Radio Front Desk

How to hire and scale a 7-figure private practice | Team building tips with Nicole McCance

• Jane.app • Episode 15

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What happens when you hire before you're ready? If you're Nicole McCance — retired psychologist turned business coach — you build a 7-figure practice with 55 therapists. 


In this episode, Nicole joins Denzil to talk about this journey. She shares her tips on why systemizing before you hire is a game changer, how to build your dream team, and the way to attract your perfect candidate with a great job post. 


What You’ll Learn

  • Tips for getting started – even when it’s scary
  • Nicole’s 5-step method for growing a thriving clinic
  • How to use personality tests to filter out poor-fit candidates
  • The value of clear feedback (and how to make giving it less difficult!)


Guest Bio

Nicole McCance is a Psychologist (retired) turned Business Coach for therapists scaling to a group practice.  She expanded her private practice to 55 therapists and multiple 7 figures in 3 years (with toddler twins at home). Nicole sold her clinic in the 4th year and then retired as a Psychologist in her 5th year. She now teaches therapists how to help more people, make more money, and have more freedom following her proven method.


Resources mentioned


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If this episode has you thinking about hiring your first team member, Jane’s got your back. You can set up practitioner schedules, assign admin shifts, manage time off, and keep everyone in sync — without the spreadsheet headaches. It’s super intuitive (think: colour-coded calendars and real-time updates), and it works whether you’re just getting started or scaling your practice like Nicole. Check it out at ⁠jane.app/features⁠ to learn more.


Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional medical, legal, or financial advice.

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast host or its affiliates.

Speaker 1:

please systemize before you hire, otherwise you're not a CEO, you're a CQA chief question answer. So get everything out of your head. Get everything out of your head, put it in a Google Drive and then you can train people, train them well, and they won't come to you. That's step one. Step two is how to build your actual dream team. They're looking for you right now. It's just about posting, and you haven't posted that job posting.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Radio Front Desk by JNAP.

Speaker 2:

I'm your host, denzel Ford. What's stopping you from making your first hire? Is it fear, overwhelm, or are you just not sure where to start? Today's guest, nicole McCants, knows exactly how that feels. When Nicole made her first hire, she was nowhere near what she'd call ready, but she did it anyway, and it's a good thing she did. Over the next five years, she built a seven-figure practice, growing from one to 55 therapists. Now she's teaching others how to do the same. Nicole has a strategy strategy and it works. In this episode, she'll break down why systemizing before you hire is a game changer. She explains how to actually build your dream team and how to attract your perfect candidate with a great job post. Grab a coffee, turn up the volume and let's get started. Welcome, nicole. I'm so glad to talk to you today. I'm so happy to be here. Turn up the volume and let's get started. Welcome, nicole, I'm so glad to talk to you today. I'm so happy to be here. We're here at Jane's live event in the supposedly sunny Palm Springs but it is not sunny today.

Speaker 2:

It's very windy, stormy, a little rain on the window. Yeah, I didn't know it rained in the desert. I didn't know it rained in the desert in May. But anyway, your story is like truly incredible. You have hired large number of therapists. Is it really 55 therapists? Is that right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, 24 rooms, 7,000 square feet.

Speaker 2:

Wow, okay. So it's just an amazing accomplishment. It's such a like inspiration for so many people out there starting their own businesses. What really caught my attention was when you made your first hire. You say that you didn't really feel ready to do that. You had twins. You were feeling maxed out and I'm I'm understanding that. You say do it anyway and do it scared.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, can you say a little bit about that? So one of my mantras to live by is do it scared. Oh my gosh, like what would you be doing in life if every day you just knew to do it scared? Because the thing about fear, there's this instinct to stop, to freeze, to not do. But what if you told yourself, like the 1%, actually do it scared. And so the twins were very, very little, but for me I was just a baby boss and what I told myself is what if I hire baby therapists? They felt less intimidating. What? By baby therapist I mean somebody that's green in their career. I'm a baby boss, you're a baby therapist and we can grow together. So that really helped me do it scared, but it felt like a small step in a way. A fully licensed person felt more scary interesting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I have this philosophy in life. I probably say it too many times, but I'm going to say it again. I want to do things that feel too hard, and it almost feels like you're doing that. Like this feels too hard but, there's like steps that you can do along the way to get to the bigger vision.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that. That's so funny. When I became pregnant, I remember thinking, oh my God, this is going to be hard. Like how do you even do that Like breastfeed at the same time, like all those things right. But then I remember telling myself, wait, I can do hard. Looking back at all the things that happened in my life like, wait a minute, no, I can do hard. What an amazing mantra to live by.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:

So what would you say to someone who's sitting in that hesitation right now? Well, I think the first thing is really connecting with what you want, like, what is your goal? For me, I wanted to be home more. I was so sick of getting home every night at 7 PM and my kids looking out the window and missing their mama. So my why was just bigger than my fear.

Speaker 1:

So I think also if, honestly, if you were to tell me that I would have had 55 therapists, I would have said there's no way I would do that. Who? You know what I mean? That just seems like a whole lot. So it's just one step, guys listening like what would be just the first step? That's way less scary. And then sometimes I don't know your belief, but I also believe that, like me, doing that was actually bigger than me, so I felt like it was pulling me. Does that make sense? Like, after I took the first step, the next step was evident. Yeah, it's kind of like driving in the dark and all you can see is 30 feet in front of you. But just trust that if you keep going, you'll just see the next 30 feet.

Speaker 2:

I mean what you're saying is really resonating with me, because I don't do anything really that I'm aware of, where I actually know where I'm going when I set out to do it. Does anyone really, I mean like you, kind of just have to, like, take what you know in the moment and take steps towards it and trust and I feel, like that's trust, right, yeah, so yeah, I'm loving this so far and waiting to feel like you're ready. Could also just feel like you're waiting forever.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God. So who has ever woken up and said to do the do like nobody. You know that day like never happens ever. And actually, funny enough, at lunch today someone had said and I love this so powerful ready is always in hindsight to look back and be like okay, I was ready, it's. You don't ever, it doesn't ever just show up.

Speaker 2:

There's also like some deeper conversation we can get into about like being ready is actually not being ready, you just got to do it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You just got to go.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we teach that as therapists behavior activation it's called. So if someone's depressed, rather than waiting to feel like I want to get out of bed, you have to like get out of bed, and then you'll feel like you want to get out of bed.

Speaker 2:

It's the same with exercise Just get into the shower. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1:

Nobody wants to actually exercise. Yes, just put your shoes on. Get in the car Exactly Once you get there, you're good.

Speaker 2:

So part of your wisdom that we've already tapped into in like two minutes of conversation is you've built an amazing five step method for scaling a clinic and we're going to zoom into one segment of that. We're going to talk a lot about hiring today, but just to get us started and understand, like the bigger scope of how you think and your method, could you just give us a quick rundown on your Sure, and here's the thing I did so many mistakes, like 55 therapists, probably for 55,000 mistakes, so I really wanted to give somebody five steps.

Speaker 1:

so just a high overview. First, you want to systemize? Please systemize before you hire, otherwise you're not a CEO, you're a CQA chief question answer because they're always coming to you. So if you systemize, build the container before you fill it. And you mean systemize your business, yes, put everything into SOPs.

Speaker 1:

Looms basically a manual like how we do things here. Here are all of our procedures. So get everything out of your head. Get everything out of your head, put it in a Google Drive and then you can train people, train them well, and they won't come to you. That's step one. Step two is how to build your actual dream team. They're looking for you. Right now it's just about posting and you haven't posted that job posting. And then three I love digital marketing because it works while you sleep. So attracting clients. That's what I did to grow with digital marketing. And then this is a piece that therapists forget they stop at marketing. They're so hungry for marketing, so much. But here's the thing. Then it's converting with consult calls which is why I love Jane, because they help so much with that, and then retaining with follow ups.

Speaker 2:

So that's one to five, five steps. We've also featured you in Front Desk Magazine and in that article you shared the idea that hiring someone who's a flavor of you. Yes, I have so much to say to you on this, so many questions to ask, but let's just start with. How do you balance finding someone who reflects your style plus bringing in a fresh perspective?

Speaker 1:

Yes, oh my gosh, I call it. Have your first hire, your first hire. Okay, you can be varied after that. Be your mini me, your mini me.

Speaker 1:

And here's why I was 27 years old, I fell in love and I moved to Russia. That's the short version. Okay, I left my whole practice for love and I gave it to a therapist, who is nothing like me and I don't know what I was thinking. So, as you can tell, I'm a bigger personality.

Speaker 1:

I'm very direct and here's the thing my clients were used to that experience, just when you go to a pizza hut I'm trying to think American and Canadian here for restaurants, but like a pizza hut, it's a certain vibe. They expect the vibe no matter where they go. They walked in and it was a totally different vibe. She was more quiet, not direct. None of them stayed, not one, not one. And then I fell out of love. I moved back six months later and they all came back to me. So I learned the hard way hire your mini me, give them a consistent experience, and then it's easier to move your clients over, because I help people grow into group practices and then you have more time to actually work on the business and not in it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I want to get more into how you identify your mini me. But first let's dig into a little bit more of who the hire should be in your clinic. So should your first hire be a practitioner or an admin?

Speaker 1:

This is a hard one because therapists don't want to spend money on admin right away because they're not revenue generating. But I want you to think of it as what is your time worth? Are you wasting your time doing $20 tasks? So I'll tell you I have a six month business coaching program. Those who hire an admin early on in my program grow twice as fast. Why? Because they've offloaded the minutiae, they've offloaded the overwhelm. So, if you can, it would be an admin, and it doesn't have to be full time. I think a lot of people the fact that, oh gosh, employee W-2 is what they call it in the States. Right, that's overwhelming. I'm not going to do anything, but what if it was a VA? What if it was just someone who could support you for five hours a week? And you mean virtual assistant? Yes, virtual assistant, I think, eventually, front desk you definitely want somebody at the front desk creating an experience and greeting people, and it be a human. But I think, 100%, make it easy and just go with a VA company. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Hey there, christina, here Just a quick moment to share that this episode is brought to you by Jane. We know how much heart you put into building a practice you're proud of, and that's why we're here To make things like scheduling, charting and payments run a little smoother. If you'd like to take a peek head to janeapp forward, slash pricing, because we love a good bonus don't forget to use the code radiofrontdesk for a one-month grace period. Okay, I'll keep it short and sweet. Back to the episode.

Speaker 2:

All right, let's talk about money. Let's talk about money, honey. So how do you set and feel confident about what you pay your first hire?

Speaker 1:

We do it. So it's so nice because most industries have a standard, right. So that's the thing Follow the standard. But I help people it's so hard to be a good boss there are moments where this conflicts and pay them well to retain them but also be profitable. Like, how do you at the beginning, right, I teach people to keep 60%, which is the going rate when somebody is fully licensed, but the best way to do this is to actually reverse engineer. So what do I want my profit to be? Because people don't do this. And then the year ends and they're like where's the money? Where profit to be? Because people don't do this? And then the year ends and they're like where's the money, where's the where to go? Right, yes, right. So so does that make sense? So I have a hundred percent. Yeah, that's a client session, that's a pie. I'm gonna give 60 away to the fully licensed person. I have 40. So if I want a 20 profit margin, you know we're not math people, we're therapists, a lot of us.

Speaker 2:

I'm not a math.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's okay, having a really good accountant and just like, yeah, reverse engineering, it is so important.

Speaker 2:

I think that's not necessarily the default thought process, right, a lot of what I hear people talking about is like what do I have to pay somebody based on my location, and I think that's an element to think about for sure, but if you're not also taking care of what do I actually have? And the other thing is, I'm sure you have strong feelings about this, but it's all related to what you charge for your services. Yeah, because that's how you're creating the full 100. Oh, exactly.

Speaker 1:

If it's a bigger pie, more to share. Yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 2:

And then, what do you think about determining what those fees are for the services and like charging what you're worth?

Speaker 1:

Here's the thing. I was trying not to get too passionate here. We are like brainwashed that we're bad. I'm going to use the word therapist but, like as a psychologist, we're bad practitioners if we want to make money and I just feel like that's so sad. I wouldn't want to sit in front of a therapist that isn't living her best life but telling me to do it. You know what I mean? Yeah, and people buy things based on value, not price. There are teenagers in this very moment that are skipping their lunch for the next iPhone because they value the iPhone. So if you tie it to value, I mean we're changing lives right. Like, truly, whether you're a chiropractor or a therapist, you're changing their lives Interesting.

Speaker 2:

Okay, back into the mini you, the mini me. Let's talk into the hiring process. I'm fascinated about this. I personally have done quite a lot of hiring, and the other side of it as well, so I really want to dive into this deep with you because I think there's a lot to learn. So you have created an incredible resource for hiring. We're calling it a playbook and we're going to post that online and people can get a link to it in the show notes. But just to start off on this part of our conversation, what is your process for finding the right fit?

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh, okay. So I call it. Find your hell, yeah, sorry, can I say hell on here Too late? Yeah, you can. Your hell, yeah, right. When you're interviewing them, I want you to ask yourself would I actually go out for lunch with this person Because I'm talking about it's not corporate, like I'm talking about this as a therapist that will do therapy under your brand, right, right. And then the next question is like would I go for therapy? Would I actually book an appointment with them? And if it's a no, I bet you their conversion rate's going to be low and their retention rate's going to be low, and I'm not sure that's a good move. You should leave that conversation being impressed, like that's a high bar, like I'm impressed. I hope they take my job offer.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I call it a work marriage. It truly is. So there should be six steps to marry you because you're pretty lovely. I was wasting so much time on zoom. Within two minutes I knew they weren't a good fit and then it was awkward. Do I get off of Zoom? Do I go through all the interview questions?

Speaker 2:

I love this so much and I have to coach people who hire with me, because when I hit one of the non-negotiables, it's just done for me and this is why it's because if you sit through the pain when you know it's- not right it's a waste of time during the hiring process and nine times out of 10, you end up having to part ways with them anyway.

Speaker 1:

Yes yes.

Speaker 2:

So you're doing everyone a favor by having those hard knee jerk reactions early on.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I love the saying slow to hire, fast to fire, slow to hire, step one. Screen them on the phone. There's three steps before they get Zoom with you Because your time is so valuable. Yeah, so I would get your admin because you hired the admin right and they're going to call them because there was things that were non-negotiables and we would ask them on the call do you work evenings and weekends? Do you live close to the office? Because there's snow where I live and if you live far, you're not going to stay. I noticed, noticed that.

Speaker 2:

Oh, got it, yeah Right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, are you open to doing hybrid? All your non negotiables? And then there's more. Step two is we actually give them a personality test. The big five, a personality test? Yes, and this is legal, don't worry, I checked. Oh, tell me more about that. So I don't know if you've heard of this. At least the psychologist listening would. Have you ever heard of the big five?

Speaker 2:

I have heard of them.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, so it spells ocean. So openness, okay, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism and the two big things you want to pay attention to is low in neuroticism, obviously. But it's good because on the actual questionnaire they don't call it neuroticism because naturally everyone's going to be like, nope you know that's not me.

Speaker 1:

They call it natural reactions. So I would only hire people that was low in neuroticism. And the reason is is when I hired somebody that was high, highly anxious, highly irritable, they just got overwhelmed. They couldn't see the amount of clients. It was just not a good fit. Yeah, and obviously also if you're hiring an admin, it needs to be like high in conscientiousness and then they meet you on Zoom. So I would have criteria that they pass the non-negotiables. There's a personality fit, like we have this avatar, if you will, that we know works for our culture. Then they get an hour.

Speaker 2:

We have a similar process when we're hiring for our team and instead of the personality test, we give them like a skill test. But I will say that part of what we're assessing in that process is how they respond to different parts of it that are difficult. Like, we give them feedback and how do they respond to that feedback? And I'm pretty sure that if you were there watching, you'd be like oh yeah, feedback.

Speaker 3:

and I'm pretty sure that if you were there watching, you'd be like oh yeah, this is like a test for neuroticism. Okay, like, how do you? How do you?

Speaker 2:

respond to someone telling you that it wasn't quite right and you have to redo it.

Speaker 1:

Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so we, I also suggest, after the interview, give them a working interview. That's what you're doing, right?

Speaker 2:

oh yeah, look at that get them to do it, I know right.

Speaker 1:

So them a working interview. I feel like it's easy for people to tell you how great they are. Let them show you how great they are or not so great. And then number five is the Colby. Have you heard of the Colby? I have not. Okay, it's called sometimes a strength assessment. It's basically how you get things done, how you work Okay. Here's why I found it. I help people with group practices. So you're hiring for a group. You want a therapist that's not too entrepreneurial, because they won't stay, oh, interesting. So it tests for that and it also tests for that. They like systems. So you're creating all these systems. If they hate systems, they also won't stay.

Speaker 2:

So we give them the Colby, and then references yeah, fascinating. They're not too entrepreneurial. I've talked to many people who've gone and started their own businesses. And that's where it starts. They're working for someone else and then they say I want to do this my way, and then they leave.

Speaker 1:

And so what does that actually mean? Not too entrepreneurial, you know. And then the Colby actually does measure like risk-taking, loyalty change, like maybe you don't want somebody that is going to get bored easy. Yeah, did we go through all the?

Speaker 2:

steps. Yes, that's all six. All six, okay, amazing. So let's just jump backwards about like I just jump backwards about like I don't want to miss a job description. What are your thoughts on putting something online to attract applicants?

Speaker 1:

A love letter. It is a love letter. Your job description should be a love letter that stands out from the crowd. You have to remember it's kind of like dating. Okay, I met my husband online before scrolling, but when they're scrolling, everyone kind of it's the same stuff. I'm sure it's been like a minute, but same with like. Indeed they're scrolling through.

Speaker 3:

They all look the same.

Speaker 1:

But what if, at the top, you actually shared with them what you were going to give them, as opposed to what everyone else is doing is like here's all the requirements, right, Start with. Like here's the atmosphere, the environment we're going to create your dream job. Hook them in with his love letter and you'll get way more applicants yeah, especially in this industry and these types of businesses.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, really stand out. Yes, so if you're not getting applicants, what do you think is wrong?

Speaker 1:

now I would post the job for free for one week and then sponsor it. There's a way that you can sponsor. Of course it's like advertising, but it takes patience, which entrepreneurs aren't good at, so my members will be like it's been two that you can sponsor. Of course it's like advertising, but it takes patience, which entrepreneurs aren't good at, so my members will be like it's been two days. You know like give it a minute, they will come, yeah, especially if you have the love letter.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, sometimes we, even with all this what I'm saying, we have high volume come in when we post jobs Like even with that. Yeah and yeah, you just also, you have to give the people who you're looking for time to find it Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so know that I specifically sponsored $20 a day. Yeah, yeah, and then just make sure you have an eye on it. But it is worth it, cause I know people are thinking, oh my gosh, that's like you know a hundred and I I'm really bad with math yeah, $140. Yeah, good, $140. And that's a week, nicole, what do you think? But if you do the math, like, how much are they going to bring in? It makes sense to bring them in faster.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, interesting. Okay, let's talk about evaluation of all of it, but let's start with the written part, I think, for me. I'm trained as a writer and have been a writer like my whole life, so this part of it is is something that I can get really nitpicky about and spend a lot of time on.

Speaker 1:

I think the bar needs to be really high because there's so many people right. So if there's like things like spelling errors and also like how they communicate to you, so here's, here's one thing we will be very clear about the process. If they can't get the process right, we will not even move them onto the screening. So what I mean is, if we're like, okay, so first send the cover letter, if they do not send the cover letter, I love that so much.

Speaker 2:

I love it.

Speaker 1:

I feel like you want to make it hard, because you're worth it.

Speaker 2:

Is there any other detail of the written?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think the thoughtfulness that they've done their research, and also you can feel the kind and caring piece you kind of show up. Even though you're not hiring a writer, you can just tell that they really do want this job. This is a love letter back to you, totally.

Speaker 2:

I love thinking about it that way. Yes, okay, but you were talking about having, hell, yeah, hires. Is that what you said? Tell me some more things that you do to get to that moment, honestly, if you are wavering, it's a no.

Speaker 1:

People will bring it to coaching like I don't know, and I'm like then it's got to be a no. Back to dating. There's so much correlation between that. If you're talking to your friend like I don't know, then it's got to be a no, don't talk yourself into it. And I just found that the yellow flags ended up being red flags later. It should be easy. This should be like the easy part. If there's a little bit of flags showing up, then no, what are your flags? Oh gosh, it could be, honestly, of things that you're like.

Speaker 1:

I feel like that was a B answer, not an A. You know, also for my particular practices, specifically therapists, but I think everyone listening, a lot of us are afraid that they will come work in our practice and then leave with the clients. Do you know what I mean? So even that, like how they that's one of the interview questions. You just get a sense like are they just coming to, like learn all the things and then literally replicate it, because that is an industry that they could do, that, oh yeah, so you get that sense. But I think too, a hell yeah is somebody. It's about energy, it's about, like resonance. That again, it's back to the lunch, like, wow, do you like them? That is important. You were building this to love your life and to go every day and like the people, like you're the boss yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

One of my red flags is, uh like negativity. That's really bad. If that shows up in the interview, very sensitive to it. So yeah like people can come up and they can have like this really very subtle, like spin into negativity. And I. That's one of the ones where I'm like a hard knee jerk. Sorry, sorry, everyone. This is a no because it almost always turns into something and it doesn't always turn into somebody who's highly negative in their role, but it usually turns into something that is unmanageable or it requires a lot of managing, so if you catch that early you can avoid having to deal with it later.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, yeah, yeah. Describe the person to me that makes the final cut to you.

Speaker 1:

It has to be an A player. Like what is an A player? Yeah, so for a therapist like we'll talk about therapists specifically, I think that number one, like you give them six hoops, like all the things that, literally it's A plus, a plus. And even the personality test there's scores kind of like. They range in neuroticism, for example, you know. So, conscientiousness, I would only hire people that were above a 90. So it technically was an A plus, you know, for admin. But for me it's that you give them a process, they follow it and they pass with flying colors, and there's the chemistry, the resonance, so there's the hard skills and the soft skills, and then it's going to be the perfect marriage.

Speaker 2:

How do you know when? Maybe you didn't do the job you were trying to do when you were hiring and you're starting to feel a problem and you're starting to feel like it's not going to work ask yourself is it a people problem, is it a systems problem or is it a leader problem?

Speaker 1:

you see, there's something called the attribution bias. When we make a mistake, we tell ourselves oh, I was in a rush or I didn't sleep, or I I was overwhelmed. When somebody else makes a mistake, we blame their character. So when it's me, it's circumstance, when it's them, it's character. So we tend to blame people as bosses. Right, like, oh my gosh, really, I really trained them, but did you? Most of the time it's usually a systems problem. Were they trained? Well, it, was this actually written down right? So I would first ask myself that written down Right? So I would first ask myself that. And then, if it's not a them problem, great, we'll then fix the system. But if it is a them problem, then use the F word Feedback.

Speaker 3:

Give amazing feedback, don't swear, but people don't give feedback?

Speaker 1:

They really don't, and like feedback is everything. How are they supposed to grow if you're not actually telling them?

Speaker 2:

Okay, so let's talk about feedback for a minute, because I also. It's not easy to give feedback first of all, and the other thing is that sometimes it's not clear to the other person that you're giving them the feedback. So, like you have to actually signal to people that you're giving them feedback, sometimes A hundred percent and thanks for pointing that out.

Speaker 1:

It is hard giving feedback. It really is, and I tend to be a people pleaser too, so it's like so hard because you want to be a good boss and you don't want to upset them, or you know, I love just sharing, like, hey, I just wanted to point out like here's the process, because the other thing is there's probably a process or there should be a process, so it's back to the systems again, and then you can lean on the systems and not the person, and there's less defensiveness. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And the systems can also tie back to the bigger vision for the business and the clinic. So none of it is actually personal and there are ways to indicate that to people. So when those harder moments come, it doesn't feel personal. You got it, yeah. What are your tricks for keeping these unicorns that you hire? How do you keep?

Speaker 1:

them happy, retaining them? Yeah, I think number one is this is, of course, particularly for clinics is check-ins, not once a year but every quarter check-ins and we actually give them a questionnaire where we get them to rate the front desk, because they won't always tell you but if you say hey, 0 to 10, how's the admin doing and they might give it an A. Then that's a conversation, how to rate you as a supervisor, because a lot of us will supervise and I would actually do it. I would do two a year, year, but my clinic manager would do two a year, because not everyone wants to stare their boss at the face, in the face who's paying their mortgage, and say like actually you're like a seven you know, what I mean, but they might say it if you're not there and they feel more supported.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, um, so doing that frequently and I really like the scales, because sometimes it's easier to put an eight and have the conversation more deep in person rather than like just saying it. It feels scary sometimes, for sure, yeah, so frequent check-ins to start, for sure. And then just culture. I did a keynote talk for Jane yesterday and there's an amazing book called the culture code by Daniel Coyle and I think it's the best book out there and he talks about that. Culture is really about belonging and connection and that really comes from the leader showing up authentically and vulnerable. And then there's really no hierarchy and we're just humans. Yeah, neither of us are perfect but we're doing our best.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, another way I think I approach this is that. Back to the thing I was saying earlier about I like to do hard things. I pick people who and I tell them very early I want to do hard things with you and I picked you so let's go do hard things so if we?

Speaker 2:

ever get to a moment where I need to say something isn't working, it can very easily be linked back to the goal that we agreed on. So, yeah, I think there's just ways to really make it about the thing you're trying to achieve together.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, and also one of my favorite things is like showing up curious rather than blaming right away, knowing the attribution bias. That's such a great tip.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, that's such a great tip for the like the leader. Yes, exactly, it helps keep you out of the mindset of it's the other person's fault You're like actually what happened here? Yes.

Speaker 1:

And they're less defensive because you're just curious or sometimes confused, confusing, curious story. I'm just a bit confused here. You know this happened and then they're not going to get there.

Speaker 2:

You're allowing them to talk, they're not going to get defensive and then it gets resolved way faster. Yeah, Nicole, thank you so much for being here today. We will link in the show notes your playbook and we'll also link to the book that you mentioned.

Speaker 1:

Cause I think that's a great podcast. If they're interested, oh, please tell us the business savvy therapist.

Speaker 2:

Oh wow, Amazing. Where can they find this Spotify or Apple? Awesome yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks, nicole.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for tuning in to Radio Front Desk. If you found this episode helpful, it would mean so much to me if you gave it a rating and leave a review letting me know what you think. And if you're a fan, you can subscribe to Radio Front Desk on Apple Music, spotify and wherever you get your podcasts.