Joshua White - Fireside Project Psychedelic Support Line

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Joshua White, founder and executive director of the Fireside Project, a nonprofit creating a revolutionary model of psychedelic support through free, real-time emotional care and integration coaching.

What happens when someone takes too much LSD and needs someone to talk to—right now? What if someone is trying to process an ayahuasca ceremony months later, but feels disconnected or judged in traditional therapy settings? Fireside Project offers a lifeline—through voice, text, and now coaching—for people navigating the psychological highs, lows, and revelations that come with non-ordinary states.

Topics we explore:

• Joshua’s journey from attorney to psychedelic peer support pioneer
• The fusion of festival harm reduction (Zendo Project) and therapeutic models
• The challenges and beauty of being vulnerable on psychedelics
• Why peer support is not about fixing the trip—but honoring it
• Fireside’s efforts to center marginalized voices and create culturally attuned care
• The importance of long-term integration, not just “bad trip” triage
• The launch of Fireside’s certified coaching program: preparation, integration, and affordable access to trained support
• Training 600+ volunteers and building a new generation of psychedelic-informed supporters
• The hard truth about fundraising and outreach in the psychedelic nonprofit space
• How to get involved, support, or train with Fireside

We also discuss the deeper existential questions around psychedelics: Why do humans have the capacity for these experiences in the first place? What does it mean to embrace anxiety, rather than suppress it? And how do we build a post-prohibition world rooted in compassion, not commercialization?

Whether you’re preparing for your first journey, working through a past one, or just curious about what a post-psychedelic-care model could look like, this conversation offers a grounded, humble, and hopeful roadmap.

🔗 Learn more or volunteer: firesideproject.org
📱 Download the Fireside app (iOS & Android): Just two buttons—Call or Text.
💬 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎧 Music by Flintwick

00:12 – Intro & Fireside Project Overview
02:33 – Joshua’s Journey: From Law to Psychedelics
08:37 – The Four Problems in the Psychedelic Field
12:12 – What a Fireside Support Call Is Like
14:08 – Anxiety, Acceptance, and “The Obstacle Is the Path”
17:32 – Who’s on the Other End of the Line?
20:45 – Volunteer Training & Community Structure
22:46 – Fireside’s Harm Reduction Impact
24:56 – Culturally Attuned Support & Identity-Based Care
26:56 – Fireside’s Biggest Challenge: Fundraising
31:04 – The Fireside Coaching Program Explained
32:45 – First-Time Users & Psychedelic Prep
35:17 – The Fireside App for Trippers
38:01 – Final Thoughts, Get Involved

Transcript

0:12

Hey guys, welcome back to Divergent States, the unofficial Psychonaut podcast. I'm Elite, host and founder of the Psychonaut subreddit and back again with Bryan. Hey, how you doing? great. How are you? I'm not bad. You know, I got to keep have somebody here, keep me grounded. So tonight we got Josh White. He's the CEO and founder of the Fireside Project. non-profit organizations pioneering psychedelic care through two main services, a free psychedelic support line and fireside certified psychedelic coaching support line. They provide free confidential emotional support by phone, text or app to people during and after psychedelic experiences. They do coaching programs where they offer scheduled one-on-one video sessions with coaches who support clients through preparation and integration of your psychedelic. experiences, which is a huge part of the, you know, getting everything is integration when you're kind of done. Right. And then founded in 2020 fireside project to supported over 30,000 people while maintaining high standards of care through an extensive practitioner training and clinical supervision. The organization is committed to creating a beloved psychedelic community where people of all identities are welcome working to make psychedelic support services accessible and culturally responsive and safety focused through harm reduction. fireside project has received national media attention with rolling stones, forb, Esquire, Mashable and more. So yeah, today we're here with Josh. he's the fireside projects, founder, lawyer, and peer support activists. And he's a coach on there. So, the music tonight's Flintwick again. I think next week we're going to be, we're going be doing a best of might have somebody on special on, and, you guys don't forget to support us, patreon.com, Divergent States. Yeah, and listen to some music and we'll be back on with Josh. See you soon. Bye! you back and we'll have Joshua White here. Thanks, Josh, for being here. Thank you for inviting me. No problem. So just can you tell us anything about your journey and how you got here and what got you to start the fireside program? Sure. Well, I've been taking psychedelics for about 25 years. And for me, I was always very fortunate to have amazing people around me to support me during and after the experience. And I really started to develop the belief that the support is just really critical, the support beforehand and during and after. And so I was practicing law for many years. and was so kind of taken with the healing potential of my psychedelic experiences that I decided to leave my career as a lawyer to start Fireside Project. I did that about four years ago. And the belief really was that for psychedelics to reach their full healing potential, everyone in the United States and eventually everyone in the world should get free access to support when they're navigating psychedelic experiences. I mean, yeah, that's I was there any kind of like specific moment that you really just kind of brought it together where you're like, this, this is how I want to do it. You know, this is what I want to do. I think there were two moments. One was when I was volunteering for the Zendo project. And I remember supporting someone at Lightning in a Bottle. This was probably 10 years ago. And I remember just being so deeply struck by how profoundly alone and terrified she was when she came into the Zendo tent. And then just by creating a safe, non-judgmental space for her. she ended up having what seemed like an incredibly like transformational and healing experience. And the other was I spent many years volunteering on a support line in San Francisco for parents with young kids. And the mission of that support line is to stop child abuse. And one of the things that made that support line unique was at the end of every incoming call, we would offer a follow-up call. And so I spoke to some of my clients. weekly for in some cases for a few years and I had one client tell me and he was someone who I'd been speaking to weekly for about three years and he said to me I don't know whether I've been given a gift or whether it's been there all along but I feel like I've unwrapped it and I I must have started crying when he said that. And it just really showed me that support lines are so powerful. They're free and they're everywhere and they're accessible to everyone. so Fireside Project is really a fusion of these kind of two loves of mine providing psychedelic support and the role that support lines can play. Yeah, absolutely. I've seen that time and time again, people come into the tents or they're freaking out a little bit. It always helps to have that guide or sitter there to talk about. Is there any of your personal philosophies that really kind of get into what you do there with the Fireside Project? My personal philosophy, let me think. I believe that psychedelics have the potential to create a more loving and interconnected world. And I think for me, fireside is really a key part of how that vision can be brought about. And I think often of... Like why is it that we have the capacity to have psychedelic experiences? know, each part of our being has a very specific evolutionary purpose, like the hair on our face, our fingernails. And so what is the evolutionary purpose? What is the reason why we develop the capacity to have psychedelic experiences? And I think about my own psychedelic experiences. I think they've made me a more loving person. I think they helped me heal from childhood trauma. So I think, I guess my personal philosophy is that we can create a more loving and interconnected world through psychedelics, but that can really only happen if everyone has access to support. Absolutely. I mean, of course, that's I mean, yeah, including the inclusion and just, you know, making sure everyone has that support when it's needed. That's I mean, that's a really super important part of any kind of, you know, and the integration as well, kind of taking these experiences and being able to integrate them into your personal life. So for those that might not know, how would you describe the mission of the fireside project? What? Why a support line specifically. Yeah, so, you know, our mission is to help people minimize the risks of psychedelic experiences in ways such as providing culturally attuned peer support, furthering psychedelic research and helping to train aspiring practitioners. And when I was really thinking about at the start of the pandemic, you know, what type of nonprofit I wanted to create for the psychedelic field. I kind of asked myself, what are the biggest problems that the field is facing? And it really seemed to me like there were four and still are four. One is just a lack of accessible support. Another is a lack of diversity in the psychedelic field, primarily as a result of the war on drugs. The third is a lack of data, really not understanding why psychedelic. work and for whom and under what circumstances and what are the variables. And then the final is just a lack of experiential training for aspiring practitioners, right? The best way to develop your skills providing psychedelic support is to actually provide psychedelic support. And so it seemed to me that a support line could really be an engine that allows us to help solve all four of those problems. And that's really what we've seen over the last three and half years that the support line has been operating. So like, so could you walk me through like say what a normal call if I were out and I taking a little too much, had a little bit too much too fast, how would it go? mean, what would that be like? Sure. Well, first, let me just say that our support line supports people who are both integrating past experiences as well as in the midst of an experience. so obviously an integration call is going to be very different from a tripping call. But for tripping calls, really as with integration calls, the... The goal is to just meet people where they're at and to create a really safe and non-judgmental space for them to experience whatever comes up. So we like to say that all emotions, all feelings are okay. So often a call when someone is in a really activated, tripping state, you know, can start with something like, wow, you know, I hear you, I hear how scared you are, I hear how lonely you feel, and I'm happy to be here with you. as long as you like. So that initial point of connection is so powerful. And then often what can happen next is, especially if someone is newer to psychedelics, they think that like something is wrong with their experience. Like they may be like, is it normal to, or like I'm seeing all these, you know, these shapes and colors. I feel like I'm gonna go insane. I feel like this is never gonna end. And just to be able to say like, yeah, that sounds really scary and also, that's totally normal for where you are in your journey. I heard you say that you took two hits of acid a couple of hours ago. And so, yeah, you're really like approaching the peak of your experience and it's gonna end and I'm happy to stay with you as long as you'd like. So often that's kind of the initial piece of it. We don't deescalate people. Right? Because I think de-escalation is a consequence of creating a non-judgmental and safe space. But there are many consequences. One might be that the person just feels more grounded and open and more curious about their experience. The reason I don't like the term de-escalation is because it sort of implies that like being in one state is bad and that we want to get someone to a different state, which is good. But in fact, You know, the difficulty that arises during a psychedelic experience can actually be the most fruitful opportunity to learn about yourself. And one of the kind of like phrases that I really like, it's not my own, but you the obstacle is the path, right? Like the difficulty isn't getting in the way of the healing journey or this kind of. a state of enlightenment, but the difficulty is the opportunity itself to learn and grow. And I think a key part of our role can really be to invite people into that awareness that the difficulty is really an opportunity. I think that's really interesting that you say that because I think of like, know, therapists in the past that have talked about like trying to stop yourself from having like an anxiety attack. It makes anxiety attack worse because you're trying to make this thing stop versus just embrace it and Yeah, I mean, you know, as someone who has suffered from anxiety for so much of my life, some of the most terrifying experiences I've had, especially with like ayahuasca, was when I was just like in this storm of anxiety. But really, like that was a golden opportunity to really see for me, like, what is this anxiety that I've created? When did I create it? What's the purpose? that my anxiety is serving. And in fact, what I learned during one of those experiences was that I had created anxiety as a way of protecting myself from something far worse, which was things that happened early in my childhood. And so in that moment, in that series of moments, I was able to actually fall in love with my anxiety. Like, thank goodness my anxiety had come into existence. to protect me. And so that allowed me to kind of, in a sense, fall in love with it. And I think that's really the pathway to letting it go, right? You can't push away your anxiety. You can only fall in love with it and thank it. And then over time, I think that part of you, to sort of use an IFS kind of way of framing it, that part of you can relax a little bit. So would you say that was like that would probably be one of your most common experiences, just a lot of anxiety or something along that? Well, when you get call ins on the hotline. Yeah, think that, yeah, definitely anxiety, feeling of being like really overwhelmed, feeling that this is never going to end, that the person is losing their mind, that something is wrong with them, powerful feelings of aloneness and disconnection. All of those are common, but we also get calls and texts from people who are just wanting to chat. So they may not be having a sort of challenging experience. They may just be facing something that they need to process with someone. And gosh, there's just such power in anonymity, especially during a psychedelic experience. There is a voice at the other end of the line, and that voice doesn't know who you are, and you don't know who that voice is, and you'll never meet in the outside world. And so that just really creates this like deep permission to say things that you may not feel comfortable enough to say to anyone, including your therapist. And by the way, I should say, you know, a third of our callers mentioned to us in their post-call survey that they have a therapist, but they're reaching out to us nonetheless. That could be because they're tripping and they're not gonna go to therapy tripping, but it could also just be because... The nature of the psychedelic experience can be so just weird and outside the bounds of like Western psychotherapy that people want to talk to someone who they know has tripped before and has had really like powerful tectonic psychedelic experiences. Well, you mentioned like not talking to it, like they're talking to you probably because they're tripping in the moment. but yeah, I like kind of, as you explained that, what I really thought of is like, it's very non-judgmental and that's kind of like one of the hard parts. You know, I remember the first time I took mushrooms and I didn't, I did not have a very good experience at all. And the people that helped me through that didn't try to like alter the state or whatever, get me from one state to another. They just kind of just talked to me and and then helped me see, helped me get to a more comfortable space where I felt really good. But I also remember that after the trip was over, I definitely had that sensation of like, God, I've told them everything. You Yeah. Right. You kind of feel a little naked in front of everybody all the time. be kind of nice to just like it off the phone with somebody like, all right, that was great. And we're going to see that. Totally. And honestly, I think one of the things that some callers report is feeling bad that they're taking up our time or feeling bad that they're imposing upon us to support them. And sometimes it's hard to ask for help. what I always say is, gosh, the amount of gratitude that we feel at Fireside Project, that our volunteers feel. when someone does reach out and we can support them, it's like a nuclear event with regard to gratitude. I mean, I think it's the most beautiful thing in the world to really be with someone in that state of just profound vulnerability and to really just be with them for whatever arises and then to really witness, to bear witness to whatever healing or transformation or Just weirdness is unfolding. just going to say that. Yeah, that can be a good fun part of it too. Just somebody that you can kind of connect with and just that's in the same head space as you at that time. Right, right. Yeah. you know, like one of the questions that we get a lot is, you know, who like, who are the people on the other end of the line? And you know, it's it's a range of folks, right? We have people, we have some people who are therapists and aspiring therapists. But we also just have some people who are, you know, don't work in psychedelics, don't want to work in psychedelics, but really have had powerful psychedelic experiences on their own. And so when you're sharing with someone about you know, a, a, an ego dissolution experience, a machine elf experience, a five NEO into the white light experience. Like the volunteers who you're talking to have probably had very similar experiences to you in the sense of powerful, powerful psychedelic experiences. And that just creates like such a, such a deep trust, I think, and, and, and, and connection. How do you train your support staff to kind of deal with that and then, you know, all these different points of view and different types and how did you kind of go about that? Yeah, so we really see the time at Fireside Project as like a full year of training. So each volunteer is with us for one year or more. And the way that the process works is we have about three to four trainings per year. There's an upfront foundational skills training that's about 50 hours. And that consists of a four day training that's on Zoom. that includes presentations, dyads and triads where you actually get to practice the skills. Then there's a written test followed by a one-on-one skills test with a supervisor where they go through different scenarios with you. Then the aspiring volunteer observes a couple of shifts on the support line just to... hear how other volunteers are doing it. And then they're on shift. And each shift is sort of like a mini community, or it's not like a mini community, it is a mini community. There are three to five volunteers per shift, depending on how busy the shift is, as well as a paid supervisor on every shift. And so there's so much mutual support that's provided, you know, one volunteer will get off a call, and then they can receive support from their fellow volunteers and from the supervisors and they can discuss how the call went, what was difficult about the call for them. And that's really how I think you can kind of learn and grow is doing it and then getting that kind of like feedback from others who have done it before. And so I would just say that was probably the biggest benefit you guys see from the line, the project or the fireside project is from just having that support there. I think there's so many benefits that we've witnessed over the last four years or so. mean, yes, for sure, access to psychedelic support. We've supported around 30,000 people so far. We did a study with UCSF and Mount Sinai that looked at our harm reduction impact. Do we avert 911 calls, ER visits, physical harms? And yes, that... very clearly we do. But there are so many other benefits as well. You know, we've trained upwards of 600 volunteers who have all spent a full year with us. And so they now, they go forth into the psychedelic community with really like a rich experience of and knowledge of how to support people. So I think whatever jobs they go on to, they're better at by virtue of doing this. And then there's just community. you know, fireside volunteers become friends, develop really deep connections with each other. And, you know, we've also just, we haven't like mentioned, you know, diversity yet, but, you know, 60 % of our current volunteers identify as being from marginalized communities, whether that's, you know, LGBTQ +, whether it's military veterans. and BIPOC and so forth. so we've really like, I think, created, helped to create a pipeline into the psychedelic field for people who may have otherwise been excluded from it. And if you're a caller, you can actually ask to process with someone sharing an aspect of your identity or lived experience. Now, of course, we don't have every identity and lived experience on every shift, but... but you can find out, for instance, like when a military veteran is working. And so there are these sort of like layers of pureness, if you will, right? Like one layer is having taken psychedelics, but another could be military service. And so that's a particularly powerful integration call when a vet can process with another vet related to psychedelic experiences. So I think that's another benefit that we're seeing. Absolutely. know Bryan's a vet and myself, I'm autistic. So I said, you know, it's important to be like, it does kind of affect us as people with autism a little bit differently. So it's good to have somebody I know I can be like, Hey, I'm autistic. I'm freaking out a little. What can I do? And just knowing that somebody there that can do that. That's, mean, that's really helpful. Yeah, and a segment of our training as well is really about, you know, how do we provide, what does it mean to provide culturally attuned care? How can you approach every conversation with this sense of profound humility, with a deep understanding that everyone's worldview is going to be different from yours? And so I like to say that we sort of hold two truths. One is that callers should have the option to receive support from someone sharing their lived experience. And another truth is that everyone should be able to support everyone. And so just because the aspects of my lived experience are different from yours, that can actually, I think, provide a basis for connection or I can understand your experience by virtue of what I've experienced myself. So what would you say would be one of your biggest challenges you faced in creating the support line? So many challenges, so many challenges. The biggest one by far is philanthropy. It's savage and brutal to have to fundraise for an organization while also running that organization. It is wreaks havoc on one's mental health and it wreaks havoc on really like the ability to grow as an organization because you just don't know from one... month to the next, what the philanthropic outlook is going to be. And certainly, these days, first with the Lycos MDMA decision, and then with Massachusetts, who knows what the philanthropic sector is going to look like. So that's the biggest one. Another one is just getting the word out there. We provide this amazing free service and also Outreach is time consuming and expensive often if you're doing paid ads. And it just like drives me crazy when I'll hear people talking about adverse events and the risks of psychedelics and they're not mentioning fireside. And I'm like, you know, this is like fretting about, you know, getting sunburned and not mentioning that sunblock exists. So that is a point of, as you can hear from my voice, frustration for me. Yeah, I understand that. As soon as I figured out about you guys, I threw it up on the subreddit and just stuck it as the side, as on the sidebar, so every free confidential support for anybody who needs it. So I think it is really important in the community to get that out. So looking ahead, what are the goals for the fireside project? Yeah, so our biggest goal right now is to become financially self-sustaining. I think to really have a stable organization that lasts for a long time, we need to become financially self-sustaining. And one of the ways that we're doing that is through this amazing coaching program that we launched a couple of months ago called Fireside Certified Psychedelic Coaching. And the idea there is, think of it as like a telehealth platform for psychedelic coaching. So you go to our website firesideproject.org and you pick a coach based on a photo and bio, and then you schedule a session with that coach. That session happens by Zoom, so you see who they are and they see who you are. And it's really about providing long-term support. So we do preparation, unlike on the support line, and integration, but not trip sitting. So let's say you have a big journey coming up, whether that's at a retreat, whether it's a solo underground journey, whether it's an academy clinic, et cetera, you hire a coach and they help to support you. So that's helping you dive into your intention. Why am I doing this? Why now? What are the obstacles that I might encounter? How might I navigate those? And then... They're there to kind of wait for you at the other end of the journey and support you as you make sense of that experience and then incorporate it into your life. One of the things that makes our coaching program unique is I think we're the first program, the first coaching program that trains, hires, and then supervises our coaches. So all of our coaches start off as volunteers for a full year, going through that process that I described earlier. And then at the end of that year, they're eligible to apply to become a coach. They go through another hiring process and then they become a paid W-2 employee and then get weekly clinical supervision from an amazing psychologist, Jacob Haum, who's a professor at Mount Sinai. And so we're really trying to like import like the best of clinical supervision into this like non-clinical context. you know, sessions are 90,$90 for 50 minutes, which is way less than therapy and actually way less than other coaching or $150 for 80 minutes. And we've had 110 sessions so far and it's been going great. We have six coaches. And I think it's really, you know, as I was alluding to earlier, what makes psychedelics like work best is when you have someone who, when you have like long-term support. preparation, integration. But right now in the psychedelic field, long-term support is really only provided, at all, really almost never provided, but if at all, it's by therapists. what I like to say is therapy is a great tool for some people some of the time, and the continuum of care in the psychedelic field should have... more options for support. I coaching is one of them. think like integration circles can be another. So how often do you guys get someone that's maybe never tried psychedelics before at all and has started out with the coaching program? That's a good question. I actually think that all of our clients so far have had previous psychedelic experience, but sometimes they've had very little psychedelic experience. The reason that we probably haven't had someone yet who hasn't tried psychedelics before is because it's just an advertising issue. I think we're well known-ish within the psychedelic bubble, but then... the people who are coming to the psychedelic field for the first time, like maybe they read Michael Pollan's book or saw his documentary, they may not be aware of Fireside or our coaching program. Or even of the notion that the way psychedelics work best is when you actually prepare and go through long-term integration. know, psychedelics are not like aspirin for a headache where you just take it and the depression goes away. Right, exactly. I'd say that would probably the best way for like the members of the subreddit or people listening to kind of support you guys. Yeah, mean, I think it could be a couple of things. Like one is just share that we exist. Like let your communities know that we exist. And as to the support line, it's totally free and it's available 12 hours a day, seven days a week. So, you know, whether that's on Reddit or posting, resharing this podcast, posting about it on social media, you know, any communities that you're a part of, like local psychedelic societies. telling your friends, that's a huge thing. And then, if you're really, if you've made the choice to have a psychedelic experience and you kind of want to dive deep, I think hiring a coach is just really a wonderful way of doing that. We offer a free 20-minute consultation. So you could pick a coach and then chat with them for 20 minutes and get a feel for what might it be like to work with them, what's their vibe like, and answer and ask them questions. And you guys, have an app too, right? We do. We just actually relaunched our app, both in the Apple Store and Android Store. We think it's the first ever app that's specifically designed for people tripping. And so what that means is when you open it up, there's just two buttons, one that says call and one that says text. And that's basically it. There's a couple of links to our website, but we really just wanted to make it as easy as possible. It just... way easier to have an app in your phone and hit the app icon than it is to like scroll through your phone and try to find our phone number. my advice is just download the app now. It's free. It can just sit there and it's way easier than try to navigate the app store or your phone contact list while you're tripping. Well, I guess before we wrap everything up, is there anything you'd like to add? I would just say, well, one, thank Thank you both. And, you know, thank you for sharing. Thank you for this podcast and for, you know, letting your subreddit know about us. And yeah, just, you know, check out our website, download our app. We're a nonprofit. We love supporting people, tripping or integrating. And yeah, it's, it's always an honor to support people rather than a burden. So it's, I know it's a leap of faith and I think we. We do our best to honor the trust that our callers place in us. Yeah. So where do we find your app again? Where do we get a hold of you and find out about Fireside Project? Yeah, so in the Apple Store and Android, it's just fireside project. On the internet, it's just www.firesideproject.org. Instagram is at firesideproject. We also have TikTok, which is at firesideproject. So pretty easy. I also suggest, one of the questions we get a lot is how can I become a volunteer? And so sign up for our newsletter on our website. Also follow us on social media. As I said, we do about three to four trainings per year. We'll probably do one, like I'm thinking in January or February. So just sign up for the newsletter now and then we always let folks know. And then once we open up applications, we do like an FAQ night where you can come and ask. ask us questions. It's a really, really beautiful experience to support others who are tripping. And so if you work in psychedelics or if you just love supporting fellow human beings, it's a really wonderful experience to have as a volunteer. Awesome. It sounds great. I really appreciate you coming on here. Thank you so much for coming on. We'd love to have you back sometime and we can have a chat again about other subjects. you Bye! you Bye! you guys, welcome back. And so that was our interview with Joshua White from the Fireside Project. Yes. It was kind of interesting. If you go back and you listen to it, if you wanted to listen to it in order of how these were recorded, this would have been the first episode. Yeah. And you can kind of tell. I mean, I was a little nervous there, but that's why I Bryan with me. I appreciate it. You're helping me there a lot. yeah, it's great. I remember that music was Fluntwick. guys support us on Patreon, patreon.com Divergent States. That's, you know, hit us up. We're growing. I'm putting up stuff there every day. Bryan's on there with me. Got him as a mod now. I've also set up a Discord server just for the Patreon. Thanks to Brad again, Brad Burge. H, you know, Bryan here, Psychonaut. I our next episode, we're going to do a best of Psychonaut 2024. We're going to go over Psychonaut's biggest posts and best posts from this last year. That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah, I think so. I think we're just going go through. Maybe we'll get some of your comments, call out some of the comments from the subreddit, read your comments on the podcast. It'll be a lot of fun. Yeah, I think it will be. I think it'll be great. I mean, we've got a great lineup still to come. We've got a couple episodes already recorded and we're going to be, think, with Wendy Tucker from the Shulgin Foundation and Rick Doblin. yeah, got more interviews we're going to be conducting. in the few, this whole month coming up. you guys stick around. Right. So yeah, again, patreon.com Divergent States, hit us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all the fun, know, blue sky, got all the social media up. So yeah, hit us up on there and you guys remember be safe and have fun. Catch you later. you you