JR Sawyers: A Filmmaker's Journey into Psychedelics - A Trip Elsewhere

In this deeply personal and eye-opening episode, we sit down with filmmaker JR Sawyers, the mind behind the indie psychedelic drama A Trip Elsewhere. What begins as a conversation about a film turns into a powerful exploration of transformation, healing, and consciousness.

JR opens up about the psychedelic retreat that changed his life, the emotional weight of isolation during the pandemic, and how he turned those experiences into cinematic storytelling. We dive into the emotional architecture of A Trip Elsewhere, the science and stigma of psychedelics, and how visuals can speak to the soul when words fall short.

From ego death to sacred geometry, from heartbreak to healing—this episode is as introspective and surreal as the film itself. Whether you’re curious about psychedelics, passionate about indie film, or just looking for a conversation with real heart, this one is not to be missed.

🎬 A Trip Elsewhere is streaming now on Amazon Prime, Tubi, Apple TV, and the Roku Channel.

Takeaways

• J.R. Sawyers is an independent filmmaker inspired by introspective films.
• His film explores the therapeutic effects of psychedelics.
• Sawyers experienced a transformative retreat that influenced his filmmaking.
• The film's visuals aim to capture the essence of psychedelic experiences.
• Character development reflects different emotional struggles and transformations.
• The future of psychedelics in therapy looks promising with increasing acceptance.
• Sawyers drew inspiration from various books and films to shape his narrative. Actors appreciated the character journeys in the film.
• Filmmaking was a way to relive the retreat experience.
• Setting and guidance are crucial for psychedelic experiences.
• Sawyers is working on a horror film about a possessed psychiatrist.
• The film addresses the silent pandemic of mental health issues.
• Psychedelics can help build empathy in a disconnected world.
• Letting go is essential during psychedelic experiences.
• He has never had a bad trip, highlighting the need for guidance.

Again, thank you to everyone who is supporting on Patreon, all of the music entries (DylAlien, Flintwich, and Future Boogz), everyone who has helped with scheduling and booking, and last but not least, r/psychonaut.

 00:00 – Intro & Guest Welcome
 02:00 – Inspirations & Origins
 04:00 – First Psychedelic Retreat Experience
 07:00 – Translating Psychedelics to Film
10:30 – The Visual & Emotional Grammar of A Trip Elsewhere
14:00 – Character Arcs & Psychological Themes
18:00 – Real-Life Moments That Made the Film
21:00 – Therapeutic Psychedelics: Real Science, Real Stories
25:00 – Set, Setting, and Integration
30:00 – Viewer Reactions, Misconceptions & Mother’s Transformation
34:00 – The Future of Psychedelics in Film and Medicine
37:00 – Behind the Scenes: Budget, Casting & Visual Storytelling
41:00 – New Projects & Final Reflections
44:00 – Advice for Psychedelic Newcomers
47:00 – Outro & Where to Watch A Trip Elsewhere

Transcript

3L1T3 (00:15.256)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Divergent States. I'm Elite, back with Brian. How's going, man? Hey. not a lot. know, same old, same old. Tonight, excited to bring you guys JR Sawyers, Los Angeles-based filmmaker. How you doing, man?

Hey, what's going on?

JR Sawyers (00:33.996)
I'm doing well. It's the nice weather out here, thankfully. It's been raining a lot, definitely feels like I lay right now. How you doing?

Yeah, it's a little chillier out here, but we're doing all right.

Were you guys impacted by those fires at all?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. was, we had a little bit of a scare. I mean, we're far enough east and south that we weren't in immediate danger, but there was, we live about five miles away from the Hollywood Hills and there was a night where the Hollywood Hills caught fire and I was like, wow, I never thought I'd see this. Yeah, that's...

I that felt like apocalyptic. the city recovering?

JR Sawyers (01:17.614)
I haven't so the the main areas that got hit were Pacific Palisades and the the Eaton fires we haven't been anywhere near there since they won't even let us get in there unless we live in either, but

Awesome to you guys are safe. Yeah. So you're from New York, originally from New York. You're inspired by introspective films like Taxi Driver and Rocky, other characters you wrote and spectacles like Interstellar and Jaro's. I'm going to do that one again. Hold on. Brian, have to cut this. Yeah, can I get it cut down now?

I'm not cutting it out.

Stan.

I'm glad you're

3L1T3 (02:03.374)
Originally from New York City, JR was inspired by introspective films like Taxi Driver and Rocky movies filled with character driven spectacle like Interstellar and Jaws. Man, it's great to have you here. if, yeah. So if you want- If there's anything you'd like to, if you'd want to talk about your own kind of journey or research or what kind of went into the film, if you're open to sharing it or what kind of intrigued you about the subject initially.

Yeah, of course. So I've been an independent filmmaker for several years. during that time, I kept hearing about the therapeutic effects of psychedelics, which was, mean, up until I started reading this stuff, I thought psychedelics was just about recreational. know what mean? Like, the movies always seem to make it that way and the things you'd hear, but they were not.

There was it wasn't very well informed, you know, and I started reading this stuff. I'm like, wow, that's interesting I didn't know that power of psychedelic and I was what like I was wondering why there hadn't been a movie about that because movies are always about character development character transformation and then you have something as powerful as this and you could create a lot of drama and conflict with it, so I put that on the back burner and

I was training this client of mine who I told her about this idea that I have to make a psychedelic movie at some point. And she's like, oh, we have retreats once a month. You should come. And I was like, a cup of coffee makes me crazy. I don't even want to know what a psychedelic will do. So I just kept telling her no for the better part of the year. And then the pandemic happened.

I live in California, the rest of my family lives in New York and New Jersey. and I was seeing somebody at the time, our relationship broke up early on in the pandemic. So I felt very, very isolated, like a lot of us were. And then I reached out to that same woman and I was like, you know what, that tree you were talking about, think I'm ready to do it. It can't get worse than what I'm.

Bryan (04:09.944)
Yeah.

JR Sawyers (04:19.022)
going through right now. mean, like my biggest accomplishment in 2020 was I watched all three seasons of The Sibs. know what mean? That's the kind of I was doing. So I reached out to her and she's like, oh, we're doing a retreat this Saturday. She called me. was like, great. so we took a car to this beautiful house in Redondo Beach. There was about 20, 30 of us. And I was happy to see that there was adults there, that it wasn't like just a bunch of 18-year-olds partying.

It was between the ages of 20s to like 60s. And these were professionals. And the whole thing was run by a psychoanalyst who was not going to be on it. So he could look after people like myself who were new. from his experience, knew exactly how much to give me. He gave me a combination of ayahuasca and psilocybin. And I mean...

Long story short, mean, you could ask me more questions if you like about the details of it. But for the most part, it was like having 50 therapy sessions in one. It was just like I had never experienced such a feeling of clarity. Even afterwards, for a couple weeks, just felt like my emotions weren't ruling me like they were. And I know, I just saw things.

how they say, you know, if you could take a big step backwards, you could see things, but what they really are, that's what I was feeling. I was happy that I had agency during the whole thing and I wasn't hallucinating or anything. Like I thought that might happen or colors or anything like that. There was nothing like that at all. And I had a great time meeting all these people, you know, some of them are still friends. And so not long after I immediately started writing the script because like, okay, this is like the perfect setting.

for a movie in which a group of friends, they basically take psychedelics and they're all green. I want it to be cinematic. So I was like, how do I do this? So maybe they share a dream. And then bottom line, the movie is about, like I wanted the experience that I had, that clarity that came out of

JR Sawyers (06:43.244)
that retreat, wanted it to be illustrated in the form of a movie. Hopefully I accomplished that with the small budget that I had.

What was your budget for this film?

Bryan (06:58.222)
100

Under, okay. That's really impressive, dude. What I really noticed about this film was the quality of the visual effects. Yeah. That was really, really well done.

thank you.

JR Sawyers (07:16.75)
I appreciate the kind words. I had a friend who helped with a few scenes, and then I had another friend who was learning the art of CGI, and he was like, you know what? I want to help you out. It was like a hobby of his. And then the rest I did myself. I would say I did about 85 % of CGI myself, like the basic stuff, where I didn't have to create anything. But thank you.

Yeah, I felt just like it really captures the way that it feels when you're tripping. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know how exactly to say that because I'm not like a visual person. I don't know how to create those sort of things. But what I'm trying to say is I thought it was just, you tapped into it.

Yeah, kind of where you're going at, I felt it was really good at conveying the ideas of a lot of the themes you get during difficult experiences sometimes. Just how it was able to like...

like sometimes it'll reflect something back at you. It's almost like an absurdity and it makes you go, wow, it's kind of, you know, is that where I'm actually going with this thinking? And it just kind of reflects that back to you. And I saw that kind of done in the filmmaking too. And that's that really impressed me. mean, beyond just the trippy visuals, you know, kind of as people talk about, but is there any other way you were kind of how you kind of thought about

portraying psychedelics in the film beyond just the trippy visuals like that.

JR Sawyers (08:50.072)
So, you know, it's funny. Before I gave, so there was a period after that retreat and before the screenwriting that I went through, kind of like a personal journey where I was like, I had been told multiple times that like, this is all about letting go of your ego, right? And during that retreat, as amazing as it was, I still felt like my...

my ego was very much intact. So I did went through a journey where I kept trying to get more and more powerful psychedelics. What do you call that psychedelic that comes from a frog poison?

A 5-MeO DMT. the Bufo Toad, if it's the frog venom, think. yeah, the Sonoran Desert Toad, Little nerd out for you right there.

So that's being warm here.

Bryan (09:41.959)
Yeah, was some, sorry, that was some pretty hardcore knowledge there that you just dropped, like off the top of your head.

Well, Mike Tyson was he's a real big fan of that. Apparently that's his big thing as he likes the Joe Rogan. Yeah, they really like the toad venom.

So like so I did it because I I started doing some like micro doses and and it wasn't having effect and then I did I did a much bigger dose and Again, it like I was feeling like these amazing things by really wanted to have like ego death. You know, I mean because I Felt that I not Not egotistical, but I could feel that

I was very, like I had a strong ego, if that makes sense. So the same woman, she had a connection with this guy who was able to hook me up and he had to do, he had to give it to me four times. And it's still like, I preferred the gentleness of psilocybin. So what I wound up doing was I had this nurse friend come over and I'm like, okay, I'm going to do like five, six grams. And she just kind of just sat.

in the living room, just read a book. And I listened to music at that really high dose. I just closed my eyes and it was like a visual symphony that was happening, like behind the curtain. And I remember thinking like, how the hell do I get this in a movie? You know, just visually, you know? Again, it's a small budget, so this was really tough to get it across, but...

JR Sawyers (11:28.212)
some of what I saw that day made it into the movie. Just the lights, the colors. So there was, and I experienced this too when I did the, I'm sorry, the five, the frog was.

5MeO, DMT, yeah.

Here it goes again.

JR Sawyers (11:54.421)
I remember even though it didn't really work the DMT. I did remember an instant of like just lightning You know, mean, it's just kind of like this weird colorful lightning So I was like, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna put that in the movie There was definitely scenes where it was just like like lights, you know but for the most part The visuals I was trying to convey what was happening in their heads, you know, I mean

Just like, instance, lot people don't pick up on this, but like that scene where she's talking to her mother. Throughout her dream, her mother's roughly the same age. But that conversation they have in the coffee shop, when she starts to doubt the world she's in, when the mother's like, you have a daughter? What daughter? For a couple instances, the mother's really old. Yes.

Yeah.

Bryan (12:42.702)
Yes. I noticed that right away, yeah.

Yeah.

She's only ages like 30 years. So like that's a bad chook right there. So like that was, know, that's not the typical visual thing you see in a psychedelic film, but I felt like that would, you know, like whenever she's doubting the world she's in, it starts falling apart and then you get like these weird animated creations and stuff like that.

be very unsub.

3L1T3 (13:17.496)
Well, yeah, I really like how it, as you said, it's not like something you would necessarily see during a psychedelic trip, being in another world, but you really conveyed the idea of like, sometimes you get these ideas when you're tripping or you're deep in those states where it's almost like a memory that you become convinced of. You're like, yeah, well this is, and it just becomes your reality for that.

that period of time. so that's what I felt like it kind of really conveyed to me is that kind of, yeah, that feel of it. yeah.

I was somewhat inspired by Inception, the way they talked about how you don't know you're in a dream when you're in a dream.

Yeah, and I'm thinking back to, I can't remember her name, but the character, she's waking up from multiple dreams as she's like slowly making it back.

Serena is the character, Andrea is the actress.

Bryan (14:19.886)
Serena. And that was a dude, that scene where she's like talking about her daughter with the therapist. Wow. Yeah, seriously. That should have made it up into the Oscar nominees.

Type again.

JR Sawyers (14:35.286)
Alright

It was, yeah, no, was, I was really emotional. There were some points, especially there at the end, like, like she ran her like straight, got up and went straight to her daughter, you know, and I kind of, there were different times I empathized with all the characters really. Yeah, from that, you know, like I said, Serena, she gets that idea in her head and that's just how it is at that point from then on out. And then, you know, or the reflection back and you see,

the other lady, the blonde character. Amy. Amy, yes, yes, sorry. I smoked since between now and But yeah. She kind of how you see how she was reflecting back on her, you know, the relationship and just seeing how he was treating her kind of. And that's.

all right.

3L1T3 (15:30.456)
kind of how it felt to me. was that just she was realizing at that point how he'd always kind of treated her like shit from, you know, the whole time back. So I mean, the whole I've had kind of those saves that, you know, each one is kind of like, yeah, I can kind of see that. And then and then, you know, this early it was a lot of those early experimentations like with me for a lot of those realizations and the empathy that I get from it. That's where a lot of it came from. I thought it was great.

You mean when you say the empathy is more personal?

Yeah, personally, just for me, felt like I was just like, just each one of them, could, you I understood where they're coming from a lot of even from the beginning. The character that he was, he was just like, Oh, well, I don't know the and he kind of, you know, it was just there. And I've been kind of there too. Like you just like, well, okay, let's do this. And, know, whatever it is, what comes or comes.

And so I've been there kind of in each position and kind of each place. And it's like I said, it's really great. Kind of showing that diversity of each kind of point of view and kind of going on those lines. Each character has kind of that unique struggle each one of them is dealing with. Do their experiences with psychedelics, do you see them as kind of reflecting each having a different psychological and emotional transformation?

I mean, in a way, most of them kind of represent the things that I was going through. the character that I wound up playing myself, it wasn't originally intended for me. That's kind of a long story, but his jaded personality was definitely reflecting the way I was feeling at that point. A lot of people were feeling 20-20-20.

3L1T3 (17:24.718)
Yeah, that was good one too.

Yeah, so I wanted to convey that aspect. And then I also felt like that other character, Lenny, where he's very hesitant. mean, like I said before, I was very hesitant about doing this. I was afraid I was going to end up like for scump after, know, just like almost a vegetable. Yeah. But and then, yeah, so the intention with these four characters was to represent different

points to view on this. So like Amy, for instance, she's more about the recreation. She's been drinking a lot of wine. She needs something a little bit more powerful. And then Serena represents, she's more depressed than all of them in a way, but she's hiding it. It's tough to be going through postpartum depression during that period.

Yeah.

Her character is actually based off of a real person that I briefly met, actually. Gotcha. In 2020, when I first moved into the building I live in now, I was parking my car in the garage and I walked to the stairs to get up to my apartment and I kept hearing a baby cry. At first I just ignored it and I just kept going up and then I was like, where's this baby? I go downstairs in the garage and there's a baby sitting in a...

JR Sawyers (18:53.582)
bassinet in the middle of the car garage. Just like I don't see a mother or nothing, know, like in that scene in the movie. It's just she or he is just sitting in this bassinet. So I started walking up to it and then I see the mother, she's just staring at her baby and she's like maybe 40 feet away. And she sees me approaching and she just kind of snaps out of it and she grabs her baby and walks away. She must have been like 18 years old.

The way I imagined is that she was going through something. This was like early days, July 2020. So I always wanted to know what her story was. I wrote her into the movie.

Gotcha. Yeah, I liked it. like the, you said I liked all the characters, kind of how they, you know, the, and I like how you kind of brought it all kind of to a close, you know, and that was, I'm not going to give away the ending, but yeah, I really like how you kind of wrapped it up and brought it all, it's just, you know, and it brings it about, like you said, it's the first film to kind of explore that therapeutic effect of psychedelics that people can have.

Thank you. Yeah, no problem. think that it really kind of also your film also Explores the idea of set and setting a little bit Just the importance sometimes of having you know, mindset, you know before indulging or Being in a good setting which was even kind of a good thing You know even in your movie where they you know, they were in a good spot where they you know Had trusted people around them for the most part that they knew so yeah

Yeah, very true. mean, when I did that retreat, that was something they talked a lot about. we actually, before we did anything, we all sat around and we talked about what our intention was, what we hoped to get out of this. I mean, honestly, I don't remember what my intention was. I think I just wanted a peace of mind, basically.

JR Sawyers (20:56.936)
And I was reading the news a lot and I was not liking what was happening in the world. And I was like, you know what? I can't control these things. I don't know. Let's go for peace. and I definitely got that. And then afterwards, again, we sat around and we talked about did we do we accomplish what we intended in the movie? There's an element of that, but there's also because they're all so green to it and they and they don't really know. I mean, some of it gets kind of dark.

for the most part. yeah, I once heard that whether it's a bad trip or a good trip, it's often what you need, So that's kind of like my intention as well.

Yeah, I see that quite a bit. I've heard people say sometimes there's no such thing as a bad trip and I don't necessarily agree with that because you can't have a bad time. a lot of them are just difficult experiences that you really have to, you you take some time to integrate. So yeah, that's...

Yeah, I mean in my movie, I'm not sure I would well besides the fact that they took way like they Within the movie they took a dose that has never been recorded in history So that's where the fantasy part comes for sure because none of us know what what would happen at that dose and there

Say there is a story from the 70s, I think, where some people accidentally snorted it in lines. thought it was cocaine and I want to say like milligrams worth and they were all eventually fine after. I mean, a lot of them had to, I'd have to look that up specifically, but yeah, was going to ask you if you'd done any research and looked into any of that on the...

3L1T3 (22:50.128)
Before him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the stories that I remember reading initially was something similar that this woman overdosed by a lot and she was bipolar. I believe she was bipolar. And her bipolar disorder actually disappeared. I mean, I don't know if it's still gone, but...

I think I know what you're referring to. I'd have to look that up specifically. yeah, I think I heard Was she in a coma for while? I think it was like for like three days, she was it was two or three days or something. She was just kind of incoherent and she she came back and she was she was fine. And well, I mean, there's other stories like Adam Strauss comedian, he cured his OCD using psilocybin. So it's very much.

very much, kind of that therapeutic use is really great. And it's becoming more and more popular and accepted today.

I think with social media and other aspects of modern society, we needed more than ever just to break up these set pathways we have in our brain that we have a hard time breaking out of. I remember reading about... Have you ever read this book by Michael Pollan, How to Change Your Mind? That's a famous one, right? it? Yeah.

JR Sawyers (24:16.206)
He talked about lantern consciousness versus spotlight consciousness. so I basically wanted that, you know what mean? It's more of an experience like the way the child views the world, you know?

I you.

So with psychedelic assisted therapy becoming more accepted, what do you see for the future of psychedelics, medicine, and therapy just personally?

JR Sawyers (24:48.01)
I mean, I think ketamine is becoming progressively more used by doctors. Am I correct on that? So that's a good start. I heard that at one point they were going to try to use MDMA more for people dealing with post-traumatic stress. I don't know where that's going on, but I do believe that psychedelics should be used a lot more.

By by doctors and and health care out here, especially with the with the mental health issues that are out there But I but I do think that it should be guided by by a professional because like you mentioned yourself intention is so important I Think about all the money doing all the money that's spent on just like, you know antidepressant pills and all these different systems

Yeah, that's a good point.

JR Sawyers (25:46.35)
to help with depression, anxiety, but just one or two sessions of this stuff have been able to cure people. It's amazing.

you know, sessions with MDMA, psilocybin, whatever, you know.

Have you ever sat through any of these sessions or has it usually just been like these retreats and things like that?

So I did that one retreat, and then I told myself, I'm going to do it again eventually. But it was a bit pricey. I was like, I'm going to do it eventually, but I want to see if I can do these microdosing for a while. Because I heard about microdosing. I still don't know how effective it is, but I want to try it. so the psychoanalyst that created this retreat, his wife, or his ex-wife, I guess.

Had a small business where she was guiding people through through through micro dosing so I did that for a while And And then like I said before so I kind of like at some point I was like, okay, want that ego death, know and I think I saw that same woman at one point when we went on a hike and I was I did a lot of mushrooms on that hike and

JR Sawyers (27:11.146)
One of the best experiences that I ever had was I went to this place called the Arboretum, which is a, it's like a garden but with trees, but trees from all different parts of the world. It's actually more beautiful than it sounds. But I took a little bit more than a micro dose. And I remember just like, just loving those trees. I just like feeling so connected to nature. you mentioned empathy.

I remember during the retreat, that was a big takeaway. Like people that would normally kind of, like I remember there was this one guy, he kept going around talking about his love life with everybody. And he just kept going around sitting next to somebody, just talking about it all day. If I had been sober, I'd have been like, I don't want to hear about this. But during this session, I I even love that. know what mean? I just felt connected with everyone.

during this time of also just like this, there's a lot of strong individualism happening, especially in this country. I think we could use more of that, you know, just to have more empathy and connect with people and nature and all that.

I feel like community is one of the best parts about the psychedelic world because of the community around it. Were there any misconceptions that you were hoping that maybe a trip to elsewhere would help correct a little bit maybe?

So I was more worried that the film would give people the wrong idea. So if you just watch the trailer and then you don't watch the movie, they see all this CGI and they're like, that doesn't really happen when you take Alistair. I have to correct people. No, no, most of this is just a dream. And they take such a big dose that they share a dream, which is the fantasy part.

JR Sawyers (29:08.044)
Besides that, terms of, I guess the biggest, so my mother, for instance, very much against psychedelics. After she saw the film, she's like, okay, well, I guess the point of this film is that psychedelics are powerful for helping people through these mental illnesses. It transformed her in a way, like the way she would look at this, like she got the point of the movie. So that was good to hear.

When I read a few of the reviews for the film, the takeaway has been generally positive in that and regarding the how I portray psychedelics and what it's capable of. Hopefully. I mean, you guys are the experts. What do you guys think?

Like I said, I really liked it. I thought some of the visuals were actually fairly accurate with the sacred geometry fractals, something like the larger fractal structures. I've seen some closed-eye visuals pretty similar, so I felt like a lot of them were really good.

You know, and obviously the fantasy part, you're right. I was like, well, I've never seen anything like that. But then I went into it looking at it, kind of trying to keep an open mind about what you were trying to show. And I was like, I totally get what you're trying to show here. And that makes sense that that's what's, you know, what's going on. So, yeah, I really liked it. And I thought you did a great job with that.

Yeah, it's like you're visually capturing the way it feels. Like, you're right in saying that like, yeah, maybe that's not exactly how you see it, but I feel like other people really make like a cartoon character out of that. And they make it like a stereotype, this is what tripping is. But the way that it was visually like given, like how we were talking earlier with the face getting older and younger in that scene, or like your character, he doesn't get to see her face.

Bryan (31:08.494)
and or like Serena who is constantly trying to figure out where her daughter's at and being hit with that dread of like you maybe don't have her anymore, she may be gone. And those are the kind of things that you really, feel and like fear and get kind of caught up in in your own head. And then like with the waves of in and out of like some of the trip coming down, but then it's like, nope, not over just yet. You come back into it like.

Kind of that same vibe with the waking up from the dreams and stuff. I think it takes a lot of effort and talent and good storytelling to be able to portray it like that. And I think you did a really good job. And it definitely showcases that you're an experienced person with psychedelics. came at it with that kind of mindset.

Yeah, mean, did. It wasn't. Yeah. And I read a lot of books, too. It wasn't just the retreats and stuff like that. Like, I really wanted to educate myself on this. I mean, I wonder, like, what is the current climate regarding psychedelics and with the government and all that? Do you guys?

I think it's well with RFK Jr. confirmed as head of HHS. there should be, there's probably... think it's going to be, he's fairly pro psychedelics. I believe it will be the hopefully good news on that front.

You know, believe Maps is going to resubmit. They had some issues with their stuff, but they're going to resubmit their application. So hopefully they'll get the IPDMA for PTSD passed through.

3L1T3 (32:42.75)
I want to say they've gotten a couple of the issues they brought up in the hearings already taken care of. that's great news. You mentioned a while ago, you had said you kind of read some books. Were there any specific books or films that kind of shaped how you were portraying this economic journey?

Yeah, so I did a lot of research. mean, the big book that really wowed me was How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan. In terms of movies, because after reading that book, I finally really understood what it's doing, the psychedelics. I mean, even the whole idea that you could suddenly hear colors and know what mean?

See sounds you know I mean like you know I really wanted to get that across in the movie somehow I Thought that was really fascinating and I mean it's not any wonder that a lot of musicians They they take these kind of drugs to be inspired to create something new like you're just your brains just opening up And then in terms of movies What was that movie with Johnny Depp

Like I felt that that was the most accurate in terms of when you're when you're on psychedelics what you see

Fear of nothing in Las Vegas.

JR Sawyers (34:08.398)
And then there was a I remember during the filming of the movie there was a Netflix series that I saw with no Cole Kidman. I think it was nine perfect strangers. It was something like this. And basically the movie is about a group of people who go to this retreat at this mansion compound kind of place and

there are several scenes where they take psychedelics. And I thought it was actually really well done, actually. Nobody talks about it that much, but... And I've always been curious if maybe there have been movies in the past that talked about the therapeutic effects of psychedelics, and we just don't know about it. So I never was able to find any, but I, you know, maybe someday, like, I'll do some really, you know, deep research, because I'm sure it exists. But...

I've looked around, most of the early cinema I've seen is either like LSD exploitation, like The Trip, or kind of just weird, like Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. Just weird cinema.

Yeah, like I said, think it like you did a great job with just being able to pull those elements. And I agree that Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Johnny Depp, they did a really good job of like the...

like the carpets and stuff moving and kind of how you kind of did the same with like the walls or there was one scene particularly, I you were zooming into something on it and it just it broke into this geometry and I was like, yeah, I've seen something like that a few times. So yeah.

JR Sawyers (36:01.08)
But even a movie like Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, it's a comedy. a lot of it's about the recreation. I couldn't find too many movies about therapeutic effects. But yeah, and in terms of visual, for sure, very accurate.

Did you have any difficulties in getting anybody to take the project seriously because of the subject matter at all?

No, but I remember the actors when I did cast them and they read the script for the first time they told me they were grateful that it wasn't just about you know but they thought it was just gonna be an hour and a half of just you know a party basically they were happy that the characters went through some kind of journey because of that experience

One thing I would have liked to have seen what Lenny

Yeah, that's funny. So, okay, so I'll tell you because I don't think everybody gets it. But basically, Lenny, he takes the smallest dose. So he actually never really was on that trip with them. He was awake the whole time they were.

3L1T3 (37:15.774)
So that's why he was just get there. He was like coming in the flashes like they're like, he's dead. Yeah, that makes sense.

So the dreams start early like when they're trying to touch him and they can't touch him that's because they're already

Yeah, thought that was hilarious. He's like he goes to touch him and they're like help help your paramedic and he's like, huh? I don't know man. I don't know what's wrong with them

That was pretty good. mean, at that point, guess they're they're kind of in a walking state a little bit, but they're definitely dreaming. And then at some point, they're just like, they're just out. they're, you know, like my character and Amy, they're like, basically sleeping out in a sidewalk. And then Serena's in the apartment, she's out. And for the whole time they're out, it's Lenny basically trying to revive her, talking to her through her ear. And that's why you see her, you know, and coming in and out of her dream.

So yeah, makes sense. get it now. Yeah, I was I was kind of like, man, was he like just tripping real hard and we just didn't really see it. But now that made that. Yeah, you see even stuff I didn't even get you did.

Bryan (38:18.286)
Okay, so one of the parts that I can point out very specifically that I feel like you nailed what it feels like to be tripping is when she's like, well, how do I know you're not dead? And he's like, if I was dead, could I do this? And he like waves his arms and stops the music. And I was like, yeah, that was, that's exactly some kind of shit that you would feel or think is like totally realistic while you're tripping. You'd be like, that makes sense. Damn. You would not be able to do that if you were dead. Wow.

That's fun.

You brought up Michael Pollan earlier. He's kind of having a little moment now. just came out and endorsed psychedelics. wow. there's a whole episode that just came out with Michael Pollan talking about the beneficial use of psychedelics.

think he had a Netflix series, too, a years ago, which I watched. Only the portion that was related to the movie, but I thought it was really good. I think it was a Netflix. They actually basically adapted his book into a series form. You should watch it. was really

Yeah, I think I'll have to go look for that. That sounds good.

Bryan (39:23.278)
What's that called again?

Just look up Michael Pollack Netflix series. I believe it was on Netflix.

Michael Pollan. Yeah, I think it's How to Change Your Mind. Michael Pollan, yeah.

They might have kept the same title of the book and they turned into a suit.

That's what I was thinking, something like that.

JR Sawyers (39:45.026)
They actually have footage of him being under, talking to shamans, all that stuff. It was really great.

Yeah, that's one thing I'd like us to eventually maybe do is cover a couple episodes, go to a shaman or a swat lodge, something, and experience that and kind of investigate that a little bit and then report back. So I think that'd be a lot of fun.

I would love to do an ayahuasca trip someday. I mean, that's so popular. I've never done that before.

Maybe we'll all have to get together and do ayahuasca.

Yeah. Is one of you a shaman?

Bryan (40:21.964)
I feel like, elite definitely for sure would be, he would have to be the step in Shaman.

As good to say if if I guess if anybody qualified there was a roast the other day. There was a bot roast. I looked up for my profile on the subreddit and it said you've been advocating for the responsible use of psychedelics for so long that you've become the poster boy for responsible use, which is just about as ironic as your vintage. Just say no collection. It's like, well, kind of is. And then it said.

You created the subreddit 16 years ago, which is practically ancient in internet years. So you're like the, what is it? How they, you're like the Gandalf of psychedelics only instead of fighting ball rags, you're fighting off blog spam and mold eating posts. So yeah, that's fairly kind of accurate. But so there's one of your biggest.

Takeaways out of this. What did the making this film teach you about psychedelics and human consciousness?

Ummm...

JR Sawyers (41:39.054)
I, you know.

Throughout the filming and even short the writing, I basically kept asking myself, how was it like when I was in the retreat? What was the things I was feeling? So in a way, throughout the filming, was reliving the retreat. And they say that about the music. One of the best things about that retreat was the music. They had this amazing playlist.

They have like a little light show on the ceiling. like, everybody was doing something different. I just kind of just lied down or I sat kind of meditate, just look at the lights, just listen to the music. And I asked for that playlist. And for like at least a couple of years after every time I play that playlist, I get a little bit of that sensation back. You know what mean? Even though I wasn't on the psychedelic, just hearing the music. So I guess the filmmaking itself was kind of like that too, because I kept trying to reach back.

Yeah.

Do you plan on continuing? I'm sorry. said, do you plan on continuing exploring these psychedelic themes further in any future works?

JR Sawyers (42:47.896)
Okay, I'm sorry.

JR Sawyers (42:57.362)
I could tell, mean, yeah, if the right idea comes along or if somebody hires me to do something, at the moment I'm working on a horror film, something a little bit more commercial. You know what the biggest challenge of this psychedelic film, filming it, was just trying to get money to make it. There was a couple of reasons why people wouldn't give me money to make it. First, were like, the people that want to watch the movie set in 2020, they kind of want to forget about it. And I was like, well,

By the time this thing will come out, be two, three years later, you know? But they were like, nah. And then the whole psychedelic thing, they were like, that sounds really interesting and all, but we're not sure about the commercial aspect of that, like if you have no stars. So I still wanted to make it so I used my own money and hopefully over time it'll find an audience. in the immediate future, I'm probably going to do something more.

commercial just because it opens you get the money but definitely very happy that I made this film because I also wanted to make it because I felt like there was a void there this kind of film.

As good as you know.

My question you know because like It almost seemed like the only way to make this movie is if you make it more of a comedy more of a party movie

3L1T3 (44:16.398)
So if anybody watches it and they wanted to explore any psychedelics or anything, would there be any advice that you might give to them or?

Like you mentioned earlier, I would say if you're going to do it, do it with people that you trust, like a really good setting and potentially somebody who has a lot of experience with it so they can guide you through it. I mean, if you got the money, you should definitely do something more like what I did, like a psychoanalyst. In LA, it was like 400 bucks, but I'm sure

in other places of the world, it could be a lot cheaper. mean, or even just go to South America. Just have like a guide, an experienced guide, you know, help you with it. And then setting is really important. I prefer psilocybin, but maybe I can't, you know, I've never done ayahuasca, so I can't really compare the two. But I definitely, when I did the DMT that you mentioned earlier, I did not like that at all.

Like, I don't feel like that's right for a beginner, maybe. Again, I'm not that much of an expert. But I think if you're beginner, I school assignment is a little bit more of gentle way to go.

Yeah, MDMA is a real gentle one for your first time too, I feel like. Yeah, you don't, it can be a little rough on your stomach, but a little ginger root. I like candy ginger for that a lot. Chew on some of that a little bit.

JR Sawyers (45:51.448)
There's also, I should also mention one thing that this guy did, the one who ran the retreat. He told us to buy a certain supplement. Because one thing is true, is it serotonin or dopamine? I don't know, but the levels lower quite a bit, right? So especially after a night like this where you're taking so much of it, it's,

So I use something called SAM-E. It's a that you can get at Vitamin Shop. And it helps elevate those levels back up. Because it's like, when you do psychedelics, it goes up a lot, right? Like it peaked. And then after a certain point, it has to go back down a baseline. And it'll probably go even beyond that. So you need something to of level it out. So I would definitely recommend that, too.

Gotcha. I was going to say, think there's 5HTP, maybe?

That's the thing I was thinking of. Yes, 5-HTP. That's 5-HTP. Immediately after that recession, I went to the vitamin shop and bought it. It definitely helped.

Yeah, 5HTB.

3L1T3 (47:00.814)
Yeah, it's really good for serotonin sickness, especially after a big depletion like a rave or a festival.

So are you allowed to share any details about your new project, this horror film that you're working on?

So I love making movies that involve psychology, know, just like I like movies that really make you think a lot after it's done. I love Christopher Nolan films for that reason. Some of my favorites like Taxi Driver, a lot of character stuff, which is what drew me to a movie about psychedelics. So this next movie is a horror film, but it's about

a psychiatrist that gets basically possessed. And how does a psychiatrist feel?

Yeah, because they're supposed to be like super logical and this would be an illness not a reality.

JR Sawyers (47:54.572)
Is that?

JR Sawyers (47:58.636)
Yeah, exactly or like like like maybe he could outsmart the demon somehow, you yeah, but like but also play with like what is evil? know what mean? Like what? I'm like trying to play with a lot of themes and It's fun. You know, it's like I can't pay my bills yet with these movies, but it's definitely fun making them

How many films have you produced now? I took a brief glance at your IMDB and it looked like you've made several so far.

Three future films and then I at one point I produced a talk show. It's made a few short films and

Yeah, I've acted quite a bit in the past. Now I mostly just act in my own stuff. mean, so the whole reason why I acted in my last film was I was supposed to have like a really tiny part. But then the guy who played Lenny in the movie, the other male actor who who wound up being awake all the time, he was supposed to play my character. But when I saw him audition, he was so funny. And I was like, you know what?

He's going to do a way better job with my character than I am. So I told him, like, do you want to play my part? And he's like, no, your part's too tiny. So I was like, that's OK. I'm going to make it bigger, and I'll make it funnier. And that's what he did. And then I played the serious part that he had auditioned for, because I was feeling that way anyways. I was feeling more an adjated personality.

3L1T3 (49:30.382)
Yeah, that first kind of, I to say he was just fed up with people. I think that was one of the first. was like, yeah, I kind of get that. Right. So have you received any feedback from people, other people connected with the film that just kind of really resonated with you?

percent have been there before.

JR Sawyers (49:52.77)
So, I mean, the reception was really great. When it first premiered at the Barcelona, I'm sorry, the Love and Hope International Film Festival, was in Barcelona. And people were coming up to me and just saying really, really nice things. They were comparing it to a movie like Everything Everywhere All At Once, which kind of has similar themes and is actually kind of a psychedelic film in a of ways. And if you think about it,

Like the mother in that movie goes through a similar transfer. Like she has a very sad mind. So her brain just opens up throughout the movie. And I wonder if the filmmakers, if that was their intention.

Have you ever seen anything that the Daniels, I think is what they go by, have ever seen anything else they've done?

Yeah, they didn't they make this movie with the Harry Potter guy before this?

Swiss Army, man. Yeah, that was pretty good.

JR Sawyers (50:50.574)
I thought that was really good, but I've been in everything everywhere once. That was a top 20 film.

Yeah, that's a that's a great one. I'm gonna they had this little short on YouTube I sometimes show people that are interested in, know psychedelics I'm like you want to see something little nuts and it's called interesting ball and it's just these little Yeah, just these little short like stories that all kind of converge into this and very psychedelic kind of unifying sense of this is what we are This is who we are. And yeah, you'd probably like it. I think you would see them

Yeah. Is there anything you wish more people understood about psychedelics or?

I'm gonna write that down.

JR Sawyers (51:37.39)
I mean, like I said before, it's a trend that I think is just going to get worse mental illness. despite where you fall in the politics, I remember in 2020 when they said people have to stay home, remember like, oh, humans need to be around other people. I was worried that this was going to accelerate.

things that were already happening in terms of depression and anxiety. And I think that's very much, it doesn't show up in data as much as say heart attacks, you know what mean? But I think there's a lot of people who are going through it. And this is the solution. And then not only that, but also to build empathy in a world that I feel like is losing empathy.

Yeah, we've talked about that several times with a few of the guests how there's just a worldwide pandemic, a silent pandemic of trauma through the world. So yeah, I think that's a really great point of just how, you know...

Just being, you know, even just bringing this, the awareness and kind of like as your film does, you know, brings this, just can kind of show people that, you know, it's normal, it's okay. You you might, you buy the ticket, you take the ride, you're gonna have fun or, you know, it might be a little crazy for a few hours, but everything kind of, it'll come back and you'll be fine. And, you know.

Yeah, and they mean like I I honestly have never had you know, it's easy for me to say like, you know Bad trip or good trip like like you learn something because I've honestly I've never had a bad trip and I tried I try to take the the heroic dose, know But Having said that I do think some people like they really need that guide, you know, like that like

JR Sawyers (53:33.454)
And they may not be able to handle, I mean, it's still very, very powerful. that would be my advice. The most important part to like, you know, definitely the setting and the intention.

Yeah, set, setting, intention, think integration, those are, I mean, those are always your, your kind of your foundation of any good, you know, psychedelic trip, I guess, good headset mindset, you know, setting who you've got around you includes that where you're at.

and adding that integration afterwards and having a helpline or a sitter, which actually kind of was kind of cool what I liked. Now even more that you bring it up that I realized that Blenny was there kind of as a sitter the whole time, which is always great to have.

Point, that's really your point. I'll also make another point. So I have a bit of a type A personality and one of my fears was that I try to fight it. And that's one thing that I learned that it's to let go. Because if you're in this session,

And you basically try to resist it. That's when things can go haywire, in a way. I mean, even there, could be something good about that. that was something that I had to learn.

Bryan (55:02.158)
Yeah.

And I just, you know, letting go.

Yeah, that's, that's a good important lesson for all of us. Sometimes it's just, you kind of, you know, I, don't really pay attention much to it anymore, but I used to do the, I still remember it, the serenity prayer from back in the day. you know, just grant me the serenity and not to accept the things I can change and the courage to change the things I can. And even if I'm not, you know, practicing the sobriety or whatever, as I used to, I still, you know, lot of things you can just let go, don't have control of it.

And psychedelics is probably the biggest kind of teacher of that lesson. A lot of times you can't control that sometimes. So and that's a lot of times what causes a lot of the issues. Sorry, is the trying to control that when, you know, the LSD or the MDMA is going to be like, no, I'm in control this time. got you. So.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Like you said, it applies to life.

3L1T3 (56:10.422)
Right. Well, I don't think I got any more questions for you, Brian. You got anything?

So yeah, JR again, thank you for coming to talk with us tonight. Where can people go and watch Trip Elsewhere?

So yeah, you can watch the trip elsewhere on several channels. At the moment, Apple Prime. I'm sorry, Apple Plus, Amazon Prime, Tubi, and I believe it just got on the Roku channel.

Excellent.

So you want to watch for free or watch it for free on to be in Roku and then Amazon and I think it's like 299 right now

3L1T3 (56:48.462)
Yeah, it was a great movie and I'm glad you're it, you know, like I said, I he'd or as Brian had said I don't know if anybody would or if I'd really come across today because you know, I'm kind of a stickler for for what psychedelic films a lot of the visuals but After watching and kind of understanding I was like, wow, I totally see what you're getting. So what you're doing with it So yeah, it's totally going on my recommendation list for people

Absolutely.

I appreciate it. Thanks guys.

3L1T3 (58:05.55)
So

3L1T3 (58:37.326)
you

3L1T3 (58:51.966)
you

3L1T3 (58:59.758)
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3L1T3 (59:10.376)
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3L1T3 (01:02:02.67)
Alright guys, so that was our interview with JR Sawyers, the director and played in that movie, Trip Elsewhere.

Yeah, that was a really great time. I did not realize I was gonna have such a fun time watching this film and then also getting to speak to the director. was fantastic.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. He really brought a lot of good insights into the movie making and yeah.

Well, yes, and there's some really powerful performances later on in the film, especially during the psychedelic experience that he just, we've already talked about it a bunch in the film. And if you watch the promo video that JR made, you'll see some of those scenes. I highly recommend that you go and watch the film.

Right, right. Like when I first saw the trailer I was like, you know, but then as I watched it it really just I mean, yeah It has some really, you know emotional touching parts to it, but it also has that message to it. So yes

Bryan (01:03:00.09)
Dude, there's one thing that he did in the film that I forgot to mention that I was like, no, this is definitely like, is really, really captured what it's like to trip is when he's, he says he's got a bell to protect him from bears. He's like, this is my bear bell or something. And it's like, you're just in somebody's apartment. where the tripping so hard, you're like, I need a bell.

Gotta have this bell for the Bears over there to me. Yeah bear bells. Everybody knows So yeah, it was it was a really good it was it was a really good conversation I thought it was such a good conversation almost by the end. We almost forgot we were talking about the movie We're just all just kind of joking around and having fun. It was awesome. yeah

So where did he say that you could watch it again? It's on Amazon Prime, it's on Tubi if you want to watch it for free.

Apple TV. Yeah, it's a good movie. I'd recommend it. You got to go into it. Also, one thing, it's almost like an Alice in Wonderland type movie. Yeah. kind of down the looking glass.

That's right.

3L1T3 (01:04:05.902)
You know, if you keep that in mind that it's not meant to represent an exact trip and it's kind of an Alice in Wonderland type trip, it really makes it a lot more compelling of a story. So yeah, the music tonight, that's Future Bugs. I think I forgot to mention it last time, but man, you guys check them out on SoundCloud.

anywhere else YouTube, future books and you guys join us patreon.com Divergent States. We're heading to Denver in June, so we're going to need the help and support on that. you know, subscribe on YouTube, hit us on, you know, Spotify, Apple, wherever you listen to your podcast and, you know, hopefully we'll talk to you guys next time.

Yeah, see you guys then.

you