Everyday Beans Podcast - Mostly About Coffee and Other Stuff

Tasting Sweetness: A Coffee Brewer's Perspective

• Oaks, the coffee guy • Season 1 • Episode 172

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In this episode, I explore the complex concept of sweetness in coffee and what it really means to coffee enthusiasts. Using an interactive conversation with an AI assistant, I dive deep into how sweetness is perceived, balanced with acidity and bitterness, and how it varies across different roast levels. I share my personal observations that sweetness tends to be more evident in medium and dark roasts, while often remaining elusive in lighter roasts.

Throughout the episode, I discuss practical approaches to experiencing and appreciating sweetness in coffee, including how brewing methods like immersion brewing can tame acidity in light roasts, and how espresso can amplify the subtle nuances of flavor. Listeners will learn how to develop their palate by comparing coffee flavors to fruits, understand the relationship between extraction levels and sweetness, and discover techniques to help medium and dark roast drinkers better appreciate lighter roasts.

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[00:00] Hey, I hope all is well. I'm doing pretty well. Today is gonna be another interesting thing today. We're going to delve into what sweetness really means in coffee. Sometimes I get confused, you may get confused. You're wondering where it actually plays a part in coffee. So the way that we're gonna actually do this is that we're gonna be talking to chat GPT. I did this last time when I was talking about complexity. It went really well. I learned a lot. And let's see if we can continue to learn together.

[01:21] But I have no clue where it's going. So let's go ahead and bring up chat GPT. And we're just gonna talk to it. We're gonna feed it some questions, see what we're dealing with, and kind of to spice it up a little bit. I do have this lightly roasted Ethiopian coffee that's been off roast for about three weeks. We're gonna be talking about it too probably.

[01:37] My definition of sweetness in coffee, it's more so like the opposite of what acidity is, of course sweetness is sweetness. But a lot of times when people think about sweetness in coffee, it's kind of a hard topic to talk about. Could you fill me in on what you know about it and how to understand sweetness in coffee even more so?

[02:05] Sweetness in coffee is a fascinating topic. It's mainly influenced by the coffee's natural sugars, which develop during the growing process and are enhanced during roasting. Factors like the coffee's origin, varietal, and processing method all play a role. During brewing, sweetness is often balanced with acidity and bitterness, creating a harmonious flavor profile. It's a complex interplay, but focusing on roast levels, grind size, and brewing techniques can help highlight that natural sweetness.

[02:44] That's more so what I'm aiming to achieve, but I guess more so, let's get beyond the whole, I guess, definition of what sweetness may be. Let's talk about the application of actually drinking the coffee. Like how are we trying to really taste sweetness?

[03:12] When tasting sweetness in coffee, it's all about paying attention to certain cues and the overall balance. Start with the aroma. Smell the coffee first. Often sweet notes like caramel, honey, or fruits are present in the aroma. Take a sip. Let the coffee coat your tongue. Sweetness usually hits the tip of your tongue first, so pay attention to that initial sensation.

[03:35] Identify the flavors. Try to pinpoint specific sweet flavors. You might notice hints of brown sugar, chocolate, ripe fruits, or even floral notes. Balance with acidity and bitterness. Sweetness in coffee is often perceived in relation to acidity and bitterness. If those elements are balanced, the sweetness will shine through more clearly. Consider mouthfeel and aftertaste. A coffee with a sweet aftertaste can leave a lingering impression of sugar or syrup-like quality.

[04:22] Well, you bring up a really good point. It's more of like a nuance, right? That's what you're saying. So it's something that you, I guess, kind of get, but it's something that's subtle. Is that my understanding?

[04:38] Exactly. Sweetness in coffee is often a subtle, nuanced aspect that complements other flavors. It might not be immediately obvious, but develops as you explore the coffee's profile. Focusing on it can help you appreciate the layers and depth in each cup. You're absolutely right. It's a delicate quality that enhances the overall experience.

[05:23] Quite a bit, actually. More so like in the medium roast and also in the dark roast. And the light roast is very elusive. If I probably roast the coffee a little bit more developed, probably another 15, 20 seconds on development. I think I get a little bit more of a chocolatey type of note. So that's what you're saying that if you're kind of getting those natural type of sugars, type of flavors like brown sugars, something that's barely there. Those are what we can consider what sweetness is, I guess in this case in light roast.

[06:07] Yes, that's exactly it. In lighter roasts, the sweetness is often more delicate and can be overshadowed by acidity. Extending the roast slightly can help develop those natural sugars, bringing out flavors like caramel or chocolate that are more pronounced in medium to darker roasts. It's subtle but definitely present. And it's all about fine tuning your roast to highlight that sweetness.

[06:56] I have, but there's not that much difference, especially in a lighter roast and different types of coffees that I'm usually roasting the coffee at. However, let's delve into the overall nature of, I guess, what we're getting at because I think sometimes when we talk about flavors and tastes, we get too exact, meaning that we said chocolate. But chocolate can mean so many different things, right?

[07:22] Absolutely, and that's a great point. Describing flavors like chocolate can indeed mean a range of different experiences, from dark and bitter to creamy and sweet. Each person might perceive these flavors differently. When we talk about sweetness in coffee, it's about embracing that spectrum and the subjective nature of taste. It's less about pinpointing an exact flavor and more about the overall experience and balance. This is why developing your palate and paying attention to subtle notes can be so rewarding.

[07:45] I think the biggest thing beyond just coffee in general, what I've been doing a lot more, is just eating fruit. Eating fruit more so for what it is and being as objective to the whole experience when I'm eating fruit. And then I go back and look at or try to pinpoint it like, okay, this is kinda like what I taste in coffee. Is that kinda like the approach that we should have from time to time to actually understand what we're drinking since coffee is essentially a fruit?

[08:15] That's a fantastic approach. Tasting fruits and being mindful of their flavors can definitely help in identifying similar notes in coffee. Since coffee is essentially a seed from a fruit, it shares many of the same flavor compounds found in fruits. By training your palate with a variety of fruits, you become more attuned to detecting those subtle fruity and sweet notes in coffee. It's about building a sensory library. So yes, that's a wonderful way to refine your understanding of coffee's flavors.

[08:52] Yes, quite a bit. Like I said, I like the balance of acidity and sweetness in coffee. And I'm more than anything getting it from a medium and dark roast. But whenever I do actually have some fruit, sometimes it can lean more sweet, more acidic. And it's not so much about 50-50 split for me for balance. It's just how they work together. Like you're saying, the acidity, the sweetness, the bitterness, and how they really work together in order to give that experience to the palate.

[09:33] Absolutely. It's all about how those elements interplay to create a harmonious experience. The balance doesn't have to be a perfect split. It's more about how the acidity, sweetness, and bitterness complement each other. That's what creates a complex, enjoyable cup. It's great that you're noticing these nuances in both your coffee and the fruits you eat. That awareness helps in fine tuning your roasting and brewing to achieve that desired balance.

[10:07] Of course, yeah, a medium roast and a dark roast. I think it's a little bit more, I wouldn't say easy, but it's more evident to where I can actually get that out of the coffee. Like a decent amount of balance where the acidity isn't so complex and in your face. But as a medium roast and even as a dark roast, it kind of flips a little bit. Like of course the medium roast is right in the middle so where you can get a good amount of acidity and also sweetness. But then if you go with the darker roast, it can tend to be a little bit more sweet and then sometimes bitterness. But there is some type of acidity that comes through a lot of times with dark roast that I'm really fascinated about too.

[10:55] That's a great observation. Medium roasts often strike that ideal balance where the natural flavors, sweetness, and acidity coexist harmoniously. With dark roasts, the sweetness often intensifies due to caramelization. And there's usually a mellow acidity with some bitterness. It's fascinating how you can still detect acidity even in those darker roasts. It adds complexity and keeps the cup interesting.

[11:43] I just get more pleasurable experience when I can get that acidity coming through a dark roast compared to a lighter roast. Because lighter roast to me, again, that sweetness is elusive. The intensity of the acidity is very compelling. It's interesting, but there's no balance. There's no like, it just skews one way. And a lot of times when I think about it, I think about dominant acidic type of fruits, for instance, like grapefruit, lemons. Not so much oranges, oranges have that sweetness to it, to where you can get that decent balance. However, with lighter roast, I just get that one hit kind of number with acidity. And I think that's the reason why I tend to get away from it, just because there's no real kind of harmonious type of balance in a cup.

[12:10] That makes a lot of sense. Light roasts often highlight the bright, sharp acidity, which can be quite intense and sometimes one dimensional if the sweetness doesn't come through. It's understandable why you prefer the more balanced, nuanced flavors that medium and dark roast can offer. Those roasts can mellow out the acidity and bring forward more complexity, making the cup more enjoyable for you. It's all about finding what suits your palate and brings you the most pleasure in your coffee experience.

[12:44] I think so, but let's go ahead and kind of switch this up a little bit. And let's talk about more so like how we can help other people, especially people who probably are a medium roast and a dark roast type of coffee drinker. But they're trying to appreciate, understand a lightly roasted type of coffee. How can those people enjoy when majority of the time what they're getting is a high acidity, complexity type of coffee?

[13:12] Helping medium and dark roast drinkers appreciate light roasts can be a fun journey. Here are a few tips. One, start with the right beans. Choose light roasts known for their sweetness and balance, like Ethiopian or Costa Rican coffees. These can be more approachable. Two, brew methods matter. Suggest methods that highlight sweetness and clarity like pour over or aero press. These methods can soften the intensity. Three, focus on temperature. Remind them that cooling the coffee slightly can mellow acidity and bring out more sweetness.

[13:42] Four, pair with food. Pairing a light roast with a sweet or creamy treat can help balance the acidity and enhance the sweetness. Five, adjust expectations. Encourage them to approach light roast with curiosity, focusing on the unique flavors rather than comparing them directly to darker roasts. Gradual transition. Start with a lighter medium roast and gradually move to lighter roasts as their palate adjusts. These steps can make the transition smoother and more enjoyable.

[14:08] Oh, that's pretty awesome. And actually, I would actually go a little bit different than that. I like the idea of you telling people to adjust your expectations because that's one of the biggest things that we have to do a lot of times when we're drinking different types of coffees for whatever reason. But I think the way that I would actually approach it is kind of go as light as possible and then kind of go back down as we get closer to like a medium roast because I think either way can work. You can go as a medium light and then a light roast and then a super duper light roast that's developed but still very considered very light to kind of give them an understanding appreciation that way. I think either way can really work for that particular person, that palate to just really see it for what it is. But you bring up another good point of like tasting it along with food or fruit to kind of give them an understanding.

[14:42] Absolutely. It's all about tailoring the approach to suit individual preferences. Starting with lighter roasts and working back can indeed help someone appreciate the full spectrum of flavors. Pairing coffee with food is also a fun way to highlight different aspects and create a more enjoyable experience. Ultimately, it's about exploring and enjoying the journey, allowing each person to find their own unique path to appreciating different roasts.

[15:06] Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good. And one of the things that I actually have gone through with my two-week saga with light roast, I did that a couple of weeks ago, is that I actually noticed, at least for me, that the acidity is a little bit tamed in an immersion type of brew, like a clever dripper compared to a Hario V60. Sometimes I think the Hario V60 intensifies this acidity even more so. But that's just my observation from my own personal endeavors.

[15:31] That's a valuable observation. Immersion brewing methods like the clever dripper do tend to create a more balanced, rounded cup, as they allow the coffee to steep longer, which can soften the acidity. Pour over methods like the Hario V60 often highlight acidity more due to the quicker extraction and clarity. It's great that you've experimented and found what works best for you. Your experience can definitely guide others in understanding how different brew methods can influence the perception of acidity and sweetness in light roasts.

[16:08] Yes, for sure. Before we conclude today, let's talk a little bit about sweetness in coffee in general, but skewed a little bit more towards a lighter roast as it pertains to espresso.

[16:23] Certainly, sweetness in lighter roasts for espresso can be quite interesting. With espresso, the high pressure and quick extraction can highlight acidity, but it can also bring out nuanced sweetness. Tips for enhancing sweetness in light roast espresso. One, finer grind and proper dose. A finer grind and the right dose can help balance acidity and enhance sweetness. Two, temperature control. Using slightly lower water temperatures around 195 to 200 degrees can reduce sharp acidity and bring out more sweetness. Three, longer extraction time. Slightly longer extraction can help develop more sweetness and complexity, balancing the brightness.

[17:00] Coffee choice. Light roasts with natural or honey processing methods can have more inherent sweetness, which works well for espresso. Five, milk pairing. If they enjoy milk, light roast espresso can pair beautifully with milk, enhancing the natural sweetness. It's a bit of a balancing act, but when done right, light roast espresso can be incredibly sweet and vibrant.

[17:24] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And they work out really well to me. I think probably-- it's just probably my point of view, kind of looking at it, is that I think lighter roast tends to do a lot better as an espresso because of how much more amped up, even more, that it gets, which is kind of weird me saying that compared to pour over, that it lets the coffee come through. And sometimes I can taste the nuances of sweetness to an extent a little bit more because it's been amped up in the brewing style.

[17:50] That's a great insight. Light roast espresso can indeed bring out amplified flavors due to the concentrated extraction process. The pressure and intensity can highlight those subtle nuances and sweetness more distinctly than a pour over. It's interesting how the brewing method can change the perception of the same coffee. It's great that you found that light roasts shine an espresso for you, especially with the added sweetness and complexity.

[18:44] Yes, for sure. I think before we leave off today, let's go ahead and talk about mainly particular extraction in lighter roasts and what I witnessed with that. What I mean by that is that what I've noticed is that I can extract the shit out of lighter roasts and there won't be as much or little to none bitterness as I go to like a 23 to 25 percent extraction compared to a medium roast and a dark roast. And does that mean that if you can extract more from a lighter roast, does that necessarily mean that you can get more sugar or sweetness out of the coffee? Or is that more so 10 closer to the acidity type of spectrum?

[19:29] That's an interesting observation. Light roasts can indeed be extracted more without becoming overly bitter, allowing you to push the extraction to higher levels like 23 to 25 percent compared to medium or dark roasts. This is because light roasts typically have a higher density and more complex matrix that can handle a longer extraction without breaking down into bitterness.

[19:50] Increased extraction in light roasts can help bring out more complex sugars, contributing to a noticeable sweetness. The sugars are more accessible at higher extraction levels, especially in light roasts. Higher extractions can also balance out the acidity, making it more pleasant and integrated rather than sharp or overwhelming.

[20:10] So yes, higher extraction in light roasts can bring out more sweetness and a balanced acidity. It's a fine line, but with light roasts, you have more room to explore without hitting bitterness too quickly. This makes light roasts unique and exciting to work with.

[20:30] I believe so. I believe so. It's one of those things to wear. Pushing the coffee even more so kind of gives me more appreciation for lighter roasts just because of the degree of complexity that it can have, mainly in the acidity part of it. To me, the sweetness is still elusive. However, it's still one of those things to wear. I know if I probably use a lighter roast that is more developed, that can probably bring more of the sweetness in a cup, which I'll try in the next couple of days.

[21:16] That's a great plan. Exploring a slightly more developed light roast might indeed bring out that elusive sweetness while maintaining complexity. It's all about experimenting and finding that sweet spot, both literally and figuratively. Enjoy the process, and I'm sure you'll discover some wonderful flavors.

[21:45] So that was that, right? We had a good time. I barely talked, which I'm sure some people probably appreciate. Some might talked, but it was fun. I had really had a good understanding of things and kind of understanding where I'm at with things. And I hope that this has helped you kind of figure out some of the things that you like in coffee, what you don't like in coffee, and things that you can push even more so with the, with your palate and what you're understanding and all that good stuff.

[22:12] It's kind of ironic that we're talking about this stuff, and I'm drinking this Ethiopian coffee right now. And I still don't get any sweetness from it. And as it cools, and I'm understanding that sometimes it can be very subtle. Sometimes it can be a little bit more evident, which is perfectly fine. And that was some of the things that I have to realize a lot of times with coffee in general and also use fruit, use different things like that in order for me to really understand coffee and kind of convey that message to you because at the end of the day, it's one of those things to where we know what we like, we know what we don't like.

[22:50] And it's, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool to kind of get a better understanding of what sweetness really is in coffee. And I think the biggest takeaway here is that we have to push ourselves more than just drinking this beverage and trying to understand what sweetness is because I get carried away. I'm sure that you probably get carried away when we were just really simple with our descriptors of trying to understand what we think acidity is, of sweetness is, of bitterness, of different degrees of it and all that stuff.

[23:18] And I'm looking forward to trying that out with you along the ride as we delve deeper into understanding our coffee, as we drink or eat other things because that's how we get our experience. It's not just with just drinking this to understand it better. And again, like I said, I get lazy with the way I describe things and I want to be better about that. I want to notice that sometimes drinking coffee is very elusive, but it's one of those things to where we can appreciate it from different points of views.

[23:41] So that's what I got for you. We're going to continue this and everything, but this has been a lot of fun for me. I just like learning at the end of the day. I just like learning. So we live, we live, we live right now. And I hope that all is well with you. And I think today is March 14th, 2025. I didn't say that in the beginning, but I just want to get into it. So I'll talk to you later. Bye.