Psychedelics Don’t Fix Your Life… Here’s What They Actually Do | Talia Eisenberg

Psychedelics don’t fix your life.

They don’t make you a better person. They don’t replace responsibility. And they don’t solve the problems waiting for you when you come back.

In this episode, we sit down with Talia Eisenberg from Beond to talk about what actually happens after a powerful psychedelic experience—especially with ibogaine. What changes, what doesn’t, and why the hardest part is often what comes after.

We get into:

• why insight isn’t the same as change
• what people misunderstand about “healing”
• the unglamorous reality of recovery and integration
• why some people aren’t ready for these experiences
• and what it really takes to make those changes stick

This isn’t a conversation about breakthroughs or peak experiences.

It’s about what holds up when the experience ends.

🎧 Music:
Hyperspace — Sndbagz

🎙️ Divergent States is a podcast exploring psychedelics without the hype—focused on harm reduction, integration, and what actually works in the real world.

Chapters:

00:00 – Psychedelics Don’t Fix Your Life
01:17 – Harm Reduction Matters (Zendo Project)
03:08 – Meet Talia Eisenberg (Ibogaine & Recovery)
04:05 – What Psychedelics Don’t Fix
06:32 – Agency, Accountability, and Hard Truths
07:35 – Addiction, Ibogaine, and Starting Over
10:04 – Life After the Trip: Real Change
11:25 – Optimization vs Avoidance
13:26 – Psychedelics Don’t Replace Responsibility
14:39 – Spiritual Bypassing (Ketamine, MDMA, Psilocybin)
17:11 – Why Ibogaine Forces Honesty
20:07 – Escaping vs Doing the Work
20:59 – Do Psychedelics Delay Change?
22:33 – Who Struggles Most After Psychedelics
24:08 – The “Reset” Myth
26:19 – What Actually Changes After Ibogaine
30:05 – What Doesn’t Change
31:41 – The Comedown: Emotional Whiplash
34:00 – Healthy Discomfort vs Avoidance
36:58 – Struggle Isn’t Failure
38:48 – Power, Clinics, and Psychedelic Ethics
44:19 – Red Flags: Gurus, Clinics, and Safety
47:36 – You Don’t Need Ibogaine
48:58 – What We Cut (Patreon Preview)
52:20 – Final Thoughts + Support the Show

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Transcript

speaker-0 (00:18.83)
Psychedelics don't solve your problems. They don't make you a better person. They don't replace responsibility. And they definitely don't fix your life for you. What they can do sometimes is change how you relate to your own mind. And that's where things really get complicated. Today's conversation is about miracles, breakthroughs, or spiritual awakenings. It's about what actually happens when people take a very powerful psychedelic, come back into their lives, and still have to live with the outcomes.

No mysticism, no sales pitch, just honest questions. Welcome to Divergent States, conversations about psychedelics without the hype. I'm elite founder of our Psychonaut, the world's largest psychedelic harm reduction community. I'm joined as always by Brian, a Marine Corps veteran and someone who brings grounded perspective on a healing that actually works in the real world. So no visions of being chosen by the universe today.

speaker-1 (01:13.711)
no, I left my crystal ball at home.

speaker-0 (01:17.518)
OK. All right. Before we get into this, a quick note that aligns with how we do the show. Psychedelics are part of your life, underground, clinical, or somewhere in between. Harm reduction matters. One of the organizations we trust and support is Endo Project. They train people to support others through difficult psychedelic experiences, not to guide, not to fix, just to help someone get through a hard moment safely. If there's something you want to learn about, check out their training. Use our affiliate code, Divergent S10.

speaker-1 (01:19.48)
Ha.

speaker-0 (01:47.606)
It helps, it gets you a discount and helps us, you know, with the show. So no pressures, just tools that actually help reduce harm.

speaker-1 (01:55.95)
you

speaker-1 (02:51.31)
you

speaker-2 (02:52.046)
you

speaker-2 (02:56.014)
you

speaker-0 (02:58.446)
you

speaker-0 (03:08.536)
Today we're joined by Talia Eisenberg, who works with people undergoing psychedelic treatment at Beyond in Cancun, Mexico. Talia brings lived recovery experience alongside day-to-day responsibility inside of a psychedelic treatment organization, which gives her a perspective you really don't hear often, not from theory or not from marketing. So she's not really here to promise breakthroughs or lean into spiritual language. She's here to talk honestly about what happens when people take a very powerful psychedelic, return to their lives and still have to deal with habits

relationships, identity, and accountability. So this isn't a conversation about peak experiences. It's about what holds and what doesn't after that experience ends. So we talked to your co-founder, Tom Fiegel, last year. So this conversation is not beyond part two. It's about accountability, limits, and what happens after the experience ends. Talia, welcome to Divergent States.

speaker-1 (04:02.604)
Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.

speaker-0 (04:05.496)
Thank you. Really glad to have you. It's great to have multiple perspectives all the time. You're not coming at this as a psychedelic evangelist. You've lived recovery yourself. So what parts of recovery don't get fixed by inside or catharsis?

speaker-1 (04:24.096)
Sure. So in the context of Ibogaine and recovery, whether that's chemical dependency or behavioral addictions, even, you know, we can talk about work and for those that are high performing and addicted to being productive, you know, I think Ibogaine is a great tool and it can show you patterns where you're stuck.

belief systems that may not be true. can show you what you need to change. And then it's up to the individual to actually do that work afterwards. Now you might have heightened neuroplasticity, know, Ibogaine is a natural antidepressant. So it feels better and easier to make changes, but it really does depend on one's level of willingness and the space they make afterwards to

take these insights and start creating these new behaviors based on the insights. So it is definitely not the solution. It will show you a lot and unlike maybe something like ketamine that can be sort of a dreamlike escape, it will show you a very raw, honest truth about your life. So it's not for those that aren't ready to look at

what's challenging and what needs to be changed. But it does a very good job of showing you and helping with the interruption piece so that you can create these new changes. Does that make sense?

speaker-0 (06:08.258)
Yeah, I see what you're saying. There's not, try to see how I can phrase this. The unglamorous parts, guess. I guess, I don't know. It's hard for me to try and sum that up there.

speaker-1 (06:32.876)
No, I think that's right. Like for example, it does a great job of giving you choice and restoring agency. You know, there's less reactivity, less compulsion, more alignment. But in doing so, it shows you maybe the parts of yourself you haven't wanted to look at for a long time. And then it's up to you to decide, okay, yeah, this is true about me and I'm going to make these changes.

speaker-0 (06:58.818)
Yeah, and I feel like that comes through a lot of times, especially with any psychedelic journey that's kind of more on the upper ends of the scales, you know, that it really has a way of really kind of shining a mirror on you, you know, and then looking at your own self on what parts I need to fix and what parts I need to work on. that it sounds like Ibogaine is really good.

before kind of doing that exact thing. What were the slow and glamorous parts of recovery for you?

speaker-1 (07:35.95)
That's a good question. So for me, showed me, well, it showed me hard parts like unglam, well, I had to change my whole life. This was almost 15 years ago. You I was living in New York City, had to change my environment, make new friends. I ended up moving after my first Ibogaine experience. for those that don't know my story out there, it really did help me.

get away and stop using opiates. And that was it for me after that first week many years ago. But I did have to move away from my old environment and cut off a lot of people in my life at the time I thought, you know, did matter to me and reorient myself to a new perspective like the, like New York fast pace.

trying to be successful, trying to fit in, then moving into nature in Colorado and doing some things that I didn't want to do really, which was like going, I actually started going to 12 step meetings after Ibogaine and that gave me structure. think, you know, looking at parts of myself that I didn't want to look at too, like in 12 step, you're

You're looking at ways you've harmed people and really humbly making amends. was a big piece for me. Learning to be with my mind. showed me how, and this is true for a lot of people, whether they come for addiction or whether they come more for optimization or for mood and trauma like anxiety and depression. have multiple programs at Beyond. It shows you how busy your mind is and how to breathe and be with yourself.

And with pain and suffering that you may have repressed from going so fast in life. So that can be very challenging to learn to sit and feel again and process grief and anger. These are different pieces that take years after something like Ibogaine 2.

speaker-1 (09:59.276)
learn, it's a constant practice and I'm still practicing many years later.

speaker-0 (10:04.45)
Yeah, it's always tough, especially something like that confronts you, confront yourself like that. And then you have to learn that you have to change your habits, change your set and setting, so to speak. That extends beyond just the psychedelic trip. From then on out, your set and setting becomes important. And I think that really reflects that pretty well.

speaker-1 (10:27.53)
I think with Ibogaine, know, it depends where people are, if they're coming more for acute crisis, if it's been, if it's an addiction where you've been numbing for a long time, it's like you're suddenly very aware of how you've harmed people in ways that you couldn't see before because you were numb. So you have to do the work to pick up the pieces and...

But for those that are coming who have already done a lot of work, have experience with other psychedelics that are consciousness expanding and they're coming more for personal growth, more for what's next in my life, more for creativity, they're more aware, much more aware and further along, I think, in their personal growth cycle, there's less work.

to be done in that way, I would say.

speaker-0 (11:25.186)
Yeah, that's true. If they're just going in for optimization or whatever need be, it's not necessarily confronting a part of themselves they dislike. I mean, it really depends on the person.

speaker-1 (11:38.198)
Yeah, and some people do come who are burnt out, for example, and there's this element of, you know, maybe they've built a whole business and there's this element of compulsive productivity and there's certainly emotional avoidance. There's, you know, they've abandoned parts of themselves. A part of their identity might be fused to their performance and maybe they have avoided their spouse in ways and harmed their kids. And so

even for optimization, it's never really just about optimization, by the way. Optimization helps with, know, people come, Ibogaine removes interference, so if their mind is so busy and they've been so productive and they're burnt out, it will show them ways that they can be back in their body and be more present. And I think people, even for optimization,

they see ways in which maybe they've been moving too fast and they've avoided certain parts of their life. So in general, Ibogaine will show people what they've been avoiding too. So I see it for all types of clients that come.

speaker-0 (12:57.484)
Yeah, kind of removing the clutter for somebody interested in that. Like you said, optimization kind of removes the clutter from and shows them parts that maybe that's what's keeping them from being optimized, is they've got too much on their plate in certain areas. Yeah.

speaker-1 (13:14.71)
Yeah, Ibogaine can force honesty with internal patterns and that confrontation creates more clarity in their life for people that are more high performing.

speaker-0 (13:26.71)
Right. like to call it epistemic hygiene. Keep it all nice and clean in there. So one thing we like to emphasize on this show psychedelics don't replace accountability. Where do people misunderstand that?

speaker-1 (13:31.118)
You

speaker-1 (13:46.144)
Well, give me an example. I'd love to hear more about how you think that happens if you can share a little bit.

speaker-0 (13:52.718)
a lot of times, to me, it's a lot of times spiritual bypassing will come up. Just as they'll say, I learned this. got this, this great insight.

And maybe it is something they see reflected on themselves, but instead they will say, well, this is the universe telling me that my chakras aren't aligned. And so it goes into spiritual bypassing instead of taking accountability for maybe their own insights or whatever came up.

speaker-0 (14:33.612)
I'd say where do people misunderstand that, especially when it comes to something like Ibogaine.

speaker-1 (14:39.948)
Yeah, I see that.

I think it's very hard to bypass with Ibogaine versus other psychedelics where there's, you might, sorry, someone just walked in, where, I don't know, for example, you might use it to avoid, Ibogaine is really helping you go inward and it's hard to, I just, don't see avoid, it will show you the truth about something that's hard to look at.

So there's less bypass that happens, whereas something like ketamine can put people in more of a dreamy state and maybe help. What I noticed with clients coming who have maybe ketamine addiction, which I see more and more of, it's a tool. Look, I'm not going to knock ketamine. It certainly helps people, and it's a great gateway. And when done in a professional setting with coaches, it can

relieve depression and anxiety. when overused and it's becoming more and more overused, I see it as a bypass so people can avoid their emotions and avoid their feelings and places in their life that they don't want, things they don't want to look at.

speaker-0 (16:03.064)
So. Associatives are great for that.

speaker-1 (16:05.344)
Yeah, exactly. It's a dissociative, yes. So I think Ibogaine is known as sort of the iboga or Ibogaine the grandfather. It's stern and it will show you what you're avoiding. And so it is hard to bypass. It's in the days after Ibogaine, you you can't just turn on. It's rough sometimes because it shows you things. You can't just turn on Netflix.

and it shows you what you don't wanna look at and you can't sleep for days afterwards. And for a lot of people, grief comes up and these drawers that they've pushed aside appear and you have to look at them. don't have a choice. You can't just go on a trip or turn on the TV or like you are with your mind.

looking at ways that you may have harmed a lot of people or been selfish or engaged in patterns that harm others or yourself.

speaker-0 (17:11.566)
Kind of off topic, but do you see any, do you ever notice, consider you work and do this all the time? you see that certain chemicals seem to induce that kind of spiritual bypassing?

speaker-1 (17:26.124)
besides ketamine.

speaker-0 (17:27.352)
Yeah, like you see like psilocybin or anything like that that maybe will push people. Do you ever see that? I'm kind of curious.

speaker-1 (17:34.786)
I think psilocybin actually also is a great tool for looking at more challenging aspects of life and parts of self. think MDMA could be used as a bypass. You feel so great on it. You feel so much love. But I've seen people, I've heard people and seen people who also, like what's true in the heart could be placed

things you don't want to look at. I've definitely seen people have challenges and some pain come up and things that are hard to look at with MDMA. know, Bufo, it's all about the container really. Like if you're going in with intention to become a better person and make changes in your life or show me where I can be a better person, if that's your intention, I think...

some, a lot of these medicines will show you where you can be. But if you're going in to avoid and escape and you're using it in a setting, you know, if you're using MDMA with a therapist versus using MDMA at a concert where you're just going to have fun, and I'm not going to knock that, you know, I think that these things have their place recreationally, everything but Ibogaine that is, and Ebola because of the medical risk. I think,

You know, it depends on the intention. a lot of people will say that, depends on the intention. You know, am I using this as a tool to go inward or am I using this to escape? And you know, I never see people coming to Ibogaine to really escape. They know that they need to do this deeper work and at Beyond we certainly...

screen people to ensure that the people that come to us are willing. We don't want to work with people whose spouses are pushing them in or maybe a family member will say you have to do this, but that's a big piece on the preparation is that people should be ready. And if you're not ready, then come later, but we certainly don't need to treat people that are.

speaker-1 (19:57.314)
being forced in by somebody or coming because they're not ready. That makes for a very bad integration experience. Yeah.

speaker-0 (20:07.79)
Yeah, it really does. Go ahead.

speaker-1 (20:10.246)
you mentioned that, you know, Ibogaine is not really something that you would want to use recreationally or like for escape. I think what kind of what I've learned so far about all of this is that the escaping probably already happened before they chose the Ibogaine. I think when you choose Ibogaine, you're going, OK, I've tried to run from all of this and I think I'm ready to do to take a different path. That's a great point. Yeah, people that choose Ibogaine are they've typically tried everything else.

They're tired of escaping. They're ready to look at what's underneath, you know, what's happening inside and why, you know, show me why I'm still stuck in this pattern. So it's a very courageous act when people do choose to do Ibogaine.

speaker-0 (20:59.822)
Is there a risk that these powerful experiences can delay real change, behavioral change?

speaker-1 (21:09.454)
you

speaker-1 (21:12.91)
Yeah, if someone's not ready, you know, they could. So Ibogaine will not do the work for you, as we've discussed. It gives you your choice back. You become very aware of your programming and then it's up to you to make the change. So I've seen for certain people that thought they were ready and maybe they weren't, they choose to go back to.

their substance or their behavioral patterns because it's too much. They're not ready to look at the pain that's underneath and make the changes in their life. Now it could be argued that that's okay because they've, they end up healing something deeper in themselves regardless, even if they do choose to go back to alcohol, let's say. It's amazing to even hear, see like six months or a year later, they, most of them drink less, even if they.

do relapse by traditional, the traditional system standards and like taking a harm reduction approach, I think there's less self-hatred actually, like, cause they heal something deeper within themselves. So it could be argued that it's okay, even if they weren't fully ready. But yeah, you know, they get the choice and then it's up to them what to do with that choice.

speaker-0 (22:33.014)
you notice any psychological traits that tend to struggle more than others?

speaker-1 (22:40.236)
That's a good question. mean, I see people maybe that, you know, are dishonest with themselves in denial.

speaker-0 (22:53.003)
Kind of a copy of Dissonance, even they have that kind of mindset, I guess.

speaker-1 (22:59.232)
Yeah, I would say so. You know, also, of course, some people are more optimistic than others by nature. They believe that the world is not a good place. Like some people genuinely believe that the world is working in your favor and that God, nature, love is good. And at the core of it all, and other people don't believe that. And I think that can also...

affect the outcome as well. And I also, by the way, seen many people who believe that and then learn that, love is at the heart of everything or nature works in all of our favors here, that there is something much bigger. And they found that through Ibogaine. But I've seen people that have a harder time that don't believe that.

speaker-0 (23:55.712)
Are there any expectations that make those outcomes worse?

speaker-2 (24:01.254)
Mm...

speaker-1 (24:05.39)
I'd have to think about that more.

speaker-0 (24:08.93)
That's fine. can go on if you think of something. Hit me back up, and we'll see what we can come up with. So Ibogaine is often described as a reset. What does that metaphor get wrong?

speaker-1 (24:26.078)
Of course it makes it seem like you're an iPhone and you just plug it in and you connect to a bigger system and it's a simple iOS system reset. I would say that it can be very challenging process, this reset. It can be painful to look at. There's a lot of emotions involved. It's messy. It's not just a tech tool where you...

simply upgrade and you're done, right? We're human beings with, we're caring a lot, we're caring a lot from our ancestors. We have lives and we have, you know, family and it's a process that, you know, like in the Bwiti tradition, Iboga, one discipline, there's many, and I'm not an expert in it and I have deep reverence for it, but one thing I've heard,

is that it takes 10 years to integrate one Iboga initiation. So it happens very slowly over time. And I think that's something people don't understand either. We're so used to in our culture, like take this pill and then change happens right away and it's done. You you feel when you take an Advil, you feel better in 30 minutes or something, or as an example, this is a slower process and it brings a lot.

up to the surface over, can take, it takes many years to learn how to reorient yourself to life. What do you usually see that changes afterwards? When or what? Well, I guess, let me re-ask the question. What kind of changes do people usually see the weeks after an Ibogaine experience?

speaker-1 (26:19.22)
So it depends why they're coming, but if there are, let's say there's compulsive habits, you recognize pretty quickly afterwards that you don't have a desire to engage in those patterns anymore for the most part. People feel that pretty soon. get people that come for personal growth reasons or

Maybe they had a caffeine or a sugar, you know, they were over or overeating. They have their pattern to food. Their main goal though wasn't to come for that, they afterwards they're just taking care of themselves physically better. You're able to go inside and ask, what do I really need in this moment? You know, we in our culture drink caffeine like crazy because productivity is so important, hyper capitalism.

but they're able to pause so that the space between the stimulus and the reaction, it's much different. I don't really need that candy bar right now, or I don't need to react with anger to my partner. So there's more intentionality around how you respond to something and what you put in your body and why. So that's a big shift that happens pretty...

quickly right away. You know, I think you feel, most people feel a sense of clarity that they haven't had in a long time. Like, if you think about it, we are our memories, our identity and sense of self comes from what we've done, who we know, what we've experienced in this life, what we've created here.

A lot of people come in saying like, am my depression, I am my anxiety. And so, after I regain, I think people recognize that they are not, their identities, it's a retooling of your identity a lot of the time. So you experience depression, you experience anxiety, but it's not who you are.

speaker-1 (28:41.218)
this terrible thing happened to you as a child or if you're a veteran, you've been through war and that's a big part of their identity and these sometimes terrible and sometimes beautiful things too, having children happen to you. But you're able to find a much deeper sense of identity that's not tied to what you've experienced or what you've done. And I think that's another piece. And then another important aspect is Ibogaine,

you know, with the proper preparation, like at Beyond that we have and the proper integration supports, like we have workshops around finding your purpose and passion. And it's not just about doing Ibogaine, but like, why am I here and what makes me feel alive? And so people reconnect with their purpose and then they go out in the world and are able to more easily, because I think of the critical period in the neuroplasticity after Ibogaine, makes it easier to learn new things or.

restart things that you might have stopped in the past, people are able to go after their purposes again afterwards. So those are three things in general that I see often with Ibogaine and they could be coming for more optimization, they could be coming for dependencies or they could be coming more for mood and trauma. I see it with all three groups, yeah.

speaker-0 (30:05.902)
Yeah, so what doesn't change?

speaker-1 (30:10.862)
You ask good questions or tough questions. What doesn't change? Well, Ibogaine is different than other psychedelics. You don't have a full ego dissolution. So what I like, know, what makes it unique is that you retain your identity and what you love doing in life.

That, like I kind of just talked about that, but that does stay. What doesn't change? I mean, life continues to, you're still in the same environments and situations when you come out unless you choose to change them. But how you respond does change. How you react does change.

I don't know if that's helpful.

speaker-0 (31:08.554)
It reminds me of the old Chopwood carry water adage. You hear the monk, there's a student sees a monk on the road and says, what did you do before enlightenment? The monk says, Chopwood carry water. It's like, well, what did you do after enlightenment? Chopwood and carry water.

speaker-1 (31:31.88)
Yeah, you do the same thing, but your whole perspective has changed. enlightened. You aren't enlightened yet after Ibogaine, but you're, you know.

speaker-0 (31:41.814)
Yeah, still got a chop wood and carry water, We don't talk a lot about the emotional whiplash that can happen after some of these big experiences. What do people struggle with once that intensity fades?

speaker-1 (31:45.036)
Yeah, exactly.

speaker-1 (31:59.35)
Well, I think there's this sort of glow, to be honest, and I think ibogaine gets over glorified sometimes as this magical tool that's... But the truth is people do struggle after a few months as the neuro ibogaine fades from the system. The neuro ibogaine stays in your liver and promotes GDNF, which is this protein in your brain.

leal derived nootrophic factor that makes it more enjoyable to learn, makes you more curious. And people feel that leaving after a few months, and there can be a sadness around that, right? Because you felt so great, you felt brand new. And that's why those first couple months are so important for building new habits, community.

connection to self, or maybe it's a meditation practice. That is hard for people if they haven't really taken advantage of that critical period, which is why it's so important to be ready for Ibogaine, because you want to ensure you get the most out of it in those months afterwards. But if you're too busy or you're not able to give yourself the time you deserve or you're not willing to make these changes,

it can be very disappointing for those that didn't put the effort in during that period, because they will return to some of these same thought patterns or habits that they came to do Ibogaine for in the first place. So like at Beyond, we try to really explain that. I think ethically, we want people to know that it's a big responsibility and that they should be ready.

for something like this. And if they're not ready, maybe it's not the right time.

speaker-0 (34:00.088)
What does a healthy post-experience discomfort look like?

speaker-1 (34:05.25)
help healthy post discomfort.

speaker-0 (34:07.2)
Yeah, post-experience discomfort.

speaker-2 (34:10.766)
.

speaker-1 (34:10.893)
I mean, you know, we talked a little bit about it prior, but making changes that are hard to make that are no longer aligned with your life. you know, some people see that they've been in really bad relationships, not bad, but relationships that are no longer serving them for many years. And they finally do need to leave that person. And that can be very painful.

or leaving a job that they've had for many years, but it no longer serves their highest good. You know, for me, it was having to leave New York City and move to a whole new state. And it was what I needed to do to stay alive really for me and get out of that old environments. But it was very challenging to do it and make, build a completely new world from scratch.

You know, some people say it's not I begin, it's I begin again. You know, for some people, yeah. And for some people, they don't need to make many external changes, but there's internal changes that they need to make, you know, where they were avoiding certain emotions, really pausing and taking the time to feel slower emotions like sadness, which is typically underneath.

anger, maybe anger is easy, was easy, but pausing and stopping and giving yourself that attention you need. mean, it's learning these new habits can be very challenging, right? And right. Yeah, because painful when you think about like feeling sad, it feels very weak, whereas anger feels very powerful. So I see exactly what you mean, taking that time to like learn how to

set that aside that need to feel powerful over something and just accept the fact that you're also pretty sad about it. Yes, in our society, anger, especially for men, you know, is accepted. And sadness is seen as vulnerable and feminine and maybe not okay, right? So making those shifts and taking time for it,

speaker-1 (36:33.568)
is certainly not easy after I began. But typically very worthwhile and we hear from people like there, they feel totally reborn and it's been worth it. so there's an excitement and joy that comes with it typically, even though, you know, it can be very taxing and challenging.

speaker-0 (36:58.926)
Well, it's good to remember that struggle doesn't mean failure. It's kind of the point of all that. It's just because you're struggling or you have this, especially after a heavy experience, it doesn't mean you're failing. It just takes time to integrate.

speaker-1 (37:14.058)
Yeah, I like to think about and so do our clients like, where's the gift in all of this? There typically is one. What we think is bad, you know, if you zoom out or as life continues on and you look back later, there was many gifts in it, right? It was actually a good thing often. So we don't really understand because we're so deep in it in the moment. We can't see at the bigger picture where the gifts were like, you know, I was addicted to opiates.

for a couple of years as a teen and in my early 20s. And I thought that was the worst thing ever. And even after Ibogaine, I thought that was the worst thing ever. But now looking back many years later, it was such a blessing, right? It taught me, first of all, how to empathize with clients that we have today. But also it showed me through the dark night, how that there is something, for me it was spiritual, something much bigger.

that had me the whole time, that there's such wisdom in being in a mental prison like that, thinking you would never get out of it. The obsession in your mind of not getting sick, the darkness of it, and finding the light, and finding this tool then to be able to help support and build something like Beyond, where I just see miracle after miracle every day. It turned out to be.

one of my greatest gifts in life. So you never know, you never know.

speaker-0 (38:48.3)
Yeah, you're right. You just never know in life and how things end up turning over down the line. just moving on over to kind of clinics and culture and the power dynamics of everything, psychedelic treatments creates intense power asymmetry. How do you prevent people from handing over too much authority?

speaker-1 (39:16.064)
like within our staff.

speaker-0 (39:17.73)
Yeah. Within the clinical setting, psychedelic, especially psychedelic treatment, it does create an intense, a really big power asymmetry. So when you have a client come in, what safeguards do you have to help keep people from handing over too much of their own agency or authority?

speaker-1 (39:40.398)
Yeah, I think that's a real challenge with like ayahuasca centers, you know, they're they're built around typically one healer one guru. It's also a challenge, you know, it's been a it's been a challenge with gurus I am I think that our society is starting to move out of that where the individual has their own agency and becomes their own guru. That's what I'm starting to see more and more of. So we've built up

We built a setting where we help people find their own personal agency through many tools and workshops. And Ibogaine itself is a tool that helps you find that. when it comes to our own team, we don't have one main doctor. We don't have one main coach.

we provide workbooks that really help people do their own work so they don't become dependent on any one coach or they don't give away their agency to any doctor. They are given the tools to go inward and ask themselves deeper questions. I think that's a big piece. And different things as well. Like we've since opening over the last five years,

we provide medicine legally to our staff to do their own group work together every several months so that they're able to see their own projections. Maybe there are sometimes power struggles within the medical team or within the nursing team and even within the coaching team. So that really helps too. So they're able to work through

challenges together and find that connection. And the other piece is that we've done other radical things. For example, like our head nurse manages the physicians, which tend to be mostly male. We do have some female physicians, which is great, but that's different than the hospital model where there's sort of a hierarchy and maybe it can feel

speaker-1 (42:03.928)
There's a power dynamic typically between doctors and nurses. So I think that's shifted that power dynamic by having a woman named Patty, who's incredible. She's a nurse. She's our lead nurse. She basically manages all the doctors. so we don't see that like leader power dynamic aspect.

at beyond so much, really is about being a team on the same level playing field. have gratitude circle every morning at 10 AM. And it doesn't matter if you're, you know, a dishwasher or a physician, along with our staff, you're coming together. It's it's mandatory along with our clients. You're that are present. everyone's sharing about what they're grateful for. know, and that's very powerful that also.

levels the playing field around power dynamics. So even the clients can feel that these are humans, they have their own struggles. And many times staff members share vulnerably and cry. And so it shows our clients that it's okay to go inwards and to face things that are hard to face. And it also helps, I think, alleviate this feeling of like, they're gods, they know better.

You know, I share my own struggles. So, you know, even though I did this many years ago, I'm very much human and I, you know, have my own challenges and I don't definitely don't know all the answers. So that's, that's an ethos we have it beyond, I think around power and they're not being like one main healer and really helping people.

I can't, we can't tell anybody what's true for them. Only the client, only that individual and the client can tell themselves what's true for them. And that's the same for all staff members. so, and hosting these weekly workshops where our staff can talk through challenges and is a big part of that as well. So yeah, I hope that helped answer your question. I'm always picking on the cul-de-sac shamans. You know, it's always that dude, it's like Mike that went to the

speaker-0 (44:12.236)
No, go ahead.

speaker-1 (44:19.266)
the Amazon, he's like, yeah, man, ayahuasca, dude. And I just, don't know, it seems like a cult to me. So I guess the next question is like, what red flags would you, would you caution listeners to look out for when they're looking to do something on, you know, this level?

red flags, I would say, well, if it's Ibogaine, you certainly want there to be ACLS trained medical professionals present 24 seven. that's very important. You know, the, the medical intake in process will tell you a lot, like what is the facility asking? What are they looking for related to your health?

looking for a history of cardiac issues, looking for a history of psychiatric challenges, how thorough is the intake? We have, for example, a medical form that prospect clients fill out, and from there, there's a follow-up call with one of our physicians. we have...

at this point, 12 or 13 full-time physicians on staff, 24-7, there's always physician present. We have about 25, 26 nurses. So that's very important. Some websites don't even have names of people who are behind the organization on the website. So...

And then of course, reviews online and you can see, you know, others experiences at these places and what were they? think that's very important to look at.

speaker-0 (46:20.566)
Yeah, we did something I've said in the subreddit for a long time, and especially when gurus come up, they will, or people will mention a guru or something and say, well, listen to so and so, he talks about this. It's always, hey, that's why we don't allow gurus here or cults, because to me, being a psychonaut was always forging your own path, making your own map, not about borrowing someone else's. So that's...

you know, that's kind of what you're trying to do and keep alive. And personally, I mean, I've had a couple of like, especially ayahuasca people come and pitch and want to come on the show. But any time I see something like the like the language of like maestro or something of that effect, I'm always just like that puts up red flags in me immediately. I'm like, what are you talking about here? Like, like he's where did he get this knowledge? Who did he get this knowledge from? Can we verify this, et cetera, et cetera? So.

Yeah, I get where you're coming from on a lot of that. So if someone listens to this and decides, say, they don't want to pursue Ibogaine, but walks away more grounded and informed, is that still a good outcome?

speaker-1 (47:36.558)
Absolutely. It's not about just, know, Ibogaine is not for everybody all the time. It might be right for you at different life points or never at all. Some people, I spoke to someone the other day that doesn't feel called at all for to Ibogaine ever. They're a completely healthy individual. They've worked with many other psychedelics. I mean, it's still, I think it's important to be informed. And a lot of people,

might not want to do it themselves, but they refer others that are suffering. There's so much suffering today on the planet. If you think this could help somebody else, it's worth sharing and it's up to that person if it resonates. especially now given all the research around Ibogaine and what we're seeing it do for PTSD and starting to see it for neurodegenerative disorder is very preliminary.

research but still, mean, there's definitely people that could use this and want, are seeking, actively seeking solutions. And typically they've tried a lot of other modalities that haven't worked but don't know this exists. So that's how it is really spreading right now. We get a lot of people interested because they hear about it from their friends or family.

speaker-0 (48:58.636)
Nice, well, we're going to pause the public conversation here for Patreon supporters. We're continuing with a longer, little more candid discussion, getting into the uncomfortable parts that usually get left out. Disappointment after big experiences, identity collapse, or psychedelic culture over promises and who really shouldn't be doing this work. So if you support Divergent States because it stays curious without getting gullible, that's exactly where Patreon helps us support. You can find us over at patreon.com Divergent States. If not, no problem. The public episode stands here.

it's out and we'll talk to you soon.

speaker-1 (49:32.206)
How is that possible?

speaker-1 (49:42.994)
you

speaker-1 (49:55.798)
you

speaker-0 (52:20.002)
Well guys, that was our interview with Talia Eisenberg. Before we wrap up, two quick reminders that line up with the show. First, if psychedelics are a part of your life, learning harm reduction matters more than belief. We continue to recommend Send No Project for peer support training around difficult experiences. You can use our code DVERGENTS10 to get a diss account and support the podcast. Second, if you value conversations about psychedelics that don't turn into guru worship or marketing funnels, you can support the show on Patreon.

That's where we host extended conversations and deeper dives that don't always belong in the public feed. Links are in the show notes. Thanks for listening and as always, take care of yourselves and each other.

speaker-2 (52:59.611)
you

speaker-0 (53:05.256)
you