The Truth About Female Friendships After 40 (That No One Tells You)

Sisterhood in midlife is more than nice-to-have—it’s essential.

But no one really talks about how hard it can be to find, build, or keep deep female friendships once you’re juggling careers, caregiving, and a million responsibilities.

In this honest and heart-filled episode, I’m sharing a powerful guest panel conversation I was part of—all about the changing dynamics of friendship, how sisterhood evolves in midlife, and why we still need our people.

We cover:

• The loneliness so many women feel but rarely admit
• The myth that friendship should be effortless
• How to cultivate connections that actually feel nourishing
• Why this matters more than ever when you’re going first or growing into a new version of you

Whether you’re craving deeper friendships or just need a reminder that you’re not alone, this one’s for you.

🎧 Tune in and let’s talk about what no one else is saying out loud.

Sponsored by The Inner Spark Podcast with Casey Taton
Honest conversations. Life-changing moments. Tune into Inner Spark wherever you get your podcasts—and let the sparks fly.

Connect with the panel:

• Jennifer Chambers / Podcast: Your Voice Matters / www.jennifer-chambers.com / IG: @jennifer_chambers_
• Jama Patel / www.jamapantel.com / IG: @jamapantel / Podcast: Brand Building: Living the Whole Picture
• Kena Siu / IG: @kenasiu / https://wellbeingproject.ca / Podcast: The Midlife Butterfly: Healing, Empowerment & Self-Discovery
• Casey Taton / IG: @cataton / Podcast: Inner Spark
• Dana Hunter Fradella / IG: @girls.who.recover / Podcast: Girls Who Recover

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Transcript

The Truth About Female Friendships After 40 (That No One Tells You)

[00:00:00] Welcome, beautiful souls. I am so excited for this episode because I have a powerhouse of women at Midlife Butterfly today, a group of five amazing and authentic women, which I have the pleasure to become part of their lives, and they are part of mine thanks to podcasting. They are my pod sisters in the podcast program we're taking with Cathy Heller.

And I can wait for you to hear their stories, their wisdom, their joy, and feel their energy, because this is gonna be amazing. And we're going to dive into the topic of sisterhood in midlife and the power of female friendship. I will let each of you to introduce a little bit of you in a few sentences so people can start noticing your voices.

So every time you do a, a share, they can recognize who you are. [00:01:00] Uh, I'm just gonna take your names in advance. So we have Tracy Hill, Jennifer Chambers, Casey Taton, Dana Hunter Fradella, and Jayma Patel. So thank you all for being here. Such a pleasure to have you here, sisters, and I can wait to this conversation.

Yay.

Okay, Tracy, you wanna go first? Sure. Hello everyone. Uh, good morning. My name is Tracy Hill. Um, and my company is a beautiful fix. I help women, um, redefine and reconnect with what truly makes them feel alive, to stop relying on external, um, answers, and really to start to trust the answers with. And I do that through my podcast retreats, um, and tools like human design.

Beautiful. Thank you [00:02:00] Jen,

so much for having me. Um, and I'm all sure. My name is Jennifer Chambers and, uh, my podcast is called Resilient With Jen Chambers. I talk to people about their stories and as a writer, I feel like people's stories are so, so important. And it's my pleasure to be able to, to share other people's journeys. I often talk about people with chronic illness, and that's my specialty.

Thank you, Casey. Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm Casey Payton. Um, I'm the host of the Inners Spark podcast, and I also run an organization doing parties for kids in the hospital. So I, my mission is to bring smiles to any kid going through a battle in my hometown. Thank you, Dana. [00:03:00] Thank you, Kay. I'm Dana Hunter f I'm coming to you from New Orleans, Louisiana, the most magical place on earth, and I am a transformational life and career coach for women and my company's called Girls Who Recover, and I'm the host of the podcast Girls Who Recover with Dana Hunter Fela.

And my mission in life is to help women transform their biggest setbacks into their most gorgeous comebacks so that we can live lives we absolutely love. Thank you so much for having me. A pleasure, jama. Hi y'all. Thank you so much for having me on here, kina. I really appreciate it. My name is Jama Pantel.

I am in Austin, Texas, and I am a portrait photographer, turned author, educator, run, influencer, and now chasing my dreams and starting my podcast, brand building, living the whole picture. Um, what I learned being in the studio and behind the [00:04:00] camera all these years as the, the confidence that we lack or don't have in ourselves really comes out on screen, on film, on camera.

And so my goal now is to help women find that confidence so it shows so they shine in life on camera, in business, and in everything they do. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my God, this is fantastic. Okay, so let's start even with some of the questions in here. Uh, well. Again, we have the pleasure to meet through the podcasting program that we are taking at this moment, but we know that there are many women, especially with midlife, who feel like friendships are harder to maintain.

Uh, so why do you think that happens and how can we shift this narrative[00:05:00] 

or Tracy? Yeah, so this, you know, when you reached out to me about this, I thought, this is so timely because I am married, I have four sons. My dog is male, one of my cats is male. My whole life is become very testosterone filled. Oh. And um, I realized. Recently that I truly miss sisterhood. Like I've been very neglectful, I think, in being a friend and recognizing how important that part of my life is.

My life became very much about my family. Um, and so I think that's one of the reasons is you get to midlife and your life is about all the things. It's about work and keeping the household going and appointments, and sometimes friends, at least for me, it started to almost feel like, um, not optional, but it was just with my long laundry [00:06:00] list, it was harder for me to reach out and check in on people.

Like, I'm a great texter. I will do it. I will check in by text, but physically making time to go see them was something that I just, it, it failed to kind of the, the bottom of my list. So I think that's a big part of, of why it becomes a little bit harder. We're more isolated. Everyone's working from home, but I made it a priority recently.

To re to really start to, um, work on, on, on making this a priority, recognizing how important sisterhood is in my life. And it's, it's made a big difference in the last, um, year or so. Yeah. It's about taking the step also not waiting for everything too happen to us. Right. So thank you for your share.

Absolutely. Yeah, I relate so much. So I could have basically said, except for the boys, I have three girls. Um, same story, right? So we, I, I just think about my journey through [00:07:00] sisterhood and friendships. I had close friendships when I was in high school and then I was in a sorority when I was in college.

And so that sort of automatically gives you a, a great group of friends. But something happened to me. And there are two things I think that contributed to that is, um. I got really serious about chasing my career, like trying to do really well in my career, and I just got super focused on that and prioritize that over other things.

And the other thing that is maybe unique about me, at least on this call, is that I had really terrible alcoholism. And so I, and I don't think that the ISM part is unique, right? Like every body is recovering from something. But in that recovery or before the recovery process, it was a lot of isolating and a lot of separating and a lot of, I'm different, or at the end it was very much like hiding.

And so even when I got sober and got in recovery, there's this narrative in my head that like, [00:08:00] I'm different. I'm, I don't even know how to make friends. Like by the time I got sober, I couldn't even like talk to women. Um, it's advised in 12 step programs for you to get a mentor. And women need to work with women.

And even for the first year, I was like, no, I can't. I don't even want to. And so that's been a whole different story and journey. But I think that there's something that happens where we feel separated or isolated, and then we prioritize other things because it's a little easier than having intimate friendships and relationships, which I found are so important.

And I love this group because we get to practice that, right? We get to practice that right here, holding space for each other and definitely, and learning what it means to be in, in sisterhood. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing part of your story as well. Uh, jama. So much. [00:09:00] Like Tracy said, I am surrounded by boys in my personal life.

I am the oldest daughter, two older brothers, and we are all back to back in age. Um, and if you know anything about oldest daughter syndrome, they are the strongest man you'll ever meet. True, that's true. Yeah. And so there's a gap between me and my little sisters. So I grew up around my brothers. My parents will tell a story.

When I was a little girl, my brothers were running around with their shirts off and I was constantly taking my shirt off. Like I was convinced. Why, why am I not a boy like that? And then I'm a proud aunt to five boys. So my grandparents have nothing but, or my parents have nothing but five grandsons. So I am surrounded by boys in my everyday life.

Um, and so, uh, I always related to them where I was in sports. I played little League baseball. I was the only girl on the team. I did karate back in the day. It was the Boys Club, not the Boys and Girls Club. I was the only girl in karate. Um, so I always. It was always easier for me to relate to boys on the sports front.

[00:10:00] Um, as I got older and in my professional life, I worked, had a career in politics and, and Texas politics is also all around all about men. Yeah. And so that's when I started being drawn more to the female leaders and started creating friendships with strong female personalities. And that's where I finally started being at home with the female friendships.

Um, but I recognize how busy so many women are and I think that's a huge part of why maintaining those friendships. And I found that the best friendships with my female friends these days are the ones who aren't needy. And we can go months without seeing each other. And the second we're together, we're like, you know, kindergarten girls squealing best friends again.

Oh yeah. Well, for me also, that's the best kind of friendships, you know, you're not codependent like whatever you're, yeah, whatever you're available, then you are there and then it looks like you just see yesterday, even though sometimes passes like months or even years, right? [00:11:00] Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Casey,

I, sorry, that kind of caught me off guard. Um, so I think that I faced the me a medical battle, um, before I worked in the OR, and I had a great group of women, um, that I was surrounded by. And then when I got sick, I think I, I felt like I lost all my friends and all my connections and as I started to grow, um, it was like, where do you meet friends?

And I'm also, I don't have kids of my own, and so I think a lot of my friends had also had kids. And so it was just such a challenge to where do you go? To meet friends, where do you go to meet people and to actually truly connect. And, um, I am so grateful that now we have, I'm in communities that have women in them and just the powerful, the power of the sisterhood in here.

And it's just, it's just magical something. Yeah. [00:12:00] It's, it's so good.

Uh, Jen, let's go with your chair, Steve, because I feel like a combination of everyone because, um, I'll have three kids. I have two boys and one girl, and we never thought we would have a girl. So it, it's interesting. Um, so I grew up as, um, one of two, and then as a parent, I, my, my kids are a little bit older, so I had a very male atmosphere also.

And also I'm chronically ill. I, so I, I feel very much like Casey's saying there's, there's a different kind of relationship you have with people when you're chronically ill. So, um, so I have the, the parent part, and then also you just feel very isolated. Um, I'm also physically isolated because I live in a small town.

So as you grow out [00:13:00] of the parenting role and your kids get older, you have a different relationship with the people in your community anyway. And then as you grow into the different stages of being chronically ill, you know, you have to relate to people in a different way, in that way. So, um, it's interesting and especially as a, as a woman, there's a lot of competitiveness that, um, I feel like, you know, when you're an early parent, you're like, who's the best mom and who makes the best cupcakes, and all that kind of stuff.

I dunno if anybody else feels that, but Oh my gosh. Mm-hmm. But I always felt like I was not measuring up. Um, I think all parents feel like that. Um, but so then trying to relate to those, those females that were very competitive. Um, then it, it's interesting as you, as you grow older and grow more into yourself, [00:14:00] you kind of leave all that behind.

Um, so at this point, I feel like the best way for me to make parents as, as a older or make parents, make friends as an older midwife woman is kind of finding people who have the same activities. So not only this wonderful podcasting group, but I found a lot of community within the writing community. Um, which is interesting because that's also starts out competitive, but then you realize there's room for everyone.

It's much the same with with other women. You know, it's so nice when women make space for other people and we all can bring our own things to the table. I, um, I've learned so much from all of these women, but certainly by trying to find spaces outside of my area that I can, that I can learn from. I feel like I've gained a lot of friendships that way, if that makes sense.[00:15:00] 

Yeah. Thank you all. Yeah. For me, I always think of, I've been always kind of like a long wolf to tell you the truth. So of course it comes like that kind of isolation and, but at the same time, since I've been living in different countries and in different cities all my life, like in the last 20 years, like I have very good friendships, but they're all over the world.

Which sometimes, sometimes, I mean, it's difficult. I mean. I mean difficult in a way because it's different to have a friendship that you can see every day compared with someone that um,

uh, yeah, that you can then connect online once in a while. And I mean, it's not the same kind of flow, if I can put it that way. 'cause sometimes what we prefer just to be more in contact in like in presence of the person that long [00:16:00] distance. So that's why sometimes like I don't keep connected to some of my friendships, uh, because of course they have their own life and then we sometimes don't get to talk or to see for years.

But the farm part is JAMA was saying before is that then we get to see each other and it's like, we just catching up from yesterday, it doesn't matter. You know, what else like happened before, it's just like, you know, coming back that. Um, but yeah, I mean. It was interesting because like during the pandemic is when I separated as well, so I was like, how am I gonna do like new friendships too?

Because we're not able to see many people. And my ex partner, he actually recommended me to get into Bumble. So like they have a friendship area. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. And I did meet some women in there and so that was a, you know, a good point of, you know, if somebody else would like to try it out, why not?

Uh, that there's also women who we want to have [00:17:00] friendships and more at this age if, if we are still single, if we don't have kids. And even if you ladies are married, you have kids, of course you want to keep growing. Uh, you know, your, yeah, your connections, your network. So yeah, thank you all for your shares.

It's, uh, beautiful to see how the different perspectives, how it comes according to our life experiences, which is she's awesome. I would like to know, uh. Let's go with these questions. What role do female friendships play in a woman's personal growth, healing and empowerment, especially when we have a, you know, a big shake up of life or life transition.

Let's go jama. Yeah, I found that my female friends are my rocks. I can go to them about everything without [00:18:00] judgment. Um, and I know that's not the case with all women, right? So the ones that stick and the ones that stay and the ones that are your tribe, you can go to them about anything and they will, they will go to war with you.

Um, and all those memes and all those things about besties and all the things, they are so relatable to the people that you keep in your corner. Um, you can bounce ideas off of them for business, for life, for anything. And they will have your back a hundred percent. Even if they know you're wrong, they will still support you and lovingly talk you back to the right.

Um, but they are your right or die 100%. And that is, that is the best part of the female friendship, in my opinion, is supporting you no matter what in all of your journeys and endeavors. And they will do that. Yeah. Beautiful. Casey. I agree with what JAMA said. Um, as [00:19:00] we grow and change in life, um, our friends change and the people we connect with change.

And I think, um, this group of ladies right here is someone I turn to often, and we've laughed together, we've cried together, we've held space for each other. And I think when you have a circle in, um, I know we all have more than one circle of friends that they're gonna hold you accountable and they're not, I mean, they're gonna pick you up when you're down and they're gonna encourage you and inspire you to keep going.

And those are just, it's just so powerful when you can connect with a strong group of women like that. And I, I believe they're out there and you just have to find 'em. And as you keep growing and changing, um, they're gonna change. Some of 'em may change and others may just grow with you and just make your life that much better.

Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. And I'm so grateful for this group. Like we have so different personalities and backgrounds and stories and, and life [00:20:00] experiences that it makes it so rich. Like this is a super wealthy group. I mean, with all different stories and the support that we get to receive and give at the same time when we gather in, in different ways that, and how we are growing together.

It's something so beautiful and so fulfilling to, to experience with all of you. And yeah. I'm so grateful that you are here. Uh, Jen, let's go with your share. One of the things that I think, um, to kind of piggyback on what Gemma and Casey said, one of the things that is so special about this group in particular.

It makes a space for people to be vulnerable. And I think that as we grow, um, like Jama was saying, women have each other's backs in a different way because we [00:21:00] allow the women in our lives to be vulnerable and to, um, and to share those kinds of hard things and, you know, talk about solutions and then talk about and, and just exist in a way that a lot of other spaces don't allow for.

And, um, that's why I think both it's harder to grow those friendships sometimes because you have to feel free to be vulnerable, but also that once you have them, they're so incredibly powerful.

Yes, definitely. Thank you. Um, Tracy, I. Okay, so Jen just mentioned being vulnerable. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go there. Yes. Listening to the ladies share. It's just us, right? There's two of us listening. Nobody, I'm having all these epiphanies just listening to this conversation. I, I'm realizing [00:22:00] I am, I think I'm intimidated by women and, uh, I have a fear vision.

I always have. I grew up super sensitive. You could hurt my feelings like that. Look at me the wrong way. And I'm like, oh gosh, this person isn't. And I think women, um, I was blessed. The women that I have in my life, they kind of fell into my lap. I didn't have to do anything. I, they literally, I felt like the universe dropped them in my lap and they're the most important things to me.

But if they didn't just drop in my lap, I don't even know how to like, go up to a woman and be like, hi, you wanna be friends? I'm so afraid of that. No. Or, oh my God, like what? So I don't do it. And I've never exercised that muscle again. I've always had them kind of naturally come into my life and I think I'm afraid of just rejection.

And so with men, for some reason, I feel very comfortable. Um, my stuffed animals were all male. [00:23:00] Um, I feel very accepted. It's, I can't explain it. Um, and so I think that's why, another reason why my life became very male dominated and. But a female friendship. There's nothing like it. When I talk to my husband, I love him, he's great, but I drive him crazy 'cause I want all the detail I want.

He tells me a story and I'm like, well, well did he say, I don't know. I didn't ask that. Well, did they? He gets none of the detail. But when I call my girlfriends, oh my gosh. They're like three hour calls. I haven't called you in forever. And when I do call, we're on the phone all day because I need the details.

And then they said, what and what? And then we cry together and then we laugh and you know, there's nothing like female companionship. But listening to you ladies, for the first time in my life, I'm realizing I've got this fear of rejection. I'm, I'm a little Tim. It's the sister wound. You hear people talk about the sister wound?

I, I have it, yes. Oh wow. Yes. [00:24:00] It does exist. The thing is, I think because probably I don't if it's the patriarchy or or what, but we as women, I mean it has changed through the years, but before it was competition and I know still exists is just that women to be competitive against each other. And that's why a lot of resistance and that's why also I believe sometimes it's hard to make friendships when you are in that kind of energy.

But we have shifted and it's shifting and now it's about collaboration and it's a different com complete different approach on how to yet to create that kind of connections. And, and probably that's why that fear of rejection comes from you, Tracy, because you are being, you are used to be by males and being accepted by them, that by approaching women, that's probably kind of like the fear they have because of that idea of.

Competition that [00:25:00] that's the way we grow as midlife woman with midlife women. We, we grow like this, but thankfully we are in a space now with, in a completely different energy of collaboration and love and giving and receiving. Uh, that is just shift everything else. Yes. And I'll I'll say one more thing.

There's nothing more beautiful than watching women support each other. Oh, hands down. It is just to see women celebrate each other, hold each other up. It's, there's something magical about it. So I love that we're moving into this, this era of sisterhood. Yes, definitely. Dana,

I also am having some epiphanies, but I wanted to pull up this research on the power of female friendships on our kids. And so, because there's so much benefit for us, but I was blown away by what the research says about the impact on our kids. So just a couple [00:26:00] things. When women, when kids observe their moms having strong, positive friendships and a and a social circle, their cognitive development is above their peers who don't have that.

They have higher self-esteem, they have better social skills, and they feel safer, and they feel connected, and they feel a sense of belonging in the world. Wow. Like if that's not good enough reason to go out and recruit some new friends and you know, like I don't wanna live my life for my kids, but I do have three small kids.

And I feel like how we're always asking like, how can we create safety and. Love and connection for our kids. And it's the craziest thing. It's like if we take care of ourselves, how do we do that? We link up with other women. And the epiphany that I had too is I wa I am co. I was competitive and still like have to check myself.

'cause I'm like, no, what? We can't be friends 'cause we're fighting for the same GPA, [00:27:00] we're fighting for the same seat in grad school. We're fighting for the same. You know, it's like that is the patriarchy cana, this sense of scarcity. Like there isn't plenty for everyone. There's more than enough. That's of the patriarchy that there's not enough.

Yes. And so it's helped me to really break out of this, where did I get that from? Like where do we all get our things from, from our moms? So that's the epiphany is like my mom is a strong batty woman. Woman and she was a trailblazer in her career and that did not leave time for intimate friendships. And so we do what we see.

Yeah. Unless we are ready to call, do a generational interruption. And that's what I, I think we're here to do. Right? Interrupt the generational patterns of women competing against women. Mm-hmm. For what? Right. What for, for men, for careers, for the things that, like, by the way, when we get them, we're like, [00:28:00] what?

Why am I alone? Why is this not making me happy? And so the power of female friendships, it goes way beyond us. Although, but like, let's bring it back to the actual table. That's one thing I feel really proud of is once I was able to release this narrative that I'm separate and I'm different. And if I, and there's a competition there.

Here's a secret, there's no competition. I. But it still comes up for me too, even in the podcasting program. I'm like, well, why does she have the billion downloads? And I only have, you know, it's like, oh, hush patriarchy. Step aside. Yes. And then, then working against that, where I reach out to that person, I'm like, that's amazing.

I'm celebrating you. And meaning it really deeply. And the other thing I just wanna say, I messaged this group about 30 minutes before we signed on and I was like, Hey, I am having a meltdown. I will be there. [00:29:00] Right? Like, and just being open about what is actually real. I've cried on the calls, I've told, like tried to do my best to tell the truth.

And I think that, not that you've gotten to the question about like, how do you make friends? Well, you go first and you show up all of you as an invitation for the woman who's ready to do that, to do the same thing. So I have lots of good friends and I probably have like five or six really intimate friendships that I do keep up with systemically.

They're on the calendar. We have friend dates either every week or every month. Mm-hmm.

Beautiful. Thank you Dana. Uh, Jane, I want to share something else. Go ahead. Yeah, I wanna go back and touch on what Tracy said in that fear of rejection. I have actually been broken up with by females. Um, and I know a lot of friendships change and grow and, you know, die off. But actually having somebody tell you, I [00:30:00] don't wanna be your friend anymore for X, Y, Z, I've had that happen twice in my life and it was the hardest thing ever.

And I still think about both of them. Um, and one was way more recent in midlife, in the over 45 space, and it's ridiculously interesting and hard. But again, you do the inner work and you recognize that it. Isn't you, um, the, the issues and stuff like that. And it's, you still think about it, but you recognize that it isn't you.

And so the fear, I mean, I haven't stopped making female friends because of it, but I, I get the rejection part because it's hard. And you wanna, as women, I think it's like, what did I do? What did I do? What did I do? But you have to recognize it's not what you did. And so I can't think of any woman you walking up to would, would ever be like, no, I don't wanna be your friend.

I'd be like, yeah, let's go get some coffee or ma chair. Yeah. And you know, it happened to me, but that exists. Yeah. I, [00:31:00] uh, yeah, one of my best friends, she broke up with me like in the middle of, I was divorcing and still grieving my father. And, uh, yeah. And she didn't even have, you know. Always to tell me on the face.

Like she literally wrote a freaking long email and, and she was kind of like, no, no, like, uh, uh, I don't know. Anyway, so it was like, in a few words, she, I mean, she said like, uh, yeah, that I was being very condescending. I can't remember. Uh, but my point is, yeah, it's heartbreaking because we were very close that we were, see, I mean, we were working together and we will see each other.

Like, even though I was married at the time, like two or three times a week, we will have, you know, activities and it's still and things like that. And then suddenly it's like, you know, and the thing is, I, what I understood is like, she broke up with me because like I was going through a green process. I was shifting my life [00:32:00] so much that it is just like, I guess, um, she couldn't handle it.

If I can put it that way, because that's the thing when we grow and evolve and change so fast, and I don't know, I don't think it was envy or anything, it was just that we didn't all align anymore. But with what I was happening and yeah, it hurt like shit. Like it was very bad. And I remember once in, in a call with, with a, I was doing a, a group, um, another taking a program at that time and this lady at 70, she was like, no worries.

I just broke up with a friend like no time ago. I was like, okay, so this is gonna keep happening. Right? And that's the cool part is that some people goes, or we had growth them or whatever, some of the people are gonna come that are aligned with us. So just, just, uh, let's grieve because yeah, we have to grieve those relationship, but at the same time just keep going and be open to, to receive more, so.

Mm-hmm. [00:33:00] They know. What else do you want to share? It is almost essentially what you just said. Okay. Like the beau, the beautiful part about midlife is that I give many less Fs about most things. Yes. And so it's given me what's left is like crystal clarity around the things that are important to me. And now that I have that, I have looked at some of the friendships and just said like, this is not a match.

It's just not, you know, like my friend for, we were friends for 20 years, but like she has a problem that she's not addressing. And so it's hard for us to be together because it's just like, I can't, like I can't be around that. So James clear in atomic habits, he, he was asked what the most important habit was, and he said, it's the people you sur surround yourself with.

And I, I mentioned that because I. In midlife. We are all [00:34:00] expanding. We are evolving, and we are dropping the things that do not matter. And that's not to say that our friendships don't matter, but what it said, what is I'm saying is we get so clear on what does matter, that we're willing to let go of the things that aren't a match.

And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's how like if you've ever been broken up with either by a friend or by, you know, it's like friendships are a little different than dating, but not really. Like being broken up with sucks. And it's a gift to be able to evolve and expand out of a relationship that's not aligned with who you are becoming.

I love this idea of midlife butterfly because you know, a monarch is not playing with the worms. True. Definitely. She's out there with other, other butterflies. Yeah. She's not playing with caterpillars anymore. She's playing with butterflies. And so the, my point is, is that I'm always, I'm [00:35:00] not looking like, who do I need to break up with today?

But it's like, who am I becoming and is this relationship still a match? Because the last thing I'll say is, you girl only has so much time. Like we have big, beautiful lives. And so there are only so many seats at the table. And so women I coach and women I mentor, I'm like, why are you giving this person a seat at your table?

There are only so many seats. You need to excuse them and make room for who you want to attract in your life. Who's gonna mirror the energy that you have? And so again, a call to elevate yourself, work on yourself, pour into yourself, and then we start to attract the women who like we have together. We attracted each other.

Yes, we did. Because you're all amazing. Okay. That's me. That's, that's it. Really, really quickly, Katie, if I can just, it makes me think of this analogy. It makes me think of the analogy, I dunno if you guys have heard of this, of a train. Life is like a train and people are going to get [00:36:00] on and hop off as they need to.

And to me, I love that because there's not a lot of efforting, there's not a lot of figuring it out. You just, your train of life is going and then people are gonna hop on. And when they hop off, you know that their time, you know, was, was, was, was met and now they're moving on and you can too. So it's, it's a different way of thinking about what we just said.

All the breakups we talked about, you know, their purpose in your life was, you know, finished and complete and now you're on to the next thing. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. And that's true because that's the thing sometimes. Yeah, there are. Long term friendships, but that's sometimes it could be a person that we just meet for a few minutes and it can change our lives.

It doesn't have to be that long relationship because I mean, therefore they say sometimes it's for seasons for something that we need to learn at that very moment. So just cherish that moment and the, the, you know, the learning lessons and whatever you [00:37:00] get from there. And also, they also got something from us that's definitely right, but I guess it's also about that letting go of that codependency with our relationships because, uh, as Dana was saying, that we grow and it's okay, the flow and all that.

And, um, oh, I got lost in Fred. But so my, my point is like going back to. Choosing the kind of relationship that we want at this moment and letting go of those ones that don't serve us anymore. Because sometimes we are fearful of saying, but how am I gonna make new friendships? Right. And more, again, if we come into midlife, it's like, I'm not gonna find more friendships.

So, and it's like, no, I mean this friendship, even though it's me, I'm the one chasing them and stuff. So stop that. We're not from that anymore. It has to be a reciprocal, it needs to be nourishing both sides. It has to, you know, [00:38:00] it's a relationship. It's not a, you know, a, a once all a person, like just streaming from there.

So, yeah. Jen, what do you have to share? Well, another analogy, uh, my husband said this to me when I've had friends wake up with me and. Sometimes he told me that people are in your lives, they're a chapter, they're not the whole book. Exactly. And that really helped me kind of get perspective on it. Like you're saying, you know, you have something to learn from people even when there's a breakup.

And um, and they have something to learn from. You, learn from you. And it helped me just kind of be more at peace with it. That, you know, it isn't necessarily me. Maybe they were done with my chapter and I need to be done with theirs. That was, that's the hardest thing to accept. But, but like Dana was saying, you get to, you get to choose that.

And interestingly, so the other thing I was [00:39:00] thinking about, um, this kind of goes back to something Tracy was saying. I've had people come up to me who wanted to meet me and say, Hey, you know, I really, it was really funny. The, the woman was, it was a woman. She was like, Hey, I really like, um, I love the way that you dress.

So I just thought that we should be friends. And I admired her guts so much to come up to someone that you don't know, that you've, you know, you've seen 'em across the soccer field. And just to walk up to you, and, and first of all, it was very nice to be flattered, but you know, that that's one of the hardest things is, is finding a way to break the ice with new people and Yes.

And, you know, become friends. Like it's okay to just call up people and talk to them. That was revolutionary to me. Beautiful. Uh, yeah. So about breaking the ice, because I know there's a lot of women who, who feel alone right now. So what [00:40:00] would be some of your tactics to breaking the ice? Like this is like, this is wonderful approach.

I, do you have any ideas how you approach. Oh, Dana,

it is. So, okay, so this is, goes back to I'm in my midlife, so I don't care. I really don't care. I just don't, so I'll go up to, I, I'll just tell you what I did a couple weeks ago. There was a woman who spoke at my meeting and I went up to her and I was like, why have we never met and why aren't we already best friends?

Can I please have your number and invite you to coffee? And she was like, absolutely. And so, and then here's the, here's the kicker. I call, I texted her and I said, what you got for coffee? And so we put, we got it on the books. And so, and I will do i'll out myself too. It's like I am very. Selective about who I continue to pursue relationship.

I think I explained that. [00:41:00] And so I have a, I've had a bunch of coffee dates and after the first one I'm like, yeah, I'm good. You're amazing. Like, enjoy your life. And then they can get a second coffee date if it feels like it's, you know, there's momentum. It, the key is keep going, keep inviting, keep, keep being awkward.

Like, I love that Jen. The girl's like, you have great clothes, let's be friends. And then the next step is, yes, here's my number. What do you, when are you available in the next two weeks to get coffee? And if you're virtual, when are you available in the next two weeks to drink coffee on the Zoom and make avatars and funny faces?

I love that. Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah, and I do the same thing. I walk up to women often, um, and admire the, what they're wearing. But I am also in a special situation where I get to hear a lot of women speak and, um, I will absolutely, uh, go up to them and be like, Hey, I love what you said about X, Y, [00:42:00] Z, or whatever.

And, um, one of my best running friends actually, uh, she had just got done doing something, this is over 10 years ago now. And we've traveled together, we've run together, we've done a lot together. But I walked right up to her and said, Hey, I heard that you just finished this race. I was like, that's amazing.

Tell me about your experience. And we've been, you know, best, best of running friends for the past 12 years now. Um, so just, yeah, find something you like, walk up to him and tell him. I mean, that, that's, that's what it is. Yeah, I think it's also this approach of being open to it. Like the other day I went to the ATM, which didn't work, but at the, uh, it was good because then I met this lady and, uh, this young woman, and then we just keep walking to the other ATM and then at the end we end up watching the sun sunset and then had dinner and a drink, and we spent like three hours together.

And it was just fantastic. I don't know if we're gonna keep in contact or not, but just that connection for a few hours, it was so nourishing and so great. So again, it's also a [00:43:00] bit about not attaching to it and, and, uh, yeah, grow the relationship. If it feels like you know it, there's more in there. I mean, know, just let it go and enjoy that present moment in that.

Casey, what do you wanna share? I'm gonna say this, I don't know why it's easier for me. I, I mean, I talk to a lot of people every day in the community and what I do, um. It feels like it's less pressure. I went outta town and I went on a ski trip and I met this lady on the slopes, and I think we were both, so when you're trying something new, there's like, you're in this state of like, you don't know what you're doing, you don't care.

Like, I'm just here to try and do it. And so you're not worried about like what everybody else is doing. You're just like, I'm here to do this and have fun. And so I met this lady on the ski slopes and um, she was there by herself and we were taking a lesson together and we got to bond all morning. And then she was like, well, it's time for me to go, you know?

And she's like, oh, you're gonna go with your boyfriend and go [00:44:00] ski? And I'm like, no, come with us. And this lady, she came and had lunch with us and we skied in the afternoon together. And the one, the one thing I didn't do is I didn't say when we left, my boyfriend goes, you took a picture with her, but you didn't get her phone number.

And I said. I know, what was I thinking? I said it was just so, we had so much fun and I, so maybe it's just putting yourself out there in a community that you like and those, then you're surrounding yourself with it. But just, just letting it happen. I didn't go out that day saying, I'm gonna meet a new friend today, but I also wasn't against it.

I was like, I'm gonna go ski down this mountain. So I think just being open to it is such a big thing. Yes, definitely. Tracy. Yeah. So, um, a couple of things. I say go on a retreat. I think it's one of the best ways to connect with Oh yes, like minded, beautiful souls. I went on a retreat last, um, year and these are like people that I feel like are family at this point.

[00:45:00] When you go through a, a shared experience like that, it's just so easy to bond and get through all the superficial, you know, crap and just get straight to that, that bond. Um, I actually hosted my first retreat in January, and honestly I needed it, you know, it was a sisterhood retreat and I felt, again, so separate and realizing how much I need female companionship, so I.

Hosted a retreat and you know, brought them in. But I was thinking of two examples, just listening to you guys talk about how you saw someone and you went up to them like, man, I need to grow a pair. Because I'm thinking of two, two instances where I think a lot of times it's being kind, just simply being kind.

I think as women, we don't always. I don't, I don't know if we, again, the whole competitive thing. Um, I remember an instance a few years ago at my son's school. There was, we thought it was a school shooting. Literally every parent's worst nightmare. [00:46:00] I'm at home, my husband comes down, I was working out in our gym, and my husband comes down and says, Tracy, there's a lockdown at the high school.

And they think that there's, you know, been a school shooting. I just, I started running and my husband was like, what are you doing? You can't go to the school. I'm like, oh, watch me grab my keys. I don't know what I was going to do, but I was going to be there. I'm crying the whole way. There are helicopters flying over us, police SWAT teams.

I am just, and I get there and all these parents, um, have the same idea and we're all just going to this. It, it was the worst nightmare. You can, you can imagine it, it turned out to be, um, it, it wasn't a school shooting. Uh uh, someone thought they heard something and so. Luckily it wasn't what we thought it was.

But the point is, all of these parents were going through the same thing. And I'm sitting down on the lawn outside and this woman, we just kind of started talking and, oh no, she came up to me and she simply handed me a water bottle. And I was like, what, what's, what's happening? And I realized she was just handing me a [00:47:00] water bottle.

Like I don't know why. It was the kindest gesture at a moment where I was at my lowest and felt just terrified to have another human being go out of their way who did not know me, knowing what she's going through and to also offer me, uh, it has stayed with me. I didn't ask her to go to coffee. I should have.

I let that go, but I will never forget that moment. Um, and then one other story was I was at an Esther Hicks um, seminar. I dunno if you guys are know Esther Hicks, but I love her. Yes. And there was this woman sitting next to me. And I just fell in love with this woman. She was gorgeous. She was beautiful.

Her energy was amazing. The whole three hours we sat next to each other and at the end I wanted so badly to do what you guys did, just exchange numbers. And I was like, eh. That fear of rejection of her saying, no, I didn't. And again, she, she stayed on my mind. But, so anyway, I just wanted to share those stories.

Thank you. Yeah, just the kindness of people. [00:48:00] Thank you. Kindness, JAMA. I'm gonna say for the, if the phone number feels too intimidating, social media, um, I've been thinking about that too, of them on social media, which is kind of what I, how I started and stuff like that. So follow in on social media and get to know 'em.

And that builds like the, that like, then you feel like you know 'em a little bit more. If so, if that phone number is a little too much, like, Hey, are you on social media? I'd love to follow you. It's, it's a little safer, right? Yeah, so, so when you said that, I was like, you know what? Start, start small. Like, you know, and I was the biggest introvert ever, and it's, to me, I do things in like, baby steps.

And so it start, start small and start by following 'em on social media and then move up from there. So that's just a tip and idea of something. I thought when you said that. Thank you. That's a great idea. You have more ideas. Jen, what do you wanna say? So you guys are really inspiring me. It's funny, it's so funny.

I mean, things aren't coincidental, right? Um, they're [00:49:00] not, I, no, I was in a class yesterday with a woman who I've admired for a really, really long time. She's this, uh, very smart, funny, um, very popular writer. She's written for, um, the New York Times and Writer's Digest. And, and I have, we've been, it's funny because we've been Facebook friends, because we know people in common for probably three years.

And I've never met her in person, but yesterday she had a class in my area and I went to it. I took it and afterward she, she was like, well, first of all, when I got there, she's like, wait, you're Jennifer Chambers. I think we're Facebook friends. And so now I am really inspired because of you guys to actually follow up.

I'm gonna text her because she wanted me to text her afterwards. And I was like, well, she doesn't really want that, but she does and I'm gonna do it. So thank you. You guys inspired me. [00:50:00] Go for it, Dana. They know something that, just the theme that I'm picking up on here is that. In order to at least, like how do we make friends?

Yes. Bumble, um, uh, some friends of mine have had success on that and we gotta get out and put ourselves around women. And I was just thinking about like, I go to two women's groups a week and I went to a women's leadership conference on Friday and I'm in a podcast Mi Mistress Mind and I am in Kathy Heller's community.

And so we put ourselves around women and I think that both with Covid but also the patriarchy, let's be real, that's not a thing that is valued or celebrated. And we're really stepping probably in a, into an area that feels uncomfortable, but is so worth it. And it's been helpful too, to have my own [00:51:00] business.

'cause like part of the way that I. Um, create space for gorgeous magnetic, powerful women as clients is I go put myself around gorgeous, magnetic, powerful women. And I'm like, really? Are you, you're looking for a coach? I got you. But, so we can sense the energy and, you know, the more we can put ourselves around powerful, empowered, beautiful, also imperfect and not lying about it, women, the more likely we are to find the women who get seats at the table and feel really good about that.

Hmm. Yeah. And that's the cool part that, as you said with you, are in all these circles and programs and stuff, and we are here now that that's how we can also make these kind of. Friendships and you know, that we, that are aligned with us, what we are doing at, at the same time, because of this kind of, this specific group, it's like we keep growing, we keep evolving.

So [00:52:00] it's far also for self-growth because we, with our stories, just by sharing at this very moment, like we still like learning and getting new ideas and feeling inspired. So that's really the power of, of sisterhood. So thank you. Thank you so much. Uh, let's go for, uh, the last question of today. Well, the one before the last.

Um, what are some of the most powerful lessons you've learned from women in your life?

Wow.

Uh, I'm, I'm not gonna raise my hand, I'm just gonna go. This has been so recently, and it is the most powerful thing. It's when women show up as exactly who they are. We become lighthouses for every woman within our orbit. Yes. So I [00:53:00] recorded a podcast this week and I'm pretty sure I cried a couple times on the podcast and I was like, whoa, whatever it was.

And I have gotten more positive feedback from that episode than any of the ones that I planned in advance and put lipstick on for. And it's like the most powerful thing that I have learned from another woman is, it's okay to show up as exactly who you are. You don't need to be perfect. You can give all that up.

That's a narrative of the patriarchy and it's a lie. So let's set it aside and show up messy and show up crying and show up powerful and show up is exactly the way we are. Because that creates space for the next woman to do the same. Right? Like my favorite thing about this work is we're doing all doing podcasts and none of we, nobody's trying to be perfect.

No. It's just the message that's so empowering for me. Yes. And if we, if, and that's the thing that I'm taking, is like I don't have to do my life [00:54:00] perfect. I don't have to be the cupcake mom. I don't have to be the fastest runner. I don't have to have the most popular podcast. Like I just have to show up as exactly who I am, even if I don't know most of the time.

And let that be okay. Yeah, because it's okay. It is okay. As we were just saying before, like we came a bit late today. Everyone, you know, had setbacks, whatever, and then here we are. It's just taking our space and then having the vulnerability to share that also to say, you know what, just allow me, because I need a little bit more space, our time.

It's just so valuable. And then at the end, we're just here and this. Sharing from the heart, and that was matter. It's perfection. It just goes to the trash.

Um, Casey Danny kind of said exactly what I was gonna say is when we throw show up as our authentic self, that's when it, that's when everything aligns. That's when [00:55:00] we find those true friendships, those true meaningful things. And I was just taught you have to do it perfect. And when I let go of those things that the people that I have met and am closest to is, it's not really when I'm normally dressed the best.

It's when I'm out doing something fun and something silly and just letting go and just being myself. Um, that I connect with somebody on a deeper level. And I, I think that every single one of us in here is a reminder of, um, just showing up as them. And who they are that day. And it may not be whether we're crying, whether we're laughing.

Just show up as you are that day. And that's one of the most powerful things, I think. Yes, it is. Mm. Tracy. Yeah. Can we just all agree that being perfect is the most boring, uninteresting thing ever? Yeah. I constantly reminded, I'm just what Dana and Casey, what [00:56:00] you guys both said, I'm just realizing the women that I follow online, that I really resonate.

I mean, Kathy Heller is a perfect example. When they show up exactly as they are, it is the most beautiful empowering thing ever. It's so much more interesting than someone trying to to be perfect. So anyway, that was just a sidebar, but I was gonna say, I think I've learned from women how strong we are.

And how resilient and how layered, and it's how, how beautiful the layers are. You can have a woman who is incredibly powerful and then she's in tears the next moment. Um, and then she gets right back up and just listening to your stories, I've had the ability to, you know, um, to listen to all of your podcast.

Blown away. I mean, I've been spending months with you guys and had no idea about your stories, your back stories. Many of them would've broken me. Over and over again. And I would, I would've had no idea because of the beautiful souls that you are, of what you've been [00:57:00] through. But that's what makes us, it's those battles that, that turn us into the beautiful souls that we are.

Um, but the last thing I would say, I think what I've learned the most is from the younger generation. So, so many times we're harder on the younger generation, like, oh my God, this younger generation, I've always marveled and maybe because I have so many children, my four sons that I've learned to embrace it.

But when I was in corporate America. Everyone got upset with the younger generation. 'cause they came in and they asked for the promotion right away and they weren't gonna work their lives away. And they wanted to go on vacation all the time. And who do they think? And I thought, good for them. Good for them.

They're sh we're upset with them because they're doing what we weren't brave enough to do. Yeah. They're all telling each other their salaries as a hiring manager, there was a time where we, there was a whole discussion about you guys should not be sharing what you make. And I was like, absolutely, you should not.

Of course. And so I went to my team and was like, guys, don't [00:58:00] do it. Do not share blah, blah, blah. And someone in my group was like, that doesn't feel good. And I was like, wait, what? And they're like, that doesn't feel good. Why can't we share what we ma? And I just had to stop and think about it like. Yeah, that you guys have a point.

Instead of me staying on my, no, you're not supposed to. I had to ask why. Yeah, why can't, why can't you? And the so I agree with that and not wanting to slave their lives away and they wanna get in and be the CEO right away. Good for them. It doesn't say that. It doesn't mean that they're going to be, but why not want that?

But the thing is, watching the younger generation of women celebrate themselves, Lizzo. Saying, I am beautiful, exactly how I am. And with all the haters saying she needs to go sit down, she's not shaped like your traditional model. And she's like, it drives her even further, watching women say, I'm beautiful, I'm good at this.

I'm like, I could have never, I always had to downplay [00:59:00] and dim that light to be liked or so I thought. But to see these women, I just think it's powerful and it's beautiful. And I've never looked at anyone celebrating themselves and thought less of them, and it makes it endears me to them even more. So that I think is the biggest lesson I've learned from the younger generation.

Beautiful. And thank you for bringing that out. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. We didn't dare at that point because it was different. I mean, things keep shifting, so Hell yeah. Oh, beautiful. Uh, jama. Yeah, Tracy, I totally stole my thunder on that one. I was gonna say the how resilient women are. Um, you know, everybody has a story.

I've, you know, I learned this lesson at a really young age and I'm glad I did. Um, but how resilient and powerful they are and how they continue to show up with grace. And so that's the thing. I have seen people who have had bad things happen to it and it eats them up and they turn into, you know, [01:00:00] awful individuals because they aren't able to process it.

But the majority of the people, of the women continue to show up with grace. And that to me is one of the most inspiring things. Like, you can be bitter, you can be angry, or you can continue to show up with grace. And the resilience in showing up with Grace is one of the, the biggest lessons that I've learned, um, and how to do it.

Thank you. Thank you, JAMA. Yes, Jen. Similar to, let's say, csun. Also, I think the, the biggest lesson I've learned from the women in my life and the women that I admire is that they own it. You know, women that own their power, women that believe their own press. You know, I think that's the most incredibly inspiring thing, and I aspire to that very much so.

But, but [01:01:00] seeing women be themselves and not apologetic, just this is who I'm, and this is what we're doing, and I just, I'm learned so much from that. Um, I feel like I absorb a little bit more of that when I see another woman do that, if that makes sense. I, I, I just want, I want that so much for everyone, but so I, I find so much strength in seeing other people.

Own their own power and be themselves. And the women who do that are just so incredibly inspiring. Yes, they are. Uh, you are all inspiring and yeah, showing. I say like, uh, I run out of words. I'm just so, so grateful that you ladies are here with me at this very moment and sharing this, uh, beautiful episode with [01:02:00] me and your experiences and the way you see life and the way you experience life.

And, uh, as somebody already said, like our podcast, our stories are so freaking powerful and so beautiful. And despite whatever pain or things we have been going through, we have that resilience and that conviction and devotion to keep going, to build our. Dreams to have better lives, to feel good. And, uh, and yeah, I'm just super grateful for you to be part of my life.

And I want to close with another question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what's a pleasure that you enjoy the most?[01:03:00] 

Whoever wants to go first, just go and, okay. My, my greatest pleasure in life and something I've been doing for uh, a long time is running like I am a better, happier person after a run, after I'm able to get in my run. I actually structured my business around being able to run and all the things like that was a huge goal when I started years ago.

I didn't wanna be the busiest photographer out there. Okay. I wanted to be able to do what I loved first, and, and I love photography. I'm not saying that I don't love photography. I wanted it on my terms, and I wanted to be able to run and get my workouts in. That is what, like drives me, is to be able to get that in movement.

I, I feel like, is a blessing in my life. Mm. Thank you jama. Yeah. Massage. Hands down a massage. Massage. Okay. It's so enjoyable. I do not even see it as a, um, a splurge. I see it as a gift to my soul and [01:04:00] my body and my mind, and a 90 minute massage will change the next two weeks, so I try to get them biweekly.

Nice. Yes. Yeah, for me, it's kind of a daily thing. I like to play music, so I, I play ukulele. Um, I was actually trained to sing. I don't do that anymore. Um, but, so I played music and if I can play music every day, I feel whole. So that's a kind of a, I just do it for myself. But that's the one thing that I tried to make a list one time of all the things I need to feel whole, and it was exercise and playing music were the top of the list.

So for me, those are my, my pleasures. Mm-hmm. Okay. This is gonna sound like a shameful plug, and I apologize. But the reason why my business is called a beautiful fix is because I asked myself that [01:05:00] exact question, what is it that lights me up? And it's everything that you guys answered. It's beautiful things and moments and experiences like this panel right here.

But it's the massages, it's music. I mean, music can take me to a whole nother plane instantly. It's nature. It's going on walks. So I know it's a little bit of cheating saying all the things, but it's laughter. It's just beautiful moments, beautiful things, things that just elevate you, your state instantly.

Yeah, I, I agree with you, Tracy. Um, I don't know that I can just say one thing. I think it's just, I, I mean, I love the lake. It lights me up. I love working out. Um, but I, I also love deep connection and just being present and living, finding those what lights other people up, lights me up when I see them. It just lights my soul on fire and I get so excited.

Yeah. Casey, can I just say really quickly, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt Casey. That is so true [01:06:00] about you. You are like a professional cheerleader. You get so excited and celebrate people when we are in meetings. You are in the chat. Just, you are great. You're off. I mean, you're just naturally one of the most beautiful.

I, we keep saying this word, beautiful souls, but really, I just wanted to say that when you said that. That is so true. That is so true. Thank you. Yeah. And I second that. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think the more present we get to be, the more we actually get to enjoy whatever we're doing. And it can be a pleasure every time, right?

As you say Casey, that just this connection, this, this panel of, you know, great conversation. Such a fucking pleasure. Yeah, I mean, we can, we can have pleasure of almost everything. If we share, we choose to [01:07:00] see it that way. So, yes. And closing with that pleasure of this conversation of this panel, uh, put sisters, thank you so much for your presence.

Thank you so much for being in my life. Thank you so much for your energy, your love, your radiance. And yes, thank you for being in midlife butterfly.