Martini Expo III 2025

Inside Track

The Restaurant Guys were invited to be the official podcasters of The Martini Expo. They spent the day sipping and chatting with the greatest makers, stirrers and shakers on the planet!

Guests

Joe Magliocco is the president of Michter’s Distillery, where he has been instrumental in reviving the historic American whiskey brand. He’s been inducted into The Kentucky Bourbon Hall of Fame as well as The Whisky Magazine Hall of Fame. His company is involved in creating eco-sustainable Farmer’s gin.

Dale DeGroff known as “King Cocktail,” is a legendary bartender, author, and educator credited with reviving the craft of the classic cocktail. Dale is a James Beard Award winner and founding president of the Museum of the American Cocktail.

David Wondrich is a cocktail historian, author, and James Beard Award winner recognized as one of the world’s foremost authorities on drinks and drinking culture. A founding editor of Imbibe! magazine and author of Imbibe! and Punch, Wondrich has been a leading voice in uncovering the history behind classic cocktails and spirits. His latest book is The Comic Book History of the Cocktail. 

Robert Simonson is an award-winning journalist and author who writes about cocktails, spirits, and bars with both precision and wit. A longtime contributor to The New York Times and Punch, he has authored several acclaimed books, including A Proper Drink and The Martini Cocktail. He co-founded The Mix with Robert Simonson on Substack. He is celebrated for capturing the stories, people, and culture behind the modern cocktail revival.

Mary Kate Murray is a drinks writer, event producer, and co-creator of The Mix Substack alongside Robert Simonson. She’s also the co-founder of the Martini Expo in New York City. Her career spans communications and media. Through her work she shares a deep love for the communal spirit of drinking.

Lisa Laird Dunn is the ninth-generation family member behind Laird & Company, America’s oldest licensed distillery and the historic producer of Laird’s Applejack. She has dedicated her career to preserving her family’s 300-year legacy while championing apple brandy’s place in modern cocktails. 

Info

Martini Expo 2025

https://martiniexpo.com/

The Mix with Robert Simonson

https://robertsimonson.substack.com/

Mark’s favorite whiskey

Michter’s 10 year rye whiskey

We will have a Halloween pop-up bar in Stage Left Steak Oct 27-Nov 1.

https://www.stageleft.com/event/1029-1101-spooky-bar-stage-left-steak/

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Transcript

the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_164252: 0:29

Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left in Ka Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We are here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the. Finer things in life. This is the grand finale of the shows that we recorded at the Martini Expo in Brooklyn. It was tremendous. It was a grand day. It was a long day, but it was a grand day. We have Joe Mallo, then there's mayhem when Dale DeGraff attacks Joe Malco and then David wdr muscles into the room. And then in the end, Mary Kate Murray and Robert Simonson weaned their way in, and somehow Lisa Laird got in the tussle. I don't know exactly how that happened. Great show. Really. A fitting end to the Martini expo. We have Joe Mall, Yoko, so I snuck just a little bit of rye and bourbon talking. He's he whiskey man. He's, he's from mixers and also does farmer's gin. He's really interesting and maybe the nicest guy in the business. The good news, bad news though, if you are a restaurant guy subscriber, you'll be able to hear this whole entire wonderful episode, in its entirety. If, however, you are a free listener, much as we love you, this is gonna fade out in a couple of minutes and you'll miss the dramatic conclusion of the Martini Expo at Industry City in Brooklyn, where we taste one of the coolest things we've ever tasted. So this is as good a time as ever to subscribe, uh, and if you have already subscribed, thank you very much. You can always find out how to do this more At restaurant guys podcast.com. Enjoy the show.

salvatore_2_09-13-2025_181737: 1:50

All right, so we're at the Martini Expo. We've just, reeled in Joe Magliocco. Uh, now a lot of people know Joe because he is a, a graduate of Yale. He got his Harvard law degree. I know Joe because he brought Micers back to the world Whiskey man. Super, super important guy in my world as that's, that's really one of my absolute favorite bourbons and rise in the world. Uh, and now you're, you're doing this new farmer's gin and, and how cool is that? You're, you're still branching out and doing some cool stuff? Yeah, we're trying to do some good stuff. And first of all, thank you so much for having me on the restaurant, guys. Ah, we're so happy you're here. I really appreciate so much being here and, and just. To have the opportunity to be at the Martini Expo. Oh my God. It's with Robert Simonson, I should have expected that it would be absolutely wonderful. And Mary Kate Murray. It's really a cool event, by the way. Oh my God. So those of you who aren't here today, sorry. It's really cool. See you next year. Yeah. it's such a good event. It's so well done. I mean, I can't believe it's, it's so perfect for the first time it's ever been unbelievable. And then to see, like, you know, to have like your drinks made by like Dave W Salvador Calabrese like, oh my God. That's huge thing. I just, it's really cool. I just, took a, took a video of the bar, which we're gonna put up on social media. Yes. And behind the bar there were three bartenders, They were David Wdr, Salvatore Calabrese, and Takuma Avi. Yeah. I mean, it's like superstores. Well, you know what's funny about this event? You know, whatever it costs to get in. Have you any idea what it would, a cocktail would cost and a bar martini would cost. Right. Staff staffed by those three people, they're like, oh, I like a martini that is$975. Please. No, it, it's incredible. And it's interesting too because I've met several people here today. They're not industry people, they're just people who like cocktails. Oh yeah. Like martinis, like gin. I've met people from different parts of the world. Yeah. I thought people are traveling from amazing, far away to be at this. And they love it. They absolutely love it. it's chill. It is a sophisticated, chill event with like people that would have a line around the block. extraordinary. I just wanna say when I saw you here and, uh, we've only met briefly, yes. But I, I know you as the whiskey guy, kind of the mixers guy. Yes. Yeah. And I thought to myself, what's the whiskey dye, the Martini festival? I didn't know about Farmers General. Yeah. We gotta spend three minutes talking about mixers because it's so important. You're so kind. Um. you resurrected a, a really iconic brand that had gone bankrupt. Yeah. 89 went bankrupt. Right. You moved them to Kentucky. it's funny. Whiskey was so out of favor when we restarted, we acquired the mixers, uh, trademark for$245. Wow. So, I mean, yeah. But we, but we had no whiskey, no, no recipe. If you'd to sell that for. If you'd like to sell that for a tiny profit of a three 50, I would go three 50. Well, so Mixers was a, a very famous American whiskey brand. Sure. And like many whiskeys at the time, they don't really exist so much anymore. But Western Pennsylvania was a place that made whiskey. There were Pennsylvania whiskey. Absolutely. Uh, and then. they went bankrupt and you resurrected the brand, but you also, a lot of people resurrect a brand and they just, they don't really put a lot of thought into the whiskey. They put more thought into the marketing, but you took that brand and put it on top of really resurrecting quality whiskey, but important whiskey brand. You're, you're, you're very, very, you're very, very kind. You know, we, we concentrated on American rye when it wasn't popular at all. Yeah. Yep. And, we had tremendous help from the on-premise community, from bartenders like us to really help. Yes. Bring it back and, well, because seriously, I think that, I think there are a, and this is no, there are a lot of retailers who really do taste and really knowledgeable retailers now, which is different than it was when we started 30 years ago. But I think it was the on-premise guys who you could walk in and say, here, taste this. And even if you don't know what it is, you're like, oh, that's. Great, I'll take it. And, and they really became evangelists, like introducing people to like, you know, that Rye made great cocktails and you know what if you used a really good bourbon, you know, you can make a really good bourbon cocktail too. Yeah. Yep. And I think, I've been fortunate to work with really good production people. I try to sell the stuff. I don't make it myself. we're American whiskey. Is in a different position now than it was really 25 years ago. Yes. 30 years ago when I was getting started.'cause the whole industry's done a good job on quality. I we were very fortunate for, for the third time, you know, uh, drinks International outta London, their poll of a hundred whiskey experts around the world. We were named, for the third time the world's most admired whiskey. before us, an American whiskey was never. That's fantastic. It's some of the world's most admired and, um, and I think, but it's not, it's not just about us, it's about the category. Yeah. And I think this growing recognition that American whiskey can be really, really good. So Joe, you don't, you don't know this, but today, when I, when we were gonna be here, and I saw your name on the list, I saw you out. I know you're very kind and I went, I went to find you, but you don't know the reason I went to find you. So Francis and I do Instagram videos and we do all sorts of, different types of things. And often we'll be drinking whiskey in those videos. what many people don't know, and if you really follow me closely, I, I mentioned it enough times that, that, you know, this is true. if you are looking at me drinking whiskey in a video, nine times out of 10 it's Michter's 10 year rye. Wow. Because that is the rye that I cannot get enough of. Well, you're so kind. If you haven't had Michter's 10 year bourbon is spectacular, but specifically the rye is, is one of those gr and it's not cheap. It's a, it's an expensive rye at this point. Yeah, but it pun it punches above its weight. It's very, very extraordinary for so many reasons. It's spicy, it's got great viscosity. It's just a beautiful whiskey. So, so. Yeah, we're gonna talk about farmer's gin in a minute. Yeah, but I, I had to talk about that. Michter's 10-year-old rye. I love minter's American whiskey, and I love Minter's bourbon. I love minter's regular rye. But Michter's 10-year-old rye is a category alone. Yeah. you're, you're really kind. It. And it's interesting too, because there's so many great American r. But our rye is very much what we call Kentucky style rye. Mm-hmm. It is not like a 95% rye mashville. Right. It's a lot less rye than that. It's still a, obviously majority rye grain. Mm-hmm. But so you get good rye spice, but there's enough corn in there, there's enough malted barley in there. You get some other really nice flavor components going on and complimenting the nice spice and making it rich. And then too, you know, the fact is, at mixers, you know, we're privately held. Our goal, whether we're doing we'll, say whether we're doing it or not. The goal is to try to make the greatest American whiskey as we're trying to do and, Because we're privately held, we get to do things like, we release something not on based on a strict a statement, release it when it's ready. Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, uh, uh, the latest 10 year bourbon that released, you know, we releasing 10 year bourbon, that's actually 14 and a half years old to put all this stuff in the bottle. Mm-hmm. So we let our master distiller, our master maturation, Andrea Wilson, decide when stuff is ready. So there's a lot that goes into it, but I'm just so glad you like it. That's the main thing is you like it. It's, well, I'm, I've just done my self a disservice.'cause now there's a whole bunch of people who are, who are gonna be looking forward. They're trying to get that right. Yeah. They're less likely for me to get. No, appreciate it. But, uh, it really, I, I needed to tell you that and I wanted to tell you that in, in front of America. I wanted everybody to know that when you see me with that glass out there, nine times outta 10, that's, what I'm drinking is really appreciate It is that 10 year, 10 year rye. Very much appreciate it. We gotta talk about gin, right? We're at the martini expo. It's time to talk about gin. Yeah. Yeah. So, so gin. Um, my go-to when I'm not drinking whiskey is gin. I personally love gin. Mm-hmm. And there's so many wonderful gins. I like gin with a, with a good amount of juniper. And, uh, farmers, you know, I work between Chatham Import, which is the parent company of mixers. we do organic vodka Minnesota. the gin is, is distilled in Idaho. All of the grain comes from one. Organic farm in Idaho. Mm-hmm. Um, my friend Tim, corny is the farmer. I mean, it's all Tim. Corny is grain. Tim is very specific. He's sort of the father of organic and regenerative farming in Idaho. What sort of grain? Uh, it, it's actually wheat. Okay. Um, and Tim is like very particular and I got to know Tim well because we have a 2 5, 2 5 acre farm in Refield, Kentucky where we grow some of our own grain from mixers. And Tim was consulting on that and we became good friends. And he's just, he's just a brilliant farmer and farming's hard. Yeah. I, I never realized if farming's not, so farming is, is the hardest job there is. Yeah. It really is. I, I don't, I don't know of a harder job than farming. I mean, you're so dependent on nature. Mm-hmm. And just so many different things can go wrong. it's like making whiskey, you know? You need really good ingredients. Yeah. And, the better the ingredients, the better chance you have to come out with something really good. And, you know, and, we have a team, um, our, our M'S team actually works. on the farmer's gin. Um, they go to Idaho. they do the botanical infusion in Idaho. Um, they're very particular about the juniper that we pick. And it also has an interesting flavor profile.'cause we tried it, we tried it with lemongrass. It was nice, tried it with elder flower. It was nice. When you put that a certain amount of elder flour and lemongrass in with the type of juniper we use, you get a really nice medley of flavors that's really wonderful and sort of accentuates each other. Rick Robinson is our Chief Product Officer, uh, uh, you know, does a lot of work on the farmers, Jen, and I think he's done a really, really good job. it's regenerative, organic, and, um, you know, we enjoy it. We think it makes a nice martini. So let's talk about martinis'cause we're here at the Martini Expo people who come from all over the world to be here? Sure. Do you see a kind of a renaissance of interest in the martini? Absolutely. And why is this here, why is this happening now? You know, that's such a, that's such a great question. And I'm, I'm not really sure, but you know. First of all, it's a wonderful drink. It's a classic drink, but it's also, and, and it's a word that I've heard used at these seminars here, and the seminars have been terrific that, that Robert's put together. Um, it's experiential. Mm. it's not just about how it tastes, it's about how it's made and how it's served to you and how it's presented. Yeah. I love that. I love that you've ice and the cold glass. It's a ritual. You're James Bond. Exactly. You're drinking a martini. You're James Bond. Exactly. That's a great, that's a great, no, seriously. Yeah. but we see. All different types of people everywhere, you know, we export a, a farmer's gin is actually a really good export market for us. and at Chatham, which is a sales agent for mixers and apparent oficers, we export to 83 countries. Wow. And we see, we see martinis growing, not just in the US but worldwide. Substantially. Well, so let me ask you a question. I want to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions, please. One. We've been doing seminars all day. You make gin mar you, you're aware of the cultural place of martini. We, we have a visitor joining us. Mr. DeGraff. How are you? That noise, that degra busting now. Now we got it. We are just talking about you. So, what makes a martini a martini? Look, I, I think that there's been a lot of poetic license. Look, espresso martinis are hugely popular and, but as somebody who likes a really good, you know, dry gin martini, personally, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's not my, you know, it's not my personal preferred drink. Okay. So is an, if it's an upas, is an espresso martini? A martini is a chocolate martini, a martini? Do they call? They call it, they call it a martini. I know. My question is, is that legit? They. I, I think that there's a lot of creative bar people making really good stuff Uhhuh, and, I encourage the creativity. Let your martini flag fly. I think, I think, I think got, I think, I think people should drink what they enjoy. Amen. Joe, I agree with you. And as a guy who has an espresso martini and a chocolate martini. On my list. They're not martinis. Yeah. Alright. There's only martini in the name Dale DeGraff just entered the room. Let's, let's go with martinis. With martini. In name only Dale DeGroff What makes a martini? A martini? Well, please give me at least vodka and Jen at least some kind of fortified wine product. Something you, you know, sharing, whatever you know, so you're sort of, kind of in it. But those martini menus of the nineties with. Spiced from and pineapple juice. You know, I mean, not a martini. Yeah. All right. There are standards, we just dunno what they are. That's the debate. And the best way to figure that out is for us all to drink more martinis. All right, Joe, I have one, uh, question I need to ask. Sure. What is the martini moment in your life that changed the experience for you forever? well. way, way long ago, I was at the Four Seasons in New York and they had Four Seasons bar. Mm-hmm. A hotel bar in New York and they had, the setting was just gorgeous and everything was just spectacular. And, you know, I was there with a friend and we're like, a lot younger than I was now. Uh, sort of youngish guys. and we we're after work and we're we're dressed nice and we're wearing suits and ties, and people wore ties in those days. and they come over and, and they shake it at the table. They have the sort of like little dividends. Oh yeah. The excess aff. The little sidecar. Sure. And it was ice cold. And I'm like. Wow, we're cool adults. You feel like Jamie, it's a crossover into adult. Seriously. Adults. You know, nobody's mentioned that so far. It's having your first great martini is a crossover into adulthood. that's a great answer. Well, that is a, that's a, that's a great answer. Thanks. That was wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate it. Dude, this is terrific. Thanks Joe. This is fantastic. Thank you for joining us. Like I said, I saw your name on the list today. I was like, he's, we gotta have a million Come, come see us in Kentucky sometime, I promise. Love it. Thank you much. Thanks a bunch. Thanks a million, Joe. Thanks so much Joe.

salvatore_2_09-13-2025_183737: 15:41

So here we are at the Martini Expo and we've been been inviting people in to join us to, to talk a little bit about martinis, and then somebody stormed the castle. You, you may have heard with our last, uh, guest, Dale just opened the fucking door. I mean, you know, like, and you know what happens, what everybody has said at the various seminars. And I, I swear to you, I went to a bunch of seminars in the beginning and like at the Japanese seminar at all the different seminars and they're like. All the rules change when Dale Degraf walks in the room. Up there we're, and, and people are calling the martini, the king cocktail, and Dale is king cocktail. It's the double king cocktail. So welcome Dale. Start. I'm delighted to be here. I, I come bearing gifts, by the way, I have a 1901 45% alcohol, old Tom gin. Are you kidding? And I don't mean 1901. I mean, it's the year it was. This is a 24-year-old gin you brought for me to taste for you. You notice how he said me. He meant us. I promise you he meant us. Holy crap. He's got a great news, doesn't it? That's so cool. Get you'll get you. I'm drinking out of a little. You don't need any anymore than that to feel, I care the power of this spirit. It's just marvelous. I can't tell you who gave it to me because they'll have to kill me right afterwards. Yeah. 120 5-year-old chin. Wow. Botanicals in there are amazing. Oh my goodness. And. I did. I said, oh my god, lavender and oh my goodness, berry. Good one. Oh my god. Gooseberry. Wow. The violet. Um, and the, and it old Tom means it's got a little bit of sugar in it, but the sugar. Wow. You know what happens to this? I'm, I'm totally gonna geek out, but our mutual friend, Johannes Selbach, explained to me once, why old sweet German wines? And they get older, they don't taste as sweet, the sugar. Stays there, but for reasons they don't know, you perceive the sugar as more starky sugar. It suddenly got a great pastry in my mouth. Yeah, yeah. So a little maran. Absolutely. Oh my God. And the finish is forever. So you so hang out with Dale Degra martini. Guy's, one little sip left. I left, we left Dale. The last little, uh, there. I would, can I tell you what my dream would be for you to make me a$1,000 cocktail outta this? Salvato actually made a cocktail from this exact, did he really gin with? Northly Pret 1900 Orange Bitters from the 1890s at in Las Vegas, and I was there and I got the first sip. Wow. Wow. Well, Salvatore right, the king of the vintage cocktail. Right. we Actually, somebody brought us martinis here. Yeah. What? These are Ford's? Gin Martinez. Yeah, because for gin's. Cool. And this is the Martini Expo, so Cheers. Cheers. You didn't clink me clink. No, he you did three times. I I hit you. No, you the first time. Alright, so the thing about we're using plastic glasses, that's why I'm saying clink. Yeah. Well, we'll say we have to say clink, right? No, I, I do like what they're doing here with that, that the martini expo, tiny little martinis. Yep. Absolutely. Perfect. Little, little ounce and a half at a time. And I'll share with you something that's super interesting. So they're in plastic martini glasses and nice one ones there go Salva. Plastic martini glasses were waving and they're nice ones. Um, but what's interesting, I'm finding the martinis are quite cold, but if you think about it. Plastic is an excellent insulator. Mm-hmm. So while it doesn't feel like the elegance of glass, which is a conductor, your, your martini probably stays colder in a plastic glass. can I say something about that? Yeah, yeah. I hate plastic. Yeah. I'm, I'd rather have glass, but you know, I'm looking at the upside. I'm sunny side of the street, Dale, sunny, the side of the street. You know, I'm looking, I'm drinking outta these glasses and I would always rather drink outta glass. But I will say. This is the best plastic glass that I've ever, it's they all I have ever drank out of it. Yeah, they're, it's, it's sheer, you know, we talked about sheer rim before. It's thin. It's, it's elegant. It's very clever, you know, as elegant as plastic like rele. It has, it has the maker right there in the, yeah. The maker is, we can read this and we don't have to put it in the show notes because it, it says Reid little plastic. No joking. Here's the funny thing. You ready guys? So on the base of the glass, they have stamped in the name, but it's stamped on the bottom, so you need to turn it upside down to read the name, which I can't do for at least 10 minutes, by the way. Which I, if I had three martinis, I'd prob more martinis, I'd probably do import in my lap. It look, we'll put it in the show notes. I can't, I can't read what it is right now. But Francis not so good at the upside down reading. Yeah, I'm getting, I'm getting a little seasick here trying to do that with my martinis. You're right. I think this is gonna permanently go on the calendar. Oh yeah. Oh my goodness. This event. Event, it's an amazing, successful event. This event, you know, honestly, and Francis alluded to this before, he didn't quite say it. It reminds me of those early years of tales of the cocktail. Yes. It's lovely. It's really elegant that all the cool kids are here. Seriously. But, but its small enough that you can talk to everybody, right? Yeah. It's not overrun with people. Yeah. It, it just feels great. And, and I'm gonna be honest with you, we had the afternoon here, uh, was a little more crowded. And, and it was a separate ticket to come for the evening. And the evening is unbelievable. And right now there are 75, a hundred people around the bar, and the greatest bartenders in the world are behind the bar serving 75 people. Jeff Bell from PDT, Jeff Bell's back there. Now we'll probably have Jeff Bell pop in for a, a quick conversation as well. Wonders was back there a minute ago. Wonder was back there. Julie was back there. You were back there. There. It's. Like this is a, a, a dream. If you're a cocktail person, you're in a dream right now. A dream escape. that's my dream. I wanna put,

Mark: 21:15

Dale just showed me a picture with two young chippies that he did in the photo, photo booth, obviously. this is how it happened. They ran over and said, come with me. Come with us. Come with us. My mom. And I said, okay, okay. I gotta send this to my mom. My mom told me that could've been their grandma Dale could have been their grandma. That's be honest. That's rough. So one of the things I've, I've tried to express to people in the dining room is, you know, it never, it never bothered me. You know, people would, would come in and their kids would come in and their kids grew up a little bit and they, and they started to become regulars. And I was like, you know, that's really cool. And now we've gotten to the next level where they're bringing their grandchildren in and I'm uncomfortable. I just wanna, I wanna touch on something that is really rare about this and I hope that he's, we're able to hold this for another couple of years because I do think this is gonna become so popular that it is gonna be, yes, it's gonna get mobbed. It's gonna be a thing. Yes. They'll move to the next building and then the next building. Yes. Yes, exactly. But for now, I wanna point out something else that's going on here. It is a wide age demographic that's here. There are 22 year olds, 25 year olds maybe. Yep. And there are old guys like us. Um, but. This is, there's no selfie station. There's a photo booth, but there, but it's not about Instagram here. This is the one of the most authentic experiences I've had in years if you look at it in that dining room. I agree. People aren't snapping pictures on their phone. They're talking to each other and having cocktails. Yeah. And really respecting what's going on. It's like, oh, Salvato. Calabrese, and, Dale Degra are gonna make me a drink. I wanna pay attention to the here and now in this moment, and maybe meet this new person who's next to me. This is a crazy old school. Yeah. Thing that's going on. By the way, here's what I just watched happen and I can see it through the doors. It's behind your head. Uh, sadly, I'm looking at you. Okay. So I can't see crap. Kuma just walked up to Salvatore, who's having a martini kind of quiet moment by himself. Kuma just walked up to him and they had a little three minute conversation, shook hands and is like a novel went mery. 1930, you know, 87 Kuma would do a residency at the Donahue, of course in London with Salvatore, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Sal Salvato came up to me, uh, when we first met this trip, uh,'cause I brought Salvato to the Rainbow Room in 1998. He mentioned the occasion of his first book, the Classic Cocktail. I didn't, the PR lady who was with me last night at the dinner. Robin Massey brought him over and we were together behind the bar, uh, and he said, de, we invented the residency of the bartender. We invented it. He said he had the first pop up he was upset about. He said him at the, at the Rainbow Room was the first popup bar in modern history. I'm gonna ask you a question that Mark has been asking every guest, but, you know, we are at the, at the Martini Expo and the martini is such a foundational drink, and you, you and Mark and I have actually given presentations at our bar and at other bars, and we have given presentations on the history of the martini. you've sung about the history of the martini, and we've done that many times. But Mark, mark has asked, and I think this is particularly poignant to you. Do you have a moment where there was a martini revelation or an important martini moment to you that you said, oh, look at the, oh, like I get this, or, look what happened here. It's kind of a backward thing what happened to me. Um, kind of a backward thing. I was. Like every kid had a rock and roll band when I, when I was a teenager, and there was this guy who was the leader of the band who was a really good singer, and I looked, I was hero worshiping this guy, right? And he always brought a flask of warm gin to the gig, warm gin. So I wanted to be like him. So I'm going and I'm turning green and getting sick, and, and I vowed I would never drink this stuff ever again. Flash forward to coming to New York. Starting to get into the bar world, starting to waiter, I did dishwasher for a while and all that stuff moving, but realizing that the bar is the place to be. This is where people live, and the bars of New York are the great bars of the world. And then I thought to myself, oh my God, I need to revisit gin. I need to understand what's the deal here, because I'm at these great bars with my best friend's, older brother, who is an advertising guy, and everybody's ordering these gin martinis. Dirty martinis, smoky martinis. And I'm going, what's going on here? If I'm gonna be in this world, I have to learn how to drink gin again. And I taught myself I icicle. Extra dry. The lemon saved me in the beginning because it gave me a touchstone. Right. You know? But slowly but surely, I warmed up to this extra dry beef eater martini with an olive and a twist, and that became my thing. Mm-hmm. So it was kind of a backward door back in to gin. That really brought me to the market. Well, so many of us literally poisoned ourself with gin in college, right? Yes. Literally just, you know, and I remember the first four or five years after college being like, no, mark doesn't drink gin. Because I, because I had such bad. Relationship with it because of the way I treated it. Mm-hmm. And it treated you, it treated me appropriately back. And so I, so I had this bad experience with gin and I had to reacquaint myself, just like you with, with gin. that story really resonates with me because I had to do exactly the same thing. Well, you've told me so many great stories about the three martini lunch, and one of the things we have is they have little martinis for our little three martini lunch here, which is really cute. But you talk about when you first came to New York in the Real Mad Men days of the Real Mad Men era, when people used to actually drink like that. And I think a lot of people look at Mad Men and think, how the hell did those guys get there in the morning, work in the morning, go out to lunch, drink like fish, then go back to the office and work? How true was that portrayal? Absolutely true. I worked for an agent called Lois Holland and Callaway George Lois never touched the drop, but Ron Holland and Jim Calloway handled the clients. George was the artist. So George went and played basketball while they were entertaining the clients. At multiple bars, but they also took a table in the bar room of the Four Seasons restaurant, not hotel, every single day from noon till three. Now you think, when did these guys work? They got into the office at 6:00 AM Oh yeah. They left lost office at 8:00 at night. Well, that's the thing. They ran. They went back to work. Back to work after martini lunches. And were productive. Yes, absolutely productive. I've never seen it before. Before. But they didn't go and not drink at those lunches. They would drink for three hours. Hours. Yeah. And they would go back to work. How did that work? They drank how the clients wanted to drink. That's how they drank. And they also schooled me and drinking Ron Hall. Cooled me. What do you drink when, why? How do you teach the bartender? How should the bartender treat you? This is all stuff I learned from you. Advertising guys. I, I mean it. Mm-hmm. They really understood this is their business. How do they get these big, you know? Clients like their big one was Brianna Airlines. They entertain them in the best restaurants in the city with the best clients and with, with the best spirits and the best food, and they know how to do it. So they, they're masters at this absolute masters of hospitality. And I, I was on the fringes watching all this go down. I'm just amazed at the physical stamina of lunch martinis and a lot of gin, a boozy lunch, and then going back to work for six hours. Amazing. To me, I was in awe and I could never tell. They even had a drop to drink. They're back to work. Like boom, boom, boom. And then George is like, he, he hadn't had anything drink, and he's back there and they're right there with him. You know? Boom, boom, boom. Everything's getting done. Client's coming in. As a matter of fact, George was. Probably as far as getting clients, George Lois was a genius, don't get me wrong, but he was also from the Bronx and he talked like this. He's fucking got fucked that, fucked that, you know, and, and Ron used to say, if we could just keep George's mouth shut, we might have a chance of getting the client. Please know that. I feel exactly the same way about Francis. Hey. Hey, now. All right. Listen, Dale. Um, I love drinking martinis with you personally, as we have done for many years over time. But big shout out and kudos to Robert Simonson. Oh my goodness. Putting this thing together. Wow. Oh my goodness. Holy Kim, there's no, I've never seen anything. There's never been anything like this. Would you agree? I would, there has never been a martini expert here in this town except for the one that happened between, nevermind, I didn't, I never got around to tell you exactly what my three martini lunch was. When I can afford it, tell me when I could finally afford it. It would be sitting at the bar at PJ Clark's, a bar I went to from when I was too young to drink. I continue to go to. You arrive at the bar, you order a martini chin, of course dry, extra dry with an olive, a twist. Then you order six oysters or a dozen if you're with a friend. Then you order another, uh, another martini storming the castle. Welcome, Mr. W. You're just in time for my three martini lunch at PJ Clark's. It starts with a martini, okay, and it's followed by six oysters, followed by another martini. Followed by steak. Guitar followed by another martini. It's just perfect symmetry. And how often, Dale, that's gonna be our Tuesday. Right? By the way. See, you were fine. Except then you gotta follow it with an actual steak. Yes. Right. So you gotta Steak came in the evening, my friend in the evening. Yeah. Yeah. That's not, steak is no lunch. You never have lunch. You know, you never went to, you never went to Brooklyn to one of those places because they always said. Hey, don't order those steaks. Lunch. Just the ovens are not hot enough yet. The ovens are not hot enough when they're glowing. You know, was Peter, Peter Luger? Was, was uh, kind of rules, but, uh, anyway, I'm Dave, We still, we started every segment with, well, we just pulled Soandso out of the party, but then Dale barged in, and then you barged in on Dale. And we love it on Dale because it's perfect. He deserves it. So, David, you've been on our show before and everyone who doesn't know that you're not the historian, the scholar, the professor of cocktails, has been living under a rock. Um, you gave the seminar this afternoon on the history of the Martini. Well, man and Martin Doff, who you and Martin. He a who, who knows more about like old cocktails. Uh, he's amazing than anybody I know. Yeah. He, he is, he's, he's, he's ex extremely, uh, focused and knowledgeable and, and a sweetheart also. And he does cocktail apps and he is a great guy. And he's been bunch, yeah. He's also the curator, which is important of, of the cocktail Kingdom cocktail library, which is a better book collection than I'll ever put together. Amazing. It's, it's the best. It's the best I in the world, right? As far as I know it is. Yes. You, but you were chosen because you are a scholar and as was he, um, to give the seminal history of the cocktail. Can you give us the history of the martini because I, I was in your lecture and we started with, so the martini. Was originally it was okay to pour whiskey in it, and there was a rapid period of development where we codified. Yeah, yeah. What martini is, and here's the question we've been asking everybody, and just to inform your answer to the history and to bring us to the present, and you're gonna be the definitive answer. No, not, yes you are. There is no definitive answer, Francis, but here's the, you know that, but here's the thing. We all know that, or we would, I think we would all agree. A martini, if you substitute the sake for vermouth, is still a martini. A chocolate martini is not a martini a if you add in juice and all, it's a cocktail, but it's not a martini. And we can call it an espresso martini, a car, and a, it's not, it's not what you expect if you, if you think about martini, that's for sure. What makes a real martini? A martini? And how did that come to be? You, the historian. Okay. A real martini. I think it would probably help people to understand what a real martini is if you, uh. I understand that the, the martini came about because there were two cocktails floating around in the 1870s. There was the vermouth cocktail, which was basically just vermouth stirred with ice and, and, and strained into a glass. Uh, they vermouth, they didn't know what to do with, it was a new ingredient. Italy was newly reunified and they were suddenly exporting, uh, a lot of this stuff. Well, and, and also soon to be nonunified. And then reunified. Yeah. And then nonunified. Well, yeah. But this, this was sort of at the end of it. This is at the end of the process, fortunately. Okay. Because we're talking about like the 1870s. All right. You know, so, yeah. But yeah, it, it went back and forth for a while. But anyway, Vermouth starts coming in and people are saying, Hey, uh, it had been in America for a while, but nobody knew what to do with it. It was only there, in ethnic communities. Mm-hmm. By which I mean French. Right. And, uh, may, there are hardly any Italians in America. So it was mostly French people. There were a lot of French people in in America early on. America and France and France were friends. There were a lot of Americans in France and a lot of French and America. Mm-hmm. So, anyway, so early on, that was something that they imported for this community. But, uh, we're talking 1830s, 1840s, 1850s. Then, you know, the Italians get into the game and, the Italians start shipping lots of vermouth over, Yeah, so there's, there's the company Martini and Sola, incorporated right after the unification of Italy. And, uh, we have another, uh, storming of the castle. Mary Kay and Robert are joining, uh, the restaurant guys come on in.'cause we gotta talk about the martini expo. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, okay, here we go. Alright, so, so, uh, there's this vermouth cocktail. It's just basically ver they thought vermouth was bitter enough'cause they didn't really understand vermouth. Right. You know, it was a new thing and it tasted herbal. It's like, so the, the early vermouth cocktail was basically vermouth plus sugar.'cause it, they always put sugar in a cocktail. Cocktail. Oh. Mm-hmm. Was spirits, sugar and bitters. Right. And it was already bitter. Yeah. And they, they thought vermouth was a bitter, but they're not gonna leave the sugar out'cause you gotta put that in or it's not a cocktail. Right. Right. And, and so they start that in the 1860s. Little bit of vermouth, uh, stirred up with ice So you got the, the, the original cocktail is perennially popular in 19th century America, and that's just booze. Uh, but not every, any booze. It's gin number one. Brandy number two, whiskey number three. And then in the 1870s that switches to whiskey number two and Brandy number three'cause American whiskey gets better and brandy gets worse'cause of oxa. And where, when do the names Martini. Okay. Martini get in. So, so what happens is somebody gets the bright idea, and we may never know who that is. Right now, I don't. and I I, and if you don't, no one know you that well. I've looked very, very far. Yeah. For a long, long time. Yeah. For a very long time. And you're a very qualified looker. I'm a good looker. Yeah. Yeah. And, but at, at a certain, that remains to be seen. No. And am I good looking? No, I'm not. But am I a good looker? Yes. I'm You are. So, English language is a complicated thing. But anyway, You get, like the original cocktail is just, you know, booze with bitters and sugar and ice. Mm-hmm. Eventually ice, that's not even original. And, uh, it gets stirred in and then and a certain point like has to be around 1880, not much before, because it really doesn't turn up at all before that, except. Every once in a while somebody has this idea and it gets, it goes nowhere. Okay. So, but somebody in a New York City club, as far as we can tell, because that's the best path to propagate. This thing says, you know, if we took the vermouth cocktail, which is just vermouth and the regular cocktail, which is whiskey, gin, or brandy, and mix the two together, this is actually really tasty and It doesn't mess you up quite as much as the straight whiskey. So, so this becomes the martini or the Manhattan? Well, it's both. Because originally they were the same base versus gin based. Come on. I, no, well, yeah. The, the, the base wasn't, see that's how we look at it now, is the spirit, is the base. Back then it was the vermouth was the base. So the martini in the Manhattan, you could order a martini and it might come with whiskey in it. Yes. Because, you had to specify. So, so when do we get to the time when you say martini and we know it's gin? Uh, that took about two or three years. It was really quick because this drink spread so fast. It was so popular. So what year is this? What we're talking? 1884. 1885. Amazing. All right. So 1881. 1882. It's like the idea of this martini cocktail, and I think it's probably called, it had to be called the martini. Because that was an alternate name for Manhattan. But probably because the easier way to order it was the cocktail with that martini stuff, because the martini was the brand of the, that was, that was most popular brand. Alright, so what's happening now is what we exactly, what we had hoped would happen towards the end of the day here. People have begun storming the podcast room. We have Robert and Mary Kate have joined us. Lisa Laird has joined us and we are so happy to have the restaurant guys room of. Room Legends of Legends. The Room of Legends is growing. So, can we ask Robert Simonson who organized this whole thing? I think this the, the seminal seminar. Is that, can I use that? Can I say that was was the, the talk, you barely got it out. the talk you gave on the history of the cocktail. That's the foundation of where we started and where are we today and why, and I, I'm curious what either each of you have to say is, this has never been done before. The martini seems to have a resurgence and it's as a seminal cocktail. how has this come about? What's changed in the culture that makes this. A really important thing that people have flown across oceans to get to and how do we get here and, and what's the, and Great Lakes people have also flown across Great Lakes and what's it, yeah. And, and so what's happening with the martini? Why is it so important right now? Well, I'll start and, and you can opine on that. Um, this is my theory. I mean, I, I would argue that the martini is more popular right now than probably any point in history now. It's always, it's, it's had ebbs and flows and it's had periods of, you know, great popularity. But perhaps the difference right now is that everyone's drinking them. Not certain generations, not certain demographics, everybody. And I think it started to come back right before COVID, but I think. COVID in a weird way, just kind of put it into overdrive because everyone had to go home and make their own cocktails. And if you're gonna have to make your own cocktails, you're gonna go to the simple ones and you're gonna go to the strong ones. And then once they were done with, uh, COVID and they went back to the bars, they demanded martinis and all the bars had to have martinis. And so that's why we are here. Now and why you can actually have a martini expo, a convention of just about one drink and people will come. What do you think? Why do you think it's David? Well, hold on. I just, I wanna point out that we, the we're asking the question of a panel of the world's foremost journalist and author on. Cocktails and journalists on cocktails, and maybe the world's foremost historian on the cocktail movement as well, couldn't be a more expert penalty two than this. So how do we get here, David? Well, especially with Francis and I, we might be expert, but we're still martini drinking jokes, so, you know, there's that too. Uh, the, for me, I've always said, uh uh, that the shortest distance. Between two points is a dry martini. And, uh, so, you know, you, you've, you've offended the mathematician in me, but you've really encouraged the bartender and the t-shirt maker and me. Yeah, but I, I mean, I've been saying that since the 1980s because that, that, that was my experience with the dry martini I'll agree mostly with Robert about like, uh, this is one of the great moments of the martini. I I kind of think the 1950s was pretty strong on martinis because that was the only drink that you could practically get. but however, thank God it's come back and, you know, I, I. Kind of came into, God help me. My final maturity, let's say, uh, during the cocktail revolution. And, when that started, I was, uh, mostly a martini drinker. And then I'm like, oh my God. Sidecars, uh, bees, knees, knees, uh. Jack Rose vs. Jack Rose. Come on. Thank you, mark. What a great drink. All these fabulous cocktails. And everybody else was like going, oh my God, all these fabulous cocktails. And we did that for a long time. And the martini was sort of like left sitting on the porch waiting, you know? And then, we come crashing into COD. And the next thing you know, it's dry martini, please. You know? And, the current political situation, which is not, uh, amusing to anybody. Well, everybody needs a strong drink to stomach whatever side of the aisle you're on. We don't a strong drink to get through the day. Yeah.'cause it's nasty no matter what side you're on. And I'm not gonna get it further into that, but, suddenly it's like, okay, what do we need? We need is a dry martini. so we're back, we're back to the 1950s living under nuclear terror. You know, it's, but it's happened. And you can look around this room right now. Yeah. Yeah. And you see that the martini is having a new moment right now. And Robert and Mary Kate, you are responsible for this day and you guys should be so proud of yourselves because it has been as close to a perfect event as I have ever. Oh, been to very, and I know you guys have been to events at my place, and I wish that my events were as perfect as this event. Well, I think I speak for Mary, Kate and myself that now we have infinite respect to people who throw events of any kind as a journalist. All I do is walk into events that have been planned by other people and say, oh, what do you got for me? You know, and with no thought of like how hard this is. Yeah. It extremely Talk about how hard it's Mary Kay. we're planning this event and we were lucky enough to have Claire Burton Lang from Hero, events help us and do this. But I think look around you. Look at you guys. You're the first people we call and you're like, yes, we will come and do this podcast from this event. And then we've got the world's, you know, preeminent martini makers who are like, yeah, sure, I'll come and do this. You have an unbelievable star studded bartending. But I love them forever. And if they need anything, I'm there. I mean, blood, whatever. David was out there behind the bar, Well you guys, you all know, I mean, you've been in this industry a long time. It's a close industry and it's a generous industry. I've been covering it for 20 years, so at this point you can call people up and say you want to do a. Martini convention and serve drinks. And they'll go, yeah, okay, sounds like fun. Why not? And uh, so people have been so generous with their time and, um, there was almost nobody that who, who said no, because who doesn't want to go to a martini party? And they're very generous. They're also, I mean, that, you've gotta admit, these are the, it's the most incredibly generous group in the world. Well, I, that's the New York City Bar community. I, I have to say, uh, you know, I. Well, the brands are part of the New York City bar community also. brands who are competing head to head will gladly stand side to side. Absolutely. You know, and that Absolutely. That's, that's kind of amazing. And I think, I think there's kind of a special, I mean, we're at a martini. It's martini expo, so the brands outside these windows are gin, vodka, vermouth. I mean, that's it basically. And I think there's a camaraderie between those spirits because, uh, gin and vermouth, we all love it among us, but those are struggling. Spirits, you know, it's like they're always trying to get more attention. They're always trying to get the public to drink them. So I think it's kind of like a band of brothers out there. This is like, you know, let's all fight for the, the good fight for martinis. Yeah. One, one of the things we're gonna do, and Francis doesn't know we're gonna do this, but in a few days. When you guys have gotten a chance to decompress, we're gonna talk to you guys and you guys are gonna do a little 10 minute wrap up of the whole Martini Expo podcast for us. We're gonna do that together. We would love that. one of the things that I want to just point out is that, the New York City Bar community is, is very community. And let's, let's throw New Jersey into the Tri-state area bar community.'cause we're from there. And you know. There is a, a spirit of camaraderie, You guys are the only people who do what you do. There. So if people are, if the community is not as tight, it's probably because they don't do what you do. I grew up near you. I I should mention that, uh, Mary Kay is, is a stage left og. Oh. You know, she, she went back, she went in back in the early days, you know. That's right. Well, we got two Jersey girls say, say something. I'm absolutely loving all the martinis that I'm enjoying today. It's a little bit outta my wheelhouse, but I am loving every minute. They've been just absolutely phenomenal. Unfortunately, Dave, I did not to get, get to try yours, but Salvatore and Dale and like, there's just the, the people that are here, the bartending community is just amazing and I just have to give it to both of you. Mary Kayton. Robert for what you have done Bringing this group to of people together is really a special thing. It was a lot of work and I commend you. Well, in a, in a world where there's a lot of noise and everybody's looking for sponsorship for all sorts, sorts of different events and different spirits, and we're in a, in a, in a rough world right now where it's kind of hard to get sponsorship for different things. This is a unique thing. It's the first time it's happened. And, um, the martini is a seminal and, uh, foundational drink. I think this is, this has come together unlike any other spirit event The brands have been great and we feel very proud about the brands that we got. We made an early decision early on that we wanted it to be somewhat curated. We didn't wanna accept all comers. Mm-hmm. And like every gin out there is a gin that I have in my cupboard at home that I make martinis with all the time. Not currently. So if you have any extra gin, well, we'll ask the brands. Like you don't want to carry all of that on, do you? That looks heavy. Let me help you. Well, anyway, this has been a fabulous time. we are so proud to be here. You guys gotta, recognize well, that this was a joy for us. Uh, we're super happy to be here. Thank you Robert and Mary Kate. Uh, this was fun uh, I'm happy to be here, you know. You say martini and I'm gonna come. That's the thing. And I know that sounds sturdy, but uh, that's not what I mean. Love it. Alright. True. Thank you guys so much. Thanks guys.

the-restaurant-guys_1_09-23-2025_164505: 49:28

Hey, that was great. We had a great time at the Martini Expo. It was fantastic. If not a little bit exhausting. And if you're hearing this, that means you're a subscriber and you mean the world to us. Mark. And I wanna thank you very much. You're what helps us keep this going. Uh, we saw a number of you at the Martini expo took advantage of the discount code that we had for our members. And thanks for being part of the family. We really appreciate it and we'll see you next week. I'm Francis Shot. I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys. You can always find out more@restaurantguyspodcast.com.