The Restaurant Guys' Regulars

Kate Krader on Food & Wine’s Cocktail Book *V*

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The Restaurant Guys' Regulars

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This is a Vintage selection from 2005

The Banter

The Guys compare dining experiences: Francis decisively won that round. 

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys get to speak with Kate Krader about Food & Wine’s Cocktail Book and the trends that have made Food & Wine declare 2006 “The Year of the Cocktail.” From making grenadine to martini glass size to home cocktail parties, they cover what’s in and what’s out. 

The Inside Track

The Guys and Kate bond over the importance of ice in a drink.

 Francis: You know what? The three of us are a bunch of dorks talking about ice.

Kate:  Oh, and I thought we were really smart.

Francis:  Yeah, believe me, you wanna have one of the three of us putting your cocktail party together. 

Mark: You can’t call us dorks. We're talking about the thermodynamics of ice here. This is important stuff!

Kate Krader on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2005


Bio

Kate Krader is a distinguished food and beverage journalist and editor. With over two decades of experience at Food & Wine magazine—where she led news, restaurant, and chef coverage and helmed its iconic Best New Chefs program—she has been instrumental in spotlighting culinary talent and shaping industry narratives 

Since joining Bloomberg Pursuits as food editor in August 2016, Kate has expanded her scope to include elevated dining, innovative chefs, luxury food travel, and beverage culture across various media. In 2022, she relocated to London to deepen her coverage of the UK food scene while retaining her global focus.

Info

Kate Krader at Bloomburg

https://www.bloomberg.com/authors/AS8jz1KttbA/kate-krader



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Mark:

Hey there, mark. How are you? Hey, you. I'm good, man.

Francis:

I, uh, I had a lovely, we both took nights off last night and I went to the Pegu Club and I had brilliant cocktails and excellent service. Then I went to Hearth Restaurant in Manhattan where Paul Greco, who's gonna come on the show, is the owner. And Hailey Rose is, she's the sommelier I believe there. Um, they were both there and I just, we wandered in, got a table, had a wonderful meal, and then ended up the evening with an old fashioned at a great little bar called. Angels share, which makes classic perfect cocktails. I had great service all night. People were really nice to me. It was just terrific. Sounds

Mark:

awesome. How

Francis:

was your

Mark:

night? I went to a cheesy New Jersey Italian restaurant and hated every minute of it. My wife, I heard that's why that was a setup. Everybody, my wife and I got a sitter and so we needed to stay close to home'cause the baby is still well, a, a baby and, and all. And, uh, so we wanted to be fairly close to home and we succeeded in the close to home part. Yeah, that was really good. Yeah. Uh, you know, something, there's just some things, uh, about certain restaurants, and this isn't, this is, we see this in the entire country. We don't just see this in New Jersey, but just certain things in restaurants that I don't understand why they're acceptable. I don't understand why. We go to restaurants like this and why people accept these things. And I, and I guess, uh, truthfully, it, it's why we get as many compliments as we do in, in our restaurants because a lot of restaurants out there. I I, I'll tell you the, the crux of my feeling and I'll, I'll go over the individual experiences, but the, the, the heart of, of what happened is I felt like no one cared if I had a good time or not. Yeah. In the restaurant,

Francis:

you know, people will forgive a lot if they feel like you're really trying and you're paying attention to them and it, and, and that they matter to you.'cause sometimes we do make mistakes and I think that sometimes. When we make mistakes, and I know as a patron when I'm out, if I feel like there's somebody really trying and they just, something screwed up, you know, you overcooked the steak and you had to cook it again. So I gotta wait longer if I feel like. That's bothers you. Mm-hmm. That you care about me. Uh, I'll cut you some more slack as opposed

Mark:

to you pissing me off or that it's an anomaly uhhuh instead of just what happens every day from day to day out. So, sorry. That's, so tell us what happened. I had a nine o'clock 9:00 PM reservation, which in Jersey is a fairly late reservation. Right. For, for a lot of restaurants, especially Madrid, it's kind of early, but in New Jersey it's exactly, well, they, they put us into the bar and said, oh, your table's not ready yet. That's fine. You know, I own a restaurant. I understand things are busy. It, it was a Friday night. The, the night I went out. I didn't actually go out last night. And so we end up getting sat at 9 55. Well, we've ordered appetizers at the bar. So your reservation's at nine, you show up at 9, 9 55, they seat you. 9 55. I get sat and you know me. I'm, I'm looking at the time, I'm checking things out. You have a baby at home? I want, well, I wanna know what the norms are too. I'm also, I'm also observing the restaurant. Mm-hmm. While I'm there. Nobody says anything except your table's ready. A hostess comes over and says, your table's ready. And I think. 55 minutes. That's a really long time to wait for a table. Generally, just from our point of view, 15 minutes, you know, to turn over a table, that's a normal amount of time. Anything really past 15 minutes that you're waiting for your table. We try to have your table when you get there, but of course, up to 15 minutes I think is, you know, is is reasonable. Okay? If you're 15 minutes late. That's reasonable. If I'm 15 minutes late, that's reasonable. After 15 minutes, there should be somebody saying, oh my God, you know, I'm, I'm sorry, this isn't ready. Which

Francis:

isn't say that that's not gonna happen in any restaurant. It's gonna happen a couple of times a year that you're gonna just

Mark:

mess up. And, and again, I'm gonna, everything that I'm talking about as far as the things that happen with this restaurant, all would've been solved by a, you know, I'm sorry that happened. All would've been solved by somebody just. Giving a crap a crap. So,

Francis:

so what happens after you sit?

Mark:

So, you know, the feel is that there's, there's just nobody. Really in charge of this place. And that was obviously another, another problem. But I, you know, I got sat in an aisle seat. I'm a fairly big guy, as you obviously know. I, I noticed, but I, I get sat in the aisle and I'm kind of in the way. Mm-hmm. Okay. But there's not, but they sat you there, but there's not a lot I can do about that. Right. Okay. And, and I'm gonna tell you, and this is, this is an actual truth. I didn't get kicked less than 30 or 40 times by the waiters as they walked past me. Okay. And again, did you kick back? No. No apology. Mm-hmm. No, I'm sorry. No, excuse me. Nothing. They just kicked my chair and went on their way. Mm-hmm. And I thought. You know what you, if you kicked it once and you didn't notice that you were kicking my chair,'cause you were in a hurry, I'd say, okay, but, but you just kicked my chair 20, 30, maybe 40 times. You kicked my chair during, during a meal where I'm got a fork heading for my mouth and all of a sudden I'm, I'm jarred, I'm shaking. And, and again, I thought, okay, it's, you can't really fit through the space because of, because of how big I am and where you've put me. But you didn't design the space. But I didn't design the space. And I'm the customer, you've kicked me. Right? Right. You need to say, I'm sorry. Even if you don't mean it, you gotta

Francis:

say it. See, now when I kick you, I'm intending intentionally doing it. So I don't think that I'm obligated to apologize. I'm, it's like a,'cause I wind up, you know? And I go for the kick. So what else happened?

Mark:

Well, it just, a lot of the the, and now I'm gonna talk about some things that are more typical of the. The Jersey Italian style restaurant. Mm-hmm. You know, they, they give a litany of, of specials that are not written down anywhere, so you gotta memorize what they, they have what the bill again. Exactly. What was the third special again? And, and again, no prices. And you just know that those specials are$10 more than anything else on the menu. Yeah, I'm, I'm not into that that much. Alright. And, and I'm gonna tell you that this, that this restaurant, the food was pretty good. Yeah. You're not going back, are you okay? I'll never go back. there were so many different little things like that, you know, and, and, okay. So I got something that was supposed to have, uh, truffles in it, and it had that fake truffle oil in it. Mm-hmm. You know, but it was inexpensive, so I knew that I was gonna get that. Right. Right. You know, you offer me a$16, uh, gnocchi with that says truffles. I, I know, because I know I'm not getting truffles. That's a, a nanogram. I know. Tr and I, I also noticed that, that the oil was kind of, that, that fake oil. The, not the real truffle oil.'cause you can taste it if you mm-hmm. Especially if you taste a lot of truffle oil. Hey man, 14 bucks. You ain't getting truffles. 14 bucks. You're never getting truffles.

Francis:

you raised a great point. And whether it's, and, and we've consulted for a number of different places and we looked at buying a couple of different places over the years and what, what, what is a common denominator, whether it's the sports bar, the high-end cocktail bar, the dive dump on the corner. Look, there was a guy named Bob was, and I'll say, I'll say his last name.'cause he was a, he was a almost a celebrity in New Brunswick for a long time. Bob McGee was the bartender mm-hmm. At the A in witch pub for many, many years. I, I went into that bar. For, you know, it's kind of a dive bar and that's, and that's no shot on them to throw some darts and have a Guinness. Mm-hmm. But I went there because Bob always, I felt that Bob, it was really important to Bob. And Bob was happy

Mark:

to see you. Happy to see me. And there you go. You've touched on it. Yeah. Nobody at this restaurant that I went to was happy to see me. I felt like they would've been happier if I had never come.

Francis:

Well, and look, they're gonna get their wish here. See, maybe that,

Mark:

maybe that was what they wanted all along. You know, I left that one more tiny little thing. Uh, go ahead, keep fetching. Okay. It's good, it's fun. I'm sorry, I, the, and I'm not giving the name of the restaurant because, because I, I don't want to unless you email him. If you ask me personally, I'll let it all out. Go ahead. But, but it rhymes with, but. I, I paid for a bottle of wine and my appetizers are at the bar. Mm-hmm. Okay. Whatever it was. 80 bucks, 90 bucks, a hundred bucks, whatever I spent on, on, mm-hmm. Two little appetizers and, and my bottle of wine. When my, my check came, everything was on the check, including the bottle of wine on the app. That you'd already paid for it? That I'd already paid for it. Oh. Again, no apology. No nothing. Come on. They you put, you just spent a hundred bucks on, on my check. Tried to charge me twice. Wow. And you didn't say, I'm sorry. And you didn't say, I'm sorry. And that was the problem. You didn't care.

Francis:

Well, I'm sorry you all had to listen to this Living age out there in restaurant. Listen, we care. We care. We'll be back in just a moment talking about happier things with Kate Crater from Food and Wine Magazine. We'll be talking about cocktails in just a moment. You're listening to the Restaurant guys, central Jersey 1450. Hey everybody. Welcome back here listening to the Restaurant guys, mark and Francis of Stage Left and Capital Lombardi Restaurants in downtown New Brunswick. Our guest today is Kate Crater. Kate's been on before and she returns to talk about cocktails among other things with us. She is a senior. Editor at Food and Wine Magazine overseeing news, trend and restaurant coverage. She's also the editor of the food and Wine cocktail section and has contributed to many of food and wine's. Other books we have, I have in my hand a Food and Wine Cocktails 2006, over 150 of the best drinks and snacks from the hottest bars, plus the Essential American Nightlife Guide. This is one heck of a book here, Kate,

Kate:

isn't it? Excellent.

Francis:

It's awesome. You are responsible for this?

Kate:

Um, I'd like to say I'm completely responsible for it, and I will tell you that I've tasted every single cocktail in this book, but, um, but we have, I have a whole fantastic team that works with me. It's

Francis:

all about the team. Did you taste them all in one afternoon?

Kate:

Can you imagine? Um, no. We spread it out over a little bit, but, um, but there's some days where we tasted like 20 cocktails. Mm-hmm. When it was very hard to go back to your desk and try and edit.

Francis:

You know, it's funny, we do, we do wine tastings, a lot. And we recently put together a cocktail program for the new restaurant that we opened, Uhhuh. And you know, you get it all down, you do the research, you put up the list, and then it come, it's go time, you know? Mm-hmm. And you need to make it. And we spent a few days where we did 20 or 30 cocktails in the afternoon. And you try and sip and spit, but Right. It ain't like wine, man. It's hard. You can, this tincture

Mark:

needs a little more, you know, a little more cinnamon. You know, those kinds of things. You, you have to taste them. You have to taste them. The cocktail. And then you have to sip again. Mm-hmm. And the really good ones you wanna finish.

Francis:

Right? Exactly. Then you get back to your desk and sleep. Now, um, the cocktails 2006, how long has this been guide been coming out?

Kate:

Um, actually last year was our first year. My, um, my boss editor in Chief Data Cow and had a great idea that, um, that we should do cocktails. And so not only, is it a fantastic, um, kind of cookbook of cocktail recipes with all these. Excellent cocktails that you wanna drink all year long, but the back is the kind of guide to the best nightlife. Where we got, where we picked up these cocktail recipes from, because we actually gathered the recipes from great bars, restaurants, and lounges across the country. So not only do you get these great recipes, but you know where to go. Like if you're in Portland, Oregon, or if you're in. Where you wanna go and drink.

Mark:

I, I'll tell you, Kate, I'll be very frank. Mm-hmm. I generally don't like the, when the magazines do these kind of compilation books of, of the end of the year, you know, bring all the chefs together. Uh, I, I generally don't, don't enjoy those, uh, very well. But this is a great book with some real cocktails in here. Most, uh, you know, in, in going through and, and checking out the ingredients of. Of these cocktails, uh, generally when you have a compilation book, you, somebody slides in who's kind of got a woowoo or, you know, something like that going on in the book. And, and I don't see any of those cocktails in this book. And I, and I, I thought that was pretty impressive.

Kate:

Thank you for saying that. You know what, it's not like they're not out there. They definitely are out there, but we've, we don't want people to necessarily. You don't, we don't wanna tell people to make those at home.

Mark:

Right. I don't think I saw a blue drink in the whole book.

Kate:

There might be one blue drink. There's actually a really fun drink that has, um, that has a Swedish candy fish in it. Um, that I kind of love that drink. I can't remember what the name of it is, but I mean, there's a few things that. I would call Clever that some people might call gimmicky. Yeah, Uhhuh. You know, it is. It's a drink called Finding Nemo from Sidebar in San Diego, and it is unfortunately lightly blue. Oh, you,

Speaker 2:

you've blew up your book.

Kate:

I blew up my book, sorry. But I just put one.

Speaker 2:

Okay, fair enough.

Francis:

Now, how did you go about collecting these great cocktails and they're from all across the country and you credit the bars where they come from? I mean, would, did you solicit submissions or did you. Ask your local writers, how did you, how did you come up with them? We

Kate:

did. That's such a good question. We actually did both. We, and when we travel, we just make a point of going to as many bars as possible.

Francis:

I do the same. We do do the same thing. I'm not writing a book though. I just, I just like them.

Kate:

We have to get your recommendations. Maybe next year we can even put New Brunswick, New Jersey in here. I, wow.

Francis:

I'm all in big time. The

Kate:

destination

Francis:

I'm all in. Well, but we

Kate:

definitely, we, we also have stringers across the country who recommend because we, we want, um, the, the places that we recommend aren't necessarily new because, you know, those new bars don't always last. Mm-hmm. But we want them to be great or cool or have something to recommend them. So some of them are new. Some of them have been fantastic destinations for a long time now, and some of them. You know, they all represent something good for us. Did you,

Francis:

did you encounter any, uh, any situations where there was a bar that wanted to put a certain cocktail in as, as their submission and you were like, no, no. I can't do that with the Apple pucker. Can't do it.

Kate:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, no. Um, gold swagger. Well let, um, we yeah. People, um. There's definitely, no matter how good the bar is, you know, no matter what, people are still serving a lot of cosmopolitans. Mm-hmm. And so you have to winnow out the recipes that you want. Mm-hmm. But, um, but bartenders, everybody, the bar managers have all been fantastically helpful for us.

Mark:

But you're an editor, this shouldn't be a

Francis:

big deal.

Kate:

No, it's, yeah. You can make it work.

Francis:

And is this gonna be an annual thing going forward? Food in one? Yeah, I think so.

Kate:

We're really, I mean, even though we think this is really the year of the cocktail. Um, I think it's, it's the kind of thing, it, it gives us this great opportunity to find out what's going on and what people are drinking because cocktails are in fact a little bit of mirror of the way people are cooking now. Like we found a lot of really great cocktails have herbs in them. People are doing like gin and tonics with tarun and um, and we're seeing like herbs and desserts too. I think it. I think in some ways, like you can't draw a whole bunch of parallels, but there's definitely a correlation between how much fun and what kind of sophisticated drinks people are making and what they're doing with their food and other, you know, in other areas.

Francis:

And you say it's the year of the cocktail. Can you elaborate on that a little bit for us?

Kate:

Yeah. We, we just feel like, um. At food and Wine, we feel like, um, this year, 2006 is a time when cocktails have really come into their own, where a lot of restaurants have set up very serious bar programs and they've installed kind of destination bartenders, like people who make their own tonic water. It's not even like squeezing fresh juice anymore. That's, that's so 2005, right, right. You've gotta make your own, you've gotta make your

Francis:

own tincture of CLO where you're not really cool. Exactly.

Kate:

That's exactly right. Um, so we feel like we've just, we're just seeing so many people doing that and, um. And doing it, not, not to be gimmicky, but really because people's, you know, drinking habits have just gotten sophisticated.

Francis:

Actually, when we come back, I want to talk more about, about bars and bartenders making their own ingredients and stuff that you can make at home. It's probably easier for a bartender to do it, but we'll be talking more with that in just a moment. Kate Crater is a senior editor to. Food and Wine Magazine and she's largely responsible for food and wine Cocktails 2006, which is a great guide to cocktails. You can learn more about it by going to our website@restaurantguysradio.com. Back in just a moment, Kate, we were, we were talking before the break about destination bartenders making their own ingredients. Mm-hmm. And you know, it, it's not just gimmicky. We came out with, um, we, we, um, wanted to use Grenadine in a couple of old drinks.'cause I like, I like resurrecting old drinks in, in Catherine Lombardi. Mm-hmm. Our place. Oh, great. And, you know, granite was originally made from Pomegranate Uhhuh, and. You, I mean, the current stuff is just red sweet stuff filled with corn syrup. Yeah. It, it's like

Mark:

buying the pre-made Mr. Tea sour mix. Pretty much. It's, it really is to use it as an ingredient.

Francis:

And so what we did, and what I found out that, uh, Nicholas Ferrari did, independent of us who owns a restaurant called Restaurant Nicholas here in Jersey as well, we've made our own Grenadine that really tastes like something. Mm-hmm. Isn't that great? And you, you have to make it because it, it, it doesn't exist. It's not just

Mark:

red and sweet.

Francis:

Yeah. So, but you're seeing a lot more of that out there.

Kate:

Yeah, we're seeing a lot of, we're seeing, I don't know if this is a long lasting trend, quite frankly, because I don't know if it's like time-wise or money-wise worth everybody's effort to do it, especially because I think mixers are like what you can get commercially. There's a lot of bad grenadine, but people are starting to make a lot more bitters. Mm-hmm. You can see much more kind of custom made and, and very tasty bitters on the market now. Yep. But definitely there's a whole trend right now in bar chefs. Like they're called bar chefs. They're not even called bartenders. Mm-hmm. They're called bar chefs and they make like they've been making tonic water, they've been getting quinine and making tonic water. Sure. They've been totally like following you guys and making grenadine and things like that, and it makes a huge, fantastic difference in the drink. Well, right

Mark:

now we're carrying about 20 different bidders and. And each one Wow. Has a different flavor profile, really Uhhuh and, and each one should be used for a different purpose. Mm-hmm. I think it's, it's an ingredient just like the whiskeys different than the scotch is different than the gin uhhuh. And that the different gins are different, the different bitters are different. Mm-hmm.

Francis:

You know, and I remember when I first started bartending, they taught me that a Manhattan, which is a very basic drink, was uh, made with rye and sweet remove. There was no mention of Bitters. Mm-hmm. You know, and if there was one bottle of Bitters behind the bar, it had been open since the bar opened 20 years before and it was actually solid on the inside of the bottle. Oh my God. And you know, to see what you know, because it was the old Anur was what you'd have. And then maybe Anur and PEs, which are the two bitters, but. Bitters are really integral to making a cocktail. Hey, listen, we'll come back after the news and talk more with Kate Crater from Food and Wine about cocktails and the new, uh, cocktail guide from Food and Wine Cocktails 2006.

Mark:

Our

Francis:

guest today is Kate Crater. She's the senior editor at Food and Wine Magazine and she oversees, uh, their reporting on news trends and restaurant coverage. She's also the editor of the Food and Wine Cocktail section. She is a taken the lead in this new book, which is Food and Wine Cocktails 2006. It's a guide of over 150 of the best drinks and snacks, all from the hottest bars, plus an essential guide to American nightlife. Um, now we talked earlier about this being, you mentioned that it was sort of the year of the cocktail, and this is indeed, by many accounts. The two, 2006 is the 200th anniversary of the American cocktail, and even the Museum of the American Cocktail has put on a bit of a celebration to, celebrate that sort of thing. Are you involved in any of that stuff?

Kate:

No. I wish we are. I wish we were. We definitely, we, I we're gonna attend some of those events for sure, but I didn't realize it was the 200th anniversary. That's excellent.

Francis:

Well, there's a, there's a, it, it's sort of the 200th anniversary now. No one knows when the cocktail was invented to, to begin with. Right. But. It seems as though the first mention had always been considered. Two. 2006 was the first time. 1806. I'm sorry. 1806 was the first time I'm here for you. A cocktail had been mentioned in print Uhhuh. Um, but they, so they, they, the Museum of the American Cocktail is launching this by city Celebration, which we're gonna go to and cover. We'll be there with our microphone. Right. Good work. Uh, we're gonna do the New York one and, that's, this coming month, but. What happened at the end of last year was a new reference, uh, came about from 1803 that was just discovered.

Mark:

Whoops. So it's the 203rd anniversary of the cocktail. Exactly. But the invitations were already printed, so we're going with it. You know what I

Francis:

mean? Now you've seen. Cocktails, you, you say cocktails are sort of rising to the level of food with, bartenders calling themselves. Bar chefs mm-hmm. Are youre Now that was the first guy that I knew that did, that was a guy named Albert Remer at a place called Town in Manhattan. Mm-hmm. And he had printed on his card bar Chef Uhhuh instead of bartender. And he really was,'cause all this stuff that he made himself. And he really constructed his cocktails very carefully, as carefully as any appetizer. Um, are people really using that term across the country?

Kate:

People Are there another, another, um. Popular term is mixologist. Mm-hmm.

Francis:

Yeah. Mixologist I can get, but when somebody calls themselves a bar chef, unless it's Albert, I'm like, come on, you're a bar chef. Show me

Mark:

your ingredients. Exactly. You gotta show me your ingredients. That's what it's all about.

Francis:

No, I don't know. And the bar I have, I have a problem with the term of art Bar Chef. Oh, see, I don't, Albert can use it. Nobody else does. You

Mark:

know why I, I don't have a problem with it because a, a bartender. It's a totally different thing. And I, I'll never forget my very first bartending job, a guy was training me how to bartend. And I said, and he said, uh, okay, here's what you gotta know. Okay. Uh, doers and water doers and tonic. Here's how you make your drinks. Uh, and, uh, if somebody orders a drink called an old fashioned, you just tell'em you don't have any bitters and you can't make it. And are you serious? I swear. I swear. That's how I was trained. You know, it was, it was the middle eighties and people just didn't care that much. Yeah. And I remember it was a sad, sad time for cocktails

Francis:

and they, and they especially didn't care that much in the dump you were working in back then. I remember the place. I think, um, I have

Kate:

say though, I think, I think it's true, Bar Chef definitely has like a pretentious ring to it and not everybody, you know, you can be very skeptical of people, but. Actually, I think that somebody like, like Stefan Remer can say it and his brother or Albert Traer can say it. And then his brother Stefan is also right, an excellent bar chef as well. He's at a place called 2 0 2 in kind of the meat packing district. Mm-hmm. And he does this great thing, like he challenges people. They can bring in an ingredient and he'll make a drink for it. Like you could bring in your candy canes at Christmas. Wow. And he might think about it for a day or two and then he'll construct. A drink, a really tasty drink or a very thoughtful drink to go with it. And I think that's wonderful. Like I think that is kind of a Bar Chef.

Francis:

I'm going down there with Cod Love Royal and we'll see what he has. We'll see. We'll see what he's made of. He'll test his stuff now. Now let's turn the conversation.'cause I think this book is really relevant to now the I I, I think that the, it's wonderful that the art of the bartender is returning. Um. But what this book speaks to is people are making cocktails more at home. Mm-hmm. What do you see the state of the cocktail party and the cocktail at home?

Kate:

We've seen, well, you know what? In the past year or two, I would say, like even though we think 2006 is the year of the cocktail, having like cocktail parties at home really got big. Even like a year ago, I think. And it's got to do, I think with the way people eat at home a lot now, they have like these kind of small plates parties. They don't necessarily have full on sit down three course dinner parties. Mm-hmm. They have a lot of fun when people don't necessarily sit down when they can like mingle and cocktails go so well with that. Plus, you know, in the way that everybody, especially guys love grills and they love to get all the, you know, every single grill, the space, art, grill, and accessories. I think there's a lot of fun that you can have with cocktails in their accessories. So I think people like outfit their like cool bar areas with everything and then you have to have a cocktail party to celebrate

Mark:

and to show off. You know that exactly that mingling is a key ingredient to every great cocktail. Mm-hmm. So,

Francis:

yeah, exactly. You know, it's funny because, and I think cocktail parties are a great idea to have at home or to have in a restaurant because, you know, even at political fundraisers, what tends to happen, I mean, sometimes we go to, to, you know, some sort of fundraiser where, you know, it's$500 a plate. Wow. Very often Mark and I will go and you go for the cocktail hour. And a lot of people do this'cause we, a lot of these happen in hotels around New Brunswick. We'll do a lot of dinners after dinners. Mm-hmm. Like there's a, there's a 500 plate rubber chicken dinner at the something hotel or you know, a quarter mile away. And people will go for the cocktail hour.'cause during the cocktail hour you can see 50 people, 60 people. Once you're seated at that table of 10 that your company bought. Why do you need to be there and sit at that table at 10? So we have a, we do a lot of business in, in the restaurant and people coming after the cocktail hour somewhere, they bag out before they sit down, skip the dinner, uhhuh, and sit down. And I think that really speaks to the utility of a cocktail. A cocktail party, or a cocktail hour.

Kate:

That's an excellent, excellent point.

Francis:

Well now, um, I think that. One of the things that I've seen, one of the disturbing trends that I've seen that I don't support mm-hmm. Is the growth of the size of the martini glass. Mm-hmm. And you have some beautiful illustrations here in your book of different sizes of glasses that all look sort of appropriate. Mm-hmm. Um, there is sort of a big, is more aesthetic that's been going on with our, and I see. You know, the, the martini when, you know Dale Degra would make them at the Rainbow Room in the eighties, and they were very true to the history of them. It'd be a three, it'd be three ounces of liquor. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Whereas now you go in someplace and have these nine ounce martini glasses and I think, oh my God, who's gonna drink seven ounces? I mean, if you have two of them, that's a half a bottle of gin. Right. Are

Kate:

people you're staying away from,

Francis:

I mean, so what about glassware in bars and restaurants and at home? You guys actually address this in the book as well.

Kate:

We have an in an out list and we think that those big unwieldy, um. Martini glasses as well as, um, some of the margarita glasses are out. Like we, we think some things are in, and we think, um, those super big ones. And anyway, like everything slot is all over the place in them. Mm-hmm. You know, it's ridiculous. So I, I completely a hundred percent agree with you. Not everywhere. I mean, I think somewhere in the, some places in the country they're still going strong. Mm-hmm. You know, but Jersey.

Speaker 7:

Yeah. Sorry. Like throwing in Jersey we're a little bit behind

Kate:

Brunswick. Right. You guys have made it safer for, there you go. We, we, we are making

Mark:

the streets safe for, for cocktails everywhere as quickly as we can. We use, we use smaller glasses, but I mean,

Francis:

you know, why do you want seven ounces of bourbon in your

Mark:

Well, because it's gonna be warm and, yeah. It

Francis:

doesn't stay cold.

Mark:

That's the one thing that, that I love that you said as far as a what's out thing? Mm-hmm. Are those little individual. Uh, shakers. Yeah. Where, where your drink gets get, just gets watered down and watered down and watered down and watered down. And you get a, a, you know, half water cocktail by the end. Exactly. Okay. Everybody listen up.

Francis:

You make a cocktail, you put the right amount of ice in it, you shake it until it's done. And then it's done. Pour the drink out and throw the shaker. So this is having the shaker away. Well, I think that, that, that's interesting. Well, the, those big glasses though, I still have them at home and I like them at home. Mm-hmm. But the idea, it's sort of like when you go to a restaurant in the, the chef has a big plate to work on. Mm-hmm. And I like martinis or Manhattan's at home. Manhattan's in the winter, martinis in the summer, but. I have those huge glasses, but I put three and a half ounces of liquor and then that's the whole idea. Uhhuh, is it supposed to be, you know, but yeah, so you're, as you're against big glasses as well.

Kate:

Way against them. Yeah, I think, I think because unfortunately, like you're smart and you can exercise restraint, but definitely, I think if you go to a bar and you get a big martini glass, it's only half fill. People are gonna be like, what's up? You know? They mm-hmm. So when it, it, you're exactly right. The drink gets warm, it gets watered down. If there's any little bit of ice in it, it's um, it's silly.

Mark:

And I'm against the guy who drinks the nine ounce martini because I've had to call him a cab. I'm against it too.

Francis:

Oh, well now. It. It do. Is there a favorite cocktail that you have or school of cocktails that you have that you think really works at a home cocktail party?

Kate:

That is an excellent question. Um, I think, I think, I always wanna think punches are making a comeback. Mm-hmm. And I'm not sure if they really have, I think I'm in a minority, but I think it's wishful

Mark:

thinking on your part, what a parties are. Great. Because. Because a punch is made. Mm-hmm. And then everybody just keeps going back to it.

Kate:

Yeah. I think, I think they're just fun. But, um, I'm personally a big sidecar girl. I love, I love brandy sidecars. I'm not sure if they lend themselves so well. The parties, I think people still have a lot of fun, um, with mojito like drinks. Mm-hmm. Because it's really easy to find like mint, you know, and squeeze some lemon juice. And then you can have like a really refreshing. Cocktail that's kind of transportive, you know, that makes you feel like you're somewhere else or might remind you of a great vacation.

Francis:

So we're gonna, we're gonna transport to the other side of this commercial break in just a moment where we're gonna talk more with Kate Crater, senior editor at Food and Wine, about their new, uh, guide Cocktails 2006 by food and wine, which you can learn more about at our website. We'll be talking with her in just a moment. Our guest is Kate Crater. She's a senior editor of Food and Wine Magazine and largely responsible for the beautiful guy. They have out Cocktails 2006, which you can learn more about at our website and pick it up. It's really a great cocktail book to have hanging out at home right next to Anthony Julio's edited Mr. Boston guy. Those are the. Those are, those are our first picks for, uh, cocktail reference works. Do you like, uh, the Mr. Boston guide? Have you heard about that? Yeah, he, yeah. Yeah. That was such job. Such a terrible Mr. Boston was so irrelevant for so long. Uhhuh. And, and Anthony Gilio, our, our evidently mutual friend, uh, edited it Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. And now it's a, it's an, the current, it's, it's a book again. It's a real bartender's guide again. Mm-hmm. But don't if there's a 2-year-old copy out on the shelves, you don't want that one.'cause that's a bad one. Make sure that we got the one edited by Anthony Gilio. The nice thing about these cocktail books is they're not necessarily designed for bartenders. The bartenders are a good bartender, always reading. They're designed for people to have at home, and we were talking about cocktail parties at home.

Kate:

Mm-hmm. What

Francis:

do you think makes, what are the elements of a good cocktail party at home?

Kate:

That is another excellent question. We're full of them. We're, I'm sorry, we're full of something. I'm not sure we're, you guys are on. Um, I think, I think to have a good cocktail party, it helps to have like a theme drink, you know, just to pick a drink and have it be your specialty. Mm-hmm. And then you can have, I would say you shouldn't go crazy and have like five different kinds of spirits or boozes, but I think if you have. Two or three. So if someone really doesn't drink gin, like even if your, if your specialty is gonna be some kind of fantastic, gimlet or whatever, you can have options for people. Mm-hmm. But I would not offer more than three drinks. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think it's good to have a. A little series of mixers. Um, so, but not, you know, then it gets really boring too. On the other hand, you know, how many, um, bad parties have you been to where there's just a lineup of tonic and orange juice and cranberry juice? So I think it's really fun to have one. I'm gonna say all of them. All of them. I,

Francis:

you know what I'm remembering, I'm remembering my parents' cocktail parties, and they would be all, all that stuff would be on the dryer, in the utility group. I think I went to that party. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd serve my aunt's highballs. You know, got Aunt Lila highball. Okay.

Mark:

You really have an Aunt Lila? I do, I do. She's great, by the way.

Francis:

Um, well, the, the other thing, when you talk about parties at home, we, you'd alluded to earlier, making a punch. Mm-hmm. Now what makes a great punch? I mean, seal test sherbert when in my family's punches, right there with the, the Canada dried ginger rail uhhuh. But what, and I, but I, I do love punches. What makes a great punch? Work.

Kate:

Um, it doesn't, you don't want it to be too fruity. I don't wanna say anything about the Sherbert your family Sherbert punch, but um, but that might not necessarily be the best one to have, especially now like you can do What if

Speaker 7:

you used a better sherbert? I'm just kidding. You

Kate:

use a better sherbert. Yeah, exactly. Ho Andaz for Bay really helps. Yeah. Yeah. Upgrade. You get better in the seal system. Upgrade. Um, I think actually you can do fun things with that. We did have a really fun drink. Um, we did have a very fun drink that, um, that had sher birded in it either this year or last year. But you can do, you can do like little things like you can make ice cubes. We have a really cool cucumber cooler. that's not a punch, but you can easily use like cucumber, like ice cubes that you make either with fruit juice or something in them. Um, so when they melt the drink, the punch doesn't just matter out. The drinks all get diluted. Sure. So, um, so you can do fun things like that, but I think, I think a keto a good punch is to kind of keep it simple and not put in like 10 different kinds of juices. So it ends up tasting like Hawaiian Punch or like some weird. Fruit nectar that you had somewhere, you know, and

Francis:

there's, there, there are some old classic punches that you can pick up. Actually, there's, I mean, cocktails 2006 is a great book to have. Um, there are some old punches in the Mr. Boston guide mm-hmm. And in Dale DE's book mm-hmm. Um, the craft of the cocktail. Mm-hmm. He has a great little punch section there, and I've made a few of those punches. Mm-hmm. But as you, as you talk about Kate, the ice is supremely important. Mm-hmm. And when you make a punch. You take one block of ice in the center of that punch, even if you know, if even if it's a water ice. Mm-hmm. It's gotta be one piece of ice. It can't be ice piece. That's suchs an excellent point because I mean, and that's the, it's sort of festive to see that big

Mark:

iceberg floating around in there and also it, it'll melt slower and keep your drink and keep your punch cooler at the same time.

Kate:

You guys are good. That's exactly, that's actually the most important thing we've said on this, on the whole show is, is really like ice. Ice is, is one of the most important things in the cocktail besides like the quality of spirits that you use. And if you have a big block of ice sitting in the middle of your punch bowl, it's gonna keep it cool. It's not gonna melt out so quickly.

Mark:

brilliant suggestion. One of the things we talk about on this show a lot is ice and is, is just that if you wanna make a great cocktail mm-hmm. You have to have great ice cubes. I mean we bought a special ice machine just to make cocktails with really, uh, you know, that makes the one inch by one inch cubes, but. But in the home is one of the few places you have an advantage over a lot of restaurants mm-hmm. Is because you have the, the ice cube trays. You use those one inch by one inch cubes mm-hmm. Which actually make much better cocktails than your typical half moon restaurant. Yeah. Uh, ice machine, ice that. That you get in, you know, a, a hotel or or a restaurant, get using those one inch by one inch cubes to make cocktails can make all the difference in the world.

Francis:

Exactly. And you need to be careful if you go out and buy ice, if you're buying hollow ice cubes as, as, sometimes you can buy now, sometimes you can buy those cubes, but if you out and you buy hollow ice cubes, they're gonna dilute your drinks. They're gonna change the flavor for a five of your drinks if you shake the drinks at all enough to mix them. They're gonna dilute out and you're better off if the only ice cubes you can find to buy are the hollow ones mm-hmm. Is to just make ice in your own refrigerator. Those, those

Mark:

cubes simply melt too fast and add too much water, and that's really what the problem is. Exactly.

Francis:

You know what the three of us are? A bunch of dorks talking about, right? Oh, Al, I thought we were really smart. Yeah, well, but you believe me, you wanna have one of the three of us put in your cocktail party academy. We can't cross

Mark:

a dork. We're we're talking about the thermodynamics of ice here. You know, this is

Francis:

important stuff. Uh, well, you know, it is important stuff. It's not like somebody dies if we don't get the cocktail party right. But we really do take our jobs very seriously. Our guest. Today is Kate Crater. She is the senior editor at Food and Wine Magazine, and we're not talking about food or wine, we're talking about cocktails and the great new cocktail guide they have out, which you can find out more about by checking our website. We're gonna be back in just a moment, talking with Kate some more. Kate, you're based in New York. Right? Exactly. So what are your recommendations for the top places to go and get cocktails in New York City?

Kate:

Oh my goodness. Well, luckily, luckily'cause we were just talking about it. Um, I'm gonna tell you that, um, I really love the Flatiron. Mm-hmm.

Francis:

Flatiron Lounge Flat Lounge,

Kate:

which is in, um, I guess Gramercy Park area. Sure. I think it's 19th Street in the Flatiron

Francis:

Building. Yep.

Kate:

I love what Audrey Saunders cocktails at the Pegu Club. Mm-hmm. One of our favorites. Yay. A place

Mark:

we talk about a lot.

Kate:

It's so, it's so good. It's so smart. you know, when you sit down at tables, when you order a drink, they bring you these little droppers of, um, of different flavoring so you can adjust your drinks slightly if you wanted a little taner, they have fresh lemon juice if you want. A little sweeter, they have some syrup. Um, I love that. I think employees, it's like the,

Francis:

it's like the salt and pepper of uh, exactly. Of uh, and the place

Mark:

we talked about bar chefs earlier, the places that we're talking about right now. That's what these guys are. Total bar chef. These guys are bar chefs. Exactly. And you were gonna say,

Kate:

I like employees only too, although it gets a little crazy. Um, I think, I think that they have some really fun inspired drinks.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. And, and nice little, little menu too that I enjoy. The employees only menu. I'll tell you know. All

Kate:

that's, you guys are experts. You

Francis:

know why I really like employees only. Huh? We have, in our restaurant, we have commission. You like to. Drink cocktail. Yes. We, we have that end. We have commissioned, uh, some reproductions of Tamara Loka, who was a painter who painted in the twenties, Uhhuh, and she did a lot of great work. And, and Tamara Loka is featured throughout the restaurant. The Oh, really? Prince from, yeah. They're, they're, they're lovely. But Tamara Loka painted a lot of like one breast Baird portraits and a lot of nudes that are awesome, but I just have too much corporate business. I can't risk it. Uhhuh and an employee's only. You can. You can see the hair for you. Yeah. You can see the other ones that we can show. So very nice. So that there's one more draw for employees. If I put those up,

Mark:

my employees would probably sue me for Yeah, exactly. And the big

Francis:

corporations will stop coming to dinner. Hey Kate, it's been a lot of fun having you. So great to talk to you guys. Always great to you. Come back again and speak to us again. I would love that. That's great. Kate Crater. The magazine is Food and Wine. You should pick it up. And the book they've just put out is cocktails 2006, over 150 of the best drinks and snacks from the hottest bars. We didn't even talk about the snacks, which they have recipes for in here. Um, and it's an essential guide to American nightlife and, uh, and next year we better be in it. She's the hot trouble. That's all I have to say. Hope you've enjoyed the hour listening to the restaurant. Guys. I'm Francis Sean. And I'm Mark Pesco. We are the restaurant guys. Central Jersey 1450. Time is 12 noon.