ETEREO: What No One Tells You About Iboga Work

Iboga has a reputation.

It’s intense. It’s long. It carries real risk. And for some people, it’s life-changing.

But what actually happens inside a retreat container? And what does this work look like behind the scenes?

In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Paije West and Fletcher Burdick, founders of ETEREO, an iboga retreat center in Baja, Mexico. Their approach sits somewhere between medical oversight and traditional ceremony, which opens up some thoughtful questions about safety, responsibility, integration, and how we talk about powerful medicines without turning them into mythology.

This isn’t a hype piece.

It’s a grounded conversation about:

• The difference between iboga and ibogaine
 • Cardiac risk and how they screen for it
 • Why they sometimes say “no”
 • What ceremony actually does (beyond aesthetics)
 • Whether luxury retreat settings help or distract
 • Why integration matters more than most people think
 • And whether the field might be moving a little too fast

We talk about neuroplasticity, structure vs freedom, tradition vs extraction, and what’s still unknown about iboga.

If you’re curious about the medicine — or about how people try to hold it responsibly — this one’s worth your time.

The extended, more personal segment continues on Patreon.

Chapter Markers

00:00 – Introducing Bryan & Why This Conversation Matters
 02:00 – Framing the Episode: No Miracle Claims
 03:15 – What ETEREO Is (In Plain Language)
 07:00 – What an Iboga Retreat Looks Like
 11:20 – Iboga vs Ibogaine
 14:30 – Ceremony: Structure, Not Symbolism
 16:30 – Neuroplasticity & Set and Setting
 17:40 – Who Iboga Is Not For
 21:30 – Safety & Medical Screening
 24:30 – Small Groups vs High-Volume Clinics
 25:30 – “Conscious Luxury” — Does It Help?
 29:00 – Stepping Away from the Real World
 30:00 – Why Integration Is Everything
 32:00 – Relational Healing
 35:00 – Why They Don’t Track Outcomes Like Clinics
 36:10 – Incentives & Avoiding Extraction
 39:10 – Is the Field Moving Too Fast?
 40:00 – What We Still Don’t Know About Iboga
 41:30 – Final Reflections
 42:00 – Patreon Segment Tease
 44:50 – Closing Thoughts

 🎧 Extended version available on Patreon
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Transcript

speaker-0 (00:15.374)
Welcome back to Divergent States. I'm Lee, your host, back with Brian. How's it going, man? Not a lot. Before we jump in, I kind of want to properly introduce you again for season two. Brian is a U.S. Marine Corps vet. He's not here as a psychedelic evangelist or expert at altered states. He's here because he's curious. He cares about people and he's willing to ask the questions that matter when things get complicated. That perspective is important, especially in conversations like this.

Hey, what's up man?

speaker-0 (00:43.938)
Because a lot of the harm reduction doesn't come from bad intentions, it comes from unexamined assumptions. So today's guests are Paige West and Fletcher Burdick, founders of Atterio Baja. They work with Iboga in a space that sits between medical oversight and ceremonial practice. That overlap raises real questions about safety, responsibility, integration, and how we talk about powerful tools without turning them into mythology.

This isn't a conversation about miracle cures. It's about where systems fail, when people sometimes find relief, and what still deserves skepticism. So just remember, we're not here to sell iboga for a retreat or a miracle cure. We're here to look honestly at what addiction treatment gets wrong, what iboga might actually be doing, and what worries we should have about the growing luxury retreat model. So let's get to it.

speaker-1 (01:42.532)
you

We're to go crackin' city

speaker-0 (03:08.29)
Hey guys, welcome back. We're with the Ethereum founders, Paige and Fletcher. How are you guys doing?

Great. Happy to be here.

Great, thanks.

You're welcome. Yeah, they work with iboga and ibogaine and a space that sits between medical oversight and ceremonial pragmas. To me, that overlap raises real questions about safety, responsibility, integration, and how we talk about these powerful tools without turning them into mythology. So it's not really a conversation about miracle cures. It's about where systems fail, where people sometimes find relief, and what still deserves skepticism.

So if you were going to describe a terio to me in one sentence that didn't really sound like marketing copy, what would you say about that?

speaker-2 (03:53.346)
We are an experiential that focuses on.

Treat Center is on ceremony, ritual, and tradition, along with being bridge people to honor the Western mind experience and nervous.

system.

Okay, nice. So, and like, so how does it, what does it mean in practice? Like what happens on to someone say day one, day three, and maybe six months later?

Sure. So if our focus now is to talk about Ebola, so just to clarify, actually

speaker-3 (04:25.069)
now.

speaker-3 (04:28.46)
We don't offer Ibogaine. We offer Iboga. Your listeners and community might know that Ibogaine is present in Iboga. Iboga is a root bark that has many alkaloids that really work in a powerful symbiosis. Ibogaine is an isolated, generally semi-synthetic. And so what we work

Okay.

we only spoke about.

or rather

speaker-2 (04:41.229)
is the full.

speaker-2 (04:47.672)
Yes.

speaker-2 (04:55.428)
is with the whole bark.

group and our eboga dates and sessions are primarily eight day containers and we have preparation that includes medical screening and a pretty in depth person and body. So day one.

retreat.

speaker-2 (05:06.52)
with prep.

speaker-2 (05:13.228)
review of the whole.

speaker-2 (05:18.612)
Let's see, yeah. Or like when you first made contact with us or where do we start?

So day one, you do kind of a workup on who they are and what they're coming in for. So then say like day three, like go a little down the road, what happens?

Sure, so people arrive to us as I said after.

significant preparation and we really work from all levels of perception, right? The physical, emotional, mental and spiritual. And you arrive to us being medically with an EKG and blood work at the condition of your kidneys. And you arrive here in beautiful Todos Santos, Mexico, which is

cleared with

speaker-2 (05:57.71)
to look liver electrolytes etc.

speaker-2 (06:08.928)
at the very.

southern tip of the Baja Peninsula. And it is a environment. It's a ceremony forward, tradition forward environment. And we really appreciate the medicine and the Witi tradition as the primary perspective and

retreat.

speaker-2 (06:20.531)
work with

speaker-2 (06:29.57)
Yeah, that's really where we draw the work.

from and then we bring in some of those Western medical and therapeutic frameworks to support. So, you know, day one is a settling in a welcome dinner with our wonderful.

private chef, chef Paul, he's a star.

He specializes in fermentation. Shout out to Scott Ball. And then on day two, that's when we start really preparing for the medicine and we ask to bring questions about their life. And those questions can be past, present, future. They can be spiritual, everything in between. And we work one-on-one with folks, you know,

for sure.

speaker-2 (06:58.51)
actually.

speaker-2 (07:03.901)
our guests.

speaker-2 (07:11.854)
practical or

speaker-3 (07:20.192)
with their intentions, with their questions, with their, you know, desire, with their joy and suffering and kind of everything in between. And we start ceremony that evening. We offer magnesium IVs, which are all adopted from Ibogaine Clinic, supports health and really whole body health, nervous system, et cetera. And we have medical supervision in the

all of the

speaker-2 (07:33.546)
which is a protocol.

really support cardiac.

speaker-2 (07:48.286)
spaces we essentially have every planet has outside

Every single thing and I began to provide a continuous heart monitor.

And so we start.

ceremony in the night by fire and everyone, yeah, in the process. And eventually everyone sort of goes into a temple like environment. And then you said day, day, is a tender day in Ibogaine clinics. It's often rich for a day. I also know a lot.

comes in really trusting.

speaker-2 (08:15.0)
Day three

speaker-2 (08:21.582)
referred to as the gray day. A of Ebola providers that call it the discovery.

every day, we kind of fall in between those. And it's.

to those two ideas. Recovery Day, it's a day where you're still really.

with the medicine and it's a time of tenderness and introspection. You might still be in a visionary state. When you take if you're reborn and so.

the Bwiti say that it's as if.

speaker-2 (08:50.68)
We sort of take care of our guests. We all do sort of.

check-ins by the hour in between sleep, because the whole team is up all night. And yeah, we bring them electric lights, broth and fruit and check-in and really allow them to be in their process.

blocks.

speaker-2 (09:02.424)
Dr. Larson.

speaker-0 (09:11.182)
You guys talk, sometimes it's not to me, you talk about integration a lot. So I assume that after all this, that's where the integration starts to begin. What does that look like for a patient?

So, Ebo guys, incredibly.

an incredible long acting medicine. can last 30 minutes and we do we

to 36 hours.

Yes.

speaker-1 (09:34.528)
It's a marathon, for sure. You better be ready. Yeah, that's a long haul.

yeah. It's a long haul for sure. And so just like the...

The medicine journey itself, long creation is really long as well. And of course we immediate integration within the retreat container. We have a wonderful named Violet who is a licensed social worker. She specializes in internal family systems. And so we worked, you know, again, the tradition and the ceremony with

you have that.

speaker-2 (09:57.198)
lead therapist.

or specializing.

support.

speaker-2 (10:09.868)
with Parts Work or IFS is

And that again, sort of that immediate integration where we are offering kind of tools and frameworks and modalities that they can take home with them and sort of We also have a pretty open integration calls are included in retreat. It's never like this add on thing where, you know, it's just to chain to chain for people.

of seek out. Yeah, although you know, we indoor policy. In the room. Like

speaker-2 (10:37.166)
So it's really part of the whole process.

and so we take calls and then we also understand our limits and we have really a wide network that we can support our guests with longer-term regular integration work. You know, that might be a therapist, that might be a coach, that might be a somatic practitioner, and I think also

Those are beautiful referrals.

should they seek a

speaker-2 (11:05.91)
lot of the prep.

prep work, it's really book-ended. The whole experience is book-ended by the prep and the integration. And so really preparing people can also be a smoother integration process.

also provide

speaker-0 (11:24.568)
Yeah, so kind of going back what we were talking earlier, you guys don't offer the iboga. You draw the line between ibogaine as an interrupter and iboga as interrogation. What does that look like in practice?

So it's actually the inverse.

Cheers!

Yeah. okay. bad. Sorry about that.

So we offer.

speaker-3 (11:46.016)
epoga as opposed to ibogaine. And, you know, we work the clinical environments and that set and setting is the right choice for for many people. You know, I have a background in birth work. It reminds me a little bit of, you know, a family choosing to have a home birth or choosing to have a hospital birth and birth of

to really support.

speaker-2 (11:54.392)
page.

speaker-2 (12:00.512)
So.

speaker-2 (12:06.958)
If you have a home, you still have

emergency protocols and you still have oxygen and you still have IV support and all of those things. It's just a different space and container that you are crossing this threshold.

with.

Yeah, mean, both very much have their place and serve different purposes and both have their blind spots as well. I think what the clinical model and Ibogaine Clinics in particular are doing really well are providing that strong structure of safety. structure on its own really protects people physiologically and psychologically.

But what it doesn't do is give them a map, you know, and context is what makes an experience intelligible, you know, and when you go to Peru for an initiation or a ceremony or when you go to Gabon to be initiated with the the Bwiti or Experienciboga, that context is really provided through story, through lineage.

speaker-1 (13:21.006)
place and community. The land. Yeah, and the land. And you know, those aren't extras. Those are the interpretive frames. And without them, people can leave these experiences and really struggle to integrate what just happened because they don't have the framework to make sense of it. So.

Yeah, I mean, this is why it's really important to honor lineage, create partnerships in that regard, and to really integrate story and ritual and just honor how the medicine is held traditionally, because that context is what gives meaning and meaning is what allows for a transformative experience to be translated into a transformed life.

Cool.

That was kind of a tongue twister. Essentially like you guys, know, not unlike the other clinics, you're still providing some of the same features, but more focused on like the wholesome overall effect and maybe more the spirituality side of it.

Yes, I would say that's true and we have all of the safety

speaker-3 (14:36.018)
And it's a foundation of safety. It's guardian of safety. It's like implied, you know, and you have to have structure. but you have to flow within that structure. yeah.

Yeah, I mean, on the other end of that, know, in the ceremonial space, what I think some people miss is that the ceremony is not just a symbolic structure. You know, it's highly functional. And in these indigenous ceremonial traditions, ceremony has built-in protocols for pacing, protection, and communal presence.

you know, I realized to the untrained eye, those things can seem kind of vague, but, they are there. And, know, when you remove those elements, you're creating a space where these experiences can become destabilizing. you know, because a medicine that opens somebody up without providing them the, the structural container or, or scaffolding to support them before, during, and after, that is not healing.

you know, that is just exposure, and exposure without support is where a lot of harm can be done in this space. Well, I see what you're saying there, especially about ceremony, because I think even if you've just been to church, you understand there's ceremony to it, right? Like you said, pacing, structure, the you're supposed to say something, and that is pretty common, I would think, even if you're just talking about like meditation all the way to...

tribal ceremonies and things like that. I can really see the value of it. I don't remember any of the neuroscience or like terminology or like the parts of the brain that actually are activated. I think it's been proven that ceremony and prayer and things like that, regardless of where that's aimed at, it activates a specific part of your brain. So.

speaker-0 (16:36.61)
Yeah, I think there was a paper that came out kind of on the more of the clinical side of this, but recently they're talking about how I think with large doses of psilocybin, how it rewires the brain. It opens up this plasticity window. And it's not just a microdose, it's the full on museum dose. And it kind of goes along with what you're talking about is that set and setting within that plasticity window. That's really what gets hardwired in.

Yeah.

So do you think there are like, are there any more risks that are higher in a ceremonial setting compared to the medicinal one or medical one?

speaker-2 (17:20.022)
I think that some people certainly would feel safe in medicalized setting.

benefit or for in a clinical setting and and that's okay in our screening.

process, you know, we have relationships with fellow clinics and we often refer out. think that Ibogaine clinics really, there is, there has been quite a few detoxes. That is certainly tricky territory. Maybe more beneficial for people who are

I begin.

speaker-3 (17:41.984)
as of now are.

then focus on OBS and

and it may benefit are undergoing a physical detox.

acute withdrawal to get in a more medical framework. That being said, we do work with people with substance use issues. have a

to be.

speaker-3 (18:11.384)
different protocol and a specific working with them also won't have a seven people detoxing from a combined community with all different types of intentions. Whereas they do find that Ibogaine clinics will often you know, but often the type of clientele receiving although

way of working. We also treat with students, it will be community of people.

speaker-2 (18:30.338)
That is, of course, people seek out both I Voga for a wide variety of reasons.

I began at any point.

Okay, that kind of leads me to my next question, which is like, so who exactly do you turn away?

Mm-hmm.

Well, those who have a pre-existent heart can do

speaker-3 (18:51.918)
heart conditions, arrhythmias and other types of heart conditions. So iboga and ibogaine has the ability to prolong the heart rate. And so it's very important that someone coming to us has

QT and a roll of.

speaker-2 (19:07.342)
a strong and healthy heart. are health issues that we not accept.

There are certain mental health issues that you know not and it may be a no not right now and it may be a full red light.

of

Those who have liver or kidney issues because eboga is metabolized through

the liver and it's metabolized as norivagaine. It's quite taxing on the liver and that norivagaine actually stays in the body for a few months. And so when you're speaking about, you know, neuroplasticity, norivagaine, ivagaine, you know, has this ability to have this prolonged neuroplasticity.

speaker-2 (19:39.118)
I began to stay for 30 plus days.

speaker-2 (19:46.638)
plasticity, eboga.

speaker-2 (19:56.684)
which is quite powerful. but yeah, so people that sort of fall into those categories. Yeah, you know, preparation and readiness, I think is incredibly nuanced. It's not only the physical body and the medical contraindications, although a long list that need to taper off a and their own provider prior to coming to us.

And then, yeah.

speaker-3 (20:07.916)
new one?

speaker-3 (20:12.878)
So, you know, there's certainly a lot of medications that, you know, people under the care of their own medical

Our medical, the person who does our medical reviews actually found a pharmacist so she can really provide a lot of on how to support people.

actually has a background in as a.

lot of education and resources.

speaker-3 (20:40.851)
And yeah.

Yeah, I think there's also the ability to to f**k women, to a spiritual f**k, of illness, although I will say many people who have been Boga have many modalities and they may be at of the road.

who come to eBay often tried many.

you know, sort of at the end and feeling like a hint of desperation. I've certainly seen that and you know,

tricky and important because somebody thinking that this is going to cure.

speaker-3 (21:10.932)
coming to us hear them or fix them you know Fletcher spoke of initiations right indigenous initiations you think of

But that word, it's the start.

of something you're initiating something it's it's a doorway and a threshold that you're walking through and there's a there's a long road and path after that.

or when.

speaker-0 (21:31.679)
So would you say you're more cautious than medical clinics or less?

speaker-3 (21:38.007)
You know?

I think equally. think equally. Equally is cautious for sure.

It.

I would agree.

All right.

speaker-1 (21:47.854)
we definitely don't throw around the words healed or cured or you know, for sure.

Curious addiction. Tricky, tricky stuff.

Right. Yeah, I just like, I wonder, because you know, the cardiac risk, as you talked about with iboga is real. How do you mitigate it differently than most clinics?

Hmm. So we have a doctor. We. Is I believe most clinics have.

site have nurses

speaker-3 (22:21.366)
you know, medical professional there as well.

As I said, we look at the EKG, do vitals checks, as I shared, we do heart monitoring. Even if there's a red flag or a yellow flag,

we do.

needed do not have continuous harm. So if someone is flagged even it's just no is a complete sentence and it's very good and we're not afraid to say no. So I think again the preparation and and the blood work and the the reviewing and the assessing there's a lot of room in the

sacred.

speaker-2 (22:56.334)
prior really offer risk mitigation space. actually have a relationship with the local here and happily sit outside of our.

Bomberos in Toto Santa, their first responders and firefighters.

sessions and wait to be called in case of emergency. if any other clinical or ceremonial environment that has a first responder within minutes as to potentially having to drive somewhere. also have the defibrillator and AED had a medical event. that's good. Yeah.

See,

have a first.

speaker-2 (23:22.862)
post.

to.

speaker-1 (23:32.792)
I was just telling myself like how much would that suck if you had a heart attack while you were drippin'

Yeah.

Yeah.

speaker-3 (23:44.556)
You know, these people are coming and trusting us with lives. So again, we are not afraid to say no. you know, we, so one of the differences too, that I see, and different doesn't mean better or worse. It just means different. We are a boutique experience. We talking about pacing, you know, our retreat calendar is not jam packed.

really offer a boutique experience with us.

speaker-2 (24:01.56)
We offer have.

speaker-2 (24:09.89)
we do about four to five or six iboga retreats a

year, you know, we are not opening, we're not a revolving door of people coming through and the panic of needing to fill beds or any of that. It's, we have offerings at Whatshuma and 5MeO DMT, three medicines that we offer. so for, you know, the medicine, for those who come to us, we want to, and sustainability.

you

other on that video so we also offer t those are

speaker-2 (24:35.916)
out of respect for those.

just the study of the medicine.

The sustainability of our team, you know, we have spaciousness between each retreat and we really take our time in curating these retreats and bringing the right people in. It's never like, okay, like take anyone, you know.

people together.

like few spots left, let's just like.

speaker-1 (25:01.75)
keep the grips small and intimate, know, never going into double digits. You know, you see these ceremonies with 20, 30 people and you're like, whoa. I feel like they'd be tough to manage.

Yeah. Right. It's interesting you brought up the boutique experience because you guys describe Atterio as a conscious luxury. So do you think that the luxury makes Iboga safer or does it risk turning serious medicine into a boutique experience? Excuse me.

I think that's such a great question. That's a really, really great question. We are the type of people who have a lot of So I can go to...

question.

and

speaker-3 (25:40.62)
lot of range. And to Gabon and be, you know, in dirt and in an initiation and, you know, drinking water for a and having a really intense experience. Fletcher is the same with his Kyoto initiations in Peru. And I certainly enjoy comforts and a physically pleasing experience and

in

speaker-2 (25:51.446)
you know not for a week.

speaker-2 (26:05.378)
beautiful aesthetic.

speaker-2 (26:09.61)
We have actually multiple. So our. Boga retreats are. Provided. Most.

offerings for eight days.

often provided in a luxury container and we have 24 acres of land that's been in the area in the desert and it is kind of a glamping style so it's much more rustic and more stripped down. And I think that one has

also have that we are developing.

speaker-2 (26:35.284)
experience.

I think that both are valuable.

speaker-2 (26:47.34)
I guess a broad.

or opening for certain types of people and another is for a very

specific type of person. Iboga is very physically demanding.

very demanding. It is on the body as they shared.

And so if we are.

speaker-1 (27:06.51)
mentally, spiritually, on all levels.

Yes. if we take away some of the need for physical for those sort of basic

It can be quite intense.

speaker-3 (27:16.68)
comfort and those needs and maybe even more are taken care of.

people really have this ability to go deep.

So would you say the comfort is more therapeutic or is it just aesthetic?

I would say it's therapeutic. I find it to be therapeutic. It's very, you know, questioning about the space and people are pretty serious.

rare that somebody comes to us, you know, with a lot of questions about accommodations, people are when they come to us, you know.

speaker-0 (27:48.75)
Well, that's good. Yeah, I wonder if they had the exact same protocol, say, in just more modest setting. Do you think the outcomes would be worse or better or the same?

Well, we just hosted

seven people on our lands. Everyone was in tents, there was hot shower and a bathroom. Living in your exposed elements. you know, as resistance to witnessing some of the discomfort. And that was from an internal perspective. Everyone who came to this retreat,

There is a hot, but it is outdoor.

speaker-2 (28:13.339)
I the provider, I experienced to.

speaker-3 (28:27.682)
consented to the experience. They knew that they were going to be in a camping environment. The difference and how, and how when you are maybe a modest setting, but this particular setting, you are in a beautiful natural setting and the nature immersion is its own aesthetic, its own form of luxury. And it really holds the space. So we're going to go modest and rustic.

but we really saw.

powerful it is.

really beautiful.

speaker-2 (28:49.378)
It's

hole.

speaker-3 (28:57.07)
We want the, you know, Mother Earth.

to be the aesthetic piece.

Do you think there's a risk that insulation from the real world there though delays some of the harder work that people need to get done?

speaker-2 (29:13.678)
Well, I think people are going to a retreat. They know that it is a is it is just.

the

Yeah.

speaker-3 (29:22.382)
They are taking a pause from the busyness and the fullness and the intensity.

you

Yeah, I mean, think on the contrary, actually, it does give you that space and allow you to really drop in and be with your intentions for why you're there without those distractions of...

of to-do lists and parenting and work and all of these.

things take this moment and much of the time people are excited to get back to their life and implement what they have learned.

speaker-2 (29:50.776)
People are very.

speaker-0 (29:58.38)
makes sense, kind of gives them little more perspective being away. Nice. So yeah, you guys argue integration is where a lot of clinics fail. What do you guys do specifically that's different? And how do you gauge to see how that works?

Mm-hmm.

speaker-2 (30:17.464)
We are very case- It's not a one size fits It's just not a one size fits all. I think that each person that comes to us has a wide variety of

case in our work.

It's all thanks.

speaker-3 (30:28.576)
and that.

variety of intentions, know, Fletcher, his substance use. And so he was who come to us. Those those types of intentions.

has a history of abuse issues.

speaker-2 (30:47.202)
What have you seen in particularly that demographic to be incredibly beneficial? I'm trying to think.

Yeah, in particular with the addiction demographic. mean, in general, integration, feel like, has become this complex idea. we have a tendency as humans to overcomplicate things. so I think if you can check the few boxes of tending to your...

emotional state, getting outside and touching the earth and having somebody in your sphere that you can practice relational presence with. And what I mean by relational presence is that someone's experience is witnessed, not just interpreted, and then it's reflected back to them. They're not just in their own head.

And then it's integrated in relationship, you know, so, you know, they're not just left to their own devices and processing in isolation because, you know, human nervous systems don't stabilize in ideas, you know, they stabilize in relationship.

Absolutely.

speaker-0 (32:02.176)
Right, this is great by the way, it reminds me, you guys heard Mexico, to hear all the sounds around the back, it's awesome.

I know.

I'm sorry, I hope it's okay for the pod, but yeah.

Yeah, I'm enjoying it. I'm actually enjoying it. I'm just like putting me in the setting. I'm like, man, kind of feel like I'm there with it. So do you guys like track the outcomes with integration?

Yeah, gum is your...

speaker-2 (32:27.552)
Again, mean, that's such, it's, it is hard to quantify. We have such an open policy.

It's a little hard to quantify.

mean, we are in communication with us and you know,

all of our retreat.

We have WhatsApp groups that are.

speaker-3 (32:45.866)
you know, constantly firing off with treat groups. have a wonderful team of integration specialists.

these retreats.

speaker-2 (32:52.662)
that we sort of pair people up with. And I think also with, mean, going back to that idea of all of these ways that we need to, like the physical, somebody might come in with a TBI or DTI,

tend to ourselves like.

I come in, you

Toxing or autoimmune issues or tracking and connecting with them on those things and how those are connected to their emotional sphere their mental sphere, know, another person may come in with trauma family of Jen and yeah, I mean Stay connected. We really stay connected. And again, a network for longer term support I mean that being said

And so we're.

speaker-2 (33:27.63)
around or in we just

speaker-2 (33:36.044)
a referral or if it's people text us a year later to you mean we stay for years really

or you know six months later in contact with people.

Do you guys use any standardized measures for depressions or cravings or trauma or anything like that?

Honest. Those things.

Honestly we don't. We have considered doing things but frankly...

speaker-2 (34:02.254)
We're busy and we want to, I mean, I can see why that data is super useful. So have real relationships with

and important and we all have with these people and feeling it and knowing it and maintaining that connection, you know.

And then again to what Fletcher said that this idea.

relational healing. You know, of our preparation process, we confirm that people have that they can work, you know, we have a lot of people who come to us and like, you know, step community, a or NA and they're like, well, my life would tell me that I start my day, I sat with this medicine and you know, so we'll match someone up with them with an integration.

Part of the is we have a community to speak to about this work.

speaker-2 (34:37.718)
of studies.

So many people tell me that I would have to read sober because I.

who had a that had a history and understanding of 12 stuff. No, it's again, protocol people. It's very case-based.

up. you know, it's really not big.

speaker-3 (35:01.698)
by case and it's so deeply nuanced. And of course there's certain foundations and structures to draw from.

and of course.

speaker-0 (35:09.422)
really nice. Do you do any follow-up data for like, say, six months out or 12 months out?

speaker-3 (35:18.638)
Mmm, I mean...

wouldn't say, I mean we have spreadsheets that we...

like it's and things that drop in, but I wouldn't say it's anything that, that we can, you know, that we're tracking if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Like we're not, we're not looking at like outcomes and like, in, that way, it's more personal.

collective.

speaker-0 (35:43.658)
anecdotal than anything. That's nice. mean, as you said, you guys get, you you stay in contact for, you know, months and years at times. So I guess that makes sense. Michael Alfano's story in your brief talks about incentives and pharma. Are retreat centers also part of that new incentive structure?

It's exactly. It's anecdotal.

Thank

speaker-3 (36:11.342)
No. No. No.

I was like confused there, that one stumped me.

All right. So, so what keeps you from becoming the next version of the same system that you've been critiquing?

speaker-2 (36:30.03)
Hmm. I mean, are we, I think we're,

don't know that we're critiquing, we're just doing it our own way. we are based on this kind of on the ground, you know, mean, we, well, we're based on, you know, FDA protocols and getting these things, you know, out to the masses. We again, are providing a really boutique experience and

focus.

work.

speaker-2 (36:48.846)
Many people are focused. Data. Trial.

the masses.

experience.

people that

that come to us, you know, they find us and...

speaker-2 (37:09.186)
We really just trust the.

process in that way. We're on the ground doing the work and in ceremony and up all night and traveling to Gabon for initiations, know, re-studying and doing the work in that way. It is not as much. Came down to Mexico to sort

release.

speaker-2 (37:31.148)
You know, and we can sort of get out of the system.

I mean, we've been working underground in the US for quite some time and we're able to function above ground here and our work and people and looking those people in the eye and not thinking, you know, how can this...

to

speaker-2 (37:45.868)
Our focus really is the work.

speaker-2 (37:56.542)
Yeah, it's just a cap. How can we That for us. As far as the collective reciprocity.

capitalize on this. It's just not about, you know, what we're more interested in experiences, you know, and deepening these relationships with the indigenous people and upholding those voices. You know, we have a relationship with the Natan village. You know, they hold ceremonies simultaneously at the same time that we do to offer social protection and

very deep relation.

hold as we offer spirit. We have replanted over the bogus shrub.

in their village. have supported with infrastructure improvements. helped them to get some huge things for them. They were relying on a generator that took seven hours to get for. And again, it's more about the land and the people than utilizing on this.

speaker-2 (38:35.128)
solar last year, which was a huge.

speaker-2 (38:41.315)
gas.

speaker-2 (38:44.878)
And so to us, it's really just...

speaker-2 (38:51.64)
Capitalized treatment.

Well, yeah, I agree with the, you you say close attention to the people. But what I would push back is do you think the field is moving too fast without enough data?

Mmm.

I do think in many ways the field is moving too fast.

and I find it, I mean, I'm going back to traditional person.

speaker-2 (39:16.75)
to this true perspective where these.

Ibogaine clinics and other types of clinical environments, not only are they extracting one molecule that is the most beneficial we've done for how long with big pharma, it's just repeating the process, you know? And so the data, extractions, and these clinical frameworks, and they are important, and it's just not the

All like.

speaker-2 (39:35.096)
and then

speaker-2 (39:41.772)
I, they are valuable.

story.

Yeah, that's very true. A lot of times the clinical data doesn't always tell the human side of things. And I would agree with that. We talk about it a lot on the show. So if you had to be brutally honest, what's the biggest thing we don't know about iboga yet?

speaker-1 (40:10.798)
I think there's

Plus we don't know about eboga. Eboga is a trickster. It likes you to... It really likes there to be this...

big time.

its consciousness kind of mysterious, made you look alive.

This is a little cheeky, but know how hilarious Iboga is. Everybody is talking about this grueling, challenging 36 hours Mount Everest of psychedelics. I saw my deepest shadow, all of this stuff. And I think that the

speaker-3 (40:29.858)
But honestly, I don't think enough people talk about.

speaker-3 (40:50.271)
healing process and the deepening process and the introspective process. This particular medicine can be glorious and joyful and loving and something that is really important to us in our work. We bring it into ceremony and we are laughing and finding joy and the cosmic winks and so I think people are not talking enough about

with this hilarious

speaker-2 (41:02.946)
humor and some.

speaker-2 (41:08.837)
always

speaker-2 (41:12.994)
them.

speaker-0 (41:20.86)
Yeah, so if someone's listening, like one of our listeners, considering going to your retreat or trying an eye-boga, what's the single most important thing you'd want them to hear?

speaker-2 (41:38.88)
You are the one who's been waiting.

for.

Thank you.

That's a good one. Yeah, they're the ones. Yeah, that's not a lot there, but it makes sense.

You say a lot by saying a little, you know? Very true. Law of power. Yep.

speaker-0 (42:01.166)
All right, we're going to pause here on the public feed. If you guys want to keep going, we've got extended Patreon only segment with Paige and Fletcher. The part of the conversation a little looser, more personal, more reflective, and it gives them space to talk about what it's actually like to do this work day in and day out. If you support the show on Patreon, you can jump right into that now. And just to be clear, supporting the show is what lets us have conversations like this without turning them into ads or hype pieces. It keeps us independent and lets us stay honest even when the topics get complicated.

If not, there's no worries at all. The free episode ends here. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time.

speaker-0 (43:41.198)
We're to go right to it. We're about to go, go, go, go, go. We're about to go right to it. We're about to go right to it. We're about go right to it. We're about to go, go, go, go.

speaker-0 (44:55.214)
Before we close out, I want to flag a couple things. If you're listening in the public feed, we've got an extended Patreon only segment with Paige and Fletcher. That part of the conversation, a little more relaxed, a little more personal, a little less about the pressure and pressure testing the ideas, and more about the human side of the work, what keeps them grounded in it. Right. Yeah, if you support the show on Patreon, find the segment there, patreon.com slash Divergent States. As always, I want to acknowledge the Zendo project. Zendo provides peer report.

peer support, and harm reduction services at festivals and events, helping people navigate difficult psychedelic experiences with care and without judgment. If you want to learn how to support someone who's having a hard time or support the people doing that work, check them out. Using our code will help you too. Helps us. Helps us keep the show independent. So you guys check the show notes for that if you're interested with Zendo sit training. Brian, you got anything on today's episode? Yeah.

I was really just taking it all in because we talked about this at the beginning. Retreats like this are commonly accessed by veterans and things like that. so to me, when we're listening to these people talk, I'm just trying to take in, what is this experience like? What is it like from start to finish? Is this something that I see myself doing?

It's a lot. There's I mean, gosh, I we've talked to I mean, we've only had a couple of evoke, you know, practitioners on here, I Tom Fiegel from the beyond and then patient fletcher here, but it's a lot to take in.

Right.

speaker-1 (46:33.878)
It really is. I think what was blowing my mind, what we've seen consistently across the board with a couple of folks that we've talked to about this is like the extent of the retreat and the resources that are available. like we talked with Tom's side is, they still have some of those ritual elements and everything. However, it seems like, yeah, exactly. Whereas Paige and Fletcher's approach is more,

They're kind of more clinical.

speaker-1 (47:03.662)
like we discussed in the show is more focused on, you know, they still have those clinical resources available to you. However, they're focused more on that set and setting. Yeah, ceremonial, the structure of the ceremony. And I find both of those things very intriguing. Like they both have an element that appeals to me.

with the ceremony.

speaker-0 (47:25.912)
Yeah, it could be a lot of fun. But yeah. Anyway, guys, thank you for joining us. Appreciate you being here for season two. We've got a great season started, lined up. You remember to support us on Patreon, Divergent States. Otherwise, we'll talk to you next time. You guys keep exploring. Yeah.

See you