Orlando Pagán Crafts a Star in the South

The Banter

The Guys answer a listener’s question about one of their favorite topics: Martinis!

The Conversation

The Restaurant Guys travel to Charleston, SC to meet up with chef Orlando Pagán at his newly Michelin-starred restaurant Wild Common. They cover tasting menus, health challenges and, for some reason, Dungeons and Dragons. 

The Inside Track

The Guys get real with Orlando about taking care of yourself and taking care of those around you.

“I preach the same thing to my staff. Ttake care of yourself, take care of your body  because if you take care of your body, then your mind is clear, then you're a better cook, you're a better husband, you're better friend, you know what it might be. And then we all win,” Orlando Pagán on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025

Bio

Chef Orlando Pagán is the chef behind Charleston’s Wild Common, where his inventive, globally inspired tasting menus earned the restaurant a Michelin star. Trained at Johnson & Wales and seasoned in Michelin-level kitchens from Miami to San Francisco, he blends fine-dining precision with the flavors of his Puerto Rican heritage. After rising to Executive Chef at McCrady’s Tavern, he took the helm at Wild Common, where his creativity — and resilience in the face of MS — define his cooking and leadership. 

Info

Where do you get a great martini? Email

TheGuys@restaurantguyspodcast.com

Wild Common

https://www.wildcommoncharleston.com/

Orlando mentioned Dr. Wahls

https://terrywahls.com/about/

Michelin Guide to the American South

https://guide.michelin.com/en/article/michelin-guide-ceremony/all-the-stars-in-the-michelin-guide-to-the-american-south

Enjoy over-decorated restaurants with Christmas cocktails through January 6, 2026

https://www.catherinelombardi.com/

Check out New Year's Eve in New Brunswick, NJ

https://www.newbrunswicknewyearseve.com/

Our Places

Stage Left Steak
https://www.stageleft.com/

Catherine Lombardi Restaurant
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/

Stage Left Wineshop
https://www.stageleftwineshop.com/

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Transcript

the-restaurant-guys_2_12-07-2025_122217: 0:59

Hello everybody and welcome. You are listening to the Restaurant Guys. I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot. Together we own stage left and Ka Lombardi restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey. We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life. Hello, mark. Hey Francis. How are you? I'm great, thanks. I think we're gonna have a terrific show today. I know we are. For those of you out in Listener Land, when we were down in Charleston, South Carolina, we met with Orlando Pagan, who's the chef at Wild Common down there. And we had set up the meeting beforehand'cause we were very excited about the stuff he's doing and we were excited to talk to him. But he got a Michelin Star 10 days before we talked to him. So pretty exciting restaurant guys on the cutting edge, the, you know, you know what happened? The Michelin people heard we were gonna interview'em, and they scooped us. They, they do that. They scooped us. They said, we better hurry. They're scoopers. They come in every 10 or 12 years and scoop people. Uh, yeah. So that's gonna be a fun interview but I, I thought we would start today, with some, uh, listener questions. Okay. Go ahead. So, one of our longtime listeners who has become a friend, but we met him because he is a listener on the show. Mm-hmm. Uh, out in Chicago, we have Kelvin Roth. Um, and he sent us a few questions that I want to answer on the air.'cause they're germane. So Kelvin from Chicago, go ahead. He says, next time I'm in New Jersey, I'd like to do a martini tasting. I'd like your bar to make me a mark martini, and then a Francis Martini and then a Jennifer Martini, assuming there is one. And oh, there is one. Um, I never had a martini moment, so maybe that becomes mine. I still remember fondly my first visit when I had a Madeira moment. Thanks to you guys. So I think that's gonna be quite the challenge. You know, pit us against each other. That's a way to get some mojo going. I don't know if it's a challenge right now. I think the problem, I think our favorite martini might be the same right now, by the way. For, for 35 years, you would've had a, more interesting. Challenge debate. Yeah. But, you know, mark and I have, and Jennifer, we've all settled and the press gin martini, the green dot, PROSA Gin is the, best martini in the world. And the blue.is. The best one. That's not a hundred dollars. Correct. Spectacular. It is the second best one. Mm-hmm. And we totally agree with a twist. No Olive. Discard the twist. Ice cold stirred. I mean, we agree. So I wanna share something with our listeners to that. Sorry, Kelvin. It's not gonna be that much fun. Here's your martini. Yeah, no, we should make'em buy three. There you go. 1, 2, 3. Which one did you like better? Oh, okay. That'll be, that'll be 60 bucks. the Procera event, so we had a Procera Procera gin launched their, gin here in New Jersey. Uh, we had a party for them and Dale DeGraff was here and was our guest bartender and I got a, can I just tell you something? And we haven't really talked about that event that much. Dale was behind that bar for three or four hours. He must have made dude two or 300 cocktails. Dude, he was moving around behind that bar like he was 27 years old again. And uh, it was so much fun. He was having a great time to have Dale be our bartender again. really like be your bartender. Right. And he was so, and we have had events in the past where Dale's doing a lot of talking in public. He's doing signing books he's doing. But Dale got behind the bar, uh, with one of our bartenders. And was making those martinis. And lemme tell you something, he was having a great time. Yep. And he was talking to people and, he was the bartender for real. And he was telling stories and, but he was also making drink. Amazing. Amazing. I, I want to be clear, I, I could not be that bartender anymore. Oh, I could for a stretch. Yeah. A short stretch, 18 minutes, you know, that's, that's my stretch, you know? Yeah. Also, but he was fantastic. It was, it was a sight to behold. It warmed my heart. It was, it was fun to watch. No, that's great. And you remember why this movement started? It started because Dale was bartending just like that, behind a bar in New York City. He started the movement that, man, it reminds me when you're talking about that of, um, when we, when we were younger and we started bartending at The Frog and the Peach, which is another restaurant in town, which the owners that we worked for sold to their chef mm-hmm. Who's a friend of ours, lovely New Brunswick, has some great old restaurants in it. But we were behind this big long bar and we built the bar crowd. Alright. It was us, we built the bar crowd from, you know, people waiting to have dinner, having a drink or two to a. Bump and bar that went on till three o'clock in the morning. Yep. We, we were the fastest bartenders I knew because if we could keep it all up, they wouldn't have assign a second bartender. Mm-hmm. We wouldn't have split the money. So we were fast and good, but I remember when they did say, listen, we need, I'm sorry guys. We need to have two bartenders there two nights a week. We're like, okay. Uh, so we, we both worked together behind the bar and I would tell you we didn't do that for very long. But it was a ton of fun. It was fun. It was of fun. It was a fun place to work. Uh, but the bar was built for two bartenders or one me. It wasn't really built for a me and somebody else. Okay, so you are a big guy and I always have. Uh, but, but back then you were kind of still a big guy, but I was a stick You live. I was 145 pounds. But what was funny is you were like the whale and I was like the little fish like running around. Not a compliment the rail. No, it is by the way, it's not, oh yeah. Not it. When somebody's gotta be thrown outta the bar. They never called me. They never called me. They never said, get a little sticky guy out here to get rid of that guy. Nope. Nope. That was you. No, but you were, you were this center of gravity that moved and the only way to work behind the bar with you was to zip around you. Okay. If you wanted to say. You were the planet and I was the moon. Okay. No. A little better. No. How about you were the battleship and I was a little PT boat. How's that? Was that better? Just better. Okay. Okay. HMS, mark Pascal. Um, but you were, but the other thing that was great about bartending back in those days is reminiscing. Time to start this. Nine minutes. Everybody was, mark and I were, we shared regulars and we went out of our way. Like I would. Come in on Mark's night so that,'cause there were people that came for Mark and I wanted them to come in for me, and we both did and Mark did the same. And to this day in the restaurant, like, oh, absolutely type a personality. The football coach loves me, but he loves Mark Moore. Oh, he doesn't wanna talk to you? No, he does for a few minutes, but he's not coming back because of me. He wants to order a bottle of bru vanilla from you and keep it moving. That's it. And, you know, the director of the ballet is not particularly interested to talk to you, to be honest with you. we know that we resonate immediately with different people. I, mm-hmm. I think one of the great things about us and our friendship. Is we have in our group of friends, all of those different people who eventually come to know the other. Mm-hmm. But there are guys who take a look at you like Italian North Jersey from Nutley talk, like they're in the mob, mark Pascal A but eventually those people adopt me as their, you know, cute little Irish buddy. Mm-hmm. But, and it's the same kind of thing. But I remember when we were behind the bar, it was the first time we experienced this when we worked together. what happens in most bars is one bartender, let's say take service bar and the other bartender will take the bar and the, Mm-hmm. The bar room. Uh, but that is not how Francis and I did it. We literally would switch off person to person. and the other person pick up service bar. And then I'd go talk about the football game. Yeah. Yeah. We're in a theater town. And we're a university town. Mm-hmm. The college coaches come in. It would be stupid to send me over there mm-hmm. To break the ice and talk with them. the Shakespeare company comes in? Yeah. Or the, ballet company comes in. It would be foolish to send you over there. Can I, can I tell you something? Yeah. The, announcer for, CBS basketball was in the other night. Yeah. I, I didn't even tell you. You could have said his name and I wouldn't have known who he was. No disrespect to him, but I think that's one of the strengths of our partnership. Absolute. And it's really, it's really ly kind of fun. Always been fun. Alright. Uh, I have another one from Martini. Kelvin asks, have you ever sent a martini back because of the glassware? I know you described your perfect glassware, but is there a point where you reject the drink Mark? No. Okay. The only thing I would hold two questions. Have you ever sent it back? No. Is there a point at which you reject the drink? Oh, not, just not drink it. Yeah, just push it inside. Absolutely. Uh oh. Thank you. 20% of the drinks Howie Martini. It's lovely. I'll have a beer. Yeah, it's lovely. You know, I've changed my mind. Nothing little too strong for me. I've changed Martini day. I, uh. The only thing that I would do in a restaurant with my martini, other than not drink it, is ask for it to be colder. Yeah, but how do you make it colder? Because by the time, here's the thing for bartenders, and I agree with you, mark, uh, I'm gonna tell you because I think I'm more tolerant in this way than you. I could drink a watered down martini. Easier than you could tolerate a watered down martini heathen if it was cold enough. You know, it's, it's, it's not really heathen. It's my fraternity days are doing shots. Right. You are no longer allowed to be friends with Dale Degra. I'm crawling Dale and he's gonna, he's gonna excise you from the group. You're not allowed to be friends with Dale. Here's the thing, okay? You can't fix a martini. You're doing it wrong. You do it right, wrong time, wrong. You're thinking of it, you're thinking of it as a watered down martini instead of just a shot that you gotta get through. And it's just, I don't get cough syrup. You gotta get to the other side. You all, it's not a vegetable. If you, you no good is hack. You're like, oh, I better drink that. There are children starving who don't have any martinis. That's not a thing. There are drunks that have no martinis. They're dump on. They've been cut off. They've, why have to drink it for them? That's hysterical. Um, no. So here's the thing. You can't fix a martini uhhuh. You can never, if you've made a martini poorly, you can never make it a better martini. I don't send martinis back. people do this a lot with martinis, not just me, but I will give very specific instructions on how I want my martinis really. And by the way, if you're to gr in Bemelmans Bar, you're like, I'll have a martini and you know, it's gonna be great. for all the times that Marcus had to sit next to me rolling his eyes at me, uh, but he, he also will say, I'll have one of those'cause he doesn't have to do it. Uh, you don't even know the amount of times I just put$20 behind your back and handed it to the waiter. Uh, okay, hold on a second. We are both generous, tipper of the same ilk, so that that bartender is doing well, but. Here's what you gotta know. For all the instructions that I give the bartender on my martini, I've left out four or five because I'm like, wow. You know, I can't tell'em to pre chill a shaker, you know? But, but honestly, a martini is just gin and a glass. It's all technique. Mm-hmm. And what I actually don't let, I still go to old school bars. If you go to a bar and they're shaking your martini, the very least you can do is now, most bars get that right now, but there's some bars down the shore.

Francis: 11:40

I go to the steakhouse that I really like, but they still serve those big glasses where it's so much, oh, that it's warm by the end, and then they shake it. that's wrong. If, if you listen to that RA show or, or watch the, the YouTube. If we put the YouTube up, one of the things you will see. We drink that martini for 30 minutes. Oh yeah. And my last sip of that martini is still cool and delicious. And that's what a great martini is. It's still delicious In the last sip, it's not, I'm gonna punish myself and drink the backwash. Now this last sip is delicious. So the psigen will give you the, what we think is the best martini. Here's the, here's the. Recipe for the best martini you take the mixing glass that you're gonna put it into. I like to use a glass mixing glass. Mm-hmm. Because it, it holds the cold. That's not really how that works, but it keeps the heat out. Um, so I have the glass, missing glass that's in the freezer or the refrigerator. I have the martini glass that's in the freezer or the refrigerator. Um, and then it is two and a half ounces of brace gin. Yeah. One half ounce of Dolan dry moh. Um, I don't put any bitters in. Then you take, and I keep those in the refrigerator, and then I put those over ice and I stir to get about a 14, 15% dilution. Mm-hmm. Because everything's cold, so you don't get much dilution. And then I pour into the cold glass, express the twist over the top, discard the twist. If mark's around, I throw it at mark. I, here's something and, and you know that I've done this forever. Like even with my orange twists or whatever. expressing the oil and discarding the twists. Yeah. Eliminates the bitterness of the pith. Yeah. You don't get that little bitter finish. Well, and even if it didn't have bitterness, I don't like garnishes that don't add flavor. but that to us is the perfect martini. And if the glass is cold and the shaker's cold and the liquid's cold going in it, you can drink that for 10 or or 12 minutes. And that's, uh, where I'm telling you, if you watch the show. It's 30 minutes. I take that last sip at about 25, 28 minutes and it was perfect. It was a perfect sip of, of martini. Who, who, who made that martini for you? Uh, I think was Dale de Grafi that day? It was not. It was not, it was, it was me. You bastard

the-restaurant-guys_2_12-07-2025_125016: 13:49

alright, so Kelvin has a third question mark. He says, uh, if you were to put together the top 10 places to order a martini, what locations would be on that list? Now don't answer. Now don't answer. I have. So we, what we're gonna do here, sh what we're gonna do here is, um, I wanna throw that out to you as a restaurant. Guys, I really want to hear from you guys. Mark and I talk all the time about, we get little emails from you guys. I want to hear from you on a, on a, on a topic. Throughout the country, where are the top three? Or out of the country or outta the country if you're in London or, yeah, a hundred percent. I forgot how Berlin or whatever. I'm sorry. I forgot how global the restaurant guys really is. I forgot about the empire. Um, we wanna know. Where you the top three places or if you wanna think of one, just send us one where you would get a martini and why it's great there. And the guys@restaurantguyspodcast.com. Um, we are gonna send one of you a restaurant guys mug. Uh, so you can have our mug on your mug when you have coffee. please tell us where you go for martinis and why they're great there. We'd love to have that be a little class participation number. The guys@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

the-restaurant-guys_2_12-07-2025_122217: 14:53

Alright, well, so hopefully Kelvin, you have not turned off your, podcast yet, and you listened to the end, uh, and, uh, we had some little insight on martinis. I didn't expect that whole journey, but thanks for the questions. We'll be back with Orlando Pagan Michelin Stard chef about his newly minted Michelin Star days after he got it with the restaurant. Guys, stick with us. You can always find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com.

the-restaurant-guys_1_11-14-2025_112600: 15:15

Hey, welcome back everybody. Today's show is recorded on location at Wild Common in Charleston, South Carolina. Mark and I have pulled up a couple of chairs here at one of the most exciting restaurants in the low country, chef Orlando. Pagan is the creative force behind Wild Common. His food and his restaurant are unique. It's tasting menu only format. It's a hard reservation to get, and people are talking. Some of those people are the Michelin reviewers who just bestowed a Michelin star on Wild Common. And Mark and I heard about this, so we jumped on an airplane, flew down here to talk to Chef Pagan and we're sitting in his restaurant right now. Orlando, how are you? I'm doing well. Welcome to the show. Thank you for proud me. I gotta say, I, mark and I have been doing this for a long time and we have certain things that are always formulaic and that's when Mark always says, so Orlando, welcome to the show, but we're sitting in your restaurant so I can't really welcome and I saw him stutter. Welcome to your own restaurant. Welcome to, to the microphone that I put on your table. Yeah. So can we start with, and there's a lot I wanna talk with you about because you do some really cool stuff. Can we start with the Michelin Star? Yes, absolutely. Um, yeah, that's new. I mean, this is, we're talking 10 days from now. Yeah, 10 days. Yeah. It's a big deal. Yeah, we're we're, I'm very tired. Very tired. Yeah. So, so Michelin doesn't review everywhere in the United States, and it's kind of interesting that they had reviewed in some of the bigger cities, but now it takes an entity to bring someone to a county or a region or a city. Um. And so what is the region? Is it Charleston? Is it Greater Charleston? No, it was the south. South. It's the south. It's whole American South. Yeah, it's whole American South. And who brought, Michelin into the south? You know, that's a good question. I just cook, I should say. I don't, I know. I don't care. They gave me a star's. What? I That's great. So did, did you know about that? Did you have a star in the back of your head? Uh, you know. We when, when they announced it, they're coming to the south. We, you know, we had a meeting and mm-hmm. I talked to the staff, I'm like, you know, let's, let's do what we do. Um,'cause I think the food we do is, is a Michelin star food, you know, working in the West Coast and Michelin star restaurants like we are doing a good job. So if we get it, great. If not, we just continue to what we do. So you, so you were in a Michelin Star restaurant in San Francisco? I had, yes. Yes sir. Yeah. So, so you've had this experience before. You, you were the chef of a restaurant that Yes. Yeah. That earned a Michelin star. You knew what it what it took. how did that translate to, to, here? San Francisco, big city. Lots of people know about Michelin nots of people, uh, concentrating on it. Yeah. Know. Physically trying to get a Michelin star, uh, how did that manifest itself here in, in South Carolina? So I think, you know, looking at, looking back, uh, comparing those restaurants, what we have right now, right? It's, it's, we've done things, I've done things very different from, I used to do in the past. Uh, you know, we, I focus more in work-life balance. I want my staff to have the same work life balance. You know, one of the things I, I just wanna stop you right there. We've been, so we were in Charleston once before. We did an on location at the Wine and food festival in the spring. Every chef in South Carolina says one of the reasons I'm here, one of the things that's different is I've rejected that model of, of driving yourself crazy. Yes. And, and, and having no life. And there's a, there's a work life balance and you are a hundred percent, and you are a Michelin star chef saying the same thing. A hundred percent. Yeah. We don't kill ourselves, you know? Yeah. There may be days that, you working a lot and, but usually, you know, we focus on, having a good work life balance, having a good mindset, you know, it's, it's very important to me, one of, one of the things that I've said to my staff for. The 33 years we've been open is I, we always try and work people a five day work week. Yes. Especially front of house people. Sorry. Yes. But one of the reasons I want, I, I want you to work, uh, a five day work weekend chefs too though, because we all need one day to take care of our crap. Yes. Right. And I wanna work with interesting people who do interesting things. Yes. So you need another day to do interesting things. And if I, if you're gonna go to cool restaurants, if you're gonna do interesting things and visit museums and know what's going on in the world, you. You have to have two days off or you're gonna fall behind. And I, and I've watched a million chefs do this, I watch a million chefs open their own restaurant work six days a week. Yeah. And from that moment in time, their food never changes. Their mindset never changes. I, I mean, I watched, I, I, countless chefs do this and, they don't progress from that point. And they're wonderful. And their food's wonderful and, and they do great things, but they, they stop. We generating new information. We started that policy in the 1990s. Yeah. And it was very unusual back then. Um, but having a work-life balance, even if it's just to spend some time with your kids and get your head together. Yeah. Like Mark said, we realize if you have one day a week off, you spend that day doing the laundry and get in the car fixed and change the oil and vacuum it. Yeah, a hundred percent. And you need that other day. But it seems like everybody does that in South Carolina. You know, it's, it's a thing here. It took me a while to get used, to be honest. You know, coming from the west coast, San Francisco was like, go, go, go. You know, running mission star restaurants and busy, busy. And you know, once I came here, I remember my first job I was working for Sean Brock at a rads and you know, he wanted me to. Change something with the bread. And I'm trying to get in touch with the baker and I'm calling him, uh, Sean was in, in Tennessee at that time in Nashville. And I call him, I say, chef, I can't get in touch with this guy. And he started laughing. He's like, welcome to the south. You're somebody's time, right? I was like, it's not, you know, it's funny, I had an interesting thing. I spent a little time in Spain. I, and I brought uh, my friends Jim and Heidi and I were in Spain and, uh. He was like, they don't do anything on time here. I'm like, oh, they absolutely do one thing on time. What's that close for Siesta? It might not open right at five. It's important. They close and it's, it's important. It makes for a great life. And I think that there was a thought for a long time that you couldn't be on top if you didn't kill yourself. Like a, you know, like in a boiler room. Stockbroker situation. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's how I, I was raised in the industry. Right. Yeah, it was, it was. Like the kill yourself, you know, the more you work mm-hmm. The better you are. Like the, you know, um, do you, do you have respect, like people will respect you and, you know, it took time to realize that that's not the way, you know, it's, it's just, but, but frankly, even we We're open seven days a week until COVID. Right, right. We open, we tried to get the people five days a week. Right. But week, so you work five days was seven days. Seven days a week. So the, so the restaurants were open seven days a week. And it wasn't until COVID that we started closing on Sundays. people are like, why do you close on Sundays instead of Mondays? Especially us. We're in a theater district. Yeah. And we're like, you know, Sundays are a, Busier day than Mondays for us, because being in the theater district, theaters are closed on Mondays, but Sunday is such a good day to be off. Sunday is such a good day for your, for the people in the organization, myself included. Uh, I don't care about Francis, but I need Sundays off, so that, that became just a better day to, to be off. it's funny because as young men, we never would've switched that up. That we definitely would've been closed on Mondays and not on Sundays. And the wisdom of, of age, I guess we, we figured out yes, you know. Let's forego few dollars a week. A few dollars a week, and have better lives for everyone. Well, and the, and my staff has never been happier than they're right now. And the other thing is, if you know you have Sundays off and you are, I don't know, dating a civilian, right. Someone who's not in the restaurant industry. Yeah. That's important. You get to spend some, I mean, you've robbed most Fridays, you've robbed most Saturdays. Mm-hmm. but you know you have Sundays together. What a quality of life difference that makes. Mm-hmm. Let's talk about big difference. Let's talk about what you do on the five days you are here. You did an interesting thing and Mark pointed at us out earlier. Yeah. And we tend to do this as well when everybody zigs. You zagged. So you went from an a la carte menu to a tasting menu. Yes, we did. And everybody else did exactly the opposite. The whole rest of the world is abandoning tasting menus because they're so restrictive and people just won't tolerate it. Right. But it was, you know, it was, it was an accident. It was kinda like the same thing you guys were talking about COVID, right? Uh, bef when we opened, we a la carte uhhuh, and then after COVID, uh, you know, we opened back the restaurant and it was, it was two of us. It was just me and my sacred su chef at that time. Mm-hmm. Um, and then I, I look at the ownership and I was like, ah, you know, there's a lot for two people. So can we do tasting? He's like, yeah, absolutely. Do tasting. And because we're coming out of COVID, you know. The feedback was incredible.'cause people were saying, you know, for the last few months I've been thinking about what I have to do for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Yeah. Yeah. I want to come here, I want you guys to just like, just whatever's in front of me, I'll eat it. And, and then it just evolved from there. You know, we, we were having only like, I think it was. Three courses and then four, and now, you know, five courses. Mm-hmm. And that's, you know, it keeps evolving. So, we had our, our restaurant stage left. We had an a la carte menu. Uh, but we had for 15 years at least a or more, we had a four course tasting menu and a seven course tasting menu. And then it was wine pairings. Premium wine pairings. Right? and it was all revolved around the tasting menu. And for a long time, 75% of the meals that went out were some, there was a pre-the prefe that was all in some sort of a prefe and then interest just dropped off in that. And so we, I think we stopped doing tasting menus before COVID. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. and I just don't see tasting menus that often We found that people are. uh, they, they want more flexibility than that. They're a little less tolerant. They don't have the attention span. Yeah. you, I mean, you are you're making a go of it and I, I understand your reputation is also that special orders do upset you. Indeed they do. They do. Well, it's not just reputation. It's right on the menu. Yeah. No substitutions. We can't, we can't help you. It's, it's hard. I mean, it's, you know, you've seen the property. We do, we do events, we do a lot of weddings. Mm-hmm. We do big things. Uh, and the kitchen staff, were, were just small, you know, small kitchen staff. And there will be, that's, we started doing a couple years ago. There will be days that, you know, we're looking at the prep list and I'm thinking like, we're doing five different menus, you know? Mm-hmm. Because we want, we wanna accommodate five guests. But then at the same time, we have 30 guests suffering. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, because, you know, we're focusing on this and we spreading ourself very thin. and then that becomes very stressful. Yep. And now, you A chef alone years ago told me, happy cooks make happy food. Now we're not happy. Mm-hmm. Now we're just cooking angry and you don't want to cook angry. I mean, by the way, it's just a bad way. I have a picture in my head of a t-shirt with like, uh, it says, happy chefs make happy food with an angry chef with a cleaver on the on on. That's, that's what he saw in your face right there. Well, the chef, well, we will say that. He's like, you know, happy chefs cook happy food, and, and here we are just getting slammed. And I'm like, man, I, I That's what you say to him. That's exactly what you said. I've been in kitchens a long time. That's what the chef says to the waiter, when you bring in this special order, you're like, yes, three chefs make happy, not happy, Bob. Not happy. Our rule in our restaurants is, and we do accommodate as much as we can. Allergies and no nuts and soy and all those things. Yeah. But the rule is if your request is going to adversely affect the other people in the dining room. That I cannot honor your request, right? Yes. if your request, you know you want a bechamel, I, I cannot make you a bechamel during, during service. I'll take that one line cook and he'll make dinner and everybody else he's gonna work on your be for 30 minutes. Exactly that. I can't do that. Yeah. And, and it sounds like yours is just a, a, you know, the same theory just to the next level. Yes. Well, we, you know, the only, the only ones we don't, we can't accommodate is gluten, dairy. Vegans and seafood allergy. Right, right.'cause we, we cook, you know, with so much seafood here in Charleston, but everything else, you know, we accommodate shellfish, you know, kind of all those nuts and things like that. But it, we would love to, it's, it's just really, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just really hard. And a lot of times I feel, I feel bad because I don't need, I don't, personally, I don't need gluten or dairy. Mm-hmm. Uh, but that's. Some health. Yep. Things, you know, that, that help me to be where I am right now. healthy wise. like I was saying before, sometimes I'm looking at the privilege and I'm like, you know, now I'm coming in at nine in the morning. Yeah. So that takes time away from my family, from, you know, my wife love making lists, Uhhuh, Uhhuh, so, you know, going down the list, things I'll have to fix in the house. So now she's mad at me. Well, you know, it's, it's funny, we can, we can accommodate a lot of things. Mm-hmm. Because we have two kitchens both in the same building. I've got a lot of people working for us. So if you've got two or three people executing on a high end, you just can't do some of the things that mm-hmm. We may have available to us. And the other thing, by the way, this is for the listening public. We do wine dinners and some where we do have set menus. People say, oh, I, I hate to make a special request if you make a special request when you make your reservation for the wine dinner. Or, give me some time to be ready for you when you come in. Yes. That is a heck, heck of a lot different from it's Saturday night. Everybody's running around like a maniac and you're like, listen, I want no gluten, no dairy. Yes. I, I have to give you a house salad because that's what Exactly, because that's all I have. That fits here. Because we can't stop and think about it. We can't prep anything for it. Exactly. And then they other get suffer. Yeah, exactly. I, and when, when people make a reservation here. You get, you get a text message, you get an email, and you get a phone call and we always ask, do you have any dietary restrictions? Because then we can accommodate it. Mm-hmm. Um, but sometimes, you know, like you were saying, it's seven 30, we're super busy. Mm-hmm. And some somebody comes in and be like, well, I'm vegetarian, but I hate mushroom carrots. You I know. What do you. What do you do? You know, you do actually know a guy that's, I been Don't sit here. I, I wanna tell you about a, a, an amusing conversation that I overheard, um, two different staff members having with one lady who wanted to make a reservation. I'm so sorry if this is you and you're listening, but it's really crazy. You're a little bit nutsy. So I heard the conversation just from the, the staff side and I stopped in my track to listen to it. She had called and wanted a reservation for nine o'clock on New Year's Eve, our busiest with fireworks across the street on New Year's. Both restaurants are full. We do more covers than any of the night of the year. it's a night where, where in a restaurant where we normally do one and a half to two turns, we're doing four on New Year's, new Year's Eve. Yeah. Right. Restaurants both doing four turns. Right. Do you do special menu for New Year's Eve sometimes we'll have a tasting menu for, for, for like the 10 o'clock seating. Okay. for a cager of people. But it's a la carte. It's all la cart for Yes. Four turns. That's a lots, that's a lot. That's a lot. Right. And it goes until two o'clock in the morning. So this woman said, well, I, you know, new Year's Eve should be a night where you have whitely tablecloths.

Francis: 29:47

Do you have white lemon tablecloths in your restaurant? It's like, no, we, we did years ago. But we don't have tablecloths in a restaurant's like, well, can I have a tablecloth on my table And Julie's like, what time do you wanna come in? Because if it was four 30, I probably could have done it. Mm-hmm. Um, she's like, no, I wanna come in at nine to nine 30 and stay for the fireworks. And she's like, ma'am, I cannot lean in a table in the middle of service on our busiest night of the year. I just, I can't guarantee you that I can do it. She's like, well, I'll bring in my own tablecloths and I'll line in it. Ma'am, you will not. Wow. Unset and linen at your own table. And that was one of the times where we just had to say no because would, it would throw monkey. I always, I always tell people a story when, you know, when I worked, I worked for the Ritz Carlton Coconut Grove, when it opens in 2002, something like that. And the thing with Ritz Carlton at that time was like, you can't say no, right? So, mm-hmm. I remember this lady wanted green beans. We don't have green beans. The chef looked at me, he is like, we can't say no. So I need to go in my car, go to the store, buy green beans when I come back. He's yelling at me.'cause I'm behind, the kitchen is behind. I gotta cook this person. Green beans. And at that time I was like, why are we doing this? Yeah. I could get into a car accident. Now I'm cooking upset. Now we're making older people upset. Like, if, if we can make it, yes we gonna do it. But this sometimes we just can't. And sometimes people don't understand that. So let's, let's talk about, Where you came from? Yes. Let's talk about it. So you, you were born in Puerto Rico? Yep. Born and raised. Born and raised. And you, you only learned, I guess, when you moved to Miami, you told me earlier. I did, yes. Yes. So, so tell us about your cooking journey. Where, where you come from, how you got to be you. Yeah. Um, so. I assume you were you before you were coach? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, it is very interesting'cause my family, they're all engineers. My family are all engineers. Uh, and I was the next in line. I, I think there was like eight engineers before me, and I was the next one in line and, you know, I was like, maybe I'll be engineering. But I guess what I was, I always did horrible in school. I never paid attention. Yeah. I was, I was not a good student, you know, I, I went to school just to have fun. Mm-hmm. That was it. so I, I went to school, uh, and I, you know, like half a semester. And then, you know, I told my mom, uh, I was like, he's a Hispanic mom. I was like, you know, I'm gonna take a year off. And she's like, yeah, right, you're gonna go work. So my, at that time my cousin used to work in a country club in Puerto Rico, and then she got me a job as a boss boy. Um, and I always tell people it was like day one. Between that chaos. I don't, it makes sense to you guys. Oh, it makes sense. Oh, yeah. If you, if peace, you know, the chaos and the adrenaline that Yes. That comes with being in the restaurant. You're, this is home. There's nothing like it. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm living it now and I'm, I'm happy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, between that chaos, I was like, I belong here, you know, I belong in this. Um, and then I was a boss boy, and then I, I just fell in love with the food and, and the chef at that time, he was. He was one of the most upcoming chefs in Puerto Rico. He was the captain of the culinary team. And he, you know, he was a good looking guy. All the girls wanted to say hi to him. And I was like, I have that. I was like a, like 18 year makes me a lot been happening for years. I dunno, somebody told me youre the brains and, and yeah. And friends as look, so I don't know. That's, uh, you. But then we got here and you realized, yeah, ah, people are wrong. I'm the brains. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and I wanted to be a chef for all the wrong reasons first. Um, you basically wanted to get the girls. Yes. Yeah. Okay. my uncle, that raised me is like a father figure to me. We always watch cooking shows. We always watch great chefs of the world. I, as soon as I watched the first episode, it just, it just, that was it. I was, I was in love with cooking. Um, I mean, I can tell you. Specific shows that I was like, I want to be that guy one day. You know, I wanna be that chef one day. I was talking to my mom and, you know, she was very supportive and we, we knew if I wanted to be better and succeed, I needed to go somewhere else. and I had opportunity to go to Johnson and Wells University in North Miami. And, and that was it. You know, I, I packed, I moved, I, I understood English. Didn't spoke that well. It done right. Yeah. Um, and it was scary, but you know, I, I did it and you know, and here we are. And here we are. Here we are. And so now you, you go through work in a lot of great kitchens and you came here, you were, you were cooking before COVID. Yeah. Okay. And you know, in looking back on, on your life,'cause we were unfamiliar with you until recently, before you got to Michelin Star, in fact. Okay. We were thrilled when you got one. Yeah., But it seems as though the press. Really exploded about you, about a, after you went to the tasting menus about a year ago. So something happened? Yeah. What changed? Yeah. And I'm curious as to what happened because you, you started here in 2019, but about a year ago, something happens here and everybody starts to notice you. Yeah. Um, I think it's the Y beard. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You become whined. No, you know, you know, I think is, I always been. If I don't know somebody, I'm shy, like in here, I feel comfortable'cause this is, this is my house. Mm-hmm. Uhhuh, uh, but if, if I'm somewhere else, I'm very shy. I don't know how to start a conversation. So Really, really, yeah. Sometimes people, I'm, I'm kind of awkward, uh, and I, I say jokes that is funny to me, but not everybody else. Oh, mark. And I know that one. When I'm nervous, I'm just, you know, you. Too. So that's expected. You're supposed to have those juice jokes that are Yeah. You know. I know. I gotta tell you, you're smooth, man. Yeah. It's in here. You're, because you're in the house. well, I've been drinking since nine. Yeah. So, no.'cause we we're in my house, so I feel comfortable. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, about a year and a half ago I realized, you know, the restaurant's been open for five years at a time. And, and I've been invited to do a lot of events and things like that. And I always say no because I just get very nervous and, I, I get very anxious, you know, uh, my anxiety gets, has been getting worse. I, I live with multiple sclerosis. Mm-hmm. And I think that has been kind of shifting the how my brain works. Uh, and about a year and a half ago, uh, I decided, you know. I need to, I need to put myself out there. We need to promote the restaurant. There's such a talented people working in this place. And not only that, people that I care about, you know, everybody here, we've been together for years. I didn't want to put in jeopardy their job or cutting their hours. So I started putting myself out there and kind of doing all this events that in the past, I would say no. Uh, it, it was not because I thought I was better than anybody. It's just because I, I. I would get very, very nervous and very anxious about it. So was there one thing that happened that was the big break where people were like, where have you been all my life? You've been here and we didn't notice you before. Well, I think once, I got the, uh, James be nomination, uh, that we made it to the semifinalists. people kind of started noticing the restaurant. Mm-hmm. Coming in and, and seeing the service that we provide here is very, very different. It is, it's something that. We touch tables, all the chefs touch tables, we greet the guests, we describe the food. It's, it's not your typical, we don't have a food runner, you know, it's, we all do it together. we have the counter open kitchen. We, we. Dialogue with the, guests. We joke with them. we make it very friendly. So I think that people start noticing that kind of service. Uh, and the food is okay. So this is, one of the changes in service that I love in the last five or 10 years are. It let's, when we opened, if you were a fancy schmancy restaurant, everything was formal, everything was sir, everything was Mr. Mm-hmm. And, you didn't really have a, a real relationship with the guest. Yes. And I feel like the interactions now. You can go to a great restaurant and still have real interactions with the people who, who are, are waiting on you and, spending time with you. And to further your point, I mean the, the, what you do here with the, the chefs touching the table, or a few play, Dave Vien is doing that in New Jersey. Mm-hmm. With, everyone who works in that restaurant cooks and they switch, they're in the front house. One day they're in the back house another day. Okay. That sounds kind of maddening to me. Yeah. I don't think I wanna do that employee. Exactly. But it, the, the idea is, well, I mean, when we started in the business, it was still the era of the angry chef. Mm-hmm. I mean, the, the chef was a pot throwing maniac but the era of the Angry Chef is gone in most cases. Can we talk about your health? Yes. Yeah, we, a hundred percent. I think that's, I think that's, uh, pretty amazing. Uh, and I've read some things you've said about it before, but I, I'd love to what it's like to get a diagnosis like that. Mm-hmm. And I'll, I'll just lead in with one of the things Mark said to me when we first started the restaurant, we were 27 years old when we started our restaurants, and it was a couple of years later, and Mark, some of his, our friends were going skiing and mark's like, I can't go skiing if I break my leg. I can't make a living. I'm, I'm, dude, I actually remember I fell skiing and I hit my head really hard and I obviously got a concussion. I didn't know it at the time, and, but when I came home I was like, oh, thank goodness I hit my head instead of my leg. Yeah, so being in a very physical job that requires you to be here and do things Yes. Tell us what it was like getting that diagnosis and how you've dealt with it. Yeah. I mean, it was, uh. I mean, obviously it was, was a punch in the gut, right? Because I got diagnosed 2011, that time I was working at ame, um, which it was a restaurant inside the San Regis Hotel. Mm-hmm. San Francisco, but owned by somebody else. Um, and we had a Michelin, and it was, it was probably the, the most difficult. To hold that start because we use hotel employees. Mm-hmm. I had to deal with, with union employees management. Yeah. Union employees. So you be in the rush and somebody be like, well, I'm taking my 10 minute right now. Mm-hmm. And speaking of yelling, I'll lose it. Yeah. I'll start screaming. Open kitchen, you know, people like. Look at me and mortify. And then not only that, when I get really upset, I start cur cursing in Spanish. So he goes like Spanglish, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. I'm cus in English and the same word in Spanish. So just in case everybody can understand. Nice, nice. Yeah, we didn't wanna leave anybody out cursing subtitles. I, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So it was, it was very difficult going through all that stuff, working at that restaurant, keeping the Michelin, you know. Worried because, you know, you hear multiple sclerosis and automatically I was like, my life is done. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm done. I'm gonna be in a wheelchair, you know, I'm not gonna be able to do this stuff. Forget about having a family. I just got married. You know, I was thinking in my mind, my wife is gonna be dealing with me. She's gonna get tired. She and your mind start like, yeah. Going around in circles, you know, and. At the same time, multiple sclerosis and depression, they go hand to hand. Right? Yep. So I went into really, really dark time, really dark depression that, you know, I was at one point sitting on a couch in my apartment, my tiny apartments, San Francisco paying$3,000, you know? Mm-hmm. That's another thing. I, I can't, I need to work. Uh, and I was in my couch and. I showed the story with people and I'm like looking at a piece of paper and I'm, I'm making pros and cons of life. Like, I was like, what, what am I doing? Why am I like, if, if it's worth it or not to live, you know, and, and you, and at that point I was like, I gotta do something about it. And, and then that's when I started kind of like looking for help and, and you know, and seeing life differently. Uh, and it helped. That I, I found a good therapist and I mean, I saw him for many years and, you know, a good neurologist and all that stuff. Um, and then about two years after that, my, I went to a different restaurant. Spruce, we, we have Michelin as well, so the pressure's still there. Mm-hmm. Um, and I read an article about this doctor, Terry Walsh, I think is her name. Mm-hmm. A couple of books. She had multiple sclerosis. She was in a wheelchair. She started eating paleo. And that helper tremendously. So I decided to just start eating paleo. I did it for a whole year and my body was like. Automatically start healing itself. Oh, that's great. I notice the changes and, but eating paleo is very different, very difficult. Mm-hmm. Especially being a chef, so, so then I stick with no glue, no dairy, tell people what paleo is. So paleo, yeah. To keep it, to give it very simple. Basically they call it the caveman diet. So you will eat what caveman people will eat back in those days. Right. So no, no sugars, no salt, none of that stuff. Mm-hmm. No processed food is basically, you know. Vegetables, meat just cooked straight up, no seasoning, none, none of that stuff. and it was very hard, but I noticed how my body was reacting. Um, and then, you know, it was, it was a difficult diet to follow, so I just stick with gluten and dairy and I was, I was like. You know, I don't know, 2012. So now you're gluten and dairy free. Gluten, dairy free. Yeah. It's obviously working. It is working, yeah. Pretty. I thank you. I, I taste it, you know, I taste food. Right. It's not like a, and I don't go to a restaurant and be like, excuse me, I'm gluten. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just don't eat. Mm-hmm. Put it aside or whatever it might be. But, um, but you know, that, that helped me not only. It helped me realize that there's other things, right? And that's when it comes. There's other ways to run a kitchen or, or run a business. And I preach the same thing to my staff. You know, like, take care of yourself, take care of your body. Uh, because if, if you take care of your body, then then you mind is clear, then you're a better cook, you're a better husband, you're better friend. You know what it might be. And then we, we all win. I think one of the things too, I mean, let's face it, you, you, you sat there looking for a, a purpose in your life. One of a great purpose in my life is I spend every day trying to make other people's lives better. Yes. Right? Yeah. With, with our restaurants and our food and our service, and just making you have a great day. that's one of the main purposes of my life. Yeah. Well. It's hard to be depressed when you're, when you're doing that. Oh, yeah. And it's working. Yeah, yeah. Right. When it's, when it's working well, it's hard to be depressed for Yeah. For that. Right. It makes you feel good every day. Every day. I'm making that person feel good. I'm making that person feel good. I'm making, making that person have a memory that I know they're gonna have for the rest of their life. that's a substantial way to live your life. I, I have, uh, one of my closest friend, he's, you know, he always say I'm always broke, but he, you know, whenever, he's always buying stuff for himself, doing himself really well. Mm-hmm. Uh, he always say, if I don't treat myself VIP, who's gonna do it? Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Nope. Like Jennifer does it. Yeah. I don't have to, I don't have to treat myself. Patient takes care of he that, um, you know, in a good way. It's just, you know, eating healthy and. A great environment for your staff and you know, well, I wanna talk about something that we've held to the end of the interview because I've never heard of a chef doing this. Um, it's a totally unique thing you do with your kitchen. Um. What role does Dungeons and Dragons? Oh my God. You dork Chef. What? Tell us. I do. I don't play Dungeons and Dragon. I'm not allowed. I'm not allowed. So, so what I heard now is this a, I heard a rumor that Dungeons and Dragons is big with your staff. It, it is, it's huge. I, you have no idea how huge it is. So, uh, I call it the nerd meetings. Uhhuh, uh, they meet every Monday. They've been doing this for four years. And what I'm saying there is staff members that don't work with us anymore, but they still go to these nerve meetings. Uh, and this speaks, I'm coming Monday. Oh my God, I'll be here. And it speak for, you know, the environment that we have, the culture that we created. They meet every Monday in somebody's house. They cooked dinner first. They cooked dinner, and then they played. S and they take it serious. So I got invited one time and that was it. Uh, because I Are you, were you not a DG guy? I, no, I couldn't stop giggling. I mean, I was like, this, are you guys for real? If you are not in it, it looks ridiculous from the outside. Oh. I played a lot as a kid. I, dun and Dragons just came out when, when I was young, dark, when I was like 15. Okay. And I just, I, it was great. I just can't, but, but very dorky. No, I just very, very do. And I'll shoot. We have. Three of them. They're here right now. Uh, they're prepping in the back kitchen. They're the ones with the wizard hats on. They, well, they, so we sit down and one of the main guys, I don't know, I guess there's like the, you know, the mc, the dungeon master there. There you go. Evident Mark and I and I are dork. That was spectacular. And he's like, let's do a recap of last week. And one goes like, well. I, I did this and I did this magic. And I'm like, what? Do you guys, for real? Are you guys missing? No, they're not. It's not. No. And I started laughing. I couldn't, I couldn't stop. And then one of them looked at me very serious, uh, and he said, chef. If you can take this seriously. Unfortunately you can can't. I love it. You were rejected this. So I got kicked out and the other person that is not allowed is Casey, which he is our event chef. He's also a farmer. He has a farm in his house. He grows a lot of the vegetables we use in the restaurant. He's not allowed because he gave COVID to everybody one time. Oh. if you put d and D in, in that, you know they can't play because they have COVID, then you're not allowed. So I never, never forget was dd. No, no. They're very serious. Listen, if you've never thrown a 20 sided die, you're no friend of mine. I have to say. I think that just to bring it, I mean, I don't know what that means. I know we're here to talk to Orlando, but just I think that among the listeners who've just learned that both Mark and I played Dungeons and Dragons, uh, in high school, uh, no one is surprised that I played Dungeons. Everyone is surprised that football team, heavyweight wrestler, had to president of the fraternity council. The truth of the matter is, I had to quit because none of the guys who played were on sports. Yeah. So they all played when thing, when I was at practice, they were playing. So I, I had to stop. And the rest of the football team and the wrestling team made fun of you. There was no one else on the football. They had, they didn't make fun of me. They had no idea that that world even existed. I'm sure you were popular with the ladies talking about Dungeon and Dragon in high school. I kept the Dungeons Dragons on the down low. Yeah. Really? Really? Yes. You keep it. It's the d and d indeed. Yes. It's the dungeon and dragons on the down low. Alright, well Orlando, I wanna end this with just asking, are you having fun? Oh yeah. Yeah. A lot of fun. Yeah. What do you like the most about it? About this, about your life, about the restaurant. Your mic. Oh, oh, I thought it, it was you guys. I was like, oh, if you were in Michelin, it's the great interviews. What, what about the restaurant guy? That thing, that's how we end the show. That thing. Nothing. That's how we end show. What do you think? The restaurant guy? I, you know, I love it. I'm having such a good time, you know? Uh, I think. I think representing the south, you know, it's, it's just fantastic, this great city of Charleston, you know, it's putting, putting Charleston the map. Yeah. You know, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty amazing. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, when I, when I moved here, I didn't know much about the south. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, the South, they don't, you know, you don't hear much about it. Mm-hmm. But there's such a rich culture here and amazing ingredients and it's, I'm so happy and excited that we're showing the world what we can do. And it's, that's just to me being. An outsider. Right. Being, not being from, from the states know. Mm-hmm. The big island. I'm from the little island. Mm-hmm. Uh, but being here and, and just being part of it, and not only that, how welcoming everybody's been since day one. That to me just feels special. I think when you bring a city of Michelin star, uh, you are an automatic son of the city. You are, you are here by adopted. Yeah. Yeah. Forever. I'm, I'm expecting the key again, forever. I'm expecting the key of the city pretty soon. So. Well, um, I've enjoyed this, uh, we've both enjoyed this, uh, interview a lot. And I wanna thank you for taking the time in your beautiful restaurant to show to, uh, show us some hospitality. No, thank you guys. This has been amazing. Thank you for having me. thanks Orlando. This has been great. Been fun, this been great getting to know you so you can find out more about, uh, Orlando Pagon and Wild Common, uh, Michelin Stars and the South in general@restaurantguyspodcast.com. We'll be back in just a moment.

the-restaurant-guys_2_12-07-2025_124719: 49:37

That was an auspicious beginning, uh, interview to our visit to Charleston. Well, it was a auspicious beginning of our, visit to Charleston. Yeah. It was the first thing we did when we got to Charleston was, interview Orlando and it was interesting guy, fantastic restaurant, and a fantastic town. So we have a couple more episodes coming up where we interviewed other folks, uh, in Charleston. Charleston itself is a great town and of course, the Food and Wine Classic at Charleston. What a great festival. I mean, a Aspen gets all the, accolades. But we had a great time down there. And the nice thing about bringing the restaurant guys down there is so many of America's, top people come to Charleston. It's, uh, it's like shooting fish in a barrel mark. That's, that's one of the fun things about these festivals, right? Uh. All, all these people that you wanna talk to are just walking around. And the thing is, in that environment, uh, look, it's a little expensive to get a, a ticket there. Mm-hmm. Um, but when you're in there, they really did an amazing job limiting the crowds and you can actually have conversations with people. Yep. And it's not just standing on a line saying, here's your, gimme the next guy. So that was super fun. This is a great way to start it. I hope you enjoy listening to the upcoming episodes at, the Food and Wine Classic. Gonna be a great time. Uh, we will see you next week. I'm Francis Shot. I'm Mark Pascal. We are the restaurant guys. You can always find out more about us, like follow and subscribe@restaurantguyspodcast.com.