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The Relationship Blueprint: Unlock Your Power of Connection
Colleen is a student of Dr. Harville Hendrix and Dr. Helen LaKelly Hunt who created the Imago Theory and have brought this work to over 50 countries around the world. She is profoundly influenced by this belief shared by Dr. Harville Hendrix. He said, "We are born in relationship, wounded in relationship and healed in relationship."
What are you struggling with today? Colleen believes that almost any problem we have began with a broken or unhealed relationship. The anxiety or deep sadness we feel often began with unresolved issues in our relationships with our parents, partner, family or friends. When we have unmet needs we are programed to get those needs met. When we don't get what we need we protest by protecting ourselves. this often looks like defensive, critical, demanding behaviors. these behaviors are most often ineffective. As a result we may develop unhealthy relationship with food, sex, gambling our or a substance.
Colleen invites world renown relationship specialists from all over the world to help her guests explore their own relationships and see their problems through a relational lens. She will help us explore how to create intimacy to deepen our connections. Her listeners will gain insights to create a more joyful life.
Colleen is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the state of South Carolina, a certified, Advanced Imago Clinical therapist, a clinical instructor for the Imago International Trading Institute while maintaining her clinical practice in Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.
Thank you for joining Colleen today. Remember, don't let life happen to you. You can be the architect of your relationships. Join her next time on the Relationship Blueprint; Unlock Your Power of Connection.
Contact Colleen at colleen@hiltonheadislandcounseling.com for questions or to be a guest on the show!
The Relationship Blueprint: Unlock Your Power of Connection
Episode 12: Navigating War and Peace: Stories of Resilience and Connection in Israel
Peace advocate and imago therapist Orly Warhman shares her unique perspective on life in Israel amidst ongoing conflict. With a son serving in the military reserve and a daughter organizing a Woodstock Peace Festival, Orly's family embodies the duality of life in a war-torn region—balancing duty and the the desire for peace. Discover the profound personal narratives as Orly discusses the emotional toll of living under missile threats and how her family's efforts aim to bridge divides, fostering understanding between Israelis and Palestinians.
Our conversation dives into the transformative power of communication through the Communologue and Peace Project. Inspired by the Dalai Lama's principle of starting peace at home, this initiative offers a groundbreaking method for Israeli and Palestinian couples to engage in meaningful dialogue amid skepticism and political tension. Hear about the project's journey, the challenges it faces, and the triumphs it achieves by facilitating empathy and understanding, even among those with deeply rooted animosities. This powerful dialogue technique has also been utilized in other divided regions, showing that connection and communication can overcome division.
The episode also explores the resilience and courage of those navigating the psychological and emotional strains of conflict. Orly shares her insights on the cyclical nature of history and the hope for peaceful coexistence, drawing parallels with Ireland's journey towards peace. Amidst tales of trauma and division, there's an enduring message of hope and courage, emphasizing the importance of listening, understanding, and fostering dialogue as essential paths to healing and resolution. Join us as we unlock the power of connection and offer hope to those striving for a more harmonious world.
*****Important Clarification: What happened to Israel happened on October 7, 2023. Colleen wants to acknowledge and repair a mistake. She confused September with October in her interview. she wonders if she conflated the dates of September 11th in the US and October 7th in Israel. Regardless, this mistake while unintentional, may cause harm to the Israeli people. She deeply regrets her confusion.
Thank you for joining me today on the Relationship Blueprint. Remember, don't let life happen to you. You can be the architect of your relationships. So join me next time on the Relationship Blueprint; Unlock Your Power of Connection.
Contact Colleen at colleen@hiltonheadislandcounseling.com for questions or to be a guest on the show!
Welcome back everybody to the Relationship Blueprint. Unlock your Power of Connection. Today I have a special guest. My guest is Orly Warman. She is from Israel and she has agreed to talk about her experience as an Israeli living through this war. It's important to me to understand what it's like to be in the shoes of an Israeli, to be in the shoes of a Palestinian, to be in the Gaza, to be in Tel Aviv. I don't have a friend in Palestine to interview, but I do have a dear friend in Israel who is an imago therapist, a faculty member and a really amazing woman who has worked her entire life trying to promote peace in her home and around the world.
Speaker 1:We're going to focus today on our relationship with Israel, our understanding of what it might be to live in Israel during these most difficult times. So join me today in welcoming Orly Warman. So welcome, orly. I'm so excited that you're going to be on the Relationship Blueprint, where we unlock our power of connection, and I want to welcome you and tell our listeners a little bit more about you.
Speaker 1:I met Orly when I took an advanced course don't know what state we're in I think we might have been in California and I was so impressed with Orly's expertise. She's licensed to be a sex therapist as well as an Imago therapist and has so many other qualifications, and I am really honored to have her here with us today. Today, we're going to not only really talk about really Imago. Today's focus is really for me and for our listeners to understand more about what it's been like since September 7th 2023. And Orly was gracious enough to indulge me and come on my podcast. So thank you, orly, and would you like to say anything more about you before we get started with questions that you'd like my listeners to know about you?
Speaker 2:Well, I am a mother to two children. My son is 32 and he is married and has a small child two years old, and it's relevant also to our topic because he's been in the military reserve for quite a number of months, leaving his wife to take care of the little boy Baby was at the time, little boy baby was at the time. And I also have a daughter who is she is 27, and she is a little bit, I would say, lives the life of a hippie, also studying Chinese medicine and Shiatsu. And she's also connected to our topic because she is immersed in organizing a Woodstock Peace Festival here In the middle of all that work. That is what actually the alternative community is organizing.
Speaker 1:So can you tell us more about what you mean by an alternative community.
Speaker 2:It's hard to say All the people who live like hippies and who are. This is a big group of very, very talented people. Many of them are musicians and artists and you name it Like, for example, just my daughter. She knows how to build in wood, she designed a pergola in our house, she does fireworks for a living fire, acrobatics with fire, and she plays like a DJ and she plays the guitar. So I would say that all these alternative communities, people who live a little bit outside the mainstream, and at the beginning of the war they were a little bit paralyzed and now they're doing something and they managed to get quite a number of people in this time where people have stopped believing in peace. So it's very important.
Speaker 1:So their initiative is peace. Is that right, Orly, when you say they live like hippies? But what you're really saying is that they are trying to promote an alternative to what's going on right now. Is that correct? Did I get?
Speaker 2:you. They only get secondhand clothes or get food from the market when the market are closing, and take care of the earth, and in that way they are hippies, okay.
Speaker 1:So that's interesting.
Speaker 2:So the definition is they are trying also sorry, I'm just saying they're also trying to do something different in this situation that we are in.
Speaker 1:And so this event, the Woodstock that she's planning. Is there a website or anything where our listeners might be able to go and learn more? Can you talk?
Speaker 2:about that? Absolutely. I can send you the publication with the website and your listeners can go in and donate for them. They're hungry for more donations so they could make the tickets more affordable and more people could come.
Speaker 1:The Woodstock is really meant to gather like-minded people and be able to have music and a lovely time, but, more importantly, to share this common theme that they have about what they want for Israel.
Speaker 2:Right, Absolutely both Many, many, many workshops. It's for three days. So many workshops as well All kinds.
Speaker 1:So I love this idea of and are they mostly young people or is it all ages?
Speaker 2:I tell myself, mostly young people and their parents, but we will see. And they managed to mobilize some singers, some famous ones, to come to this, and so it will be interesting to see what will come out of it to come to this, and so it will be interesting to see what will come out of it. But the idea is, I think, that what at least my daughter would like is for a movement to come out of this. There would be a peace movement coming out of this gathering.
Speaker 1:Does this peace movement see the idea of a two-state solution, or how do they envision that?
Speaker 2:should, I know, I don't know, we'll see what they come up with. If they come up with solutions, I think that the main idea is to talk, to have communication, to, to realize that there are two people here, yeah and to listen to them and to, I tell myself, to lower the levels of demonization on both parts and you name it. I think that's before they come with any solutions that seem now like they are, you know, not even as far from here to the United States, solutions to this really terrible situation.
Speaker 1:So, orly, I imagine you must, as a mother, feel a great I don't know, I'm imagining this, it's my story but a lot of worry for her that the three days that they do this because they'll be at a concert, is that a concern for you? Say that again, when this group gathers this Woodstock that your daughter is planning, and with such good intentions, I guess what I wonder as a mom, what I would wonder as a mom, is will she be safe there? Will all the participants be safe? Because it's an outdoor event and what happened at the concert that was so devastating.
Speaker 2:That's right, but I'm not worried about this because they are doing it either in the Negev or the desert, so in a safe place. That's why it's so important to donate to them, because they need to pay quite a lot of money for the safety processes. So this is what I'm worried about. What I'm worried about is that, as a young person, she will be disappointed.
Speaker 1:So, as a mother, you want her to have these big dreams and to really follow her heart, but then the other side of that could be disappointment.
Speaker 2:Yes, because people here are. I don't think they're. I think most people here are not ready for this kind of thing yet, I see, and especially not when the war is still going on. Yeah, I worry this is my worry, not anything else and also I hope very much that what she wants will happen and that the movement will come out of it, even a small movement that maybe it would keep her here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I'm reminded of. You know, and you can tell our listeners more about this, but I'm reminded of when President-elect Trump won in 2016 in the US and we were in California and boy, there was just I'm not even sure if it was I was in your class this time but there was sort of this assumption, when we all walked into whatever class we were in, that everybody was sad that Trump won and that somehow all therapists should be against Trump, and then there was such a different variety of reactions because everybody is from all over the world at our conferences and I remember you leading a communal. Will you tell a little bit more about that and how you began your work in Israel with communal logs?
Speaker 2:Gladly Wow, that's a long time ago. Communal logs gladly wow, that's a long time ago. Well, it was at the, I think around 2000, let's say that. Uh, so I think many things were happening together, but the main, uh, the catalyst catalysato, you say in english, catalyst, yes, catalyst, yes was the was the twin tower, 9-11. 9-11, yeah, after 9-11, there was a wish in the Imago to do something to save the world. So that was to do something good in this world and also, in a very interesting serpendipity, there was also in the imago world. At the time, there were two imago organizations that were competing and so there was a wish to bridge these, uh, all this animosity and all the conflicts and make one big and strong and thriving organization. So this, together with the 9-11, so this was, I think, the origin and the roots of what we call the Communologue and the Peace Project. So there was, this committee was born, which we called ourselves the Peace Project, and we started to build this process that we called Communologue from community and dialogue.
Speaker 1:You never knew where that began. Community and dialogue. It makes sense. So, instead of dialogue with, you and I are having well, we're not having a formal dialogue, but we are dialoguing, right. Then you took the idea of the dialogue with the concept of community, and then the communologue was created yes, by you.
Speaker 2:No, it was not me alone, it was this committee that was this project okay, project. And uh, we were. We started to meet every week, which we still do until so, this just many years. We started to meet every Monday at the time. Now it's moved to Tuesday. They blame me for this, probably true.
Speaker 2:So we started to meet and build this process, which we did not take only from Imago, but Imago was certainly a base for it, but we took also from other dialogical processes that were there at the time. And then we started to think where we could test it. And, parallel to this, the minute I was hooked into this idea, the minute I was hooked into this idea, I wanted to make sure I make use of this process in my country, in my situation, in our situation, and at the time it was a better time than now. So we had this, but even then we were aware of the high level of animosity and hard feelings between the Israelis and the Palestinians. So we had this, I think, genius idea of combining the Imago Couples Workshop that creates safety and closeness between couples and the Communologue that creates safety and closeness between the participants, safety and closeness between the participants.
Speaker 2:And we were thinking, too, that our project would include both, meaning we would look for Israeli couples and Palestinian couples who are interested to participate in some kind of a project. That will first go into the couples workshop. That was actually built on the Dalai Lama's words at the time that for making peace you should start with your own home. The idea was to start there and then to go into this communologue that will talk about. What we promised our members was that we will talk about all the political situation.
Speaker 1:Can I just stop you right there for a second, Because what you're saying feels so amazing to me. So your model was really based on the Dalai Lama's principles that you know. You really have to start the peace part at home and create that safety with communication with your family and then with that, then you moved on to be able to try to create that, the idea of applying that same safety and communication with your community. But, like everybody's ideas were invited, it wasn't like we can't talk to Uncle John about Donald Trump or we can't talk to Aunt Mary about the Gaza, you know. So you're saying that all ideas were accepted.
Speaker 2:I did not say it yet, but I was going to.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so sorry, ok, I'm jumping. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:I'm so interested in this you are jumping, because I just said that that was the idea that we will form this. We were thinking that the communologue alone would not be enough when there is so much emotions, right? So that's why we thought first we'll have the couples work on the closeness and feeling safe, then we take them to this big group and talk about the issues and where all the exactly as you said all opinions would be welcomed and appreciated. And even if it's a Trump and a Biden meaning at the time, I think that we did not know what will happen, because we heard from people who were engaged in peace talks was that and I'm not talking about political peace talks, but you know all kinds of organizations who try to put together Palestinians and Israelis is what we heard was that it was okay when you talked about your children, your work, all kinds of things like this it worked perfectly.
Speaker 2:But the minute you started to talk about the problem and the conflict, everything blew up. So we were hoping that we will find a way, a method, to talk about all these things and actually this is, I think, where we succeeded big time, because the project that we ran for a number of years, this we managed to do, we managed to talk about everything and to even in a very, sometimes very touchy and very complex situations in time, you know, because these meetings were very difficult to organize and so they were organized a long time in advance and we could not expect what will happen in this crazy Middle East. So sometimes our meetings were in a very, very sensitive times and we managed actually to talk about everything. So actually, if this project proved something is that you can talk to your enemies. You could, you can do that Problem. I think we probably could have solved everything between ourselves.
Speaker 1:And these were all people. They were different. It wasn't like you had. In America we have groups like liberal ladies of the low country. Of course we're all going to be an echo chamber for each other, right, but you're talking about in this group you had diversity of opinions and highly charged emotions around the topics. After that you feel like if you had the power that this group could have solved the problems because they really listened to one another and could hear their perspective and see it through their eyes. Did I get you?
Speaker 2:You did, you did. It's much more complex than that, of course. Sure, at the time we had the illusion we might be able to contribute to solving the problem, so we even invited experts on things that we didn't know enough, we felt we didn't know enough about. I really believe we could have. The problem is not that you cannot, it's a problem of this project, because the palestinians said that, uh, in the, in their environment, and also some of them were thinking the same that if they talk to us, that means they give our government the you know, the legitimacy to do what it's doing. So actually, there was a part of them that did not want to talk to us, yeah, sure, and did not want to get close to us, and I get that. But anyway, the big dreams we had did not succeed. We did not succeed. I think you were successful Small dream we did succeed. And my daughter and my son who were involved, and I knew that we were talking to Palestinians and these were our friends, I think that's more than enough.
Speaker 1:So it makes so much sense that your daughter is working so hard on this peace project not unlike her mother, because she grew up with. The Palestinians can be our friends. The peace was more important than war. And then your son, on the other hand, is serving in the military.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, nobody asks us here. This is mandatory.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think America doesn't know about that. Can you talk a little bit about that, because I think a lot of Americans do not know what that means to be an Israeli citizen and how that works with the military? Will you briefly describe what happens at certain ages?
Speaker 2:Yes, when you come, you finish high school at the age of 18, you have the law says you have to draft to the army, both boys and girls. Girls for two years, boys for three years. If you're an officer this becomes longer and this is mandatory. If you say you are a peace person, you go to jail. So there is nothing you can do about it, unless you are a religious girl. Then you can say you're a religious girl and you can either not go to the army or do something instead. But basically we all were in the army, including me, my husband for sure, and also my son and my daughter. Everybody was in the army. Also because Israel needs people in the army. So they call the men and the women also depends what they do the women to the military reserve, meaning that a number of years until you are 40 or so. You go back to the army a few weeks a year, I see, to help this whole organism. It's a very big organization, the army.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for explaining that and I think that was just important to pause and kind of learn more about that. I wanted to go back to your communologue because in our country, you know, there's great divisiveness and I remember you facilitating this communologue and I remember it was Wendy was there, it was, there was so much emotion and afterwards everyone I don't think everybody was like in agreement, but there was the tension just went and then there were two people, as I remember, that were still really struggling and then I think it was Wendy that had a dialogue. People agreed to have that dialogue in front of the faculty and they did and they left that stage hugging and it just was such a different experience than it would have been without those interventions from such amazing professionals that could help us all sort of process our individual emotions about what happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and one of the many, many emotional and really life-changing communologue experiences was in another Imago conference. That was in Atlanta some years ago where we held a communologue talking about racism and that was actually fantastic. I think all the Afro-Americans that were present in the conference came to that meeting and that was on the same day that Obama was elected. It was on the same day that the elections were going. So there was a lot of uh, excitement in the room, but also a lot, a lot of emotions and tears.
Speaker 2:And people came, some imago people who are, uh, from the south came and talked and and, uh, it was this magic of this communologue that if you are willing to come with an open heart and listen and do something with your reactivity and park it somewhere behind your back, and so, if this goes long enough because the communologue needs it, cannot be a communologue of uh 10 minutes, yeah, until this magic is built. It's like a spiral that is going deep and also communologue has three rounds, so it's going deeper and deeper and and in the end you feel closer, even if you didn't want to at the beginning. So it's doing its job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. There's an organization in the United States now it's been around for a while called the Braver Angels. Have you ever heard of it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm well aware of it because of one, Dorsey Cartwright, who is also in the Peace Project, is also in this organization. So we've been following them and the interchange between their ideas and Communalogue.
Speaker 1:And I think it's so interesting that Harville and Helen have met with the UN and that they're very interested in the process of a communologue and what this can mean. So I just I want our listeners to understand that it's so powerful, this experience, and that I'm imagining what it would be like to have a communologue in each small town in America about the issues that we have and, if you were allowed, you know in in Israel and the Gaza, like what, what that could look like for all of us. It's such a your peace project has such a an amazing mission and it must sometimes be overwhelming to have such a mission Interesting remark.
Speaker 2:Well, I could just say that it's interesting how to refer to that. I think that at the beginning, after October, we were all I think we were all traumatized in one way or another.
Speaker 1:You were right. I mean, it was traumatic.
Speaker 2:Some of it is still there, and at that point I don't think I wanted to dialogue or commune with anyone. However, I have an imago facilitator Arab friend who I've done some of my projects with and I'm close to, so we did talk to each other and I think now I might be more ready. I did train in the middle of this year. I trained some communologue leaders, but they are not interested in talking with the Palestinians. But they are not interested in talking with the Palestinians but about talking to the people inside Israel, because Israel is also very divided and polarized, and so I think that this is also a mission.
Speaker 1:And are they not interested in talking to the Palestinians because of something you said earlier, like if they do it, they're betraying their country or their people, and that you would be betraying your country? Is that accurate?
Speaker 2:First of all, the Palestinians depends what you call Palestinian Because the Arabs in Israel. They call themselves which I agree Palestinians who live in Israel. With these people I don't think there's any problem to talk to. But to talk to the Palestinians in Gaza it's impossible. We cannot go there, they cannot come here. It could be on Zoom, could be. I really think that we should, but in the middle of the war, I think our autonomic nervous system is not there. It's in the place of fight or flight. Yes, yes, I think the prefrontal cortex is dead. It's dark. You're not thinking.
Speaker 1:It's what we say about couples, right? If your reptile is on fire and you're so mad, how can you dialogue? How can you? You have to get a little calmer right in your reactivity, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, just like an analogy, I would say first, let's get this war over with yeah To finish this war and get these hostages back home.
Speaker 2:Because you have to understand I'm not talking about the Hamas now, I'm talking about us in Israel that for us, these people still there, it's a kind of breaking the contract we have with our country that it will save us whatever happens to us. So for some of us here, this is something, and for some of us it's unbearable, not only because they're miserable and they should really and they're dying there and they should come back, but also the fear that if something will happen to us or to the people dear to us, this country, our own country, will do nothing to get us out of there. So people are afraid, and people are afraid of the Hamas. They are afraid of this because the Hamas and Iran they say they want to kill us. They're not saying we want to talk to you. So I think that when people are afraid, your ability to get them to talk is limited. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I think perhaps a better way to use my own energy is to use it inside my own country.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, hostages should be sacrificed, and that we should not stop the war there in Gaza, because if we stop it, hamas will regain its power and attack us again, which is a possibility, and this is hard for me, it's emotional also from my part. So that means when you are leading a communologue, you have to come relatively neutral.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And that is also the reason why in our first around 2000, and I think it was when we had our first meeting in Istanbul, we chose a neutral place At the time it was, and we brought two people from the States who are not Jewish to help, Interesting Meaning that, trying to keep a neutral position and taking care of the fear that me and my Palestinian counterpart there was one, a professor that I worked with that we will not get caught in this because we are so emotionally involved.
Speaker 1:That was a really good way to protect the group right by having someone that could be neutral because they really weren't so deeply involved. Yeah, I love that. You know you're bringing up some questions that I have about you know what? September 7th? Since then, how has your life you've told me about your children? How has your daily life, your practice, your teaching, how have you been affected?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, gladly enough, very glad I don't have any family members who were murdered or raped or kidnapped, so that's a miracle. So that's the first thing. The second miracle is that the Hezbollah and the Hamas that were shooting at us for some reason they don't shoot very much where I live. That means that I don't run to the shelter. We don't have a shelter in our house, so if there is an attack of missiles, we run to the neighbors. Now, this in itself has been a really interesting experience. We got closer to these neighbors as a result of this, but it's a little bit uncomfortable. So every time there is a missile attack, gideon and I my husband and I we find ourselves in a debate whether to go to the shelter or do nothing, because it's very often in the middle of the night, so it's not very nice. So we were fortunate that there were not so many of this For my son, where they live every day until now that they more or less there is a ceasefire now with Lebanon and Hezbollah, it could be every day that they would have to run.
Speaker 2:They also don't have a shelter, so they run with the baby to the to the shelter. And the last time I was there take. I take care of him once a week. So I'm with him in the carriage outside in the road, in the street, and I get a call from my daughter-in-law. She tells me do you hear a siren? I say no. She says well, I think it's coming, because she heard that it's in another place. And she says do you know where the shelter is? Because they changed shelters. I said no, and so this is so realistic.
Speaker 2:I went with the carriage and the baby to find out where the shelter is and then I told myself I would never, ever make it in time. I would have to get him out of the shelter. He's heavy like hell. Run to this, it's a step thing. I will fall down with him. I will never do that. So that was very scary. So that's just imagining that everyday life. This is not talking about my practice yet. I will in a second. But that's the everyday life that you have to take care of. Everywhere you go there is a shelter. If you take the baby for sure, I mean you can say I'm an adult, my life, but the baby you're responsible for, and some places are worse than others, like one time I was in a cab in the middle of the road then starts this missile attack and you have to stop the car, get out of the car, lie on the ground, and this you do with a taxi driver. So this is so realistic.
Speaker 1:I won't speak for Americans, I can speak for myself. But you know, I think, like so many things, you know, watching it on TV, you know you're so desensitized with this 24 hour news cycle and all the things that are happening all over the world and when I think about Israel and I've I've read your letters to our faculty and you know it's a it's just hard. It's hard to even grasp how you're getting through and working and teaching and babysitting. You know, I babysit my grandchildren and I never have to think about that, I never have to think about missiles, I never have to think about a shelter. I really want to say I somehow get this, but I don't think I'm capable of it. I mean, I can listen to you and empathize, but wow, this is huge.
Speaker 2:That's a real wow. I think that we are living like this for more than a year and this is I think that it's really hard to grasp. And when I hear from my friends in America that what you see on television is only what the Gaza people are suffering, and I tell myself, okay, I'm acknowledging that as well, but I'm just. You asked me about my life, so I would add to this that Israel is a small country. So, even though we were not personally closely affected, many of my friends are and many of my family have other members that were affected. This is not far. It's close. That's one thing.
Speaker 2:Second thing is that right from the beginning of the October 7th, I work in a private practice. I volunteered. I work in a private practice. I volunteered. I said I'm willing to work with, first of all, with people who lost their loved ones and also with other people who have anxiety, who have all kinds of things that I can help. So I wrote it also on Facebook, but also I contacted some agencies that I knew that will need help.
Speaker 2:The first thing I brought this into my clinic. The horror, the loss, the grief, all of that was in my clinic, apart from all the rest. And I had to help people like, for example, as you say, stop listening to the news all day long or you will never get over your anxiety and you will never be able to sleep, and all kinds of things. Just, you know, simple help and more difficult situations.
Speaker 2:And then what happened was that all the couples that I worked with, all the young couples, all of the husbands, were drafted. So I had to do something I never did before, which is to decide to see the women alone if they wanted to, if they needed help, and then to see them when they come home. And they came home, some of them so traumatized, you know, even before PTSD, traumatized, you know, even before PTSD, even before just and the difference in expectations between these men who were in the army, wanting home to come and get warmth and touch and sex, and you name it, and the women only wanting to get rid of doing all the work at home and somebody to help them. So all of this, so the war just came into the door. So, even if I did not have a missile on my door, the war was in the door.
Speaker 1:Wow, the war came in the door. There's something really powerful about that. It may be the title of this episode. We can talk about that, because that is so profound. You know, I think about your home being the safe zone, your clinic, and then it's just not. And then you're just there helping other people, even though you're struggling yourself. You're right.
Speaker 2:And the first thing is that I have to tell my clients that I don't have a shelter. Let's start with this. I tell them look, when there is a siren, an alarm, we run to the neighbors and I would have to work something with them because I'm responsible for them. What do they want to do? And I have glass windows in my clinic. So when you said not safe, it's literally not safe.
Speaker 1:Well, you brought up something about when you talk to your American friends that they really only show the suffering in Gaza. I wanted to know your opinion about how you think the media is representing Israel or the conflict you know, and what your thoughts are about that.
Speaker 2:What a question. I think the media here does not show us what's happening in gaza, and the media there they are meaning outside of israel is not showing what's happening here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's a kind of a really an absurd situation yeah, I feel misunderstood really as a country of israel when amer America has had its share of protests, but how we are sometimes, I think, in America, pulled in both directions and don't really have a sense of who's right, who's wrong, not completely understanding the complexities of the Middle East and it's so common, no complex, so complex and so, ideally, you know, what would you like to see the international community actually see? If we were watching a video on television from the media about what Israel is going through, what would we see?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that, first of all, it's an interesting question. I'm thinking for a moment yeah, take your time. First of all, to start with 7th of October, because that was, and still is, such a shock, such a shock, and people were, whole families were, you know, annihilated, murdered, women raped there's so much evidence about that this party, that was all for them. So many people 400, I think, were around that number were murdered and the other ones are traumatized until now, showing their friends being murdered and raped, and you name it. So I think that this I don't want to shock our listeners, I'm just saying, even though history did not start with this, right, let's say, this episode, this part in time, started with. This is that the people who were murdered and brutally put on fire and all of that, were the people who were fighting for peace. So this is what is also very, very sad. So now we have less people fighting for peace. So I think the movie should start with this.
Speaker 2:And then, what should a country do when such an attack is on her borders? I don't think any other country would have allowed this kind of thing to go without something. That would be the, you know response. So then israel attacked back and these hamas people, they live in gaza. So israel attacked in gaza. Now I think that this is the understanding is that the Hamas people have I don't know how you call it penetrated into every house. Who are soldiers is that every house they went into, they found books and propaganda and ammunition, and they would put this ammunition under the baby's crib or tunnels or every house.
Speaker 2:Now I tell myself, because I'm a peace person, that they made them do it, meaning Hamas scares them into doing this, and that among them there are people who do not want to do that, but they are scared for their lives. But I ask myself what can you do in a kind of a situation like this? So I think that, and also I believe that Israel cannot afford having them come back and do the same thing again. So this is what is, I think, started to happen not afford having them come back and do the same thing again. So this is what is, I think, started to happen. Now I do think that the civilian population in Gaza is miserable. I feel so sad for them, for women and children being evacuated from their homes. I don't think any Israeli kills them on purpose or wants to kill them. So I don't think this is the same equal. I think that we do not want to kill them, but we want to get rid of the Hamas people.
Speaker 1:Right when you said Hamas has penetrated the Gaza and that you believe that the people that are, you know, innocent there. There may be the ammunition under their baby's bed and stuff, but what other choice would they have? And what I hear from you is this great empathy for the people who are really suffering, starving all of the things that we see on TV all the time Probably not starving, but they're not eating very much. Well, in the media that we see here, there's a crisis of starvation. That's what we're seeing in the media in Gaza.
Speaker 1:Not what I hear, which makes me wonder who tells the truth here. Yeah, I mean, what is the truth? That was another fascinating thing about interviewing you. You know how much information and we all know that we're living in a world of disinformation anyway, like what we used to trust about the news is not really what we can do now in all sources, and so I think that's such an important question for us, you know, and people internationally, to really begin asking what is the truth and how do we know it's the truth, or what are we being fed? What is the truth about these people?
Speaker 2:I'm not the one to answer this question. The only thing is I hope that at least I believe so. Let's say, I believe that, first of all, I believe war is horrible and people do awful things in war, but again, I don't believe that the Israeli army is doing something against the civil population. Actually, I hear the opposite. Even the dogs they find there, they bring here so that they would not be without food or without this. And I hear that people from the army give the population water. So I do not think that this has done anything to the civil population. I don't think it's done on purpose. That's my own belief. That's my own belief.
Speaker 1:Sure, Well, that really is your own belief right, yes, and that's.
Speaker 2:I'm really putting a marker underneath because this is my belief.
Speaker 1:Is it safe for you to express your beliefs in Israel?
Speaker 2:Not for much longer, but at the moment, probably, yes, we demonstrate against this government every week, every week, more than a year, two years now. Every Saturday evening we go and demonstrate so and we want to stop the war. So at the moment nothing will happen to me. So whether some clients will say they don't want to come to me, maybe.
Speaker 1:I guess that exists here too, like if people know your religious orientation or sexual orientation, or if you're in recovery, people may not come to you. But this is so different, this is so different. I guess I'm curious about how do you find your hope right now? I do hear hope in your voice. Tell me about that. Well, most of the time it's despair, like in the polyvagal theory.
Speaker 2:I go down that ladder all the time, from really, from feeling a little bit better and then to fight or flight, and then to really the Flight or flight, and then to really the freeze, which I do nothing sometimes or I watch too much news or despair because I do think that the protest movement is not succeeding and we have a really crazy government awful government, but you know, as you talked about Trump, it's the same. There are many people and they're not all stupid who think that this is a good government and that they are hoping for Trump to be the president, to I don't know exactly do what. So I'm very scared. I think one thing that the hope comes from is that I think that, knowing history, things go in waves. Yeah, so, after all this bad, something good. Maybe it might happen, I tell myself. I tell myself, maybe, if we survive until the elections, maybe we get someone else which is a very little hope there to get rid of this Netanyahu. So maybe and my hope comes because I think that Israelis are good people and I see that how they really mobilize themselves to help everyone in need and so much time they're willing to volunteer and give and do. So I tell myself this could be used, that this is a good part of humanity.
Speaker 2:A friend of mine, an imago therapist from Austria, she told me the other day that her boyfriend is a biologist and he said, to tell her to remember that evolution-wise we are an aggression, aggressive species, and I think that is true. So, in some ways, and what helps me is not to think about us and them in any way, but just believe anyone has this capacity to be so cruel and horrible and that, but just believe anyone has this capacity to be so cruel and horrible and that therefore, we should talk to these horrible people. I would not let them kill me. So if they start to kill me, I will kill them. So I will not let them kill me, but I would offer to talk to them and find some way. You know again maybe this will help your listeners also that my husband always gives the example of Ireland.
Speaker 2:They've been fighting for years, hating each other. Now, eventually, they still hate each other or they don't like each other, but they decided not to kill each other. So I tell myself, maybe we could come to this kind of agreement. We don't have to like each other, but maybe stop killing each other would be a better solution for everyone involved.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting analogy, ireland.
Speaker 2:I happen to know more about Irish history than I really know about the Middle East, and so I can really see that connection you're making for us to be able to live A small country surrounded by Arab countries, then in order to live here, we have to live in peace with these countries, and I think that we don't even have an army to hold against all these countries, so we better find a better solution.
Speaker 1:So I know we're coming to an end in our time and I could ask you a million more questions. This has been so interesting to me and I'm so grateful for your honesty, because these things are not easy to talk about. I'm saying that, I'm listening to you, my heart hurts but I don't really know Right. I mean can't wrap my arms around what you're going through right now and I want to, and I want to give you a big hug, what you're going through right now, and I want to and I want to give you a big hug. Some people have asked the question. You know in America, where we're safe. You know why don't they just leave the Israelis that aren't happy with Netanyahu, and why can't they just leave and then they could be safe? What would you tell those people? Leave?
Speaker 2:where exactly? That's what I would say to these people. First of all, some are leaving, but it's not that the world is opening. The United States is opening its borders for people who are coming now.
Speaker 2:And also there is what happened as a result of this war that all the anti-Semitism that was underground is now underground. So people who are going to other places will meet this anti-Semitism and will have to somehow try to live with this. So it's not so easy to live. And also some people think that it's not patriotic to live when the boat is sinking, that you should find some way to save this country and this is a struggle also in my own family, in my extended family, for sure, and also in the small family Whether to. If you cannot stand what's happening here, should we go somewhere else? And even if there is anti-Semitism, where would we go? You know, if you don't have a foreign passport, you cannot go anywhere. So let's say but let's say, where would we go and what should we do about this country? Should we just leave it to the fundamentalists and the fascists? But it's the same what I hear from my American friends that some of them want to leave America and go to Canada.
Speaker 1:I think this point that you just brought up about the anti-Semitism thinking it was underground, but that everything that has happened has just really brought it all to the surface. And so I can see that, with my Israeli friends that live in this country and my Jewish friends, and I'm just imagining what that would be like to come here and then, after leaving your home country, coming to a place that was unfriendly to you because you're Israeli, like it's mind boggling. Like it's mind boggling. It's mind boggling. As you said, people aren't opening their borders and welcoming people in to keep them safe either, and so where would that safe place be to go? So is there anything you would like to end with before we say goodbye today? You've given us so much today, worley, and I'm profoundly touched to do this with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I think you did something very big, which is to listen and to hear. When I think about it, it's just in a nutshell what I spoke about, because there are many more facets and aspects to this complicated way of living here.
Speaker 1:Yes, and your beautiful smile as you're telling of this tragedy, and I know that that's your smile, I know that's you, but I'm just thinking about the courage and the hopefulness that you still have and that you've passed on this beautiful idea of peace in the next generation. And I mean, what other legacy could we leave than to give our children that viewpoint?
Speaker 2:You are absolutely right. That's why I am so proud that I've managed to do at least this right. Yes, you've done so much, right.
Speaker 1:You've done so much for the Imago community, you've done so much for your community in Israel. You're contributing to the world and I mean I don't know how many people get to leave this earth and say that and I think you're doing it in such adversity that it's really beyond anything I can dream of, because it's pretty easy to help people when I feel safe. That's a strong sentence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's something we talk about here. And how can you help other people when you are yourself in a turmoil or traumatized yourself? It's all we get to have meetings within our own communities to talk about this and to get support.
Speaker 1:Can we give more support. Is there something that would be meaningful? I know that the Woodstock is something that I'm going to put on the podcast site so that people can contribute and maybe even go to the link and just learn more about it themselves if they choose to, because that seems like a very, very small thing to donate to that movement and give people that are suffering a place to talk safely about peace and listen to music and dance and have a break from all of this war and tragedy. And that seems like a small, very small way to give to your country and to our friends there. You're my friend and I'd like to be a part of that, so is there anything else that you can imagine that would be helpful?
Speaker 2:I think what you did is helpful to you know. Stretch your hand and ask how are we doing here? And from time to time I think this is helping. At the beginning of the war, my friends in a few places, mostly in the States, they asked me what do I want? What can make me feel better? Now, I did not know at the beginning and I felt so bad and they sent me these funny packages and really I have, you know, pet love.
Speaker 1:Yes, I don't know her personally, but I know of her.
Speaker 2:A great therapist, teacher, writer, and she's been a good friend of mine for many years, and so she mobilized all her friends and they sent me a big box with all kinds of nonsense which was really. That was really. I think it was kind of lifting my mood, so that was a very nice idea, kind of lifting my mood, so that was a very nice idea. And another friend of mine, teresa Hunt, she sent me a whole it was like this a whole box of all her scarves, cleaned and ironed, and the idea was to donate it to the people who lost their homes. And I managed to do that.
Speaker 2:I added my scarves, so it was even a bigger one, and I managed to give it to members to a kibbutz that they moved to another place. They evacuated them to another place and we donated the whole thing to them. They were so happy with this, so now they don't need this anymore. A year has gone by, but at the time that was just, you know, small ideas of how I think the Woodstock idea is a very good one, and just to let us know that somebody somewhere thinks about us, cares about what's going on here and doesn't care whether who's right and who's wrong, just cares about suffering, and that's not so pleasant to live here these days.
Speaker 1:Well, I wanted our listeners to really have an up-close view of the tragedy of this war and the impact on the Israeli people and the people within the country who want peace like you so desperately and don't have any way to fight back. Or, even though you protest every Saturday, you know that you don't have any power to change the leadership and that not having any agency in that has to be so frustrating. And so, especially when you said that the Gaza is more highlighted in our media than what the Israelis are experiencing. So I think it's really important for us to not judge from afar and believe everything that we see on TV and, just as you said, really not care so much about sides but the people that are all suffering.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I hope that we accomplish that today, Orly I really do.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it looks like it. I think I tried. I also think it's hard to say that it's not my responsibility Wherever I go, I think that it's not my responsibility to show the two sides Right. But I do want to acknowledge, I do want, at the end of this meeting, to acknowledge that I, every day I live with this, that on the other side there and it's so close, it's so close it's not a big country, it's so close, an hour ride from here that people are suffering and this war is a horrible business, that hopefully there would be somewhere, some way to stop that war.
Speaker 1:Orly, I'm going to ask you to stay on after I stop the recording, but I want to say goodbye to our listeners and I want to thank Orly Worman. You can find her. What is your website? It's Warman.
Speaker 2:It's Orly Warman. It's in English. It's written W-A-H-R-M, but it's a German man. My father came from Germany, so it's Warman. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant. I'm glad you corrected me. Thank you, a war man.
Speaker 2:In English sounds like a war man.
Speaker 1:It does sound like that. I want to have it spelled on the notes and the summary correctly, because I want people to be able to Google you and find out more about you and the Peace Project. So all of those things I'm sure you'll make available to me. Thank you again, and I say thank you to anyone who is listening to this podcast.
Speaker 1:I know it's not necessarily about couples or relationships with family or children or your relationships at work or all the places where we struggle. You know, in my mind I can't see any problem anymore. That's without a relationship lens. Whether I'm having a problem with money, it's my relationship with money, my problems with who knows like weight or eating or drinking or spending. You know there's a lens of relationship with all of those things. So it's hard to see things any other way.
Speaker 1:But what I hope you really hear today is our relationship with the world and how much we don't know about what other people are going through and what we can do to somehow, in a small way, improve those relationships and be part of what Orly has done in her legacy. That we see exemplified in your children, and specifically your daughter, heading up this huge project to support peace, and I think that's a gift, and we can all use some hope right now. We can all use some motivation to do something that's not for ourselves, but for others. So anyway, thanks again, listeners, and I'll see you next time on the Blueprint Unlocking your Power of Connection and I certainly connected with you today, Orly? Do you want to say anything else before we go?
Speaker 2:Just thank you. Thank you for being here and for listening.
