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The Relationship Blueprint: Unlock Your Power of Connection
Colleen is a student of Dr. Harville Hendrix and Dr. Helen LaKelly Hunt who created the Imago Theory and have brought this work to over 50 countries around the world. She is profoundly influenced by this belief shared by Dr. Harville Hendrix. He said, "We are born in relationship, wounded in relationship and healed in relationship."
What are you struggling with today? Colleen believes that almost any problem we have began with a broken or unhealed relationship. The anxiety or deep sadness we feel often began with unresolved issues in our relationships with our parents, partner, family or friends. When we have unmet needs we are programed to get those needs met. When we don't get what we need we protest by protecting ourselves. this often looks like defensive, critical, demanding behaviors. these behaviors are most often ineffective. As a result we may develop unhealthy relationship with food, sex, gambling our or a substance.
Colleen invites world renown relationship specialists from all over the world to help her guests explore their own relationships and see their problems through a relational lens. She will help us explore how to create intimacy to deepen our connections. Her listeners will gain insights to create a more joyful life.
Colleen is a Licensed Professional Counselor in the state of South Carolina, a certified, Advanced Imago Clinical therapist, a clinical instructor for the Imago International Trading Institute while maintaining her clinical practice in Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.
Thank you for joining Colleen today. Remember, don't let life happen to you. You can be the architect of your relationships. Join her next time on the Relationship Blueprint; Unlock Your Power of Connection.
Contact Colleen at colleen@hiltonheadislandcounseling.com for questions or to be a guest on the show!
The Relationship Blueprint: Unlock Your Power of Connection
Exploring Polyvagal Theory: Transforming Relationships through Connection and Understanding with Hayley Hoffman
This episode dives into how understanding polyvagal theory can profoundly impact our ability to connect in relationships. Hayley Hoffman, an Imago therapist, explores the importance of safety, co-regulation, and practical strategies, encouraging listeners to cultivate curiosity and playfulness to navigate conflicts and enhance connection.
• Understanding polyvagal theory and its implications for relationships
• The role of safety in thriving relationships
• Exploring the concept of co-regulation and nonverbal communication
• How to manage emotional reactions and create space for connection
• Introducing the "SIFT" framework for emotional awareness
• Strategies like breath and movement to regulate the nervous system
• The significance of mirroring in relationships
• Encouragement for employing curiosity and playfulness in communication and connection
Thank you for joining me today on the Relationship Blueprint. Remember, don't let life happen to you. You can be the architect of your relationships. So join me next time on the Relationship Blueprint; Unlock Your Power of Connection.
Contact Colleen at colleen@hiltonheadislandcounseling.com for questions or to be a guest on the show!
Hi everybody and welcome back to the Relationship Blueprint. Unlock your Power of Connection. And I'm really, really excited again today to have an amazing guest with us. Haley is very important to me because I met her many years ago at a conference and the four of us her husband, myself and Kevin we just really connected and it's been a really sweet connection ever since. But what Haley has to share, I wrote something down because I was thinking about how polyvagal is all over the place on Instagram and people really don't know what it is and how important it is.
Speaker 1:So I just wrote down that our ability to connect in relationships is deeply tied to our automatic nervous system and when we feel safe, we can be open, engaged and compassionate. When our nervous systems detect stress or threat, even unconsciously, we shift into fight, flight, freeze or submit, affecting how we relate to others. And, as you know, this podcast is all about relationships. We are trying so hard in our world to take care of ourselves, but we do not live in the world alone. We are always in relationship, whether we think we are or not, always in relationship. Haley is a dynamic imago therapist and polyvagal specialist in Washington DC, transforming relationships through deep emotional healing and nervous system regulation, blending neuroscience with compassionate therapy, she helps couples break free from conflict. She helps couples break free from conflict, rebuild trust and create lasting connection. With her expert guidance, clients move from reactivity to resilience, fostering a love that feels safe, authentic and deeply fulfilling. And that is the work of passion. Welcome, haley. Is there anything I left out about you?
Speaker 2:you want to share with our listeners. No, I think you covered it beautifully, Coco, and thank you so much for having me here today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when we were together and you were talking to me about this passion, I just couldn't wait to learn more from you and hear more about it. Polyvagal is something that is a little bit of a mystery to even, I think, a lot of therapists Haley. So what is polyvagal theory and how does it impact our nervous system?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this is a theory written by Dr Stephen Porges, who is a research scientist. He delivered it, I think, at a conference in 1995, and it was like a three or four hour presentation and at the end of it the room was just like dumbfounded open mouth and somebody raised their hand and said if you could sum this up in one sentence, what would it be? And what he said was we thrive in our relationships when we are in safety. We thrive in our relationships when we are in safety. Harville Hendricks happened to be sitting in the room when that happened.
Speaker 2:I didn't see that, yeah, and so Harville has shared that with me, that that happened and this moment, this piece of everybody recognizing that we have these two biological compulsions. They're two equally powerful biological compulsions. The first one, which we are all familiar with, is survival up to look for danger and to protect us from it and to act on our behalf before our brains can actually kick in. And that would be what I would describe as when, in distress, we turn away from other people, we turn towards ourselves and we do what we know how to do. Okay, the second biological compulsion is connection, and that one I would describe as when, in distress, I turn towards you, even when you, my partner, are my perceived source of distress. So that piece of saying, can we strengthen the pathway of I turn towards you instead of continuing to reinforce the pathway of I turn away from you?
Speaker 1:That is really fascinating. So there's really two directions that we take, which is one is to go away, go into ourselves to survive, and the other one is to turn towards and connect that idea that we thrive in relationships only when we're safe. Was that the quote? When there is safety, when there is safety, when there is safety, relationships thrive.
Speaker 2:And that's the difference between surviving and thriving. So survival is doing what we already know how to do. Thriving is the possibility of doing something new. I love this.
Speaker 1:So it just it makes so much sense in the context of a MAGA relationship theory, because what we're saying is, you know, when couples come in and they're disconnected, and then obviously through the workshops, if they're not in therapy but through those workshops, we're, and they're okay, they're maybe sitting next to each other, but there's some anxiety and disconnection, and by Sunday that's the magic of seeing the couples connecting, but they are willing to do something they haven't done before.
Speaker 2:Right, and something happens in the space of that workshop. I've seen it over and over again. Something, I've seen it over and over again something happens where the, the couple, feels safe enough to say let's meet. And I love what harville has created, this concept of meeting in the space between us. I would say we are two nervous systems meeting in the space between us, whether we like it or not. Hey well, the visual right.
Speaker 1:could you imagine just if we just saw nerves of like stick figure figures like that's what's meeting in that space?
Speaker 2:And our nervous systems are contagious. This is the piece that Carvel taught us right from the very beginning that co-regulation was the very first language we learned in infancy. And so co-regulation, the language that we have that has no words, that language that says cry and somebody shows up and takes care of me, figures out what I need, that critical language in that first year of birth that goes two ways. I want you to think about the infant, who is completely okay. The infant who has been fed, is dry, is entertained, is completely okay.
Speaker 2:And the parent who is exhausted and hasn't showered for three days and has loads of laundry waiting for them and would really like somebody to come and feed them. That exhausted parent looks over at that completely happy baby and is washed with these endorphins and serotonin and oxytocin and is able to go. My God, you are so perfect, you are so wonderful. That is co-regulation going the other way the baby co-regulating the parent instead of the parent co-regulating the baby. So that two-way street is really important, because whatever my nervous system is putting in the space between us is potential for you to catch and whatever your nervous system is putting is potential for me to.
Speaker 1:And hayley, it's interesting. As you know, you and I are talking and we do know each other. I'm thinking about how, um, when I have taught in person and I was really fixated on being in person with people because I could feel the energy, but over time, teaching online and doing some counseling online, I'm so so in touch now with the energy online, like even though we're miles and miles away. Can you talk about that a little bit? It's a really interesting phenomenon to me in the context of polyvagal.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So again, our social engagement system is being managed by our cranial nerves. We have five cranial nerves that are like set, if you imagine them, in our faces. They're impacting our eyes, they're impacting our ears, they're impacting our nose, our mouths. They're impacting everything that says how do I communicate with you?
Speaker 2:And history, or research, says to us that 93% of what we communicate is in that nonverbal part. It's the way that we lean in, it's the tilt of our head, it's the tone of our voice. It is like am I listening to you? Am I really like with you? And making eye contact with you, all of those things. Seven percent of communication is going to be the words that we use. And so, even while we are not in the same place, what we can do by actually like just leaning in and looking at each other, looking for the other person's eyes, looking to make that eye contact, offering a warm presence, something that says I welcome you, I see you, thank you so much for being here Like the energy of that is going to transmit. It is simply going to happen. And so, while I'd like to be able to see your hands and your feet, and how close you, are sitting to each other and all of those things.
Speaker 2:They don't absolutely have to happen.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting. And you're the 93% such a big number of being nonverbal. I mean, when I had an interview with Helen and Harville last week, I was talking about how, when I do an eye roll, how I can claim innocence, right, because I didn't say anything. And when you think about all the nonverbals, we look at those numbers of 93%. How are we showing up in the world? How really are world? Here's an interesting question. So what if I fake it? Can I fake being interested? I really am obviously interested in what you're saying, but what if I wasn't? Would that energy be read? Can our bodies pick up on it?
Speaker 2:Your nervous system is noticing for you unbeknownst to your brain. Your nervous system is picking up all of the cues, the ways in which your partner is across from you or the person in the camera is across from you. Your nervous system is going to collect that, and that's one of the organizing principles that Stephen Porges laid out in his theory, which is what he calls. He had to make up a new word for it. He calls it neuroception your nervous system detecting unbeknownst to your brain. Okay, if you were in a car and driving along and the car in front of you slammed on the brakes, if you needed to wait for your brain to make meaning of that, to make sense of that, then you would hit the car in front of you before you had a chance to step on the brakes. But your body acts on behalf of survival and so you step on the brakes. And so think about all the ways in which you anticipate neurobiologically car crash with your partner. Like it's coming and you slam on the brakes, you start talking, you look away, you do all kinds of things that just happened. I love that you gave the eye roll as an example, because an eye roll is autonomic. Your body did it, you didn't think to yourself. And now I'm going to roll my eyes. And it's not unusual for a partner to say, did you just roll your eyes? And the other person just say, no, I didn't roll my eyes Because they might not even know that they did it.
Speaker 2:Okay, and the beauty of what we do in Imago is we get the benefit of the mirror. Like, what we do in Imago is we get the benefit of the mirror Like, wow, I think I just saw that. Did I see that? No-transcript, I wonder what that was. And then playfulness, to be able to say I think you just rolled your eyes. Did you hear me? Like, if we can bring a little bit of playfulness and curiosity into this space, we are already on the pathway to connection.
Speaker 1:Okay, any of us who've been in a relationship and any of us who've been mad at our partner or hurt I'm just thinking about how, when we say bring curiosity, bring playfulness, how counterintuitive that really is and how that body wants to respond versus getting that frontal cortex involved, right. So tell us about how you manage that. How do you bring on curiosity and playfulness when you're really triggered?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I have a couple of different threads I want to pick up there, coco. The first one is that we get better at whatever we practice, whatever it is, and so if we continue to do what we already know how to do in survival, we just get better and better at that, and our goal is to create just a little bit of space between something happened and I'm about to do what I usually do. Okay, just a little bit of space. If we can do that, then we have the possibility of shifting, and everything about Imago ties so beautifully. My foundational base is Imago, 12-step recovery and polyvagal, and what I've discovered is those three things all speak the same language.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so, if we can like, just get that little bit of pause, notice I'm having a reaction. So that piece of noticed, I had a reaction when you did such and such, that ability to practice that so that I can mirror what's going on. Mirroring to me is the most beneficial polyvagal tool that I have. It immediately slows me down, it immediately asks me to create a little bit of space and offers me the opportunity for curiosity, and that curiosity, if possible, should always be about me. I wonder why I'm having a reaction to you in this moment, because you are not so big, like what Head's blowing off right now.
Speaker 1:But for people to take this in right, we can slow it down and think about what you said. So how do we arrive at playfulness and curiosity, especially when everything in our old brain that we've practiced over and over again is to either hide, you know, go into my room, shut down, yell, eye roll, do something? But really the question you're saying if we can make this little pause and say to our partner they have said X. And I say to my partner hey, I'm just really curious, I'm having such a reaction to what you just said, if I can just do that and make it about me and then also go to the mirror. And then when they say, you know, I just said blah, blah, blah, to mirror them, and you're saying that that's the second tool in really regulating our nervous system. And mirror meaning for those of you might be your first episode mirror means to repeat back what you've heard word for word as much as you can to sort of get what they're saying right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and there's a couple of interesting things because, if you remember, I said that we have these five cranial nerves and they are impacting everything the number of times a couple will have the conversation of you said such and such. No, I didn't. I didn't say that the ability for us to truly validate that, the experience that each individual had, is actually valid to say that, yes, that is how you experienced it. The smallest muscle we have in our body is a muscle in our ear. Because we are mammals, we have this muscle and when we get a signal of danger or anything that puts us onto alert, that muscle literally closes and our ability to hear what is being said is impacted by the closed muscle.
Speaker 2:And all of the history that comes before Wow, the history that comes before, wow, the research around this came from lions. Okay, because lions have a war that is designed to freeze prey in its motion that it is so blood-curdling that their prey freezes. Okay, the problem with that is because it is so impactful. If the lion didn't have a way to actually close their own eardrum, they too would freeze, and so we are doing this both the person who is the number of times that somebody says you yell at at me and the partner says I'm not yelling, of course. Of course that is exactly true that I hear myself as being talking in a normal voice and you hear my voice as being too much, and of course that happens because that's the way our nervous systems are designed. But my normal voice is going to actually I mean, my yelling voice is actually going to sound normal to me because my nervous system gives it for me.
Speaker 1:So let's pause here a minute and think about there's a couple and they are having this conversation and don't we know that there are? Every couple that comes into the office wants to say well, I told him I wasn't going to my mother's for Thanksgiving and he said no, you said we were going to your mother's for Thanksgiving. Like that is the basic premise, right? And they really hear things differently. And now we know why, about this small muscle in the ear. However, then, when they're there, so you and I can role play this, so you're telling me one perspective and I'm telling you the other. You're telling me one perspective and I'm telling you the other, and I often, I think couples, individuals start to feel like what reality are you in? Right, which is the good question, because we're each in our own reality. Right, but what do we have to do?
Speaker 2:So let's play that out Well so, with the therapist in the room.
Speaker 2:Because, again, I would say to you, we have to practice these things in order to be able to use them when we need them. And so the value of Imago is that we're inviting couples to practice appreciations as a way of making mirroring a tool that they each other, of turning to each other and looking for what you love and cherish and value with each other. Then, when you have this situation of no, you said this, no, I said this going on with each other, with a little bit of luck, one of you is going to take responsibility and say wait a second, I'm noticing that we're doing our usual dance, and that's the thing that we're asked Naming and noticing what's going on. And I want us to be able to be as like whoa, even just going whoa. This is what we usually do A great moment of curiosity. So, if you can notice it and name it, when my husband and I get into one of these kinds of conversations, I'm the minimizer in our relationship and he's the maximizer. I'm assuming your listeners know those imago terms.
Speaker 1:Really Sure. I think I don't know that we I think we may have mentioned it, but I don't think it's clear. Let's get clear about it.
Speaker 2:I don't know that we I think we may have mentioned it, but I don't think it's clear let's get clear about it, sure? So as the minimizer in our relationship, I tend to turn inward. I tend to think that if we don't talk about this, things will blow over and we won't have to wrestle with it. I am waiting for it to pass. I need time to process things. I want a little bit of space on issues that feel heated.
Speaker 2:My maximizer, husband, david, he tends to say we should talk about this, let's figure this out right now, let's get this done, let's figure out what's going on. Maybe I'll call in some other people that we can say like, what do you think about this? He's very extroverted, I'm very introverted, but we match up beautifully, of course. And so, as the minimizer, if he starts having a conversation and I'm feeling overwhelmed, or even if I'm just objecting to him, my likely response is to go quiet. And then at some point he realizes that he's the only person talking and he will look over at me and he will say to me how am I doing in there? Because he knows I'm having the conversation in my head.
Speaker 1:I love that. How am I doing in there? That's so, it's playful and it's curious.
Speaker 2:That's right, and that is something that we've learned to do with each other, and so it doesn't matter who notices, but if one of you can notice and say, let's come back together, let's do this the way that we know how to do this. Because my answer to his question is he never wins the argument in my head.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that and you know what you're saying. It reminds me of a lot of times I say to my couples you know, somebody has to put on their big girl or big boy panties. When you notice that you're in your dad, which is you said this or I said that, or you're getting quiet, minimizing and he's maximizing, you know that someone noticed and say, hey, we know this is ineffective, we're doing it again. What can we do better? Let's mirror. I notice I'm having a reaction, but all these tools can happen without interrupting that pattern.
Speaker 1:And that's right when your nervous system is hijacked. You haven't said this, but I'm curious about it. I think you're also saying we have to get really responsible for our nervous system and that there are things that we can do to help manage that nervous system. But we have to be really aware of what's going on in our internal body and mind and spirit.
Speaker 2:This is where this work crosses into Dan Siegel's work, and Dan Siegel gave us all the gift of a SIFT. A SIFT is the process of looking at sensations, images, feelings and thoughts, and so if you can start to look at your nervous system from the experience of sensations, like, what are the sensations that are going on in my body, what's happening to my heart rate, my breath, my body temperature, my muscles it is, I think, the most nuanced of the ways in which we enter our nervous system and a lot of people feel like they're not in touch with their sensations. But the more you practice noticing sensations, the more you can say I could enter my nervous system there, okay, and say I could enter my nervous system there, okay. In this piece of images it might be around being able to see yourself where you are, to being able to see, like, what's the world around me, what's happening between you and I, like you might recognize the image of our dynamic of, oh, here we are, we're doing it, we're having a conversation that is starting to get touchy and one of us is on our phone. That's an image that you might go oh, yeah, there we are. That's going to make me mad, no matter what, or somebody's involved in doing something and the other person shows up and wants to talk about it. That's an image that might be familiar for you in your relationship.
Speaker 2:So, starting to be aware of what's the image here, then it's the feelings. What are those feeling words? Maybe that is the thing that cues you to oh, something's going on with me when you're noticing that you have an emotion. And I remind couples over and over again feelings are words that we can say one at a time as soon as I say I feel like that. We can say one at a time as soon as I say I feel like, or I feel that we have moved out of emotion and into thought. Okay, so feelings are its own unique thing. And then the T in SIFT is thought. So maybe there is a thought that helps you to understand exactly what's going on in your nervous system. So I want to do a little bit of hierarchy here to explain that in Dr Porges' organizing principles around polyvagal theory he has organized our nervous system hierarchically as it matches our body. So it's kind of like from here, head, top of my chest, the top of my head, then it's my heart and my lungs and then below that it is my diaphragm, my digestive system, my genital organs, all below that, okay. That hierarchy is that when you are at the top of that in that head part, you have your left prefrontal cortex on board. That means you have thinking, you have language, you have rational choices, you have nuance, you have the ability to actually say to yourself life is a banquet and I could choose anything here. Okay.
Speaker 2:Once you have any sense of your nervous system detecting danger in the world around you, you move from this place of what I would call flow, okay. You move from that flow of ventral vagal down into what we would call your sympathetic nervous system. And this is fight or flight. And probably most people could say that they have a preferred pathway. Either fight is my thing or flight is my thing. And so in my marriage my husband would say fight would be his thing and I would say flight is my thing, okay, I want to get out of there as fast as possible with as little happening as we can.
Speaker 2:When I do what I already know how to do in flight, okay, or in my sympathetic nervous system, where my heart is actually beating faster, my breath is probably getting shallower, my body temperature might be shifting.
Speaker 2:Okay, when I do what I know how to do next and it doesn't resolve those physical sensations, then I do the next thing, that I know how to do, the next thing, and as I do things in my sympathetic response to this situation, and it does not resolve it, that's when I begin to drop down this hierarchy into shutdown, and shutdown is a state of collapse. This is where my muscles become lax. There is a feeling of despair. Life is impossible. Nothing I do can change anything, and it has its own sense of how I experience it in my body. Maybe you feel like you're literally something dropping into a pit of your stomach. Your heart rate probably slows down here. All of these things are just biologically happening based on what our nervous system is experiencing. On what our nervous system is experiencing. And if you want to navigate your nervous system, then you do it through two small, simple things breath and movement, breath and movement.
Speaker 1:So let's really highlight these things. It's so interesting to me that you're talking about breath and movement because I think that my, my experience is that when I teach people about breath, it feels a lot like yeah, yeah, yeah, but I had, I have to say, or I didn't have time for that, or whatever. Whatever the excuse is and the power, the power of the breath, is so important. Please tell us more about that.
Speaker 2:So I want to go back to your couple who you have saying to each other you said this.
Speaker 2:No, I said that. And I would, as the therapist sitting there, as a polyvagal, informed, imago relationship therapist, I would stop and say let's just notice what's going on in your body right now, and if they're getting more and more agitated, or if one of them is getting agitated and the other is starting to withdraw, we're going to notice literally. Tell me about your heart rate. What are you noticing about that? Just educating them and giving them a chance to practice that. What do you notice about your breath? Sometimes somebody will say I'm holding my breath. Oh good, notice that. Whatever, they're going to give us a little bit of information. And what I want you to remember is that you cannot go from the top of your nervous system in that state of social engagement and flow to the bottom of it without passing through that center part. Even if you do that instantaneously, okay, you have to go from that parasympathetic engagement, through sympathetic, energized mobilization, into that parasympathetic collapse okay.
Speaker 1:So, haley, let me. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I really think this is important for our listeners, because what if we put this in the frame that they're not with a therapist? That couple is at home. I said this. You said that they're about to get into it. Okay.
Speaker 2:So that moment of noticing and naming, my heart is racing or I feel angry, or I'm clenching my fists or my body has tensed up. I don't care what you notice, or maybe it's the story that you notice. You always say that I'm wrong or you always do this. That's the story that I'm running in my head. This, that's the story that I'm running in my head. Whatever it is that can help you notice, if you can pay attention to. When you're in flow, the story is a story of connection. It's a story that says I turn towards you.
Speaker 2:When you're in sympathetic, it's a story of activation, action, mobility and disconnection. And when you're down there at the bottom of your ladder and dorsal, it's a story of collapse and despair. So you notice, like what's the story I'm telling myself, where am I in my nervous system and what do I need to do to move from wherever I am to where I want to go? Okay, so if what I want to do is just move from collapse up to I can be present and engage with you here and stick it out and fight this out, then, like, how do I do that? Using breath and movement? Okay, so when I'm working with couples, I map their nervous system so that they can go home and really start to know it.
Speaker 2:The more you can befriend your nervous system, the more you can tell yourself and believe that here is no bad place in my nervous system. Your survival is brilliant, it is completely brilliant, and it has gotten you this far, and if you want to do something new, you've got to move up into connection. That's really it. So the more we can help them to notice, name it and then to actually begin this like let's try this breath. So I would be giving couples breaths to try, and they are not the breath that we all think of. Everybody says take a deep breath and let it out. If you're in collapse or you're in sympathetic chances are. What you actually need is to increase your heart rate, to increase your breath, to move the adrenaline and cortisol in your system out, and the way we do that is by raising our heart rate, and so I have all kinds of different breaths that I offer people that I would say show us one Now, let's just teach us one of your favorite.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to teach you two. Okay.
Speaker 2:One is four sips and a puff. So it's just that idea of going four sips and a puff so you sip in, sip in, sip in, sip in, puff out and see if you can do those four sips quickly. So it's like what?
Speaker 1:do you feel in your heart? I think I felt some warmth in my heart. I felt a little bit calmer. What you're saying is, when I want to move from that place of despair, I really need to get that energy, the heart rate up. And when you first said it, I thought to myself boy, when I have been in despair. When you first said it, I thought to myself, boy, when I have been in despair, what do I normally do? I think I stay in the bed. I might watch something, be very passive, sort of allow the energy to just let me sink and then maybe wallow a little. Right. But what you're suggesting, if I really want to leave that state so that I can reconnect with my partner, I need to do something to my nervous system to energize it. And that four sips and a puff is really one great exercise. I love that. It's small.
Speaker 2:When I'm down there laying in my bed, all posied up and like everything, I just stay here. It's hard to do something big, but I could just try four sips and a puff.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, and I love that. What is your second one?
Speaker 2:So the second one would be if I were in my sympathetic nervous system and I wanted to discharge all of that adrenaline and cortisol that's like cruising through me. And so in this one, anything that you do with your arms above your heart is going to actually move your heart faster. So we start by putting your elbows and your wrists together in front of your face and above your heart, and as you breathe in, you will open up to goalposts and as you breathe out you will press it out, so it looks like this and then press out, and you do that four or five times.
Speaker 1:If you can't see us, your fists are tight, your elbows are bent, your heart is open. Elbows, wrists and palms together In and out five times, inhaling on the out breath.
Speaker 2:Out, out and exhaling as you close the doors, so you open the doors, you inhale.
Speaker 1:As you collapse, you exhale. I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Did you notice how it felt? So the question I always ask in polyvagal is was that appealing to my nervous system? Was that neutral for my nervous system? Was that unappealing for my nervous system?
Speaker 1:It was appealing. It was appealing and it really like shifts. The energy is what I experience. Yeah, energy, I feel a little, I guess the word might be lighter, a little lighter. Yeah, energy, I feel a little, I guess the word might be lighter.
Speaker 2:A little lighter.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We know from fMRIs, Coco, that when your sympathetic fight or flight kicks in, when you move down that hierarchy into a survival state, your left prefrontal cortex literally goes dark. So these are in the MRIs in which people are actually doing things, so they can see people being okay. Then the sympathetic kicks in and they see that part of the brain go dark and that is why you don't do anything new in survival, because the thinking part of your brain is not online. And so we are inviting and you don't have to be completely in a ventral place, but just have an anchor in this idea of curiosity or playfulness, something that brings us that keeps like, oh, but I've still got a way to get back there, okay, that you can actually kick in so that you can work your way back up, because it's the smallest movement and or breath that moves you up or down your ladder, Okay.
Speaker 1:I wanted to give you this example and tell me what you think. So I would say that I definitely used to live in my head. I don't think I knew when you were talking about. When you ask people, you know how. What sensation are you feeling in your body? I don't know that I could have identified that sensation. Are you feeling in your body? I don't know that I could have identified that, yeah, and so I knew what I was thinking all the time, where, if you said how do you feel, I might be able to identify that.
Speaker 1:But as far as like what sensations? And what I began to notice when I first began to do this work was, oh my gosh. So when I go into, when I'm really feeling shut down or that I almost like a freeze response, I can feel it in my throat and I can't talk, and normally, as you know, I'm pretty verbal. So when this happens, it's as if I'm paralyzed, and so what I have learned to do is notice when that begins to start happening in my throat, so that I can interrupt it before I am completely shut down or I can't engage. Even if I want to share with you, like maybe we've had a disagreement, I can't do it unless I can identify that and get through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not a switch that you can flip. Once that has arrived, you're going to have to gently move yourself back, and one of the things that I encourage individuals in a relationship to do is to share with their partner what happened right before this in my body. We always think in polyvagal, in three kind of realms inside in my body, what happened in the space around me, in my world, okay, what happened between me and you, and you just keep walking back in little tiny steps what was right before that? Because you were okay at some point in time, and so can we just follow the pathway backwards to see how did I get here? Because, even if it seems instantaneous, there were little tiny things that were happening.
Speaker 1:So we think that's really important, right, because the throat didn't close up. That wasn't the first thing that happened. Is what you're saying, that there were tiny little things that led me to that? But until I start paying attention to that inside of me and even tell my partner, hey, this is what happens to me and this is what I've had to do with Kevin is to say I'm kind of speechless right now. I need 15 minutes to kind of collect myself, because otherwise what I used to do is just go away and not talk. And then that was agonizing for the people that I loved, because they didn't know when I was coming back, when really I was just scared.
Speaker 2:Exactly and doing what your biology said to do it is. I think the thing I love the most about polyvagal theory is it depathologizes what's going on between couples, because it's just our biology doing what it best knows how to do. If we can stop saying it's a character trait or it's a way that you are, it's like, oh, biology kicked in there and we have to remind ourselves that our biology is doing what it already knows how to do. Okay, that piece of wanting to do something different, you have to actually step in to say like I want to be curious about this because I want to do something different. So the sooner I can interrupt my pattern, the better. And so it's not when my throat closes up, but it's when I recognize when this is going on in the world around me.
Speaker 2:I'm more likely to go to that throat closing up or when this is happening between you and I this is what's going to come next for me and to like say, oh, can I interrupt it sooner? Can I get in there sooner to say hey, can I interrupt it sooner? Can I get in there sooner to say hey? Let's take a moment here. Let's meet in the space between us. Let's take a moment to really connect and co-regulate by doing the nonverbal piece of just looking into each other's eyes and beaming out and receiving all that we love and adore about each other. The eye gazing piece particularly at 18 inches apart, where mirror neurons are firing and I know you because my brain gets to imprint with you that, I think, is one of the most powerful things that we can offer our couples. Go home and do that.
Speaker 1:So the 18 inches. This is important for our listeners, so one of the things that you can do, even if you're really your nervous system is activated, is to interrupt it by looking at your partner 18 inches away, eye to eye, and just gaze.
Speaker 2:With a warm, soft welcoming gaze. Whatever is going on, I am going to try to bring myself to the space of being warm. So holding hands, I think, is really valuable because we get the energetic pulse of each other within each other's hands. But the 18 inches apart, two things happen. One, mirror neurons fire, and two, the rest of the world drops away. That 18 inches is just you and me.
Speaker 1:I love that. You know, haley, what I'm thinking as we're talking about this really important topic is how powerful it is that we can change, and you and I share the love of our recovery community. We love Imago, and this polyvagal makes so much sense to marry those three paradigms is powerful. The idea, when we think, even about recovery, that the first thought isn't to go get a drink. The first thought might be to take a bath or read a book, but that doesn't happen overnight and you're helping us see how the neuroplasticity of the brain, that we may have these adaptations for good reason, but that we can change. We can really change the way we think we could change, the way we feel and the way we behave. I just I love that hope that it gives people and I think what also was so important that you said is that we have to be really willing to get curious and playful if we want something different from what we already have.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that in all three of those things Amago, Relationship Therapy, Recovery and Polyvagal connection is the solution. Connection is the solution. That is the antidote, that is the prescription. That is where we will actually be able to be our best, most sense of ourselves in connection to ourselves, to the world, to other people.
Speaker 1:So, Haley, I know that you've given us the gift of your time and I don't want to take any more time. Haley, I know that you've given us the gift of your time and I don't want to take any more time, but I do want to have you back. I'm very excited about talking to you more about recovery, addiction, polyvagal. I feel like there's so much more. Maureen Brine and I are working on something with Mike Borash around addiction and would love for you to be a part of that. So more to come with Haley Hoffman if she's willing.
Speaker 2:I'd love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's such an exciting way to help people, especially with so much addiction in our world and the anxiety, the collective anxiety, that we're all in, whether politically you are on one side or the other. I hate that phrase but for lack of better words, right now we are living in a really anxious time.
Speaker 2:We are living in a really anxious time. It is contagious, and this is that piece where you know we have the power to actually be the energy that is in the space between us. We have that every, each and every one of us, and I think I was saying it to you earlier. I said it to somebody earlier today that my job at the moment is to show up and be there for the people in my life and to remind them of who they are, to be the mirror of. I know you and even while you are anxious, I also know that you are courageous. Even while you are worried, I also know that you're doing things, and to mirror that back to each other again and again and again. Mirroring is perhaps the most effective polyvagal tool that we have.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited to hear that. I'm really excited and I think, as we're closing, I'm thinking about a friend who we have very different political views and I'm thinking about how much I respect him as a person and how I really want to be a part of mirroring back for him that I believe that, even though we think differently about what's going on, I don't think we differ so much about what we want to happen in the world. I think it's just about how we get there and I think all of us need to remember that we probably want many, many of the same things. It's just really, it's just hard to focus on that during these difficult times.
Speaker 2:So, yes, when fear speaks louder than love, it is hard.
Speaker 1:Yes, another area. We're in love Course in miracles. That's right. Well, thank you, haley, and thank you to our guests. We really hope that you learned so much from Haley today about how you can stay in connection. What do you do when you're in disconnection, and not to say it's not your fault because we have to take responsibility, but that there are ways through it that we can practice, and I love the simple concept of what if we invite joy and playfulness into our relationship. So, thank you so much, haley, and thank you everybody, and have a wonderful day. We'll see you next time on the Relationship Blueprint. Unlock your power of connection.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
