Charlie Trotter Gives Lessons in Excellence *V*

The Inside Track

The Guys have been fans of Charlie’s for a long time and share passion for experiential dining.

“The vision we've had here has been to try to deliver an experience where the food part of it, the service part of it, the wine and beverage part of it, and the ambiance all add up to something greater than the sum of the parts. So with myself as the chef-operator obsessing about food, almost to the point where it's perverse, I still don't even think that food is the most important part of the dining experience,” Charlie Trotter on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025 

Bio

Charlie Trotter opened Charlie Trotter’s Restaurant in 1987. Twice it received two Michelin stars. Restaurant Charlie in Las Vegas received the Michelin Guide One Star Award. He opened other concepts such as a high-end delicatessen and a seafood restaurant in Mexico. He received the James Beard Foundation Humanitarian of the Year Award for his philanthropic work. Charlie was the host of the 1999 PBS cooking show The Kitchen Sessions with Charlie Trotter.

Info

Lessons in Excellence from Charlie Trotter by Paul Clarke

Full 2009 Episode

https://www.restaurantguyspodcast.com/episode-26-charlie-trotter

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Transcript

Mark: 1:47

Morning, Francis. Good morning, mark. Pretty special show today.

Francis: 1:51

Very special show today everyone. We have as a guest, uh, coming up a little bit later, we're gonna be talking with Charlie Trotter. And, uh, Charlie Trotter, for those of you who don't know if you've been living under a rock somewhere, uh, is perhaps the most influential chef in America. His restaurant Charlie Trotters in Chicago has been called the Best Restaurant in the world for Wine and Food by Wine Spectator Magazine. Um, he's been called the Best Restaurant in America by several magazines. He has five stars from the Mobile Travel Guide, five Diamonds from aaa. he's a member of Re and Chateau and, and he's an author of o over a dozen books, um, some of which have. Been very important to us. Uh, and he's the father of a generation of, of American cooks. You can't

Mark: 2:32

really get much bigger than that, can you, chef?

Francis: 2:33

No. You can't get bigger than Trotter. That's, that's pretty cool. So he's gonna come and talk to us, um, a little bit later. And one of the interesting things about Chef Trotter is gonna be opening a restaurant in New York.

Mark: 2:43

Yeah, that's gonna be great.

Francis: 2:44

Well, and something that's, that is a little unusual about in, in an era of chefs that, you know, sort of grow as superstar chefs and have multiple television shows and open restaurants all across America and restaurants on two continents and in multiple countries. Charlie Trotter's been doing this for 17 years, and he's been at, you know, rated among the best restaurants in the country, uh, from the very beginning. And he right from the start, and he has a lot of celebrity. Um, but he's gone very, very slowly in expanding. Mm-hmm. And that's one of the reasons Trotter's remains.

Mark: 3:13

Well, he is done a lot of books and a lot of cookbooks and even a, even a television show. But, uh, as far as his, his restaurants expanding, you know, it's been one little piece at a time. Um, and I really respect that.

Francis: 3:24

Absolutely. And when, and so his, his new restaurant that is gonna be opening in the Time Warner Center in New York, uh, coming this spring or summer, I think it'll be opening in the summer is, is pretty exciting. Thing for us here in the East coast to be able to try some of that food without flying 1500 miles to do so. You know, actually try to, many of you may remember there was a chef named David Drake who ran the stage house in, in Scotch Plains for a long time. That's changed ownership and I think they're still doing well. But David, I think when he was cooking, was probably the best chef cooking in New Jersey. Um, no offense to any of my many chef friends, but David was, and man, I know many of them agree. He was, he's an amazingly talented chef and he was the O chef owner. And one year he took his entire kitchen staff to Trotters for dinner. Flew them out to Chicago,

Mark: 4:06

flew them to Chicago dinner. for Chef Trotter. I mean, I think that would be such a compliment that somebody would, who is in their own respect, a very, very good chef. But say, you know what? You wanna see who's really doing it right. Let's go to Chicago. I'll fly you all out there. We'll spend the weekend and we'll go to Trotters and see. What the best restaurant in America's doing

Francis: 4:22

and you know, we, we are really, we're the restaurant guys, but we haven't been to Trout's restaurant and that's have

Mark: 4:26

not,

Francis: 4:26

that's a big hole. We need to fly to Chicago, like this weekend, Chicago,

Mark: 4:29

I haven't been to Chicago since about 85, so it's not fair. Well, he wasn't open yet.

Francis: 4:33

But though we haven't been to, Trout's restaurant, we have take, we've taken a lot of influence from him. One of his proteges, a woman named Roxanne Klein, we were big fans of her restaurant. Whenever we'd go buying wine in California mm-hmm. We would stop into her restaurant and, uh, she was a protege of his. Hopefully we'll talk with Chef Rader about. Her and, and his involvement in raw

Mark: 4:49

food, raw that, I mean, his book Raw, I think kind of was a whole new revolution for food for, just a whole new generation of people that people didn't even consider this as being a, a, a, a line

Francis: 5:01

of cuisine. And we're gonna talk about raw food with Chef Trotter in, in a moment or two, but, but he's influenced us through his books and his books. Some of his books are cookbooks, but some of his books. Are are just, they're, they're used as, um, as guides for business people in general, a management tool for anyone involved in any sort of project, whether it's business or not. And one of the books, which, which meant a lot to us mm-hmm. Was lessons and excellence, what was funny is many of the things that we found in that book. We found that we operate on a similar philosophy. And many of the things that we found in that book that we hadn't previously, uh, operated under mm-hmm. We then adopted as our own philosophy. But I was struck by a quote in the book where he said, and this is a quote from, uh. Lessons in Excellence by Charlie Trady says, I've very rarely brought in anyone from the outside. I've always brought people up, trained them exactly the way I want to train them, and as a result, they helped me to execute the vision that they've learned. Mm-hmm. And you know, I don't know if that was for him, the way he decided he always wanted to do things, but Mark and I, we've run Stage Left, which Thank Heaven has, has received, you know, a claim is one of the best restaurants in Jersey. We've been there for 13 years and that's how we do things, right. Almost everyone who works for us has come up. From a, a busing position, and I don't think that was intentional when we started, including our nature D Yeah. Right. Who's been with us for 11 years or, or, or so.

Mark: 6:14

Well, one of the things that, that I realized very early on it, it really didn't take very much time, is that experience sometimes can be bad. If you work with somebody who's, gotten bad habits from somebody else, you need to reteach that person. Much more difficult than teaching someone is to unteach them and then teach them again. And also, you know, a lot of restaurants, certainly in this area, people just don't have the right attitude. They, they don't have the right attitude about restaurants that it, that it's the person sitting in the seat needs to perceive nothing but magic happening at their tables. And the answer to, to all questions should always be yes, or of course.

Francis: 6:49

Well, I think also that, and again, we didn't start with this as a policy, we just found ourselves, we always said, you know, our favorite relationships are long-term relationships. Mm-hmm. You know, and so we have very four of the restaurants in this area, we have very low turnover. We have a number of people who've been with us four in five years. Mm-hmm. And they're the most valuable people. Because these are people, yeah. They're waiters in the restaurant, they're captains or sommelier or the MA of mage in the restaurant. But there are also people that we, at the end of the night, we sit down and we say, you know what, what about what happens tonight? Or what do you think about taking the restaurant in this new direction? Mm-hmm. And there are people whose opinions are really important'cause you're all following the same dream,

Mark: 7:23

you know, in, in, and actually I was rereading through lessons in excellence last night. One of the things that I, that I remembered that, that really was similar in the two organizations. Most of our employees work for us, either fewer than 30 days or more than four years. Yeah. And, and the reason for that is. It's a very hard job and most people aren't cut out for it. Most people aren't cut out to be the best to do, to be the absolute top of the top.

Francis: 7:50

But it's not only that it's too hard, but it's also, it's not only too hard, it's that you have to really be into it. Mm-hmm. I think that people who work for us make good money, but. It's not, it's not enough. Mm-hmm. We're much too hard to work for. Right. We're much too mean to work for. Um, if it's just about the money they have to love great food and love great wine and it needs to be people who are into food and wine and people who read and people who. People get it and people who need to be great about this. I,

Mark: 8:13

I, one of the things I say to all our employees, or actually all, all our applicants, when I'm trying to scare them off, and I, and truly when I'm interviewing somebody, once they've gotten to that second interview with me, I am trying to scare them off. I'm trying to make sure they understand all the bad things that are, that are gonna happen to them. And I tell'em they have to have three qualities that have to be reasonably intelligent. They have to be extremely hardworking, and they have to have a desire to be the best. Because if you don't have the desire to be the best, it's not worth it. It's just not worth it. The difference between good and very good is relatively small as compared to the difference between very good and excellent

Francis: 8:48

and, and you're also trying to scare them away because if they come and work for you for a week and then they, they run from the room mm-hmm. Burst into tears and run from the room, then you've wasted their time and yous being, speaking of being the best though, we're gonna speak with Charlie Trotter, who has been called by many, uh, the best chef in America when we come back and Charlie will be talking with, with us about his new restaurant he's gonna be opening in New York as well as. His myriad interests, and the many people as he's influenced over the years. So do stay tuned to the restaurant guys,

Mark: 9:12

Hello and welcome back. You're listening to Mark Pascal and Francis Shot. We are the restaurant guys. Today our special guest is Chef Charlie Trotter from Trotters in Chicago, author and man extraordinaire. Uh, one of the things that, that Chef Trotter is, and it's really hard to explain this, A great restaurant owner has to be a lot of things, and a, and a great chef owner has to be even more things. I mean, he's an owner businessman, he's a chef, artistic director, he's a marketeer, and he's mare d. Service director, very, very rarely in the world do you see somebody who is extraordinary at all those things. And I wanna introduce our guest, chef Charlie Trotter, who is indeed extraordinary at all those things. Welcome to the show, chef Trotter.

Charlie: 9:57

Thank you very much. I'm, I'm delighted to be with you today.

Francis: 9:59

It's nice to have you. We were talking, uh, just before you came on about your book Lessons in Excellence, which, uh, mark and I run a, a small restaurant here in, in Jersey. Well, it's not so small anymore. We run a medium sized restaurant in here in Jersey for the last 13 years, but. When I read your book Lessons and Excellence, it was literally in one sitting. I started in the afternoon and I just went plowed straight on through. what prompted you to write these books on more than just cooking? I mean, you have books on a number of different issues.

Charlie: 10:26

Well, I, over the years, historically, we have, um, used a lot of outside analogies to what we do in order to help, uh, educate the staff. And so when we've. Conducted staff meetings and, and instructional seminars. It's not just relating specific ideas regarding life in a restaurant or, or service technique or culinary ideology. It's, it's bringing a lot of outside influences in and it's relating the restaurant business to other types of properly run businesses. And so we felt that there were enough things that were in place here that we could set them out as examples and have people take a look and, uh, and draw from that and have perhaps people apply some of these ideas. To their own businesses, regardless if they were restaurants or not.

Francis: 11:10

Do you find that a lot of businesses have taken that, I mean, do you speak to people who are Um, because again, I, I, I, I found that in lessons and excellence, just that very thing that there was for a restaurant, they were extremely useful, but for any business or venture that was a non-profit venture, even the lessons of how to get people involved were, were kind of universal in application.

Charlie: 11:29

interestingly enough, um, and this is kind of what prompted me to even set about putting that book together. For about the past, uh, I guess eight or nine years, I've, I've been doing increasingly more and more public speaking and not just to culinary groups or people interested in hearing about gastronomy or, or life in a restaurant, but to Fortune 500 companies and business school students. And, and so I, I really thought it would be an interesting thing, again, to take some of these ideas and, and put'em forth in a book. But I think a lot of, a lot of businesses out there are looking for ways to. Really think differently and to, uh, you know, you hear that, that cliched term, but to think outside the box. Mm-hmm. And they're, they're looking beyond just the, the motivational speakers like, uh, uh, the, the, the typical folks you find on the business lecture circuit, they're looking to, to, in some cases, chefs and restaurateurs. So it's been exciting for me to sort of, uh, dabble in that, that realm as well.

Mark: 12:21

So everybody talks about how loyal your employees are to you. How do, how do you engender that loyal spirit and, and the people who work for you?

Charlie: 12:31

Well, we've got a philosophy here, which is you get what you give. Mm-hmm. And if you, if you want a lot, you gotta give a lot. Right? And if you want, people to be loyal and to have sort of a, a humble work ethic, you have to exhibit those same, uh, traits. And, and, you know, people need to, need to be treated with the utmost of respect. And, um, and they need to feel like they're part of something that, that is beyond just running a business day to day. They need to feel that they're part of something that is evolving and improving and, and refining itself. Perpetually

Mark: 12:57

one. One of the things that you, you write about in your books that I, that I just love is that you need to lead rather than manage, you need to, take people along and take them along on your ride with you, and make them share your vision. What you also wrote, a restaurant should be your own vision. What, what is your vision for your restaurant? And, and certainly you can talk about your new restaurant at the same time.

Charlie: 13:18

Well, the, the vision we've had here, we're just about to celebrate 18 years. Um. Has been to try to deliver an experience where the, the food part of it, the service part of it, the wine beverage part of it, and the ambiance all add up to something greater than the sum of the parts. So with myself as the, as the chef operator with me obsessing about food, almost to the point where it's perverse, I, I still don't even think that food is the most important part of the dining experience. Mm-hmm. Uh, services and, and we've always emphasized that this has always been a restaurant where we placed a, a huge premium on, on service and, and so much so that we have members of the kitchen team work in the dining room and, and, um, and we have guest chefs two or three every day. We have for 18 years. And so our culinary team is quite used to having visitors and they understand just how crucial that the service part of the whole experience is.

Francis: 14:11

Now, Charlie, you have for a long time, been considered by men to be the best chef in in, in America. Um, and for, for 18 years, you know, we've seen the rise of chefs who came along, you know, 10 years after you were open, who have restaurants on different coasts, on different continents in a cooking show, and, and you've really resisted the urge to do that. You sort of stayed with, with Charlie Trotters. I know you have the restaurant in Mexico mm-hmm. As well. And, and just now you're, you're looking at opening a restaurant in New York. Why did you decide to resist that temptation? Obviously, people would've built restaurants for you all over the world to put your name on it. Why did you resist so long?

Charlie: 14:47

Well, like a lot of my colleagues, uh, a number of intriguing offers have come my way over the years. And, um, for the most part though, I'll be honest with you, a lot of people up there talk a big game. They, they, think that they know what excellence is. They think that they know what quality is. Uh, but primarily, primarily they're interested in just, uh, making a dollar and, and, mm-hmm. Using, you know, your reputation to. To, to leverage that. And that's never been our motivation. I, I think we, we spent a good deal of time, a a 10 year period where I, I think our primary form of expression was not opening restaurants, but writing cookbooks. Mm-hmm. And, and that's been a very, uh, gratifying thing because it's allowed us to sort of put the philosophies down and, we've touched upon a lot of different subjects with the books and, uh. And as o offices have come our way, the Mexico opportunity is fantastic. Mm-hmm. Uh, there's a company one and only, uh, resorts, and there are, I think seven of them in the portfolio right now. Two in Mauritius and, and one in the Maldives, one in Dubai. Um, there's, uh, one of the properties in Mauritius has an L DCO restaurant. They have the Ocean Club in The Bahamas, which has a John George restaurant. And, and these are folks that really believe in, in quality food service, food and beverage service. And when they approached us to do this project in Mexico. We knew we could work with them. They had a vision for excellence. They were renovating this entire resort from top to bottom and giving us free rein with the, uh, with the signature restaurant and the room service and things like that. and then when it comes to New York, you know, I, who wouldn't want to try to operate in the greatest food city in the world? It, it's always been exciting for me to be there. I have many, many clients that fly in from New York. Mm-hmm. Uh, obviously a lot of, uh, culinary friends, the great chefs, you know, them all, or, or New York. And, um, and when, uh, my colleagues, Began to, uh, to become part of the Time Warner Restaurant collection. And, and they approached me. I said, you know, that, that would be great. I would love to do something with the, you know, my, my esteemed friends and colleagues. Thats

Mark: 16:33

great space with some other great people in that building, that's for sure.

Francis: 16:35

Well, we're gonna talk more with Chef Trotter about excellence and about how to make excellence work, because the thing is, occasionally you'll find a restaurant that's really excellent for the six months that sell excellent until it goes outta business because. They don't run the business side of it as, well as they, are able to pursue their vision. But to do that sustainably is what Charlie Trotter does perhaps better than anybody. We'll be talking with him more about that in just a moment. You're listening to the restaurant guys,

Mark: 16:57

Welcome, you're listening to the Restaurant guys, mark Pascal and Francis Shot. Today we're here with Chef Charlie Trotter of Trotters in Chicago and soon to be, uh, Trotter Seafood in Manhattan. Charlie, when people don't get into this business or you don't get into this business, this end of the business anyway, to make huge profits, that's, that's not the plan going in, but. Your restaurant needs to be sustainable. It's gotta, it's gotta sustain itself. It's gotta, it, it has to be a business. And I think, so, so many people don't understand that there's a balance between those two things. That it is both a business and a place where people spend their entertainment dollars. Yep. how do you go about holding that balance?

Charlie: 17:37

Well, you know, restaurants like this one, you can generate, uh. A, a decent amount of money, but you, you also have to plow so much of it back into the business year in and year out. Mm-hmm. Upgrade things, improve things, refine things, repaint, recar, uh, add more wines to the, to the cellar and, and,

Mark: 17:55

sometimes add more cellar to the cellar.

Charlie: 17:57

Yeah. Or more cellars. Uh, but it, you really gotta make that long term commitment. And, and, you know, you think, well, I'm gonna invest x amount of dollars to open it and, and trust me soon enough, you need to start repairing and replacing and, and doing all this stuff. And, and it, and it is endless. It really is. Mm-hmm.

Francis: 18:12

How do you strike the balance there, Charlie? I mean, where do you find, I mean, you obviously chose the, the project in Mexico and the project in New York because you found them to be economically sustainable and, you know, we, we talk to investors all the time and people don't realize that the return on a high-end, uh, restaurant is lower as a percentage than if you were to buy some McDonald's franchises. How, what was different about the Mexican project and the New York project and your, and your Chicago project that, you know, made it make sense financially at least?

Charlie: 18:38

Well, in Mexico it's um. You know, it, just the sheer volume going, you know, people going to the resort, staying there. Um, the other high-end resorts down there, those folks are always looking for other places to eat. Uh, we just felt that we could, um, we could continue to attract people to, uh, to, to sustain what we're doing. And New York is gonna be the same. I mean, we're, we're in an environment where. You know, there's something like 8,000 people a day go through that building.

Speaker 5: 19:03

Mm-hmm. Um,

Charlie: 19:04

the Time Warner employees, the, uh, the, the people that are there to shop, the people that visit the Whole Foods or the Equinox Health Center, there's the Mandarin Hotel above it. You know, it's in an area that, um, that's really seen a lot of, uh, revitalization in the last few years. That whole Columbus Circle

Speaker 5: 19:18

outside

Charlie: 19:18

corridor. And it just, and then it seemed in combination with my colleagues that, that there would be, there'd be enough draw that, that people would flow into that building.

Mark: 19:28

Yeah. For anybody who hasn't seen that building, it is just a spectacularly beautiful place with spectacularly beautiful places in it.

Francis: 19:36

And actually in the restaurants you'll find spectacularly beautiful people. As Mark and I have been, have been there fairly often, but it is often, and Chef Tro with you is sort of the final jewel in the, in the Crown. It's really has become. Overnight the, the epicenter of food in New York. Mm-hmm. Which is perhaps the greatest food town in America. I have a very important question for you, goodly. Um, I did a little reading about you, and of course I've read your books in the past and, but I, I didn't know this, I didn't hear this fact until last night when I was on the internet, um, looking stuff up, all things Trotter. Is it true that you were voted the second meanest man in Chicago?

Charlie: 20:09

Boy, you know, that was true.

Francis: 20:12

How do you feel about that?

Charlie: 20:13

Well, um. I don't know what to say, I guess. Uh, you know, I I, it's funny because the guy that came in, number one was Michael Jordan.

Francis: 20:23

Oh, well that's a pretty good company. And, uh,

Charlie: 20:24

I, I think what they were intending with that was, uh, just people that are willing to do whatever it takes to, to get to the next level. Mm-hmm. And, you know, succeed and, and, um. Uh, we had a lot of, uh, CEO clients come in here and say, damn, I, I didn't even make that list. I think it was sort of a tongue in cheek thing, but, uh, yeah. Well, if

Mark: 20:42

you wanna be really good, sometimes you're gonna step on some toes. I, and that's just the way it is.

Francis: 20:45

I'm reminded of a funny story where it was early in the restaurant, it was maybe our third year, and Mark and I were upstairs and we had sent someone down to do some horrible, horrible side work who's a fairly witty woman who worked for us for a couple years. And, uh, she hit the intercom button and she called up and she said. Evil overlords. Can I come out of the basement now? And I thought, Hmm, we could be, we're pretty, it takes a lot of mean to do this business.

Mark: 21:05

So I actually have a question for you though. Yep. Do you really have waiters put double-sided sticky tape on their shoes to pick up lint in your dining room discreetly?

Charlie: 21:13

Well, you know, to be honest with you, we've never actually done that. It's a good story though. It's the kind of thing that we would do. And um, it's that sort of thing where you just think about things and this would make sense. You can't, it's awkward to sort of bend down and pick off. Breadcrumbs are lint from the carpeting when the guests are there. You don't wanna bring one of those little sweeper things up in the dining room. And I thought, gosh, if you could, if we could develop something with, with double sided tape, we could literally step on these, uh, annoying little bits of things, uh, that, that sometimes pop up and solve the problem very simply. So

Mark: 21:45

I think people don't realize the, the banalities that we think about constantly in our restaurants, you're constantly thinking of, of. You know, these tiny little things. I, I mean, we had a 45 minute conversation in the restaurant the other day about what to do with the bread plate. If a customer says, no, thanks. And we had a brand new staff member who, it was his very first day and he just looked at us like we had like a deer in the headlights. Like we had two heads. And, and I don't know if that guy's gonna make it or not, because, because he doesn't get it. He doesn't get that. We're, do you find so focused on this, do

Francis: 22:18

you find, um, Charlie that I, I have, we have a number of friends who are in the business as well, and I find the people who work, especially, especially in the front of the house, their particular, um. Anal retentive nature is they, they tend to even walk into other people's homes and immediately adjust the temperature, the lights and the music.

Charlie: 22:32

I've heard things like that, but it's all,

Francis: 22:34

but it's, you know, it is those small things and, and you write about in your books a lot that it, it's, it, you know, you said earlier in, in the program today that it wasn't, that the food is the only important thing. It's that it's, it sort of has to be magic and, and, and our philosophy and, and, and it strikes me from your books that yours as well, is that. When people walk outta the door, they need to say, wow, that was great. And they don't even need to know why exactly they're saying that, you know, you need to know what, know how to elicit that response. But it's all just gotta sort of happen, you know? do you find that that's what you mean by training your staff to share your vision?

Charlie: 23:06

Well, that's pretty much it. And, and training the staff to, you know, everyone's empowered to do whatever they need to do to. To affect that kind of result. So if, if it's providing extra courses or a a, a kitchen tour or a, a gift bag of sauces or books or extra wine or anything under the sun, they can do anything they need to. And it's up to them to almost be, uh, they're almost playing a very complicated game of chess. They're trying to outthink the guests. Mm-hmm. They're trying to think of things to do for the guests before the guest even has a chance to, uh, to ask for something.

Mark: 23:35

Right. And doing whatever it takes. Just, you just gotta do whatever it takes to make your customers. Feel comfortable and happy.

Francis: 23:41

I remember reading an article, uh, at two different articles, uh, two different times after, um, bill, bill Grimes had left the New York Times as a reviewer, and then after Brian Miller had left the New York Times as a reviewer, two reviewers prior to him, and they both said interesting things in their sort of farewell articles. And they marked the difference between three stars, which is the second highest the New York Times gives out and Four Stars, which is the highest rating the New York Times gives out. And they said that three stars is excellent. It's everything you could ever want in a restaurant. But what makes a four star restaurant extraordinary is it exceeds expectations that it needs to delight and surprise you as the guest. And I thought that was, I think that's a really, that sounds like exactly what you two are talking about.

Mark: 24:21

Mm-hmm. Well, you always wanna make your guests say wow.

Francis: 24:23

Yep. I wanna, I wanna turn the, the topic, uh, for a moment and I want to ask you, uh, chef Tro, you've been, a lot of people have been writing a lot about, you've taken fo gra off your menu. You took fo gra off your menu a few years back. Three years ago, right? Um, but a lot of people are writing about that as pressure comes to bear in different states and states are actually considering laws to ban the production of fo gra. Right. What a lot has been written about you, but I I haven't heard you yourself, talk about what, what you, what you're feeling is on fo gra

Charlie: 24:47

Well,

Francis: 24:48

and it's placed in a restaurant menu.

Charlie: 24:50

Yeah. I, I, we, we took it off the menu, uh, just over three years ago, and we had a lot of customers say, gosh, you know, we love fog. You know, can you do it for me sometime? We said, no, it's not. Uh. It's not something that we're comfortable with, and I, I deliberately didn't wanna make an issue out of it. Mm-hmm. I'm not passing judgment. I'm not trying to make a moralistic, uh, point of view. I've seen the process. I, I'm uncomfortable with what I've witnessed. I don't think that there, there are too many other things out there that we can, we can eat and enjoy and, and not have, uh, an animal suffer for our gratification. Um. I, I, I know the farmers that produce the product, they're great people. I'm, I'm certainly not interested in harming their, their livelihood. Um, I completely respect my colleagues that choose to serve the product. Uh, I, customers that enjoy eating it, we just don't serve it here. And, and of story, little by little over the last couple of, uh, months I've been getting, uh, increasing phone calls, you know what's up with the fois? Mm-hmm. And I guess, you know, finally people have figured out that we, we don't have it. We haven't had it. We're not gonna have it. Um, and so now it's becoming an issue and I guess I'm sort of the, the defacto flag bearer for this particular, uh, uh, thing right now. So

Francis: 25:58

do you have a position on whether you think it should be illegal or not to produce or cook p gra

Charlie: 26:03

Uh, well, I'm gonna leave that up to, uh, uh, people that, uh, inspect the facilities and determine what, uh, you know, if, if they feel that the, uh, animals, the ducks, the geese that undergo the process are, are. Are in fact not suffering, then, you know, they can decide that. But in the meantime, we've taken our own stand and, you know, historically we've done things like this. We, we forbade smoking in our restaurant in 1989. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: 26:26

Wow.

Charlie: 26:26

Um, we, we permitted it only at the bar. And, uh, about two years after we were open, we just sort of said, you know, I don't even want it at the bar because it smoke can wa into the dining room still. And people are trying to enjoy wines and I, I, we, we didn't even want it. And I remember an alderman. Coming to me a couple years later in Chicago saying, gosh, we want to pass a, a, you know, no smoking ordinance here in Chicago. I'd like you to come down and testify. And I, I said, if I come down and testify, I'm gonna testify after the other side.

Speaker 5: 26:49

Right.

Charlie: 26:50

I don't think this should be a law. This is up to the individual operators of businesses, and it's up to the patrons to determine if they wanna. Go to places that, that permit smoking. Now it's just normal. Mm-hmm. That, that, you know, certain states or cities, it's, it's, uh, just outlawed outright. Right. And, um, we did it so far ahead of the curve that it's, it just seems natural to us. So,

Mark: 27:07

yeah. I mean, I, I, we are certainly fall on the same side of that, that people should be, should be able to make their own choices. I mean, we don't, we haven't searched swordfish in years. Uh, we don't serve Patagonian tooth fish, which is a Chilean sea bass, you know, just because we feel those fish are overfished. You know, every, every restaurant makes their own decisions as far as things like that go. And I think they should.

Charlie: 27:28

I agree. We don't serve those items either.

Francis: 27:30

Well, uh, let me turn the, let me turn the topic to another very exciting. One of the, one of the most interesting cookbooks I think written, in, well a long time, is your, your cookbook Raw, where you talk about raw ingredients that you did with Roxanne Klein. What prompted you to move to, to an entirely raw cookbook?

Charlie: 27:45

Well, as you probably know, we, we offer, uh. A couple types of Degas station menus here that that change daily. And, um, along with some spontaneous Degas station menus. And one of them is, is and has been a vegetable, ve not always vegetarian, but vegetable tasting menu. And that's been in place since 1988. And you're

Mark: 28:03

certainly one of the first people to do anything like that in, in a well,

Charlie: 28:05

we've always tried to elevate the possibility of the vegetable cooking and not necessarily have it fall into that category of, of vegetarianism. Um, but my dear friends, Michael and Roxanne Klein had been coming to the restaurant almost since the beginning. and they were. Always sarian. And then, uh, and then they became vegan and it was fun to cook for them. And it was about 5, 5, 6 years ago that they began to come from the Bay Area. as they would visit the restaurant, would challenge me to prepare raw food for them. And, uh, at first I had a very rudimentary understanding of, of what, uh, what that was about. And as I studied it more and learned more about it, it was really quite fascinating. And as Roxanne talked about opening a restaurant, I proposed that we write a book together, um, and just explore the ideas. I mean, we, I, I. I'm certainly not a raw foodist. I eat meat and fish every day. Um, but I like the possibilities and I like incorporating some of those elements onto the menu. Um, and sometimes we even mix the raw on the cook. I just think it's like anything a chef needs to. Have different things as part of his or her repertoire and not, not that one has to convert to that, but it's, it's just like the vegetarian thing. Most chefs today have one or several interesting vegetarian or vegetable offerings on their menu. It's not an outright vegetable tasting menu. I just think raw food preparation is, is in that. Realm as well.

Francis: 29:22

Did you visit Roxanne's out? I'm sure that you did, but I'm But did you visit Roxanne's when she was out in, in Larksburg?

Charlie: 29:27

Yeah, absolutely. And what did I was at the grand opening and I went there a couple, couple times subsequently. So

Francis: 29:32

I tell you, I dragged Mark out there. Uh, we went out on a wine buying trip and I made us take a detour up to Larksburg'cause I'd read about the restaurant and I'd seen pictures of the food and I thought I'm

Mark: 29:39

one of your least likely to go to a vegan raw food restaurant. Three, the World, which

Francis: 29:44

three 30 pound Italian American guy from New Jersey, whose family's originally from Brooklyn. And I, I, I, I didn't have the spirit of full disclosure in telling him the, the idea of the restaurant. So we check into the hotel and I sort of told him on the way to the restaurant where it was, and, and we pulled over into a burger joint to see how late they were open. Um, so that Mark and my other partner, Lou, who's also a just in

Mark: 30:03

case,

Francis: 30:04

who's a real meat eater, could stop and said, you know, after eating all these raw vegetables, we're gonna stop and get some real dinner. Well, we went and had, and we went back a couple of times mm-hmm. And had some of the most amazing meals.

Mark: 30:14

Uh, uh, it's in my top five best and most interesting meals in the country.

Francis: 30:18

But what was very interesting about that is, and I've been to a few raw food restaurants since, and none of them have really held up, was to see how they made those flavors speak and those ingredients speak. Mm-hmm. But one of the other things that was very interesting is they used nuts so much that I walked away very full.

Mark: 30:32

I mean, yeah. Yeah. Actually the, there I almost felt like I had too much nut butter and nut cream and, and the ice creams that, that were made from the nuts. It, it was such, it, it was actually a much richer. Weightier food than I anticipated it being.

Francis: 30:46

does the raw food that you serve in tr in Rous, is that influenced by Roxanne or was Roxanne's very influenced by you, do you think?

Charlie: 30:51

Uh, well, Roxanne showed us some techniques that were, that were very exciting, but we showed her how to combine certain things, um, that would be more effective in how to plate food in a certain way. And so I think, you know, we mutually influenced each other for the sake of the book, the dishes that we serve at the restaurant today. Our things of our own creation. Mm-hmm. So, um, what do you just,

Francis: 31:13

what do, what do you now, when you're, when you're not cooking food, what do you need to do as far as preparing food? What are the, are there abiding principles to, to bring raw food out? To show it as a, as a made dish that you would take the time and have for dinner and either live on that kind of food or go to a restaurant to seek out that kind of food? Well, are there, are there binding principles that abide throughout.

Charlie: 31:31

Well, there's a lot of prep that has to be done. You know, you, you're dehydrating things, you're soaking nuts and legumes and seeds. You are juicing things. Um, you, there are different techniques to make, uh, cheese out of nuts and, and things. And so when you get things prepped and organized, then you can assemble things very, very quickly. Mm-hmm. Um, I think when you first try some of the recipes in that book, it can be a little daunting, but it's like any cooking, uh, you know, when you, when you start to. To have things as part of your daily repertoire. Um, mis plus wise, it, it, it comes together pretty, pretty quickly.

Francis: 32:04

Well now, um, and so, well, one of the, I think that's pretty amazing and I recommend these books But there's not a lot yet written about what you're gonna open in New York. Very shortly. Will you tell us what's coming to New York and when you plan on opening it and how it's gonna be different?

Charlie: 32:15

Well, uh, we plan to open in October and, um, don't have a name yet. But it won't be Charlie Trotters necessarily. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, this is really all I've done for 18 years is this kind of very high end, uh, four star dining. And I don't know that we're gonna, we're doing something. I, I sometimes refer to it as Charlie Trotter's letting our hair down a little bit. It's a seafood restaurant. Um, and there'll be a raw bar, oyster bar component, uh, to it. But it's a place where you can, you can go a couple times a week. Um, the price point will be about a hundred dollars at dinner and about, uh,$45 at lunch. Um, and just pristine, clean seafood product. Uh, prepared someone in the style as, as we prepared here, but without the emphasis on a multi-course dining experience. Mm-hmm. Also, a very serious wine program will be in place, um, just like the restaurant here, and an emphasis on, on service, uh, as, as, as well. Michael Graves legendary, uh, architect designer from New Jersey, uh, is, is doing the design for us. And it's, it's exciting because he, he has done some restaurants, but he's not necessarily, a restaurant, designer, architect. He, he, he does buildings and all kinds of things. So it's, it's exciting to work with him on this project'cause he is a real vision visionary.

Francis: 33:26

How's it gonna be, do you think, for you running a, continuing to run your restaurant in Chicago and now having a place 1500 miles away and also having a place in Mexico?

Charlie: 33:34

Well, um, I'm certainly gonna spend a lot of time in New York, um, at the first year that we're open just to really stabilize it. Uh, it's a quick enough flight. It's only, you know, it's under two hours to go back and forth from Chicago to New York. Um, but keep in mind, in our in eight, in an 18 year history, we've, we have a lot of staff members and a lot of people that have been here a long time and will stay on to continue to run this place. Um, and we have a number of people that we're gonna be moving to the New York restaurant as well. So that's one of the reasons I think chefs do open other restaurants because you get to a point where if you don't take some of your key people and give them the next level of opportunity, um. You may lose to somebody else, you're

Mark: 34:09

gonna lose. And that's exactly what'll happen. You know, it's funny, we're, we're doing exactly the

Francis: 34:11

same thing right now. We're building our second restaurant at this juncture as well, and we're a little top heavy right now, but I know that I've gotta give these people opportunities to stay with me or they're gonna have to move on to somebody else, you know?

Mark: 34:19

Well, one thing I can be sure of, uh, Charlie, is that your restaurant in New York will be great no matter what you're doing there.

Francis: 34:24

And the other thing I can be sure is that Mark and I are gonna book a flight to Chicago sometime in the next month. So you might, Hey, we would love to see you guys here. I, I, you know, it's, it's a real hole in our whole frame of reference. Mm-hmm. Here we're the restaurant guys. We haven't been to this restaurant. We've read your books. and now we've interviewed you on the radio.

Mark: 34:38

Maybe I'll talk Francis to go into a Cubs game at the same time,

Francis: 34:40

I feel cowed that I haven't been there. Uh, chef Trotter, thank you so much for taking time outta your busy schedule to talk with us in here in Jersey on the restaurant. Guys. Well thank you. Uh, we look forward to your restaurant opening in New York very soon. Again, that was Charlie Trotter, owner of Charlie Trotters in Chicago, who will very soon open in as yet unnamed seafood restaurant in the Time Warner Center in New York that you all have to go to. And you can find out more about Chef Trotter and his existing and his upcoming restaurants and his books on our website You're listening to the Restaurant Guys. You're back with the restaurant guys. Francis Shot and Mark Pascal. And we just interviewed Charlie Trotter. Wow. We interviewed Charlie Trotter. Uh, probably the most famous, uh, well-respected chef in America. Not famous'cause he has 10 restaurants. Not famous'cause he has nine TV shows. He has one fabulous restaurant in Chicago, which is considered the best restaurant in America, which the Wine Spectator magazine called the Best Restaurant in the World. That's a pretty big compliment. World's a big round place, and he also, or if you were listening to the interview, he was also voted, uh, by an organization in Chicago, the second meanest man in Chicago

Mark: 35:51

behind Michael Jordan.

Francis: 35:52

I would like to be voted the meanest man in New Jersey. How about you, mark? Uh, I vote for you. Yeah. So many people, I'm sorry to say, we have a lot, we value our employees so much there and the people who've stayed with us for a long time. Uh, many of my friends are current employees and ex-employees who work for us for years. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, gave us so many, so much great work. And then we've stayed friends for 10 years after they've left. But, um, we've also sent a number of people just. Who, on day four when someone just. Bursts into tears and runs in the room, never to be seen again. They don't even pick up the last paycheck.

Mark: 36:26

People just, you know, I really do in the interview process, try and let people know how hard it is, what the expectations are. Oh, and you're always trying to hire somebody with the right attitude. That's so much more important than experience. It's hiring somebody who gets it, but every once in a while and not more than every once in a while because only one in four people move to the next position. Someone who gets it and someone who has thick skin.'cause they work for us. Yeah. It's, it's hard. We're, we're, we're constantly on you, but every once in a while, someone. We'll just realize that they've made a horrible, horrible decision and try and escape. Okay. I, I, I'm reminded in the middle of service. In the middle of service. I'm reminded of the guy we found in the basement trying to go through the trap doors so he wouldn't have to walk past us on his way out the door, in the middle of the shift.

Francis: 37:08

And the other person said, uh, those doors are locked. They're chain shut. You're gonna have to go out the front door. And then we, we hadn't seen that. Another employee sort of amusingly told us this story and we said, where'd Ralph go? Where is he? Where's he going to? And, um. And we saw him leave because he didn't wanna go out the front door. So he tried to sneak out the back and the mayor of New Brunswick was sitting at a table in his way. And because there was, that was an entrance that wasn't really used. And he actually said to me, he made the mayor stand up as he was trying to sneak out so he could escape, excuse me, could you stand up? Please? Like snuck out behind him. My favorite response though is, is that as this happened to Mark, and I just stood there and watched, was a, a young lady worked for us for a short period of time and we're talking and she just got quiet and quiet and her eyes sank back in her head and. And it was like she wasn't listening anymore, and then she literally just burst into tears, turned around, walked outta the room, never to be seen again. So I vote for you for the meanest, man. No,

Mark: 37:59

you are so much meaner than I am. Stop. Well, we've had everybody knows, anybody who listens to us knows how much meaner you are than I'm.

Francis: 38:04

We've had a great hour talking with Chef Charlie Trotter, the best chef in America. You're listening to the best radio show on Food and wine in America. This is the Restaurant guys. I am Francis Shot. And I'm Mark Pascal. And we are the restaurant guys,