Aldo Sohm, Best Sommelier in the World 2008

This is a Vintage Selection from 2008

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys talk with Aldo Sohm about what it took to be pronounced The Best Sommelier in the World. They talk about wine competitions, formal wine service and pairings –both the wine with food and, most importantly, the guest with wine . 

The Inside Track

The Guys have enjoyed Le Bernardin where Aldo is the sommelier. They all love the business they are in and Aldo states it simply.

“What is more beautiful than eating and drinking?” Aldo Sohm on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2008 

Bio

Aldo Sohm earned the title “Best Sommelier in the World 2008,” Aldo oversees a 15,000 bottle wine collection at Le Bernardin and his namesake Aldo Sohm Wine Bar. He was awarded M. Chapoutier prize for the Best Sommelier of Les Grandes Tables du Monde in 2019 and Wine Spectator’s Grand Award for Le Bernardin's restaurant wine program in 2021.

Aldo released his first book Wine Simple in 2019. He is the ambassador for Zalto glassware by Denk'art, has designed his own signature Laguiole corkscrew. 

His has a TV series "An Austrian Wine Journey" ("Eine österreichische Weinreise").

Info

Aldo’s site

https://aldosohm.com/

Le Bernardin, NYC

https://www.le-bernardin.com/

Our Places

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https://www.stageleft.com/

Catherine Lombardi Restaurant
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/

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https://www.stageleftwineshop.com/

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Transcript

0:40

Hey Mark. Hey Francis. How are you this morning?

Mark 0:42

I'm doing very, very well. How are you?

Francis 0:44

I'm, I'm well indeed. I I'm, I'm glad to be back in the, in the restaurant Kai Radio chair.

Mark 0:50

Yeah. We took a little time off. It was, uh, well deserved, I think.

Francis 0:53

Yeah. And we're gonna start today's show. on Aldo. So Aldo, so is the, sommelier La Bernadin restaurant with Eric Repair, who's been on our show. He's the chef owners Eric Repair. you know, being a fish chef, we've, you know, we've talked with Rick Moon and one of the other great fish chefs in the country, about how you cook fish. It's a very delicate art and. That's why very often your mediocre cook is best doing as little to fish as possible, and just cooking, getting fresh fish and leaving it alone. That's not what Eric repair does. He leaves this great fish to speak and show you the quality ingredients, but his food is very inventive and interesting. And we're gonna talk with his sommelier on Aldo. So Aldo, so is just elected this year, the best sommelier in the world. should be a lot of fun. We're gonna talk about how to, to pair great wines with great fish. and that is about the, the highest. Culinary Highwire Act you can, manage and we'll do that in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant guys Aldo, so was the best American sommelier. That's an official title, 2000 and. Seven. He's the sommelier at Larna Dan Restaurant with our friend Eric Repair, who is the chef owner of Larna Dan. And he was also recently named the Best sommelier in the world in May, 2008 at the International Association of Sommelier's Competition in Rome.

Mark 2:03

Aldo, welcome to the show.

Aldo 2:05

Hello. How are you?

Francis 2:06

Well, you know, um. Whenever you're considered the best in the world at anything. That's, that's a, that's a pretty hefty title. We're pretty honored to have you on the show.

Aldo 2:13

Oh, thank you. It's my pleasure.

Francis 2:15

Now, talk to me about how you get to be the best sommelier in the world. What is the International Association of Sommelier's Competition? I, I mean, I know what it is, obviously, but for our audience, it's not exactly like, you know, I think there's a difference between saying being Top Chef or Iron Chef, which is sort of geared for a television audience. Um, this isn't really geared for a television audience. This is a, a, a recognition of, of view among professionals, among your peers.

Aldo 2:39

Uh, yes, it's very, uh, focused in Europe, especially, uh, because in America Masters. So education is a big importance. Mm-hmm. And it has also in the united, uh, in the United Kingdom, but that's about it in Central Europe, January. Those competitions are pretty big and everyone spends a major focus into that because, um, it's quite a hard, work to go there.

Mark 3:03

So. So what's hard? How, how are you being graded while you're there? Well,

Aldo 3:06

most of the people think, you know, we, we recognize the most wines, and that's the best formula. Uh, it will be too easy. It's a written, it's writtens about, uh, wine growing, uh, uh, wine loss, uh, wine growing areas, villages, certain vineyards, uh. Vintages even about, uh, coffee, cigar teas, liquors

Francis 3:26

now. But is there a practical component to it as well? Is there a service component to it or a blind tasting component?

Aldo 3:31

That's one part of theoretical. The practical part is to doing even the wine service.

Francis 3:35

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 3:36

Uh, champagne service. Uh, everything is in a time pressure.

Francis 3:40

Now, how do you do this? Do you do it, do you serve other sommelier in a mock dining room?

Aldo 3:43

No, it's, uh, those are judges, independent judges, Uhhuh, uh, where you have to serve. Mm-hmm.

Francis 3:48

And,

Aldo 3:48

you know, they judge how you work. Give you points.

Francis 3:51

Well, now, You took the title of Best Sommelier in the World, for America. You competed on behalf of, you were the American, entry into that competition. Well,

Aldo 3:59

yeah, that's kind of Murphy's Law, you know, as you hear from my accent, uh, I'm not from New Jersey, from Brooklyn.

Francis 4:05

You stole my joke. That's exactly how I was gonna put it. Um, yeah. So, so tell us how you came to represent America and tell you how. Tell us how you came to America. You're, you're Austrian. I'm

Aldo 4:15

originally Austrian, yeah. And I won actually, even in Austria, Western, in Austria four times. And that actually made me move to United States because, um, those competitions always held in a foreign language that's mandatory. And I picked always, uh, English, but my English was not good enough. So, you know, there was no choice, you know, either, you know, resign. From competing or doing better and going a foreign country, you know, to. It fluent in the language.

Mark 4:44

So in, in order to immerse yourself in the language, you just decided to move here and become a sommelier here?

Aldo 4:49

Uh, yes. Uh, of course my best friend asked me if London wasn't far enough London, and it got the right vibe.

Mark 4:56

That's a pretty serious dedication though, Aldo I moved to Europe, but I did it for three months. You know, it was, I, I didn't move my whole life or. Five years to a different place.

Francis 5:06

Well, I, I think this gives you a unique perspective. I mean, as, I guess a lot of folks have, uh, a perspective of coming across, going one way or the other across the Atlantic. But how, how is being a sommelier different in the United States than it is in central Europe?

Aldo 5:20

Um, it's different because you have, especially here in New York, um, you know, the culinary business works a little bit different. And it's also a little bit more concentrated, meaning you have so many different cultures, altogether, which of course you have to open your perspective a little bit because you have to know what's going on in, in Japanese cuisine. Also, you have to know what's going on in French and possibly certain chefs, you know, combine those flavors, which is even the more challenging,

Francis 5:49

well now you work for Eric, repair a French, uh, chef cooking in America, but probably, you know, one of the most celebrated, or certainly one of the most celebrated chefs in America, former guest on our show. do you specifically like working in a, in a French environment? Because I understand that being in New York, you need to, uh, be very aware of a lot of different cuisines. But actually, but working for Eric Repair, do you need to be aware of a lot of different, different ethnic cuisines?

Aldo 6:11

Uh, yes, because he is a very, he has a very playful way of cooking. He uses a lot of different flavors and very delicate flavors. And his fish, he cooks it always in a very light way. Which is for me once in a while, a little tricky, you know, in order to don't overwhelm with the wine, the food,

Speaker 3 6:28

Uhhuh,

Aldo 6:29

Uhhuh, and rather a marry dose

Francis 6:31

now, you know, being the best sommelier in the world. One of the things that I think people assume, and that is certainly true, is that if you're the best sommelier in the world, you are the guy. Um, who, if someone is gonna spend a lot of money on wine, or someone's very knowledgeable about wine, they really want to go to you because you know you are the expert in the field. You can, you can bring people a novel adventure, but I know that you believe as well that the sommelier has a great duty to someone who's a novice in wine or someone who may not know very much about wine at all. What, talk to us about that and how telling

Aldo 7:02

the truth. That's for me, uh, I have more fun doing that. Than the other. Mm-hmm. Because what is for me is always on the end of the day, nothing is more pleasurable than you see someone coming in at Berda, possibly for the first time. You see that right away. They feel uncomfortable and they feel nervous. And when they open a big wine list, then, you know, then it's over.

Mark 7:26

It can be very, listen, we, we have a pretty big wine list in, in our restaurants and it's intimidating for people. It's intimidating though. You, you, you need to do something to allay their fears.

Aldo 7:35

But nothing is more fun, you know, to make these people feel comfortable right from the first second when you go there and tell them, look, uh, it's not a problem at all. I'll find the right wine for you in even a comfortable price range, whatever it is.

Francis 7:49

You know what's funny? I sort of have a standard joke and when you're a respiratory, you can, you can run with the same joke for like a couple of weeks because. Then you start to get people who come back a second time and you can't tell that joke again, but you've got a couple of weeks, you got a whole bunch of new people to say, my, my recently, I've been going into people and, and I'll say as they open the wine list, I'll say, um, hi, how are you? I, I just like to introduce myself. I'm the, I'm the resident alcoholic. I've tasted every bottle on that list, but I have a great memory. I. And I'm highly functional so I can, you know, help you select a bottle of wine. And it's, I'm sort of making light of why, why I am there. But it's, it's a very different perception of the, than the sommelier of, say, 25 years ago, who was this sort of imposing figure who took an imposing wine list and made it more imposing.

Aldo 8:27

Well, you know, when you work in a, in a four star restaurant, you know, you still, especially here at Laborda, a little bit more conservative focused. So in order to make that that joke, you know, it's kind of, for me, very, very tough to do that.

Francis 8:41

Oh, I wasn't recommending it for you at all. And in fact, and in fact if I'd heard you'd stolen it, I'd have written you an nasty email. Thanks my joke. But the point, but my point is that, you know, we've, mark and I have dined at La Bernadette for lunch a couple of times, and, and your staff is so gracious. but the contemporary sommelier, although it's a, it's a mouthful of a word for a lot of Americans to say that the role is to be sort of, the wine sommelier is the wine waiter, right? But it's to be the guy who comes over and, and removes any sense of intimidation and adds a sense of fun and adventure and, removes the fear

Mark 9:15

from one, i I think for a lot of. Customers who come into restaurants. I think that the wine list is the most intimidating part of the meal when you go to, to, to a really upscale restaurant. I think a lot of people, that's the part, you know, a lot of people will see foods they recognize, and you can always skip over if there's one food you don't recognize or another. But that wine list can be daunting. And, and I think that the, the role of the sommelier is even a greater one than it, than it was 25 years ago.

Aldo 9:43

Yeah. Absolutely. And, but people, you will be surprised. People know very well about wines and they have special interests. You know.

Francis 9:52

Do, do you, do you find that you occasionally get, uh, you know, a very knowledgeable guest who his goal is just to sort of trip you up or quiz you on your knowledge

Mark 10:01

to stump,

Francis 10:02

to

Mark 10:02

stump

Francis 10:02

the chance, the sommelier. Do you find that happens at all?

Aldo 10:05

Well, it happens, but you know. You have to be cool about that. You know, if someone wants to know about something, uh, I feel more than comfortable to answer that. If someone doesn't, you know, I have no problem to keep that for myself. Yeah. I don't have to show off, you know.

Francis 10:20

But I wanna talk with you Aldo, about Austrian wine. One of the first guests we had on our show and our show's about three years old now, so about 475 shows ago. Um. Uh, our friend Peter Schlemer, was, was one of the first guests on the show. Yeah. Do you know Schlemer? Yeah. He's, he, the, the laughter is that we all know Schlemer crazy man, friend of ours, uh, advocate of Austrian wines, and, and one of our first shows was about Austrian wine. And at that time, you know, the, the Austrian wine, in America was sort of a nascent movement, but among sort of wine geeks, wine cognoscenti, you know, that's really a hot. Category right now. Are you surprised by that? Will you talk to us a little bit about Austrian wine in the United States?

Aldo 11:02

Well, telling you the truth, when I came over in oh four, uh, to the us, uh, I was quite surprised how Velina was known here. Mm-hmm. And I had no idea. And I was really surprised about that. And after my first summer, I had the answer, uh, the summers are here, really muggy and really hot. Yep. And neat refreshment. So it was crystal clear. Then, uh, wine. New Yorkers love at Stella of Wine. Because it's completely dry based, really crisp, very fresh, and extremely clean in the fruit.

Francis 11:29

Now, GVI Leer is a grape that's found almost exclusively in the country of Austria. And the two major grapes are not, the only grapes for white wine from Austria are Grt, Leer and Riesling. And Riesling. Yeah. And I would say that, uh, since, uh, before 1996, you, I mean, I. You'd never see a gr li in the United States, and you'd rarely see an Austrian Riesling. But from about 96 to oh two is when it really started. Like the cool, the cool places had a smattering of Austrian wines. And, uh, and then it's just, really exploded.

Mark 11:58

And now if you, if you want to have a great wine list, you have to carry Austrian wines. it's just a category that, that you need to have

Aldo 12:04

kind of the fancy part right now. Yes.

Francis 12:07

one of the things that's interesting about carrying wines like Austrian wines is there's still a large segment of the population that's never had an Austrian wine, has maybe seen them on the list a couple times, but always wondered what they were and never even heard of them. So as a sommelier, as a restaurant professional, that's a blast to be able to take somebody who just does, is unfamiliar with a category and introduce'em to a new category of once, like a new place to explore. Do you find that, would you agree with that?

Aldo 12:29

Oh, absolutely. Now it's very easy. I always go to the table and ask, you know, do you wanna have something traditional, uh, a traditional recommendation, or you wanna have something adventurous and. New York is very adventurous. I can't tell you that.

Mark 12:42

Well, I

Aldo 12:43

always speak that

Mark 12:44

one of the great things I think about Austrian wine, wait, I just need to interrupt for a

Francis 12:47

second. You should. You should preface that by saying, see now I try to get people to go adventurous as well, and I, while I get a lot of takers, I think I'd get more if I said, would you like something traditional or would you like to be adventurous? And by the way, I'm the best sommelier in the world. I never mentioned that. Never. You should have one of your assistants come up and drop it in conversation. Are you aware of the. He's the best sommelier in the world.

Aldo 13:07

I'm very modest When.

Mark 13:11

And as long as we're talking about Austrian wines, I think that one of the things that you need to discuss when you're talking about Austrian wines in particular is how well they marry with certain foods that don't necessarily marry that well with lots of other wines. And I think that Gruder Velt leaner in particular, is one of those wines that all of a sudden you can start matching velina with things you wouldn't traditionally match. Match other foods with.

Aldo 13:35

Well, it's very useful. Let's bring it that way because the range is pretty big. It's from very light to dry, goes up to really powerful and rich once in a while. Even oak fermented. Uh, but it's kind of this clean fruit, which is for me here, extremely important, you know. Uh, to don't kill the flavors.

Francis 13:53

Well, you know, I wanna talk specifically about the food at La Bernadette and being a sommelier at probably the world, the United States Best Fish Restaurant. But I also wanna talk about, uh, that was an interesting question you posed when you said, you know, when you say to the guests, well, would you like a traditional recommendation or would do something like, something less traditional? I think it's not as common or traditional in American restaurants to recommend. In Austrian white wine. Uh, but Austrian wine has a great tradition. I remember the, the second time I visited Austria and I visited our, our mutual friend, uh, Peter Schlemer, and we're both sort of motorcycle enthusiast. So we went motorcycling around the country and we wound up at, uh, in Vienna, at a winery at the, at the close to Norberg.

Speaker 3 14:34

Yeah.

Francis 14:35

And Peter got us a private tasting and I, and we did a little tour and I remember the woman's. Woman said something like, we're looking at a piece of stained glass, and she said, this piece of stained glass is older than your country. And I remember the sense of history, but also they sold me, for Peter and I to taste, they opened up some old vintages. So Austrian is. There are traditional wines in Austria and the Austrian wine tradition goes back, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years.

Mark 15:01

And some of, and, and we look at some of these white wines and their ageability is amazing. I, I think people don't recognize or realize it in the United States how, how well these wines can age.

Aldo 15:12

Oh, it's unbelievable. I had. 30 years old gr and they were really still fresh. Really surprising.

Francis 15:17

You know, it's funny, mark and I were each born in 1965, Our, our, our business partner, Lou, uh, is older than we are, and he was born in 1945. One of the best years for Bordeaux ever. Yeah. We were born in nineteen sixty five, one of the worst years in every wine making region of the world.

Mark 15:33

So there's some okay. Armin y out there from 65. So

Francis 15:37

he started, started. We started this tradition where we would each on our birthdays, buy each other a bottle of wine from our birth year. And for Lou, it's very inexpensive to do that. Now, for us, the 40 fives are getting kind of expensive, but when I was in Austria. Most recently I was in the VAU and it was actually a good year in the vau. I have some 60 fives that I brought back with me. We're talking about white wine from 1965. That's still in very good condition. That's extraordinary. It's actually in

Mark 15:58

better condition than you are Francis. Yeah, that's fact.

Francis 16:00

But that's extraordinary.

Aldo 16:01

Well, telling you the truth, uh, we spend. Very often too much focus, uh, to a vintage chart.

Speaker 3 16:07

Mm-hmm. And

Aldo 16:07

those charts, they can be not as precise because look, when you review an area like California, you can say just, you know, uh, 2001 is fabulous and is not as good. Because the country is too big. Yeah. Micro.

Mark 16:20

I'll tell you what though, Aldo, if you find me some good wines from 1965 that, that aren't from the vow, you let me know. All right.

Francis 16:26

Well, you know, the, the other thing is, uh, what belies the vintage chart and why the sommelier comes in handy. And I'm curious as to what you think about this, because, you know, in 1998 was a very difficult year, for example, in Northern California, but there were a few producers, uh, and the problem was some, some rain that people didn't late in the season that, that people didn't get their grapes in and a lot of their grapes got rained down. But there were a few producers. Who happened to get their grapes in before the rain who made some extraordinary wines. Staglin is an example of a, of a phenomenal wine in 98. Kathy

Mark 16:54

Corson made some great wines in 98,

Francis 16:56

but very, but it's hard to get people to buy'em'cause they see 98 and their vintage chart says That's a bad vintage. And they say, oh, it's 98. It can't be great.

Aldo 17:02

Well, I run constantly in that issue, uh, especially here at Burgundy.

Speaker 3 17:06

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 17:07

Uh, you know, oh four was kind of that vintage too. Uh, that people said, no, I don't like O four, but O four, uh, in white, burgundy. It's fantastic to drink. Well, and by far now it's as expensive as oh five and O four drinks better. Well,

Mark 17:22

right. That's, and that's the other thing too. That's the whole point, you know? Yeah. That's, and that's the job. And what you're saying there is exactly the job of. Of a great sommelier. It's, it's your job. I think I, I consider it my job and, and you tell me if you feel the same way. That that part of the job of the sommelier is to navigate that for you and to have tasted these things. So, so that maybe I can find you a value in Burgundy, whether it's inexpensive or expensive, but is a value in Burgundy because I found you a great oh four that might be a little less expensive than that oh five and might actually be drinking better.

Aldo 17:56

Yeah, that's correct. But look, when the, with the job som started, it was in the middle age. There was no wine spectator nor Rover Parkers out there.

Speaker 3 18:04

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aldo 18:05

So there was no point. If you wanna get a high rated wine, you know, from either one of those, critics, you know, you don't have to have a sommelier. You can do that on your own. It's very easy. you know, if you wanna get something new, possibly less expensive and really something interesting. You need a person like that. Do you know

Francis 18:23

what I think? And I'm curious if you play the same game, but one of my greatest triumphs, uh, and Mark and I both work as and sommelier in our restaurants occasionally and sometimes in other people's restaurant. One of the great tribes for me is a wine bar, and I also buy retail for people. I relish when I find a wine that was rated poorly by one of those large publications. Mm-hmm. And I think they got it wrong. And I relish finding a great 98 Northern California wine one where the vintage charts say, oh, this isn't gonna be great. And I say it is. That's one of my, that's why you want a sommelier, I think.

Aldo 18:57

Exactly. I mean, that's, I mean, I'm not gonna work against, uh, those big publications Right. Working against those because look, somehow, you know, they meet their reputation. I mean, uh, they did a hard job on that and they're quite successful on that.

Mark 19:11

And you know what? If you're in a place, if you're in a place where, where nobody really knows that much about wine, it's

Francis 19:16

useful. It's extremely useful. Yes. But when you are, you know what's here? And this brings me to another point now. I want, I want to see where you stand on this. Um, I've been, we have a lot of friends in the business. You know, we all do. But, but it's my experience that when I go out with my wine, knowledgeable friends, whether they're wine and importers or sommelier or, or wine makers, when we go to a restaurant very often, if there, if there's a, if the place where it seems like there's a knowledgeable waiter or a knowledgeable bartender or a sommelier on staff. We'll, we'll ask for that person's recommendation at least partly because, you know how I explain it to my staff are when we consult for a client and I say, listen, your key person on staff may not be the best sommelier in the world.

Mark 19:56

Well, on your staff it would be, but, but, but

Francis 19:59

most people don't have you on their staff. Um, so. What we say is, listen, the sommelier's job is not, or, or the sommelier or even the, you know, the captain in a restaurant, if, if wine is part of their purview, their job is not to know the most about wine and more about wine than even all of their customers come in. But They should know as much as anyone can about the wines that they sell, about the wines in their cellar, which is why I find that even people who know a tremendous amount about wine when they go to a restaurant, if it's got a serious wine program, they ask the sommelier that's there. Do you do that when you go out?

Aldo 20:31

I always do that because look, again, it's kind of similar to chomp. Quickly back to the previous question, with the big publication and the big one, critics. If you stay on that path, you never dis discover something new.

Speaker 3 20:44

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 20:45

So if you go to, why not to go to someone and have another nice conversation that's, that's great. And he shows, look, I have something new. That's really interesting. So you expand your horizon, you know?

Mark 20:55

Yeah. I, I mean, I'm just giving you an example, listeners. An example last night in my restaurant, and this happens. Uh, I don't wanna say every night, but very, very frequently. Last night I had somebody in the restaurant come in and say, you know, I looked at your wine list and, you know, I usually drink cake bread. How come you don't have cake, bread on the, on the wine list? Yes. I, I mean, I'm sure you hear that exact question. Very, I hear

Aldo 21:18

that very often. And you bring it right now, especially to the point, um, I have a shortage and I commit to that, uh, on California Carnet and big Tita. Why? Because if I go there with the, with the fishes, with chef cooks, you know?

Speaker 3 21:33

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 21:33

Uh, I mean, I just picked the most famous one right now, screaming Eagle. I do have them, yes. But do I wanna serve them? No, because it's like, you know. Throwing a bumble with a fish because there's only the ink, there's no more fish.

Francis 21:47

Well, yeah. If, here's, here's my view on, on a big wine like that, first of all, uh, we have a lot of big steak on the menu as well. Mm-hmm. So that's probably a better choice. And secondly, if you wanna give me a couple thousand dollars for a bottle of wine, I'll take it. But,

Aldo 21:59

but the thi No, no. But still, you know, even for a steak, this wine is way too much. Right. I know, I know. Absolutely. Uh, to go with a steak, you need a. Really crazy rich sauce, but

Francis 22:08

you get to tell your friends tomorrow that you had Screaming Eagle last night. Well, but that's a whole different story. Hey, listen, we gotta take a quick break, but when we come back, although I want to talk about exactly what you do, and I think there, there's a, there's a, you know, they say that uh, there are chefs and there are fish chefs, you know, because cooking fish is a very different thing. I think there should be a similar saying for sommeliers. There are so ERs and there are. Fish sommelier because it's, it's a whole different and more delicate and refined sort of art form. Would you agree with that? Oh, absolutely. Well, let's expand on that after the break. We'll be back in just a moment. You're listening to the restaurant guys, mark and Francis. We're talking with Aldo, so the best sommelier in the world. Sommelier La Bernadin restaurant. We'll be back in just a moment. we wanted to talk with you, Aldo, about, uh, pairing wine with fish because the old white wine with fish, red wine with meat or white wine with white meat and red wine, uh, with red meat or dark meats, has some utility, but it's really constraining. There are a whole lot of matches you can make outside of that, but on the same token. Matching the wrong wine with fish can be a pretty deleterious well, to the fish. We wanna

Mark 23:15

take it out of the maximum and put it into the suggestion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you help us do that?

Aldo 23:20

Well, you know, it's, we learned it in school. Yes. White wine goes with fish and white wine goes with white meat, uh, and dark meat goes with red wine. Uh, if you go to Italy, you'll see you get a grilled chicken breast with perhaps a little bit rosemary and a tomato, uh, sauce and serve your red wine there. So they break already the rule. So do I.

Speaker 3 23:39

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 23:40

Uh, I grew up, you know, in my child even, I loved breaking rules, but make that smart. Mm-hmm. And of course you can do that, but, you know, we focus here extremely strong towards pinot noir, meaning also burgundies.

Speaker 3 23:54

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 23:54

And, uh, the chef made also certain design, kind of the, the sauces which are accessible for me to go with red wine. And for instance, I have a Es color here with a red wine Bernese. Which is a pinot from Burgundy. Just beautiful.

Francis 24:08

Mm-hmm. Well, and I mean, let's talk about that because what we're talking about here with Aldo to, to sort of break it down out there is, you know, red wines tend to be heavier because red wines, um, come from red grapes and spend some time with the skins. And the skins have a compound, called tannin. Now all wines have some tannin, but red wines have more tannin, and that's. The thing that adds what we, we, in the business call structure to a wine, you can call it bitterness. And bitterness, not necessarily being a bad thing.'cause we need a certain amount of bitterness to make, you know, to have a balance. A balance. Um, but too much bitterness, too much weight and too much alcohol on a light dish like fish, can overpower the fish. But there are lots of red wines that don't have that. So pinot noir, you're saying is, is one grape that we really should look to for fish,

Aldo 24:50

it'll be too easy to wine.

Francis 24:54

Okay. Uh,

Aldo 24:55

in which condition they are, you know, and wine is always changing, so you have always, you have always to double check, you know, over a certain amount of time that the wine didn't change or close up.

Speaker 3 25:04

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 25:05

Especially pinot Noir. You know, I'm always surprised how everyone loves suddenly pinot noir since the movie Sideways.

Speaker 3 25:11

And everyone

Aldo 25:12

hates Perlo. But, um, Pinot is very, very delicate in the vineyard, very delicate, uh, and tricky. The cell and also the in the glass and pin, not self explain. It wants to be understood. Mm-hmm. That's on the bottom line. The is easy to understand.

Francis 25:28

Well, also, I think Pinot Noir has a greater range, especially when you talk about New World Pinot Noirs. I mean, you can, you can have, uh, some pinot noirs from the Santa Lucia Highlands that are, you know, you look at them and they're black and dark and juicy, and you can have some pinot noirs from Washington state or Washington state or, or some. Parts of the Russian River Valley or in high altitude places that you can see through them. They're not pretty translucent. Yeah. Very dark. Yeah. And, and you have a similar difference in flavor. Some are lighter and would go well with certain fishes and some are almost as overpowering as Chardonnays.

Aldo 25:57

Yeah. But don't focus on the color there. Yeah, true. Uh, because most of the people look as soon as the wine translucent or it's light. Mm.

Speaker 3 26:03

Not necessarily

Aldo 26:04

because if you look, go to certain barolos, uh, just to pull out of, of Pinot noir. Uh, you know, they're also lighter in color, but they're pretty heavy.

Francis 26:12

Yeah. Yeah.

Aldo 26:13

So that's not the rule here, or not the key.

Francis 26:15

Well, it's funny, but I, what I think with, with fish, especially when you wanna pair red wines with fish, I think this is when you really need a sommelier. Um. Because, you know, with Phish you really have to be more delicate and I think it's easy to go the, the, the road of, of a lighter, crisper white wine with Phish. Yeah. And I think that the, the role of a sommelier,'cause we have a lot of folks in the industry who listen to this, uh, uh, podcast and, and, and broadcast. the most important thing is that your sommelier get to know, um, the, the wine in the cellar. Also the food on the menu, because you talked a lot about knowing the sauces that chef repair pairs things with, and you know, not just from an intellectual perspective, but the wines you've tasted, I assume, in your cellar.

Aldo 26:59

Yeah, a lot. I mean, again, you have to check always how the fish is prepared.

Speaker 3 27:04

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 27:05

Is it poached? Is it sead? Is it grilled? How is it prepared? Then you have to check the sauce.

Speaker 3 27:10

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 27:10

Which are the spices? What are the sides

Speaker 3 27:13

and

Aldo 27:13

all those components, you know? Just a little bit, you know, to work with chef repair. He, he loves certain special ingredients and that changes the whole direction of the dish, kind of to catch those flavors and bring them together with a wine. That's the tricky part there.

Mark 27:31

You know, the, the thing that I think that a lot of sommelier miss and, and a lot of chefs miss, is they'll find some, some cool new ingredient to finish a dish with, or to garnish a dish with just the tiniest little ingredient that may not have a ton of effect on. The dish itself, no, but on the wine, but may have a huge effect on the wine that you may with. I mean

Francis 27:52

something like if, if a dish, if a chef. I remember we were doing a wine dinner once, and a chef at the last moment, this is several years ago, decided to, he didn't, wasn't so happy with the sauces. We had tried it with the wine dinner and, and he threw in some green onions at the last moment. Tribe blossoms, chive blossoms, chive blossoms. Just little bit of them. And it turned this chardonnay. We had the chardonnay producer there, turned the Chardonnay. It was a train wreck. We stopped it before it went out because we taste everything the day of the dinner. But we're like, what happened? You know, it ruined the wine and it was, it was almost imperceptible in the dish, but it turned the wine into a train wreck.

Aldo 28:21

That's, that's, I mean, that's a very, very delicate issue here. Most people think, oh, sommelier goes to the, uh, looks at the dishes and says, okay, that wine goes with, isn't that chardonnay? Uh, it's not, you know, you have to taste

Francis 28:33

well. Now let's talk about tasting wine because we, uh, about 10 years ago switched to formal service, which was at that time uncommon in the United States, and I think you see it more and more. And we did it, uh, primarily in response to the increase in the number of corked bottles. So what I mean by formal service for those in our listening, uh, area is our waitstaff will present the wine to you when you order wine. We'll then go over to the gar, the garon open or the table. Then open the wine, uh, and then the captain or the sommelier will pour him or herself a small taste of the wine. Usually about a half an ounce. the primary reason is to make sure that the wine is not corked and we'll, we'll never pour the wine for you to taste. If the wine is corked, we'll go back and get something else. Or if it's the last bottle, we'll apologize and bring you something else. But, and that was primarily in response to. Some people didn't know and would accept a corked bottle of wine and drink half of it and just think the wine was awful. And when it was a wine they could send back, some people would send back wine. That was perfectly good because they were insecure. So we found to solve a lot of those problems. But the happy byproduct of that is, look, I have a lot of waiters in their twenties who are very broadly tasted in some very great wines. And the way that they're tasted is they taste wines every night as a part of their job. Um, is that the style of service you do at at Larna? Um,

Aldo 29:47

yeah. We taste all our wines for. Exactly those reasons. So you don't, you don't wanna come in a situation where. You serve a corked wine. Mm-hmm. The host can taste it. And all the clients, they recognize that. So what they're gonna do, it's a very embarrassing situation.

Francis 30:02

You know, it's funny, we don't wanna go

Aldo 30:03

into that.

Mark 30:04

Well, it takes all the pressure off of the client. That's one of the things we were talking about, the role of the sommelier was the role of the sommelier is to take the pressure. Out of, what can be a daunting task to be the wine host for, for a business meeting or for a party or whatever the case may be. It can be a daunting task. It's our jobs. to take that away.

Francis 30:23

But I think that what's interesting is when we first did this, we frankly got very little pushback. I was a little concerned that people in America, because it was an unfamiliar though, it's of course that it's been, it's former wine service in Europe forever. But we do occasionally get an outraged letter. I would say two or three times a year. Someone says, you know, the waiter stole some of my wine. How dare you?

Aldo 30:45

Uh, no. We have to test events. So it's a little bit more moderate. You know, it, you have to see it from different perspectives. You know, certain I'm critical right now.

Speaker 3 30:54

Certain

Aldo 30:55

service, they take advantage of it and they put them at decent glass. Oh

Francis 30:58

yeah. You can't do

Aldo 30:58

that. Of course. Yeah. Especially when it's a really expensive wine.

Francis 31:01

Mm-hmm. Yeah. We have the, we have the tiny little IN AO tasting glasses rather than the taste event. Yes.

Aldo 31:05

So you gotta be careful how you do that. Mm-hmm. But look, you can even explain customers, you know, I said, look, uh. We just wanna make sure that everything is perfect and we don't even bother you with a correct one. there's no reason to do that.

Francis 31:16

And you know what I mean? Let's be honest about it because obviously I wanna, I wanna stress that the, the main, the reason that we decided to do this was to prevent flawed or off bottles from getting to the table. But the other reason is there is no way that we could have, a staff that knew anything about wine, about pairing wine with food, about what the wines and the cellar were like. Unless they were tasting the wines as they serve them. And then, and there's no way a 23-year-old or 25-year-old or 27-year-old waiter can afford to drink enough red burgundy of Great Red burgundy to know the differences among the great

Mark 31:46

red burgundy. And even though we're tasting them on them all the time, tasting that same bottle 25 times or 50 times, if one's a little off, you know it. If one's a little off, you know it immediately.

Aldo 31:56

Yes. That's the beautiful part on it. I mean, look, uh, if you let people taste, that's very, very important because why, uh, they increases the eagerness of those persons, they are willing to learn more.

Speaker 3 32:07

Mm-hmm. I

Aldo 32:08

know for us Europeans, it's always interesting to see the restaurant, see how it works here. And that I was surprised about myself too when I came because, uh, I saw the servers were most likely here, uh, actors. Writers.

Speaker 3 32:18

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 32:19

Uh, singers. But none, no one has, uh, a restaurant education. Which is fast, very normal in Europe, you know, it's

Francis 32:26

an

Aldo 32:26

indication, it's, it's a career.

Francis 32:28

one of the things that we found that is most fulfilling to us is we've been in business for 16 years now, uh, and we, our first restaurant opened 16 years ago. We now have two. We do consulting for other folks, but we've had a number of people come through our restaurant who are still in the restaurant business, who've gone on to open their own restaurants. Who, who, a couple of people who are pursuing their master sommelier degrees, and there are a number of people who work. For us and with us who maybe didn't start thinking they were going to be in the restaurant profession, but have decided that it is a profession worthy of their, their, their heart and their mind. And that's, that's wonderful.'cause it is beautiful. It's a beautiful job. It is a great job, isn't it? Why, why do you think it's a great job in the restaurant business?

Aldo 33:07

Why? Yeah. Well, look, we just spoke about it. First of all, I love to deal with people. Mm-hmm. And it's very, very different than you are if you're a salesperson, you. Have to go to someone and they have to make him interested in your product versus in, in my perspective, people come and they want something from us.

Speaker 3 33:23

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 33:23

It's very, it's a easier approach on top too, but you can make them happy. You know? What is more beautiful than eating and drinking?

Francis 33:30

Well, and you know, we did, mark and I had a re a shop for a while and we still, we have a license in New Jersey that allows us to sell packaged wine and. I found the retail experience while it was fulfilling while we had our little shop, um, and our shop was next to the restaurant. Unfortunately, the restaurant grew in demand, so we made the shop into a, into a beautiful dining room. but I found that I don't care for. Myself, and I'm not showing any disrespect to people who love it. And thank God for all, all you great retailers out there, but I really enjoy the restaurant business much more, especially when selling those adventurous wines because I would sell in the, in the retail store some wines like, uh, I'm a big fan of, and Mark and I are both big, we're big fans of, so air. Mildly oxidized wine from the Lair Valley made of she blanc taste. Right. Well, it's, and it's, you know, it's, it's slightly oxidized in style, which in any other wine might be a sign of a flaw, but in this wine you sort of see through it, and that's part of what it's supposed to be. Well. We would sell a bunch of this and Mark and I traveled to so air and brought in some sovereign airs that, that heretofore weren't available in, in the States. And we got old vintages of so air, and we would sell them in the restaurant. And it was wonderful because we would explain it to people and then we would taste it before they did. So they would have the reassurance that it was how it was supposed to be. And then they would look for it and they would see the beautiful, you know, mushrooms and heather and woodsy notes to it. But I would sell a case package to a trusted customer who would then bring it back mm-hmm. And say, oh, you know, I opened this. And it's, it's, uh, it's oxidized. And I'd say, well, it's supposed to be oxidized, but what can you say? You have to take it. I, I love, I guess the point is, what I love about the restaurant business is you are there. I pour it for you. I watch you drink it. I look at you, smile. You know, that's something very heartwarming about that. And if

Aldo 35:11

you don't smile, you can react right away.

Francis 35:12

Mm-hmm. It's

Mark 35:13

true.

Speaker 3 35:13

That's

Francis 35:13

it.

Aldo 35:14

Look, I tell people all the time if, if they pick adventurous and they feel uncomfortable because they're not certain, if is the product really good, look what happens. Worst case scenario. You tell me I need the wine anyway for my dinner, and I would love to have this wine. That's

Mark 35:26

it. I had, I had some exact scenario last night. I got to be sommelier last night, which I don't always get to do. So, so I had a lot of fun last night.

Aldo 35:34

So there's no look. People feel right away, comfortable. They laugh because no one tell, not many people tell them that.

Mark 35:40

Mm.

Aldo 35:40

So we know what's the point. It's, it's a bottle of wine. So.

Mark 35:43

and when I say it, by the way, Alda, I mean it. Yeah. Mark and I, I'm really gonna drink that later. If you don't, I picked you something I really like. Uh,

Aldo 35:50

but if not, you know, I give it to take this bottle to my som and we taste them again. Mm-hmm. Or do the stuff, you know, what's, we spent a little bit of money, but that money is very well invested.

Francis 36:00

Well now, uh, how many sommelier, you're the head sommelier? Yep. Uh, at Larna? Yeah. How many sommelier are on staff?

Aldo 36:06

Uh, four more.

Francis 36:07

Wow. That's, that's quite a crew you've got there?

Aldo 36:10

Uh, yes. What we needed, you know, we increased so strong on wine pairings and we explain people also a little bit, you know, about the wine. We tell them a little bit about the background, the grape variety, and we tell them also why we match it up with this dish. So they see the thaw process behind that.

Francis 36:26

And are you on the floor yourself? Very often? Yes.

Aldo 36:28

Um, every day when I'm here, I'm on the floor as well. And during the day I'm in the office unless, uh, there's something special going on, I'm not done for lunch. Also on, and then for dinner.

Mark 36:37

Although let's, I want to talk just for a minute about New York City and, and the world today and how things might, might have changed or be changing. Are, are you seeing in La Bernadin a a change in people's demeanor, a change in, in their habits based on the economy and the things that we're seeing around us?

Aldo 36:55

I mean, let's bring it that way. We, we were cautious beginning from last year.

Mark 37:00

Mm-hmm.

Aldo 37:02

The beginning, sorry, the end of the last year. We were cautious because we thought that something is coming up and we were right on that. So we adjusted on that. We see a little bit of difference that, um, the group of people who order kind of thousands to$3,000 bottles, they reduced. Mm-hmm. Uh, but in the same time we increased, uh, bottles between a couple hundred dollars. Mm-hmm. So those, we kind, we are pretty even on that. But you know, we don't know what's gonna happen.

Francis 37:33

I guess, you know, we don't know what's gonna happen, but in good times and in bad there's wine. Yeah. Well have to

Aldo 37:38

admit I work 20% harder right now just to keep as much as possible up to mm-hmm. The situation.

Francis 37:44

Yeah. It's, well, you know, it's, it's an interesting economy, but I'll tell you, I do find that, that, you know, some people are fine. Yeah. I think many people are really find themselves just worried when they read the newspaper every day. But I also feel, you know what's funny? I read the

Aldo 37:56

ad.

Francis 37:57

Yeah, well you know what? But you know what's funny, Aldo is Mark and I worked in another restaurant in 1987 when the last big crash happened. And you know, in the 1950s and sixties and through the early seventies and seventies and the early eighties, we really didn't start to develop a restaurant culture until maybe 82, 83 through 87 or so. And so when the crash came. Restaurants and dining out and good wine hadn't really been a part of people's lives. They had been a hobby for three or four years for people, but they weren't part of people's lives.

Aldo 38:31

Well, look, I see that way. You know, New York is a very quickly changing place. Uh, to change something is another, a problem for a person here. But, um, I figured one thing in my experience, uh, people still spend money. That's not a problem, but they want to see something, you know, they want to get something for their money. Well, you know, but then they have no problem to, you know,

Francis 38:52

to throw it out. You know, the other thing that I, but I see the difference between now and 1987 is, you know, 1987, uh, was, 21 years ago. I can't head, it's going by quickly. That's actually traction. So that's a generation that might be, but, but in this generation, dining has become. A more important part of American's lives and you know, now that you've, there are people who are 30 years old who've been eating good food since they were 10, and, and they're, and we've all been, you know, taking this as good wine and good food as a part of our culture. And so I don't, you know, people aren't stopping and people are actually, I'm seeing a lot of people come to both restaurants. Because they just need to turn it all off mm-hmm. And go out with their family or friends and have a few drinks and have some good food. And I, I think that's speaks of a real change to the position of dining in our culture here.

Aldo 39:37

Well, it's, it's a lifestyle, you know, it became to a lifestyle. Mm-hmm. You know, you want to, you want to eat good and you want to have even a nice vacation. But during the, during the year, you work hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, that's what it came down, you know?

Mark 39:49

And a special occasion doesn't become less special just because the economy's not as good.

Aldo 39:53

No. Why? I mean, we have to think positive. Right?

Francis 39:57

Ome, uh, it was lovely talking with you and we will continue to think positive and the next time we come into Larna Dam, we will ask for you and we hope our, our listeners do the same.

Aldo 40:05

Oh, definitely. Lemme know when you come.

Francis 40:07

Uh, Alder. So of the best sommelier in the world. 2008. Uh, we'll be back in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant Guys.

Mark 40:29

Hey, we were talking to Aldo, so, and we were talking about being a sommelier and some of the, some of the great opportunities you get when, when you're a to interact with people. And, we were talking about a story last night. Uh, this true story last night. I had a woman come in and she was clearly intimidated by why. She said, I really don't like anything that's too dry. And that was, that was kind of all she had to say, to say, didn't have the vocabulary'cause she didn't have the vocabulary and that was okay. And we, and we talked about that for a little while. And, you know, her guest was kind of, I don't wanna say embarrassed, but clearly was like, you know, she doesn't really know what she likes and, you know, she tries and she tries to explain, but it's, it's sometimes hard for her to communicate. So I did exactly what Aldo was talking about. I did exactly that. I, I, I was able to say, first of all, I picked a bottle of wine that I really enjoy. and I was totally truthful. I said, I, you know, I really enjoy this wine. So if for any reason you don't want this wine, we'll taste it. Hopefully it'll hit the, the what you're looking for. And if for any reason you don't like it, I'll take it back. We'll drink it later on tonight. Don't worry about it, and we'll pick something else for you. And. She was totally put at ease by that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. that's what we were talking about earlier in the show. It is the job of the sommelier and the maitre d and the waiter and all the people in the restaurant to put you at ease when you're at a restaurant. If you go to a restaurant and people aren't putting you at ease. They're not doing their job.

Francis 41:56

Oh, you know, I, I think I know the table you were talking about.'cause I spent a little time on the floor last night in both restaurants and I'm sure that it was table 52. It was 52. Yeah, sure. 52. I know that couple, I don't know if you know this, but I saw that you had recommended a wine to them. I saw you table side opening there and I just went over to say hello to everybody. You know, mark did the real work last night. I just, you know. Came, walked

Speaker 3 42:14

around

Francis 42:14

and said hello. I was gonna say,

Mark 42:15

what else is new?

Francis 42:16

And took credit for things. Um, but I was working in the office very hard on other stuff. Uh, but I came up to say hello to everybody in both restaurants and I happened to pass through that table and then I came by again an hour later to just check on things. And, um, you were doing a great job, by the way, you, thanks so much.

Mark 42:29

Appreciate you looking out for me there.

Francis 42:31

But I spoke to the woman and she said. I think'cause she thought I was your boss. She said, she said, you're not. I know. She said, um, you know, the, the young man who recommended the wine did a very good job. You know why she said that Wine? Because you look older than me. Oh. But we're both looking hard. You don't look like the young man. Uh, and uh, I said, yeah. So anyway, I said, oh, that's, uh, what's his name again? I said, that's Mark. Uh, I almost said he's a good boy. He's been with us for a long time, but I didn't. Um, but she said, you know, he did a great job and when he first poured it, my husband, uh, liked it a lot, but I thought it might've been a little bitter. But I sort of, you know, my husband really liked it and it was okay, but now that I've had it through dinner, I really like it now. And that's another interesting thing about wine. Take a moment. If initially you're a little put off by something. Drink a half a glass of it over the course of 10 or 15 minutes and see how you feel about it. Because two things happen. One is sometimes wine changes, and this is something people don't realize. Sometimes you change. Mm-hmm. Sometimes you get used to something, sometimes. Um, remember your first people who like coffee, remember your first sip of coffee. Why would adults drink that? It's bitter. Then you sort of get past it and you see a really good cup of coffee, you see through the bitterness. And that's how we sort of grow and expand. And this can happen with wine as well. So what I'm saying is just, you know, be open-minded. There's a lot of great stuff out there. And

Mark 44:01

the other thing is, and this is a lot of professional people, when you're tasting, you know this, you just, when you're tasting something. You always want to give that a second try because that first taste is affected by anything else that you might have done before that. Right? Brush your teeth head Tang, fit Newton, you know, whatever. You know, you use the, use the orange juice in the morning right after you brush your teeth analogy, right? It's. It's very similar to that. But if

Francis 44:25

you judged all orange juice on that, you'd never have orange juice again. It would never happen again. Wouldn't that be sad? So

Mark 44:29

it's, it's always good to taste the wine at least twice. And like Francis said, if you have, if you can, to taste it over a 10 or 15 minute period. But I'll be, but honestly, if that woman had said, you know what, I really don't. Care for this. I would've been perfectly happy to take it and, and drink it with me in the office, and I would've told you that story last night. I would've been extra happy actually, I guess then, huh?

Francis 44:48

Well, it looks like the clock on the wall says it's time for last call for the restaurant guys. Really, I'm afraid it does. I'm, I hope that you've all enjoyed the hour with us and Aldo so of La Bernadin. You can email us market