How to Awaken the Sleeping Queen with Guest Nathalie Cordell

Do you ever have that nagging feeling that something is just not right?

You feel off kilter... lacking direction? Disappointed.

Lost in the Midlife maze wondering where the old you has gone, and just who is this woman you are right now?

Then this episode is just for you.

Join me and Psycho-Spiritual Coach and Author Nathalie Cordell as we explore how to find our way back from feeling lost. 

We delve into the heroine's journey and the power of storytelling.

And Nathalie shares her insights for how we can get to know our inner characters of the queen, witch, and prince, and learn how to identify the Midlife patterns they are driving so that we can reclaim our feminine wisdom and power

Connect with Nathalie

https://linktr.ee/NathalieCordell 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Midlife Unlimited, the podcast for women who want more. I'm your host, Kate Porter, the Midlife Metamorphosis Coach, and I know what it's like to feel stuck navigating the midlife maze. I've looked in the mirror and thought, who is that woman? So Midlife Unlimited is here to let you know you are not alone. You don't have to put on a brave face and put up with it. You don't have to play it safe. Midlife Unlimited is all about ripping off that mask and telling it how it really is. Nothing is off limits because together there's no limit to what we can achieve. So welcome to today's episode. Now, do you ever have that nagging feeling that something's just not right? You feel off-kilter, lacking direction, disappointed, lost in that midlife maze, wondering where the old you has gone, and just who is this woman that you are right now? Well, if this resonates, then this episode is just for you. Because I'm delighted to be joined by my guest today, Natalie Cordell, psycho-spiritual coach and author, to talk about how to awaken the sleeping queen. So welcome, Natalie. It's fabulous to have you here. Thank you, Kate. Yes, I'm like getting really excited just to stop. Well, I love the title, and all will become a clear listeners because it sounds a little bit cryptic. It sounds a little bit fabulous, to be honest, because obviously I have not stolen it, I have referring to the title of your book, which we're not here to sell, listeners, but we are it's part of Natalie's life journey, and we're celebrating that, and we're celebrating Natalie. But an alternative title could be How to Find Your Way Back from Feeling Lost, couldn't it?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah, how to find your way back to yourself. I think that's when people say, you know, what is your book about? And I could describe it in different ways, but it really is that. I think it's a map back to yourself, and it sounds slightly strange. You know, how can you lose yourself? But it's often, you know, I've had so many conversations with with women who are at that feeling. It's it's almost, you know, that's the best way they can describe it. They feel like I've lost myself.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

I'm completely I'm completely with you because it's something again that I hear both obviously in my coaching and just in general conversation, that word loss, that kind of who am I? And the fact that we we don't want to go back and become who we were, even if we knew who, you know, we've done that, we've done 30s, we've done 40s, but it is that all the changes, and we've oh, we've got so much to talk about. And I'm delighted that later on you're going to be sharing your insights, top tips, lessons learnt really, for awakening our sleeping queen, for learning to know, understand ourselves, bloody love ourselves again, I think. That's what it's all about, isn't it? But first, I'd love to delve more into your story because that's what Midlife Unlimited is all about. The woman, the woman behind the story, the woman behind the book, because something has driven this need to put your words on paper. But where where has this whole idea? I mean, is it from your own personal feelings? I'm guessing, of thinking, what is going on? Who am I?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah. I mean, we always say, you know, as coaches, I know you'll know this, you're always your first client. And so that's that's really that's where it comes from. And it's been from a, I would say a lifelong search, really. Uh, I mean, I now know that there is such a thing when I came across the word called seeker, I thought, oh, okay, so I think there are some people who search all their life, but I've I've always felt I never felt like I belonged, even in my my hometown, in my family. I think I had this feeling of, you know, where is my place, where do I belong, and wanting to be. I'm originally from France, yes. So I mean, they and there could be all sorts of psychological reasons why, you know, the the lack of belonging. But um, I think I've I've learned since then that I think it was part of my calling. Actually, being somebody who searches for answers is so ingrained in my personality that just um a thing that's part of my calling. I mean, I ended up studying chemistry, I went down the scientific route because um being in France, well, France is a secular country, so religion and the states are very separate, it's very uh that's where Descartes comes from, you know, when we call about, you know, the I think therefore I am. I think therefore I am.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

I started English and philosophy, that was my first degree, so uh love a bit of Descartes.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, yeah. And there's that kind of you know, the mind is powerful beyond everything else. I really feel it as a person born in France, you know, how much that shaped me. Um, and there was this idea that you know, what do you want to do in life? And I was interested in science, I also like languages, but you know, science was where it's at, you know, hot facts, studying math, and so that's where I went. You know, that curiosity for finding out how things work.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

You're gonna say answers, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, yeah, has been, and you know, philosophy is also part of it, you know, philosophy is a science. So, in a way, uh, because my in my book I talk about the spiritual context as well, and I had no spiritual context to me. Spirituality meant either religion, which I didn't really resonate with, or something a bit obscure and woo-woo, and just woo-woo phrase, yeah. Woo-woo and unreliable, you know, it's just yeah, it's just not not uh as important as logic and and scientific experiments. So that was my background, and you know, as I think many of your listeners will will um resonate, you know, you just follow little breadcrumbs. Life takes you places that you didn't really think that you would end up. I came to the UK to uh initially thinking I'll finish my degree here as part of the Erasmus program. I might do a couple of years, you know, then go back to France, and you know, 26 years later, I think I'm here you are uh married to a British man, so I'm definitely not uh going back to France. But you know, I just I I sort of was on my quest. I'll talk about I'll talk about it later because it's one of the theme of the book. Um, you know, got the degree, ended up in the pharmaceutical industry a little bit by chance, but I stayed there because it resonated with my values, you know, making people feel better, live longer. That was that was important to me what I did. And uh I climbed the ladder. You know, I just was in this big corporate industry where and I and I felt good about it. You know, I felt good, it was rewarding, this sort of feeling of you know, you work hard and you get promoted and you kind of earn more. There was a real sense.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

There's almost a logic to it as well, isn't it? Appeal to the logic side of you, it's a logical progression. Yeah, if you do this, this will happen to you.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yeah, yes, yes. We're very, very conditioned like this, and the brain likes this. It's this feeling of like I know what the next step is, and I'm just doing this, and and then you do it and you get rewarded. It's like a bit like a game of life, you know, it feels exciting. Um, and as everybody, you know, there's things happen along the ways, knockbacks. I think my I was made redundant in 2010. That was a big blow to kind of feel like, oh, hang on, that's not I just that wasn't on the plan, but that spurred me on to say, you know what, I'm gonna show them, I'm gonna go for a bigger job, and and just I kept going. So, you know, that worked for a while, this sort of feeling of rewarding, and then the call for wanting to settle down, and motherhood came. So it was like, okay, you know, maybe my career isn't as important, I want stability. Um, so that longing, that discontent of wanting a child, which didn't come easy, so there was a lot of um yeah, another set of sort of longings there. But we did, you know, we did um I fell pregnant, I had my daughter, which was a big, big life change. That really I think was the beginning of I don't know if I can put words to it, but um, and I know you know, not many, not everybody has children, so you know, I obviously speak of a very specific experience to me of really yeah, kind of uncovering it's like a mirror, you know, all the things that weren't I didn't feel good about, you know, this pressure to be a you know a perfect mother and just to want to do everything really spurred me on to want to do better, and and I think that's why I dedicate the book to my daughter because she really has been it was like a mirror, you know. There was things I I would do or how I was reacting that were reminiscing of my childhood, and I thought I don't want I don't want to be like this. Uh so it was both a pressure and a blessing in a way.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

I love how you referred to your book as your legacy to your daughter as well, really.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

That was the initial the initial spur was was really for her. I just I and I and I'm happy, I'm sure we'll get into this about what why I came to that. Um, yeah, you know, then there was a longing for a second child which didn't happen, and and that you know, as I was approaching 40, and that's really when it started, this sort of feeling of okay, my daughter was I think about seven, and you know, she didn't need me as much. There was this feeling, okay, what's my purpose now? What's next? And this, so the second child didn't happen, and I knew we wouldn't keep trying for IVF, so uh you know, I just knew it wouldn't happen. So I had to grieve that.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

But then there was the work, it was like, okay, do I carry on with a career? Do I go to the next step? Do I and and there was a part of me that was weary, maybe is the best way I could describe it. You know, this feeling of like, do I want to, is this really that important to me? Do I want to do that? What's next? And I just had this growing discontent that just kept growing for no apparent reason. And I think that's the most important because sometimes we can pin it on things, you know, it's our husband. And you know, I did try and pin it on him. I did try and pin it on, you know, it's my husband, it's this, it's my daughter, it's like I said in the intro, it's just some some just something's not right. Yeah, something right. And you know, I had the husband, I had the child, I had the good job, you know, I had a great boss, a good team, I had the big house, you know, every it's almost you know, I've been through that list, yeah, on paper. I'd been through the list and I ticked everything. And it's like an itch. The best way I can describe it is like this itch that you just can't quite scratch. It just keeps coming back, and you can't quite get to it. And you get a little bit of relief when you do something, but then it just keeps coming back. And to the point where I just felt, you know, this growing, yeah. I mean, anxiety. I would wake up in the morning with this heavy weight on my chest, you know, I almost felt like I can't quite breathe. You know, it's like I'm restricting in some way. I'm just trying to gasp for breath and you know, dreading the day ahead, just this longing for freedom from something else, from something more, but something I couldn't quite express. Or when I, you know, I tried to say to my husband or other people that they just didn't get it, they didn't understand me, which kind of made it worse because I don't know, Adon, if you've had that, there's this feeling am I going mad?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Absolutely, you know, is that I ask me too much as well. Yes, yeah. Who who am I to be thinking I I want something different? Everyone else is conforming, everyone else is perfectly happy.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

What's wrong with me? Why is it wrong with me? Yeah, absolutely. What's wrong with me? But it's you know, it's like this physical feeling of oppression of like I just want more life, more passion, you know. I I can't be satisfied with just this, you know, getting up in the morning, going to work and this routine. So real, you know, until until um it became quite unbearable. And there was a series of events, so I went for a uh kind of a promo, it wasn't a promotion, but it was a bigger job. So I thought, okay, never mind, I'll go for it. It will make this feeling go away. And it just made it worse because I was reaching out of my comfort zone, so the self-doubt was was super heightened, and I just yeah, was crippled by imposter syndrome. And then meanwhile, in the same year, both my mum and my sister were diagnosed with with cancer within six months of each other, so it was suddenly this feeling of like, oh my god, you know, my career, you know, meetings where you're discussing targets, objectives. I just couldn't give a damn, to be honest. It was just this, yeah, yeah. And it felt almost like I was like withdrawing from my life, you know, the sort of stuff that I had been engaged with before and thought was important just felt really meaningless. And I and I remember thinking, you know, it's looking at the trees and thinking, you know, this is this is what matters, you know, life.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

You almost feel like a spectator, don't you? You kind of almost removed from the situation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

That's that work, that's spot on, actually, that feeling, yes. A bit like you're just behind a screen observing your own life and thinking, what what the hell does that mean? Um so I nearly resigned. Um, I had you know, one day after a meeting that didn't go well, I really just couldn't hold in it anymore. And I had the conversation conversation with my husband because I needed his well, I needed his support to say, you know, if I resigned, would you would you support me financially? You know, it's just felt like this big uh what do I do? And um, you know, it was scary for him too to sort of feel why would you just resign without having anything else? And I said, I just can't keep going. I can't I don't know what I want, but I just know it's not this, and I I can't, I just need something else. So he said yes, and I emailed my boss saying, you know, I can't I can't keep doing this job. And what was I mean? She was an amazing boss, just she's still in my life. I love her to bits. And she said, look, if you want to resign, you can. And I remember feeling this huge sense of relief actually, because I'd been I'd felt low loyal, you know, I was carrying on out of out of a sense of guilt, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, guilt. So that put a huge relief, you know, took something off my shoulder. And then she said, if you want to do the job, you can. So, you know, she was she kept giving me this feedback, you're doing great. I just couldn't feel it. Um, and then she said, Well, how about coaching? You know, we have a coaching program inside the company. Would you like a coach to help you figure things out? And I was so skeptical. I was, you know, this idea of someone helping you find the answers within you. I was very much, you know, this independent, I can figure it all out. If I have the answers, I would have found them, you know, very absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah, if I can't do it, how on earth is someone who doesn't know me going to be able to help?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah, absolutely. You know, the full, the full, yeah, full-on uh warrior s or or whatever archetype you want I associate with that. And um it was super humbling because I'd never I thought I was very self-reflective because I would think a lot, but it was so different. So I would analyze and spend lots of time in my head thinking about things, but the self-reflection of a coach asking you questions that you you wouldn't even ask yourself because you have a blind spot was massive. And I realized, you know, I would I would say I just want freedom. She asked me questions like why, you know, why does it matter? You know, questions that I never asked myself, and you know, it didn't happen overnight. That was that's really what I want to emphasize as well. You know, there is no magic bullet, and I didn't transform overnight, but it was the first turning point of all okay, there's something there, and starting to explore well, what could I do? What little steps, and over I think at least two years initially, and and I would say the last seven years, of taking little steps to explore well, what would I love? You know, what would give me joy? Um, so I went part-time, I went back to study um something online initially about mental health awareness that made me think actually, I enjoy this, I enjoy learning, and I can do it. And then, long story short, I had a coaching training in in my company, and I was interested in this coaching business. I thought I like that. And I discovered, and she said, You want to look at psychosynthesis. So I discovered this thing that I'd never heard of called psychosynthesis, which is a psycho-spiritual psychology. So part of me was very skeptical, thinking, that's that sounds a bit woo. But everything that we're describing was all about this calling for more, this idea that there's an inherent call for wholeness in us, that we're more than our body, our mind, and our thoughts, and that you know, spirit kind of calls us forward a little bit like you know, the tree wants to become more of a tree and keep growing. It's the same as human being, and all this discontent, this feeling of loss of meaning is is literally just your soul calling to you, asking, you know, calling you to just become more of yourself. And so I just um studied an MA in psychosynthesis for three years, um, and had a completely transformed my outlook on life, um and which I'm I'll I'll talk a lot about in the book. The book is really everything I've learned. Um and four years ago left my corporate um role and um yeah, set up my own business as a coach. And again, you know, I thought this was it, but my soul, whatever you want to call it, you know, just the nudges that something kept nudging me, you know, there's something you need you need to write, you need to tell your story.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Like initially, your your studies was was guided by your love for asking questions, but almost now that the new path that you took, it's again asking questions, but finding answers in a way that you've never even occurred to you or never even dreamt, just such a opened your eyes and your mind in such a different way.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Absolutely. When I look back, because you might, you know, on the on the outside, you might think, oh my god, that's such a U-turn from sort of being working in pharmaceuticals to becoming a coach. And actually, from I look at it and I think, absolutely not, it's a continuation. It's a thread. There's still this feeling, yeah, there's a thread, you know, this curiosity of asking questions. And I could see it straight up, yeah. So, yes, finding answers in in I think that's the biggest difference is also being open to the questions and not having the answers. So I think that's been the major turning point is the humility of saying, yeah, I actually I don't have to have the answers, and I don't have to have the whole path figured out. I can just be open to where what where life wants to take me and just keep taking the steps. You know, you have to show up. You can't just sit and fantasize or or visualize or anything, you have to show up.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

But um I'm very much with you on that. I think, yeah, manifesting and visualizing are fantastic, fantastic tools, but you've got to actually take the steps, as you say. You've got to take the action. It ain't gonna come, it ain't gonna magically appear for you. Well, what I'd love to do, obviously, we've alluded to the book and the wonderful title, and I'd like to hear more about that. And obviously, I I've promised listeners you're going to be sharing your insights. Would it make sense for us kind of to weave them together as as you talk through how your book came about and who this queen is? Is she within all of us? I'm not, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put words in your mouth. Over to you. So the queen, the queen.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, I love what something you said at the very beginning about um lesson learned rather than top tips, because sometimes you know, I I I find some resistance sometimes of saying, you know, oh, tell me the top tips or how can I change my life in three steps? And part of me is thinking, okay, yes, I can give you what I've learned, but it's not it's not an easy fix.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

There is no as you say everyone, we're all different. We're all different, ladies and gents, aren't we? We're all different. So what will work for one won't necessarily work for the other. But it's about find and adapting, isn't it? And curiosity. If it doesn't work, trying something else.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I love that. I love that word curiosity. So, yeah, so I love this idea of lesson learned, and that's pretty much what I've tried to do in the book, you know, to kind of gather everything that I've learned over these last seven years and put it down. But the you know, the way it came about, so I'm trying to think now is 2023, September. So almost two and a half, well, more than two and a half years ago now. And at the time I had left my corporate business and I was full on, full crest mode, you know, I'm setting up this coaching business, showing up on social media, doing all of that, you know, trying to get so in a way, pretty much doing the same thing that I was doing before, you know, trying to find satisfaction outside. You know, I'll be happy when, you know, I'll be happy when I get the child, I'll be happy when I get married, I'll be happy. So here was I, you know, thinking, oh, I found my calling. This really feels like it's environment.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, I'm sorted now.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah, I'm sorted, expecting kind of you know, the the path ahead to open up, litter butt angels singing, you know, like it will all be easy. Um, yes, it wasn't. And there was a a lot of of grafting and and and pushing push energy, you know, me wanting to make things happen. And it wasn't really happening. You know, it was happening a little bit, but not. I found myself in the same loop of of trying to make things happen, not quite burning out. I mean, I didn't quite burn out, but then that feeling of despair that comes in and the self-criticism. So in the book, I talk about the reason it's called the Sleeping Queen, is it's using the metaphor of the sleeping beauty as a kind of as a map to to the to the life, and particularly the life of women, you know, may not all women will resonate with this story, um, but it's the journey through life. And the idea of fairy tales is actually they are maps for your inner world. So all the characters of your story are actually like archetypal characters in your life, so the prince, you Know that goes out and tries to conquer the world on the quest, the princess who's has to be locked into a tower protected, and the raging witch who's cursing her and and um berating her. So, in a way, those those threesome, I found myself trapped in this again. You know, I was I was the prince trying to make things happen, and then my princess would just go, oh, it's not working, you know, feeling victimized and trapped, and then the rage inside of thinking, you know, I just I just want this to work and why isn't it working? And so I was in that, and then one morning, um, yeah, late September, I woke up and there was a massive lump in my left breast. I was laying on my side and I looked down and it it was like the size of a quail egg, really big. And I was thinking, oh my god, it just how could I have suddenly you know it felt like this was in there yesterday kind of thing, you know, how could I have missed this? And obviously, my my sister had been had gone through breast cancer at that point, you know, that both my mum and sister survived. But I you know, I was thinking, okay, what's what's that about? And uh these things don't happen overnight. So there was a part of me that was very serene and thought, no, I I'm sure it's nothing, you know, uh, I'm not worried, you know, I have this feeling of calm. But I would journal every morning, and you know, the questions come, you know, well, what if what if it's this is not nothing? What if it's cancer? What if you know you're gonna have to go and I, you know, I knew what would happen next, you know, chemo and ranger therapy and surgery and all that. What if you're about to embark on a on a big um healing journey? And suddenly there was this question of like, oh, okay, what if I don't have as much time as I think I have?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Uh here I was trying to live my purpose, always living for the future. Um, what would you do with your time? And at that time I thought, more of the same. Because I was, you know, I'd found my calling, I was, I thought I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, but I'm aligned. So I was expecting the answer to come back, you know, more of the same. And it wasn't that. When I really asked, what would I really want to do with my time if I only had a year to live? The answer was, yeah, give up the coaching, give up the trying to build a business. The answer was my daughter, I want to spend time with her. You know, she was two and a half years ago, she's 14 now, so yeah, she would have been 12, you know, 11 or 12. Um, and it was like, I want to spend every minute that I have with her, and not just with her, but live a trace of me beyond to kind of guide her through puberty, through adulthood. And you know, the only way to live a trace beyond, you know, beyond you being physically there is to write. So that's how it started. So I made myself the promise I will write every day, 300 words till for the next three months. And that's how it started. I didn't know it was a book really when I first started writing.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

I just did what I could, which was to almost like a love letter to your daughter, so that you're sharing your thoughts and motivations and yeah, thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

So I would literally sit down at the computer and think, okay, what do I want to write about today? And there would usually be a word drop into my awareness. So, you know, a word would pop in like courage or grief or discipline or whatever, and and I would just ponder about it, wonder you know, write about it. And then soon, you know, soon I started to think about okay, maybe there's a book there. And the sleeping beauty is something that already came to me when I was studying for May MA. So this comes more from Jungian therapy. If there's any listeners who are familiar with psychology, they'll they'll might know more about Young than Assa Jolie, who uh founded psychosynthesis. But they were there were peers, you know, they lived at the same time, they were maybe not friends, but they were colleagues. And Young Young was around this idea of fairy tales, you know, this the psychology of fairy tales. And uh, I really like this. So we'd already worked a lot with that, and this idea that stories that you're attracted to, or even stories you're resistant to usually offer clues to your development, you know, something you're resisting. And for me, the story of Sleeping Beauty had already always sort of fascinated me. Um, you know, fascinated and also I had some resistance to it. And in my thesis, I'd already had um written about the wounded feminine. So this idea that actually we're both the princess and the witch. You know, I suddenly found, oh my god, I am the witch, you know, internally. I had this raging witch inside me that just wanted to control and feel vengeful and just hurt others because of the harm that had been done to her, kind of thing. And I also had the princess who just felt like the word was just too much and too scary and just um needed to be protected. So I started to become aware of those different parts of me, and I felt like the fairy tale was a beautiful metaphor for the journey of the feminine psyche of sort of having to survive in a in a masculine world or a patriarchal world rather than where we actually have to put our very tender, soft feminine side and hide her and just show up in the world as you know the the prince, you know, the the female version of the prince, but you know, questing and being competent and going out there and achieving wearing that mask, yeah. Everything's fine, yeah. Everything's fine, you know, I'm I'm competent. And and meanwhile, you know, whether the witch is express, you know, often sometimes you see very competent women who people call witches because they're powerful and they're they're awesome but scary, or whether for me the witch was more an inner voice of um you know self-criticism or yeah, you're inner critic, absolutely, yeah. Inner critic, and also um I was I was a very different person at work and at home as well. So I think at home probably my husband saw the witch more. It's very controlling and very, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Um yeah. So in terms of obviously as a reader picking it up, will they identify, do you think, with the is it a journey that take it takes them through in terms of if we're looking to say awaken our sleeping queen and overcome that feeling of particularly in midlife, being lost, thinking who the blinking heck is this woman? She's not, I don't recognise her. I don't want to go back to who I was before, but I don't know where I'm going now. I I just don't know. I'm feeling lost, I'm feeling dissatisfied.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

I mean, journey is a is a good word. So I I know it's an overused word. I know, but it's I know it's it is a good one. Um and actually, so book that I discovered through my studies that really guided me and and guided the sheep of the book as well, is called The Heroine's Journey. So many people have heard of The Hero's Journey, which was um coined by Joseph Campbell, I think, in the 19 maybe 40s or something. And it is, you know, you if you if you've seen films like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, or it's it is that you know, the hero leaves home, goes on a quest, conquers some dragons, monsters, ogres, eventually finds that the you know the monsters are within. So, like, I don't know if you're a fan of Star Wars, but like Luke Skywalker and his father, or so it has to conquer something and eventually reclaims some sort of treasure, you know, knowledge about himself or strengths or something he didn't know he had, and then comes back home in a way to become this, you know, to tell the story and tell the tale and bring the learning back to his community. So it's very much of an outward journey, and many women uh identify with that. I mean, I identify with that too. But the Heron's journey, in a way, so this was written by a woman called Maureen Murdoch, who studied with Campbell and who asked the questions, well, what about the women? And Campbell replied, Well, women don't need to make the journey, they're already there, they're they're in the place that the men are trying to get to. And she found this quite unsatisfying as an answer and quite infuriating. This idea that you just have to wait for the for the hero to go and come home and just like knit or like to gather it. Yes, that's it. Know your place, yeah. Yeah, like or like Penelope in the story of Ulysses, who sort of weaves the tapestry and unweaves it.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Um, and you know, many modern women would not be satisfied with this idea of just being the princess that's waiting to be rescued. Um, so we we ourselves set off on that quest on that very hero, you know, heroic journey on the following the masculine model of going out there and achieving and conquering. So whether it's the degree or the career or you know, whatever it represents. But she identifies this point and she calls it the point of spiritual aridity. And that's so resonated with me, even that word aridity, this feeling of dryness, of almost this we've lost something and we're part and we're longing for something real that that we can't name. That's the the midlife to me, that is the midlife crisis, and particularly the the feminine midlife crisis, the longing to reconnect with the feminine, and it's the it's the archetypal feminine, so it may be a longing to reconnect with other women, you know, feel females, um, but it could be a more spiritual, so like connecting with the earth, you know, gardening, putting your hand in the dirt, you know, doing pottery, you know, something really earthy is also the more archetypal feminine. And I well, I remember reading that book, and I I was feeling this, you know, it's like you feel it in your bones, everything that language was really resonating with me. And then the second half of the journey is really a journey inwards, so it's really going in, and she calls it the descent of the goddess, and and reclaiming this uh the language she uses is divine feminine. That's what I use in the book as well. So, and what I would say is if you've got any resistance to that language, you know, bear with me because I did, I did have resistance to this idea of the divine and spirituality. Um, but it doesn't have to be um a doctrine, it's really this idea that the divine feminine, you know, for millennia really has been kind of put down. So if you think as women, the the roles that are accepted for us are either you know, virgin, the virgin Mary, or the or Eve, you know, Eve whose curiosity led to the downfall of men.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

It's like you know, women are yeah, blame her, but the power, you know, the the women, the power for women has been vilified through this archetype of the witch. You know, powerful woman is either a dragon or witch, you know, it's just it's it's exactly it's been devil wears prod a miranda that yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

If if you're gonna be powerful, you're you're bad with it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yeah, exactly. So it's been very vilified. So as women, we tend to repress that, you know, our anger, our our um our power, and we just sort of and and you know, you can't get rid of it, so it comes out to me. It was coming out, it was like leaking out, you know, this anger because it just felt bad. I felt like a bad person. And the heroin's journey, which is really about a healing, so reconnecting the femme with the feminine, you know, realizing that there's a part of us that we've left behind in order to survive, yeah, that we need to to climb back and heal. So the book is really in two halves. I think the first half is more autobiographical, you know, around childhood and and teenage, you know, how we um how we end up locked. So it talks about the the princess, the prince, the tower, you know, how what the tower represents.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

So how you've become to be within the tower, yeah. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

I don't know if you've read a book called Untamed by uh Glenn and Doyle, because it's uh it's that's another book about you know how we get caged and then how we free ourselves. So in a way, the first book is about how we build our tower, and you know, it's not all negative. We need we need it to survive in the world.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

We need an armor, we need well, like our inner critic, by and large, she's trying to protect us. That that's her main reason for being, but it's how we interpret it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Yeah, so we need you know, the first part of life, we need all of these to go out, to leave our parents' home, to find our place in the world, you know, all of these are needed, but there comes a point, and usually it's around midlife. And to me, midlife is you know anything from 35 to 65, probably is very broad.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Absolutely, no, absolutely. That but it's that second phase, isn't it? Really, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah, and it is that second phase when you have ticked all the boxes of survival. So, in a way, it's like you know, I've done my job, I've survived, I've made my place. Now what? Yeah, so the discontent that we feel is not something going wrong, it's actually something going right.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

It's it's we I say we we've run out of signposts, yeah. We've followed them all, and we're like, yeah, as you say, now what? Now what? And sometimes that now what can be so overwhelming, or we can be like, I just don't know, I just don't know anymore. I've not thought for myself for so long. I've been thinking for everyone and everything else. That now, I mean, I'm getting emotional just thinking about that kind of overwhelming, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

I don't know. It's the void. There's a there is a little subchapter in the book called Now What, exactly describing exactly that feeling almost like okay, now what? And that sense of void, and just sort of like and and even awakening. So this idea that you know awakening sounds lovely, doesn't it? Sounds like you just open your eyes and flutter open, and you know, there's pink bet sheets, and it's just all lovely. My experience was again, I'm gonna do another film reference. I'm sorry if I'm um losing some audience, but I'm a bit of a geek of Matrix when uh when Neo gets unplugged from the Matrix and realizes that he's actually um in this dystopian world and and it just gets covered in good and goo and shivering, and it's not pretty. And that's and there is a bit of that feeling sometimes when you drop the mask and you think actually that's not the life I want. No, it's it's not it's not you know all roses and butterflies.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

It's often pretty you have to have the mess though. You've got to have you've got to go through the hot mess of not knowing. I mean, again, when we were just saying that phrase now what? I mean, to me, it really does. I still use that phrase, but now it's now what? Now what? And I've completely shifted that this almost despairing feeling of wanting to pull your hair out to the excitement, the curiosity of right, right, bring it on now, now what I'm rubbing my hands, listeners. I look a bit like a witch, but in a good way. I'm I'm embracing her. I'm like, yeah, come on then.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

I know, like I can see your whole face changing, your smile coming, ooh, now what? Absolutely. But when you first when you first go through it, it is it is terrifying because it's the calling to drop the armor. Uh, I mean, Brenny Brown, I'm I'm sure many of your listeners will know her, but she's got uh it's an article actually called The Midlife Unraveling, and it's brilliant saying this is when your soul brings you close and you know grabs you by the shoulder and saying, you know, the armor, what's what's kept you safe until now, you know, what's brought you here is now restricting you. And that's this idea of the tower is protecting, but eventually it's stopping you from actually connecting. To me, that's what it felt. I felt like it was both protecting me. You know, you can imagine a tower with with the thorns on the outside, but also desperately keeping me from that, you know, the part of me that wanted to connect, that wanted to love, that wanted to be in the world. It's almost like this feeling that I can't reach inside because there's this barbed wire around my heart that's keeping it safe, and I can't get through it. We need a sword. Yes, you need you need more. Yeah, it's you know, it's it's terrifying to drop the armor, but it is, you know, it's it's necessary if you want to live a full life. If you see, I mean, I've just seen your face literally lit up as you say, you know, now what? And I feel the same. Now I'm like, bring on, bring on the adventure, bring on, you know, the what's next.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

But it's amazing how the same two words can completely, as we as we metamorphosize, the same the feeling that those two words conjure up can completely change, can't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

But you to answer, I mean, your earlier question was about almost how do we, you know, how do we do it, how so the the first half is more autobiographical to really understand because the reality is you can't change anything you're unaware of. So the first part of the journey and and my journey was it's literally kind of just digging through the dirt and going underground and saying, okay, what's under there? You know, what's been buried there? And it is, you know, it can be scary, can be painful. Uh, you know, I would always say, you know, get a coach, get a therapist if you need one, or you know, do get support around you. But it is about digging, saying, you know, what's under there? Because once once it's conscious, it's painful because you're making something conscious. But the beauty of it is then you can make a different choice. So that's really there's no there's no way around it, as whatever the children's book, you know, you you can't you can't go under it, you can't go around it. Around it, you've got to go through it. Yeah, exactly. Going on a bare hand. And that's the first step to really start to think what's going on in me. So in the book, I use those archetypes as a guide. I know many people resonate with with those. You may have others, but it's to start to become aware of your different parts. I mean, and even if um parts are too much. Sorry, I'm I'm talking about parts in psychosynthesis, we call them subpersonalities, but I mean, I think most people are aware that we are, we do have different parts. You know, we you're one way at work, you're one way at home, you might be one way with your parents. You know, you know instinctively that there's different parts of you. Um, some parts you express, you're very happy to show the world, some parts are completely hidden and they're inside, and you would you would die rather than show them to anyone because they bring you shame. So that's that's really the world of excavation. So you know, think of Indiana Jones, things that you're going on some sort of excavating archaeological mission, but that's what it's about to make things conscious. If that's too much, you know, maybe it's it's at least feelings, you know, start to become aware of what's going on in your inner world, you know, what what thoughts, what what thoughts are you telling yourself? What are you feeling? What is your body telling you? To start to bring awareness to what's going on inside. Um, and then the second part of the book is is really more about uh the how. I mean, my book is not a how-to book, even though it does say how-to opening how to open it.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

We like a how-to, but a how-to doesn't necessarily have to be a how-to. As you say, it's not a it's not a recipe for making a cake. Not everything is the same for everyone, but it's more about, as you say, how you interpret it. So you're sharing your insights. So, yes, yeah, the how-to that isn't a how-to.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

It is well, it's a it's a question. So each each chapter, you know, and subsection has questions. So it's really around, you know, prompting, asking the questions. I mean, we started our conversations talking about the importance of asking questions. So, you know, it's it's it's bringing awareness to things and starting to reflect, you know, yeah, what are what are the patterns? You know, what are my mindsets? You know, are they serving me? What are the messages that I absorbed as a child? You know, how much is my inner prince ruling my life and and forcing me to go to the next achievement? Or do I have some choice around it? Uh, you know, talking about the witch, there's a lot around you know, your relationship with anger. What is your relationship with anger? You know, do you even have one? Do you just I hear so many women saying, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not an angry person. You know, anger is a is a primary emotion, it's needed, but often we depressed.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Well, going through, I mean, obviously, I'm not medically trained, but the hormonal shifts that we go through at this time can trigger or or or shine the light on not necessarily anger, but being niggled, being annoyed, being all these things that we hadn't really felt perhaps before. And now we're thinking, why? Why is my fuse so short now?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Absolutely. I love it because you said it's not it's not triggered, it's almost like shining the light. So it's it's always been there, it's just been hidden under things. So either repress, uh, I I read an article, unfortunately, I can't remember the reference, about the hormone or the fact that as we go through perimenopause, you know, we have less of the progesterone and estrogen, the kind of motherly hormones, feminine hormones, we have more testosterone. So actually, biologically, we care less. And the anger that I think potentially was already there just is more obvious. So we we have less cushioning, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Well, it seems to be almost a battle cry, you know, giving less Fs, doesn't it? You know, and that and it's that in itself can be not dangerous, but it can really make you stop and think, do I really? And you know, why am I doing this? And oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

So I think in terms of the the how to, or the you know, the main lessons for me were um were that, you know, really accepting anger as a primary life-giving emotion. I know that might be shocking to many, but it actually is, you know, yes, it can be destructive if you let it, but it can be used as fuel for creativity and it is a life, it's an impulse for life. Um, feelings in general, you know, being being kind to myself or my feelings. So moving away from just being in my own head and thinking that my thoughts and my intellect was all there was, um, reconnecting to my body and actually realizing that my body has wisdom and listening to it. So the lump that I talked about, that was my questioning. You know, okay, this has come here for a reason. What is what is it trying to tell me? You know, what's the message behind? You know, I was. I first started my psychosynthesis training. I was just in my head the whole time. And I remember my my therapist or my coach saying, you know, well, how how does it feel in your body? And I thought, What's hey? What's so what happened? No one asked me that question. Yeah, what happened with the lump? Can I ask? So, yeah, a few weeks later I had a test, it was a scan, and it was a cyst. So it's just, you know, uh, and I remember the and actually I do talk about it in the book that the the whatever you call it, the scan, the the the lady, the nurse saying, Oh, you know, we um, you know, it's just a cyst, so you know, we could drain it for you. And I in the past I probably would have just gone along with whatever they were saying, and I and I thought, okay, um, and I said, Well, will it drain itself? She said, No, probably not, you know, it'll it'll be inflamed and um you'll just have to come back anyway. And I was like, Well, hang on a minute, what do you mean by draining? And you know, she meant putting a handle in it and drawing it, and I was thinking, oh, I don't like the idea of that, and so I actually I said, you know what? No, thank you. Yeah, because my body can heal itself, and I'm just gonna trust my body. And um, you know, I yeah, the sister's still there, but it's not worse, and it's not you know painful, and it's not and you know what it is, and to me, I and I know what it is, and it was almost when I was writing, it was sort of a message saying, you know what, that's it's reminding me, you know, you you know, time's time's limited. We all have you know, we all have a birth date and an end date, and you've you've got to, you know, you can't just live in wishful thinking about what you may do one day, you've got to live in the now. So to me, I take it as a I love that, as a beautiful reminder of that. So yeah, I don't I don't want to get rid of it. And in a way, that's that's kind of the whole message of the book that a lot of the time, whatever it is, whether it's feelings, whether it's parts, you know, things that bring us shame, we try to get rid of them, you know, like it we get we're angry that we're angry. Yeah, we get annoyed. I'm annoyed that I'm angry, I'm sad that I'm sad, and actually, we we try and get rid of what is just arising out of uh our interaction through life. You know, emotions are information, that's all they are.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

They're yeah. Why am I feeling like this? Not don't try and stifle it, try and say, okay, I accept it. This is oh, I love this.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Absolutely, you know, emotions. I mean, again, sorry, I'm a geek. The scientists are me knowing. Geek away. Energy, it's energy moving through us. If we allow it to move, then it can inform us, it can tell us about what's important, you know, boundary being crossed, something that we care about that is not there anymore, you know, it it can guide us. So, but a lot of the time we try and get rid of all of these things when really or we just bottle it up completely, don't we?

SPEAKER_02 46:49

As well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Yeah, we stop it from moving. So, um, if we if we I mean, there is the the the one bit of self-help in a way is is in the the the appendix and it's five steps, and it's first, you know, acknowledge, recognize. So that's why I'm saying, you know, however you do it, whether it's through inner questioning, whether I do a lot of journaling, that's my way, but just really wondering what's going on for me in this moment, how am I feeling? What do I feel in my body? What am I thinking? Um, to bring awareness, but that that is a huge step in itself. I'm making it sound like it's easy. Really, I mean it took me years because I was so in my head all the time and just worried about what's going on outside. But the first thing, bring bring awareness. The second thing um is accept it, it's there, don't push it away, make space for it. And I'll I've I'll never cease to be amazed at how you know I've I've been a I've coached people, I've obviously I've had a I've had coaching myself of just this simple sentence, you know, I just feel angry or I'm confused, or can you make space for it? Can you allow it? And you're like, oh and then when you do, you're like, oh, I suddenly feel a little bit of ease of it's okay. And then the third step is curiosity or compassion and inquiry, you know, what what is that about? Well, yeah, what is the anger about? What am I angry about? You know, sometimes you'll find actually I'm really sad. There's something else behind, or sometimes, you know, there's we can misinterpret emotions as well, can't we?

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Sometimes we're not, you know, we we think it's one thing, and actually, when we actually pause and sit with it, we realize no, we're not feeling that, we're actually feeling something different. Something else, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

So, you know, curious. And in in in the beauty of psychosynthesis, and there are there are other things that talk about set personality, internal family system is another one. Um, but I like it because to me, just I it ignites my imagination. I find it fun, you know, to really think about characters, you know. Well, if you could give it a voice or a name or character, you know, is it my inner prince? I just it helps bring a bit of distance between you and the experience. You know, suddenly it's not, you know, I'm furious or I'm rageful. It's like, oh, what is my inner witch feeling? Yeah, you know, and you can some people are more visual, some people don't need visual, but suddenly you think, okay, it's not all of me anymore, it's a part of me. I can observe it. And then it's eventually it's almost um, you know, asking questions. You know, what do you need? What are you so angry about? So having an inner dialogue with different parts of you helps you sort of find compassion between because they're all there to serve you. I mean, you've said it, the inner critic, it's it's there for a reason, it's there to protect you, it's fulfilling a function. It's just for a moment, it's it's taken hold of the bus. So the wonderful analogy is like, you know, you imagine that you're driving a bus and all your sub personality, you know, you may have the I've got images of speed now.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

I've got another Keanu for the right.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Well, you may have that. Yeah, you may have the one who's like, Oh, come on, you know, I need to go, you know, the rageful driver, or you may have the naughty kid, or the I don't know, the nerdy teacher, you know, can imagine a bus full of those different parts, and you know, most of the time uh in our life, they just take turns in driving the bus, or maybe there's one that's actually even driving the bus the whole time, maybe Keanu Reeves trying to not slow down. Yeah, that's actually a beautiful analogy. Whereas really, if you can observe all these parts, and that really where the queen is to me, it's it's the inner observer, it's the the queen of your own realm. It's when you can sit and see, you know, I'm I'm in my power in my centre, and actually I can observe all my different um whatever you want to call it. I don't like the word my subjects, my loyal subjects, my disciples, whatever, and really see, you know, and you can I can see your face changing, even when I say the word, you know, yeah, just relax.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Well, I'm thinking as well, obviously, Queen wearing her beautiful crown, but what we also need as well is our crown straightness as well. So the women around us in our we mentioned friendships earlier, and I think as well, it's so important to acknowledge and find our tribe to help straighten each other's crowns because the crown isn't going to be straight all the time, is it? I think that's something else to remember.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Absolutely, and sometimes we um yeah, sometimes you know it's it's it's hard to always be in the queen, you know, sometimes we forget. But when you're in that moment is sort of seeing, you know, blessing all the different parts of your inner world, you know, the the the innocent princess who thinks that the whole world is butterflies and roses and belongs to that dream world. And you know, I want to live in that world, thank you very much. Yeah, I want my unicorn, yeah, yeah. And I know that sometimes, yeah, she's not that helpful if I'm trying to build a business or doing something else or actually having a conversation with somebody where I need to put boundaries. You know, that's when maybe the the prince, or actually the witch, you know, the powerful witch is more is more helpful to say, hang on a minute, you know, I'm gonna defend my territory. So it's being able to bring those different archetypes and give them what they need, because they all need something different. Most of them, but what they actually need is to be seen, to be seen by you, to say, you know, I see you, I see what you're doing, and I love you. And when you can say that to parts of yourself that you've repressed for a long time, you they will transform.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

They will transform I love that because we have Jumper at the beginning. I said, you know, it really self-love is right at the core. And that's we've come for we've told our uh we've had our own heroine's journey. Oh, I love this, I love this. Now, obviously, I could talk about the book, but we're gonna share your details in a bit. All your details are on the show notes for our episode, and you have your guest profile on the website. And I will be inviting you in a moment to share with listeners how they can get hold of your book, how they can get in touch with you. But before then, you can't escape, you cannot escape the three questions that I ask each of my fabulous guests. So if you're still sitting, yeah, put my teeth in. If you're still sitting comfortably, first question is what is your midlife anthem?

SPEAKER_00 53:05

That was an easy one. It's Girl on Fire by Alicia Keys. I just love that one.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

It's a bit powerful, isn't it? I won't I won't sing it. Sometimes I do slip into song. I can't help but no, I don't think I can do it justice. No, that is really good.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

But it's just, yeah, whenever I feel doubt, whenever I feel a bit like who am I to, or I just yeah, I just put that, and it's just yeah, I don't know if it's the queen, but it just feels like yeah, fuels me with well, maybe it is the witch, you know, that kind of feeling of fire and just kind of like yeah, I'm just gonna go out there. And it's uh yeah, helps me embrace my my inner witch and my so oh I love that.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

Oh, embrace your inner witch, yes. So does the inner witch, does she come into play at all with your midlife mantra? I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Oh, does she? Oh, maybe that's more I don't know what part that is. It's a it's a cheeky one. It's my midlife mantra is why not?

SPEAKER_02 54:02

Nice, nice, yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

It's such a people go, why? Why not? Yeah, so I like it's a little bit like your nine what earlier and your your face, the face. I wish you could see your face when you said it, the nine what and you know, the now what. You know, so often we I mean me personally, you know, why, why, why does this matter? Why? I was so long in that why questioning everything. And suddenly it's like, why not? Why not? You want to do something, why not try it? Why not? What's the worst that can happen? So maybe it's more of the innocence, you know, the innocence part of me to think actually, you know what? Why not? Why not do it? Why not have fun? Why not try something? Why not fall flat on your face and you know get up again? So um, yeah, I think that's uh very liberating.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

And it ties in as well with the curiosity, doesn't it? Why not? Let's go and explore. Oh yeah, absolutely. So that would also work well for your final question, the title of your autobiography, is it the same?

SPEAKER_00 55:00

I you know what? Because that was a really difficult, difficult one to answer. And I was thinking, maybe why not? Could be and I thought, okay, you know, maybe she'll tell me off for uh having two two answers. My witch would come out. I think it would it would absolutely work. Why not? Uh I've got several alternatives, but the other one that I have is the freedom to be me.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Yeah, yeah. And again, that ties in with awakening the sleeping queen as well, doesn't it? Because that's what it's all about. I asking those questions to help wake her up and then love her, let her come, let her be.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Yeah, and just be more of you. I think you know, we spend so much of our time trying to be someone or trying to be someone else or trying to fit the mold, you know, shape shift ourselves to fit what we think we need to be in order to, you know, be love, succeed, you know, achieve whatever, feel happy. Where actually all that nature, life, whatever wants of you is just to be more of you. You know, the an oak tree does not try and be a willow tree. The oak tree just is more of an oak tree. Now there's no two oak trees the same because they're shaped by their environment, their roots, whatever, but it still knows that I'm just I'm not gonna try and be another tree.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

Um that has actually been, you know, with my own metamorphosis, that was the the most wonderful moment when I thought I don't have to be or try to be anything that I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's I'm just trying, I'm just trying to be me. Exactly. So, you know, yeah, it sounds easier, but I love that title, The Freedom to Be Me, because that's I don't know where life will take me. I don't know what's next, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

I don't know, but it's me to no have a little a little play. Let's go and have a play, yeah. Right, before we embark on the next step of our journey, then let's I say all your details are on the show notes for our episode, and you have your guest profile on the website. But please share with listeners how they can get in touch with you, how they can get hold of your book. Over to you.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

So the the easiest way is I've got Linktree. So I think it's link linktr.ee. And yeah, yeah, link link tree slash uh Natalie Cordell. So and then this is where you'll find always updated links. So you'll find there a link to um my website, a link to where to order the book from, any events that are ongoing. If I'm doing workshops, um book readings or author signings, they'll be on there. And then all of my socials are mostly on LinkedIn. Uh, I dabble a little bit with Instagram as well. And also I've got a blog uh on Substack called Soul Seeds where I share more general lessons learns and musings about about midlife and just my own journey.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

So um fantastic. So let's just go and connect. I say all the links are in the show notes and on the guest profile. And I'd love your feedback on today's episode. So it'd be fabulous if you leave a review, a little thumbs up, maybe, um, subscribe. You know, you know what I'm asking you to do. Um, and you can email or text me via the link in the show notes, too. Um, come and join the Facebook group. Again, the links in the show notes where you'll find the website link with details of how you can work with me one-to-one, or come and join more M-O-R-E exclamation mark, my all-in-one award-winning coaching programme for fabulous females who want to start adding more life to your years. Who doesn't want a bit of that? Thank you for joining me, Natalie. I've loved our conversation. I knew I would, I knew I would. And watch out, obviously, there's going to be the video podcast as well, but it'll come out the same day as the audio podcast. Almost forgot what I was going to say. Thank you for listening. I look forward to you tuning in next week because don't forget Midlife Unlimited has a new episode every Thursday available wherever you get your podcasts. So here's it being fabulous and flourishing together and living Midlife Unlimited. Thanks, Natalie. It's been brilliant. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Bye bye.