There's a lot of trauma that I do remember that I'm very aware of now. But there's also chunks of my life I simply do not remember. Like, I don't have really solid memories around.

Good memories, bad memories, like kind of just have blank moments throughout my life, but I still know where most of my trauma has come from and how I've moved forward in my life. I actually didn't... It wasn't like I needed to... There were some moments I did go to therapy and there is a place and time for therapy always because it can be helpful to kind of sort out maybe what is the narrative you're carrying for yourself. Like maybe you're not really sure.

Gin Lalli (29:39)
Yep.

Yes.

I agree, yeah, there's a place for that.

Kelsey (29:59)
Maybe you're not sure, like, what is the narrative that I'm actually carrying with myself? And that narrative has obviously come from the past. And then the solution focus aspect is like, okay, we've identified the narrative. What do we want to do moving forward? And I had some therapy to, know, like work out like, okay, that's brought some awareness for myself. But the things that have been the game changer for me that really helped me get a hold of my mental health, and I'm gonna say this as well, doesn't mean I'm not prone to...

Gin Lalli (30:02)
Yeah.

Kelsey (30:28)
An anxiety episode now and again or a depressive episode. I'm human. But I'm more resilient in the face of kind of all the smaller kind of like bullshit that happens all the time. And I don't, I feel more in control and not as susceptible. It's been those forward thinking like, what can I, what can I do that's within my control to

Gin Lalli (30:29)
Of course, yeah, yeah, you're human. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelsey (30:52)
help myself feel better, like how do I wanna feel good in my body, in my mind, in my heart, and like what does that look like and what do I have to do in practice to make that happen? And then doing it. And it's hard, like anybody who's listening, I know that's probably not the answer that you want, like when we're not feeling good, it would be great to have a pill just to be like, or turn on my sad lamp and I magically feel better.

Gin Lalli (31:15)
Yeah.

Kelsey (31:18)
But it takes a little energy and effort, but I think that's what gets us on the other side of the home. And then it kind of keeps propelling us forward and keeps us then appreciating when spring comes and when summer comes and then appreciate when fall comes. Because now we're not scared of what's going to come with that decompression and that reset. Yeah.

Gin Lalli (31:30)
Yep.

Absolutely. Yeah. So the fear factor goes down. anxiety comes in because of fear. It's fight or flight or freeze is what we're going into. So what are you scared of? And actually it's not the thing that we're scared of. We're just scared that we won't be able to handle it. So once you start saying, well, I'll handle it. So I'm not actually scared of winter because I'll handle it. It's not winter that I'm scared of. I'm actually scared I'm going to fall apart during winter. And that's what I'm scared of.

Kelsey (31:44)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (32:05)
But actually, once you start reframing that, say, well, I will handle it. And oftentimes, so I totally agree with you, there's a place to go into the past if you want to. I'm just very clear as a therapist, I don't do that. So that'll be with a different therapist, that wouldn't be with me. So sometimes I joke like, I'm a therapist that doesn't need to hear your problems, because I'm all about solutions. But what we often do is as an adult, we start remembering a trauma maybe from our childhood or teenage years.

Kelsey (32:24)
I love that. I love that.

Gin Lalli (32:34)
And what you're doing now is with your adult brain, you are trying to analyze what that experience you had as a child. Now, what I'll often say to people is if you met a child of that age now going through that trauma, what would you say to them? So instead of trying to analyze from your adult perspective, what happened to you as a child, because obviously you feel you're the same entity, but you weren't, you were different. And if something like that happened to a child of that age now,

Kelsey (32:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (33:03)
you would be very forgiving of them and say it's not your fault and you would let it go and you would not expect them to carry it. So why are you doing that to yourself? So that's why we don't go into the past. question for you, don't know Kelsey, like you were saying there's parts of your memory, you know, that have gone from the past. Do you want it back? So I've had that argument or discussion I should say with people who say, well, I need to remember everything, everything.

Kelsey (33:09)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (33:32)
I'll always say, you know, it was quite traumatic. Like, do you kind of want to remember everything? Especially now, this might be 20, 30 years down the road. Do you want to, do you need to remember everything? Let's put it there to say, yeah, it was traumatic, it was horrible. But now you have your life, maybe with your children, your job, your new partner, what you're doing. How will remembering those traumas, every individual detail traumatic event, how

Kelsey (33:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

make a difference.

Gin Lalli (34:01)
How is that going to help you? Because once you're reliving it, it's very dangerous.

Kelsey (34:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, it's like you're right back into that place. like, don't get me wrong. think for me, what about my memories? And it's more so from a place of, I have memories of trauma. So like, I do remember not so great things happening. I do remember that. I think it's more so like there are periods of time in my childhood that I wish I could remember the good stuff. Like I know, like, when was the first time I learned to bake a cake? Like what, when I learned the small little things that

Gin Lalli (34:20)
Mm-hmm.

Kelsey (34:36)
you know, how that I've built up over time in my life or memories with my mom or memories with my dad. And now both my parents are passed. And so there's a lot of like my history of growing up that I just, I will never have access to. And that's a little bit heartbreaking. I deal with those emotions. Like I let myself have like feel the feelings and being heartbroken over it when I, when I want to feel that way and I allow it. But then

Gin Lalli (34:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelsey (35:03)
when it comes to like, know enough of the trauma that has happened because there are memories of that. And it's like, do I need to go deeper into being like, what was the explicit thing, this and that, or were there more memories of more things? I'm sure there was more memories of things happening. I got enough of a picture to know that I don't need to know it. Now, right, like, and again, this came through after setting up my routines and like getting into things.

Gin Lalli (35:12)
Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

That's it.

Kelsey (35:32)
This came, this is kind of like a little memory trigger that happened for me. I do yoga now as an adult and I like, remember I always really wanted to get into yoga kind of thing. And I've been doing yoga now for like four years. And sometime in the last like year or two, I had all of a sudden this memory from childhood in my childhood bedroom, there was this, her name's Wailani and she's this Hawaiian yoga instructor. And she would be on at like,

8 a.m. and at like 6 p.m. every day on like you know channel 2 or whatever and she's wearing these like colorful ass jumpsuits like full-on jumpsuits doing yoga on top of a mountain and this is in Hawaii and I think that's when I fell in love with yoga as a kid like every I like came back to that memory and I was like that that's amazing do I need to go any deeper no and now now when I do yoga

Gin Lalli (36:17)
There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelsey (36:27)
and I finish my session or whatever, I look back at two different periods of time in my life. I look back at the version of me that I remember. I give myself a hug and I say, whatever you're going through right now, it's okay, it sucks, but it'll get better, you'll survive. And it's me giving the love to the version of myself that maybe I didn't have in that moment. And that's the best I can do. And so I move forward through it.

Gin Lalli (36:40)
Yep.

That's right. That's right. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. But notice how you were doing a good, lovely, positive thing and it brought back a good, lovely, positive memory. So that's being solution focused. So if you want more good memories, that's what you're talking. So there's a reason your brain's got protective mechanism there. It doesn't want to remember the trauma. It says, yeah, it was horrible. Like if you, it's going to make you relive it. Why would you do that?

Kelsey (36:58)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah? Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (37:15)
So I hear that, you know, when people in therapy have gone over and over the trauma and they haven't found, you know, these things happen. We can't go back and change them. Unfortunately, the reason doesn't lie there. Your brain's not like an engine. You don't go in, find the problem, fix it, and then come out again. That's not how the brain works. So the brain will go to what you think about. So for you, by taking action of doing positive things is triggering, hopefully, you've just proven there, positive memories.

Kelsey (37:28)
Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (37:44)
as well. So that's why I believe in solution focused work, because that's now helping you as an adult to remember every single thing from the trauma from your childhood. You know, the reason is there, it's happened, we've got to sort of leave it in the past, otherwise it can really hold you back. And because you've made peace with it, you're now ready to do that work going forward. And actually, so a lot of my clients sometimes come to me after they've done that work. So you're quite right, they've done the

Kelsey (37:52)
Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (38:14)
the counseling, they said, right, okay, I've got the reason, Gin, but now what? I don't know how to move forward. But a lot of my clients as well, also, if they're coming to me in a highly anxious state, they know things have gone in their past. Once we get them to feel better, they can then start looking at their past much more objectively. So once we've taken away all that anxiety, the fear, the horrible feelings, calm all that down, because that's what a place to be looking at your past from.

Kelsey (38:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Gin Lalli (38:43)
that kind of emotional primitive place. Once you calm all that down, they'll then start looking at their past very objectively and rationally and it's much clearer. Otherwise, know, there's sometimes we can get our memories can get quite confused as well. So not at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's got to, you've got to come from a more rational place to be able to do that.

Kelsey (38:44)
No.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, our memory is not linear like a movie playing back.

Yeah, I love this conversation. I we've kind of strayed a little bit from the seasonal depression, but I think it's all very relevant. And I think maybe to just kind of tie it up nicely, what would you say from like a solution to focus approach would be best, I guess, like two components to be preventative for, you know, the seasonal change and the depression that might come with it? Or if we're already in it, you're deep in it, what would be helpful to

Gin Lalli (39:14)
have. Yeah.

Kelsey (39:38)
like take action and do things in it in the moment with a solution focused approach.

Gin Lalli (39:43)
So solution focus approach would very much what is going to be your routine going forward? What would show you that you're going to be able to cope with the season change? So people often say, I'll wake up tomorrow morning with more energy. So how are you going to create more energy? You might need to go to bed a little bit earlier. You might need to have a better bedtime routine. You might still want to get up. it is everything we do is action first, then mindset. Don't sit there waiting for your mindset to change.

Kelsey (39:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (40:13)
but start visualizing what you would feel like if you just felt 10 % better tomorrow. So not 100%, just even 5 % better tomorrow. If you felt 5 % better tomorrow, what would you do? So that's in order to prepare yourself for this change that's coming with the season. Know that we can't control the season, but you can control lots of other things. The other thing to do is to have some gratitude. What has been good about your week?

Kelsey (40:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (40:42)
what has been good, look at the good things that are happening. these are nothing, take your focus even away from the weather and the season. You know, that, you met your friend and you had a really good time, you had a really good day at work, or the kids made you laugh, you heard your favorite song on the radio. The more we focus on the weather, sometimes even in a positive way, it can trigger the negative feelings as well. So come completely away from it and just think of other good things that have been.

Kelsey (40:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (41:11)
good about your week. There's going to be something that you need to be, that you will be grateful for. You gave all the tips. Go on. You go.

Kelsey (41:16)
Yeah, in my... no, I was just gonna say with the gratitude, my go-to guys, when I'm struggling to see the thanks in my life, I'll go as small as like, I'm so grateful for this cup of coffee that I'm having after a really bad night of sleep, or I'm so thankful that my boyfriend stepped up and when got us lunch because I just didn't have the energy to think or manage it. Very small things. They don't have to be big life-changing things.

Gin Lalli (41:30)
Yes. Yep. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Not at all. No, we're not. That's the first question I ask in Solution Focus session. What's been good about your week? And I'll always say, I want to hear if you had a nice cup of tea and you saw a cute dog. You know, that's all good. That's what I want to know. It doesn't have to be this massive epiphany that you had that, you know, something was amazing. It's the good little things. You saw your favorite program on TV.

Kelsey (41:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Gin Lalli (42:06)
You heard that song on the radio. If you're in the depths of winter depression, if it really does affect you, I would definitely recommend you can see your GP, see a therapist, see your GP, you know, if you really do want some help. But it's also about finding your, what I call your three P's, your positive activity, your positive interactions and the way to positively think. So positive activity, you need to find an activity. And so this is helping with the movement now.

Kelsey (42:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (42:36)
An activity that you can do indoors if you're going to do it outdoors, you're going to do it in the daytime where it's light. An activity, don't stop, don't hibernate, don't go into freeze. Your positive interactions, you're getting together. You don't have to have a big party, but you're getting together with your one best friend who you haven't seen for ages and you're going to go for a walk or you're going to go for a coffee or you're going to go around their house or they're going to come around your house. And positive thinking, we're coming back to the gratitude again. What's been good as well.

Kelsey (42:52)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Gin Lalli (43:06)
You know, seasonal affective disorder or seasonal depression, you know, has been proven. It is a seasonal type of depression. If you're really in the depths of it, there's nothing wrong with seeing your GP about that. But also please control your stress levels. It's about reframing and coping and managing and a therapist would help you with that as well.

Kelsey (43:20)
Okay.

Yeah, I love it. Very concrete. I have one last question and I ask everybody this and I know you've been coming from the therapist point of view, but I like to ask everybody at the end of our episode. What is your go to number one favorite? You want to say coping mechanism or positive habit or routine that has made a huge difference for you and your own mental well-being? What's your go to favorite one?

Gin Lalli (43:38)
you

Music. I will listen to music. So yeah, so I've got an Indian background, so Punjabi music, Punjabi dance music, so very upbeat as well, or a little bit of cheesy 80s music, like a little bit of that as well. So yeah, create a playlist of music and put that on, but that sound that you get. So I love music. So that would be it for me.

Kelsey (43:59)
Okay.

any kind of music or...

Okay. Yeah. Yes.

There you go. Okay.

Gin Lalli (44:27)
The sound for me is very important.

Kelsey (44:28)
Perfect.

I love that, it is for me too, so I respect that one a lot. Well, awesome. Well, Jen, thank you so much for coming on.

Gin Lalli (44:39)
Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed that. That's gone really quickly.

Kelsey (44:43)
Yeah, it went really fast. I said, we'll be putting your information in the show notes, so if anyone wants to get in touch with you, they can. But thank you again for coming on, and until next time, guys, we'll see you.

Gin Lalli (44:48)
Thank you.