Why Toxic Relationships "Feel Impossible" to Leave with Dr. Stephen Paul Edwards

A toxic relationship can feel like love, adrenaline, and destiny all at once — and that’s exactly why it’s so hard to leave.

In this episode of The Relationship Blueprint, Coco Kowal sits down with Dr. Stephen Paul Edwards, PhD in spiritual counseling and author of The Venus Fly Trap, to unpack the real mechanics behind toxic relational dynamics: childhood conditioning, shame, emotional shutdown, and the way we chase intensity when vulnerability feels unsafe.

Stephen shares a rare and deeply honest male perspective on heartbreak, control, identity collapse, and what it costs to keep performing strength.

Together, we explore the belief that changed his life:

“Nothing happens to you. Everything happens for you.”

Not as a way to excuse harmful behavior, but as an invitation to step out of victimhood and begin asking deeper questions about boundaries, attachment, self-worth, and the patterns we unconsciously repeat.

Stephen explains how chaotic relationships can act like mirrors — reflecting the parts of ourselves we haven’t yet healed — and why the “same person in a different body” keeps appearing until the pattern changes.

We also dive into:

•  Trauma bonding and emotional dependency 
•  Masculinity and emotional repression 
•  The connection between thoughts, beliefs, behaviors, and consequences 
•  Why vulnerability is often the doorway to real transformation 
•  How to rebuild self-trust after losing yourself in a relationship 

If you’ve been trying to make sense of a toxic relationship, break destructive cycles, or reconnect with who you truly are, this conversation offers both insight and hope.

✨ Dr. Stephen Paul Edwards has created exclusive resources for The Relationship Blueprint audience:

📖 Complimentary access to the first 3 chapters of The Venus Fly Trap: Sex, Lies & Repercussion: First Free 3 Chapters

🌿 Learn more about Dr. Stephen’s coaching and counseling sessions HERE.

If this episode resonates, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

What pattern are you ready to break next?

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hi, welcome back to the Relationship Blueprint where you unlock your power of connection. Today I'm going to have with me a man named Dr. Stephen Paul Edwards. He has his PhD in spiritual counseling, but that is not how his story began. He is the author of the best-selling novel, The Venus Fly Trap. His story unfolds as he tells us about his old identity as a power-driven businessman through the pain of a toxic relationship and a spiritual awakening leading him to a transformational experience. What does he see now that he can look in the rearview mirror of what his life was like and how it has become what it is today? So join us on the relationship blueprint to find out more. I'm truly excited to hear a man's point of view of a broken heart. Welcome back, everyone, to the Relationship Blueprint, where you unlock your power of connection. And today I have someone really special that's going to talk about a very unique perspective that I don't get enough of on our show. It's a male's perspective. And Dr. Stephen Paul Edwards, he wants me to call him Stephen, is the author of The Venus Fly Trap. And it really is the story of his journey through power and control of really successful businessman through a falling in love and going through a toxic relationship with a powerful, painful breakup. And then a transformation, a spiritual awakening that has led him on a whole new path where he's helping others. And this book is a great beginning to look at how your path could be changed if you're in a relationship where you seem to feel like you can't leave, but you know you should. So welcome, Stephen, to the Blueprint.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Thank you, Coco. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to this. I think it's going to be fun and exciting. And I think your lady audience, which I'm imagining most of the your audience are ladies. So I'm always like to be in the presence of ladies, will get something of value out of that they can apply in their lives right away. So it'll be a valuable time they spend.

Childhood Control And Learned Shutdown

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Well, I'm hoping that I have uh a male audience. Since I'm a couples therapist, um, I have a lot of men. But I don't have enough male guests, is really where I'm I'm going. I really love to hear the male perspective. One thing I've learned, Stephen, is that when I was working with individuals in the individual paradigm, I heard one person's story. So if you were coming to me in your previous relationship and I only heard your part of the story, I was really missing a whole half of a story. And so I love working with couples and helping them understand that both of their stories can be true, but also what's the possibility of seeing things differently? So I'm really happy you're here. I'd love for you to talk about who you were before this spiritual transformation. Will you tell us about that, Stephen?

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah. From when?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

From a child or you know, yeah, I'd like to. Well, one of the questions I really had when you were talking about how you were so driven by power and control and that vulnerability was really not in your wheelhouse. You know, I I think our culture speaks loudly of how much we actually program men to not be vulnerable and to not be able to really get in touch with their emotions. But I also think our childhood has a lot to do with those messages too. So kind of messages did you get as a boy about being a man?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yeah, okay, good. You're right. There's the society side of it, and there was the upbringing side of it. So the upbringing side of it, I lived in a very controlling environment. No kidding, right? So, and I felt like I couldn't move, you know. So if I was in the house, I felt like I was working on glass all the time. So that caused me to push obviously all my emotions down. And and as you know, your practice emargo talks about it's all the mirrors, right? So, and those mirrors are created in the first seven years of our life, right? You know, there's a famous pastor that once said, Give me your boy until he's seven years old and I will show you the man, right? So it's all formed in those early years. We don't realize that. And we don't realize we're going through a traumatic childhood because we don't talk about it. So we think every other kid in school is having a great time, everything is perfect for them, and we're going through this trauma, right? So I think, you know, when I tell people or people tell me, you know, they've gone through a traumatic childhood, I said, Oh, you too, like the rest of us, right? So, but anyway, so that caused me to push all these emotions down. So when I went to bed at night, I would bang my head on the pillow until I was exhausted and fell asleep. So there's this tremendous pressure going inside of me because, as you know, all emotions are valid. If you express them to the full, you'll come back to peace, right? But when you don't, and you hold them in the cells of your body, they're gonna come out in areas where you don't want the two, usually, right? Predominantly in your relationships, right? So when I was 16, I had my first manic episode, and I was taken to, I call it an asylum, but it was a mental institution, right? Where they proceeded to bring me down from the high, the mania that I'd experienced, which was amazing, right? I didn't want to come down from there. But they they got me down, they used uh electro-convulsive therapy, which you probably know what that is, right? I don't think they use it anymore. Yeah, they have started using it again, but yeah, no, no, yeah, which is crazy because it's not good, right? I I've been through it, I know what happens, uh, and it's dangerous, right? It's dangerous. So I, you know, part of my memory is burned away as a result of it. But anyway, that's not the point. So I went through this uh along with other traumatic experiences, which I talk about in the book, uh, which I never let anybody you talk about vulnerability, right? That's not something you're gonna talk about, especially not in social situations, or even with people that know you, or even people in the workplace. You know, when you go to a job, they used to have a question on the application. Have you ever had mental illness? Well, I'm not gonna say yes, right? And then they're gonna because they're not gonna hire me, right? So again, it was saying this is frowned upon. This is not acceptable, this is not normal.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

And it's shame. There you go.

Shame And Hiding Mental Health

SPEAKER_01 6:22

That was the the shame, the shame of it, right? Um, and so this, and along with other experiences I had, caused the shame, caused this me building these walls around me that I could hide behind and hoping that no one ever would feel, but no one ever would find all the same. So this relationship that most people would call a toxic relationship, and it was, was a gift, as all toxic relationships are, if you see them that way. If you understand that nothing happens to you, everything happens for you, right? And that everybody is a mirror of you, right? And they're mirroring back to you parts of yourself that you haven't either haven't integrated or accepted or have been afraid to live in your own life.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

You know, I want to pause you right there because that was one of the my favorite quotes that you said. I think it's so incredibly powerful. Will you say it one more time for our listeners?

Toxic Love As A Mirror

Chaos With Police And Broken Trust

SPEAKER_01 7:16

That nothing nothing happens to you. Everything happens for you. It was one of the most powerful transformative beliefs of my life. Changed everything. Because at that point, you can no longer be a victim. You no longer have that choice because you've accepted the fact that it's somehow happening for you. So if you want, I could give you an example of how that happens in the book, right? By the way, by the way, I appreciate you saying that I went through this experience and then I decided to get into personal development in a spiritual manner. I was in that for 30 years, and I still had this experience, right? Because the universe, universe, God, whatever you want to call it, is gonna bring into your life what you need. And I'd been running away from myself my whole life, focused on business, purpose. You know, we then it transferred into personal development and you know, going seven days a week, flying all over the world and never really looking at myself. And so the universe said, you're gonna stop and you're gonna look at this stuff because you need to. It's gonna improve what you do, but more than anything, it's gonna help you become more of who you really are. So one of the purposes of the book is to say, listen, if you're in a toxic relationship, it's okay. And if you're not ready to come out of it, it's okay. You will be ready when you're ready. And if anybody pulls you out too soon, they're not helping you. Because you need to go through these experiences to understand these things. And if you come out of it without doing it, and you say, like a lot of people do, I'm not going to be in a relationship for six months, right? And they don't, they're not in a relationship. Then they go back and they find a relationship and they meet the same person in a different body. It's because they haven't done the work on themselves, right? This example, I'll give you that what I this belief became very helpful. So it was a tumultuous relationship. And, you know, I would try and set boundaries and she'd just walk all over them, right? So she was born into tremendous wealth. She was used to getting whatever she wanted and doing whatever she wanted, right? So to try and get control over that for someone who even someone who's controlling was a nightmare, right? But she was teaching me to stop controlling. Accept people for who they are. And if they're not the right person, don't try and make them into the right person, right? Duh, right? So anyway, so we're having one of these tumultuous uh situations. She's run off, gone on a drug binge, she's stolen my car. I don't know where the hell she is, and I'm traveling four days a week, so I had to leave, right? So I lock up the house and uh she would always leave windows open so she could get in if she wanted to, right? So anyway, I locked all these windows. It's Friday night, I don't know, it's like two in the morning. And she comes home, she comes back to the house, right? And she's trying to get into one of the windows she left open and they'll all lock. So she just doesn't matter. She just smashes the window, right? She's going in one way or the other, right? So that sets off the alarm. So the police come out, and there'd been a couple of incidents in the community where the police had been slow to react. And so the director of the community had been on with the chief of police, said, This is not acceptable. We pay all these da-da-da. So that meant they were going to come in super hot, right? We'll show you, right? We'll be there and we'll be in force. So they had like six squad squad cars, these SUVs. They had the police dogs running through everybody's garden, right? And she's sitting outside in this car, and all the police are like, you know, she's beautiful, right? So she's getting whatever she wants. So then they call me and they say, Look, she's here, right? We're gonna let her in that. I said, do not let her in that house. Whatever you do, do not let her in there because I know it's not gonna be good. So they said, Well, let me call you back. Now, this was not the first time they've been out to the house by any stretch of the imagination. At one point, I'd even said, you know, they should probably open a station in the community because they hear that often, right? You know, it's got crazy. So he calls me back and he goes, We talked to the chief of police. They called the chief of police, they got him out of bed, right? What should we do? And uh he said, he's told us we should let her in. So all that weekend I'm thinking about, you know, what what a mess it's gonna be when I get there, right? So anyway, I get home and I go in the house and everything's fine. So I go in the kitchen, I put the kettle on. You know, English tea, right? Come back in the kitchen, kettle hasn't boiled. Look behind the kettle, she's cut the she's cut the wire. Now I know her. That's not where it ends, right? She cut the cord for every single electrical appliance in the house, right? And then I said to myself, I know that's not gonna be it either, right? So talk about a trauma, right? When I was a kid, my mother used to send me to school in school clothes that were somewhere between five and ten sizes too big, right? So they would just drown me, right? And of course, you know kids are merciless, right? So they teased and humiliated, and the teachers weren't any better then, right? So they used to ridicule me as well. So by the time I was nine years old, I was buying my own clothes, right? And so clothes became very important to me. I always wanted to look immaculate and because I didn't want to be laughed at anymore. All in the subconscious, right? So now I'm making a lot of money at this time, right? So I've got this wardrobe that is unbelievable, right? And I go, oh no, no. So I go to the closet and again, it it looks fine. And then I pull back the clothes. She had cut them all up, right? Everything, right? And my shoes, my shoes, right? So my point is, I'm not gonna tell you at that point, Coco, I said, Well, this has happened for me. No, that's not realistic, right? I was like, I was angry, I was frustrated for quite a while. But eventually eventually, and I I think I blacked out because I can't remember everything that I did or said. But fortunately I was on my own, so I could let it out, right? So anyway, so finally I sit down, it's like 24, 36 hours later, and I sit down in the armchair, look out the window, and I say, Okay, okay, this happened for me. This is gonna be good. Explain to me, because I talk to myself, you know. I say, I because I say to people when I'm doing events, I say, I talk to myself, and so do you, because you just said to yourself, Do I talk to myself, right? So we all talk to ourselves. And I said, Well, you know, how the hell has this happened for me? And it's a process, it doesn't happen right away, the light bulb doesn't go on, right? Because you got to calm down emotionally, right? So I go, okay, well, it's just clothes. The brain's not having that, right? You go, yeah, but they were really nice clothes, right? So it's a process, you go back and forth. But what I got to eventually, attachment, attached to those clothes.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

And of course you were.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

But I but but it became part of my identity, right? Of course. That happened when I was.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Your story is so powerful about you know being dressed with clothing that big and that everyone teased you, everybody in your life, except for your parents, maybe, because they were thinking that that was somehow the okay thing to do. But it makes so much sense that you'd be so attached to clothes and shoes. I get that.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah. But my point is about that in this situation with this relationship with this amazing woman, and she is amazing, and I and I did I did fall in love with her and I still love her. I'm just never gonna let her back in my life, but I still love her. I can love her from afar. But anyway, my point is But this relationship gave me so many gifts. If I hadn't had that belief, I would still be angry to today for doing something to me instead of realizing she was doing it for me. And part of my beliefs on the spiritual side are that you know, we come into this life and we have a soul group. People come into our lives many, many times to help us experience what we've come here to experience. And she was a master teacher for me, a master teacher. The relationship was never meant to end. And I kind of knew that from the beginning, but I was gonna have fun with it while I could, right? Until I couldn't anymore, right? And so she came in in so many ways. There were so many mirrors, but one of the greatest gifts is she gave me my freedom because she was so authentic and she was vulnerable. She could be vulnerable at times. She gave me the inspiration to do the same, to just be who I really am, right? And to do that, you gotta let go of the fear of anybody finding anything out about you and just let it go, speak it out. And so I didn't know that before I did it, but once I'd done it, I was like, you know, I've got nothing to worry about now.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

What did you do it though? I I'm one of so you her vulnerability allowed you to see that you had not been vulnerable and that you were able to do that with her or after this event?

Identity Attachment And The Clothes Story

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Both. So we were very vulnerable together. And we, you know, we talked about the fact that, you know, I told you I was in an asylum when I was 16, so was she. So we had a lot of these things in common and a lot of the same trauma we went through when we were kids, right? Yeah. Uh which also connected us, right? So some of these mirrors were so powerful. That's just one example. So we could talk about that. You know, we could talk about that openly and not be ashamed and not have any uh issues around it, you know, without reaching it. And also from a sexual side, we had a lot of mirrors from sexual and all kinds of mirrors, right? Yes. Um, which also connected us together and created a trust, right? A powerful trust, which created a very strong foundation for the love to flow. Now, there's a lot of other psychological issues that we haven't talked about yet that come up later. So there was a strong connection as well as a strong, there were things that we had that were repel that were repellent, right? Like both trying to control each other, right? So that creates the hilarity, the hilarity. It's extremely funny what we got up to and we did, you know, like the police coming over like that, and her getting them wrapped around her finger and getting what she wanted, you know. So, and we had so many incredible experiences, traveling, but there was always drama. There was always drama, and usually, not always, but usually involving the law would come involved in it somewhere. So there was good and bad, right? And so you you'd get to an end of a chapter and you'd be going, Well, I guess that's over, right? There's no way back from there, right? And then you turn over the page and it'd be like, They're back together? What are you crazy? You know what I mean? You're if you're always you're always getting something out of it until you're not. And when you're not, it becomes a little easier to start to let go. I think one of the questions you had was, Well, how did you let go, right? Okay, well, uh, without doing a spoiler here, there were things that were literally out of my control. Look at that right control, right? I couldn't control it. Uh, and out of her control that forced the situation, right? Now, having said that, it still wasn't easy. So I the therapist, right? Of course, right? So, and and she's saying to me, Stephen, look, you gotta make a decision here because not only you're losing everything, but you're losing your mind. And if you continue, you are gonna lose your mind. And at that point, it's gonna be really hard to come back. So the truth of the matter is she needs help, but she'll never get it. And the reason she'll never get it is because when she was in that asylum when she was sixteen and she couldn't get out, she's terrified of going to counselling and being put back in there. She'll never go and she's told you that in a million ways, right? I mean, we went to therapy together once, but she only went to give it uh, you know, uh what do you call it? Um she was never really gonna do it, right? She was gonna keep herself out of it. She would do it and then something would happen that wouldn't be her fault, and we can't do that again.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

She checked the box, but there was no intention to to do the work.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

She checked the box, there you go. So in the end, uh I had to let her go. And I didn't want to, right? Sure. But I knew that if I didn't, nothing was ever gonna change. And the chaos was untenable. It was untenable. It was exciting at first, but eventually like, I can't even I'm exhausted, right? I can't do it anymore. So I gotta let her go. But it was hard, and I cut off complete ties, everything. And then people would say to me, See, I went through my healing process, right? Which isn't overnight either, right? To get yourself back because as you mentioned in the beginning, I lost my identity. You don't realize it's happening, but little by slow you give pieces of yourself away. You stop doing things that are important to you, and everything is for them, right? And eventually you don't even remember who you were. So anyway, at the end it was uh you know a healing process, and then people would say, Well, do you think you're over it? I would say, I have no idea. But they'd say, What do you mean you've no idea? Well, the only way I'll ever know is I'm if I'm presented with the same situation again and then I gotta see how I react. So as it would happen, she contacted me again, right? But I was not interested. I didn't even respond. Not to be mean, but to say I'm not gonna lead her down the road that there is a possibility. I'm not interested anymore. I'm no longer that person. I shared that person in that experience, and I grieved it, because there was a lot of good things about that person, but I also had to rebirth and allow the space for me that can set boundaries, me that can stay in their own power, me that is never going to give up what's important to me, me that is going to uh be there for somebody else, but not to the extreme where I lose myself.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

And I'm I'm wondering if, as you look back, you know, the whole idea of when you were sharing about your childhood and walking on glass or eggshells. And uh I'm wondering, you know, this is like such a reenactment, this relationship of the childhood trauma. So other people may be able to just walk away from that right away. But if it's part of your story, it feels like love. This is what you knew to be love from your parents. This chaos, this no, tell me you're I'm seeing your face, you're thinking no.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Well, actually, I didn't mean to say I wasn't really thinking no. I was thinking, I was thinking, that's a good I'm contemplating it. I'm thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, familiar love, we if children are abused, right, they associate the abuse with love. Although they don't like the abuse, they don't want it, but it's all they've known before the age of seven. So that's an ability to equate the two. So when I'm find someone, my mirror, my magical mirror, and I can't let go of them, this toxic relationship, I'm really, really trying to heal the parts of me that I couldn't heal with those people. That raise me, but she's an adult and she's given me all this good stuff. So if she really loves me, she'll give me all of it. So this unspoken, you know, trauma is playing out in the new relationship. So when you just shared that when she came back to you and you could have stepped into it and you said, No, I that I'm not that person who wants that anymore. Although you still, you said, had feelings for her. That's a that's a hard thing to do. How did you manage that? Was that part of your transformation or had that not really happened yet? Your spiritual awakening?

Leaving For Good And Healing After

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Well, a couple of things there, because what you said really made me think about that, and I and I would probably need to contemplate it more. Um, at the same time, I this was I I'd just gone through my fourth divorce, right? So, and I knew that I found the love of my life in the first first marriage I had, and that's a complicated story, it's explained in the book too. So I don't know that I felt love from Tomos. I don't think he I don't felt like it was love. It was obsession and it was an addiction, right? Definitely she was my heroine, right? I mean, in terms of the drug, not my heroine the other way.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I know what you mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah, yeah, I know. So anyway, so that was I didn't I don't think she's capable of love, right? And I know that I am, right? So, but I was having an exciting time. I was addicted to the excitement more than anything, right? The adventure, the fact that there was no responsibility, there was no accountability, right? Which is fun for me because my life had been so controlled, so disciplined. You know, when I'm going out and speaking, I get up at five in the morning, I meditate, uh, I then go work out, I come back, have a juice, get into the borroom about 8 30, then starts at nine, finish at seven, go have dinner, go to bed, and do it all again. And then it just got to the point where I was just tired. I was just and no, and I I would do that over and over again, by the way, because it was also part of running away, right? Putting a part of running away for myself, right? Um and then the universe would do something. I just I would just destroy it all, it would all collapse, right? And I'd reinvent myself again. Which is where the running away part actually had benefits. Everything happens for a reason, everything happens for you, because I was able to m go somewhere else and reinvent myself without having the identity that I had someone else project somewhere else projected onto me. So it gave me the space to rebirth myself many times over, right? Which ended up having a profound effect on my ability to do what I do. But eventually I had to stop. I had to stop and I had to look at these things to for myself and for the work I do. So um no, I'm open to that possibility. I hadn't looked at it that way, and I'll definitely contemplate that, I'll meditate on that. But I even write in the book, I don't think that she was capable of love because of this issue that she has, which we're not gonna get into right now. And that's not blaming, it's just you know, if you break your arm, you broke your arm, right? It's not that's not a judgment, it just is up the way it is, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:04

I have a friend who says, Don't go to Lowe's for bread. You know, just you know, it's that simple.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

That's a great one. I'm that's really good. I'm gonna steal that.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

You know, I stole it from her.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

You're well. Yeah, yeah, that's great. I love that. Yeah, yes, don't go to Lowe's for bread. Can you imagine? And a guy would be running around for like an hour, right? Determined not to ask anyone. Right, you know, they'd ask an old lady wondering by Have you seen any bread around here? Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah, so it's there's a lot of there's a lot of I mean, if you look at the cover of the book, it looks like uh an erotic romance, which it was at one level, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Sure, the excitement, but the excitement will always I always tell my couples, you'll never if an affair can never marriage can never compete with an affair because the affair means I don't know what's gonna happen next. When will we touch again? All of that, um, all those chemicals in our bodies, serotonin and oxytocin, they're flooding and they feel that way when we're in love, but you had tons of that going on within you, and that's pretty addictive.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah, for sure. I'm actually really good at affairs. I'm not really good at marriage.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

We'd all be good at that. Exactly. Because we all love the drug.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

You know, I would say to my partners, it's not just four marriages, a lot of other relationships as well, including this one. So I'm addicted to the honeymoon period, right? Like you said, well, we all, right? So, you know, now I'm able to make different decisions in my life through these lessons. I recognize that I'm unmarriageable. I made up the word, right? I'm not, I can't be married, right? It's like, okay, finally, right? You know, how many times, right? So, but we live in a society that says you should be. And I'm not against marriage. I think it's fine for some people. But my perception is, and what my experience has been, probably due to me, right? Because people say you married four times. Four different four women, right? Yeah. What was wrong with them all? Well, it's a m it's a question of mathematics. You got four marriages, and there was only one constant in all those marriages. It was me, right? So it was me. So I would get to the point where I just couldn't be there anymore. I had to get out because I just think it was ever going to change. Now I could have, right? Maybe we should have come and seen you, right? Whatever. But I wasn't committed to being it anymore. And you know, when you're working with couples, both have got to be committed to want to make it work, because if only one, it isn't gonna work, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:31

You you worked so hard and did everything you knew how to do that you just like most people, why we have divorces because people get tired of trying. They feel like they've done everything they know how to do and they give out, you know? It's hard. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah. And so anyway, and I took responsibility for that and say, okay, well, what am I gonna do differently?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

I mean, I'm older now, right? So I mean, I've didn't start doing this last week, but I'll say I gotta, you know, make a decision for what's right for me now. I've I haven't been in a relationship for four years, right? And I'm not have no strong desire to be in one. I'm not against it. If it happened, it would happen. But I'm not definitely not gonna go online again. But I'm not I'm not gonna get in a relationship unless I feel like it's something that would be interesting and it would start slow and it would, you know, evolve, but it would do that at arm's length. I don't, not only do I not want to get married again, I don't want to live with anybody again. I enjoy my freedom. And I make this joke, but it's true. I enjoy having my own bed. And you go, what do you mean? Well, you know what, every time I was married, I had a girlfriend. We lived together. I don't know what if this is a women thing or this is just in my mind, but they want the whole bed. I would end up with the c on the corner almost falling off the bed, right? I got a king-sized bed that I can't enjoy. So now I like my bed, I like my bed, I like my freedom, which is what it's really all about, right? I like to be able to do what I want to do when I want to do with whom, right? And that's not fair to expect someone to put up with that, right? Because you've got to compromise, you've got to live together. And for me, that always became mundane. And what I found in relationships, which obviously you could change, but it just became where people start taking each other for granted.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yeah.

Marriage Fatigue And A Different Model

SPEAKER_01 29:11

You know? And you start off in the middle of the room and you list tight, and then little by slow, someone does something, and this is what starts to happen. And then you're at the other side, either side of the room, and you can't remember what happened or why. And then people start to complain about you or you them or whatever, and then you start talking about each other to your friends, and it's just all creating this negative environment. So, my idea, be interested to see what you think, right? Is if I do meet someone that I want to spend time with, right? We go out on dates. Maybe we go on a trip together, you know, and have adventures together. There's separation, maybe you see each other a couple of times a week or whatever it is, no, no fixed amount of time. But you've always got something new to talk about. You're always looking forward to seeing each other, right? And uh having fun together. And you're not carrying all that weight of the mundane of everyday living. And very often, again, not always, I'm I'm generalizing. I used to say, I don't I hate to generalize, which is always a good thing to say before you're going to generalize, right? But what I see a lot is that people don't even see each other when they're at home. You know, they're just like wandering around in this separate world, and then they got nothing to say to each other, and then they watch movies all the time, and they don't really focus on what's important to them anymore. And this sounds really negative, but I'm just saying this is what happened for me. And what I also did before Coco, which you already know, I'm not gonna tell you anything you don't already know, is that this pattern of giving myself up all the time was not new, right? So while I was in a marriage or relationship, I stopped doing the things that were important to me. Never gonna let that happen again, right? I'm gonna make sure that I do that. And that takes up a lot of my time and my energy. And I, you know, I've got a lot of things I'm passionate about and I enjoy doing, and I'm not gonna give that up.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah. I it's so funny because you're describing aory. You know, how we can come together where it's blissful, can't eat, can't sleep, can't stop having sex, and then everyone eventually ends up in that power struggle. And as you said, they're watching Netflix and not really connecting and talking about each other, and he's playing a lot of golf so that he can avoid being home, whatever. And then, and then you're right. There's so I don't know the percentage because it's hard to evaluate, but there are so few marriages that when I ask couples when they come into my office, do you know a couple that you really think, wow, I'd I'd like to have a relationship like theirs. Very few have said, like, oh well, my mom and dad, or you know, this couple we're friends with. And and so it is what you're saying is so valid, but I think it's because no one has taught us how. And the modern relationship has moved from, you know, the need to be married, right? There was a time when we needed to be married to function, right? You work, I stay at home, we raise kids, we need each other, we get through it, and divorce is bad, so we're gonna stay together. We've shifted in our culture to uh do I want to be with you?

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

And when that happens, it really gives people lots of doors, which I think can be a really good thing. But if they don't know how to get past that power struggle, you know, you're right, it's it's very dissatisfying and and really takes up too much of one's space in order to do all the things you're describing. Your energy is now helping other people walk through this journey that you went through. And there's nothing more powerful to me than a person who has walked through it, tell their story and share their story and help others through it. That's what I was so drawn to about your work is that you're not just writing a book, you're saying, this is my story. I want to hear yours. And I love when you said you like to help people look at their patterns because that's exactly what the blueprint is about. It's like, how do we look at our patterns and see how we are contributing to the mess in our relationship with ourselves or with food or with our loved one? So I want you to talk a little bit more about after this awakening or while you were awakening, how did you come to this place of helping others, writing your story and helping other people identify their patterns?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, well, okay. So, you know, I tell people, listen, you don't have a relationship problem. You have a pattern problem, right? And if you can change those patterns that are not serving you, first of all, we've got to identify them and that because aware it starts with awareness, right? So yeah, it's it's all about patterns. And then, so what was the question again?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, I I kind of went on and on. Let me break it down.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

It's fine. It was fine. It was a good question. I want to answer it. It was a great question.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Your awakening. Would you say that this awakening, as you said, it was part of your healing process, and and then it sounds like something very spiritual happened for you. Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Well, I had spiritual awakenings throughout my life. I mean, one of them was when I had the episode of mania, right? It was actually it wasn't really a problem. It was a spiritual breakthrough because I actually hit pretty close to bliss, but it's not that's not normal, right? And so they've tried to bring me back to what is considered normal. And I'd had other I've had other experiences. I had Satorai at one point where I just had instant awakening. But what it taught me is that's an experience and you can have uh, you know, a spiritual breakthrough or whatever, but it's not gonna be permanent. We live in a wave, it's energy, right? So you come in and out of anything, right? Your hope is you're gonna get back there, but you can't guarantee it. Um and you say, Well, what do you do to feel that? I go, I don't know. It kind of just happened, right? It was a part of what happened to me for me. Uh oh, and I'd gone, I mean I'm a PhD in spiritual counseling a long time before this happened, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I didn't know that.

Spiritual Awakening And Applied Wisdom

SPEAKER_01 34:57

I know, I know, right? So I've been a spiritual PhD at this point for over 20 years, right? So, and that was one of the things I wanted to say is look, I knew this stuff. There was nothing that I didn't know, but the universe put me in a place where I forgot it because of what the flaw was, the mirror, right, was gonna pull me out of that, right? And that's why I say to people, isn't if you're in a toxic relationship, you don't have to think you're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. You're going through an experience that if you will look at it through the eyes of it's happening for you, not in the not necessarily in the immediacy, but at some point, because you said, you know, it's a process, you know, you have an experience, and if you remembered all this stuff, you probably wouldn't have it, right? And at the end you can review it. So my point of saying that and explaining that in the book is that if someone with that amount of experience and, you know, working with Tony Robbins and working with all these amazing gurus, which I learned and a tremendous amount of wisdom from, and that can still happen, it's because you might learn that stuff, you might even be helping other people to get through what they're going through, but you got work to do too. You know, there's a lady I was on her podcast, it's a great podcast, it's called The Secret Lives of Therapists. So, yeah, I can relate to that, right? Yeah. So it's just a great it was a it's a great podcast and a great concept, right? Um, because I think it's important, and I and I know you do too, that when you're working with people, that you're real, you know, you've got real life experiences. I read a little bit about it, right? That helps you connect with people that you that you couldn't if you hadn't had that experience, right? Because whether people say it or not, they're thinking, but what do you know? How do you know that, right? So, you know, you can come from a place of let me tell you how I know, right? You know, I know because I've lived it. And that's what this gives me too, right? So I'd worked a long time in those arenas and I knew all that stuff, right? I've done all kinds of, you know, you've probably done a lot of the same stuff that you go through when you, you know, you're looking for answers and you do all these spiritual practices, go to some of these crazy events, and you do some powerful things and you have some amazing experiences. But they don't, that doesn't mean you've been through the experience of what somebody else is going through. And so what this has done is to give me the ability to relate at a much higher level. Because you know, when you've been through it, you can relate in ways that people haven't. They might have read books, they might know stuff, but they don't really own it until they experience it. So, you know, I say knowledge is not power, it's only potential power, and it only becomes powerful when you apply it. And when you apply it, it's no longer knowledge, then it's wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Then it's without that.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yeah, I love that. So now, today where you are, I know that you are going to share the first three chapters of the Venus Flytrap, and that will be on my podcast. And the other thing that you're you're really willing to do with individuals who hear this podcast and really want to look at their patterns, can you tell us a little bit about what you're offering?

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Sure. Just a clarification. So people can get the first three chapters for free if they want, but I've actually changed that to have you. Well, yeah, because um first three chapters of the book you don't know anything about. So what? So I've I've actually now got a guidebook on the seven signs of a toxic relationship. Okay. So you could know if you're in a toxic relationship, make sure you don't get in one, get out of one, right? And make sure you never go back into it again. Uh, which might be more helpful for people than just reading the first three chapters of a book they don't really know anything about, which is fine. Uh, and then if everybody wants to go deeper into their relationships and how they affect and how these patterns affect your life, then they can have a free or a complimentary, should I say, complimentary 30-minute consultation with me, and we can start, we can see if there's a connection, if they feel that you know my vibe fits theirs and uh make it because it is important who you choose as the person that's gonna help you, right? You've got to have the the connection, feel it in your heart, feel it in your soul. And we're not we're not right for everybody, right? We're not right. And uh, you know, I'm very committed to what I do, and I want people gonna be serious and feel that they can have that connection and do the the work because it's not I can't do it for you. Yeah, yeah. And it's not gonna happen until you're ready. So, you know, you've had this experience many times. People say we're ready and they're not, right? Yeah. And then, you know, they never come back or whatever happens, right? Because life gets in the with all the kinds of excuses. So, you know, I'm very careful with my time now, and I say, look, you know, there's nothing, no judgment here, but if you're not really ready to do the work, you know, then I I don't want to waste your time on mine. So why would I believe that you're committed? Right. What are you gonna prove to me? And they say, well, wait a minute, I'm paying you. I go, yeah, but you also pay to go to the gym, but you never go, right? So that doesn't mean anything, right? So anyway, yeah.

Free Guidebook And Consultation Offer

SPEAKER_00 39:47

So that's uh I love that that that you're being really clear about that boundary because it is very frustrating. I think that people that seek out counseling maybe think as long as we're getting paid, they imagine that we're sitting in the chair listening and that we're paid regardless. But I don't think everyone can imagine how valuable our time is and how passionate we are about our work. And that if you're really not serious about it, it's just that you're not ready. No judgment, as you said, but but the readiness really helps. Yeah, and to make it really meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

I had that comp I had that conversation with a neighbor. She's coming over and telling me all this stuff that her husband is doing. And I just said, Well, what do you want me to do? And she said, Well, will you talk to my mom? She said, Well, you talk to my mom. I said, Well, has your mom talk to you about it? She said, Yeah. I said, Well, how's me talking to your mom gonna help you? Right? I said, Because here's what it's pointless. I'm your neighbor, number one, right? Yeah, I see him all the time, right? Yeah, if you're just gonna go back to what you were doing, I don't want to talk about it. What's the point? You know? Because there's one point where he was abusing her, right? And she's telling me, and I said, Okay, great, I'm gonna call the police. Big test, right? No, no, no, no, no, no. I said, Well, why not? And she couldn't give me a reasonable answer other than I really don't want anything to happen to him. I just want to complain about him right now.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

And she's still in the experience, as you said earlier in our podcast, that you can't yank someone out of their experience, although we'd like to when we see our clients or our friends in these really unhealthy relationships, but it is part of their learning, it is happening for them. And until they get sick and tired of being sick and tired, they're probably not gonna change. It's the same thing with addiction and so many other issues that we all, you know, many of us go through. It's it's I love to say it's it's not about being normal, but is it typical? You know, because normal is such a relative term.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

What the hell is that, right? Yeah, typical.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Right, what is normal, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

I've really loved having you. And before we close today, is there anything that you haven't shared that you really want to share with our listener?

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah, but you gotta read the book. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Well, that's a good thing. Read the book.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Well, that's a good that's a good idea because there's a lot in the book. When you meet when you say in terms of what I haven't shared that would be helpful, you know, the biggest thing I tell people that's going to be helpful and you can apply immediately is just adopting the belief that nothing happens to you. It's all happening for you. And that will change everything.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

And you're so right about a belief, because as long as I believe I'm a victim, I have no power. I have no no connection to myself because um things are happening to me, right? And when when I read that quote, I I've heard it said in different ways, but I love the way you have said it, that it is happening for you, but that doesn't mean you stay in it forever.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

No, no, no, no, not at all. No, and it doesn't mean, you know, obviously somebody is doing something, right? And you staying there is saying, I accept that. I'm allowing it, right? So you don't mean it doesn't mean you've got to allow this. In fact, it means the opposite. It means don't be a victim to it anymore. See it for what it really is. This has happened for me. I've learned a tremendous amount from it, but uh it doesn't make sense anymore because I don't need that to happen anymore. And then it'll go away anyway. I'll give you a quick example. I was talking to a lady a couple of days ago, and she was in a toxic relationship and ended being physically abusive. And she allowed that for a certain amount of time, and then one day she got up and said, Hit me. And guess what happened? Stopped. He didn't because she'd finally stood in her own power and there was no need for it anymore. Because at a spiritual level, if we're creating it and we say no, and I've experienced that in my own life when I believe certain things about you know my parents and stuff like that, and when I changed my perception, they changed. And so did my behavior too. It just didn't make any sense anymore. Away, right? I know that's hard to believe, but it's true.

Vulnerability Expectations For Men And Women

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Well, it it makes sense. It's all about cognitive behavioral therapy that what our beliefs inform our thoughts, which inform our behaviors and our feelings, and there's always a consequence. So when the consequence isn't good, we better go back to what am I telling myself? What story am I in about what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Powerful word, powerful word, story. We all have our own story, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:26

We do. We do.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Yeah, until we don't.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

And so your story, the Venus flytrap, is gonna help many, many people. I am absolutely sure of that. And thank you so much for bringing your perspective to the relationship blueprint. I really, really love that we're talking about what happens to men and why they aren't vulnerable. I always say to my male clients, it's like your whole life you've taught, don't cry, be a big boy, you got to be strong, you got to take care of everybody. And then you marry us, and then we're like, how are you feeling? And you're like, what is what do you mean by that, right? So um then we're asking you to be vulnerable. And you're like, but like, I wasn't supposed to be vulnerable because then I'm a wimp. So, you know, we as women really need to be way more sensitive about the growth of our the men in our lives and hopefully our sons, because we're fighting against a culture that is giving them those messages too. So we have to be extra sensitive to the fact that you're not behind us. We kept you there.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Well, you know, I'll also say I'll also say this that those beliefs that men have, and you're absolutely spot on with all of those, right, also have made it difficult for women to be vulnerable with men. Because men can be abusive in terms of being so afraid of vulnerability they shut it down, and then women feel like they got nowhere to go with that caring and kindness and vulnerability. So we're all a little bit of a culprit, but I would agree with you, men is is preconditioned more than women.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah. We're we're just conditioned a lot. It's okay to cry, it's okay to be this. Yeah, but but it's not okay to be angry.

Final Takeaway And Closing

SPEAKER_01 46:09

So we have our own Yeah, nice to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

I gotta, you know, be be the nice girl, be the good girl, don't be angry. So, like what then what do we do with our anger? Well, I think we find lots of passive a ways, uh passive aggressive ways to handle that. But that's for another podcast. Well, Steven, this has been a real joy for me, and thank you so much for being a guest today.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Well, thank you for having me, Coco. It's been a fun. I've enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Thank you. So I hope that you will purchase the book, The Venus Fly Trap. And uh, you can find all of the information in um the bio on my podcast description. And we'll see you the next time on the Relationship Blueprint, where you continue to unlock your own power of connection. Thank you, everybody. See you soon.