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The Relationship Blueprint: Unlock Your Power of Connection
Colleen is a student of Dr. Harville Hendrix and Dr. Helen LaKelly Hunt who created the Imago Theory and have brought this work to over 50 countries around the world. She is profoundly influenced by this belief shared by Dr. Harville Hendrix. He said, "We are born in relationship, wounded in relationship and healed in relationship."
What are you struggling with today? Colleen believes that almost any problem we have began with a broken or unhealed relationship. The anxiety or deep sadness we feel often began with unresolved issues in our relationships with our parents, partner, family or friends. When we have unmet needs we are programed to get those needs met. When we don't get what we need we protest by protecting ourselves. this often looks like defensive, critical, demanding behaviors. these behaviors are most often ineffective. As a result we may develop unhealthy relationship with food, sex, gambling our or a substance.
Colleen invites world renown relationship specialists from all over the world to help her guests explore their own relationships and see their problems through a relational lens. She will help us explore how to create intimacy to deepen our connections. Her listeners will gain insights to create a more joyful life.
Colleen is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the state of South Carolina, a certified, Advanced Imago Clinical therapist, a clinical instructor for the Imago International Trading Institute while maintaining her clinical practice in Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.
Thank you for joining Colleen today. Remember, don't let life happen to you. You can be the architect of your relationships. Join her next time on the Relationship Blueprint; Unlock Your Power of Connection.
Contact Colleen at colleen@hiltonheadislandcounseling.com for questions or to be a guest on the show!
The Relationship Blueprint: Unlock Your Power of Connection
Parenting 101 with Marcia Ferstenfeld, M.A., CIRT, C.I.
Join us for an enlightening conversation as we kick off the second season of the Relationship Blueprint with a fantastic guest, a seasoned clinician and co-creator of the "Connected Parents and Thriving Kids" course. Together, we unravel the profound influence of childhood experiences on our adult lives and relationships, and the promise of understanding our past to forge healthier futures. We dive into the concept of "upriver prevention," an inspiring metaphor that highlights the critical importance of addressing childhood needs early on, setting the foundation for a conscious and intentional adulthood.
Our discussion navigates the intricate dance of managing impulses and reactivity within relationships, especially with intimate partners and children. We explore the role of mindfulness, mirroring, and attunement in fostering self-regulation and connecting with children's needs effectively. The conversation shifts to resilience in child development, where we present a balanced view on supporting versus challenging children, even touching on the controversial aspects of sleep training. Through our dialogue, we emphasize nurturing independence and self-esteem, encouraging parents to allow their children to face challenges, reinforcing their capabilities and fostering a sense of accomplishment.
Finally, we delve into the emotional complexities of parenting, focusing on emotional regulation and the importance of creating a safe environment for children. We share insights on maintaining calm and the necessity of repair and open communication, breaking the cycle of fear and shame often rooted in childhood. The overarching theme is creating a nurturing space where children can thrive, with parents acting as guides rather than problem-solvers. As we launch into this new season, we express our gratitude for the community and excitement for the transformative conversations ahead. Join us on this journey to unlock the power of connection and build healthier relationships.
Thank you for joining me today on the Relationship Blueprint. Remember, don't let life happen to you. You can be the architect of your relationships. So join me next time on the Relationship Blueprint; Unlock Your Power of Connection.
Contact Colleen at colleen@hiltonheadislandcounseling.com for questions or to be a guest on the show!
Welcome back Season two of the Relationship Blueprint. Unlock your Power of Connection. And today with us, we have this wonderful, wonderful clinician. She is a senior faculty member, a clinical instructor and someone who is my mentor and dear friend, and I'm so excited that she's going to be with us today. And your specialty is so unique within our organization because you were the co-creator of the course which is Connected Parents and Thriving Kids, which is based on the book by Harville Hendricks and Helen LeKelley Hunt, which is Getting the Love that Heals, and it's so exciting to think about, as a couples therapist, the couples that come to my workshops and once they start to realize how their parents influenced their experience in life and their relationships, there's not one that doesn't say my God, what am I doing to my parents? So, with that in mind, I just want to ask you there's oh yes, I want to mention too, you've been married 52 years.
Speaker 2:I've been married 60 years 60 years.
Speaker 1:We need to update that on your website. Yeah, 60 years and you have 10 grandchildren.
Speaker 2:We have 10 grandchildren and at this count we have six great-grandchildren.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so beautiful your story, you and Larry, but I want you to tell us anything else that I left out about you that feels really important for our listeners to know.
Speaker 2:I think when you quoted what couples say, what are we doing to our kids? That is the phrase when we were doing couples workshops. Larry and I did a lot of couples workshops and that's a theme that I kept hearing when we were guiding them to understand the ways in which their childhoods affected their marriage and their relationship. That's the theme we kept hearing and that's what motivated me to move in the direction of doing something directly to parents dealing with their kids and to try to change the trajectory. And yes, it was concurrent, as it happened. We had that motivation and then Harville and Helen wrote Giving the Love that Heals and they clicked together. So it was a long, slow process where we are.
Speaker 1:I want to tell you something exciting. I was speaking with a colleague, ava, in Austria, yes, and do you know what she's doing? Her project? I don't. She's doing her project, I don't. Well, she's been an obstetric nurse and so she's creating a course for parents before the child's born, until two, to support parents through that really, really challenging time. And we were speaking about you and your course and how, what a wonderful natural flow it would be for them to move from the one area of support holding them through that challenging time and then moving into connected parents, thriving kids read something about it on the web, on the internet, and I think we're designed to not have to remember vividly sometimes.
Speaker 2:You know childbirth itself, you know it's really quite amazing what we are able to somewhat forget, and I think the early days and months of an infant's life and the early years are so demanding and challenging. And, of course, connected Parents Thriving Kids does talk about infancy and early childhood and it deserves focus, the focus that Ava's giving it. So that's great, yes.
Speaker 1:I think it's in a hospital setting because she works in a hospital. So it's a very different paradigm. But what I wanted to say today I have a couple ideas before we get started. I just would say that for myself, parenting no matter how much knowledge I have developmental psychology and years of working with children, even before I became a mom it is the most challenging job and most important work I've ever done, most important.
Speaker 2:Right, it's the most important and I think the metaphor that this is upriver prevention instead of the downriver cleanup.
Speaker 1:Tell us more about that.
Speaker 2:Tell us more, the idea being, instead of waiting till you're an adult and married and having trouble in your relationship, that if you can help, if you can be a more conscious parent, then the chances improve that your child will grow into a conscious adult a more conscious adult and be more ready to take on the challenges of relationship with awareness and with health, with a balanced, healthy countenance, instead of having to act out more of the childhood trauma than is necessary.
Speaker 2:I don't believe that the best childhood avoids the inevitable challenges of a relationship, that there's always going to be growth opportunities embedded in a relationship, an adult relationship, and we will be affected by our childhood and if the parents of young children are more aware of those children's needs. The other thing about this is when people come into the parenting program. When I came into it and began to examine what was missing in the work that we do, really it informed my couple's work far more than I had anticipated. I knew that I was wanting to help parents work with their children, but I didn't realize how much more I would understand about the work I do with couples by delving deeply into this phenomenon of human growth, human childhood. It's just it's hard to language it. As you know, coco, it's an experience, and when you have the opportunity to discover the bits of information and then apply them, it awakens aspects of conscious awareness that have been dormant.
Speaker 1:So let me just get to some really important points that you've made and maybe get some clarification for our listeners. When you use the word consciousness, I think that that word is used often out there, but do we really know what it means to move from the unconscious to the conscious? I know that in our field that's just how it's our language, but in the world out there it's not the language. So can you help us understand how, in your course, that I or anyone in your course can move from this unconscious state of my parenting into my consciousness?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's a really good question. The way I am using it is that I know that, as a physical human, I am influenced by what my body holds. I'm influenced more by what my body holds than what my brain holds. Studies show that there's something like an 80-20 ratio. So the brain can have a lot of understanding and a lot of information, and when a very strong emotional experience occurs in the body, it tends to overrun the intellect and the knowledge and the information that I hold in my brain. So it's like the brain whispers and the body shouts.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, could you say that again?
Speaker 2:I love that. It's as if my brain whispers. It gives me information, but my body and my emotions shout and they override. Often, if I'm not working with effort and focus, my emotions will override what my intellect has as information and understanding.
Speaker 1:So let me see if, but go ahead, I'm sorry, go ahead and then I'll come back. I just what you're saying is so rich. I just want to slow it down a little bit. So what I'm thinking of is the client who dad leaves at one, and the child that the brain doesn't remember. The brain's been told this is when your dad left, but that then the adult child is in my office and talking about how fearful they are about people leaving them, even though perhaps their partner is so committed to them, and yet they really can't seem to make that connection. But I think what you're pointing out for us is that the body remembers the leaving, the body, the little body. Yeah, okay, I wanted to make sure we got that.
Speaker 2:It's an important distinction between what we, the terms we use, that I use are the implicit and the explicit. I think that's from Daniel Siegel, I'm not 100% sure. But implicit is what the body's holding. Explicit is what we remember. So people will say, well, I don't remember, and I understand that they don't cognitively, mentally, remember, and their body does. That feeling that I'm going to be left or that I'm not worthy of staying with becomes a belief that is not understood and it doesn't make sense on an intellectual level. And yet the body insists.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the body remembers. So the implicit memory is what the body knows, that the brain, the explicit memory, can't recall, but it's there and we feel it. And are you saying that in therapy or in really your course? I mean, the course is educational, it can be therapeutic, but it's not considered therapy, not therapy.
Speaker 1:Right, it's educational. Right, it's educational. And what I love about it, too, is that you don't ask anyone to share anything they don't want to share. Take them through the process and it's up to them how much they want to share. They're still going to receive so much from the course just by being there and participating and doing the exercises. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:I would say it is Absolutely. I find that people tend to be willing, within the safety of the course, to share their particular challenges, really helpful to the other members, because then you will discover you're not alone.
Speaker 1:You're not the only one who fill in the blank, you know, so yeah, so I think that that feels really, really important. Then the conscience. So leaving the. So, when people hear about conscious, unconscious, what this course can give us is the tools, the path, to sort of say I wasn't aware of this, this thing that happened, and how it may have impacted how I relate to others, but also how it may be impacting how I parent.
Speaker 2:And that awareness can go a long way and it doesn't go the whole way, because I can know it, I can have recognized, realized that I grew up with something in the environment, some part of my environment, that I really don't like my dad. I grew up with a father who I adored and was very, could be so delightfully warm and loving and affectionate, and he was given to occasional outbursts of rage and his history explains that, because everybody makes sense all the time and he would occasionally just erupt. And as a little girl he terrified me and my mental sense was he never was physical with me and yet I always had the sense that he wanted to throw me out the window. Now go figure that. I know that that was my emotional response to that experience and we'd get past it and then I would enjoy him again. And yet, of course, that had a profound impact on every part of me and I also knew that I did not want to have that. I didn't want to do that, nor did I.
Speaker 2:He could be critical. He thought it was his job to correct me as a dad. He needed to show me the things I was doing wrong. So he could be very critical and I grew up determined not to be critical yeah, except yeah Often. I discovered, as I started to pay attention to my own behavior, for one thing I would I could get triggered and I had to work very, very hard to not become my father. And one thing that I would never say I'll give you something to cry about, because I would start to cry and my dad would say I'll give you something to cry and my dad would say I'll give you something to cry about, and I hated that.
Speaker 2:So of course, I was never going to say it until one day it just jumped out of my mouth and I just went oh no, oh no.
Speaker 1:Although never as a parent. I'll never do this before children. I will never, never, never, never, never. And we're being programmed.
Speaker 2:We're being programmed, we are programmable beings, and so while I'm telling myself I'm not going to do that, I'm being programmed to do it. So, conscious versus unconscious there's a little irony there. How can you be conscious about what's unconscious? It's sort of not even possible. So it's really probing and investigating what is subconscious. What have I held? But it's below my consciousness level, and with effort, with focus, with certain exercises, I can get to more, not everything, but more of what I've suppressed into the subconscious and bring it into conscious. Then the challenge of interrupting an impulse, the body. It swells with indignation or fear or rage, or anger or judgment, or whatever it might be the method for self-regulating, so that it's possible for me to not act on that reactively, unconsciously, with rage or with criticism, or with an attitude or with judgment, or even with folding, all the different ways that we react.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's like your intimate partner will trigger parts of you in a way that nobody else has that power. But I would also add our children Go, will your child? Yes, right. And then what you're speaking about is this ability to once we kind of know, we've done the exercises, which are truly the helpful way to uncover some of this or to get clear about it. Even if you know about it, it's different to get clear about it. And then what you're talking about is how we learn in the course about. You know, how do I manage my reactivity so that I have long enough between the event and I can respond versus react, you know, and that's that space that I need in order to make that conscious choice, and I think that it's so difficult to do that. We talk about, you know, the pause and mindfulness and all of those wonderful things, but really it's challenging when you're triggered.
Speaker 2:It's enormously challenging and sometimes it's impossible, and we get triggered and we act out, and then we have an opportunity to process, which involves something that we call mirroring, which is repeating what we've heard rather than responding to what we've heard, and that in itself is enormously self-regulating. And yet I will forget to do that because I've been triggered, and so then the repair process becomes paramount, because I'm not going to do it perfectly. This is the one guarantee that I make in my course. I say attempt to remember every time to say my one guarantee is you will not do this perfectly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there are many reasons why you won't do it perfectly. One is because you're human and you're subject to these subconscious impulses and limitations and so forth, and the other is that every child is unique, so that, although there are certain principles that are pretty universal, every child has a different set of needs and responses and their physicality. They're unique.
Speaker 1:You know, what you bring up is such an important piece that we focus on in our work is attunement, because I'm thinking of four grandchildren and it's easy to see, well, the one is a baby, so it's early, very early about temperament, but he seems pretty chill. Alan's pretty chill, but the three other grandchildren I'm. So of course it's easier to be a grandparent and be so aware of when I'm with them and my consciousness around them, because I'm not the parent. You know I'm not doing the full time, Absolutely. I'm not doing all the hard work, I'm just getting the fun part and I'm thinking about all of their natures and their specialness and how, all of thank goodness I feel like I'm so proud of my children and their spouses, about how attuned they are to their children but how they're all so different and without that attunement it would be so hard to meet their needs. Because they're different, they need different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so difficult and it's sometimes not even possible. I actually don't. In general, what we want is to meet a child's needs. Yes, and in order for them to develop resilience, it's important that not all of their needs are perfectly met.
Speaker 1:Yes, tell me more about that. I want us to talk more about that, because I think we have a lot of children who have been saved, or the helicopter parent who means so well, and then they haven't developed the one thing that is really the key factor in raising functioning adults that can exist outside of their parents' world, and without that resilience, we are really setting our kids up to not be successful when we save them. So I really want you to talk more about the resilience, how you build that in your children.
Speaker 2:So part of it is backing off and letting them struggle when it's appropriate. You know you don't want to give a small child power tools, of course. However, if they're struggling and they're frustrated and they're trying something, it's not working, that the inclination to rush in and fix it for them or do it for them or make it easier is profound. When you love a child, you don't want to see them what seems to be suffering and to be able to make a distinction between when it's appropriate and when it's healthy for that child to feel the frustration and find their way through it and manage to build. That's where resilience is built.
Speaker 2:When things don't go well and when I'm left to feel the frustration and either accept that I can't do it or figure out a way with somebody to be there, maybe a coach, maybe a guide. That's the way we can do that. Now, this brings me to the mind of. I happen to be opposed to sleep training, which is very popular, and some people are going to do it anyway. What I believe is that it can be quite damaging to small children to be left crying in their beds until they cry themselves out, and the lesson that I believe that a child learns is that nobody's going to come when I need them.
Speaker 1:that a child learns is that nobody's going to come when I need them, and it manifests in various ways but that seems to me not to be a good message, marcia, that implicit memory you're talking about when we, let let's just say, said child. I'm the mom and I've been reading my sleep training book and I'm doing the best I can and I want the best for my baby. So I'm letting my baby cry and I'm not tending to them because I have changed the diaper, I have fed them and I know they're fine and the book tells me they're fine. I'm gonna ignore crying. And what you're saying is that my baby in his or her implicit memory, in their body, that somehow I'm teaching them that when I'm in distress, nobody comes got it. Yeah, yeah, so, and you're. And when you have a client that you know, when you're working with parents who are doing their very best and they think that's the right thing, how do you help, gently, guide them in the right direction?
Speaker 2:Well, something similar to what I heard you just lay out and I don't have at the ready books. Don't have at the ready books. There are some reads that I would recommend that I can go find for you.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. Just if you send them to me, I can put them in our summary and they can learn more about your course. They can learn when you're, because I know you have a course coming up. When is that?
Speaker 2:It's going to. I believe it'll be the second Monday in March, wow, so they can plan ahead Eight Mondays.
Speaker 1:Eight Mondays. And so if I want to sign up for your class eight Mondays, and at what time?
Speaker 2:Three to five Eastern time.
Speaker 1:Three to five Eastern, so they can just do it online. Oh, yeah, yeah, so they don't have to like leave. Yeah, okay, so that's wonderful to know. I'm really glad that you're offering that course.
Speaker 2:Where would they sign up At IRNA?
Speaker 1:imagorelationshipsworkcom. Yeah, I think it's com. Yeah, yeah, simpsons.
Speaker 2:We did imagorelationshipswork or yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and no spaces or dots or anything, just straight through imago relationships work and that is the irna imago relationships north america website where there are lots of amazing courses and that's where that will be posted.
Speaker 1:how much is the course, and that's where that will be posted.
Speaker 2:How much is the course. That's a good question. I don't remember. I don't have that in my I feel like Isn't that awful?
Speaker 1:I don't have that. Yeah, that's okay because you don't have to handle that part of it, the IRNA takes care of it. But I know it's extremely reasonable. And you know, I think of all the things that we buy our grandchildren and that their parents buy for them and that children want, and I can't imagine anything. I really can't imagine anything more valuable than this gift for your child, for you to enroll in this class, if not this time, another time, Because I was thinking go ahead, I'm sorry in another time because I was thinking go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:The other thing, coco, is, I want to be sure to say that many of the people who show up are grandparents, as well as parents or godparents or people who work therapeutically with children or counsel children or teach children, or anyone who was ever a child, him or herself, because the opportunity to understand your own life, challenges and strengths and gifts, and all of that is healing.
Speaker 1:Oh it is. I took your course. I don't know if you remember this, but when I was still working in the schools and I had, I think I'd completed my clinical training. But this was the first course that I took because I was working with children in the schools and it was so profound for me. What I loved about it is I've really been trained in a lot of parenting courses over the years and I think there's a lot of good stuff out there. For example, I recommend on Instagram Dr Becky Good Inside, and this is not to diminish her work, but her work is all around techniques and strategies, as far as I observe and that is all good because it's good strategies. Connected Parents, Thriving Kids is about changing your mindset, transformation of how you're seeing your role as a parent, and that, to me, is the deeper change that we need so that it becomes more automatic. All we handle those things that come up, and it is actually a profound growth opportunity for the parent, grandparent, whomever.
Speaker 1:Yes, and therapists and therapists, yeah, because if you can't really understand that deeper, deeper context, you're going to stay up here and not get under here, and it's why I'm so drawn to your work. I really appreciate it so much. You were talking about something else that made me I wanted to just touch back to about resiliency. I had a client once who he met and she was somewhat ashamed but he was frazzled and she had just finished writing her son's college paper.
Speaker 2:Oh boy, oh boy, if that isn't and that's not unusual, I man, I have to confess, coco, I didn't write any college papers but when my kids were in junior high and high school I stepped in more than I would like to have. If I could have done that again. I think my mom helped me, sometimes more than was in my best interest. I think you mentioned that we have a generation. There was something that sparked in Southern California, somewhere in California. My best interests reflect, I think you mentioned that we have a generation, kind of.
Speaker 2:There was something that sparked in Southern California, I think somewhere in California, the idea that children shouldn't suffer at all.
Speaker 2:We should protect them from any kind of suffering. Unfortunately, it became a thing across the country, probably went beyond the country's borders, the country probably went beyond the country's borders that we must intervene so that children don't ever have to experience disappointment or suffering or exclusion or any of those things that can be painful. And I think judgment and attunement are so important in understanding when it's healthy and appropriate to step in and when it's in the child's best interest to just be there and available and not step in, not rescue. Because you know the word enable it's used in 12 Steps dealing with people who are addicted that when you enable somebody, really disable them. Enabling is disabling. So it's when I do for you something that you can do for yourself and appropriately, it is your responsibility to do this thing and I step in and do it for you. I give you the message that you're incapable and you're broken and you're inept or inefficient and I can do it, but you can't, and that is a dangerous message for your future.
Speaker 1:Buster, you know, I was with one granddaughter recently and she had cleaned something up all by herself and she didn't want to do it, of course, but she did it and afterwards the smile about look what I did. You know, yeah, you know, and you know there would have been so much faster, so much easier to step in and just do it myself. And I have way more time than parents have, Right, Because you know, parents have to get to work, They've got to make the dinner and sometimes it's just easier to do it for them. Yeah, and again goes back to unconscious versus conscious. And even if you're conscious, you know you're doing it for them. You have to. It's conscious, you know you're doing it for them, you have to. It's about faster, and I just want us to really highlight that for parents that just be aware of, like you know, am I robbing them of suffering from frustration?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and finding their own way, and finding their own way.
Speaker 1:Yes, and the feeling of accomplishment that we all feel when we I mean when I do something I don't want to do. I just cleaned my glass globes in my kitchen. You know it's like I didn't want to do that, but yet afterwards I went oh, they look so pretty. I'm so glad that's done. We can't take that from our children.
Speaker 2:When we enable them, that's exactly what we do. We rob them of that sense of independence and competence and accomplishment. Those are good feelings. They help build the ability to then take that things on. They build courage, they build determination and a willingness to risk, which is the only way we really do anything. If we learn we're incompetent, it's very damaging.
Speaker 1:This parent I'm talking about that wrote the paper we talked about.
Speaker 1:You know her impulse to do that and how she was really had no help, no guidance growing up, and education was so important to her for her children, and how she had been a BTA mom all those very, very involved parents and really had unconsciously been doing things for her son so long and she really at that point was so scared for him that he was going to flunk out of school that she couldn't help herself from stepping in again.
Speaker 1:And that's to your point of if we don't start this so early with letting a two-year-old pick up his things, you know, and helping him, guiding him how that suddenly at 18, they don't have the 18 button push you know like, oh, now I can make my own lunch, oh, now I can do my own laundry because I'm 18. You know this is such a gradual process. What you're talking about is really giving these children that opportunity early so that they have the confidence, even if they write the paper and fail, it's their failure, it's their experience and being there as a resource is very different from stepping in and taking on the job.
Speaker 2:So if you need help, let me know, I'm here, go to work. If you need help, let me know, I'm here, go to work and then I try to help them reach out. When I was young, it was the encyclopedia.
Speaker 1:Yes, me too.
Speaker 2:But there are so many resources that are available and for them to develop the skills and the flexibility and the inventiveness to be able to find their way is more important than getting the paper done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, we get to hold them as a resource. You know, when they don't make the team or um, right, you know someone has hurt them, we get to hold them through that. But we don't have to, or we should not, solve it for them. You know it's a very delicate dance, isn't it?
Speaker 2:There's a little book that I think the author's last name was Miller, that's my best recollection. It was called Enabling and I remember that she went through all of these things that you would think of as qualities in terms of kindness and helpfulness and there are many and you think, oh yeah, I want to be all of those things. And she points out how those very qualities of interactive behavior can damage when they become enabling, when they send a message to a child I can, you can't, instead of you can and I'm here if you need me.
Speaker 1:So I wonder I'd love this before we go today if you'd be willing to help our listeners maybe try one or two things so that we can give them some homework if they want to participate and kind of practice something with their kids. That might be new or different.
Speaker 2:One thing I would throw out is the stretch you know, at any age really. But I often in the course I quote a piece of something from Faber and Maslisch, who wrote how to Talk, so Kids Will Listen, and Listen, so Kids Will Talk. Love that book, love that book. And it goes back to Chaim Ganat, who was sort of the first therapist who said guess what? Children are people and we need to treat them with the respect that we offer to other humans.
Speaker 2:So she tells the story of a mom who went to their course, was taking the class with Faber and Eslisch, and came home and her little boy, who was still quite small, was making the bed.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, he was making an awful mess of making the bed. And because she had just come from the course, her impulse to jump in and say I'll do it for you. You're clearly incapable, I will do it for you. She bit her tongue, she held back and she said I see you're making the bed. That's all she said. And she just took a deep breath, let the bed be as scrambled as it was, and the very next day the same little boy went at the same task and did a beautiful job. Now, if she had stepped in to do it for him. He probably wouldn't have come back the next day to even try, but he found his own. He was able to evaluate what he did wrong, what he did right, how to do it better because she stepped back. My request or my inclination to encourage parents watch for anything that you are doing that needs to be left to the child to do and take a breath and think about that little boy making his bed.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think it may be from the same book, but I'd remember a story somewhere about that, where the mom sends the child to the room to clean up the room and that her natural inclination when she walked in the little bed was made as you described and there were still toys on the floor. The book had been put away. So she wanted to come in and say you said you were going to clean your room, like there's still toys all over the floor and what? What she did, of course, after really practicing, what we're talking about was she walked in. She had to really manage her own reactivity, because he knows what it's supposed to look like. And he didn't do that and she said I'm so proud of you. You made your bed and look at those books you put away. They're in order. Thank you so much. And she left and she stayed quiet and it was a similar response. The little boy suddenly just went and started picking up the rest. He just did it and it was without all the you know lots of lecturing.
Speaker 2:And I'm going to, if I can remember it, I'm going to use that story, remember it. I'm going to use that story because I think what is being allowed is that there is that natural inclination in children to please and to follow what it is that is wanted of them. When we allow them to follow that instinct instead of override it and leave them discouraged and feeling wrong and bad, ride it and leave them discouraged and feeling wrong and bad. The other thing that you point out that I could suggest to people is watch for the opportunities, all the opportunities that you can possibly find to see what is right and to acknowledge it. Watch like find them doing something right and accuse them of it. And I think that comes from that's not original, but it's great Goldman's, it's good practice. It's good practice Find them doing something right and accuse them of it, even the tiniest, tiniest moment, sitting, so still, next to your sister.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. Yeah, it's funny how, when one of them is doing something right, too, is noticing. You know, let's just say there's three of them in the house and they're all you know busy little kids, but one of them is using their indoor voice, right, and the other two are not. Instead of saying stop screaming, it would be like Harper, you're using your indoor voice so happy. Thank you for using your indoor voice, because now mommy can concentrate on her work and then the other kids start to get fun, because you haven't highlighted what they're doing wrong.
Speaker 2:So this is the phenomenon that's so valuable to know that you're pointing to, coco, is that what we give energy to grows? Yes, so if you want something, if you want more of something, pay attention to it, focus on it, and if you want something to diminish, pull your energy and attention away. So most of us are trained to go negatively at what's wrong. To fix it. Yeah, actually gives more energy to it and encourages it to grow. Because what do children want more than anything? Our attention. It doesn't matter whether it's lovely attention or nasty attention. They'll take whatever they can get. And if you're saying well, if you're good and quiet, I'm going to look the other way because that gives me a breather. But I'm going to pay attention to you when you're causing trouble. You're going to pay attention to you when you're causing trouble. You're going to learn to cause more trouble, because that's going to get my attention.
Speaker 1:So important and it makes me think about our couples too, like. So just a little segue here. When you said that, it really struck me about you know where we put our energy, it will grow and how. You know in adult relationships that it's not that different. Like I know that my husband is always trying so hard and wants to please me, right, but my nature, my natural impulse is not to thank a grown-up for doing what I think a grown-up should do. Right, like you just took out the trash, but you're not. You know when I say something like, yeah, thanks for taking that out. You know what a super sensitive nose I have and it's so nice that that's gone. Thanks for doing that. It means something to people when they it's a natural like, like thing that has to be done in a house. But like when we acknowledge what our partner does for us as well, not only is that good for our relationship, we're also teaching our children that we pay attention to the things that we're grateful for. Yeah, what's working.
Speaker 2:As you tell this story, I get this image of the little boy that lives in your husband, because there is one. There's a little child in each. We help heal and fill the space with that positive energy. I wanted to make a quick observation. You talked about a woman who was writing her daughter's school paper. Son, what she did is often what happens. So. You grow up in a family where you're neglected. You become over-attentive. You grow up in a family where you're over-attentive. You might go to the other extreme and be way better. The opposite this is John Bradshaw's quote is 180 degrees from sick is still sick.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:And the health is in the middle and that requires we tend to be more reactive. You know, if I don't want to be this, then I'll go that. Yeah, health and constructive approach and what is helpful, genuinely helpful is in the middle.
Speaker 1:And you know, you're bringing up something that I did, that I'm not proud of but happy to share, because I think it's about um such such good effort that mom had to write that paper. Her, her, her intentions were good, um, yes, and yet the impact was, I would guess, not good. I mean, it was.
Speaker 2:And there are minions. She is not alone.
Speaker 1:No, a lot, but what I, similar to you with your dad. My mom had fits of rage and also had this loving side, and so I grew up and I mean it was conscious for me today, just like you said, I am never screaming at my children, ever, and I'm not going to over-talk, I'm not going to over-lecture, I am going to be, you know, a much more calm parent. And so what I think I did, I think I did a lot right, but I think, in this area I really didn't, and I didn't realize that my silence from holding myself back, from saying what I was feeling in my body and in my head, was so damaging, because it was the inner rage that they experienced, it was the quiet that they didn't know. What is she thinking, what is she feeling? When is she coming back? Like it was so happy and now she's not.
Speaker 1:And so here I am thinking that I am going in my bedroom and calming myself and whatever. And I didn't know, I just didn't know. And so the course and and um, the work that we're talking about is about okay, so I didn't know, I'm not perfect and I don't pretend to be, but then when I know I can make a difference. I can work to be better than I was, so that's what I think you and I share with this passion for the parenting piece of this work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. The feedback I get is that people really make that. Things do get better, they become healthier and the inner world of the parent is addressed and is healed to some extent. Yeah, and that allows for more healthy relationships with the children.
Speaker 1:And when you talked about repair, I think this is a good opportunity for us to come back to that, which is so, say, I do the rage thing and it's inner rage, and I'm in my bedroom and I'm quiet and I realize, like I'm doing it again. I'm doing it again. I get to come back out and say you know, child, I am so sorry, I'm upset right now and I need to tell you why I'm upset and what I need you to do, instead of me going quiet, and I don't want to do that anymore, but it's hard for me, just like you have things that are hard for you, and I'm trying to do better. Can you forgive me? Yeah, you know what a message we send, right?
Speaker 2:We let our children understand that we also are on a path of learning and growing and expanding and making mistakes, and that is far more health supportive and healthy then often parents feel like they have to present the image that they have all the answers and they have it all figured out, and that is not a gift to small children. Certainly you want them to know you're reliable and you are the parent and you're in charge, in a way that creates safety for them and to let them know that you are also on a path of growth and healing and sometimes have to make amends.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's it. And when you said that I was thinking about what this is just an interesting thing I've observed in adult relationships is that the impulse to not apologize.
Speaker 2:The difficulty in apologizing. The difficulty yeah, can we talk about that a minute have difficulty owning that they did something wrong. They're sitting with some deep shame about their imperfection that they're frightened of if I tell you I did something wrong, you'll think I am unworthy and it's like I'm a total loss. I'm a total loser if I made a mistake, that I've somehow internalized that message. So the fear there's fear, which is usually when we peel down any behavior that's less than constructive and helpful there's fear. So my fear is you're going to see that I am not who I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to be a perfect person because I'm a parent, and so there's fear. You'll find me out that I'm actually flawed and to be able to embrace that reality yes, I'm flawed, and sharing that with you appropriately, from inappropriate moments and appropriate situations, helps you have permission to know that you can also make mistakes and come back from them. Because you made a mistake doesn't mean you are a mistake, right?
Speaker 1:And I wonder too and I loved your opinion about this the other kind of working theory I have in my mind about people that have trouble saying they're sorry at the deepest part. Somehow you know there's this shame piece of course. But I also wonder if you know there's this shame piece of course, but I also wonder if in their family of origin, that saying that you're sorry, admitting you're wrong, has a bigger meaning as far as You're onto something, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's an individual who has difficulty saying and, in investigation, what is discovered is that when this man was a boy and would attempt an apology with his mom, that would open up the floodgates. Yes, not only that, and furthermore, and she'd lay it on him. So he learned not to open those floodgates by daring to say I'm sorry. As an adult, it's hard for him to say I'm sorry, even when he is.
Speaker 1:And you know that when you tell the truth you get in trouble. Yes, who the hell would tell?
Speaker 2:the truth. It's a lesson Don't tell the truth. And actually this is exactly how white children lie. When we consciously or unconsciously never consciously when we unconsciously set up a situation that makes it dangerous for them to tell the truth, they're going to make up a story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's not safe, and that is something that you know, I know in your work you're so dedicated to is safety, and would you tell us a little bit more? And then I know that you need to go, but I really want to hear your thoughts about keeping safety in the forefront. Will you tell us about that.
Speaker 2:So I think safety is a relative term, that part of the way we can create a safe space for our children to the extent we can possibly create predictability, that we are not unpredictable, relatively, relatively not perfectly predictable so that means that there's some structure, the fact that children need limits. I do believe that often parents have a misguided notion that I put limits in place because I need them as the parent and they're a difficult thing for children. Children actually feel safer when there are clear, predictable limits and that doesn't mean you can't come to me and talk. I will hear you and I won't make you wrong for what you're wanting, what you're needing, what you're thinking, what you're feeling, and I will let you know what is okay and what is not in our family.
Speaker 2:So I think safety is largely greatly served by limits along with being loving. Limits along with being loving. Loving limits is an approach and I'm not thoroughly in support of that approach to parenting. But love and limits has some really good components and those two words just the title, that putting love together with clear, predictable limits and structure. In giving the love that heals, safety and structure are really important to provide by consistency, predictability and calm connection.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. Yeah, I think you know we really look at this topic of parenting. We really look at this topic of parenting and I think what is helpful to me hearing what you've shared is that you've really created a way for us to leave this podcast and go home and kind of rethink a little bit about you know what am I doing that I really like you know, that I think is really good about my parenting and what is like one thing or two things that I want to maybe re-examine and we know about the course. However, if that's something that you're unable to do right now, reading the book Giving the Love that Heals would be a wonderful way to begin looking at your own parenting style and what you might want to change. And your practical suggestion about looking for what is right, that you're catching them doing the right thing and then sometimes amplifying that and really focusing on what you want to grow in your children, I think is really something important you've shared, and that idea of creating safety with our predictability and how to give that safety to our children so that they know there are loving limits and that, yes, the logical consequence you spilled your milk list. I'll show you where the rags are.
Speaker 1:Let's mop this up, because then they start to make the connection that you aren't doing something to me, punishing me. Actually, I spilled milk and now I have to clean it up. What a simple solution. But it is that loving kind of limits. You know you can't just toss your milk across the room, but if you do. You know you can't just toss your milk across the room, but if you do. Here's what we do about it, right? Yep, yeah, is there anything you want to add before we sign off? I've really enjoyed this so much.
Speaker 2:Me too, coco. I don't think so. I mean there may be, but at the moment it feels there's maybe. I'll add a sweet story that stays just as bubbling up for me, and it is about my father, that he lived till his late 80s, and close to that time we had a moment. My dad had much wounding and so he would tend to go in Giving the Love that Heals.
Speaker 2:Harville talks about children meeting a wall in a mirror and my dad would go from being angry if he was at all felt like he had done the wrong thing, he would go into shame. And that left sort of the middle ground was there was nothing there for me to push against, because if I would push he would drop or he would go up. He would either go up into anger or drop into shame. Now that was the times when we were at challenging moments, not when I was sitting on his lap and when he was delighting in my paintings and so forth, but I never was able to address that until his late years. And there was a moment where I think my brother made the observation that I always tangled with my dad and I did. I think there's something in me wanted him to be his better self. I wanted to be his therapist. I just didn't know it.
Speaker 1:You saw something in him that he didn't know he had. He had it, but you saw it Right the story of you, my love.
Speaker 2:So when this was brought up, my dad dropped into that chain place and he said something like oh, I was a terrible father. He said no, dad, that's not the truth. And the next day I sat next to him on a bench in my sister's home and I said dad, I want to talk to you about what happened yesterday. You were by no means a terrible dad and I love you very much. What was hard for me was when sometimes you would just erupt and go into a rage and I was a little girl and I was frightened and what I needed from you was I didn't get. And he heard me and he said to me I really was struggling at work and I would come home and I would take it out on you, and that wasn't right and I'm so sorry. So that healing moment has gone a long way.
Speaker 1:So also, what you're telling us is that it's not too late, never too late, yeah, so even if we're having in our adult relationship, you know, if my daughter wants to tell me about something, I've done that if we make that space for that to happen, like your dad did, that, that could be really healing.
Speaker 2:What it made clear to me is that it's not that he was unaware, he just did not know how to address it. Yeah yeah, and he did not certainly never wanted to do any harm.
Speaker 1:Oh, and you believe you knew that. I think always I knew that. I guess you hearing it. There was something different about that. There was something different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was. My childhood was filled with love.
Speaker 1:It just didn't have a lot of safety. So so much love. So thank you for sharing that beautiful story with us, and I think I feel like it's important right now to say the relationship blueprint. Unlock your power of connection. That story tells the story of the blueprint because it was in your dad's willingness to talk with you, right.
Speaker 2:And to listen to me.
Speaker 1:And to listen and to acknowledge that, then that unlocks something within you that could heal. And it's so powerful. When you describe that connection you felt with your dad before he left us, you know it's so beautiful. So I welcome all of you to think more about this kind of connection that you want with the people you love, whether they're children, kind of connection that you want with the people you love, whether they're children, your partner, your parent, your friend, and that this potential is there and that that potential is within us and it's within the people we love, and we thank you for being with us today. I love it. I want you back on the show because we can't talk enough about parenting. I feel like today's parenting I guess my mother must have said the same thing, but it feels to me like being a parent today is so much more challenging than what I had when I was a mom. I think that's real.
Speaker 2:It feels that way Because of social media. It absolutely is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just that the culture we live in it makes it. It feels to me. I'm not a parent of a young child, but in my experience, watching it feels like it's really hard. And then we didn't even get to talk about co-parenting in families where there's divorce, or even what co-parenting looks like when you both have these stories and then, if they're not conscious, how they interfere with the connection not only in the couple, but how that impacts kids. So there's so much more to talk about and I really hope you'll join me again. I would love it. All right, Goodbye everybody. You're so welcome, Goodbye everybody, and we're so happy you're back. This is episode one of season two of the Relationship Blueprint. Unlock your Power of Connection and we can't wait to see you again next week. We took a little hiatus over the holidays to be with family and I'm really glad that I did. I feel fresh and rejuvenated. Bring more wonderful guests and information so that we can all feel better and live a better life. Thanks everybody, We'll talk soon.
