062 - Pit Pony Jay Dehaan - Classroom to Curriculum Innovation Manager - Part 2

In Part 2 of Jay Dehaan’s story, we hear what happened after he made it into the classroom.

Jay shares the emotional toll of leadership, the grief of losing a loved one, and the quiet realisation that the system he fought to be part of no longer fit the life he wanted. From pushing for curriculum change to missing out on time with his own children, Jay found himself questioning everything.

We talk about the rigid structures of education, the barriers to meaningful change, and how discovering the Life After Teaching group helped him take the leap into further education.

Now working as a Curriculum Innovation Manager for a remote apprenticeship provider, Jay is more present for his family and finally doing work that feels right.

This is a powerful reflection on identity, resilience, and the courage to choose a new path.

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Edited with finesse by our Podcast Super Producer, Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real

Transcript

Welcome back to part two of Jay's story, and what a story. Let's enjoy. Thank you to our sponsors, Little Voices. 

Are you a teacher with a passion for drama, music and performance, or feeling stuck in the classroom? Little Voices gives you the chance to step into a role where you can truly inspire young minds through the arts. This is a company I know well and admire. They're passionate about child development, highly rated and genuine and transformative. 

With small group teaching, a focus on confidence and creativity, with the opportunity to guide children through Lambda qualifications, you can make a real impact. Plus, with the support of a nationwide franchise network behind you, you can run your own successful business, doing what you love, while teaching in a way that truly fits your life. Hello, and welcome to the Pit Pony podcast with myself, Sharon Corley, and me, Sarah Dunwood, in which we talk to teachers from all walks of life, who exited the classroom from what they thought was a job for life, and thrived on the other side of teaching. 

Coming up in this episode. So I'm almost in a bit of a trap. Even though I'm still not at the point where I'm hating, not hating it, I love working with the kids still. 

But I just know, I've realised it's not, I'm not in this for the long run anymore. I'm just not. But just yeah, trapped and then I discovered the Life After Teaching group. 

I've just worked so hard and I'm still struggling to even eat. Anyway, so Sarah's gone to, gone to Burnham. The Dubai thing's kind of there, but Sarah doesn't want to leave her family, which is right. 

And then I got a message saying, oh, I've driven around Somerset with my sister, found this lovely place. I think we should live here. It's lovely. 

So I'm like, why not? Like, I don't really want to leave this school. I love it. And they're pushing me because they know that I want to keep progressing. 

But like financially, what choice have we got? And then, so she's gone ahead, looked around. She said, right, I found somewhere we can rent. I think it was, I think it was like 750 a month. 

So already 500 pound less. Like, what do you, what would you think? So I was like, gutted because I loved this job. Gutted. 

I loved the school. But I was like, well, okay, we'll do it. So I started looking at roles in this area now in Somerset. 

Got an interview and I was travelling up. Bear in mind, I was working Monday to Friday. Friday I was leaving school, getting on a train, coming to Somerset. 

Sunday afternoon I was going back home. So I was doing that for a few weeks, back and forth, because obviously I still had to go to work. Come and done the interview.

They offered me the job that evening. So I was like, yeah, I'll take it. 100% take it.

Without knowing, pay scales are different where you are in England. I didn't know. So I got back to my school on whatever it was the next day. 

Said it to my, well, she wasn't at that time. She was my NQT. I think they were mentors. 

You had like, you had your classroom mentor, then an over, is it like a manager? She, and again, another female, really good. And she was like, so they've offered to match your pay scale. Like, and this was M2, whatever it was by then. 

And I was like, yeah, they're going to match it. She was like, but that's a lot less there. Did you not ask? I was like, what do you mean it's less? She said, because you're going out of London, it's less. 

So I was like, I've already accepted it. She was like, I'll help you write an email to them. Just, you've just got to be honest, basically. 

So I was honest, said, listen, I don't think I can accept because financially just explained everything. I was really honest. And then they come back to me and was like, that's absolutely fine. 

We'll match your wage, which meant I got bumped up a bit. So I'm like, right, that's what touched, right, done. Handed my notice in again, gutted I had to, but handed in, they were brilliant at school, really understanding. 

So I worked my notice until Christmas. I think Sarah got the keys to the place we were renting in the November. I was still traveling out Friday, home Sunday, because I worked my notice to like 21st of December. 

It was late that year. Got here on the 23rd because I didn't even drive. So I was relying on someone to give me a lift. 

They'd let me down. But got here in the end. Started my new job on the 5th of January or something early in January. 

And I was at that same school for the next eight or nine years. Yeah, I really enjoyed the school. But that's when I started to kind of come up against things I knew I didn't like and couldn't change and try to change and just kept getting kind of pushed back. 

I did everything I could to progress in getting myself into, because I thought I could be in a position to make changes and do things. And it wasn't until I'd done that or got to this place or completed this course, I realized, actually, I still can't do it. I might have got a bit higher up, but there's another wall there now that I've got to try and get over. 

What like? Give me more detail on that, Jay. What were you coming up against? What did you want to do? So my first thing was PE. Like I was so frustrated with the PE. 

And this had come from London. It wasn't just a Somerset thing. It was the lack of PE. 

The teachers didn't enjoy teaching PE, so the lessons were ****. And I did my PGC at Brunel, which is like a top sports college, unique, top, top. My PGC, we spent an hour with a lady that came in, an hour in that whole PGC, one hour. 

So there's no wonder that teachers aren't equipped to deliver good PE lessons. So that was my first, I chucked myself into this PE, like we need to improve PE. So I was like, right, I really want to get into this, like threw myself into loads of research, listening to loads of people, like podcasts and things like that, and listening and reading and doing all this stuff. 

And the head teacher was great. She was on board. She let me kind of implement different things at the school. 

So I was like, right, it's getting good now. And then there was just other things. I was like, right, okay. 

I taught, by now I taught every year group from two to six. I had a good experience in the classroom. I was confident kind of delivering with everything else. 

I really enjoyed working. I had two years working with, they were still NQTs at the time, being their mentor. And I absolutely loved that, loved working with teachers because I used to love it because they'd come in and they were told all this stuff that's kind of the book stuff, but that's bullshit, like this is the reality of it. 

Because that's what I had. I had people like that. I was like, yeah, that's great. 

But actually, this is how it really works, sort of thing, if that makes sense. And I loved that. So I was like, right, I'd love to do some sort of training or consultancy job. 

Like, where do I go? What do I need to do to get into that sort of, that role where I can work with others and develop them? And then someone said, oh, you can do a master's in education leadership. It's a great way to do it. And I'd always, I remember thinking about a master's and one of my heads saying to me, I'm a head teacher, I've been a head teacher for 12 years. 

I've never done a master's, you don't need one. So that put me off until obviously this reignited it. So I was all right, okay, go and do it. 

10 grand in debt, IML or whatever it was, it was 10 grand, obviously all loans and stuff. Did my master's and I actually really enjoyed the master's. Some of it was really good. 

It was hard, obviously. So I'm still working, I've got a busy home, family life, but I did it. It was an Exeter online course, I think two years, two and a bit years.

But all the while I'm speaking to the university, like, is this going to open doors in these areas? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brilliant. You'll be able to do this stuff. 

And like, once you've got a master's in education leadership, loads of doors will open. And then I slowly started to realise how difficult it was to get into the consultancy kind of roles, like really difficult, speaking to people, other people online and just people that have done it or tried to do it, realise how hard it was. And that kind of died out a bit. 

And then we had a bit of a tragedy in our family. Sarah's sister was killed. She was killed by a partner, which threw a massive spanner in kind of life for us. 

And I remember, I think three weeks out of work initially, my head was like, take three weeks. And I went back thinking, normality. But I remember being back at work thinking like, I'm back, but why does everyone expect Sarah to go back to normal now? Like, what? This is not right. 

It's not right. And I remember having this kind of internal battle, like what? Just because I think I need to go back for normality, Sarah shouldn't be expected to go back. Like our whole world's just been torn apart. 

And I ended up just getting myself signed off because I wanted to be there. Sarah can't be expected to go back to normal life, like her best friend has just been murdered, like what? No. So I've got signed off. 

Obviously, that's, it never goes away, that sort of event. But I've signed off for however long I got signed off, back into teaching again, just threw myself back into it. Still enjoying it at this point, but coming up against things like, I didn't agree with the curriculum was just the rigidness of it. 

And the lack of the confident, constant, we have evidence for this, we need evidence for this, we've got to do this. It's like, I'd be things like the just little things like the, I can't think of the word, but the observations. If I'm going into a classroom, I like a noisy classroom, which is the right noise. 

I love that. I think that's great. The kids are talking. 

I love that. If it's the right sort of noise, I absolutely love it. But then someone else will observe a lesson and it's tuning out the noises. 

I need it quiet. I can't think of the word I'm looking for, but I've hated that about observations and that sort of thing. Probably the criteria.

It's, the word was in my head and it's just gone. Subjectiveness. That's the word. 

It's based on the person's own individual bias rather than a set of criteria. And I hate that. I didn't like that. 

The subjectiveness of it is it's like, and even with get off studying, some of them are great. Some of them weren't so great. And by now I'm middle leadership. 

I'm leading on a few subjects. And it's, I'm getting more into that sort of thing. I've been doing a few years and it's just like, I don't, I don't like it. 

It's too rigid. Like I remember somebody doing a lesson on, I don't know what it was. It was like a battle, a historic battle. 

And she took them out onto the plate, onto the field and they reenacted this battle. Obviously not fighting, but reenacted this battle. Kids loved it. 

Absolutely loved it. We did a bit of pupil voice after. They're all telling me about it. 

The person I'm observing with hated it because where's the evidence? So the evidence is in the talk to the kids that they're going to remember that lesson over every lesson they've done this year. And I was constantly kind of coming up against that little, those little things that were just building, building, building. And then, like I said, the rigidness is only so far you could take and teachers being scared to take risks. 

And this was ingrained in me, take risks as a teacher, take risks. If it fails, so what? But take a risk because it will, the kids will, it will benefit everybody. But people being, watching people being petrified to take risks or, oh no, I've never done it like that. 

It's like, well, you've done it for 10 years. Let's mess it up a bit. But just the fear in, I just, yeah, the fear in teachers to not tick that box and how children were slowly becoming numbers. 

And it was all about data and they celebrate the progress, not the data, the attainment, sorry. And it was just numbers and then obviously throughout the years, there was more and more of SEN staff and all the other stuff that comes, kind of comes with teaching was becoming more and more evident and how we were almost failing some of those kids. And I was seeing children from backgrounds like me and they were having teachers that didn't get them. 

And I'm like, just stop being a teacher for a minute and be a human with that child. But they don't need a teacher now. They need, they need a person, a human being to talk to them on a level. 

And it was just all these small things building and building and building until I kind of completely became a bit disillusioned with it all. But if you think about it, there were certain points in your story. You said, a human being found me one day in a PE lesson and went, you've got an arm, we'll sort it out.

You then said, when you went into teaching, I actually loved the lesson observation because it gave me the freedom. Now you use the expression to show off. I would go with the word showcase. 

I was able to showcase what I could do. So the bits where you were talking about what you love, all of that had been eroded into. I'm now feeling potentially how I used to feel before, before I found that sweet spot, which is I'm doing stuff. 

And I don't know why I'm in this library. I don't know why they won't let me just enjoy the lesson. I don't know. 

You've hit blocks again, where you are feeling in a cast, in some respects, straightjacketed, not scaffolded. You've gone from a school where they said, where do you want to be? How can we support you getting you there? To being in a position where that question's not even been asked. Yeah. 

And the school was great. The head teacher was really good. She pushed me from the get go into all the MPQs I wanted to do and all of the different kind of qualifications and additional work and stuff I wanted to do to develop. 

And she was always on board. If I went to her, I've got this idea. I've done a bit of research, especially around reading towards the end. 

Always on board. And so it wasn't even, it was just the system was like, it just felt like you said, so rigid. Do you think as well, going back to what you talked about with Sarah's sister, we had a guest on a couple of weeks before you, Jay, who lost a child and Gareth Dale talked about losing a child and still working within teaching. 

And he talked, he talked about this reframe in his life. What's the point when you've gone through something so traumatic, so catastrophic because what happened to your family, your family unit, because let's face it, you're in Somerset for that extended family and the heart of it has been cruelly ricked away from you. Did you have that life changing look through a different lens? This is, this is kind of thing because reality struck at home. 

I'll tell you what I noticed then. And I'm sure there was lots of times throughout my life. I probably could have noticed it, but that's when I really noticed it is that, and it sounds a bit harsh, but it's true. 

Nobody gives a shit. Like, I remember me and Sarah walking, it must've been from a school or whatever. And just looking around thinking like our whole world has just been turned upside down and people are just, they don't know, but obviously they're going about their normal business. 

So how insignificant what's happened, what you are to every, to just what life is, life goes on sort of thing around you. And it's like, nobody gives a shit really. And I'd heard mumblings of kind of like gossip at work about things. 

And it was, at the end of the day, nobody cares. And with something like what you went through because of the circumstances of your sister-in-law's death, that doesn't just funeral, now we get on, I should imagine those investigations, those court cases, that's an overarching shadow that goes on in reality for a long, long time. So put that into a school when you're actually seeing pockets of what life should be like on that playing on the playground with the battle, because those kids will remember that day. 

Like you remembered the PE teacher day and you're then having to have a conversation where A, not only have you got to grade what's going on there, imagine if somebody graded that PE teacher the day with you and went, you shouldn't have done that to that kid. Yeah. And I was getting things like that in observations. 

I still was as much as I didn't care about an observation because it was ingrained in me to be, use it as a platform. And it was always never put on an act because it's obvious, but just like you said, showcase, it was always ingrained in me, but I'd still always get pulled up. I remember at first it was always about, and I don't know if this is still in the criteria, but it was always proper standard English because obviously the way I talk, there'd always be a development point, every observation to the point we'd end up laughing about it. 

But that was never, when I got to Somerset, that kind of stopped, which was nice. But I'd always get pulled up on things, but I think I'd always kind of give my reasons why I did that. And usually it's a discussion depending, again, it's subjective to who's observing, but usually with a discussion. 

And I was coming up against that still, like, why did you do that? It's like, well, it's that child needed that. Oh, but where's the evidence? How are you going to evidence that? I don't give a **** about the evidence. That child needed to do their writing under the desk or to do that bit of Lego under the desk because they need that at that particular time. 

They don't need me to tell them, because if you want me to force them to sit at a desk and write a story about something they don't give a **** about, they're going to end up throwing chairs about and the whole class is gone then. Here's the interesting thing. If we are to take education as it should be, there's an end point and it's year 11. 

It's normally the third week in August when they get the GCSE results. We will never know what part of one lesson or one particular topic or what resulted in them getting that six or that five or that four. But there's one thing I can guarantee based upon your experience at school. 

We know why your national record of achievement counted for the square root of nothing and it certainly wasn't a moment in a lesson observation. There's a bigger picture that sits and you cannot do it in that one moment in that one lesson. It's nonsense and I think the word nonsense and irrelevance feeds into people who've had tragic circumstances in their life. 

Nonsense, it's like what you said, you're walking through the streets and somebody's arguing because the parking space has been taken or someone's too long to try and find the money in the purse. This is nonsense. So how long was it before you started to think, based upon what happened with your family, based upon the changes and the straitjacketing was happening, how long was it before you thought this is not the life? I think after what happened with Sarah's sister, like I said, after a few months got back in and that was then obviously we had the Covid but I was back in by then. 

So a good maybe another five years afterwards I was still going and then kind of again trying, I got into year six that was kind of, I wanted to get into year six it was like. So I was in year six for the last kind of three, four years because as you're in there you almost get a bit stuck don't you, but three or four years at the end. But I'd always had this thing again, I still want to get into, I love working and doing and training and supporting other staff. 

So I did, this is when the MPQ started to become a thing. So I went and did the MPQ in, there was a CPD one I did and a senior leadership one I did and doing kind of loads of little bite-sized things around CPD because I loved working and developing teachers. I obviously still really loved being in the classroom and then all the other shit that comes with it now or the like I said all the data stuff or the other stuff that comes with being a teacher now was that just got worse and worse and worse. 

So I was starting to think like right, I don't think I can do it, I'm not enjoying it. I started to lose a bit of love for the whole thing, loved being in the classroom, loved working with other teachers but just overall I'm just not enjoying it. I'm missing things with my own kids that was, that always frustrated me and it was obviously you can argue it's my own fault because I had four kids. 

If I had one or two I might have been let out to go and see shows and things but I just, I can't Pit and choose so I couldn't ever do anything. If it was in the school hour I could never do it. But just yeah, these things were mounting up and I was thinking about what do I do? I'm on alright money now, to be frank I was on a decent wage. 

I think by now I'm on UPS 3, whatever it is, the top one. So I've hit that roof now, let me go and look at deputy jobs because maybe I can get there and then I can start trying to do these changes again, going back to that. So I started again, I went for some interviews, wasn't successful, really close in one which at the time I was gutted about because I just, yeah, really close in that. 

I did a bit of acting deputy at my current school which again I really enjoyed that because it gave me the time to kind of work in smaller groups with kids and interventions, work with staff and developing staff which is kind of really what I at the time wanted to head to. But I couldn't seem to nail this deputy job to progress because that's where I thought, right let me do that. And then all the time kind of looking into that world I'm speaking to deputies, I'm speaking to head teachers and they're like trust me you're going to get here, almost get to be worst with the amount of barriers that I put up in front of you. 

So I'm thinking well what do I do then? I'm stuck, like I can't go sideways and leave the career and end up on this wage unless I get really lucky because financially as a family again I can't afford to drop my money. So I'm almost in a bit of a trap, even though I'm still not at the point where I'm hating, not hating it, I love working with the kids still. But I just know I've realised it's not, I'm not in this for the long run anymore, I'm just not. 

But just yeah trapped and then I discovered the Life After Teaching group. I knew you were going to say that, tell us how you found us, go on talk to us about that. Yeah someone mentioned it in the staff room just like have you seen this group? I know so I've obviously I've gone into it like because there's they're saying they must have read a post that was like something probably not like a bad experience like so I've gone on there had a look at what what people are saying and doing obviously you hear about the success stories people have left and it's like oh so maybe there's a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.

And then you're hearing about obviously negative experiences and then that's making me think actually maybe it's not so bad where I am because some of these stories are shocking like what's going on in their school the way they're being treated and then some of it I'm like it's not just me this is happening what I'm going through so many people are and then yeah just I was a silent reader for a long time with that. I think that's really interesting Sarah because I've never heard it captured as well from an outsider's point of our group. My school's not that bad, oh my god it could be so much worse, oh this is happening to me, this could be the writing on the wall. 

That was really insightful wasn't it? I know from people that that refer other people into the group I think there's a couple of entry points for our group people come in because they know it's all happening and it's and and they're at their worst or they come in and have that exact journey that you're talking about I'm all right it's not that bad yeah there's there's my signal point and I think that's why I love the group so much because it serves it serves so many in so many different ways but yeah what a beautiful way to articulate it I'm okay I'm okay it could be worse oh here we go off we go. Yeah and like I said in the job I was at the head teacher was kind of really supportive with me kind of with progression and stuff and I did realise actually like I don't it wasn't that I don't hate the school I'm in by a long way I don't hate the profession it's just the stuff there'd been a years of little things building up I did did hate that were just like I said maybe small things to other people but to me it was just like I can't this is not the way I want to do it I want to go in and I was always relationship before anything with my class and with the kids it's about that relationship before I'm doing anything else I want to get that kind of that technical the buy-in everyone talks about now but I want the relationships there I want them to know kind of that I'm a human before I'm a teacher and then there was a few little things that delayed it like obviously I threw myself into reading focusing on that and trying to improve reading the book that I'm sure everyone's read the final year came out and it was like I remember I got that involved we read that school and did loads of loads of work around that and it was like that was a bit of I've loved this this is something new finally I've got something new in but I think although I say that there's things that delayed I think the nails the nail the coffin was well and truly kind of nailed shut by then but it was just how and then somebody I'd kind of known on and off through our children at school had mentioned they'd been in FE for a while and had mentioned a role at their company but the money wasn't the same so I just can't like I'd love to I just can't and then I think maybe even a year or so went past and then it came back and was like actually salary wise it made sense but even then even then I was talking myself out of it because you got to think I'd worked so hard to get and I was so proud to say I'm a teacher I'd speak to people and they'd be like how have you ended up a teacher like if you met people that knew me as a kid and as a young adult it's a what I say it's the furthest thing you'd expect it literally is have you read the book teach survive repeat by mark ricard it is a blisteringly honest expose of life behind the staffroom door far from the inspirational posters and recruitment campaigners this unapologetic book dives into the harsh truths of modern teaching where burnout toxic leadership and data-driven madness have replaced passion purpose pedagogy through unflinching personal accounts and anonymized testimonies mark ricard reveals the emotional toil institutional failures and systemic injustices that define the teaching profession in the uk part memoir part manifesto teach survive repeat is both a survival guide and a wake-up call a must read for educators policymakers and anyone who still believes the system is working now available in paperback and ebook and i've got it on my coffee table i think in fairness jay like my generation i talked to you about a 2.4 existence but my my parents university was like through your lens that is what middle class people do doctors go to university so for my parents to to say you know oh our daughters went to university and they teach us that badge of honor defines success it absolutely captures an identity to say i've done everything all right to be able to sit there jay and say i am a father i have sustained a relationship i am in a long-term committed relationship with a wonderful i have no doubt with how many kids have you got four now i got the boy in my life four children it's just turned through yeah okay you've got four kids you've got you've got a rock solid partner i don't think it's going to be perfect i should imagine it's chaos at the best of times you're getting a parrot that kind of thing but let's look at who who you are you are the father figure that you you you only talked about an uncle so and that uncle was probably distant in many respects you are at you are a paternal figure at the heart of your family you totally broke that generational cycle part of it is hooked desperately into this identity of i am a teacher that level of respectability that just coming through that the minute you leave teaching and you try to explain what you do beyond the classroom and it's not just captured in one word i'm at this and i'm back and i started like do this in ethic you lose the ease and that's a lot of the reason why people stay in the classroom to keep that identity because who am i if i'm not a teacher so for you more than most of our pit ponies some of our pit ponies jay that you won't have had have the added pressure of letting their parents down by leaving the classroom what do you mean you're leaving you've got a pension you've got six weeks paid holiday over the summer it can't have been easy for you to even consider losing all those trappings that find you so it was really brave to even allow particularly when it's seated in gratitude i shouldn't have got to university i shouldn't be a teacher i shouldn't be in this classroom oh and and now i'm giving it all up because i'm not quite happy it was a real battle and i talked myself out of it and at the same time i'd i'd had a i was going for another deputy job but i'd had like an informal chat when you go and visit and it was really a great conversation with a teacher and i was really positive about it so i had that thinking what if i'm i finally i've been working the last two three years to get to the depths even though i'd realize actually it's not gonna fix things but i just thought actually so i'd had that and obviously the that the whole what you've just said about being a teacher was in my mind sarah as much as i was like go like you do what you want to do if we was obviously both worried about i'd always been there for all the holidays with the kids that potentially not being there and there was all of this thing and i'd kind of come and thankfully thankfully they held out for me and they didn't just say oh what you're like you're taking a piss now we need a yes or no they rude they held out for me because i did obviously i made the jump but thankfully they they held out when i was kind of i was messing them about for being honest i was i'm in an orion and actually and they didn't have to do that but making that jump was yeah a big gamble but honestly it is one of the best decisions i've ever made um so what is it you do exactly because we've lost that we've lost the ease with which you can just say i'm a teacher where is where is it you're working what is it you're now actually doing jay yeah like i said i still struggle myself but it's in um so it's in further education and we are a remote apprenticeship provider um so it's business leadership and coaching apprenticeships um and i am the curriculum innovation manager so um obviously making sure the curriculum is is uh as good as it can be um starting to work a bit more with the delivery which is obviously passionate i'm really passionate about that remote delivery is a whole like put me in a room with however many people faces there are not an issue but put me on a screen with all these little boxes that's a whole new world but um so looking into that kind of and i've this is like a little again i've thrown myself into a little the research around remote pedagogy which is there's not much of it um so that's it's opening up into that area as well but yeah so it's a remote apprenticeship provider um and just loving it loving it it's honestly like i said the best thing i ever done um isn't it interesting the full circle yeah of you ending back in apprenticeship education when you yourself were not supported in your apprenticeship and being able to well well when they said it apprenticeships in my mind is bricklayer carpenter plumber it wasn't what you can go to get an apprenticeship in business leadership or team leader or coaching what are you talking about in my mind it was the trades but i mean it's the same principles you still build a portfolio it's all work-based evidence um but yeah like i said it's just and maybe i'm just lucky because i'm with a great company but the freedom the trust all the stuff i was kind of i was yearning for and trying to get i've kind of got now which is like i said best decision i ever made hello loyal listeners it's that time in the episode when me and sarah put out our little begging bowl and ask you to help fund our podcast because it's coming out of our pockets and our kids have been living on beans on toast for months while we've been messing about pretending we live on loose women there's going to be a link in the episode notes and it's called buy us a coffee this is your chance to help fund the podcast give a little something back thank you have you ever have you ever listened at great depth to stephen bartlett and his story where he came from stephen barlett barlett diary of a ceo yes i've not listened to his story but i've listened to some of his his podcasts yeah you you need to listen to some of the work he does and sits around and um ramesh ranganathan people who have not had the easiest of starts so if you listen to stephen bartlett he he should not be where he is today and he is absolutely obsessed with understanding what it is about an individual who've given their deck of cards early on in life but absolutely not be where they are today and i think i think that's a really i'd like you to go down that rabbit hole and and really work out what it is about somebody like you who breaks the generational set of behaviors who is the local boy come good who who said crime or football that was yeah is it is it circumstances was it the fact that that bouncer flotched that you make one night i believe sarah would have found you at some different it just happened to be that night yeah i think who you are as a person your wheelchair your cast all of those things that happened to you really look into what it was that and i don't think it's one thing no i don't think it's one thing but it's been it's been fascinating to listen to it tell me what you like as a dad i try i try and i i read something the other day a quote i can't remember who it was from says forgive your parents they were still learning so as much as as a parent you beat yourself up all the time don't you my two eldest of they both my oldest is she's got um she's been diagnosed with adhd and autism but more inwardly so on the surface you wouldn't particularly notice but she struggles in friendship groups because as for a kid she's just being annoying or for anyone that meets her after a while it's like you might find it too much so she struggles uh my youngest is more outwardly she's we've always thought she's just a bit of a wild while you're in everything up every tree over every fence so we're still learning but you beat yourself up as a parent all the time am i am i what am i doing am i doing good but ultimately what we me and sarah are they're nice children then that's what we want be nice children they're not particularly academic but my thing is do your best as long as you can come out of that lesson that day that whatever it is and say right i've done as good as i can do as all i ask for be nice people do your best and um touch wood i think all four of them that will kind of be ingrained in them but like i try i think now i'm around a lot more and i try my best with it and it's but jay it's it's what you were talking about in the early days it's role modeling kids don't listen to a single thing we say but they watch and copy everything we do yeah that's it they watch and they copy and they've not seen a dad who's stuck at a job for life and it's made him miserable they've seen a dad who's changed who's learned who's who's kept lifelong learning going i i wanted to do a master's i did this i read about this i i schooled myself on this i should imagine they've got an equally but different role model with their mum so look at the family that you've got now okay so with that in mind we talked about sliding doors moments didn't we yeah okay and i always leave that um that with our guests you know what is what would be your slide and they're talking they talk to begin with don't they well this has changed and that's changed since teaching walk us through sliding doors for you jay um i think that's i've been thinking about this a lot and there's been lots just simple doing the school runs being there to help sarah in the mornings like i'd get the text message on my playtime this morning was a nightmare but now being there and experience it now i appreciate even more what she's done on her own um but small things like being there um being able to do the food shop with sarah we're going out we're going on monday we're going to the food shop things people probably hate but i've never had the chance to do it um i've eaten the real the biggest one so far i remember i'm only just over six months out was being able to go to um sports day like seeing them see me so i didn't we hadn't told them um and i've never been i've missed them all because i was always riding out on my own sports day at school and because obviously having three children in school my head teacher couldn't give me three separate days out um but yeah being there seeing their face watching them win races and take part and them seeing me and just soaking all of that in and i remember just taking a second just standing on the field thinking like this was beyond me i've never been able to do this and just trying really going into that trying to soak it up and this is tiny things to say she's done it so many times it's like our sports day but for me it was like trying to soak everything up um because i remember once my mum coming to one sports day just but her being there for me was like massive she's just watched me do there was a tug of war that was the only one i was allowed to do um but yeah then being able to obviously me be there um and for me seeing them because it's always you hear the stories are i won or come second or come third it's just it's never the same but being there that was that was that's the biggest one at the moment um i think being there in general was the overarching thing just being more present i always tried to be present as much as possible um but actually physically being present on all of these different things now is is my big sliding doors because it's something i've just missed and you just don't really well i think that gets missed a bit with teachers people don't understand how much of their own family and things they miss and i was always brilliant because it was ingrained in me from that first mentor that i didn't like because she made me do things like this not to take work home so i was always good at getting my work done if i needed to work through lunch or whatever it was or stay a bit not taking work home not working late so i always had that kind of nailed down but i'd still miss so much or i'd get home and you're exactly you're sundays were ruined because you were fearing monday now sunday is great day i love a sunday but all of these little things people don't realize with teaching they miss out on so much with their own family that dread that sunday dread their end of half term that this almost a right of for some teachers you'd go back and they've spent the whole time marking it's like you're not at a break then like and and life is what happens while you're making plans it passes you by do you know what jay it's been a really special special episode for me this and sarah and i will obviously talk about you behind your back when you go so i don't want to go into too much of what i'm going to say about you but i think it would be fair to say that absolute respect i have loved your story i've loved your ability to tell it you've been captivating the energy surrounding you your drive and who you are as a person to me is the very very best of us and it's been an absolute privilege to hold space for you today and i will listen to this episode on many many occasions to come so jay on behalf of myself and sarah and our listeners i just want to say thank you and you didn't drop a c-bomb which was my biggest power i believe in it just yeah i try not to uh but love everything thank you it's um it's made me want to talk about it more to be honest i could be all day that's that's a story if ever you needed to inspire young people you should be the guest in the assembly talking to kids in the school you yeah maybe it's so heavy to look at but i'd love to what's meant for you in your life will not pass you by because you've been exactly where you've needed to be at the right time so i have no doubt it will come to you jay i just want to say thank you and all the best with the parrot thank you thank you thanks guys right before we start our epilogue sarah i'm sure this is something you'll want to do as well when we got off from jay because you and i have been ex heads of year and that kind of thing and i've organized assemblies in school if i was listening to this and i was still working in a school i would want that guy in an assembly speaking 100% right he hasn't got a polished assembly he hasn't got a brand he hasn't got something that goes into schools and does workshops but i know that's something he's keen to do so in the first instance if you're listening to this podcast and you have resonated a either with jay's story or b know there are kids in your alternative provision in your organization in your workplace that would benefit from anything jay can do find his details connect with him we'll put them in the show notes and definitely let's get that guy on the path of telling his story and sarah what a story i know i know it's it's so interesting when you when you listen to somebody who then you reflect back and go god he would have been brilliant to talk to some of my kids and i i'd even go so far as to say that actually he'd be somebody that i would want to come in and work with like groups of kids rather than necessarily an assembly um and i think he'd he could land in so many places it's like teacher training and and sen support do you know what i so yeah completely agree with you on that but for somebody to go through through what he went through as a child and then to come out of the education system with the sum total of nothing to then go on and achieve everything that he's achieved personally professionally to be i know i would have loved working with him as a colleague i absolutely would have done because he was about the kids and he was about supporting staff as well yeah i think he's amazing there was nothing when he talked that i don't know in a sense with me i thought yeah and i bet you were a nightmare to manage but you never marked your books i bet you never kept your head shut in a staff meeting i never got that impression that there was any edge to him at all he was just a hard worker he wanted the best for the kids every single person he spoke about along his path he spoke about with respect he didn't blame he didn't point fingers he his his has been quite an unusual route really and even after the call spoke with great love of his mum of the people in his life just just a really great human being who amplified for me the lunacy of some of our systems number one how we were failing kids in the 90s in the noughties number two even as a teacher with a family is told by citizens advice or the department dwp go unemployed he shouldn't be where he is today that guy no no as you you absolutely look at the track of of what his life circumstances have been and he he absolutely should not be where he is if if you pan it out on the on the traditional lines um i think i think for me it was it was interesting to go back to his timeline as a as a student for us as teachers who started around that period of time and to really reflect and and i think back to my first couple of schools so i did one school for a year and then i did i did another school for eight and those schools were not physically set up for for kids who had any physical my second school was on two sites excuse me um well not two sites but it was on one site but two buildings and they were they were a three minute walk so we had a five minute changeover in lessons um there was no lifts it was on ground floor first floor second floor so you you could not have reasonably accommodated a child in those circumstances um and also it was the days sarah of those who shouted the loudest he was not a problematic kid yeah he was running around he was getting in a few fights but he was in a school where behavior where kids would have behaved way worse than him so he slipped through the cracks because he was compliant enough not to become one of those kids that was the name that was mentioned in every staff briefing but had an army of ta's around them that was being housed in an environment that wasn't fit for them um i just really really liked him and i liked his energy and i liked his his passion really for life and it was a it was a great episode it really was and it brought in apprenticeships as well and as you know our jamie's doing an apprenticeship and that kind of thing we are doing things differently it doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all anymore and i just thought yeah i hope people listen to that and more than anything fell in love with the guest as much as the story because he's uh he was he was a really great guy so yeah just another great episode and what i would say to you is anybody out there who's got any ideas for jay we've got so many people who've now in charity organizations they're in foundations they're working in a whole host of different things i think he'd be a great podcast guest for people so any ideas of how to get jay on the map and his story i think get your thinking caps on listeners and let's get that guy in front of more people in any way we can absolutely agree how's that sound for you sarah absolutely agree he deserves he deserves to he deserves to be heard um but also he'd be great and and i'm going to say something really contentious the number of times that i've experienced people coming into schools and the message has been right but the delivery presents the delivery hasn't i think that's that's for me is where and he apologized afterwards didn't he like i'm sorry if it was rambling no you were telling the story and storytelling is so important when when you are trying to connect with other people and and particularly with kids they want the story they need to know the background so yeah anything we can do i think he's i think he's put himself on to linkedin now so i'll get his linkedin from him but if not he'll be searchable or if not get in touch with us and and we'll we'll pass stuff on so yeah definitely yeah we'll spelt it out perfect perfect all right then friend let's crack on with our day because what date is it day 21st of june yeah we were promised a heat wave 22nd yeah 22nd of june we were promised a heat wave it's now sheeting down with rain and blowing gales so we've been robbed we've had three days of our summer so far so hopefully you're listening to this in a couple of weeks in glorious sunshine okie dokie see you on the other side pal sure thanks for staying with us during another great episode of the pit pony podcast and on behalf of myself sarah dunwood mike roberts at making digital real we wish you all the very best and we'll see you soon if you wish to contact me directly for a support session or a clarity call for your next steps please find my link in the comments below see you soon