The Restaurant Guys' Regulars

Michael Stern, Road Scholar, Talks About Road Food

Subscriber Episode • • The Restaurant Guys • Episode 1096

Share episode

This episode is only available to subscribers.

The Restaurant Guys' Regulars

Exclusive access to bonus episodes!

The Banter

The Guys talk about a new trend: concierge for teens.

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys catch up with traveling writer Michael Stern who searches for our country’s best roadside restaurants. They discuss the finest dishes he’s encountered and where he finds the best (and worst) places.

The Inside Track

The Guys often road trip through the U.S. and were thrilled to hear Michael and his wife Jane’s theory about a pillar of American cuisine: barbecue. Here is their tip on finding the best places.

“ Jane and I, in fact, developed a whole theory. It's the pigs plus Jesus theory of barbecue. When you're in the deep south, if you go into a barbecue parlor and see a lot of religious iconography on the wall, chances are very good the barbecue is gonna be excellent,” Michael Stern on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2005

Bio

Michael and his wife Jane were trailblazing guides for over 40 years. After meeting at Yale, where they came to study art, they began a collaboration that has yielded over forty books including New York Times best sellers Elvis World and The Encyclopedia of Bad Taste. Michael is co-creator of roadfood.com – the first website to feature photography. 

In 1992, Jane and Michael Stern were inducted into the Who's Who of Food and Beverage in America for their pioneering work discovering regional food. Michael was an editor at Gourmet Magazine for 17 years. The monthly column he and Jane Stern wrote won three James Beard journalism awards. He was a contributing editor to Saveur Magazine from 2010 to 2015. For ten years the Sterns were regular weekly guests on the Public Radio show, The Splendid Table. In 2016 the Smithsonian Institution acquired the Jane & Michael Stern Roadfood collection for its permanent archives.

Info

Michael & Jane's book

Road Food 17th Ed

By Jane and Michael Stern


Roadfood

https://roadfood.com/



On Friday, June 27 Come see The Restaurant Guys LIVE with Chef Andrew Zimmern at the New Brunswick Performing Arts Center in New Brunswick, NJ. VIP tickets include a Meet & Greet After-Party with Andrew. Restaurant Guys Regulars get a discount so subscribe https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe Tickets https://www.restaurantguyspodcast.com/

Our Sponsors
The Heldrich Hotel & Conference Center
https://www.theheldrich.com/

Magyar Bank
https://www.magbank.com/

Withum Accounting
https://www.withum.com/

Our Places
Stage Left Steak
https://www.stageleft.com/

Catherine Lombardi Restaurant
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/

Stage Left Wineshop
https://www.stageleftwineshop.com/

Reach Out to The Guys!
TheGuys@restaurantguyspodcast.com


Francis:

And check out at our website, uh, www.restaurantguysradio.com. And you we are also podcasting on iTunes and Podcast Alley and all those fun internet sites where you can subscribe and have this show sent directly to your computer. Every day we put one up. Good

Mark:

morning, mark. That'd be really fun. Yeah, that is really fun. I have to, you could actually program it so you wake up in the morning to us talking to you.

Francis:

Yeah. Your wife is hard. You have to deal, have to deal with that. That's all I have to say. so what's new Mark? Uh, there's lots of new things. You know, I was, I was reading the paper and I was thinking about your travail, last week to Ohio. To Ohio with the kids in the car and traveling with kids.

Mark:

Travail is a good word for it,

Francis:

and I had an, I had an interesting experience not traveling with kids, but I, I went to Ireland in the spring with my sister and we took my 17-year-old niece who's a charming young woman. but it's interesting traveling with the team, adopted. No genetically related even, but my, you know, that makes no difference. Soul in the family. but we traveled with my, my niece and it, you know, it occurred to me, and it always occurs to me when people come to New York or New Jersey and they, they're like, oh, show us around. And I think. When you're coming with your kids, right? Or you're sending Right. My nephew to see me. Okay. Let's see. What can I do? Cigar bar? No, they don't. You don't want them to show you them around, that's for sure. cause what do I do with my, and I think, all right. Cigar bar, no martinis, no. FEO Schwartz. Come on. I could do the museum uhhuh. But I, but so it's, it's, I think it's interesting to travel with teens and, and I sometimes have to think outside the box because mm-hmm. You know, I don't have kids, so I don't usually run in the. In this, in that circle, in the Chucky

Mark:

cheese circle sounds when the Mars 12, 11,

Francis:

14, 11, whatever that space age restaurant is in New York. But so, you know, I have to think hard about it when I travel. Mm-hmm. And I must say I'm a great uncle, so I come up with cool stuff. But, um, there is now a growing movement of having concierges in hotels for teens. I think it's

Mark:

kind of

Francis:

neat. I think that's really the

Mark:

cruise director for your team. That's

Francis:

exactly right. At the, at the Four Seasons Hotel and Resorts in Chicago, Atlanta, New York, London, Philadelphia, and Toronto. Um, they have these like young twenties mm-hmm. Concierges that are specifically there to help teens not be bored and find something to do.

Mark:

Well, because they're old enough to, to go and venture out on their own, but they're not necessarily old enough to want to go to the museum with their parents

Francis:

or, or, or to go to, you know, or to go to the museum for a little while. Mm-hmm. Not to go to, you know, dinner at the, the fancy restaurant. Right. Maybe they don't wanna do that. Anyway, Lacey Brentley, one of the, uh, teen concierges who's 23. So the teens are sometimes a little intimidated by the regular concierge. said Ms. Brentley, who is one of the concierges, um. She tries to be more casual Greeting teenagers with, how's it going? Instead of, may I help you? Mm-hmm. Um, Ms. Brenley said she's surprised that many ask about comedy clubs, jazz clubs, or the best sushi. Their tastes are a lot more mature than I would remember.

Mark:

I remember spending 12 hours in the Louvre with my dad as a kid. Oh God. And just thinking, oh golly, please don't show me another statue, not another painting.

Francis:

I I, no, no offense to your dad, but your dad, from what you tell me about your great vacations was one of those like Chevy Chase vacation guests. Oh yeah. Monday, Paris, Tuesday, London, Wednesday, Brussels, back home again.

Mark:

Sprinting through the Louvre.'cause you had to go through every corridor of the Louvre. Oh my

Francis:

God. Yeah. I just hate that. I not that, that, that has nothing to do with being a teenager, my friend. That was fun. but I glad I did it. How's that? I, I think it's, I think it's great. Um. As long as I didn't have to do it. but I think this idea of the, the concierge for teenagers is a very interesting idea. I think it's commendable and I think that, um, I think that one of the things that's interesting though is when, when you travel with your family to travel truly together. Mm-hmm. You know, I, I don't like television on. During a family meal. I know a lot of Americans eat in front of the tv. Mm-hmm. Um, and unfortunately the way our schedules work is a lot of Americans don't eat together anymore. Right. Our kids, you know, the one guy before soccer practice and then your daughter after ballet class, and then you have to get on the,

Mark:

or you work at a restaurant and you're not home for dinner frequently. Yeah. But restaurateurs always had that problem.

Francis:

Right.

Mark:

But, but everybody else

Francis:

has

Mark:

a problem now. But, but I love, I mean, there's no TV in the kitchen or the dining room in my house. Right. And we, we just eat at the table and. Right. That's where we share our meals and share our, what's either gonna happen for the day, for breakfast or what happened for the day at, at dinner.

Francis:

I think though that what, what the concierges point to, and a couple of the concierges in this article point to. The difference in taste of a teenager and I think a reason to have a concierge, if you're gonna be somewhere for a week or two, you don't wanna spend every minute together. And you know, some 17 year olds wanna just hang around and play video games. Mm-hmm. Some 17 year olds is six, wanna go on an adventure and some wanna do kitty things and some want to go, you know, have sushi. And I think that that, you know, it's a pretty. Interesting time and, uh, to, and, and it's interesting to, to plan mm-hmm. For that kid. And I think it's great to have that,

Mark:

I realize that, that the concierge and, whether you're in a hotel or a little bed and breakfast is such a valuable person for, because you're traveling in a new city and maybe you have a, a let's go book or, or right. What have you. But the concierge knows, but. The person sitting at that desk knows what's going on in their city, knows what's going on. Certainly within a few blocks of, of wherever you are within walking distance of, of what's hot, of what just happened, of what's going on, of what show is going.

Francis:

And the concierge can also work a little magic. Mm-hmm. I mean, we were in, uh, I was in, we were, I was in, when I was in Ireland, I stayed with some relatives, but my sister and niece spent, um, a couple of days in Dublin.

Speaker 9:

Mm-hmm.

Francis:

Check this out. They're in Dublin. Like I, I wish this happened to me when I was 17. I was gonna seaside heights hanging out at the boardwalk. Uh, so my, my niece is in Dublin with my sister and it turns out there's a U2 concert on Saturday night. Nice. You know, for the U2, the Irish Band. Mm-hmm. In Ireland, in Dublin, right? Yeah. This concert has been sold out forever. Every hotel room in the city is booked up. We, my sister booked a year in advance. the concierge. Got my niece tickets to see two in double. But you know, the concierge said they have the connection. That's what they're paid for. That's their job. You could not have gotten a ticket to see YouTube.

Mark:

You're right, you're right. Well, it's funny, even when we go to California, we, we frequently stay at a place called Brookside Ranch. A woman by the name of Susan Ridley. Mm-hmm. Who, uh, her has a little property, three bedrooms, three bedroom, bed, breakfast right on, on her vineyard, and Susan knows. Everything that's happening. Well, she's connected to the local dinner in Napa Valley. She knows everything that's happening. So you wanna know about that new restaurant? You wanna know about that new vineyard that's just opened? You wanna know where the, where the, the cool tour is. You want her to set you up with, that wine maker that only takes appointments. Well, she's, I mean, it's just, it's really a big benefit to have somebody there who's in the know and

Francis:

who's connected. But one of the things that's very interesting is you hear, mark and I talk about all the time on this show, we talk about. Being part of the local community, eating locally, going to the local places, supporting local small businesses, and that's what's most exciting in any community if you tra if you're traveling just based on some guidebook. Mm-hmm. Um, and only on that, you are really not gonna be able to as fully participate in the area as if when you go to a, a hotel with a great concierge or a small bed and breakfast with somebody who really knows the area. Right. the thing about Susan Ridley is she's connected with what's going on in California on a very fundamental way and in a way that you can't be. So, you know, it's sort of like the opposite of what your dad did when, mm-hmm. The way that your dad traveled when you were younger. I'm sure he does it differently now. I. But to be a tourist is to tour. Mm-hmm. And to like see things as you go by to not really have solid plans set in stone and show up somewhere and maybe have a reservation or two if you have the luxury of doing that and show up in a city and say, okay, concierge, where should I go? What should I see? And. Have the flexibility. Right. You wander, you flexible. I like

Mark:

having a framework of what I'm gonna be doing while I'm there. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, if something comes up that's, that's, you know, more interesting or more exciting, I'm totally willing to change plans. You gotta

Francis:

wander. And we have a gentleman who's gonna join us in the next segment of the show who's an expert on wandering and eating well while you wander. Michael Stern. Uh, has published Road Food, a guide to some of the best road food in America, and he'll be joining us in just a moment to talk about where to get good eats all across the country. Hey, you're back with the restaurant guys, mark Pascal and Francis. Shot from Stage Left Restaurant in New Brunswick. And today we'd like to welcome as our guest, Michael Stern, who together with his wife, Jane, publishes road food, a coast to coast guide to 600 of the best barbecue joints, lobster shacks, ice cream parlors, highway diners in the country. Jane and Michael have eaten in every single one of these 600 roadside joints in their book. Uh, from New Jersey to California and from Vermont to Texas. People Magazine calls their guide an invaluable cross country culinary guide that should be stashed in every food lover's glove compartment. And you can find out how to order one for your own glove compartment on our website later on. Today they've written more than 30 books about America and their road food column for Gourmet Magazine. Has won three coveted James Beard Awards. They also review books for the New York Times and they operate road food.com, an online interactive community of road food, food warriors, and restaurateurs. That's really fabulous with all that behind us. Hi Michael. Hi.

Speaker 9:

How you

Mark:

doing? Welcome to the show, Michael.

Francis:

I

Mark:

sound wonderful.

Francis:

Don't you sound great. You're a genius.

Guy:

I can't

Francis:

believe it. Yeah. Alright, Michael, so you have, written about a lot of things and you have a real expertise on food and of all the foods in the world. Why road food?

Guy:

Oh,

Francis:

it's

Guy:

the best.

Mark:

Okay. That's why you, you know that there's a bunch of people out there thinking road food. They're thinking squirrels that you ran over. I

Guy:

know. That's road still. No. The thing it, it, I mean honestly, I believe in Jane and I believe that America's. Best food is road food. I mean, not that there aren't some great chefs in this country doing fabulous. Well,

Mark:

we're pretty glad you said that because there are seven French chefs listening to this show, sharpening

Francis:

their knives right now.

Guy:

Killed that there is some great upscale food in this country. Uhhuh much more than there ever used to be. However, you know, we see food, it's almost like. Folk art.

Speaker 9:

Mm-hmm. I mean,

Guy:

if you really wanna get a sense of what this country is like, what people are thinking and doing in their hometowns, I mean the, one of the best ways to do it is to sit down in a town cafe or a truck stop, or a diner somewhere, and eat alongside the locals and eat what the locals eat. I mean, for us, it's more than just. Food. It's, it's just a real way of tasting this country in every way.

Mark:

while it's fun to talk about the highbrow restaurants and the types of restaurants that, that Francis and I eat, get to eat in a lot and, own, in reality most of the country, most of the time, most of the time. It, our, ourselves included. Yep. Are eating in in restaurants more like the ones you write about?

Guy:

Well, I think so. And you know, the fact is the kind, you know, the, the really fine dining restaurant is for most people a kind of special occasion thing. Sure,

Mark:

sure. Absolutely. Of course.

Guy:

you know, it's the weekend, it's a big date, it's an animal, whatever, or, or maybe you're just somebody who loves that kind of food. The kind of places we write about are. Sort of everyday things. It's like the difference between classical music and folk music. Mm-hmm. You know, um, the kind of food we write about at its very best is like kind of it's folk art. Our originality Right. Is not a prized quality of most road food.

Francis:

you remind me in, in the way that you write about food, and we'll talk about the food you write about and also the way you write about it. Your guide is very interesting. It's no, you know, zago survey with just a, a quick little, snippet and some scores and points, the way you write about food and talk about food online in your columns and in your books. you remind me a lot of, uh, you're sort of in the spirit of Calvin Trillin.

Guy:

Yeah, well, he's a fellow traveler. I he started a little bit before we did. I mean, he was writing, you know, for the New Yorker about places like Kansas City, Arthur Bryant's back in the, um, early seventies when, when we just had the glimmer of an idea that, that this country needed a book called Road Food. Um, you know, back, it's hard to remember in fact, you know, some 30 years ago how, um, I don't want to say backward, but how, how less. Interest there was in food at every level in this country.

Francis:

You know, Calvin Trillin used to write about when he would, we know, write, he wrote about a lot of things when he, but everyone knew that he was a, a food writer and used to write about great food in America. in a book called The Tummy Trilogy, I think it was. He, he writes about, he said, uh, so I would always show up in some small town in the Midwest, in the mayor or somebody of importance would meet me at the airport and say, oh, Mr. Trilling, we're so glad you're here. We have a fabulous French restaurant in town. Right? And he was always tempted to respond. No you don't. Yeah,

Guy:

exactly. And he also, I also remember his, his comment about how a lot of these restaurants boasted that they served continental cuisine and he often wondered which continent was amped tica because so much of it started frozen. Right, right.

Francis:

That's good. Well, and then he would of course try and ditch that local person trying to steer him to the French restaurant and go find a local barbecue joint. Is that your philosophy as well?

Guy:

Without a doubt. And the, one of the great things about, what has happened over the last. Two or three decades is that I think more and more people are recognizing that their local barbecue parlor, catfish place, lobster Roll Shack, you know, whatever it might be, is really worthwhile interest and special. Special in its own way. It's special in its own way and, and in some ways, you know, I think a lot of people, for example, they grow up in a particular town or region and are so accustomed to whatever their local. Specialty is, you know, I grew up in Chicago and I grew accustomed to great, um, Italian deep sandwiches, which is a real Chicago thing. You don't find it anywhere else. It was only when I moved away from Chicago that I, I realized, man, this is a local specialty because he's kind of take it for granted.

Francis:

Mm-hmm. Don't you find that the local specialties are under assault? As you know, everyone on television started to lose their accent and, and we all start to eat in Olive Garden wherever we are in the country.

Guy:

Oh, I know. Well, that's a con, you know, I'll tell you can get really depressed when you think about the onslaught of the, of the big chains. However, I have to say that when Jane and I. Put together the first edition of Road Food back in the seventies. We honestly believed we were documenting the end of an era that, that, that by the year 2000 there, there would only be the really upscale restaurants for people with a lot of money and good taste and the, and the change

Speaker 9:

right of Taco Bell.

Guy:

And Yeah. But that really hasn't happened. Well, I mean, you know, Jane and I have seen a lot of great restaurants get kind of muscled out of business.

Speaker 9:

Mm-hmm. You know,

Guy:

great mom and pop restaurants, Uhhuh get muscled out because, you know, A-T-G-I-F or whatever moves into town. But the fact is that because we Americans have become more appreciative of our local cuisine, I think a lot of it is holding on where it might not have held on 20, 30, 40 years ago.

Mark:

Do do you think it's actually swinging back the other way? Or do you think that that McDonald's and those places are, are continuing to take it?

Guy:

Well, deeper roots, you know, there, there's no stopping the franchises. I mean, they've got the money, they've got the muscle. How, however, I've seen a lot of examples. You know, I haven't taken a survey, but I've seen a lot of examples of, of wonderful, one of a kind local restaurants. Actually getting passed on to a new generation.

Francis:

That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's something that we as, as restaurant owners and, uh, consultants for small restaurants, love to see. We're here talking with author Michael Stern and we're talking about his book Road Food. And we'll be talking more about where you can get great, great road food across the country and right here in New Jersey. In just a moment. one of the things we talk about in Jersey all the time is I sat on the board of directors for the New Jersey Restaurant Association for many years and whenever we would get involved in the National Restaurant Association,'cause there's an affiliation between the state associations and the National New Jersey Restaurant Association was always these little mom and pops dominated the board and dominated our membership. Mm-hmm. But in most other states it was McDonald's, burger King, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Boston, you know, let us entertain you, be our guest. These big, big groups is the mom and pop more found in the Northeast? Or where, where do we find more mom and pops? Where do we find more chains?

Guy:

Well, that's, and that's an interesting question because in fact, you know, road food, some people will complain about our book because we have, you know, we might have like 30 restaurants listed in New Jersey and three in North Dakota.

Speaker 9:

Mm-hmm. Right.

Guy:

Um, and that's, you know. Great road food is really a reflection of the population and in places, you know, like the northeast, you know, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, even up into Maine or places like the, the, the Gulf Coast, you know, the deep south, um, new Orleans. You find this, these kind of really, um. Heterogeneous populations

Speaker 9:

mm-hmm.

Guy:

That lend themselves to just great food. You know, some of those kind of, uh, Italian American, you know, French American, whatever slash American cuisines as well as cuisines that have developed here, indigenously places where there are. Strong concentrations of population. You find tons of excellent road food.

Francis:

Well, there are 37 people in South Dakota. I mean, how many restaurants can they support? Exactly. It just

Guy:

doesn't make sense for, you know, a great, wonderful mom and pop restaurant to exist in every little town in South Dakota, however, you know, in New Jersey or southern Louisiana for us to find great road food. It's like, you know, shooting fish in a barrel,

Francis:

Uhhuh. Well, you know, it's funny, I traveled across. I, I have a motorcycle and sometimes I'll, head out Midwest and I like to ride on the Blue Highways and, and I didn't have your book the last time I did it, and so I'll have to have your book in my saddlebags next time I go. But I, I would often find myself traveling in like the, the West Virginia area in like border of the Midwest and the south. I, I just

Mark:

went, I just actually just went through West Virginia last week

Francis:

and boy, is your book necessary?'cause out there, it's not shooting fish in a barrel. It was like, it's

Mark:

Waffle House,

Francis:

Kentucky Fried Chicken,

Mark:

McDonald's, burger King. There's

Francis:

actually, I mean, the worst abomination is held in the name of this chain. The Eaton Park. Oh, great. Do you, have you ever heard of the Eaton Park? No. No, I haven't. Just didn't walk inside. But I thought

Mark:

that is just where we're going. But literally, I, I was going through at West Virginia just last week, like I said, almost seven and literally every exit. Has a McDonald's,

Guy:

there's nothing to eat. Well see, West Virginia is a tricky one. Mm-hmm. Because some of the great specialties in West Virginia, the road food type specialties are oddly enough not found in restaurants. They're found in the most unlikely like convenience stores. Right. And

Mark:

bakeries. You know, it's funny that you say that'cause we stopped in a town'cause the baby was screaming, stopped in a little town and I refused to go to one of the chains. And so we went to one of these, what looked like a little convenience store place. And they were serving delicious fried chicken and uh, you know, you could buy a bottle of water for the road or whatever, but, but it, it had little tables inside of it. Really unique place, I thought. Yeah. Well

Guy:

that, that's one of the tricks of, of, of road food in, in some places, is that it, they're not, it's not served in what you would imagine, you know, the classical small town cafe with the little calico curtains. I mean, in, in West Virginia, for example, one of the great specialties there. We didn't know about this for years. Mm-hmm.

Francis:

Because

Speaker 9:

we

Guy:

just didn't know to look for it, is what they call the pepperoni roll.

Francis:

And we're gonna find more about the pepperoni roll when we come back after the news. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, before the news, you were talking to us about a specialty that West Virginia is known for.

Guy:

Yes, it's uh, it's known primarily only the West Virginians who live there because it hasn't traveled far. It's called the pepperoni roll, which is something that I think we, in the northeast, knowing great Italian food like we do, can appreciate it was actually invented. Back in the 1920s at a local bakery as a food that miners could take, eat into the mines with them easily. Sort of like the past, the up and the upper peninsula of Michigan. What it is is like a pizza like dough wrapped around pepperoni sticks that is then baked. And what happens, it's really delicious, is that the pepperoni sticks have enough oil in

Speaker 9:

them mm-hmm.

Guy:

That the oil kind of saturates the dough.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 9:

Um,

Guy:

and you know, you and these are, they're portable. They're absolutely delicious. Some recipe

Mark:

sounds horrible for you. And spectacular.

Guy:

Yeah. Well, what food isn't, I mean, what worthwhile food is

Francis:

now. Now, how do you eat this? Do you like eat it like a lollipop or do you slice it and eat it?

Guy:

No. Well, that's, it's in the convenience stores that serve it and bakeries. You just eat it like a lollipop, you know, just chow down on it. Mm-hmm. Like you would a roll that happens to have this thing inside. There are a few places that serve it on a plate topped with sauce, so it becomes almost like what we might call a calzone, you know? Mm-hmm. That's

Francis:

a meat stick. Yeah, it's just a meat stick. How glorious is

Guy:

that? Yeah. Meat and bread, you know, with some. Sauce on it. I'm happy.

Mark:

So what other regional specialties are, let's start with the Northeast. What other regional specialties are there?

Guy:

Well, for example, uh, you know, if you're traveling along the coast of Maine, you want a lobster roll.

Speaker 9:

Mm-hmm. I mean,

Guy:

we just did that. Uh, actually I'm saying that'cause we just did it a few weeks ago and boy, the lobster rolls you get at places like red's eats in Wi Gasset or the clam shack in kind of bun port are so spectacularly good. I mean, it's the meat of over, of more than the meat from a whole one pound lobster. Piled into a bun and drizzled with melted butter. That's all. What's better than that? Now?

Mark:

What more do you need now?

Francis:

Let me, now, let me ask you, when, when you find places that are sort of remote from the region or some places that do the. The weak imitation. What, what, what do they do wrong? Let's say, let's talk about the lobster roll or the Philly cheese

Mark:

steak, or, yeah.

Guy:

Well, you know, there are all kinds of things they can do wrong. I mean, the thing about a a, a great lobster roll is that that meat has been picked out of a lobster within. Mo minutes, uhhuh of it being put in the bun

Mark:

as opposed to coming in a frozen bag to Bennigan's. I,

Guy:

we once went to a restaurant in, it was in, um, in northern Michigan and they had some lobster dish on the menu and we thought, you know, you know, Michigan is not the place you're gonna order a lobster. Right? But we had to ask, we asked the waitress, we said, is this lobster fresh? And the waitress said, oh yes, I just saw the chef open the can

Francis:

that's. And that's when you said, you know what? My wife is feeling Ill, can we have a check? You know what my fa you know, that brings me to like, you know, corporate agribusiness has all these ways to fool you into thinking you're, you're eating something that you're not or you're not eating something that you are. My favorite line is if you go into the supermarket aisles, you'll see fresh, frozen. What does that mean? Well, it means that it was fresh when they froze it, but it's not anymore that, as opposed to the people who let things rock as opposed a spoiled frozen. Exactly. Yeah. That's Everything was fresh. Once everybody, you know, it's a broken clock, right? Twice a day. Well, one of our favorite regional American foods and that you write about pretty widely in your book is, is barbecue. Yeah. I think that's one of the most fascinating, uniquely American foods. Can you talk to us about barbecue?

Guy:

Yeah. Well, I mean, we could have done an entire book. Devoted only to barbecue. I be. Just because there are so many different regional variations of barbecue. Mm-hmm. You know what the basic one, of course being, you know, in Texas you get beef. In the Carolinas you get pork, but then in, you know, western Kentucky, you get mutton.

Speaker 9:

Right. And what

Guy:

kind of wood is it smoked over? Mm-hmm. And does it have sauce? And if it does have sauce, what kind of sauce? And is it a mustard sauce? Is it, is it tomato sauce? Is it vinegar sauce? Is it just in a kind of a juice from the beef? You know, the varieties are endless. Not to mention. All the requisite side dishes in certain areas. You know, like in some places it's hush puppies. In other places it's just a stack of sunbeam white bread.

Francis:

Does anybody anywhere make good bread that goes with barbecue? That's always my disappointment.

Guy:

Well, I've had barbecue served on excellent rolls, and let me tell you, it was extremely confusing to my pal. In some ways, I, I have come to believe that bad bread. It's, it's, it's there to sop up sauce and if it has a taste and texture of its own, it gets, it's confused,

Speaker 9:

gets in the way. You're right.

Guy:

I mean, good, excellent barbecue and excellent bread are, are two things that are seldom if ever found together on a plate.

Mark:

I think that that one of the things that, that. Lends barbecue to, to being so regionally, uh, different and, and people putting so much heart and soul into it is it takes so long. Great barbecue takes 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours sometimes to, to create. So people are putting their heart and soul into barbecue and which, which I think in turn you, you have people taking a little more care to make it.

Guy:

You're absolutely right. Barbecue requires a kind of devotion that by definition is gonna create something special. Um, it's not unless you, you use that everybody's favorite liquid smoke, that flavor. Um, it does take time. And, and you know, Jane and I in fact developed a whole theory of, It's the pigs plus Jesus theory of barbecue that when you're in the deep south, if you go into a barbecue parlor and see a lot of religious iconography on the wall, chances are very good. The barbecue is gonna be excellent

Speaker 9:

cause there's a similarity. And I'm not

Guy:

trying to be smart about, there's a real similarity between devotion

Speaker 9:

uhhuh

Guy:

to one's faith and devotion to barbecue. It takes time. Barbecue is a

Speaker 9:

faith man.

Mark:

It

Guy:

is. Yeah. There you go.

Francis:

one of the things that's very interesting about barbecue is we talk all the time about how America, at least in, in a lot of parts of America, are getting increasingly good taste. the rise of the celebrity chef and the TV food channel and all the cooking shows on tv, I think is, is lending to America having increasingly good taste but one of the areas that people have always had good taste and been really passionate about what they like and what they don't. When people get into arguments about is. You know,

Guy:

well, you're right. And that, and that's a rarity. I mean, because I think you're absolutely on the ball when you say that. I don't think it's even going too far to say that we've had a kind of culinary renaissance in this country over the last 20, 30, 40 years.

Francis:

I don't think that's an exaggeration at all. No, I agree. I

Guy:

think because when you think what it was like, I mean, I'm old enough to remember what it was like in the early seventies. I mean, it was a sad scene in terms of finding good food at any level, you know? Mm-hmm. Uhhuh, um, it was tough, and I think there is a renaissance, but you're right, there are some foods, I mean, I think. Barbecue is one. Chili is another one you could start a civil war

Mark:

over. Right? Well isn't that what the Civil War was started over? Yeah.

Guy:

Could be.

Francis:

Now you, now you have 600 restaurants in your guide. You've eaten at each of these restaurants.

Guy:

Well, we've eaten at probably 6,000 to find those 600. I mean, you're

Francis:

a busy guy. Well, you know, we,

Speaker 9:

you must be very fat

Guy:

six restaurants that we like best, and you find one that's worth recommending. You've got eat in at least a handful of ones that are maybe just okay or worse.

Francis:

Mm-hmm.

Guy:

Do you spend all your time on the road? Uh, about half maybe.

Francis:

And you just go from place to place and we eat? Yes. And will we blessed

Guy:

with excellent appetite. Will you do two lunches a day?

Francis:

Will you do two lunches a day? Two? No. I mean, we will

Guy:

on a really good day. And if we're in a place that is road Food rich

Speaker 9:

Uhhuh,

Guy:

um, we might. Go into a 10, 12 restaurants.

Speaker 9:

Oh my God. Which

Guy:

isn't say we're gonna have 10 or 12 full meals, you know? Right. Because we have to be able to order something. And if it tastes only mediocre, just, you know, appetite. Push

Francis:

it aside. Your book, I, I alluded to earlier that it's not as a got survey. It doesn't say visit this place. Mm-hmm. 26 points. People say, uh, have the ham, you know, it's, it's, you write. Little stories about each of these restaurants really. And, and what do you, what do you do that's differently? How would you classify your unique way of reviewing these places?

Guy:

Well, as I said earlier, for, for Jane and me, what we're looking for is not only delicious food, but. An experience. Mm-hmm. Um, that kind, that sings of its place and region. So that means we wanna know about how the food is presented to you, how you get it. You know, some places you stand at the counter and you take a number. Mm-hmm. Other places it's dished out by a by a rude waitress, you know? Whatever, you know, the whole experience of getting the food is important to us, including, you know, accents. So how do the people speak? What are the, what's their slang,

Speaker 9:

uh,

Guy:

particular kind of food? So when we write about a restaurant, it's really crucial for us to not just say, here's what you get on a plate, but here's what's gonna happen when you walk in the door, or maybe even when you come into this town.

Speaker 9:

Mm-hmm. Right.

Guy:

and that's what we're trying to capture when we write about these places.

Mark:

So do you only, do you only write about. The the places that make it to your column or to your, to your book. So those are, those are places that you're recommending. You've already weeded out the ones that you don't recommend?

Guy:

Yeah. It's our feeling that nobody needs, and in fact, nobody would buy a book that was a guide to all the places we really didn't like eating. Oh. Places to avoid Traveled around the country.

Mark:

I actually might buy a book of places to avoid, although I think you could do a short book of very

Francis:

funny anter reviews or a little appendix at the back of how the horrible Places you've been. What is the, what is the what? Have you had any like truly comical experiences of, of just, oh my God, get me outta here.

Guy:

Yeah. Oh yeah. We have had some, um, you know, really hideous food. Simply because, you know, the cook or chef made some terrible mistakes. I mean, I remember an omelet that we got in Oklahoma once that was really the texture of a Michelin tire. Um,

Speaker 9:

I think, you know, I don't,

Guy:

you know, stuff like that happens all the time. But the really funny stuff is what happens when, when what we are served is exactly the way it's supposed to be.

Francis:

Like, give us an example.

Guy:

Well, for example, chitlins steamed in vinegar.

Francis:

Oh, now

Guy:

you know, a fried chi is, you know, that I can take or leave chitlin steamed in vinegar. Imagine the. Of this dish. Have you ever Well, it's down in southern Virginia. This is a favorite in a lot of restaurants.

Mark:

Okay. You talked about the pepperoni roll. I was hungry. You've cured that problem.

Francis:

Have you ever had snoot? Oh yeah. Now

Guy:

s Snoop's pretty good.

Francis:

Oh, come on. No, is I'm returning your book right now.

Guy:

In St. Louis, we had, there's a place called C and k Barbecue Uhhuh in St. Louis, Missouri, where we avoided Snoots for many years. Finally, we decided we'd be brave. We'd order them, and I. Like a pig snout on a plate. Uhhuh. In fact, it's not, it's like strips of meat. It's sort of like coochie Fritos. It's

Francis:

it's strips of me taken from the pig snout on the plate. Yeah.

Guy:

You don't deny this, but you know what's worse than snoots? I mean, if snus are bad, I thought, well, since I enjoyed snoots a little bit, maybe I should order pig ear, which was also on the menu.

Speaker 9:

Yeah, yeah.

Guy:

What I got was literally one pig ear. That's that's how they

Mark:

serve

Guy:

two pieces of bread.

Mark:

They're really served that way. They really actually serve you. Pig. Okay. I'll take the

Francis:

Silk purse everybody. We'll leave the pigs here. You know, it's funny, we did a show from the, uh, Big Apple Barbecue Festival. Mm-hmm. And we interviewed a woman who served me s Snoop for the first time. And I got her on the radio and I swear she said to me, I'm gonna win a James Beard Award for this. She was great. She

Speaker 9:

said,

Francis:

he said, now she explained it to me and I was sort of incredulous as to what it was. It was the posterior of the nose of the, and I said. You eat that? And she said, we serve it all from the router to the Tudor. I thought I neither want the router nor the Tudor. I'll just take the thing in the middle. The middle. I would like the middle. Please call me a snob if you want. So what about New Jersey, man? You've written about New Jersey and everything in New Jersey. You write about's a hotdog.

Guy:

Well, not entirely. We do write about these spectacular, hero sandwiches down at

Speaker 9:

the White House. Wow. Down in the White House City. Yeah.

Guy:

there are a lot of good places to get such sandwiches in the Delaware Valley, but I, I really still think that the best on Earth are there.

Speaker 9:

Mm-hmm. Um,

Guy:

and you know, people who think they've eaten one because they had one in New York. City or in Hartford? No, no. Have no idea what they're talking about. You know that's true.

Mark:

I mean, there are people in this state who drive to To Atlantic City. Yeah, well, to gamble. And then they get a, they

Guy:

get a it's, and they drown their sorrows. What happens?

Francis:

Literally, there's no way I'm leaving Atlantic City without stopping. Not, not a chance. No. It's one of the greats, you know. Well, we're Mark Mark's originally from Nutley, which is in Essex County, New Jersey, which is the county that Newark is in, and I'm originally from Orange. And, um, so all of your like Newark hotdog Yeah. Uh, places that you recommend. Oh yeah. You really hit the nail on the head there.

Guy:

Well, that's one of those local specialties that I think locals take for granted.

Francis:

Oh, no.

Guy:

And we had, we, we didn't even know about them ourselves until many years ago. Martha. Stewart told us, you know, as a native, really? Oh, she's from Nutley. She said we, she was the one who recommended ruts hut to us. Rut. Rut hut. Lemme

Mark:

tell you, if you're from that region,

Francis:

oh my God, yeah. Ruts hut is an icon. Mark and I live 45 minutes away from there when we're down here in New Brunswick and we would drive up to North Jersey for a hot dog and people say You're driving 45 minutes for a hot dog. You don't understand.

Mark:

The problem with Ruts hut though, was it closes at like 11 or 12 o'clock and you the time you really want a ruts hut dog. It is about 1:00 AM. 2:00 AM That's

Guy:

a long night. It's a killer, pure

Mark:

method of hot dog eating, right?

Francis:

You know what else I love about your book? You really capture ruts hut, which is this dive on 46, where it's all stainless steel and the guy yells into a microphone to the short order cook to make you your fried hot dog. Yeah. And you capture lingo, which I go at ruts you site where they order twins all the way, which is two hot dogs with mustard and relish. Yes. My favorite thing when I go there to order. Is I order, an two hot dogs and an orange soda because you know what this short order cook SL lingo for that is no two rippers and a howdy. A howdy, Ady, Howie, orange soda, howdy duty, howdy duty, orange hair, orange soda. It took me about a year and a half. That's, I never knew this. I. Took me about a year and a half to figure out what a howdy was. I don't even like orange soda. I just like hearing them say that in the microphone.

Guy:

Well, see, that's my point is that the whole experience of eating there, I mean, it's part of why that hot dog is so delicious.

Francis:

You got it.

Mark:

But Michael, what I. What we wanna talk to you a little bit now is your, your website, road food.com,

Guy:

Well, I, I tell you, it kind of grew it, it's one of those things we started several years ago. I mean, I, I don't have the expertise to do it, but a, a good, uh, a. Fan named Steven Rushmore, who's a computer expert, started it and it's grown tremendously. We have these forums for, for not only people who like to eat in restaurants, but for restaurateurs as well.

Mark:

I, I saw the, the, the restaurant professionals section. It was very good.

Guy:

Yeah. And, and, and what I love about it is that, um, you know, as good as Jane and my appetites are, we can't eat everything all the time, but road food.com has a way for. Uh, you know, people who use the site can submit their own reviews in places.

Francis:

Mm-hmm. Now, do you edit those at all and say, oh no, that's crap. I'm not putting that up there. We

Guy:

have somebody who does that, who's like a real road food connoisseur who not only edits them, but figures out which ones are, um, written by the restaurant owner themselves.

Speaker 9:

Um,

Guy:

so they, they are kind of screened, we don't want to post just. Junk. But I mean, I just think it's wonderful that it's open to appetites all over the country,

Speaker 9:

right?

Guy:

To, um, you know, to post reviews of places that real road food fans ought to know about.

Francis:

Well, and, and you have on the website, you, you know, you only list six or seven places. Uh, for New Jersey for example. On in your book, which you visited personally, but there are 18 places listed on your website and then, and it's really amazing the detail you get if you click on these places names. Like if you click on Ruts Hut and you get a picture of Ruts Hut, you get a sample menu from Ruts Hut. Yeah. Very interesting. Okay, hold on, on, hold

Mark:

on, hold on. All right. Ruts Hut doesn't really have a menu. It's very short.

Francis:

It's very, very short. They

Guy:

have that. That, that room where you can actually go and sit down. They actually do have a sit down

Mark:

place, but, but nobody I know has ever actually been in that room. It

Guy:

looks interesting.

Francis:

I have plug for being a Jersey guy. Right across from Jimmy Bus in West Orange, two blocks away, there's a place called the Star Tavern for pizza. Ooh. Best pizza in New Jersey. Oh, it is not. New

Guy:

Jersey has some excellent pizza too.

Francis:

Yeah. There's no pizza in your book on Jersey.

Guy:

I know. We have to go to Lorenzo's in Newark. People have been, have been killing it. Uh, it's, I haven't done That's

Francis:

good. I say Star Tavern in Star. Really? And it's in Orange, right across the West Orange barter. It's two blocks from Jimmy Buffet. Off the air,

Mark:

off the air. We'll give you some more suggestions. Okay.

Francis:

Hey, we wanna thank you for taking the time to join us, Michael.

Guy:

Pleasure. Thanks.

Francis:

Thanks so much. It's been terrific and we're gonna put your link you up to our website so people can find you through us. And your book is just invaluable. It's really great and I'm gonna stick it in my saddle bags for the next time I go on a little motorcycle. It's in my glove box

Mark:

as we speak.

Francis:

Alright, thanks. Alright, take care Michael. Bye-bye. Have a great day. Thanks. What an interesting fellow. What a great book. Michael Stern, who publishes Road Food and Road food.com, writes for Gorman Magazine, and he writes about other stuff too. It's not just, uh, about food. He's writing 30 books about America in general.

Mark:

But the reality is every single one of us spends time on the road driving from place to place. And the choices, if you don't have a resource like this, are fast food or take a chance on some place that you've never heard of

Francis:

and, and there's fast food that you can get that's actually real. I mean, we have Tasty Subs, the Tasty Subs, the 2D two different towns are in, what are the two towns?

Mark:

one's in Edison, one's up in like South Brunswick,

Francis:

that's a subs shop. That locally is really good. And it's not owned by a corporation. It's owned by a guy. Right. Or Jersey Subs in, uh, new Brunwick Jersey Subs in New Brunswick is a great place if you're in downtown New Brunswick to go and. I would always rather go to a place that's owned by an individual and take my chances rather

Mark:

well.'cause generally they have a little bit more invested in it.

Francis:

Well, I'm Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys, central Jersey 1450. Time is 12 noon.