Practitioner Feature: Healing, Integration & Emotional Safety with Caitlin Kohls

Anxiety doesn’t have to be the enemy. In this grounded, practical conversation, we shift from shame and all-or-nothing thinking into skills that transform stress into clarity, confidence, and momentum. 

Nikki sits down with Licensed Professional Counselor Caitlin Kohls. We explore the difference between useful nervousness and anxiety that disrupts your life. We unpack radical acceptance and Wise Mind, address functional freeze and nervous system overload, and share simple, daily practices that steady your energy, protect your focus, and help you move forward with intention.

We explore nervous system patterns like functional freeze and overload, and why high achievers can feel numb or crash when they try to relax. You’ll learn how sleep, movement, and small rituals support regulation, and how compassionate limits around scrolling help restore focus and presence.

Tune in, slow down, and remember that steadiness already lives within you.

If you are feeling suicidal ideation, or are looking for someone to talk to, there is a free text crisis line. Text 988 for support or visit https://988lifeline.org/

Reflection Moment

Notice where safety, or the lack of it, shows up in your growth process. What would it look like to honor your nervous system as you continue to evolve?

Episode Links

• dbtselfhelp.com
• Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants by Robin Will Kimmerer
• Blog - What Is Functional Freeze?
• Blog - How to Diagnose Anxiety
• Uncover the unique design of your soul with our 23-page Soul Blueprint, a beautifully crafted guide combining Human Design & Astrology.

Book an in-office or Telehealth appointment online with Caitlin Kohls, MA,

Transcript

Welcome & Purpose Of The Show

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hi, I'm Lizzie.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

And I'm Nikki. Together, we welcome you to the Modern Sud Collective Podcast, a space where we explore holistic living, spiritual alignment, and personal growth.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Each week, we'll share conversations, practices, and wisdom to help you live with more joy, effort, and connection.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Ancient Wisdom, the Modern Mindfulness, we're here to help you connect, expand, and come home to yourself. Let's elevate mind, body, and spirit together.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

And now on to day episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

So something you and I have been talking about a lot, and I want to talk about is anxiety that uh to not be shameful of anxiety, because anxiety, I love the blog. We're gonna link it below in the show notes, that it can be useful. There's a purpose for it, there's a reason for it. And I think that's such a beautiful reframe because I'm older, but in my 20s, I had just debilitating anxiety. And it was what I read, you know, in your blog, you can go to doctors and they they might know, they might not know. It's just something that's underlying. And it took rip therapy to get me through it and to the other side. Um, but I've never heard that frame in that way. You know, we hear in the spiritual community that there's ways that we use our sympathetic for good. And, you know, we used to be hunters and we have to be on, on, you know, ready to go. Can we talk about that? I want to hear your view on that because that's just such a great reframe because it just it hits so many, it hits so much for me for home for all of that.

Labels, Judgment, And All-Or-Nothing Thinking

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's that reframe, it's really important and it's really necessary because not all anxiety is bad, you know. It it we as as a community, as a population, as a social structure, we are inherently taught to place judgments and place labels on everything. Yep. That's exactly where the problem starts. If we're told to place judgments on everything, then okay, we have good, bad, fair versus unfair. And that what does that lead to? It only leads to black and white thinking. It leads to that all or nothing thinking. I'm either perfect or I'm worthless. I'm either I'm eating I'm either smart or I'm dumb. I'm either good or I'm bad. And that's not true in any way. Because these labels, they are they're arbitrary, they're useless. Like, yes, they're helpful in some regards. If I'm saying, like, yeah, I bought like I bought a large amount of apples today versus like, I don't know, I just popped in the store and like I bought one as a snack. Obviously, we need labels and descriptors for things if I'm putting it out later. Yes. Obviously, we need them, but we don't need to judge ourselves in that manner. We don't need to judge our everyday lives and our actions in that manner because it is normal for us to feel nervous and stressed, and we are supposed to have nervousness and stress and what what I like to label as unpleasant emotions in our lives. We are supposed to have these in our lives because life is not, life is not, oh, I'm just living on this baseline. Life is, I have highs, I have lows, I have pleasant days, I have mid-days, I have eh days, but it's because you're living your life and you're facing everything, you're facing that reality in between as well. And so when, you know, when anxiety really becomes a concern is when symptoms are persistent, when they're overwhelming, when they interfere with work, your relationships, and your daily activities. So, for example, um, if you have a big presentation at work that you have to give, or uh me, for example, um, I've never recorded a podcast. Uh, I'm nervous. You love it.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yes, real life example right here.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

It's okay for me to feel nervous, um, because what does that nervousness tell me? That nervousness tells me that I I care about what I'm doing right now. It tells me that I that, you know, I'm I'm not usually someone who goes on a podcast or talks about these things, um, even though I love mental health. Um but not usually the avenue that I go about sharing this information. I usually do that on a one-on-one office space.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Right?

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Closed door. Yep. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

And now we're helping so many by having it.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Exactly. Exactly. And so that reframe is so helpful. That nervousness, you know what, that actually shows me that I'm brave, that I'm strong, that I'm resilient, that I can do things, I can do hard things, I can do things that I don't normally do because that nervousness doesn't necessarily have to hold me back in any way either. And I like to frame that in the context of like anxiety. When we do have diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder, you know, you have to start with talking to a mental health professional or a medical professional um to actually get a comprehensive idea of what's going on. Um, you know, there are, I'm a licensed professional counselor, so licensed therapists, um, LPCs, LCSWs, LMFTs, um, they can diagnose anxiety along with psychologists, psychiatrists, primary care doctors, and pediatricians for children and teens as well. Um and it's it's important to have this reframe because when anxiety is present, like or nervousness is present, yes, these unpleasant emotions are there, but they're not overtaking me. I'm here talking, I'm here, you're interviewing me. It's lovely. I'm having a great time. Impeding my daily life in any way, shape, or form.

Functional Anxiety vs. Impairment

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Oh, that's a good call. That's a great perspective to think of it in that way. It's not impeding me and it's pushing you, that anxiety can be pushing out of your comfort zone too. Is that right? Like when you're doing something unfamiliar, your body's trying to keep you safe.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

Exactly. Oh, and I love that point too. When we're doing something unfamiliar, we are typically going to choose that comfortable path over that uncomfortable path simply because it's what we know is what we used to, it's what we're used to. It's those same um like coping skills or unhealthy coping habits that we fall into. Um, so like instead of instead of choosing to go for a walk or um like literally do a lap around the house, um uh instead someone chose to doom scroll on their phone. That's not going to help their cause or their situation or help or help, you know, the nervousness that they feel because they're not actually doing anything with that anxiety, with that nervousness. And so it's so important to have, you know, that mind, body, soul connection as well. Because if you don't have the awareness of what's going on within yourself, how are you going to effectively ask for help or you know, know how that help works appropriately for yourself as well. Because I I tell people all the time, just because I give you a skill doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you either. Um, like, yes, I have skills that work for some people, and I've I've had skills where people have told me, Caitlin, that's just that's just not the vibe for me. We need that. I, as a professional, I need that input. Because if you're not open and you're not telling me what's going on, what works for you and what doesn't, then you know, we can't collaborate and find that game plan for you to overcome when that anxiety is debilitating and it is impeding your functioning of everyday life as well.

Anxiety As Courage And Care

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yes. So so much that you just said, and I have a lot of things coming in my head of what I want to ask you next. So I have two main ones. Uh and the one more from tipping a bit into the spiritual side. For for me, when I look at this, it was a reframe that I received years ago from one of my coaches. When I have issues coming in and problems coming in, you know, this is my coach that was taught through Buddhism, which I know we've, you know, talked about that as well. Um that, you know, I'm the one who bought the car. So if it has problems, that it shouldn't be that impact, you know, like making it such a big deal. I'm the one who chose that. Yeah. And with that, and also from that like esoteric spiritual perspective, I incarnated here to feel the ups and downs, to not be a lump on a log and not care about anything and let everything just drown out around me. So I want to hear your thoughts of that, tying it into the spiritual side of everything, what that looks like. Because we are, you you mentioned we're meant, you know obviously to have these ups and downs, and this is life and this is how we grow. And it's just, you know, managing it and understanding it and getting to know ourselves. Like what how what do you tell me your perspective on that? Yes.

Getting Diagnosed And Seeking Support

SPEAKER_04 9:51

Oh my I have, well, Nikki, I got a lovely perspective, let me tell you. First and like first and foremost, um, like I love spirituality and I love the community that I've found, you know, here as well with you, with Lizzie. Um, I love being part of this, this piece of source that connects me as well. Um, and you know, it's really important to have this sense of radical acceptance. So I'll get in, let me let me get a little, let me get a little therapist, counselor education like, and then we're gonna pull the spirituality right back in because they tie perfectly together. So the framework that I like to focus on when I work with clients, whether they are dealing with trauma, anxiety, depression, PTSD, ADHD as well, I love to focus on DBT and CBT. So DBT is dialectical behavioral therapy, and CBT is cognitive behavioral therapy. Uh, cognitive behavioral therapy typically means thinking about your thinking. So the reframing, that's that's exactly what we're doing with that. Um, it also looks like different behavior techniques to uh instead of choosing to go this way, you're simply moving that effort in another direction for yourself that you deem more effective for yourself. And when it comes to DBT and dialectical behavioral therapy, there are four modules within that. There is mindfulness, distress tolerance, emotion regulation, and interpersonal effectiveness skills. DBT itself draws from Zen Buddhism and the study of mindfulness. Oh wow. So look at that. That is why I I really, really I love these skills and I love sharing them with people because I I mean, first of all, you I believe that as uh as a counselor, as a professional, you have to use or try these skills before giving them to other people because you have to know yourself how they work within your body. And if you can't effectively connect with yourself, then how are you going to effectively tell other people how to do that as well? That just that doesn't make sense because that's not aligned as well. You have to be aligned to be able to effectively share things with other people. And so with DBT focusing and really drawing from Zen Buddhism and the study of mindfulness, mindfulness is all about drawing your attention to the present moment so that you can slow down life and achieve inner peace. So obviously, um I'm gonna focus on the things that, you know, bring that inner peace to myself and light me up as well. Because that is how that's how I'm able to provide um to go back to the little woo-woo-wishy portion, you know. You uh so graciously completed my human design chart for me. Um, and that a through and through to a T mattress is like a lot of different aspects about my life.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

We'll put that in the show notes, the soul blueprint. If anyone else is curious, it was a look into your own soul. And Caitlyn saw a look into her soul and what it meant.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

And and you know, I've I I laugh about it because uh my my parents have always told me that I like I've known who I was from a very young age. Um and you know, I think that's true. I laugh because there's there's literally like uh family videos of stuff of me uh me being me. So I I absolutely love that. And it's really important to work with your human design and because it is like a blueprint of yourself, a blueprint of your soul, a blueprint of how you attune to source and how you attune to the world and what's going on around you. And I sh I I highly resonate with um being being a healer and um and providing good energy to the world as well. I'm I'm very much um I very much provide energy and uh I think in the profession that very much makes sense for where I'm at as well. Um because it's all holding space. It's all about holding space. It's all about, you know, letting people come in with their energy, their balls of energy. I like to say people come out come into my office with balls of yarn, and and we take the time together to weed out the different colors of the different strands of yarn so that they can leave the office with skills, with tools, with validation, with empathy, with a feeling of compassion and love, and be able to feel like the best version of themselves. For me to feel like the best version of myself, that means using my spirituality. I have crystals, I have tarot cards, I have an astrolog, like an astrology journal. I have my personal journal, I have um Braiding Sweetgrass as well. That book is fantastic. Um like that one too, yes. Yeah, by Robin Wall Kimmerer. She is a um, she is a part of the Potawatomi tribe, and she is um also a professor as well. And this is all about it's all about connecting to source. So it's about, you know, and and the wisdom that comes from that too, because connecting to source means that you're also connecting to the inner workings of yourself because we are all connected, exactly. And we are made, we are made from the same things that the universe is made from. So we're going to be affected by the things that are happening in the universe that are even going on out in the out in the ether that we can't.

Comfort Zones, Coping, And Awareness

SPEAKER_01 16:24

We have the same stardust inside of us.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Exactly. Exactly. So knowing that we have this stardust in us, knowing that, you know, there are things that go on in the world that we can't control or that we simply don't have control over, you know, to get through difficult feelings, difficult situations, and tolerate the things that we truly can't like immediately change, uh, we use radical acceptance within DBT. Okay. Yes. This is about it's about accepting all aspects of whatever situation you find yourself in. So exactly like you were saying with with your car, you know, like if I I buy a car um and I have to get an oil change, like sure I can be upset that I have to pay for the oil change, but if I let it affect me emotionally, if I let it affect me physically, that is a way that is a waste of my energy. That is a waste of the economy of energy that I hold within myself because energy is precious. Our energy is our energy is unique to us as individuals as well. And if you just freely give out your energy and you freely give out your emotions, you're depleting yourself completely. You're not thinking about how all of these things are actually resonating with you on an everyday basis. And so when we choose radical acceptance, you know, you're being radical, you're being complete, you're being total in saying that it is what it is. I I release my expectations and my judgments about what happened, and I turn to a higher power, I turn to God, I turn to the universe, I turn to uh spiritual guides, whoever or whatever that you or anyone may believe in. And you say, okay, this is this is what you've been given. This is what's been given to me. This is the hand that I've been dealt, and that's okay. I accept it. I don't have to like the circumstances. I don't have to agree with the circumstances either. But I do have to say to myself, I'm not willing to spend my energy on this anymore because it's not deserving of my energy. For example, like if I'm if I'm in, if I'm in traffic, you know, um I I bought the car. I I chose to commute to and from work, whether that is a choice or not, as well. Um, but I I love when people say like there's traffic. There isn't traffic. You are the traffic, you are part of that traffic.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

You are part of it. Consider it all one connected piece. Exactly.

Mind Body Soul Connection In Practice

SPEAKER_04 19:23

That's the whole part of radical acceptance as well. You have to accept that you are part of this as well. It doesn't matter what decisions or what what led you to get here. It matters that you're here right now and now you're deciding am I going to spend more energy on this or am I going to save this energy and this and these emotions that I have for something else that's more useful for myself, that's more productive for myself, that's more effective for myself as well. Like honestly, I don't love being part of traffic. Um I don't think anyone does. But I'm not going to spend my energy flipping people off, um, honking my horn if people aren't moving fast enough, because that's not going to get me anywhere. But what I am going to do is turn up my music loud and sing my favorite song in the car. Um, I'm going to roll the windows down if it's standstill. And, you know, maybe I turn off the air and I feel the warmth flowing in and I use my senses to tie myself into the moment as well. Because we don't have to, we don't have to sit in misery. It's it's a choice and and it's a brave choice to use this radical acceptance and say, it is what it is. I'm not approving. I'm not saying it's okay, but I'm saying it's not worth my, it's not worth my energy anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

It really pulled me out of the victim standpoint. I got on a call just like this. And my uh my coach at the time, Anahida, who did our first workshop, she lives in Germany, and I was all frazzled and everything. And she's composed, you know, she's she does her practice, she does her mindfulness, her meditation, she practices what she preaches. And just like what you were saying, I'm saying all the things that are like, isn't life terrible? Look at all these things that are going wrong with me. I woke up late, I dropped my coffee, my car is this, my that. And she's like, Well, you chose to not have a second alarm, and you chose to drink a coffee today, and you chose to have a car where when you signed that contract, you knew other bills might come in. So it's just how you look at it. So I love your um perspective on the how that ties into the victimhood, because I do also think um societal, et cetera, can have us go into the woe is me, isn't everything difficult. And for me, from a spiritual perspective, I can see that as almost a um a dimming of our natural light to keep us from stepping into our full power and we feel. Very comfortable in that uh victim standpoint, whether you know it like Joe Dispenza, one of my favorite quotes, you'd you'll choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven because it's good, you know. So what are your with looking at DPT, DBT and and the uh quadrants and you know radical acceptance, etc. How does like that victim mentality? Because we don't want to shade anyone for having victim, I still have victim mentality. I still feel I'll tell Kyle something and we'll both be like, wait, this is ridiculous. Why am I complaining about this?

Spiritual Lens And Radical Acceptance

SPEAKER_04 22:30

So like come on, get it together. And and I'm gonna I'm gonna do a magical thing here and we're gonna reframe, we're gonna reframe calling it like the victim mentality as well. Okay. Because within within DBT, it's it's important to have labels because, like I said, labels are necessary for some things, but we want to create create emotional distance from the labels as well. When we say victim mentality, that's inherently we're inherently saying there's something wrong with that, there's something bad with that, that that's not appropriate to do. But reframe, okay. Oh, I love it. Okay. I mean that when we think about this through the DBT lens, through the therapeutic lens, it's about are you being willing or about are you being willful? Because there is willingness in the universe and there is willfulness in the universe. When we are willful, that is when we are sitting on our hands. We're throwing a tantrum when action is needed. We're saying, nope, I'm not even gonna try. I'm not even willing to try. Um and it's that it is the victim mentality. It is self-pity. It is sitting there and wondering, oh, why me? Woe is me. Like this always happens to me. But it's not effective to spend more than a moment in that willfulness. It's not wrong to spend time there, it's not bad to spend time there or to, or to be willful or to act as you said before. It's not bad to have that, those emotions. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's nothing to be ashamed of. But we do need to focus on where is this willfulness getting me right now versus where's the end goal? Where do I want to be? And that's why we cultivate willingness instead. We have to, just like radical acceptance, we have to accept that we are part of a world greater than ourselves. We have a sense of connection to ourselves and to the universe. Because what this does is it brings an openness to your life and an openness to the world. And it gives you the ability to see the same old things that you see every single day, but through a more gentler lens. Um, and a, you know, with a reframing lens as well, because you're able to, you know, look at yourself and say, you know, okay, maybe I do have this willfulness. I I don't want to do this thing, but um, and I and I'm not willing to do this thing right now at this moment. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. I I don't live your life. I can't tell you whether that's right or wrong for you. But I can say, you know, if you want to cultivate more willingness into your life, well, that means that we have to step up in some manner. You have to show up for yourself. But how do you do that? Because most people are like, wait, um, okay, maybe I don't want to do that thing, but they're not necessarily self-reflecting or have the ability to have that self-awareness to uh really dive into the uh underworkings of all of that. So all of these skills really take practice. I know when I say them that they might sound like easy or like, oh, okay, like it is what it is, la-di-da-di-da. But these skills take take years to to master. And and it's not about I wouldn't even say it's about mastering the skills, it's about using skills to find a maintenance routine for yourself. What works for you, what doesn't work for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

And something like that to have more routine around a change. So you have an anchor to your change. Yes, exactly.

CBT, DBT, And Mindfulness Roots

SPEAKER_04 26:25

You have an anchor to that, absolutely. And so with cultivating this willingness, first you have to notice when you're being willful. Um, you gotta notice when am I, when am I standing in the way of myself? That is the first step. And then we radically accept what that willfulness is because it's the reality of what you're experiencing. So you can't deny that reality of what's happening because if you deny it, then you're not actually paying attention to what's going on. You're not actually reflecting on what's going on. And you cannot move forward until you radically accept, yes, I was being willful. Yes, I was standing in my own path. Yes, I was getting in my own way. And then we want to turn our minds towards acceptance and towards willingness. And and there is there is like another skill to do with that. You can simply half smile, just turn up the corners of your lips a little bit. Um and and that sounds so simple, but you know, when we bring our body awareness to it, when you have a a full fake smile, you're signaling to your brain that you're faking it. So that's not going to bring the genuine emotion of happiness out. But if you have a half smile on your lips, you know, that means through emotions, that might mean content. That might mean okay. That might even mean that you feel meh or bored or even like indifferent as well. But I would probably rather be there than whatever unpleasant emotion I might be sitting in as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Right. Exactly. I that that thought of forcing the smile and your body firing and wiring and your mind knowing this isn't real, you're faking it. You're putting, you're just putting uh like something over top of it so you don't have to actually look at it. Yes, and doing that half smile to get you there. And a lot of what you're saying really feels like manifestation techniques, right? Like when you were because I know we talk about this a lot too. You know, there's all those stories about someone who hated their job. Every day hated their job, hated their job, just, you know, negative, didn't like it, complained about it. Woe is me, in in that um willful side. Yes, okay. Willful side.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Yeah, you got it, Nikki. Absolutely. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

And then, and somehow either they hit rock bottom or they decide I need a change, and they start to look at things with a fresh perspective. They start to have gratitude for, you know, the the warm car they drove to work in, their warm coffee, the elevator ride. They live, they get to work in a high rise, they get to be around friends. I have goosebumps while I'm saying this. And then I've heard spiritual teachings, particularly Gabby Bernstein, talk about how this change she's seen her students and those that she worked with right in the beginning of her path in spirituality, that that change, that beacon, that energy opened her up to something brand new, to to you opening, you're opening your energy to because the universe is thinking, obviously, oh, you like complaining, let's give you more to complain about. That's what you love, because everything is neutral. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

That that yeah, absolutely is so true. Because also, you know, like with with some of my clients as well, um, like they're like, oh, I love mindfulness skills. And they're like, yeah, do this, this, and this all the time. But then sometimes they come in and they're like, yeah, I really gotta, I gotta dial back into these mindfulness skills because because now I don't feel like that best version of myself and I can't connect with who I am and what I what I want to do again. And it's like, yeah, like because you are you're basically ignoring yourself at that point, which means like you're invalidating yourself. If you are ignoring yourself and you're not actually talking to yourself about what you feel and what's going on, then what you want re and what you want, then reality is gonna be pretty bleak because you're you're pushing yourself to the.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Yeah, exactly. You're gonna get that from others.

SPEAKER_04 30:41

Yes. The universe is going to give you the same, the same situation, the same circumstances, the same lesson over and over and over again until you make that change for yourself, until you've learned that lesson. And then it's like, oh, oh, it's like a chapter's closed. Wow, look at this new world that I've entered now that I've learned this lesson and really put put this put this teaching in. I'm integrating it now into the future for what I've learned.

Energy, Source, And Alignment

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Yes. And right now, with your podcast releasing last week was the Chinese New Year. We released the year of the wooden snake. We're stepping into the year of the fire horse. So anyone who's listening might have felt whether whether you are into astrology or not, the energies around all of us have been pulling us and holding us tight and squeezing so that things that aren't aligned can be released. So we can step into our full energy. And things might have felt uncomfortable and things might have felt like, you know, giving you that perspective. And it's all for our own development and our growth. And it's not punishing us. And like you're saying, Caitlin, the same thing, this whatever you want to call it, story, scenario, trauma will keep showing up in different forms. You know, it's it's that old adage of this the same boyfriend, different skin suit. Like he all he all he treats the girl the same and it's not great. And the girl just jumps and doesn't heal in between. I've been in that, in that that vibe. So I know that from my 20s. Um, but it's we've all been there. Okay, we've all we've all been there. We like, you're gonna become Prince Charming. I know you are.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

Or the classic, I can fix him.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, on the classic, I can fix him. I don't know why all of us women have that wound inside of us. But right now, like the energies around us are giving us and presenting us. And uh the Chinese New Year was February 17th, but you have all this fresh energy. So things that want to release, you know, start starting to have that um perspective and looking at it, et cetera, that shift of what you're talking about, that shift of a different look, a different perspective, a different awareness. And even what you were talking about with CBT, you're choosing a different path. Yes. You know, it's that phrase of insanity is choosing the same thing and expecting something different to happen. That's what makes me think about CBT. I keep doing the same thing and I keep going in every week and talking to my therapist or my uh my life coach and talking about it. And I would think back and think, wow, this this person has the patience of a saint because why aren't they like screaming at me and saying, by now, you should know, but it was my own journey and you can't intervene in someone's healing journey. Exactly. And the CBT part of it is looking at if your life's not where you want it to be, looking at where you want to go and where can you change your perspective, change your forward path. So that that leads me into intuition. Like we have this little voice inside of us, and it can be clouded or it can be loud and it could whisper. How do you integrate intuition when you are working with clients or even on your own? How do you work with your intuition? Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

So I have to say, uh, from a very, from a very young age, I personally have always had a very strong intuition. Um I, you know, my parents said like they they knew I knew who I was from a very young age, and that's not changed um personally either. I know what I want and and I feel it in my gut. Um honestly, when it comes to when it comes to your instincts, when it comes to that gut feeling, it is gonna feel different for everybody. But there is like a general feeling that should resonate overall. For me personally, it's it's a it's the it's the middle of my stomach, is what it feels like. And it's and it's a ball in the in the middle of my stomach, but it's grounded, it's stable, and it's connected to what I feel are the rest of my chakras as well throughout my body, um, and like my energy points as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Um Does it feel like butterflies? Does it feel light? Does it feel airy? Does it feel contense? What does it feel like?

SPEAKER_04 35:13

So for me, for me, it, for me, it really just feels like grounded. It feels like I'm centered within, like within my soul body, and that like everything is intertwined is the best way for me to describe it for myself. For other people though, um, I have had clients tell me that it feels that it feels like butterflies, that it feels that they feel it in the pit of their stomach, but it doesn't feel whereas whereas fear or anxiety feels like, feels like heavy, it feels like despair, it feels maybe bubbly. The their intuition, it feels, feels light, feels airy, and just like like butterfly kisses and butterfly wings, just little taps, like you know, does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yes, yeah, little taps. And I feel mine in my heart where I can feel in my heart, and I can feel that constriction or that expansion with it. But it took me a while to get there. So if you have a new client who comes in and who is starting to dabble into, you know, heal healing uh from a perspective with a counselor and then spiritual, and they talk about, you know, I don't know how to access my intuition. What do I do? How do you help them or what do you do to help them get there?

Radical Acceptance In Daily Life

SPEAKER_04 36:33

Yeah. So one of the first questions and one of the first topics that I typically go over with clients is mindfulness. Um, I just think it's so important to be able to connect with yourself and be able to tune into the internal responses and external and external, well, I would say internal and external stimuli that are creating emotional responses or thought responses or behavioral responses in your own environment. And if I mo most of the time I really ask people, I'm like, well, do you do you know why you do that? Or do you do you know what you're a straight shooter? I love it. Oh yeah, I am I'm straight shooter. I'm like, well, do you know or not? And and I am and I'm no judgment about that, but I am a straight shooter. Like, because here's the thing you're in my you came to my office for a reason. Um and I'm gonna help you, I'm gonna help you get there, whatever, whatever that reason is. Uh, but I don't mess around when it comes to skills. I'm gonna give you the tools, absolutely, because that's the thing. If you're coming into my office, it's because that there is some impeding factor with mental health symptoms um or spirituality or like life transitions that are going on where you feel like you can't figure it out on your own. So the point of therapy is to provide tools to feel like you can effectively figure things out on your own. But how do you do that when you don't know how to listen to yourself or you don't know uh with anxiety? Sometimes people feel like there are just so many uncontrollable thoughts going on at one time. So how do you know which thought to listen to? How do you know which thought versus which thought is anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Yes, yes, they're all in there. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And it's important that um that we use within DBT, the skill is called wise mind, where you are addressing your intuition through your wise mind. And it's important because what you're doing is you are addressing your emotional mindset and you are addressing your rational mindset. And you are combining those together, and that is what equals your intuition.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Oh, wow. Wait, can you say that again just for anyone? Yes, yes, that's huge. Okay, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

So you combine your emotional mindset and your rational mindset to equal your wise mind and equal your intuition. Um, another way to think of it is like a like a Venn diagram. You have emotion mind and rational mind on opposite sides. And then that little overlap, that oval shape in the middle, is your wise mind because it has to be, it has to be both. It has to be this aha moment for yourself or this centered knowing moment for yourself where you're like, ah, this is this is it. This is what I want for myself, this is what I need for myself, this is what's going to help me move forward.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

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SPEAKER_04 40:54

Well, let's go over some examples because you know I say emotion mind and rational mind, but like, what does that actually mean as well?

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Let's break it down.

Willfulness vs. Willingness

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Emotion mind is when our when our thoughts and our behaviors are being controlled by our emotions. So our our energy is hot because the behaviors that we have is is matching the intensity of the feelings that we have as well. So logical thinking and planning are difficult and not happening in this mindset because facts may be made out larger or more important or even minimized as well. Just any facts can be distorted. So some examples might be fighting with someone you disagree with, um, cuddling your pet. That's a that's more of a pleasant example. Um, you know, going to the beach for fun as well. That's something I love to do.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Yes. Even though we live in Siberia, no, we just live somewhere very cold. But Caitlin and I still love to go. We still love to go to the beach by our our houses. And it's beautiful. It looks like the ocean because we're on the lake. But yes, absolutely. Yes. So going, so that could be something that's more emotional. You're feeling that, you know, you're going and doing something you enjoy. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 42:21

Yes, absolutely. And you know, and on more of like the unpleasant side of that as well, you know, maybe you purchase something you can't afford. Maybe you take an impulse trip without planning, or you snap at a salesperson because they don't have what you want in stock at the store. What this shows you is that you are you're acting on your emotions. You're not, you're not breaking it down and thinking about it first. There's just this hot energy action towards it. So, um, like, like kids as well. They go out, they go play res, they go and play at recess and everything. They, if they see a ball come up to them, they're just immediately kicking the ball. There's no like there's no rational thought there. It's just, whoo, I'm outside, I'm having the time of my life. It's it's the time to get out all of their energy as well. They're in their emotional mind at recess because it's just fun. It's just expressive. And they don't have to, they're not analytically thinking about anything that's happening at that time. So then rational mind is that analytical thinking. It's the empirical thinking where you are being logical, you're being rational and reasonable about what's happening and what's occurring overall. So the key point here is that these behaviors and thoughts are cool because they are not emotional in approaching problem solving. So, for example, if You look up if you look up the bus schedule or the train schedule before you go and wait there. That is rational mind. If you are studying for a test, if you are measuring ingredients to bake a cake, you know, those have to be exact. You can't you can't be like, oh, I'm gonna just throw in a little more flour and a little more cedar.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Um how it works. Not how it works with baking, with cooking. You can just keep it do and pilot it on. Baking chemistry, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:31

Exactly. And so with that rational mind, we uh there's no emotions there. It's just here's what I've planned. Here's my schedule, here's the bus schedule, here's the worksheet in front of me, and now I'm solving the math problems. You're not thinking about your emotions, you're not thinking about anything else during that time. It's just rational, logical, empirical thinking.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah, it makes sense about it hits home for like the bus and the train schedule. If you're late, you're late, you miss the bus. There's not it, there's it's not you're not making an emotional choice. You're you're deciding functional what exactly when you should get there, so that functional, you can be on the train because it comes every hour to get to your destination. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So those two, those the emotional and the functional, looking at those merge, creating your intuition, your intuitive voice, you're feeling within you, balancing them out.

Wise Mind: Emotion Meets Reason

SPEAKER_04 45:34

And and it's not that, and it's not that like your intuition, it's not like it's subdued in any way, or it's not like it's not there, or that it doesn't exist. We all have an intuition, we can all find it, but it might be a little quieter just due to the excess stimulation that's going on and the extra information that we're already already filtering through on an everyday basis as well. And so, you know, having these mental health check-ins with yourself and and you know, saying, like, okay, wait, let me let me pause for a minute. Where where am I at right now? Where are my emotions at? Where are my thoughts and my rational thinking at? And and does this work for where I am right now? Like if I'm at work uh and I'm and I'm counseling people and I'm in session with people, I can do those check-ins with myself if if I had a bad day or if I didn't sleep well, or if, you know, if I'm worried about family or something. And and I tell myself, okay, yep, here's the emotional side. Rationally, though, I I gotta work so and and I want to focus on my clients. So let me emotionally put that aside right now because my intuition, my wise mind, my my gut, my core, that grounded feeling wants to be here for my clients right now. I don't even want to think about what I have going on right now. It would do me more good to put that aside because it's unhelpful, because it's more emotion-coded right now, and do the wise mind thing instead. Do what my intuition says instead and and follow through with that. Because when you follow through with your intuition, you are fully supporting yourself and you are encouraging yourself to live your true authentic life as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Yes. It might, and it might not look like what other people expect of you once you start following it. Exactly. It might look different and but it's your voice, what you are feeling, what you are being pulled towards. You know, you could be in a full-time corporate job and and get the pull to start macrameing or doing something and you have no idea why, but your intuition's pulling you, and all of a sudden you have us a business that gets successful, that has a brand deal. You know, anything, anything can happen. Our intuition doesn't give us everything off the bat because we're healing and we're moving forward. And then also life would be so boring if we knew, okay, now you are a CEO. Now you, now you have a Porsche and you have to work for it all. And you know, it just everything that comes through our intuition are the breadcrumbs for our healing and for our soul purpose and everything that goes along with it.

Emotion Mind And Rational Mind Examples

SPEAKER_04 48:22

Absolutely. And why wouldn't you want to, you know, live your most aligned life and and feel it within yourself as well? Because that's what it's about. It's about it's about feeling it within yourself too, you know? Sometimes with our intuition, we feel like, especially with other thoughts as well that are going on. Sometimes people feel like, oh, I I can't, I can't see, I can't visualize, I can't hear myself think. I can't hear my own voice. And and that intuition, it is gonna look different for everyone. Maybe there, you know, maybe there are things in the way. Maybe there's a trapdoor and you know, you gotta, you gotta chisel through it. Um maybe there's maybe there's a lock and you you gotta find a key to get through and get down to that intuition more. But it's always there, it's always within us. And and it really does feel different for everybody. It can feel like you feel it in your heart, I feel it in my stomach. Um, sometimes it can be um like our third eye as well. Sometimes we feel it just through deep breathing as well. Maybe it's for maybe it's box breathing or that for four breathing, maybe it's um doing progressive muscle relaxation, maybe it's doing alternate nostril breathing, but there's always ways to connect with that inner version and that inner voice within yourself because it's always there. It's just about figuring out what do I need to get rid of in my mind, behavior-wise or thought-wise, because it doesn't deserve my energy, it doesn't deserve my emotional energy, doesn't deserve my mental energy, doesn't deserve my physical behavioral energy in that either.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Yes. And I I want to hear what you do for your own mindfulness because I I'm curious to know what you do for your mindfulness and tr like ideas, not tricks, but I was about to say tricks. It's not tricks. This is this is just real life what you're doing. Um mindfulness, uh skills, things that people could do, you know. Like, do you have a morning routine? Do you have a close out the night routine?

SPEAKER_04 50:47

You know, things like that to really level set your nervous system and become well for me personally, I I am a schedule and routine girly through and through. Um, I live and die by a routine, and there is nothing wrong with that. Um nothing wrong with that. I am the same way. Nothing wrong with that. That's what lets me be the best version of myself. And also I have to say, there's nothing more affirming than having a partner who like knows my routine as well and and encourages me to follow through with it because that is living mindfulness. That's that's holistic living right there. That's living like my best self. Because, you know, there are times where I where I lay there and I'm on the couch and I know my nighttime routine is coming up. I gotta take on my contacts, I gotta brush my teeth, I gotta wash my face. And and it's not that I have to do these things. I want to do these things for myself because I know I'm going to feel better the next day when I do all of these things for myself. But you know, I have moments where I'm like, oh, I really don't feel like getting up right now. And so reframe, I I don't have to feel like doing it to get up and actually do it either. I have the physical capability, even if I don't emotionally feel like it. Um and and you know, my partner is like, hey babe, um it go wash your face so then we can get cozy and we can and we can have like our nighttime cuddles and chill on the couch. And I'm like, yeah, that's a that's a great reward, actually. Like I was And so it's all about, I would say first and foremost, it's about like the community that you have around you. You have to have people who are willing to support you and completely completely understand you and unconditionally love you and who are willing to point out when when you want to do something for yourself, even if you don't emotionally want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Yes, they can see it. It's it's the same thing as we can see things in others, just exactly we're so in our routine it's hard for us to pull ourselves out to see it. Um I appreciate your partner bringing that up. And not in a judgmental way, just in a way of you know keeping you, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:07

I like to call it, especially in the field, I like to call it compassionate confrontation. He's not he's not coming at me. He's not, he's not my dad. He's not saying, go brush your teeth. Uh he's just saying, Hey, I I know you and I see you, and I know that you feel like the best version of yourself when you do X, Y, and Z. So here's your reminder in case you want to do those things. He's not telling me I have to do those things, and he's not going to judge me if I sit on the couch and I fall asleep with makeup on. Um, he's just there to support without judgment as well. We have to have those non-judgmental people in our life to support us to challenge our thinking. Um but back to routines, I didn't mean to go off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

No, it's a great, I I so it's it's so it's so true. Having someone who understands mindfulness and and you're what you're doing is such a a huge help. You feel like you're being pulled forward instead of held back. It's it's beautiful. Exactly. Exactly.

Intuition: Finding Your Inner Signal

SPEAKER_04 54:16

And so, you know, I do have, oh, I love a routine. Um, I start my mornings pretty much the same way. Um, and that's because sleep hygiene is really important for everybody. It's it's, you know, I generally like to tell people go to bed at the same time every day and try to wake up around the same time every day during the week and on weekends because that's going to help regulate you overall. And that's something that helps me. I I gotta get my sleep overall. And then, you know, I I get up, I do my morning routine, wash my face, brush my teeth. Um, I I typically like to tidy up or around the apartment a little bit. And then I usually go to yoga in the morning. I do that pretty much every single morning, as you know, Nikki. 9 a.m. 9 a.m. I am there every single day because that is that practice for me. That is that practice to align my mind, body, and spirit. Because what am I doing during that whole hour that I'm there? I am deep breathing, I am paying attention to my body cues, and I'm listening to what my body is saying and trying to integrate all of that so that because it's not about doing the pose perfectly, it's about doing the pose so that it works for you and it works for your body, and you're able to feel challenged but still breathe during the whole time because you know it it is true that is life. We are faced with challenges in life, but we need to figure out how to effectively get through them, how to effectively breathe through them as well. And so that's what I do for myself. I focus on that in the physical and in the mental realm, I would like to say, and spiritual, because those three are definitely combined when it uh comes to yoga for me. And uh in the nighttime routine, I do have like my bedtime routine, uh, wash face, brush teeth, like I said. Um, whenever I get home from work, I actually always, um, I often wouldn't say always, I often like to immediately change out of my clothes and put on comfy clothes because for me personally, it's like shedding off the emotions from work and excess energy that may have come home with me from work as well, because it I do have a very emotionally taxing job as well. And there are some hard days where work follows me home, even if I don't want it to. And so something that's important for me is, you know, making that creating that distance and creating that emotional change for myself by, you know, literally taking off the dirty emotional clothes and and putting on something cozy, something warm, something that makes me feel comforted as well and and secure because those are important feelings for me. Um, and then when it comes to like every like everyday life, um, I have I have I have so many things I do. I have a I have a journal where I just free journal in it. Um good for you.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

So I mean not just for you, but I'm just thinking out loud. Journaling is such a a beautiful outlet. Even if someone doesn't have therapy covered by their insurance or can't do it, I think journaling is such a beautiful way to connect.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

Because it's because what are you doing? But you are but you are talking with your inner voice and you're writing all of that down. It's not it's not performative. It's it's saying, this is what I am saying, this is what the inner me is saying, this is what my intuition is saying is going on right now. And and you're acknowledging, you know, you're acknowledging if you're if you're emotional, you're acknowledging if people piss you off, you're acknowledging if you have gratitude for something. But that's the key thing, acknowledgement. You're acknowledging reality and what you're living in that moment. And that's why journaling is so helpful. So I love that too. Um, in the spiritual sense, I have my astrological journal. Um, and then to also kind of like I would say like freehand my own creative experiences. I also have a junk journal that I started with my best friend. Um, and I've added a bunch of um tickets, scrapbooking stuff, um, and and memories that are to me as well.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

I love that. Do you look back at it? All the time. All the time. What a beautiful, what a beautiful, tangible thing to have, to be able to look back and see the concert you went to, the film you went to, the dinner you had, the whatever it is. Exactly. That is that's a great idea.

Building Intuition With Mindfulness

SPEAKER_04 59:17

And and you know, I think it's really important for me because I've like I've officially lived about um a little over a year away from my family now since I've moved here to Illinois and and from my best friends as well. And as someone who is a little bit more extroverted and social, um I I really miss those people and my family. And having that tangible item, you know, it makes me feel closer to them. And I have those concrete memories and also that positive, like those pleasant memories that I can always look back at because I've created this keepsake for myself for me to remind myself, yep, that's why, like, that's why they're my family, that's why they're my friends, that's why I show up for them, that's why they support me and I support them because I have these tangible memories to reinforce that that changed thinking, that pleasant thinking, that gratitude thinking as well. That's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

You know, having that it is just having that gratitude for your experiences, your friends, your family. And I think a lot of it is uh directly related to your mindfulness. You teach mindfulness, you help others with mindfulness, and life can get so fast and chaotic that we are always waiting for the next thing, the next thing, especially if we have a demanding job or a family and kids or bill. You know, everyone has bills, you know, the world's so expensive right now. Um but it's there's so much that's thrown at us. We talked about this just a starter interview. There's so much that's thrown to us every day. And taking a beat and thinking, no, I'm really appreciative. I'm appreciative of this. I'm appreciative. It might not be something you have right here and now. That's what I love about you, like reliving memories. I'm appreciative of this thing I did with my um new family member, my niece, or you know, whatever it is, you know, something like that, right? Like it's like these little things that you can go back and have those memories and have gratitude. And that really is such a to me, gratitude pulls me out of my muck when I get into an issue or a or a pain point, and I'm and I'm trying to live there and I'm trying to become the mayor, and I'm like putting down my flag, and I'm like, no, I live here. Things back. I try to turn it around to let's look at what I have and how much of what I have is what I wanted five years ago, three years ago, two years ago, and how grateful I am. And even the smallest things that I'm grateful for. So I I that really resonated with me, like having the junk journal, having something you put tangible things together because mine are all over the place. So I think that's such a beautiful idea. I want to talk about you talked about you, you touched on your sleep and how important it is. Also very important to me. I go to sleep around the same time every evening. I wake up around the same time every morning. There are the offshoots here and there. We might go to dinner or have a family function or something, and you know, you you're late and you're yawning, and you you're you're like, my body doesn't know what where I'm at. Uh, but I read your other blog about functional freeze, and I I just like got this ping about functional freeze, living in sympathetic, and how we were just talking today after yoga about how we have those people that we might know in our lives, or anyone who, when they stop or they just sit or they lay down, they instantly fall into deep sleep. Yes. And I want to hear your expertise on that and hear about functional freeze, what it means, how can we look at it and get out of it?

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Practical Wise Mind Check-Ins

SPEAKER_04 1:03:11

Absolutely. So functional freeze as a whole is um a lesser-known stress response that falls under the umbrella of like the fight or flight survival mechanisms. So there are, I like to say that there are four defense survival mechanisms. There is fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Um, fawn is like codependency, people pleasing, can't say no. You are willing to fawn just to please everyone else that's around you as a survival defense mechanism based on what's going on in life. Um, fight is, you know, pretty classic. I'm gonna fight my way through um because I that's how I was taught. That's how I learned. Like I gotta fight my way through things to survive, to feel safe. The flight is typically running away um from situations. And then there is functional freeze that happens. So functional freeze is a stress response that is trigger triggered by overwhelming circumstances. So there's often a there's often like a mix of symptoms that someone could feel when they are experiencing functional freeze, which can include experiencing emotional numbness or detachment. So that typically looks like or sounds like not being able to name emotions properly, the inability to experience positive emotions consistently, or I like to say pleasant because I don't like positive and negative. Because that's judgment. Um social distancing and withdrawing from situations, um, and having difficulty maintaining and keeping relationships as well. Functional freeze also looks like procrastination and distractability. There is this sense of burnout despite being able to complete and do daily functioning as well. And and people often feel stuck or they feel like they are in limbo between things, but they are not overtly sad because that's the clear difference between like functional freeze and depression. With depression, there is this this hopelessness, this helplessness that is felt. There is suicidal ideation as well. And functional freeze is different. You might be mentally. Checking out, but you're still completing everyday activities, even though you might be on this autopilot mode.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Got it. Are you living in the sympathetic nervous system all the time in functional freeze, or does it adjust and you're kind of here and there with that? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:23

So within that, you are most often in this sympathetic nervous system all the time. If you are in this fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. And so that is because there is this perception of distressful, overwhelming circumstances and situations. And so it uh initiates the body's response in which the body prepares to react quickly to perceived threats that are going on. But if you are in this state and there's no danger going on, but you're still in this, you're still in your sympathetic nervous system as well, we absolutely got to combat that because your your body is now in this chronic activation due to prolonged stress. But that in turn leads to hypertension, anxiety disorders, uh, even metabolic problems. And that can even impact that parasympathetic nervous system for that rest and digest as well. Because if you are in, if your body feels like it's an active stress and chronic stress and in survival mode all the time, then your body isn't going to be able to move into that rest and digest state, which is crucial for maintaining your overall health.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Yes. Okay. And so with that, when someone, whether they're in functional freeze or not, if they're living in sympathetic all the time and they sit or take a break and immediately snore or start to get into REM sleep or whatever it is. Yeah. Is that their body? Is that to me, it seems like, but I'm not a counselor, I don't have um uh expertise or or schooling in this. Yeah. To me, it seems that um their body is so stressed all the time and firing and wiring all the time without a break that when it finally gets a break, it's like capitalizes on that break to let all the organs relax. Okay.

Routines, Sleep, And Nervous System

SPEAKER_04 1:08:33

You got it. Absolutely. It's it's pretty much you that like you've you've pushed your body into into overdrive. And so now it's it's overheating in a sense, and you're just sleeping for like you're just sleeping immediately because your body is already so overactive, and it's just trying to do what it can to help heal whatever is going on as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

Yeah, to help mend and heal, let your organs relax, let your body relax exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:10

And it kicks in immediately because um when that change happens and you know within your body, you know, your conscious and subconscious and unconscious, like they're all they're all at rest at that time, uh, besides your unconscious, obviously. But when you're when your body is falling into that sleep and everything, there there is this shift as well where we're entering into the deeper levels of sleep. And so that means our our brains are also shifting as well into what they're able to do for their functioning too. And so the body is like, oh, we've been going through all of this stress and all of this trauma and all of and we feel this constant fear. So we're gonna immediately fall asleep and we're gonna sleep for 10 hours um to try and sometimes our our bodies like we try to overcompensate um or try to like make up sleep when when that's not actually what's going to be productive overall.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:14

Yes. I see that sometimes, you know, on Instagram or whatever, where someone's you're gonna love how I'm saying this too, Caitlin. Hey chat, can you diagnose this for me? Because that is not my era, my generation, but this teaches me. Hey chat, can you diagnose why if I fall asleep on a Friday, I can wake up at 4 p.m. on a Saturday if I don't set my alarm? And people were responding, like, oh, I think you're insympathetic all the time. Are you stressed? Are you this? Are you that? But uh like from the feedback, it sounded like she was almost in functional freeze where she didn't know she was stressed, she was just living uh in this energy. Yes, and absolutely when we talk about functional freeze, I the thing I wanted to ask you about from the beginning was doom scrolling. So social media has its purpose, it's great. You know, we we connect, I I'm connected with my family, they're hundreds of miles away. I'm connected with friends, they can live overseas, you know, it's beautiful. Let's talk about Doom Scrolling. So, the um for functional freeze, for me, I could see sometimes if I have something to do, I might look at my phone and doom scroll. And before I know it, it's been two hours and I've received nothing. And I've had a wave of emotions, right? Because right now my algorithm is from the the highest high of puppies and horses on a ranch in Wisconsin to the lowest conspiracy theory you can think of. So my algorithm's like, let's go on a journey. You're going to be very depressed and very sad and very mad and very happy. And I go on this journey with doom scrolling without actually doing something I'm procrastinating. Like from your professional opinion, let's talk about Doom Scrolling a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:55

Absolutely uh the the bane of my existence. Right. And and you know, I I truly mean that. And and that's coming from someone who uh I used to doom scroll all the time. And I really, really the the way to get me to stop doing that behavior is I deleted social media. I I am on Facebook and I have simply like 80 friends because it is truly friends and family only.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

Um that's very smart, and you're young, so I I'm actually very impressed that you don't have deleted social media because you you saw it, how it impacted you.

Functional Freeze Explained

SPEAKER_04 1:12:38

Absolutely, absolutely. And and you know, it was a it was a long journey as well because you know uh w when we think about it as well, like I I was born in I was born 96, and so like my parents had like brick cell phones, but then they also had like, oh, like here's like a cool new cell phone as well. And so I grew up with this transition of, you know, not really having not really having internet in my childhood, but then it being my whole entire middle school and like uh high school experience. And that within itself, uh, especially with the access uh that children and teenagers have to social media today, that is an absolute detriment to society. Uh because uh people, there's nothing wrong with looking up to celebrities and looking up to role models and all these people who may be famous, because I've definitely done that before. But we have to accept as well that what they're posting online is not reality. So we can't get caught up in that because it's because it's strictly escapism. That's what doom scrolling is, it's escapism. I I don't have to think about my reality and what's going on and and my stress and my tasks and everything. If I can just if I can zone out on social media instead and just scroll and scroll and scroll. And it also it it fits a lot of the times like shorter attention spans today is what I've noticed overall. Um, because when we think about like TikTok and in reels and shorts and stuff that are on social media, it's 10, 15, 30 second clips as well. Um, and then when you get to longer clips, you you see people technically are typically like fast forwarding through them because they're not willing to sit with the present moment either.

unknown 1:14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:38

And so that can also be a detriment when it comes to doom scrolling and social media too. So to counteract that when you know you may feel that functional freeze, it's it's important to recognize that, you know, it's not just stress. Stress is a trigger, but functional freeze is a nervous system response that can persist even when stressors are very low, or even if there are no immediate stress or triggers in the environment. And and even if you are doing great at work or school, or it doesn't seem like you're struggling, functionality doesn't mean holistic wellness. Many people perform on autopilot while feeling emotionally distant.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

Oh, you have so many good sound bites. Functionality doesn't mean holistic wellness. That's so true. Because we you can be on autopilot and numb to what's being given to you. And again, the whole intuition, you know, the same thing recurring that is not being healed, you know, anything like that. And uh, you know, if you do thrive on parameters and structure, as Caitlin and I do, uh that's that's great to have that structure. Uh and also knowing that things are gonna come in and disrupt that structure, so not getting upset about the disruption and and how do you adjust and and everything like that. I think I think there's a lot more functional freeze than we know because of how much we're thrown at with social. I don't have TikTok, I have Instagram and Facebook and Instagram I go on, we have it for the business. Uh and then um, you know, I connect with my friends on it, etc., send each other funny memes. It's really what I want it for. All of the the humor part of it. Uh, but I've had people show me things on TikTok and my mind is just jam like jumbled because it's so much faster than Instagram, and it it's just the quick, quick, quick dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. When we're just met with ourselves by ourselves, we don't know how and we don't know how to produce our own dopamine, like you know, creating our own mindfulness and the things we love to do, going to the B Twist 20 degrees, those little things that we love to do. Yeah. When it's not given to us all the time, then that that impacts us. And I think there's a lot of functional freeze because we're so used to the constant dopamine hits, whether it's impacting us very negatively or not with our sympathetic nervous system.

Sympathetic Overdrive And Sleep

SPEAKER_04 1:17:17

That instant gratification, absolutely, because like let's think about it too, especially in the form of social media. Um, like like when Facebook and Twitter and everything was first, well, X now. Yeah, those things were first out there. People were literally tweeting and and putting, posting every single thought in their head. Um we before that time, we didn't have unrestricted access to every single thought that every person has. So, so now it's over-stimulation central. We are filled with all of these things that, you know, we think that we're supposed to do, or supposed to listen to, or maybe I should try that, or maybe I should get a dog like this, or look at this cute dog. Like I get joyment out of that, or oh, that's a scary situation. Like, I don't want to look at that video anymore. There's too much input into our in in our daily lives when it comes to social media. And so it really is a brave, a brave and really like aligned choice to say, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, look at social media today, but I'm going to take a break for it tomorrow because I I am aware of the behavior that I did yesterday and how, you know, that really took away from my nighttime routine. And I don't want to do that again today because there's nothing wrong with us loving social media either. But we have to, we have to work within our own boundaries and and have respect for ourselves with those boundaries most like most importantly.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

Yeah, for sure. Honesty with ourselves for what we know is working. And that's again back to knowing ourselves, knowing what's working and what's not working, having having that thought pattern of, well, yesterday XYZ happened and I was on social for two hours. I'm going to take a break from social for three days and then pick it back up. Or even today, when I was on social, I felt really icky. Like there's a lot of icky stuff right now happening that's being disclosed. And in our from a spiritual perspective, we are, you know, wide, like you said, you're opening your energy to everybody, right? Your golden gate's wide open, like we talked about the start of the podcast. Yes. And when you go on social, your golden gates are wide open. You don't, you, your algorithm's there because it's your algorithm, but you're not saying, I want this and this and this and not this and not this. There's just too many options in the world. It's like the a million times Baskin Robin. So you're thrown and you can have this like uh spiritual uh, I don't want to call it attack, but spiritual negativity come towards you that you weren't expecting. So maybe there's a time you're on social and you realize this made me feel really bad today. I could feel my energy drop or I could feel my intuition close off. So I don't want to feel that way tomorrow. Or maybe give an A-B test. See how your days go. A B test one day without one day with.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:20

Exactly. It's all about, it's all about, you know, willing to, willing to see yourself for where you're actually at. And and, you know, be willing to experiment with yourself, be willing to uh address what what are my boundaries here? What are my self-boundaries within this? And and it's all about exploring. You have to, you have to be willing to explore yourself and you have to be willing to face yourself because that's I mean, that's the scariest thing. We like, yeah, we live in our own heads every single day, but like no one else knows what's going on in my head, um, besides for me, unless I verbally say what's going on. And so I when I'm what I'm left with at the end of the day, uh I I think I want to live an aligned life. I think I want to live the life where I'm I'm doing what works for me. And and it's not, you know, it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong for someone else. It matters if it works for me and if it's productive for me and productive for the environment around me. Because there are there are too many judgments, even when it's social media, when it's our everyday world, that we don't need to, we don't need to be so harsh with ourselves. When when the world really is a lovely place, um, I I love finding gratitude and finding joy in the smallest of things, whether it's oh, uh, there's snow on the ground today, or ooh, look at this bird that was outside today. Um, I when you get into your 40s, you're gonna love birds, is what I tell you.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:56

I'll give you my blow.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:58

I'm already on the pipeline there. There's an app, there's all kinds of things that you can do.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:04

Oh my gosh, amazing. Well, I always think it's cool. I think it's genuinely so cool when people can make like bird noises and stuff with their hands. And I'm like, I want I want to whistle like that. Love it. Your intuition's pulling you to know how to bird whistle.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:18

Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:20

No, it's it's it's it's within the family. Uh I I envision it now. Uh my my nana and grandpa always had binoculars um sitting on the windowsill, and my dad does too. So that'll be me in the future. Yes, you're getting. I'm gonna get my binoculars ready.

Doom Scrolling And Escapism

SPEAKER_01 1:22:37

Exactly. The first pair of binoculars at your house, you'll say, Okay, this is the day I turned into my dad or my my exactly. Exactly. And it's a lot of blessing, you know? Yeah, oh yeah, exactly. Um, so to wrap up a question we love to ask, you have such an interesting story, and now you have this perspective of life, this perspective of gratitude, of how you help others and you embody it. Was there a turning point in your life, or did you always know this is what you wanted to do with your career? Or was there a turning point where you felt called to be in service because your job is a service. You help others. Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:17

Uh so oh my gosh, what a loaded answer. I'm here for it. Honestly, I'm I'm here for it too. And you know, I I will say that I've I think I've always been I've always had this draw towards nature, towards spirituality, and and that's something that's always resonated within me. Um, I've always looked for crystals, shells, rocks, you name it, at the beach. I'm I'm there. That's my favorite place to be. Um, I I fully support astrology. Um, and as the sweet baby Pisces that I am uh makes perfect sense as well. I love that. Um but um oops, okay. I am gonna answer this, but my lack. My die, hold on. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:13

That's okay. No problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

We're here for the realness. This is life, and we're going to flow with it like we just talked about. We're flowing with all of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:24

Yes. Oh, well, sorry, this distracted me. What was your question?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

Was there a turning point when you felt that you were being called to be in service and what your career path is? Because you have so many beautiful insights and so much that you give and help others with. Was there something that kind of pulled you in this direction?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:49

Well, um, okay, so obviously, like I said, I always like really resonated with spirituality as well. Um, and that was all in nature, and that was always something that's really important to me. Um, when I was growing up, my my nana, my nanai, my tatai, and my grandpa um were very involved in my life. Those are my grandparents. Um, and they they would take me camping, they would take me on trips, they would take me to the zoo. Uh, they they filled me with joy. Um and and I'm definitely grateful for that, uh, because I'm I'm the in my family, I'm the oldest sibling. Um, and I'm the oldest out of like all of my most of my cousins as well. You have that energy. Like you get shit done. Yeah. I got all this water energy for sure. Um and so, you know, like I appreciate, you know, that I got spoiled, that I got babied, that I got all of that attention because I think it really shaped me into being able to not feel afraid to try anything that I really set my mind to. Um I started in the mental health field, and it was a choice only mostly because I didn't get the help that I needed. Um it I asked for help, I sought out help, and it's it's just not something that that stuck at that time. And that's okay, you know, I've made my peace with it. I don't hold any hold any judgment or grudges anymore, uh, because that's also not who I am anymore either. I mean, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be 30 next month. So that's very different from Pisces, happy birthday.

unknown 1:26:44

Thank you.

Boundaries, Gratitude, And Presence

SPEAKER_04 1:26:45

Uh so that's very, that's very different from middle school me, elementary school me, high school me, college me. That was that was struggling in different ways where I did need help and and I didn't get that help necessarily. Um, so I as a healer, I always wanted to give people that good energy back. Um, because I have enough of it within myself. I have I have so much good, pleasant energy to go around that it literally fills me up to provide some and and give it and share it with other people. Um and so I think that finding this job felt like the most aligned thing for me. I found out about psychology in high school, and I uh that's really when I was like, oh, this is this is it for me. I had not surprisingly, I had always been the therapist friend, the advice friend, the Oh, there it is. Yep, exactly. The sounding board, the holding space. I was always that. Um and and I admire that about myself to be able to have those skills at such a such a young age. And and not, you know, have them developed either. Um, I I think it's amazing for me to be able to feel so confident in those abilities to say, like, yes, this is what I want to do for a career. This is what I want to do for my life. Uh, I am a fortunate enough person to um to say that once I found that in high school, I was like, oh, psychology counseling, this is absolutely what I want to do. Um, I've I've always been fascinated with behavioral health disorders and mental health. Um, and obviously that's because of my own journey, but also I I think it's fascinating, honestly. It's it's so intricate and it's so delicate and it's something that, you know, yes, there can be biological, genetic, and environmental factors, but it shows up differently for everybody. Just because you have depression or someone else has depression doesn't mean you look the same or act the same or have the same symptoms. Just because someone else has anxiety and someone else may have like PTSD, they might have the same sleep issue as well. So I just love that within the field of counseling and therapy, you know, it is about providing energy and providing a service so that people feel empowered to live their lives. And and that's something that I wanted for my life. So I want to be able to provide skills to people so that they can do the same with their lives.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:41

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for being vulnerable and opening up and explaining that because it's so I also I agree. I know you personally through being a your yoga teacher and us just having friendship. And I I do see you. And it came through in your soul blueprint. You were a you're a ball of bright white light, you know, radiant aura. This your aura is magnetic, you radiate every room you walk into. Um, and it's definitely for you to have that uh that pull to help others and use your this gift that you have of your own, you're like a self-generator. You like self-generate your energy and you go and you go and you go, and it's positive energy, and you can help others with your positive energy, and that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:29

That's that's why that's why you know Soul Blueprint resonates so much as well, because I 100% am that generator. I I've I literally have all I've always been that generator, and and that's something that really, you know, resonates with me now too, because I've I've I've always enjoyed the little things in life, and that's what brings that's what fills up my cup. That's how I get my personal joy every single day. And so if I can do that in, you know, a two-minute time span for myself and and feel like I'm at a hundred percent capacity, then yeah, I'm gonna a hundred percent use the rest of that energy to provide people with the skills and tools so that they can feel the same empowerment that I feel within myself because I I've been through it. I have been on the other side of mental health. I've been sitting in the chair as well. Um, and and not and not in not with the laptop in front of me taking notes either. It's it's difficult to be vulnerable with yourself and challenge yourself and and decide for yourself that I'm go I'm not going to live this way anymore because it's it's a choice to live the way that you're currently living. And it's it's a choice to want better for yourself and want different for yourself. I don't want to say better, but want different for yourself as well. And any any choice, any step, any thought, any any awareness towards that is absolutely a moment, a glimpse a second worth working for. Yes.

Personal Path To Counseling

SPEAKER_01 1:32:09

Yeah, you can change your reality just by changing perspective, changing your thoughts, deciding different, yes, uh, honoring yourself. And I love what you said about how you really celebrate these gifts you have. You celebrate the fact that you have these gifts to give others, that you radiate this energy, that you do hold space well, that you, you know, do you naturally have these abilities and you've leaned into them to be able to not only help yourself and your healing process, but also help others too. And there's it's getting better now with your generation and the generation after you, the stigma of mental health and of therapy and of everything like that. Yes. Uh, because I don't and I don't know why it had such a stigma about it, but now with where we are in the world and and there are, you know, there are good things with social and stuff. We're a lot more transparent. So we know each other's struggles. So it might be more comfortable to reach out to someone if you feel you want to talk, get help, get a different perspective. You know, something's not changing in your life, and you would love to have someone else's perspective that can shoot you straight and tell you what's going on with love and then work with you. And that's exactly what you do as a licensed counselor. And it it's it's beautiful. So anyone who's listening, if you feel that you want to talk to someone, you have that um interest, you have that uh pull inside of you, like Caitlin said, life doesn't have to be like what's happening, life doesn't have to be right now what's going on. Like if it if you're not happy with your reality, it can change. Um so you can find a licensed counselor, you can find a therapist by you. Um, and if you're in Illinois, um, Caitlin, can you tell them how they can find you?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:56

Yeah, absolutely. If you're in Illinois, you can find me through Life Stance Health. Um, my full, my full name is Caitlin Coles, and I am an LPC, which is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Illinois. Uh I work in the Highland Park location on the North Shore. Uh, and I do in-person and virtual sessions. So I am willing to meet your needs as well, because that's very important.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:26

Yeah. And we'll have all that in the show notes too. But this has been lovely. I felt like we almost unlocked a part two. So we'll have to come back into more excavating of the vulnerable piece of why of when to say yes to therapy, of that pull back the curtain of a lot of that stigma, et cetera. So that'll be part two at some other point. But I appreciate your how genuine you are, how grateful you are, your energy, your love, how you help others and me, how you help just everyone around you. So we appreciate you and your time that you had here. Um wait to have you back. Yeah, no, I really, really appreciate it. I learned so much, and I think you're such a wealth of knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:08

Oh, thank you. Uh, I had a lovely time, and I am absolutely looking forward to another one.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:15

Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you for being here, and thanks everyone for listening. We'll check you next time. Thank you. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:31

Thank you so much for spending time with us on the Modern Zen Collective Podcast. This podcast is at the heart of everything that we do, created to guide, inspire, and walk alongside you on your journey. If you're ready for more, explore our Practitioner Collective, a trusted resource of experts in healing and wellness to help you deepen your practice or fast-track transformation. And be sure to join our Intel community to get first access to new offerings, challenges, and exclusive website. You'll find all the links in the show notes and next time.