How to Find Your Communication Style in Midlife with Guest Dr Beth Dawson

What messages are YOU giving out?

How we communicate with others goes far deeper than the words we use... it's our body language too!

So how can we strike a balance, and make sure the messages we are giving out match our intentions.

To find out, I'm calling in the expert Dr Beth Dawson. Join me and Beth as we explore the subtle changes in how we communicate that Midlife brings - from speaking more honestly, via setting clearer boundaries to becoming less concerned with managing other people's impressions of us.

And don't miss Beth's insights and top tips for how to make communication our superpower. 

Connect with Beth

https://drbethdawson.com/

https://www.instagram.com/drbethdawson/

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Midlife Unlimited, the podcast for women who want more. I'm your host, Kate Porter, the Midlife Metamorphosis coach, and I know what it's like to feel stuck navigating the midlife maze. I've looked in the mirror and thought, who is that woman? So Midlife Unlimited is here to let you know you are not alone. You don't have to put on a brave face and put up with it. You don't have to play it safe. Midlife Unlimited is all about ripping off that mask and telling it like it really is. Nothing is off limits because together there's no limit to what we can achieve. So, welcome to today's episode. Now, surprise, surprise, I'm all about midlife metamorphosis. And as part of this, now is a great time to start being more honest. It's a time to reassess our boundaries and shed that constant fear of what others think of us and escape the grips of comparisonitis. But how we communicate with others goes far deeper than the words we use. It's our body language too. So how can we strike the balance and make sure that the messages we're giving out match our intentions? This is going to be interesting because to find out, I'm calling in the expert. And I'm delighted to be joined by my guest today, Dr. Beth Dawson, communication and behavior expert, to talk about how to find your communication style in midlife. So welcome, Beth. It's fabulous to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Thank you so much, Kate. It's lovely to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Now I think this is going to be quite an interesting one because body language, potential minefield, I'm sure, but also reinvention in midlife. It's a phrase that I hear again and again. It's something that we talked about in our pre-chat. And I will say dreaded word, but it suits here, it really does. Being authentic. And I know it's overused, but it is a good word. And that's something we're going to be touching on as well, isn't it? Expressing ourselves in a way that feels right.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, Kate. And I think that you know, they say that in midlife we revisit some of the things that we sort of went through during our teenage years. Um, and that was certainly my experience. So um my relationship with communication and you know, verbal and non-verbal communication, body language has actually not been straightforward. So I experienced selective mutism as a child. I had um speech blockages, I had times when I just like couldn't speak, I wanted to get the words out, I couldn't speak. So you can imagine in the 70s and the 80s, this was, you know, I was just the I was either the weird kid who wasn't speaking, or the really annoying, you know. I think my poor mum was probably just like, oh my goodness, you know, what is going on with her? Um, and what was really interesting was there were periods of my life when this was actually extremely sort of at the forefront. And one of those was my teenage years. My teenage years were so difficult. Um, you know, and it sort of speech felt physically blocked. So I really, really, really struggled. And, you know, as they say that often in midlife you sort of like revisit your teenage years. I found myself sort of having similar, you know, similar feelings and similar sort of blockages that were sort of coming back. So I had to, you know, really, really work on that. Um, so yeah, so my my relationship with communication has not been a straightforward one. Um, but I mean, I'm just passionate about communication, behavior, body language, you know, whether it's you know what we're saying or what we're not saying, absolutely passionate about it all. So and I think in midlife it's just a wonderful time to re-explore all of that.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Absolutely. And I'm delighted that later on you are going to be sharing your insights, your lessons learned, and your top tips for how we can find or re-find, rediscover our communication style and one that feels right for us because there's a lot of noise out there, isn't it? About how, and I will use the word should, everyone knows I hate the word should, but how how we should be behaving, how we should be showing up, we should be taking to the set stage, literally be centre stage. And it just doesn't feel right for all of us, does it? Or we can have spent years showing up in a way, both professionally and personally, that was expected of us, but now we're like this doesn't feel right, this is not me. And whether, as you say, it's verbally or uh physically, body language, it's time to actually take stock, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Absolutely, and I think that you know, in midlife, I think it's true that there is this. I think all of us we we kind of get to this point where there's less of a need to please for sure. Um, we don't want to be those people pleasers anymore. I think we have more clarity around sort of our values and what we want. And I think we do take stock. I think we we we we do sort of say to ourselves, you know, is this the life that I want to be living? Is this actually what I want to be doing? That's why we see a lot of women in midlife, you know, pivoting and they're completely, you know, you've had somebody being an accountant all, you know, for 30 years, and then all of a sudden, you know, they've pivoted in their musician or an artist, you know, something completely, completely different. Um, and I think that we also have we do have emotional resilience. I mean, you know, you get through the perimenopause and menopause intact, I think, with your hero because I think you've got to congratulations all round, yeah. Absolutely, you know, so we do have this emotional resilience, and I think that that shows up, you know, if we're talking about body language, that does show up with more sort of, you know, um more eye contact, less smiling, you know. Um, I will talk a little bit about smiling because there's sort of like a, you know, um, there is something to be said about, you know, embodying certain movements, but we don't sort of we get to a point where we don't want to oversmile, we're not into the people pleasing, you know, we we think more about our boundaries, but there's an actual contradiction because you know, we get to that stage, but actually, you know, I hear a lot of midlife women saying to me, yeah, but they still feel invisible. And I feel I think that what's happening is, and this is something that we don't talk about enough, is that society pays less attention to midlife women, and that's the fact. So we've come through this shift, we're shifting, we're changing, we're sort of saying to ourselves, hey, you know, where can we show up? We're no longer at the school gates because our kids, you know, no longer sort of need us to pick them up. Um in some cases, thank goodness. Uh it can be, you know, it can be fun and you know, it can Oh, the politics, the politics, yes. Oh, the politics of the school gate, absolutely. Um, so you know, we're not showing up at the school gates. You know, if we're in corporate, we're told at the age of 40, 45, that we're already in senior years, you know. Um, so you know, we're thinking about where are we showing up? Where can we, you know, where is our place? And I think that, you know, we have this sort of this need to be to be seen, but society doesn't see us, and that that's a reality. Um, you know, the roles shift, um, we're less externally validated. And so because of that, naturally we can sort of, if we think about our bodies and you know, our body language, we can make ourselves smaller, we can shrink ourselves, we can, you know, make ourselves a bit quieter because you know, we're sort of navigating that space. Like, where can we show up? You know, we're no longer, you know, expected at the school gate, we're no longer sort of expected, you know, incorporate on the promotional whatever ladder. So it's like, well, okay, well, where can we show up then and how can we show up? And that's about, you know, it's about navigating that new space, and that can be quite challenging, but it can also obviously be a lot of fun as well.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Oh, absolutely. Because I think when we're unsure and when we're perhaps almost still teetering on the being apologetic and still waiting for the whole permission to pivot to be find out what feels right for us now in terms of we'd follow these signposts, we've done what's expected most of the time, not necessarily, and now it's like what is next. So I say, if if we're not completely comfortable, I keep saying we're not going to be comfortable, but if we're not feeling uh ready to step into this next chapter, if we don't know, well, hindsight's a wonderful thing, you know, what's coming next, as you say, in terms of standing proud and bold and presenting ourselves to others, it doesn't feel like, oh no, who do I think I am? And then that immediately I'm I'm already kind of putting my hands to my chest, stepping back, being apologetic, shrinking. Yeah. And as you say, if we're being overlooked, if we're feeling invisible, it's just a natural feeling that shrinkage, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Absolutely, absolutely. So we have that, and I think that's why it can be it can be a challenge as well, because we have that contradiction of, you know, we do, you know, we physically we feel those changes in our bodies even before we sort of know it. We know that as women, because we have those physical changes. So we, you know, we know things are happening, we know things are changing, we know things are moving. So we've got that physically, but it's like, well, okay, fine, you know, when something's moving, it's like, well, where's it moving to? And it's those spaces, where do we step in? You know, which space do I step into? You know, um, my kids are growing up, you know, um career-wise, you know, we know that you know, in careers in corporate, it's it's it's a you know, it's a political game as well. You have to kind of play it. Um, and it's almost like, you know, okay, fine, things are changing, but changing to what? And how do I sort of navigate those changes? Um, and that's I think that's where we get that sort of mismatch because we do get to a point where we don't want to be people pleasing, we don't want to be oversmiling, we don't want to be compensating or you know, over explaining or filling silences. That's something else that I I I often tell women, you know, feel the need to fill the silence.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

And I think so often that's in in the past, that's something that I would particularly have done because you think, oh, you know, we we need to silence is a is a bad thing because it means that I'm I'm not conducting the conversation that's interesting enough or no one's interested in what I've got to say. In actual fact, you can fill it with a load of old rubbish, guys.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Absolutely, but also, you know, and it's it's funny because I, you know, I work with um with tea, I'm a higher education professor, I work professor, so I work with teenagers, and I often work with them on interview prep, you know, and it's it's a classic, you know. I'll say to them, look, you know, we've you you know, they've they've got their elevator speech and they've got their, you know, they're introducing themselves. And then it's that classic at the end when they've sort of finished where they're sort of like, oh, you know, um, it's you know, there's a silence and they kind of try and then fill that space. Um, you know, and I'll say to them, actually, no. And if you need to press your lips together, um, it doesn't look great when you do it, but if you have to do it, you know, then then do it. Then, you know, just stop yourself because, you know, invariably the other person, it's not an awkward silence. They're just probably thinking about what they want to say next, they're thinking about their question. And I think it's something that we often do as women as well. We try to fill the silence, we try to, you know, we think it's awkward. Actually, no, we can just allow that silence to be. Um, you know, we don't have to rush to fill it, and you know, we don't always have to over-explain things either. We can oh yes, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

When you make to the silence, I just had a flashback, and it probably is a complete flip to what you're saying because it's more about the power struggle, but that wonderful scene from The Wolf of Wall Street, where it's holding the silence and the first one to speak. And obviously, that's a sales picture, which is a completely different scenario, but it just shows the power of the pause, for want of a better phrase.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Honestly, the power of the pause, and I love that. Think about that the menopause, the power of the pause. Yeah, the pause is so powerful. Um, and we can use it, we can use it, you know, not to, you know, I always say, and you talked earlier about authenticity, and I think that is extremely important, and it's about, you know, it's it's about communicating as we, you know, as ourselves, it's not about being someone else, it's not about, you know, the loudest voice in the room if that's not us. You know, it's about communicating with authenticity. Um, and you know, you can use pauses, you can use silence. Uh, they can be extremely, extremely powerful. And I do feel, and I'm saying this because this was a mistake that I used to make, is that I would rush to kind of fill in a silence.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, I don't want people to feel uncomfortable. Oh, goodness, or you know, don't, you know, let's not have that awkward silence. And actually, I just I don't do it anymore. I just stop.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Because I read something the other day, and it really struck me because we say about you just said about, you know, you don't have to be the loudest in the room. And sometimes we can feel a particularly if we are feeling invisible, if we are feeling that we're fading away, that we have to be loud and bold and this. But it I really am a firm believer that the loudest person in the room isn't necessarily the one that makes the most impact, isn't necessarily the one that's most magnetic, most charismatic, the one that people remember afterwards. It's not about being loud, it's about be am I going to use the word again? It is about being authentic. Apologies for the overuse of the word, but let's bring it back, let's re-own it because I can never think of an alternative word.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Um, I agree. I don't think the I'm, I mean, I know it's it it's yeah, we see it all over the place on social media at the moment, authenticity, and especially in this world of AI, but I don't think there is an alternative, and I think it's you know, it is a lovely word. I mean, it's it's about being, you know, who we are, it's about being true to ourselves. In fact, I'm jumping ahead because that might be linked to one of the questions that you're gonna ask me later. Sorry. Um no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

We can always revisit, we can always come back around. No, but another thing you mentioned briefly just now, and I know it probably will come probably into your tips and insights, but it's just something I thought I'd mention. Smiling. Now I'm quite, and I know you are as well, I'm looking at it now. I'm quite a naturally smiley person, but I'm a firm believe I can firm believer, gosh, again, I'm using that phrase about the real smile, because there's nothing worse than when someone gives you that smile that is smug, they're not smiling with their eyes, it's smug, it's patronizing. I mean, I think it is we have to be quite careful, for want of a better word, how we use smiling. Because to me, if it ain't genuine, don't use it. But then, and I know we talk about power poses, a lot of people like, oh, they make and you're not a fan of those, are you? And I think, well, maybe some people they work for something. I I've tried them. I think sometimes in the morning, standing in front of the curtains, waving my arms around. But Mona Lisa's smile, and again, body language tricking our minds into that very subtle upward curve that can be quite powerful if we're feeling a bit shaky, can't it? Absolutely. Two points there fake smiles for good and for bad. So there's two, yeah, not a fake smile in communication with others, but perhaps in communication to trick our own brains, a fake smile does have its place.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

I mean, it's you know, we often say, uh, and this is where, you know, Amy Cuddy, she talked about and her TED talk is fabulous, but I know she, you know, often people sort of said, well, it's it's a little bit too simplistic, but I think it's it's it's great because she's talking about the fact that we embody something. So, you know, an embodiment, we are, you know, animals. I mean, we're you know, we're physical creatures, and you know, in order to feel confident, we always say in you know, behavior and body language analysis that um you know, in order to feel confident, you have to embody it first. It's not about the mindset, it's actually about you know embodying it, and that can be something simple as you know, and we know that ourselves when we do it, you know, rolling your shoulders back, standing up a bit taller. Um, and you talked about the smile. So the smile is a really interesting one. So there's a you know, in body language, there's a genuine smile, it's called the Duchenne smile, and you can tell it's a genuine smile because it actually uses different muscles in the face. So when you see like the eyes crinkling, you know it's a genuine smile. Um, and then we have a lot of other smiles that are used in public, and you know, I do a lot of analysis for the press. So, you know, it's fascinating. I love it. I just did something actually earlier this morning, and I did, yeah, um, for the US Mirror, and it was Chris Jenna um greeting Bad Bunny. And she, you know, and what was really fascinating, and what people had noted, um, you know, because obviously it's it you you get you see the comments, people had noted that her smile didn't look authentic. And it wasn't an authentic smile, but it was a social smile. The alternative, you know, she she's we are also social creatures, and you know, there's you know, we we function in society, and she couldn't sort of very well, I mean, she probably could if she'd wanted to, but she couldn't really, she knew you know the cameras are on her, if she'd scowled at him, if she'd looked, you know, if she'd frowned, whatever. So she did give a social smile. It wasn't an authentic, genuine smile. Um, but you know, those smiles also do serve a purpose. But what you're talking about are those sort of fake, phony smiles.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Like painted on smiles. It's like, uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, and we all hate those because you know, and as I said, you know, humans, we're very much in tune with what other people are telling us with their body. We know it, you know, you don't need, you know, to read uh 50 million books. We we're, as I said, you know, we have our instinct and we know very well when somebody is giving us a fake smile. And of course, it's not nice, it doesn't make us feel good, and you know, we're reading it as a fake smile, and that's how it lands with us. So, you know, those kind of smiles are obviously not very nice. Um, but what you mentioned, and I think this is really, really, really interesting and really important, is that you said, you know, when we do smile, and you know, you do hear this, you know, coaches will say, you know, give yourself a smile, smile at yourself in the mirror, and you know, say actually, there have been studies that prove that this can actually have an effect on the brain, and they can actually have oh, I I use the Mona Lisa smile to buck myself up. Absolutely, it's an absolute fact. You know, there's been a lot of research in this, and I feel that you know, sometimes it's it can be a little bit sort of overlooked or maybe underestimated, but embodying is super, super, super important, and it can actually have a huge impact on how we feel. Um, you know, as I said, we're physical, we were physical before we had language. Go back years and years and years ago, uh language came later. Um, we were very, you know, it was all about, you know, the body and the physical language first. And you know, you can change the way that you feel by changing, you know, some of your your postures. I'm not going to say it's going to change your life dramatically, but you know, if it gives you a little bit of a boost in the morning, you know, if you wake up in the morning and you're you're thinking, gosh, I'm at a bit of a uh feeling a bit low and I'm a sort of a seven. Um, well, if you could bring that to down to sort of like a six or a five in terms of you know, you want to feel a bit better about yourself. Well, you know, if it's can you give yourself a smile in the mirror and just say, you know, a few words and you know, maybe put on a song and have a bit of a you know, move, you know, dance or whatever. I love that. It's brilliant and it can work, it can give you a bit of a boost, and you know, why not?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

And it is it's a time of experimentation, isn't it? As well. I mean, I say about you know, childlike curiosity, let's try. There's nothing wrong with trying these things and taking a bit of time for ourselves. And I just want to loop back a bit, I just talked about childlike curiosity, and I know that when we were chatting before, you were saying that our brains actually change in menopause, and that is as you say, the kind of not reliving teenage years, but situations or feelings or behaviors from then can resurge in terms of our communication.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Absolutely. So the brain um can change, so it changes dramatically. I mean, the brain is a fabulous, I mean, fabulous machine. I don't think we know enough about brains. I think we should be pinging more into our brains and how.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Oh, I find it fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

So do I. I mean, all of us, I think we should really, you know, we all have different brains, you know, we all have the same hand, five fingers, but you know, your hand might be stronger, you might have longer fingers, I might have uh, you know, a shorter thumb or whatever. Why are not, you know, why don't we think about our brains in that way? Our brains are extremely individual, and we should know the most important thing is for me is that we all know our own brains and how they function. And so you talked about brains changing, and you know. I think we just don't know enough about our brains to be honest with you, but they change dramatically. So there's in a woman's life, there are three periods of time when the brain changes absolutely dramatically. That's when they're toddlers, when they're teenagers, and when they're peri and premenopausal and menopausal. And so it's been said that in menopause or perimenopause is that often we kind of, I don't want to say regress, because I don't want to say that, but things that we lived through as teenagers that can come back. And so, you know, I've talked to clients who've said to me, gosh, you know, as a teenager, I was, you know, as interesting because I used to do this. And gosh, you know, in menopause, it's been really interesting because I realized that that was kind of, I was doing that again, and it was just so bizarre. And I had all these weird sort of, you know, kind of flashbacks to my teenage years. So I think it's absolutely fascinating. And I think that um the more that we know about our brains, I think the better we can, you know, manage whether it's relationships, communication, uh, ourselves, basically. I think it it's it's it's super important.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Um I I'm presuming, not assuming, presuming that that would apply to both verbal and physical communication, then they might notice traits, we might notice traits like you were saying before about you know your your not struggle to communicate verbally, but barriers perhaps to verbal communication. So, did you find that you compensated or still do perhaps by being very aware of your own physical body language?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yes, absolutely. So, I mean, I did really, really, really struggle as a teen with communication. And when I say that speech blockages, I would, you know, I would stand up and I mean, I know a lot of us have problems with with public speaking, but you know, it would even just be with friends. I would suddenly have sort of like this real blockage where I just couldn't physically speak, and that would show up um even like on a physiological uh level as well, you know, my breathing would get much um shallower. It would just be really, really difficult. And I realized that, you know, a couple of years ago, and I worked for a long time as well in corporate, I've worked in corporate communications for a long time alongside my teaching and my business. And I realized that that was kind of coming back, you know, I would be standing up in meetings and I could feel it, yeah, sort of like this the the you know, the breathing, the breathing becoming much narrower. And so obviously, because I've studied it and I know what to do in those situations, I would then work on that. And you know, it wouldn't be like in you know, the times when I was a teenager and sometimes I would just have to leave a room. Um, and it's it happened where I would literally just leave the room. I worked on it and you know, I would be able to manage it, but yeah, absolutely. It was almost like being a teenager again. I was like, Oh my goodness, how long is this gonna last? What else is gonna happen?

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Debilitating, but also as you say, the the whole fear of judgment and everything else comes into it as well, doesn't it? Um, now you did say then obviously you now know how to help yourself, how to whether it be calming, whether it be, I don't know, stance, etc. etc. So do you think would now be a good time to start moving into your tips and insights, the lessons that you've learned that you can share with our fabulous listeners, because even if they're very confident, they're very happy in their own skin, it's still really, really important, no matter how confident we are in communicating, it's all about making sure the message lands, isn't it? And we can think we're doing a bloody brilliant job. We can think we've said exactly what we want to say, we can think that everyone's got us, and then there can be that sudden realization that the message we put across has either been um stifled or or interrupted by our body language, or we just have not been successful in putting across the point that we meant or the feeling that we meant. I mean, in terms of argumentative stances or being abrupt, all these different things are now springing to mind. So if we're reinventing, if we're metamorphosizing, what are the things that we can bear in mind now to make sure that moving forward, whatever our past communication skills have been like, that now for peace of mind, for peace of body, one of the best ways for us to approach finding our own communication style?

SPEAKER_00 26:41

So finding your own communication style, I think is exactly what we said earlier about being authentic. And I think that one of the things that we often say about midlife, it's about finding your voice. What I like to say is it's about trusting it, trusting yourself. I think trust is super, super, super important. And I think that midlife gives us something really powerful, it gives us experience, resilience, and it gives us intuition. And we really need to trust it. And so what often I say to women that I work with is, you know, if that feels off, it probably is. And trust yourself because I feel that you know, we sort of learn, I think, especially as women as well. I was reading a book actually not so long ago about the good girl, and it was about how girls were always told, you know, we all know this, you know, you have to be good and you don't want to, you know, upset the person and this and that and whatever. And it's always like, oh, okay. And so we sometimes override all of those instincts. And the for me, the most important thing is really to trust ourselves and to trust what we're feeling. Um, there's a wonderful quote, it's Maya Angelou, and she always says, and she says, You don't always remember what people say, but you always you never forget how they make you feel, and it's so true. And so leaning into that and really thinking about, you know, if something feels off in a conversation, it probably is. And I say to women, don't override that, instead, just get curious what's happening, you know. So that would be for me one of the most important tips really is to kind of first of all to trust yourself and trust what you're feeling, but then to get curious, what is going on? Observe, ask questions if you can. Context is everything. It's really interesting because, you know, with body language, I often get people saying to me things like, um, you know, well, does it mean if somebody's, you know, crossing their arms that they're being defensive? And I say, absolutely not. It doesn't necessarily mean they're being defensive. You have to look at context. Context is everything. It might, you know, somebody might be crossing their arms because they've got a tattoo on their, on their, on their, on their shoulder or something, and they're just hide, they want to hide it, they're self-conscious about it, or they're crossing their arms because they're cold. Um, you know, there's a lot of things that, you know, come into play when we're observing others, and the more observant we are, the better communicators we are, obviously. And you know, so my first tip would totally be to trust ourselves. As I said, we have this amazing gift in you know, in midlife is that we have this experience, we have this resilience, we have we've got a whole data bank to draw on, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Of past experiences when someone looked at me like this or behaved like this, what was the outcome? What happened? And I say as you said, to start recognized behaviors and perhaps to preempt situations when you think, Hey, uh, something is going on here, someone. If you've got that that feeling that they're not being straight with you, yeah, or you know that you're not being straight with them, but think, why? Why do I feel the need to be holding something back here?

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Absolutely. And actually, that is something else that that would be a second tip. It's about observing others, but observe, thank you, thank you, Kate. Observing others, but observing yourself. So thinking about, you know, why do I, you know, in this situation, why am I making my voice a bit quieter? Why am I standing more at the back of the room as opposed to over in the middle of the room? You know, why have I just hunched my shoulders up a little bit? It's about really sort of observing our own body language, our own behavior and what we're actually doing and sort of questioning, you know, what's what's happening, what's going on. And it's not sort of about, you know, we don't have to, you know, sometimes we are with people that we, you know, we have to sort of spend some time, you know, if you can avoid spending time with people who don't, you know, don't make you feel good, then obviously that's the better thing to do. But sometimes it's sometimes we have to.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

No, sometimes we have to.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Sometimes we don't have the choice, you know, and of course we can limit it as much as possible. But if we are in a situation, you know, again, it's about sort of knowing ourselves, okay, fine, I'm not feeling very comfortable here. What can I do to, you know, make myself feel more comfortable? What can I do for myself? So that my communication is authentic and it is as authentic as I want it to be. And you know, I was listening, it was so fast. I loved um the latest, I think it's your latest episode, and you were talking about lying and being deceptive.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Oh, Susanna, yeah, how to be honest. Gosh, and it's such a can of worms, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 31:30

It's a can of worms, and I loved it. And I loved actually what you said that, you know, in some social situations, we can't be as honest as we want to be. It's just not possible, you know. We are social creatures after all, and we're not going to go around telling everyone, you know, the absolute truth, because then we might, you know, we might find ourselves completely.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Well, I think it's so it's so important to ask why, why are we feeling this? If it is the absolute truth that may not necessarily be a palate, a palatative pleasant truth. Um why do we feel the need to say it? And also, how's it got to this state? You know, how have we got to this position?

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Because surely we feel absolutely I loved what you said because you said, you know, if you're in a situation where absolutely you are feeling that uncomfortable, then you really need to, you know, question what's going on and you know, maybe do something about it. Um, so you know, that is super important as well. You know, lying, you were talking about being honest and lying. I mean, lying is a form of communication, after all. And you know, a teenager is perhaps not going to be as brutally honest with his, her, or their parents as we might want them to be. But there's also a reason for that. That's you know, a lie can also give you, um, you know, in communication, we talk about lie giving you space. So, you know, if you have a an extremely strict parent and you're a teenager that, you know, it's not really up to anything that they shouldn't, but it's just that you needed a bit more time out with your your mates, and you know, so instead of sort of saying, Well, actually, I didn't want to come home at 10, you asked me to come home at 10, so I'm home at 11, you know, that team might say, Well, I missed the last bus or something. And okay, it's not honest, okay. You know, in terms of black and white, it's it's it's but it's serving a purpose, and you sort of have to ask yourself, well, what is the intention behind the lie? Um, so I loved all that, you know, that conversation that you had with was it Susanna? Was it Susanna? It was fabulous. I love that episode. Um, totally recommend anyone listening to this episode.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Go and tune in now. Go and tune in, absolutely get your podcast. But it is it's reading between the lines almost, isn't it? And I I think the more we know people, the the easier. I don't know if that's the right word this is, because perhaps obviously I talk a lot here with my guests about shifting friendships, shifting relationships, and communication and body language. Sorry, I'm taking you off kilter from your top tips for a minute, but communication and and body language with loved ones, particularly. This can be a really important time to make sure we get that. I won't say right, but to make sure that we get this authentic, to actually make sure that what we're meaning to say isn't, oh, you don't you don't understand what I'm saying, or oh, you've taken me the wrong way, because we could end up with screaming rows and doors slamming, or with teenagers as well, can't it?

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Absolutely, 100%. And the the the you talk there about sort of like with loved ones and knowing people, and I think that is very, very, very important. It's understanding somebody's baseline. You know, I'll say to parents, if you're, you know, they'll say, Well, my teenage is being disrespectful, and I'll say, Well, you know, how are you seeing? Well, tell me what you're seeing, and you know, actually they're they're they're describing something that could be interpreted in many different ways. So, you know, often it's about how we're interpreting something as well. We're bringing, you know, we all know that we're bringing our uh you know our own sort of perspective to a conversation. And so best communication can happen when we kind of take a bit of a step back and we when we can be as neutral and as objective as possible. Although, as we all know, as soon as we've got emotions involved, it's very difficult to me. It's very hard, it's very difficult. So, you know, sometimes even you know, I'm telling you, I I you know, I've got all the I know all the rules, all the communication tips, and you know, and yeah, I still get it wrong sometimes. And you know, you have to sort of sometimes really take a step back, take a step outside of yourself and look at what you're observing almost in a sort of like a clinical fashion. Yeah, I mean, it's I mean, I love, I mean, communication is just for me. I just so passionate about it, and I think it's it's it's not it should be a it should be studied at school, it should be on the curriculum because it's everything, you know, our whole lives, all our relationships. It's all about how we communicate, and it's so complex. It's so complex from what we think we've said, from what we've actually said, from what the other person has heard or the other person has, you know, understood. I mean, there's a million ways to be to miscommunicate, basically. So, you know, it's absolutely miscommunication.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

That's a lot of a lot of the things that I talk about with my clients because we can get so upset by something that someone else has said to us. And I I love putting it in perspective because we don't know what's going through there, what's happening in their day, uh, that you know, things that they're going through that could affect their tone of voice, the the actual words that they've used. And as we said, in as much as we try and think about how we best communicate, I think it's really important, and maybe kind of if the a takeaway to flip it round and bear in mind that when people are talking to us, they're not always in touch with their own best communication style, are they? That they might be being reactive rather than thinking things through.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Yeah, absolutely, 100%. And the other thing as well is timing. And I think people miss misunderstand or underestimate timing. So, you know, an example of this is you know, you've got your kids coming home from school, um, you know, they've just come in and immediately, you know, often a parent's, you know, they're super oh, great, you've just come home from school. How is school? And it's absolutely not the right time to ask that question. Um, and they've misread that kind of, you know, the Greeks had a word for this, chronos, and they sort of said that, you know, timing is absolutely everything. And I've often said to, you know, to clients, if you had asked that at a different moment, what do you think the reaction would have been? And they'll say, Yeah, you're right. I think I it was the wrong time. Um, and so thinking about timings as well is super important. And you just said, you know, we don't know what's going on with people. That's why I often say, you know, sometimes it's nice to sort of say, Is this, is this a good time to chat about this? Is this the right time? I mean, that person might might not respond honestly either, but that that's you know, that's that's that's on them in that in that situation. You know, you're giving them the opportunity to say, yes, this is actually the right time to talk about this. And you know, the typical example of a kid coming home from school, you know, they're exhausted, they've been holding it together all day at school. We all know what school is like. Oh my lord. I mean, school days, the best days of your life. Would you go back? Probably not. Um, no, um, I'm a teacher. I love it as a teacher, but you know, it was that, you know, school, we all know the pressure, the peer pressure, the, you know, the sitting in a classroom from goodness knows what time in the morning to whatever time, you know, and kids come home from school, and the last thing they want is to be asked, Did you have a good day? Um, but you know, we've got a huge mismatch in terms of, you know, the parents have been, you know, they're just super excited or happy. Oh, great, you're home. Did you have a good day? And they just want what happens is then conflict because they're like, oh God, you know, you're not you can't even answer my simple question. You're being so, gosh, you're so disrespectful, you're so rude, you're so this, and then you know, you've got kids these days that all got always got their, you know, their ear pods in, and they haven't heard you anyway. Yeah, exactly, exactly. They haven't heard anyway, it's absolutely that. And so there you've got a perfect recipe for like a miss communication, and timing is absolutely everything.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

So that that's something that's really, really sticking with me then, because there are times where we need to have that conversation that we know is going to be tricky, yeah, not necessarily going to be pleasant. So perhaps advice to take away would be to not just think about what because often we'll pre almost pre-plan what we're going to say. Yes. But as you said, make sure that the actual uh circumstances that we're trying to have the conversation and be very aware of the the signals that we're giving out body language wise are in line with what we hope the outcome was going to be. So if we're, you know, try not to be confrontational or yeah, and it's listening.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

I think, yeah. Well, I mean, we're allowed to be pissed off, but if we're gonna be, if we're gonna go into a conversation feeling and being pissed off, then it's probably not gonna lead to a good outcome.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Yeah, every everything's already on edge, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Yeah, and like I say, I mean, we we are human, you know, we're animals after all, and we can see that, we know that, we know exactly. You know, we walk into a room and we can feel the you know, the energy or the negativity or the positivity.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Probably why I react so so to fake smiling, because I'm like, you're just not, yeah. Yeah, that wolf-in-sheep clothing feeling, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Yeah, nobody wants to feel that you know somebody is kind of out uh or or or taking the you know taking the piss, yeah, taking advantage. Yeah, absolutely. So going into a conversation, I mean the other tip coming back to my coming back to my tips, coming back to my tips. Um, the other tip, I mean, it's it's it's a very simple one, but it is super, super, super important, not just in midlife, and that is actually listening. And being a good listener is not something that comes easy to everyone. And you know, it often comes from the fact that we feel unheard, so we're absolutely sort of like, I just want to get my point across, I just want to be, and you know, it's so important to be heard and to be validated in life in general. But when we go into conversations, we kind of come in with that because we really absolutely desperately want to be heard. But if we if we shift that and go into that conversation saying to ourselves, you know what? I'm gonna really listen and see what's going on here for that other person, that can actually change the dynamic. And you know, we might still say to ourselves, well, he, she, they were completely wrong, complete idiots, or whatever we want to say to ourselves. We don't have to say it out loud. We don't have to say it to them, but we, you know, we might still think that, but actually, maybe not. We might come away with something like, oh, okay, didn't realize that he, she, they were thinking of this or that they were worried about that. Oh, I'll think about that. That's given me something to kind of take on board. And we talk about active listening, and it's really, really, really quite hard to do. People don't always do it, and it's about not just listening with sounds such a cliche, not just listening with these. It's a cliche, isn't it? But it's really about observing and just really kind of trying to understand what's going on for that other person.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Because I I think it's it's all too easy, isn't it, to almost preempt or think, oh, I know exactly what they're gonna say, and we don't. We don't know exactly what the old assume makes an ass out of you and me. And it is if we think, God, we've had this conversation so many times before, but there might be something else that comes out of it. We might actually be making a breakthrough.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

It is worth having it again if to see if we can reach common ground or whatever, if it is a kind of confrontational situation, yeah, and not expecting other people to be mind readers because people, you know, I I've had people say to me, but he should have known that. And I'm like, Well, did you tell him? No. Well, then okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

You know, sometimes people He's known me all these years, yes. But if we if we've changed or if our thought if we don't know ourselves, how on earth can we expect other people to know?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Absolutely. And I always say, you know, if you don't tell someone, then but then you sort of hear someone say, Yes, but if I need to say it, why blah blah blah? And I say, Well, sometimes you do. Sometimes you do, because some people are less apt at reading or understanding or knowing what you want. So, you know, sometimes you do have to say it. And okay, well, is that a huge problem? Just say it and then, you know, and then if you don't get what you want, well, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Say it. Follow your tips to make sure that we're saying it in a way that feels right to us, that is clear. So, what what would be your your main takeaway of tip, do you think, for all the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 44:29

For me, the the most important, I think, is really understanding your own body language and what you are conveying. Um, and there's some very simple things, you know, posture is a big one. If you are talking to somebody and you're sat like this or sat like this, you know, it's just like thinking, and obviously your your listeners can't see what I'm doing, but I've got sort of like I've slouch, yeah, looking disinterested, looking bored.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah. Would rather be somewhere else or absolutely, and it's just thinking about that, you know, how are you showing up? And you know, there are some very simple things that you can do, and posture is, you know, I often talk about posture, but it is such a simple thing that you can do, you know. How are you, you know, how are you showing up? How are you standing? You know, it's true that a slumped posture does show, you know, somebody who is sort of less engaged, less interested. It might not be the case, it's not necessarily 100% the reality. You know, again, what I said earlier about context is everything. Might just be that the person has, they might have a physical issue, they might have a back, you know, whatever. But it's thinking about some of the different things that you can do. I think taking up space as well is important, but taking up space in a sort of a in-your-face way, but using the space in a respectful way, but taking up that space, thinking about how you are entering into a room, thinking about those first contacts, thinking about I often talk about eye contact. Eye contact isn't always easy for everyone, but it's true that as humans, it's that is the way that we sort of connect. And for someone who says, Well, that's actually quite difficult for me to do eye contact, I sort of say, Well, try to linger a little longer than you, you know, you might try and focus a little bit on it because it's true that somebody who's kind of looking away, looking down, looking up, that can make the other person feel a little bit sort of like, Well, are they listening? Are they you know engaged? I know it's not easy, and we also, you know, have to bear in mind and take into consideration neurodivergency, and you know, there's a lot of stuff going on, but if it's something, you know, it's something that we can think about, you know, I'm not saying be someone else, absolutely not. You have to be, you know, we talked about authenticity, be yourself, observe yourself. How are you showing up? And how do you think someone else is sort of observing, you know, some of your non-verbal communication? The other thing that I said as well, the sort of like the con the verbal content that we're using, over explaining. I think it's something that often as women we t tend to do.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

You know, I say explain it once and yeah, yeah, just kind of one of my my classics that I used to do. Not anymore, not anymore. But uh, yeah, it all ties in with feeling that you have to uh the whole yes and no and why why am I doing this and what no, just say it, say it clearly it can be a no and it's a no, just because it's uh you know, and it doesn't have to be a brutal no, you know, and there's also tone.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Tone is super important. How things are said is important, and you know, if you're gonna say no, then well, okay, that other person is very abrupt, is yeah, no, yeah. It's you know, you don't have to say it that way, but you know, tone, you don't have to people please, nobody has to people please either, but you can say it in a way that is socially, you know, gracious.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

In a way that you'd like it said to you.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Absolutely, yeah, 100%. And you don't have to explain it. Yeah, it's a no, and thank you for asking, or thanks for yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Very kind of you. It's very kind we said that at the same time. I need to ask we're on we're on the same way, but now I know you've got something rather exciting coming up soon, and we're going to be sharing all your contact details in a minute. So I think if you're ready, it's time for us to move into your three questions that I ask each of my guests. So I'm gonna be watching how you answer these. Will you communicate clearly? The first one, obviously, music is a very powerful way of communicating. So what is your midlife anthem?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Well, I actually have two. Okay, so I think Shake It Off by Taylor Swift. Oh, yes, is a great midlife song. And I love it because it's basically about shaking off that negativity, just shaking off that, you know, what people think about us, it doesn't matter, who cares? But what I love about this is it's exactly what I was talking about earlier. It's about embodying, and it's the physical side of actually literally shaking something off. And it's something that I actually do with my students sometimes in class is I'll say, Come on, let's stand up, shake it out, let's we're both doing the tailor dance, that's shaking it off. Yeah, shaking it off. If you watch animals, um you know, if you I don't know if you have any, if you have a dog, for example. Yes, um dogs do this, they do this and it's like a reset. And you know, that's why I love this song because at the same time I love sort of like the message behind it. She's basically just saying, Who gives her, you know, just shake it off, whatever anyone thinks about you, just forget it. But it's also about the reset, and it's what I was saying earlier about the body leads the mind. And if you're an overthinker, and I think a lot of midlife women, we're often in our heads, we're overthinking, you know, we've got our brains, it's 20 forticular with communication as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Why did they say that? What did they mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah, you know, it's really important sometimes to get out of our heads and to actually physically, you know, so a song like this, you could put it on and you could dance about for two minutes or whatever. Um, and it's you know, it's about sort of like the emotions and sort of resetting the nervous system, if you like. So I love that, absolutely love that song, and the other one. Okay, so it's an oldie, it's an old, it's an oldie. Um, so Leo, Leo Sawyer, Saya, Saya. Oh, Leo Sawyer, I met him, yes. Have you met him? Oh my god. I met him, yes, absolutely love him. Okay, I'm showing my age here. Who cares? I love him and I love that song, You Make Me Feel Like Dancing. Oh, yeah, I love it because he's basically saying it's a fabulous song, and I think that it's just full of joy, but it's also that about again, coming back to the body language. Basically, what his song is saying, if you think about it, he's saying that the other person is really kind of making him want to kind of move his body in a really, really joyful way. And I think seeking out people who make you feel like that and feel you can feel it in your body. It's about, you know, we feel it in our body. We said earlier about sometimes you're with people that you know, you kind of have to sort of see them, you have to spend some time with them, but you know, you don't necessarily feel great. You can feel a bit tense, you can feel a bit stressed. But his song is about someone else making him feel just like he wants to get up and dance and you know, just feel really sort of joyful and in his body. And I feel that that's we should be seeking that with our midlife relationships. Somebody who makes us want to dance. It could be a you know, it could be one of our teenagers, it could be, you know, grab him, grab him on the kitchen floor.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Yeah, let's dance. Oh, I love it. What then? I want to hear this is your midlife mantra.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Well, I mean, I did sort of allude to it a little bit earlier, and um, I love ancient Greece. So I teach the communication um principles from ancient Greece. Uh, everything, all our communication, modern communication today, all came from the ancient Greeks. I mean, some of the you know, it's fabulous, amazing, you know, some of the advertising principles that we see, you know, it's all, it's all, it's all come from there, from the philosophers. And so my midlife mantra is know thyself. And that was attributed to Socrates. And I just think basically what he was saying was, and we talked about authenticity, and we said, you know, it's not about being the loudest person in the room, but I think this knowing yourself, it's about being aligned internally, and when you are aligned internally, then your communication lands authentically, and whether that's in a loud way, whether it's a big way, you know, you said earlier it's not always the loudest person in the room, and it's what we call in body language congruence, and you know, when you know yourself and you really trust, and coming back to what I said earlier about trusting yourself, your body is calmer while using less some of these what we call some of these nervous gestures that people do. And so the fact that your body's calmer, your voice is going to sound calmer, your tone is calmer, your message will feel more credible, more authentic. And when you're authentic and credible, people will listen and they listen differently. It's about knowing yourself, and things like when I say knowing yourself, and it's just you know, I said earlier about observing yourself and checking in, it's like, well, my shoulders just tensed when I heard that. I wonder why, you know, what's what's going on? What was it that that person said that made me feel yeah or tense? What was it?

SPEAKER_02 53:56

It's like triggers almost, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Yeah, you know, I'm smiling. It's like you said earlier about those smiles, you know, there's so many different smiles, but I'm smiling, but it doesn't feel very genuine. So why? And I think when you know yourself, you can be more obviously, obviously it goes without saying, you can be more authentic. Um, so yeah, so that is my midlife.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

And the final question, then before we go into your contact details, what is the title of your autobiography?

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Such a difficult question. I really had a hard time finding the title, but I am gonna land on Paris. And the reason being because I live here and I wanted, you know, I, you know, young girl, Yorkshire, um, speech impediments, school avoider, you know, all the all the things, but I set my sights on living in Paris. I wanted to live in Paris and I I made it happen. And the reason I wanted to have that as a title was because I wanted to say that you can choose which space you are in, you can choose where you show up. You do have that choice. I know we said earlier there are people that sometimes you have to spend time with, that's fine, but you can choose that space, and when you find a space that you're comfortable in, you can be your authentic self. It doesn't matter if it's midlife, it doesn't, you know, you can choose and you can be in a space that you feel comfortable in. And Paris for me was that space. I mean, I think like a lot of us, I come from a dyslexic, well, maybe not, maybe it's just my family that's dysfunctional.

SPEAKER_02 55:31

Uh oh no, we've all got one of those. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

We all got one. Oh gosh, okay. Yeah, well, you know, it's uh so you know what I mean when I'm saying about dysfunctional families. And I remember sort of feeling that well, I love you know, you you still love your family, of course you do, and you still see them, but moving into a different space, and Paris for me was that space I could feel and I could be and I could embody um who I wanted to be, and you know, and I think that's that's very important, and it doesn't have to be you don't have to move to a different country, you don't have to, you know, that space can also be psychological. It could be, you know, just moving into a different space, just taking some me time, absolutely, 100%. And it doesn't have to be a permanent fixture either, it can just be, like you say, taking some me time. So that would be, yeah, that would be my title because that was a place, this is a place that has allowed me to be authentic. I love Paris.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

I love I've been twice, I need to come again now to come and visit you. So obviously, all your details are in the show notes for our episode, and you have your guest profile on the Midlife Unlimited podcast website. But for the purposes of the tape, will you please let our listeners know how they can connect with you and anything you've got coming up?

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Okay, well, I'm very, very active on Instagram. I do post daily, and at the moment I'm doing my 30 days to a better body language because I'm so fed up with all the, you know, we're gonna see it now. It's coming to summer.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Bikini bodies, yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Bikini bodies, you've got 10 days to a better body and all that business. So I thought, well, 30 days for a better body language. Um, so I do show up on a regular basis on Instagram, and I'm doing a an in-person body language day in Paris on the 5th of June. And that's gonna be a fabulous day where we'll be looking at our body language, how to understand other people's body language. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. It's a small group, but absolutely, if you are interested, uh Kate, come over if you know something.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

Wonderful early birthday trip. Um, and is that on your website, the details? And what is your website?

SPEAKER_00 57:35

It's oh, so my website, dr so www.drbetdawson.com.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

And listeners, I'd love your feedback on today's episode. There's so much information there. I'm absolutely buzzing. So it'd be fabulous if you could leave a review, or you can email or text me via the link in the show notes and come and join the Midlife Unlimited podcast Facebook group. The link's there too, and you'll find the website link with details of my one-to-one coaching and coaching program. More that you can come and join now. So thank you for joining me, Beth. It's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you for listening. Oh, I loved it. Um, I look forward to you tuning in next week because don't forget Midlife Unlimited has a new episode every Thursday available wherever you listen to your podcasts. So here's to being fabulous and flourishing together and living midlife unlimited. Thanks, Beth. It's been brilliant. Bye.