How Ketamine Assisted Therapy Helps Partners Reconnect: A dive into alternative healing with Jayne Gumpel and Carol Kramer

Ketamine is one of those words that can stop people cold and for good reason if all you’ve heard are headlines, overdoses, or “Hollywood drug” stories. So we slow it down and get specific: what does ketamine assisted psychotherapy look like when the goal is not just symptom relief, but helping a couple actually reconnect when they’re locked in defensiveness, blame, and the same painful loop?

We’re joined by Jayne Gumpel, a seasoned couples therapist trained in Gestalt, Imago Relationship Therapy, mindfulness-based stress reduction, and psychodrama, and Carol Kramer, long-time Imago faculty and therapist who brings decades of dialogue work plus a deeply personal account of what changed for her when ketamine helped “melt the walls.” Together, we talk about the neuroscience in plain language, including how ketamine can relax the default mode network so partners can see their stories with more spaciousness, curiosity, and real vulnerability instead of automatic protection.

You’ll also hear why integration is non-negotiable. We contrast infusion-only ketamine clinics with a full ketamine assisted psychotherapy model that includes prep, a guided dosing session, and integration sessions that stitch insight into daily life. We dig into safety, screening, ethics, the role of licensed medical providers, and special considerations for people in recovery or with addiction history. And we close by zooming out into the bigger frame: spirituality, community, hope, and the idea that cultivating joy is part of healing in relationships and in the world.

If this conversation opens your mind or challenges your assumptions, subscribe, share it with someone who cares about relationship repair, and leave us a review on your podcast app or YouTube. What part of your relationship would you want to see with fresh eyes?

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Question

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Hi everybody and welcome back to the Relationship Blueprint where you unlock your power of connection. And I am with two women today that can help us unlock a question about ketamine in therapy? Ketamine and couples therapy. What can that mean for couples and how did it impact them? So without waiting any longer, I'm really excited to introduce Jane Gumble and Carol Kramer. And they are just, I'm delighted that they can be guests today because we've tried to make this happen a couple of times. And we're lucky enough that they were able to be with us today. So let me allow you to introduce yourselves. Jane, will you tell our audience a little bit about you and what you do? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Hello everybody. So my name is Jane Gumpell, and I've been alive long enough to do all the trainings that a lot of you listening to, if you're clinicians, have probably taken. I'm a gestalt therapist. I'm an Imago therapist, which is Harvel Hendrick's work. I studied with him for, I don't know, 10 or 12 years. So I went through a lot of his training process. I'm a mindfulness-based stress reduction teacher, which is John Cabotzin's eight-week curriculum. I would say that's sort of the core of my practice, mindfulness, because it's the core of my life. There's no separation between that and and my professional presence or persona. I'm trained in psychodrama, which is really wonderful and it goes hand in glove with Gestalt. And I'm also a poet and a painter, which I really love. Abstract paint, abstract art, which is really new in this season of my life. And I write a lot of poetry from therapy notes after ketamine sessions with couples and collaborate with the couples to write the poetry, which they then read to each other, which is really kind of a beautiful part of the process.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

And I want to tell you that uh Jane is on Substack. And if you want to see her work and subscribe, it's really beautiful. I mean, it's poetry about relationship that just feels well, I guess it it just feels embodied as I read it, your work. I feel it in my body. And uh it's very powerful. Thank you, Fuco. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

And it's free. I mean, it's free, and that's important for me to say because my my mission in this season of my life is to do my part to change the world with healing words and to make a difference for couples, groups, individuals, corporations. You know, we're in the midst of it right now, and I want it to be a

Jane’s Approach To Healing

SPEAKER_00 2:35

force for good. So I hope you'll subscribe. And watch on Substack. So the name of your channel would be just so they get that. J-A-Y-N-E Gumpel G-U-M-P-E-L at substack.com and it's free.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

And we'll talk about your website at the end and any about making appointments. But let's get over to Carol. And Carol, you and I have known each other a while, and I loved being with you in Vilsterin and missed you in Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Can you tell us about me? So uh first I want to say that I am just so excited to be working with Jane again. I met Jane when I was a brand new Imago therapist in the 1990s. We met assisting Harville Hendricks at Omega. And as a result of that meeting, we started a relationship where Jane really got me into doing singles groups. We called a course in relationship. And uh I worked with Jane to design a 10 to 12 week course uh with individuals uh for it went on for many years, and people met in that group. And and I have one couple that even met and married, and having a little Mago, not so little, he's like 14 now, but that was the beginning. And I I never knew that I was going to go on to becoming a work, become a workshop presenter, and then in 2008 to become a faculty member. And my passion has been Amago. I believe that the dialogue process is transformational, and I used it with my late husband, Steve, for over 32 years. We were professional dialoguers together. People said I met my match because he was even more into doing that than I was. And he assisted me at workshops that we also did with Jane. Steve and I did Getting the Love You Want workshops with Jane in Manhattan when Jane was more accessible. She's moved too far away. And uh we did the trainings. Steve assisted me at all my trainings. And so Amago and Dialogue has been the basis of my professional life of within the context of other things like EMDR. I got certified and focusing. I studied with Eugene Jenlin's wife, Mary Hendricks, so and modern analysis. There's been a lot of other things, but the thing that stayed with me most is Amago. And uh it's been a passion, and yet I realized that I am a very tough character. I am very defended, and I would only point the finger at my partners and saying how defensive they are, how defended they are, and how they're into right, wrong, good, bad, and didn't realize until doing Jane's retreat with my partner of four years now how I was not having access to my own vulnerability. And the

Carol’s Journey Into Ketamine Work

SPEAKER_01 5:20

use of ketamine opened uh a whole area of consciousness and awareness and uh melted my walls. And so right now, as I approach my 80th year, July 5th, I've decided that I want to help couples who have commitments and practice and do the dialogue, but can't get to that heart open place, get there. And so I'm very passionate about incorporating ketamine in my work with Imago and dialogue and couples and working with Jane is, you know, the the the the height of my my last chapter professionally as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

I just love the passion that you both still have for this work and the dedication to you know helping people heal. You know, most people are kicking their feet up, and I don't know what they do because I don't want to do that either, but but whatever they do, they're they're happy to do that and rest. And what you're energized by is your work and your commitment to healing. And I just I find that inspirational. I just have to say, it's really beautiful. And and Carol, what you said, you know, is so profound, really, and and uh that your time with Jane early on was really a big influence on your life. You know, you moved from working with Jane to really becoming faculty and then continuing to work with her. And and then once you moved away, Jane, that that didn't happen anymore right now, but now you're back to working with her and that uh Jane leading uh Carol through this training of working with couples in ketamine. Do I have that right?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

What is it like for you, Jane, to have Carol back in your life and join you on this journey again?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

She's persistent.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

She is persistent.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

That is so true.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

I love that about you. But and the and that vulnerability that you just shared. I mean, you're gonna be sharing it with about 72 countries and 787 cities that we're in right now across the world. And uh so I love that.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

How beautiful, how beautiful is that?

SPEAKER_02 7:25

It's so beautiful, and it I'm in awe of it every day. But what I love that you said was after all this time, you're not only you're obviously a very proficient therapist and talented educator of Amago International Training Institute, but your own story of you know, doing this with Steve for so many years, and then now four years with Philip. Philip. I don't yeah, Philip is a doll. And uh and that you had this awareness that you pointed, pointed, pointed, you're defended, you're not available, you're this. And that it was only really through ketamine with Philip and guided by Jane that you were able to see, wow, this this is something I've been doing, and it's really not about my partner, it's about me.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah. I was able to get into what I've been teaching for over 20 years, and that is curiosity. Uh the ketamine enabled me to soften my walls, open my heart, and be curious about why he wasn't able to follow the structure that I think is incredible and necessary, but was what was more necessary was curious about what was going on for him. And the ketamine helped me to do that.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

So amazing. So you're no you said you're uh uh you have a tough character.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

I mean I've I'm very well defended. I am so well defended.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Well defended. Well defended.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

And uh so that was really a block that wasn't allowing you to connect in a way that you wanted to, and I wasn't I wasn't able to be as vulnerable and open to the fact that I'm in relationship with someone who's an other, as Harville would say, as someone who's not me. You know, I was so into rules and and structure, which I believe in. Yeah. But what I believe in additionally is the energetic connection.

Ketamine And The Default Mode Network

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

I mean, there's science behind that, Coco. I want to hear. Well, the ketamine, to just to speak to what Carol's talking about, the ketamine is like a human fabric softener, right? It it will relaxes the default mode network, which just simply means, you know, that network that's kind of set up and built around our life experience, our values, meaning making, what's happened to us, and the brain operates through a default mode network, so kind of spits out familiar patterns of protection in the world. And sometimes, you know, that blocks out the sun when that happens. And so the ketamine as a chemical uh relaxes the default mode network and opens up the brain to think of it as, you know, you for you temporarily have access to your brain as though you were an adolescent, you know, totally capable of learning new things. It's a very spacious kind of feeling. And so when you're very well defended, and this is why ketamine is a gift, it's a portal to a more spacious way of seeing your life and your partner and seeing your relationship in a way that creates some differentiation as a witness. You get to see, oh, this is where I'm stuck, this is what I'm making it mean. Do I really want to make it mean that? You know, are there other possibilities? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah. I love it. That's that's the gift. It is such a gift. And when you use the word portal, I just find that such a beautiful word, a portal to a place where we're we haven't we we don't have our defenses, that we're not going back into our histories of other relationships and the hurts that we experience with parents, friends, partners, and that we get to find that place inside of us that is really our core essence. And I love that. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

I mean, some of that stuff might come up, but it comes up in a different way, right? So you the attachment to the story loosens its grip.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

I love the expression you can be right or be in relationship. And uh I was right about how important the dialogue process was, and that's why I really wanted Philip to come with me to Jane's retreat. I wanted him to appreciate that this is what's important, and what I saw instead was the relationship is what's important.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

What a what an awareness, right? Yes. I had a client once in session who, if I ever write a book, I think this will be the title, like through the Imago lens, is uh I want to be more important to you than the problem. Yeah. And I thought it was so true that when we're trying to get our needs met, you know, we we strive, we say it louder, we scream it, we fight over it, we defend it, we have all these different ways of trying to get what we want, but what we we lose is so much. And what you're describing is access to a part of ourselves that won't bring all that mess. So tell us how

Safety, Screening, And Responsible Use

SPEAKER_02 12:10

how do you how did you come upon ketamine, Jane? Like, because I mean I think people hear the word ketamine and they think about Hollywood stars that have overdosed and it's scary. They link it to other substances, like uh is it called ayahuasca?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Ayahuasca is one plant medicine. Yeah, actually it's two plants, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

I think they link it to these other things that there's a lot of fear-based thinking around for healing. And I I want you to speak to that that audience that says ketamine? Yeah. What do you mean? You want me to do a drug?

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Well, I think asking the question is of paramount importance. Like, what is ketamine? How would it be useful for me? Let me do some investigating, right? Because set and setting is of paramount importance. Your mindset about it, your expectations, where you're gonna do it, how you're gonna do it, who you're gonna do it with, right? These are all very important aspects of any non-ordinary state. Uh, and guidance is often, you know, incredibly useful and really important. Ketamine is an FDA-approved medicine. It started really as an anesthetic, is very helpful in emergency rooms, pediatric, especially, because you don't have to intubate in order to do set broken bones or, you know, what what have you. So it's used because it's a dissociative medicine in higher doses. And they started to see that it was really useful and alleviated symptoms of depression, post-traumatic stress, right? So uh so there's a there's a whole background about the medicine itself and how it evolved, and it's still off label. Uh a lot of ketamine treatment is not covered by insurance, unfortunately. We're hoping that will change. It's really also only the only legal for the most part, psychedelic, with the exception of cannabis. Some people put that in the category of psychedelic. MDMA is not legal yet. We're hoping it will be. That's also a beautiful medicine for working with couples, working with rupture and repair, and also PTSD. And uh, I've been a couples therapist for a long time. So you ask how did I come to it?

A Stuck Couple’s Breakthrough Moment

SPEAKER_00 14:20

I was working with a couple for 10 years and they were kind of stuck. They loved each other, they weren't gonna get divorced, but they were stuck with this story. He had his side of the story, she had her side of the story, she was wounded by his side of the story, he was wounded by her inability to reconcile with his story or believe him or own up, right? And they came back to it time and time again. A lot of healing happened, but stuck. So they called me and asked me, would would I treat them with psilocybin? And I said, Well, I can't really do that because I'm not licensed. It's not it's not legal in New York. It wasn't even legal yet in uh Colorado or Oregon, which it's now legal there. I said, but I have heard about this medicine ketamine, and I because I knew them for ten years, I would be willing to do that, because we started a ketamine center up here in Woodstock, New York, and I had a provider who could work with me. So they said, sure. So they came up and I, of course, I knew a lot about them, and I I couldn't believe what happened right before my eyes with them using the ketamine. I mean, and it was so spectacular. They've been to my retreat five times. It was so amazing that they agreed to be sort of ambassadors for couples work with ketamine, so they've been interviewed by different journalists and people, and so they've been willing to be out about it, right? But their core issue they were so locked into it. And what happened when they took the ketamine sublingual, so there's four different ways that people can basic four ways uh sublingual, troche, right? I am intramuscular IV or spravato and nasal spray. I use sublingual for the most part. So this was sublingual lozenge under the tongue, swishing, enters in through the mucosa, and within 25 minutes he starts to cry and says, Oh my god, I am so sorry. And he sees himself in the scene 15 years ago with the thing that happened, but he sees the truth of it for himself, right? And so it didn't be even become reconciling with forgiveness or being okay with what happened. It completely changed the story because he got to see why he was in denial about it, right? And she starts to cry because she gets to see that how she held on to being the provocateur, you know, dressing kind of sexy and, you know, provoking his wound. But he she never cheated on him. You know, she loved him. So she started crying because she it was able to celebrate that he was letting go of his story, but also see the part of herself that was hooked into co-creating this narrative that kept the rupture alive, kept the wound bleeding, right? In one session. So then our integration, which is the work that you do after ketamine, after the journey, is all about the meaning making and how to stitch that into your life on a day-to-day basis. So we did a series of ketamine sessions and then they did my couple's retreat, and now they do that as an annual thing uh five, six times already. And it's amazing. That their them their marriage has completely transformed. You know, they do the work.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

It's uh, you know, the ketamine's a gift, but it's only one spoke on the wheel.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

And I think that's such an important point to make for our listeners that I've had a I've had a a woman who goes into Savannah to a ketamine clinic. She has an experience, and there's no one there to help her process it.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

She does IV probably.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah. And I what I what I have said to her is, but it's

Why Integration Makes Change Stick

SPEAKER_02 18:00

not you're you're it's the integration part that you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

So important. I mean, it's like a three-legged table. So there's ketamine assisted psychotherapy for you guys listening, and then there's ketamine therapy. Ketamine assisted psychotherapy is ketamine is an assist, and you have prep sessions, you have a dosing session, and then you have integration sessions. So it's weaved into a whole way of working and healing, and presence is really important there. Ketamine therapy is you get an infusion, and all clinics are different, but I would say on average, you come in, you're in a recliner, you get the IV intravenous, you have a 45-minute session, and then you go home. And the evidence is there. It mitigates test symptoms of depression with IV without. But why would you want to do that? Because the integration is so incredibly helpful. It really brings you into a change process with guidance. So it's kind of like, yeah, you can get in the boat without a paddle and you're still gonna move up river, but it's so much nicer to have a paddle so that, you know, you you have more agency over where it's going and where, you know, where you're headed.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Yes. And I to your point, I would say that the few people that I've had that have done ketamine and no one has done it as a couple. I'm not I don't have a provider here. I would love to work with someone and do that here and train with you, but I I haven't found that opportunity yet. But the the lack of integration has really caused a a lack of change.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, but you know, Coco, you could do Journey Clinical.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Well, we'll have to talk about that after the podcast because I I I have a couple right now that I love dearly, and I've seen them on and off for probably seven or eight years, and they are they m they really mimic the the story of your couple that you just shared, and and they're on the brink of breaking up. And so I I feel like there's so much that the I can do only so much without them having some sort of portal to see beyond the defenses that are so strong. And yeah, yeah. And and then I've heard of couples that are not really that defended that do the ketamine assisted therapy and how beautiful the relationship is too, like a good relationship that got better. Yes, yes because of a workshop like yours.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's true. One of the screening components of the couple's retreat is I tell people it's for couples who want to stay together. So it's already an induction, right? That oh, okay, so I'm gonna be with other couples that are committed, even though they're in the midst of it. And that seems to be really helpful in creating safety, even though people are in conflict, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

So they're not on the verge, they don't have one foot out, they haven't they haven't hired a lawyer. And just saying that it's like it pulls them up into a different state.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Right? This is for couples who want to stay together. And most of the people that do these retreats or my couple's groups have been together for more than a minute, you know? Yeah. They're out of they're out of the romantic phase. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

What I found so interesting in in the retreat was that after each dosing session, sometime in the later afternoon, we broke up into smaller groups with a facilitator. And the facilitators that Jane has at these retreats are psychiatrists, doctors, psychologists, social workers. I mean, really trained people that give you this sense that you're being held and that you're safe and that you can let go, which was my was my intention was to let go. So after the dosing sessions, we met in the late afternoon three times with a small group of four or five couples. And each group, she had about 15, 20 couples. And what I found so interesting was each time you heard a little bit more from the participants, and some of them had had not even tried cannabis. I mean, nothing. Really, really conservative, straight, uh, you know, what am I doing here kind of people. And by the third day, it was like, whoa, they just relaxed and opened and were just amazed at what they were able to access.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

You know, and as you're saying that, I really what I'm hearing is that if my marriage is in trouble, if my marriage is not in trouble, I'm going to professionals who are going to hold me, take care of me. It's not going to be the big experiment somewhere in South America with people that are probably very well trained, but not in the United States and not licensed. Taking an FDA-approved medication, not drug, medication to help them get to the source of their pain and be able to share that with one another and have a breakthrough. And I think that that is such an important part of this whole story for me is and to recommend clients to come to Jane and do her weekend because it's so profound and safe. If they give it to children in an emergency room, it seems like it's a pretty safe medication.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

It's a very it's kind and safe. And, you know, we tell people all journeys come to an end. It's only 45 minutes, maybe an hour, of time. The journey does come to an end. We provide music. You can lean into the music if you're up against something too difficult to manage, or you can lean into it and be a witness to your suffering in a way that you can't when you're not, you know, in the journey.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

So, you know, that's that's important. And there's very few contraindications for ketamine because it is a safe medicine. You know, if you have high blood pressure or cardiac issues, kidney issues, things like that, the medical provider and all people who take who work with me that use ketamine, every single person has a medical interview of at least 45 minutes so that there's a doctor-patient relationship, and those providers actually attend the retreat full time. So that adds a level of safety, which is really important. Absolutely. So if anyone on this call is interested in doing ketamine, make sure that you know who your provider is, you know where it's gonna be, you know what the setting is, you can have an opportunity to talk about your expectations. Those are all really, really important factors here.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

And so also as a go ahead, Carol, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I've started to work with couples in Manhattan on the Upper West Side, who many of whom are Mago informed. If not, I teach them a dialogue. I don't touch the medicine. You know, I contact a provider, the the provider interviews the couple, as Jane said, and goes through questions to find out if they're qualified. And then they come with the medicine. I don't touch it. So that's a very important part that they're just need to know.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Yeah, that is an important piece of it. I was gonna ask you, so I am very

Recovery, Spirituality, Hope, Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 24:50

committed to couples in recovery and individuals in recovery. How does ketamine work for those couples?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Well, you know, it's a d it can be addictive, as we know. And, you know, Matthew Perry, probably the most famous person who suffered terribly from depression, yeah, who died, you know, as a result of mismanagement of using ketamine as a medicine. It was not used at all properly, and unfortunately, he lost his life, which is horrible. And I've known people to be addicted to it. So, you know, I'm not naive about that. And you have to let people know. And even some people who are in recovery, you know how AA goes. You count your days, you're very proud of your years, you get your coins and all of that. And some people need that for identity, and they're attached to it. So using a medicine like ketamine could derail the psychological aspects of their sobriety. And that can be really painful and sometimes shaming. Because you know, that's that's the one thing about AA that I have. I'm much more into harm reduction. That's the one issue that I have with AA is it it can be very rigid and very shaming and blaming. So that has to reveal itself in the prep session, in the in the screening, in the prep, and make an assessment if someone is dealing with an addiction and they're recently sober or they're very idealized or romanticized around AA and they need that as a structure in their life, it might not be right for them for that reason. Not because it's not a safe drug, but because of the meaning making around using it.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Right. But I've used it uh a lot with people who suffer from, you know, substance misuse, alcohol misuse. They're doing a study now at Columbia University on alcoholism and tetamine with really great results, like 70% of the people are able to maintain sobriety. This is my understanding, for like a year. You know, th that's as far as they are testing it, but uh or six months, something like that. And they're using Ibigaine, of course, for drug addiction, heroin addiction, opiate addiction, with to great success. But it's you have to educate people. You can't just say, Okay, well, I'm gonna use it and and you know, everything's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

You know, people shoot it, they snort it, they you know, they do all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Yeah. So I think that's such a good uh thing to talk about, really, is that AA membership for some people, it's very rigid and they need that that structure that keeps them alive.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

And they don't want to do a drug because it feels excuse me, they don't want to take the medicine even. Some won't take painkillers when they have a tooth removed. That's right. Because of their history. And that for for someone who is in that state with their relationship with AA and their sobriety, this may not be for them. But it's not and it's not because of the uh that the the medicine is unsafe. It's really about a mindset around sobriety and what they need and believe, their story, their narrative around their sobriety. So I appreciate you kind of getting that clear. That makes a lot of sense to me. I've had one um person in recovery who has uh has it had the ketamine experience. And what she said was it was like an experience of hope and contact, a conscious contact with God that she could never find and that she fought in AA because they kept saying higher power, higher power, and she couldn't find that and she kept relapsing. And uh in her ketamine experience, she knew God for her. And uh and that was the beginning of her staying sober. She's five years sober now. So that's beautiful, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's beautiful when it when when we hear when people are brave enough because of the shame that goes along with recovery, even the word alcoholic. I know. It's such a label instead of a disorder. I always say alcoholic is not in the DSM. That is the the book where we diagnose people. And uh so let's let go of that word for now. Um you use it in AA, but let's let's talk about what's going on medically.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

So I mean, listen, my my mission in this season of my life is to depathologize suffering. The three of us here, we could talk. We're all holding something that we're suffering with right now in the present moment to one degree or another. We all have a past, we're all human, all however many, nine billion of us. And in our Western culture, we got it wrong, you know. We kind of we differentiate suffering and well-being as if they're two different things, and the suffering gets farmed off to big pharma and psychiatry and medicated and pathologized. And I think we miss the boat, really. And and as psychedelics, I think, are n a new horizon for redefining, re-remessaging what psychiatry is and what what well-being is and how to work with consciousness and people and that's so important. And not not in a naive way. I mean, the DSM, it's useful to a degree. I mean, it organizes symptoms, it's help it helps us understand, you know, the brain and the mind and the neuroscience of the way the bri brain works and so forth. So I'm not poo-pooing it, but it's way, way much, you know, and there's way little when it comes to the spirituality of healing, the spaciousness of consciousness, how psychedelics can really shift us into the field of just awakening now, that we're all connected. Separation is an illusion, you know, and Western medicine is like, you know, it's a new thing. If you think about 3,500 years of Buddhism and Sufism, you know, all of the beautiful practices that we kind of divorced ourselves from.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

I just went to see Staying with Kevin, and uh, I never knew how much his his lyrics were by Sufism. I had no idea. And what that's I was always drawn to him and didn't have any idea why.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Rumi, roomy, the guest house, you know. Yes, yes. So beautiful. So beautiful, so beautiful. And we're so arrogant, you know, us Western Americans, because some white guy in Germany, all due respect, Freud, you know, brought a lot, but you know, he said, take your pictures off the wall, be a blank screen, you know, practice in a certain way. And, you know, we took that as fact and truth. And it's so much more than that.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

So much more than what I find really exciting is that people like Richard Schwartz, who came to our Amago conference and spoke about how he came out of the closet with using ketamine and Gabor Mate and Dan Siegel. I mean, people, people who uh are really big in the field. And and the Harville gave me and Jane his blessings to reach out to you. He he's not comfortable with using the word amago and dialogue, but he, I guess really, you know, Jane and he have connected through her poetry, and he appreciates the depth and breadth of this and the ability of it to really help people enhance their connection with dialogue, not instead of dialogue, but with dialogue.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Well, also he knows that I'm not kooky, you know. He he knows me now, so he knows that whatever I'm gonna deliver has integrity. And I I really appreciate Harbell for that because you know, he doesn't live in that world.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Well, at 90 years old. At 90 years old, that's what I said he's 90 wasn't. I think he's 91. Yeah, he'll be 91. And to me, one of my the most fascinating things to me is that the theory keeps evolving because of Harbor. He's looking at new things, and this work is cutting edge side.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Quantum physics, you know, that's where we connect a lot on around quantum physics, quantum sociology. We write, you know, we talk about it, I send him my poems, and it's a wonderful thing, you know. So he's he's very uh well, I mean, he's intelligent, right? And he's an extraordinary gift to the world.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Well, I was in the future committee, and uh we thought Harville and the group was talking for three years about quantum relationships. And I I said finally, I said, I think you need to have more curiosity about the future in terms of psychedelics. And at that point, uh Jane was invited to speak to the group about ketamine, and she did a brilliant presentation, and that was the beginning. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Well, you know, it's education, and that's why I'm so happy that you're both here with me today, because we hear things. We hear about uh Perry, I forgot his first name. Matthew Perry. Matthew Perry. People hear that, and then the fear develops, and then the myth around it, you know, it starts to be like, well, I would never do that. And especially for people that um, you know, really see ketamine as a drug and not a medicine, they're happy to pop a well butrin.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

They're happy to the government, it's big pharma. There's a lot of influencing factors. It's you know, just say no era, the Reagan era, you know. So we and we've integrated all that into our mindset unconsciously, you know. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

We're it's because it's understandable. It's what's being sold to us, right? There's not a commercial on TV that isn't about take this, and if you experience this, this, this, this, this. Please contact your doctor.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Yeah. Well, like the GLP ones are are were very new and only for a certain population, and that has been expanded, and they're finding all sorts of incredible things besides weight loss that it's capable of doing, but it's still fairly new and it's you know a little scary because it's new. I think so. Most things that are new are you know something you have to take some kind of education about before you embark on it.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Absolutely. Um, before we end today, I really want to tap into what you said, uh, Jane, about spirituality and interconnectedness. Can you expand on that?

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Wow. In five minutes or less, right? That's what, you know, it's what it's why I am in this work be and why I'll be doing this. If people say to me, When are you going to retire? I'm not, because I'm living the life I want to live by sharing, because to me that's my spirituality, is to be the best I can be in the world, which includes service and helping people, guiding people, inspiring people to come home to themselves. And to me, that like I was raised Catholic, me too. Which was you know, and in those days that was very fear-based, and I never connected to it. I never felt home there. It never resonated with me. And then I started learning about mindfulness and and Buddhism and Sufism and reading poetry and studying with people like Robert Bly and Martin Prechtel and like stretching my edges. I lived in South America for a couple of years, and to me, that became my spirituality. It's like, how can I be the best human in all my foibles and faults and my ego and all of that, right? So I think psychedelics, they're they're a gift in that they offer that that experience of a broader field of awareness where we are connected to everything. We are nature, we're not separate from nature, more than just an intellectual understanding, but a heartfelt knowing that we're we're connected. And that brings a lot of sadness too to me, because of what's happening in the world. I just want to wake everybody up. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

You know?

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Yeah, so you really this this is your life's work and and it is your spirituality, which Catholicism no longer I mean it never really resonated with you.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Never did, no.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

But when you found Sufism and Buddhism and and especially through this Mindfulness, you know, yeah, which is at the heart of your work, which you said at the very beginning of our of our time together, and that you're not going to retire because you really want to share this with the world. And at a time when our Well, it feeds me.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

It feeds me. So it's like I meditate. Why would I stop meditating, you know, just because I'm old.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah. And that, you know, I I totally get that because I get so much energy from interviewing people like you and Carol because it's um I'm learning and growing as I learn and listen to you and my other guests. And then there's also this feeling of like, wow, so maybe it'll touch one life. Maybe somebody somewhere will hear our podcast today and say, I am so miserable. I'm willing to try anything different that is safe to help me. Because you you used a beautiful term coming home to myself.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yeah, that's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

And uh, you know, the the truth is we're not meant to be isolated. We're not meant to be alone. And when you do psychedelics in groups or with your partner or with friends, or even alone, you recognize that community is really important. And w a lot of us are so isolated. We're on the internet, we're home, we're working from home. You know, it's not the same as it was 30 years ago, 50 years ago. And uh, to me, that's really important to bring people together, which is why I call what I do cultivating joy. We actually are working towards having an evidence-based model for group work with psychedelics.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Cultivating joy.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Yeah, cultivating joy.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Carol, is there anything you want to add before we close today?

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Uh the idea of hope first excited me when I got into Imago of seeing couples and having them leave a first session with hope that they can connect again to each other. And so the idea of having ketamine as another tool to add to the dialogue to give couples even more hope that their connections can be deeper, more profound, and can last beyond the session. And so it excites me to give couples hope.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

So hope is your mess and still so passionate about the work of Amago with ketamine. And would you like to close with anything, Jane?

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Well, just thank you all for listening and for opening your minds and hearts to a new possibility, to a new pathway.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

And so let's talk about what is your uh how'd they contact you?

SPEAKER_00 39:21

So my website is relationshipresources.info, www.relationshipresources.info. My email is J Gumpell, G-U-M-P-E-L 57 at gmail. And I'm Jane with a Y, gumpel at substack.com. I write prolifically and it's all for free. And you can use my poetry in any and all ways that you want, including rearranging the poems and making them your own.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

And for Amago therapists who have been working with couples and really want to give them that extra boost of hope, uh, I'm practicing in Manhattan and uh would love to see your couples at this point at a reduced fee to give them the experience of seeing how Imago and Dialogue and ketamine can take them even further.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

So if if I have a couple from South Carolina, can you treat them from New York?

SPEAKER_01 40:17

But I would also like Jane, I would want to see them in person first. So it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

You have to have a New York address and you have to have a New York licensed provider in order to do that. So it's a little tricky. You gotta check with your liability insurance. Be if you're a clinician here listening to this, you gotta know what your state regulations are, what your licensing regulations are. All of that is very important. You have to have the right malpractice insurance. You know, the business side of it is a whole another conversation.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Sure. Yeah, because it is such a it's a cutting edge work. And if you think about big names like Dan Siegel, you know, uh that are and and Dick Schwartz and others that have really embraced this work. We're we're talking about cutting edge stuff, everybody. So thank you to our guests. So grateful for your wisdom and your insights. And thank you to our listeners who please, um, please, if you could give me a review, give us a review wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube, because we really want to spread this work all over the world. And we're doing a pretty good show.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Cultivate joy together.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Cultivate joy together in healing because that's what it's all about. We're all connected and we're all in a suffering place all over the world right now. Maybe not everyone's suffering, but many of us are because we want that uh we want to cultivate joy. And it's uh it's a time where those of us who want to come to cultivate joy are up against some people who are really trying to extinguish that joy, and we can't let that happen because we can't let that happen.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

We won't let that happen.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

We won't let that happen because there's so much hope in the world, as Carol said. We've got to hold the hope for the world, and so everybody, thank you again, and uh, we will see you next time on the relationship blueprint where you unlock your power of connection.