The Real Biology Of Anger In Relationships with Jill Wolf

Anger has a strange superpower: it can make us feel strong in the exact moment we’re most likely to damage the relationship we care about. We sit down with Jill Wolf, an Imago therapist and faculty member, to unpack what anger is really doing in the body and why it so often fails as a communication strategy even when the complaint is valid. 

We talk through the biology of anger management and emotional self-regulation: how anger can act like an anesthetic for physical and emotional pain, how it creates a temporary “boost” of inauthentic energy, and why the crash afterward can leave us depleted or ashamed. Jill explains why anger distorts perception, narrows our focus, and shuts down problem-solving when we “flip our lid.” We also explore a key relationship dynamic: anger can feel satisfying to send, but it almost always feels unsafe to receive. 

From there we get practical. We share what it looks like to express anger in a relationship-safe way: taking a real timeout (and coming back on purpose), speaking “by appointment,” and using simple tools like Jill’s “anger jar” to release intensity without aiming it at your partner. We also name what often sits underneath anger, like shame, fear of abandonment, powerlessness, rejection, and the need to feel lovable, plus the cultural double standards that change how anger and tears get interpreted. 

If you want better conflict resolution, healthier communication skills, and more connection in your relationship, listen now, then subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find Relationship Blueprint.

Transcript

When Anger Takes Over

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever been really, really angry? I'm sure you have. We've all been really, really angry. And then we lash out and we shut down and we do all kinds of things to retaliate or to make ourselves be heard or seen or understood. And yet, does anger work? I mean, what do you do with your anger? It's a real feeling, it's an important emotion, it informs us, but yet, like, what do you do with your anger? And is it really effective? So today I'm gonna have Jill Wolf, who is an Imago therapist and faculty member, come on the show and talk to us about anger and what do we do with it? And is it really effective? So come find out the journey of anger and where to go from here. Welcome back to the Relationship Blueprint, where you unlock your power of connection. And today's guest is going to help us explore the concept of anger, this feeling that everyone has, this feeling that can just be overwhelming to the nervous system. It has caused many big disagreements, some of which people never recover from. People say things they don't mean, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. And yet it's this big feeling, and the feeling is there to inform us that something is not right. So, how does anger work for us? And does it work for us? And when we feel it, what do we do? So I'm excited today to have Jill Wolf with me. She's an Imago faculty member, she's an Imago therapist, and she's a good friend. And with Jill, we're going to explore anger and what to do when we are angry. I can't wait to be with you and hear more about anger and what Jill has to share about anger, especially in relationships. So, Jill, I'm really excited to see you today. It's been a while, I guess, since we were in Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah. Too long. Too long. Too long. And then I had time with you in Chicago too, when you picked me up at the airport. I so appreciated that.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

That was fun. It was good to connect.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

It was fun. We had some good times. And um, so your topic today is really important. And it's fascinating to me because for so many reasons, I think when I think about anger, I think about the uh I think about the times where I've hidden my anger, pushed it down, let it out. Um and I I think that we all have this big emotion, and yet sometimes managing it is so tricky. I was even in my closet today. I'm like, I'm gonna wear red, I'm gonna find something red to to symbolize anger. And I couldn't find anything, but I thought, you know, we we think of anger and we think, I mean, I should say I speak for myself. I used to associate anger with bad, like a bad feeling. What do you think?

Where Jill Learned Anger Skills

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Ooh, that's such a big, big, big question. Um, so I want to tell you the source of a lot of where I know what I know. So many years ago, I saw a man named Stephen Stosny on Oprah, and he was um talking about anger and emotional self-regulation, as he called it at the time. You know, we might call it anger management.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

And he was doing these boot camps uh for people, kind of like a workshop. So um I went once as a participant, and I was so blown away by the process that then I went again as an assistant. It's kind of like my process in Imago therapy. You know, I first met Harvel Hendricks in 1989 when I went to one of his Getting the Love You Want workshops. You know, I dragged my reluctant husband to the workshop so that Harville could fix him. And of course, uh soon found out how much work I had to do, which was actually a relief because I didn't even like the person I had become in that marriage.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah. Like how we change within a marriage. Oh hugely. Yes. Relationships are so unique in that, that they can evoke um sometimes our most primitive immature selves, and um, sometimes really can be uh an opportunity for healing and growth. And that's what I love about Imago, but I'm not gonna talk about Imago right now. Um what I want to say is what I learned from Stephen Stosny. And um, and some of this, you know, uh is just common sense, but a lot of it I just want to make explicit.

Anger As Anesthetic And Energy

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Anger for the sender is very different than anger for the receiver. Anger for the sender feels kind of good, at least initially. Anger for the receiver always feels bad, always feels unsafe. If you were to ask somebody to kind of fill in this sentence, in my family growing up, anger was scary. Scary. Yes. Certainly in my family growing up, anger was dangerous. Very dangerous, yeah. Yeah, my parents had a very uh volatile, hostile, uh verbally abusive relationship. So um, and I saw it both ways. There was no there was no uh obvious victim or heroine or hero or perpetrator, it was just anger. So um anger is different for the sender than the receiver. For the sender, let me talk about that for a second. Anger has a couple biological purposes. One is to be kind of an anesthetic to help us not feel something that's intolerable. By the way, anger also helps us not feel something physical. Um, do you ever notice, like if you stub your toe on the chair, you have an impulse to yell or swear or you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Ow, or God bless it, or whatever. The chair doesn't care that you just swore at it. So why do we do that? It because it evokes a cascade of neurochemicals that helps us not feel feel less, less pain, helps us feel less pain. That's why on the battlefield everyone's like, let's go get them, you know. So they are have filled with adrenaline and cortisol and all these things that make us not feel pain. Same with football. Uh, you know, there's this, ah, looks like anger, right? Um, they I remember reading a study where they had, of course, college kids um stick their hand in a bucket of ice water and they timed, you know, what's the baseline? How long could they hold it in there? And okay, dry off. Uh, then put your hand in the bucket of ice water and say some neutral word like sofa. Okay, time that, take it out. Now put your hand in the ice water and swear. And indeed, when the person was swearing, they could tolerate the pain more, they could hold their hands in the bucket of ice water longer. Huh. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_01 8:29

That is really interesting to me. This biochemical response. That's right. And an instinct, right? It's instinctual. You stub your toe, you swear.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Absolutely. Okay. I'm with you. It's instinctual and not very conscious. So in a minute, I'll talk about how you can be conscious with your anger and not just have it be instinctual. But I want to go back to a little bit about the biological parts of it. So anger acts as an anaesthetic and also as an energizer. Do you ever notice when you're uh not feeling well, you get cranky? It's because it gives us a little boost. Or when we're tired, we get a little ornery because it gives us a little boost of energy. Now it's not authentic energy, and it's not authentic power. Authentic energy is I had a good night's sleep. You know, I ate well, I worked out, whatever it is. That's authentic energy. Uh inauthentic energy is if I had a uh a handful of MMs, that's gonna give me a little boost for a second, but what happens after that sugar goes away? It's the drop, right? And the same thing happens with anger. When we have an expression of anger, all those neurochemicals are going and we feel a little bit good for a second, and then when they recede, we we drop. We feel a little depleted, we might feel ashamed, we might feel tired, you know. Um, all of those things that are that indicate it's not real energy, it's not real power, it's temporary and kind of manufactured by us. So that's one thing. I remember one time my daughter Jenny, she was probably about 12 years old, she was upset about something and she was stomping down the stairs like that, you know, like big stops. And I said, Come on, Jenny, is that really gonna help? And she said, actually, it does, you know. So she was expressing the feeling of I feel better doing this.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Uh-huh. Does that make sense so far? It makes a lot of sense. But I'm you're making me think of all kinds of um examples and experiences. But let me see if I've got it so far. So what you're saying is that this feeling that we get of anger, um, that it actually helps us feel better, especially if we can do it, gives us energy to do something like the stomping, the swearing. And somehow all of that is like an analgesic that kind of lowers the pain that we actually feel about whatever the physical pain or the mental pain. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yes. And I will say a little bit more about the the way that it protects us from a second. But I also want to say, like, you've you've hit on something important in that it it uh anger is very active, right? It's a it can serve as a catalyst, as a mover. Um that's uh so that's a good thing. That can be a good thing, right? If not for anger, there'd be no social movement for you know human rights. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

There'd be no me too, or no, you know, uh, you know, Black Lives Matter movement or any of these that required a certain amount, like if we just all sat like, oh, this is awful, but didn't feel like an urgency to do something, and that urgency is is often the anger of the So you're but what you're saying too about social movements and a lot of things that that anger anger propels us to action. And I'm even thinking about my first marriage and my divorce, that the sadness for so long was so big that I was immobilized, couldn't make decisions, couldn't do the next thing, like find a job. Um, and and it but until uh the anger was allowed to come or came miraculously, I was not functioning.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yes, right. You were shut down.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Shutting down.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

So I'll I'll give you another example of that. Many years ago I was sitting with um a friend who is not a client, so I didn't have my therapist hat on, but he was going through a rough time and we were just talking. And he said, What would you say if I told you I was thinking about killing myself? Well, I quickly put my therapist hat on, you know, and I said, Well, how much are you thinking about it? He said, Well, I already took the pills. So I start yelling at him. I say, You go call poison control center and you ask if you can make yourself throw up. And if they say yes, then you make yourself throw up, but then you call 911 and you get an ambulance here, like I'm barking orders at him. And, you know, he did all the things I was yelling at him to do. And uh the ambulance came. He he was treated at a hospital, and it it was it ended up being important, I think, turning point for him emotionally. Um, but a couple weeks after that incident, we were talking about it, and he said, you know, what surprised me the most was how angry you were. And I said, it didn't feel like anger to me. I was terrified. Uh-huh. I but if I would have been frozen in my terror, like I I was worried he was gonna drop dead in front of me.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

If I were frozen in that terror, what would have happened?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Right. Who knows? The big, yeah. So you're saying that he heard anger, what you felt was terror. Correct. And your reaction was huge, but you're really wondering, like, and then I think many of us have been there when you are terrified, an inability, like you freeze. You get freeze, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, there's a freeze response. Right. So anger is important and can be productive, even in those cases.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yes. Right. Yes, and so even like you know, we've seen this with couples when a woman or man keeps tolerating a behavior over and over again, and you see their sadness, but you can't see their anger, and waiting for it is like when when will you start to feel this thing you're not letting yourself feel so that you can stand up to this person?

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yes, right, because again, anger is a catalyst, anger is active, anger is a mover. And sometimes it takes the straw that broke the camel's back for us to like, okay, now I have I have the gumption. Um, but it often comes out inelegantly, shall we say, right? It yeah, yeah. I'll I'll talk about uh what's uh a relationship appropriate way to express anger. Because it's easy to express anger, you know, at the chair or in traffic, you know, this uh the road rage thing, that's that's real.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Um okay.

Why Receiving Anger Feels Unsafe

SPEAKER_00 16:23

So um that's one of the biological purposes of anger is to move us. Um the problem is when you're in a relationship, like I said at the beginning, it always feels bad to receive it. And that's also a biological response. If you're if you come upon an angry dog, you know, what's your first impulse? I think it would be to run. Run away, right? That's we're hardwired for that. Yeah. Hardwired. Yes. Right. So, you know, um, we don't think thoughts like, you know, it's probably nice dog many days, and maybe it has puppies back at its home, and you know, right? Or we're not thinking that. We're not thinking that. No way. So here's the other thing. Anger distorts our perception. We tend to narrow the focus and magnify the thing we're focused on, which is useful again for survival. We want to narrow the focus and just look at the teeth and hyper focus on that. We don't want to think those other thoughts like, oh, I wonder if it's had a rough life before this moment, you know, or it probably is hungry or something. We no, we just have to focus on the thing that is connected to our survival.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

So if you ever notice when your partner, you know, may or may not be angry, when someone's angry with you, the impulse is to expand the focus for the receiver. Our impulse is to say, you know, I I don't always do this, or it's not that bad, or, you know, um, look at all the other times where this didn't happen. And of course, they have, because they're angry, their focus is very narrow and magnified.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

So we we defend. We we try to Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

And it's a distortion. That's what I want to say. It's it's when the angry person calms down, then they have access to other parts of their brain that they didn't have access to when we're angry. You know, Dan Siegel does this wonderful thing about, you know, if this is uh the amygdala and this is a neocortex around the front part of our brain and this is our brain stem. When we're angry, we literally flip our lid. And what that means is there's not as many neural pathways going from the fear center of our brain to the highest self, the part that is rational, the part that it could uh observe ourselves. We don't have access to that. Here's the other thing. So we don't have access to problem solving when we're angry. That's why nothing good happens as far as problem solving or moving the relationship forward from a place of anger. It's gonna be a distortion. So um, you know, even something like um the other day, my son couldn't find his keys and he's huffing and puffing around, you know. And I'm like, Perry, that's not gonna help you. You know, it's in fact gonna inhibit your problems. Well, he don't want to hear that from me anyway, but not when they're angry. Not when they're angry. That's right, that's right. But hopefully he could think about that later and recognize that okay, when I've misplaced something, I just have to take a deep breath and use all the skills I have to retrace my steps or where could where would be a logical place that I might have left them or whatever it is. But when okay, so here's the other part of anger. Remember, I said that it was a painkiller.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

So it kills physical or diminishes physical pain, and it also diminishes emotional pain. So, yes, I you pointed out uh appropriately that sometimes you have to get angry to get out of the frozen place, right? Or the depressed place, or the place of total withdrawal and inhibition. But anger also serves as a uh a process that numbs a more uh vulnerable feeling. And those more vulnerable feelings that we can't even allow ourselves to feel for a second, it flips so quickly when that feeling

The Vulnerable Feelings Under Anger

SPEAKER_00 21:08

comes up. And those feelings are they tend to be a little bit different for men and women. Now, I know that's not all not thing all things apply to all women or all men, but I could safely say in general, for example, most men are taller than most women, right? That's just a biological fact. Okay, so this is how I want you to think of this part is it's an overgeneralization, and yet also maybe a useful thing to think about. So, and this is where Stasny says this goes back to our hunter and gatherer days.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

That women's survival depended on our ability to tend and befriend. I'll watch your kids, you watch mine, which poison, which berries are poisonous, which are good. And so our survival depended on how. lovable we were so that we wouldn't risk being abandoned because to be abandoned is to die and so those neural pathways that part of our humanity gets laid down early and often um if if you ever notice do you ever notice how women greet each other I think so yeah how do we greet each other hi how are you hugs um maybe it may be a kiss on the cheek if you know them well yeah what else do we do we look at each other in the eyes I'm gonna I'll I'll give you the the answer that I'm looking for it's not for it um we give each other a compliment often okay say right oh oh your hair looks so cute or those new earrings you know I love the blouse you know we'll do that okay that is in essence our way of reassuring each other you're lovable I am too let's go eat you know like guys do not greet each other with hey new shirt you know they don't say that because they have a different um survival mandate that came exactly also from the hunter gatherer days their survival depended on their capacity as the hunter as the the guard of the periphery of you know doing the task that helped support the tribe right and if they were inadequate they were a liability and they would be shunned out of existence so men developed an acute sensitivity to the shame of inadequacy say that woohoo woohoo this is good I know it's kind of big it's big okay so say that one one more time yeah men based on their survival mandate develop an acute awareness and sensitivity to the shame of inadequacy women developed an equally painful or sensitive sensitivity to feeling unlovable or at risk of being abandoned and what is most important to recognize is they're equally tender and I didn't know that intuitively because it's not it wasn't me. So years ago this was with my husband as I like to say um sometimes I would uh call him and I would say hi how's it going and he would say fine like he's irritated I'm like is everything that I call it a bad time is everything no it's fine it's fine what do you need okay so this is before I learned all this so I thought well you know what um after I learned it I no before I learned it um I thought I'll just pay attention what does he say when he calls me because you know we like to get what we give right what we get so when he would call me he would say hi how's it going and I would tell him I'm like this kid is doing that we need a gallon of milk you know whatever it is so after I learned about this what do you think he was hearing when I would say hi how's it going somehow that you're calling and he feels some sort of inadequacy I guess yes it's he was feeling that I was calling to assess or evaluate or judge how he is doing so that I could find out what's wrong so I could fix it because clearly he's not doing enough or he's not doing it right.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

But you're you're illustrating something that of course we love to talk about in Imago that you ask a question.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Yeah and I remember this one specifically asking my husband if he paid the electric bill and him like going off just and it's not you know Kevin it's not his nature but he was like of course I pay the electric bill you don't trust me to take care of the the bills or I really really didn't mean that I just meant if you didn't pay it I'll pay it but what people hear yes and again we don't intuitively know that because that's not our core vulnerability just like if I my husband's Danny if I if I see Danny leaving the house and I wasn't expecting him to and I'll say where are you going? Yeah and he'll say like to the garage I have to get something out of the you know but my immediate impulse or my immediate fear that gets activated is one that's connected to that early thought of being unlovable or a risk of being abandoned. Now of course that got reinforced in my uh not so pretty childhood um so that those neural pathways really got laid down good yeah what I learned was that when I I want to be as sensitive to not activating his shame of inadequacy just like I want him to be sensitive to not activating my fear of abandonment or feeling unlovable.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

So I like the word activating that you're using because it feels like often we hear things in our offices like you triggered me. Yeah uh or you were just triggered by me or what it it feels sort of attacking or dismissive. But what you're saying is let's get really aware this is the biology you know of fear of uh abandonment or not being lovable or a feeling of being inadequate and if we have this these facts they're just facts they're not um if we know that about just our general differences in sex and we did say general yes then you're saying well then how do I then take responsibility for my impact on other that is the whole thing Coco yeah the whole thing that is how can I be relational even when I'm afraid or angry or hurt or any of those things that is human how can I still hold in my awareness how my expression of that might be impacting my partner in a way that I probably don't intend. You know you might be getting to this later so tell me hold on if if I'm going too soon but it's sparking a thought about sometimes myself I and I don't really experience a lot of anger a lot you know just fortunately my life is generally very blessed. But when I do there's some part of me sometimes that wants to stay in it. Like even though I know my impact even though I know it's the wrong way to respond I'm it's a twisted way of thinking about it but it's like I need to hold on to it.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yes well that's because it feels a little good and here's another thing.

Aliveness, Rage, And Silent Anger

SPEAKER_00 29:46

So I grew up with a rageful mother and um it was really not fun to say the least um there was physical and emotional abuse. She was in a very unhappy marriage I'm aware of that now. I was aware of it then too but I didn't realize then as a kid you you can't know that she's doing her thing because she's hurting right I you just feel like oh I'm bad or wrong or terrible or whatever that is. Anyway I made a vow that when I would become a parent I would never scream at my kids like that. I think you could see where this is going to go because one day I remember I lost it the kids were little and I lost it in the screaming insane kind of way that my mother used to do. And of course immediately I felt terrible and I apologized and I, you know, tried to make amends but the other thing I noticed was like how alive I felt like every cell in my body was pulsating and I thought this is why people rage maybe part of why they rage is to feel their full aliveness. You know so one exercise that we do I don't know if you guys do this but we do at the Getting the Love You Want workshop is the positive flooding. Yes. And um what I the instructions I give the clients as they're doing that is you could start out nice and easy but increase the energy until at the end you're as loud as your loudest fight so that you could experience your full aliveness in the positive in the passion way not just have to turn to anger to feel your full aliveness.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

I love that you know it's funny hearing you talk about your mom because my mom also was as kind as she could be and then raged like it was a it was like a light switch and um I too made the same vow that you did. Yeah and I don't know I mean the kids would probably know if I I I had to scream at some point but the bigger thing was is that what they would report to me is that my silence was way more simple because they could feel the rage. They could feel it feel it and that was really hard to hear and um but I had just never given my per myself permission to like lose it you know and and uh it's it's still not a natural thing for me to do because I had labeled that kind of rage as so abusive and I'll never do it kind of blah blah blah. But it it is interesting how we have um a very a similar experience in our childhood make the same promise and then how it manifested later on.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah right have you found some balance with that um yeah I think I have I think I have well I'm you know as you know I I like to play a lot I like to laugh a lot I like to help people laugh and um so I'm I'm uh I find lots of ways to express my full aliveness so that I don't have to turn to anger because I recognize the destructive piece of the anger and I'm glad you pointed out that anger can be silent also can be cold as ice yeah um and I'll bet you thought you were doing a good thing. Oh for sure I thought I was yeah we're protecting them from what you had received as a kid. Yeah and not really protecting anyone yes so but I thought so you know we do the best we can I think when we know better we do better. I I know I've done a better job parenting than I received and I pray my children do a better job with their kids than I've done for them.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

And that's why we're talking about this today I thought it was important here just to differentiate between the silent treatment which is purposely to punish someone with silence and my experience was more of a fawning you know like I can't speak because I am so afraid of what will come out I am I collapse I go inward and in my inwardness was that silence that was unbearable. But I I think that there's some nuance to all of this as far as when we talk about silent treatment versus a person's inability to speak because it is like it's stuck right here.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

That was true for me anyway. Yes and that makes so much sense Coco that for you it was really a stuck place. Yeah and that feels bad to the sender and to the receiver.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Yeah it yeah there there wasn't any resolution and that's why this anger thing is such a fascinating topic.

The Anger Jar And Safer Expression

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Right. So then the question becomes how can I express anger in a relational way? How can I do that safely um so some years ago when Ilana my firstborn was I don't know she was young less than eight and I was starting to learn about all this and and I was frustrated with something she was or wasn't doing and I I said Ilana I'm so angry right now and I don't know where to put my feelings because of course that's how therapists talk at home. Right. And she said why don't you put them in a jar so I thought that's brilliant. She's saying I need a container for my anger so I took like a mason jar and I unscrewed the lid and I started yelling into it and I'm like I'm so frustrated with Ilana and she's ever and she won't she won't pick up after herself and her sister needs something and I'm just like going and she stood next to me like this like my mouth. She felt safe. She could hear what I was saying without it being at her it was in the jar. So then I made a big show of covering it up and I said thank you so much Ilana I feel much better now. And then she said Mommy can I have the angry jar I said sure go ahead so she takes it she says I hate mommy and mommy's the worst mommy in the whole world ever go ahead wow I love that story. Yeah I even created this like anger alchemist tool of a can that you and you know it's it's a little too complicated for for most people but the idea is that how can I um address the thing that's causing the anger and express it in a way that's relationship positive.

unknown 37:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

And because it's so destructive I said in the introduction which you may or may not have heard what which is you cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube when someone says something really hurtful um it is uh an attack on the soul and yeah and it's so and if they'd said it in this moment of anger or frustration or whatever you can understand that intellectually but still you know it's out there and it's been said. And so this is why really learning um and you use the word uh anger management you also use the word that he used which is self-regulation but I think both names yeah really are they fit they fit and so when uh it really requires the the work on the self to be able to approach your partner in a way that's hearable and that's often what I tell couples who express anger like what you're saying is important.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

I want it to be heard I want to coach you on how to say it in a hearable way because otherwise they're just gonna have to defend against the energy of it and not be able to take in the wisdom that might be behind it.

Timeouts, Regulation, And Returning To Talk

SPEAKER_00 38:44

So um that's why it's important that if you find yourself activated into an angry place that you stop, you take a timeout you need to get your um your biological system back to a regulated place. And so that's why timeouts are effective and important and they say it takes about 20 minutes to dilute all the cortisol and adrenaline that has gone through your body and so those timeouts are um to be used to take some deep breaths to maybe shake it off if you feel it physically you know um it's not a time for gathering evidence of why your position is right.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Well you know but I you know I was a teacher years ago right and one of my um favorite things about teaching of course was the um relationship piece of all of it. So we had they were 11, 12 tops in the class and we had um a place in the part of the room called Australia and I just picked Australia because my husband's family was from there and I had books and posters and things and but uh they could go to Australia when they were losing their minds. They could just pick up and go. But I would go too oh wow you know so I'd say you know I really need you to listen it's really important and they're blah blah blah I would just go sit and wait. And then eventually wonderful role model go go. Well it was it was well I mean that I had already had a um a lot of training and um counseling and psychology but I I was teaching which is full circle for me right now that I'm teaching again. But the truth really was is it felt so empowering to choose Australia versus screaming or doing something else that's ineffective right it's yes it's so ineffective.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Right. And you know I named in inadequate and um power um fear of abandonment or feeling unlovable. Those are the two primary feelings we feel that are intolerable so we respond with anger but there are other feelings that also tend to evoke um anger coming in as a management for not feeling that and you named one of them and that's powerless. We hate to feel powerless that sucks and so anger again gives us this pseudo power there are other feelings like feeling guilty or rejected or devalued or um there's a a whole right shame right shame is a big one yeah and shame can make us collapse sometimes and or avoiding the shame can make us angry yeah so in a conscious relationship you know uh we say all anger is expressed by appointment that it's okay to have a dialogue and say I'm really angry about this. So we say it out instead of acting it out.

unknown 42:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

But as you said giving ourselves enough time for the amygdala to calm down you said about 20 minutes and maybe it takes longer but that that time out and and that feels important too is that what I wish I could have done during those years of when I wasn't screaming because I knew I was coming back to them. I knew that I wasn't abandoning them but I didn't say to everyone I'll be back I gotta go I gotta have my timeout I just went to the timeout and then they sat waiting which was the unhealthy piece but I think what you're talking about is so important with the appointment to to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

I can't do it right now but I will do it after dinner where whenever it's gonna be right right so that both people are on board. Yeah because like you named another element that's important for the receiver if I'm angry and you know I want to talk about something if my partner isn't ready or available it's important that he be able to say I I'm can't write now but I will be available at seven o'clock or whatever and then at seven it's his job to his responsibility to initiate yeah the dialogue but it'll be coming from a much better place for both of us.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Yeah because we want successful outcomes that's right you know we do I mean I I think that as much as I was saying you know sometimes enjoying being in the pity party or the anger is tempting and and I don't think it's an unusual experience. But I think ultimately you know when we really think about a bigger picture we're all really trying to connect and the fact that we have been disconnected is what causes the pain

SPEAKER_00 44:00

That is that is painful. It goes against our survival mandate. Right. We are we are social critters and we thrive or don't thrive based on our connections.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Right. Right. So we have this biological view of anger, and we know what you're sh what you've shared today is that that is just something that is we're wired that way. Like this is our wiring, this is our survival. And that anger is informative. You know, that anger is not bad, it's informative. I really don't like the way I was treated. I think that was unfair. And then an opportunity then to uh I'm just gonna pause one second. So I want to make sure that I've kind of got a good summary of this. So these biological parts of us that we're just hardwired this way, and we can generalize about a female wiring around abandonment or um loss of love, not feeling loved. And then the male piece of that has really like the hunter-gatherer part of him is always worried about being um feeling uh shame of inadequacy. Shame of inadequacy, right. That I'm not good enough, that you're looking for what's wrong with me, you know, this this other kind of biological response. And so in knowing that, we can learn to be more sensitive to how we speak to our partners. And and in that, um, we can probably avoid a lot of arguments.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Oh my gosh, when you can have compassion for each other, it's like, you know, oh, I didn't know you were allergic to peanuts. Now I know, so I won't serve people. You know, like, oh, you have this shame of inadequacy. Let me be mindful of that. You know, oh, or you you um, you know, want to be reassured that you're lovable. Okay, let me take note of that, even though I don't think it's an issue, but for you it is, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

And and again, you're highlighting something else. I don't think it's an issue, but it has this impact on you. And when I had a dialogue with Kevin about that electric bill, because in that moment, you know, it it was so confusing to me. Um, because I wasn't being critical. However, in the dialogue, when I heard the sensitivity around his mom, yeah, you know, she he would be mowing the backyard and she would come yell at him and say, Have you mowed the back? You know, there was always something he needed to do better. And and so that was really the part that changed for me to be different. And I think that's where that compassion you're talking about comes into it, that if I have this information about my partner, whatever that information is, then I have a choice.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

It's it's really the the power is within me to say, wow, I I want to make sure that when I ask this question, he hears it in a in a way that is not criticism. I still need to ask the question. Yeah, yeah. But I but I can do it in a way that is going to be sensitive to that. Exactly. And and you also were talking about the amygdala, and I love this um flipping the lid from Dan Siegel. And that that takes time to recover from, and that we have to give ourselves that 20 minutes and remind them that we're coming back and ask for that opportunity to dialogue about our anger.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Right. Right.

Everyday Examples Of Shame And Abandonment

SPEAKER_00 47:59

You know, going back to the male-female differences, this was like in the days before GPS. Remember those days? Oh, yeah. If a couple was not finding their way, the woman would often say, Let's pull over and ask somebody. And the man would often say, I don't need to, I'll figure it out. I'll I'm but and the women, we just want to get where we're going. And by the way, we get points for being the damsel in distress. And and men can't tolerate that, that, the shame. Same thing when when uh if a man is fired from a job and a woman is fired from a job. A woman who's fired from a job, she's reading the wanted on the bus ride home. You know, a man who's fired from a job goes into a tailspin of, you know, this was first my identity, which is a whole nother thing. But but this means that I'm inadequate. And so he has to overcome that giant hurdle. And um, yeah, so that's again, once you understand this, you'll see it everywhere. You'll see it with every relationship. I love that. And anger comes as a way to not feel so bad. But unfortunately, again, like we've identified, it is very different from the for the sender than from the receiver. Uh, it feels very different.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Well, Jill, is there anything that we haven't said about anger that you want to add for our listeners? Um, well, I hope I haven't made you angry.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Not at all. Not at all. What if I did? What if I did? I hope there's room for you to say, because we care about each other and we care about our relationship. And by the way, that's a question I often pose to couples. To ask what's best for the relationship. What's best for the relationship? Because sometimes what's best for the relationship is to speak up in a way that might have some energy about it. And sometimes what's best for the relationship is to self-soothe and uh get some clarity about what is this activating for me. Because when I can understand, oh, this is what I was feeling just in that microsecond before I started feeling anger, like then I could speak to that, which is often, you know, our partners generally want to be of help, you know, want to connect with us. But if we come at them like that angry dog, it's gonna be very hard. But if we come at them saying, you know, I'm aware that this happened, and here's how you could help me. Here's what would mean a lot to me.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Yeah. And I think what you're saying is so important about the the delivery, even in the dialogue, is I'm having a problem.

unknown 50:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

And I would love your help with it. Great. Having a huge reaction to X. Yes. And I don't know what to do with it. And I need to explore this with you. Like, versus you said this, you know, the whole you, you, you, and and you know, someone might say to me, and they have, um, why can't I just be direct? Like, he did do it. He did say it. Well, you can. But you and I are really posing the question today, is what you're doing effective? You know, and if it if it's working for you, I mean, there have I known couples not actually in my practice, but that yell at each other all the time, and then it's past the meatballs. It's just how they talk to one another. I mean, it is cultural typically, but it is it is uh unnerving for me to be in a room with with couples that do that. Um, but it it is how they relate to one another.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Well, it is the piece, right? Yes. Is like they feel their full aliveness and their anger. Often, if we are very, you know, reluctant to be angry or conflict avoidant or you know, freeze all the time, there's um there's we're not gonna feel our full aliveness and there's not gonna be the energy to shift things. Um, it's just gonna be in that stuck, frozen place.

Culture, Tears, And The Double Standard

SPEAKER_01 52:25

And this could be a whole nother podcast politically, but I'm thinking about anger in our culture. Yeah. How men, if they're speaking on the floor in Congress and they are adamant and they are loud and they are forceful, and they may even do some attacking, I think we think of that as strength. And when women do the same thing, we are bitches, we are emotional, we are out of control. Yeah. And so I think that culturally we have these biological um impulses and we know where they came from because of you today. But I think we also have this cultural impact around anger that important. That, you know, for me often when I'm really angered, tears come. And I've seen that a lot with couples. And then the man sometimes says that that's weaponizing.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Because it makes him feel inadequate as a partner.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

So he has to push that away. He cannot feel that inadequacy, and so he has to blame her for crying.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

And her her tears are her own anger and frustration, but another different way of expression. Yeah. So it's we have this cultural piece and we have this biological piece, but we also have the solutions that you're suggesting today. Because once again, we ask, is my behavior effective? If it isn't, why don't you try one of these things? Call Jill Wolf. Yeah, there you go. Called now, Jill, before we leave, you're practicing in Chicago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

What part of Chicago? Um, it's in the northern suburbs, but I I see people from all over, you know. All over the state, right? Well, the state and sometimes people drive down from Wisconsin or Michigan. I just had a new couple start with me from Michigan. I I didn't know they were from Michigan. They're telling me their address. And I said, You drove down from Michigan? They said, Yeah. I said, Wow, I better be worth it.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

If you, you know, if you haven't heard this in this episode, Jill is one of the funniest people. She does our stand-up at the umago um North America conferences, and everybody is in stitches, tears coming down our cheeks because you bring so much joy, Jill.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Well, it's it's fun for me to. Yeah. So what is your website? Um, my website is quantumlove.com.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Quantumlove.com.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah, it's not a great website. I sh probably should, you know, dress it up a little bit, but I'm currently not.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

If we know where to find you, that's all that matters because they've already heard the talent that they would have in the room where they get to sit with you as a couple and learn and grow safely. So websites are less important than the quality of the therapist. And uh you certainly are a quality therapist.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Well, as I call you my favorite my favorite cocoa, um I really appreciate the opportunity to um engage with you on this topic. You know, it's it's can be like not pretty to have to talk about anger, but I think when you see it as human and um can be like, let me get your attention about something, um, then it doesn't have to be so destructive.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

No, and and and that we can learn how to do it better, not do it less, just just be able to express it in a healthy way. Did you know that you're my 51st episode?

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Ooh. Yeah. Amazing. Look how many people you've gotten to talk with you.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

I am learning, I'm learning from every guest that comes on the show. And um, we're in 700 and over, I think 782 cities and 78 countries, I think. So we're we're reaching lots of people.

Finding Jill And Supporting The Show

SPEAKER_01 56:43

What I need from our listeners is I need you to rate the episode. I need you to download it, subscribe, and if you wanted um to contribute, you could contribute to the episode, which will only be able enable me to stay on longer and touch more lives. So don't forget, as we leave today, thank you, Jill Wolf from Chicago. And we are excited about our next episode on the Relationship Blueprint, where you unlock your power of connection. And so take this information today about anger and see what you can do in your own life differently. Experiment with it and have fun. Have a great day, everybody. Thanks.