Manhood Matters Podcast
Conversations around challenges dominating a man's journey through life. These topics are explored by real, everyday friends, with a lot of experience... And we have the occasional expert guest.
Manhood Matters Podcast
Can Men Be Faithful
What if the stereotype that good men are hard to find is just a myth? Join us on this enlightening journey with guests Leon Cohen, Delva Michel, and Justin Bradford as we challenge preconceived notions about men's faithfulness. Leon’s unwavering commitment to his marriage of nearly 18 years sets the stage for a discussion on the importance of surrounding oneself with loyal individuals. Through candid conversations, we explore how the company we keep can shape our beliefs about fidelity, casting new light on monogamy as a conscious choice rather than an obligation.
Our exploration takes a personal turn as we navigate the evolution of monogamy, combining personal experiences with biblical principles. I share my journey through marital challenges and how choosing fidelity amidst societal pressures has reshaped my views on commitment. Delva, my co-host, offers a poignant recount of emotional infidelity, highlighting the nuances of boundaries and respect within relationships. The dialogue reminds us that genuine love requires discipline, communication, and the courage to uphold promises, all of which are essential in fostering meaningful partnerships.
As we dissect stereotypes and explore the complexities of desire, we underscore that personal growth and self-reflection are integral in attracting fulfilling, faithful relationships. From setting clear standards to challenging our own biases, the episode offers a roadmap to understanding and nurturing love based on integrity and mutual respect. Tune in for an engaging conversation that promises to redefine how we perceive loyalty and the daily commitment required to sustain authentic connections.
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Host: StéphaneAlexandre
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Music by Liam Weisner
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Okay, now you start talking to her. You're seducing her a little bit. You guys order some drinks up. Okay, now she starts, go deeper. Shirt comes off, her clothes come off. Now y'all in the bed. Now y'all are tussling. Now go deeper. Then you wake up the next morning, lose yourself. Would you be happy if your life was on film and it just captured that moment.
Speaker 2:Damn. That's either the death of the ego or it's going to light up a new, a new you, because you're going to be like, oh, I would say you know this is going to sound crass, but I have to say it. Can men be faithful? This seems to be this crazy consensus. It's kind of a rare thing and all the good ones are taken, but maybe there is a correlation between what you're thinking and what you're attracting. I don't know. Just maybe the men that I know are wonderful people. They are all in great relationships. So I invited two of my friends, leon Cohen and Delva Michelle, who have both been in longstanding marriages and are faithful men. I've also invited a young man, justin Bradford, because of his solid philosophy and why he believes. I appreciate you guys so much for joining the conversation today. If it's your first time, make sure you hit the follow button so you could know when the episodes are released every Monday. Welcome to Manhood Matters. Let's get right to it. Thanks for being here again. I appreciate you guys. Leon, back with us. I definitely wanted you here for this conversation. You're actually the first person I thought about when I thought about this particular subject. I agree, delva, I had to call you and ask you if you were qualified to have this conversation and, justin, back in the living room with us. So I kind of know where your heart is and kind of what your philosophy is. But it'll be interesting to get your take on this as well.
Speaker 2:I talk to a lot of women, you know, and the consensus is there are no good men out there. Right, we hear that a lot. The other thing that we hear is men cannot be faithful. Right, there's infidelity. If there is, if given the opportunity that men will step out. And I thought that's not what I've seen. I've seen a lot of that. Obviously, right, I'm not, I don't live under a rock. I've seen a lot of it, but that's not who I am and that's not what I've seen. You talked about this, justin, before. We are the average of the five people we hang out with. I guess if you hang out around a bunch of guys, that's really what they're about you know you'd be tempted. But if you're hanging around men who by the same laws, then it's very hard for you to do that and brag about it.
Speaker 2:So I want to start with you, leon, like. The reason I thought about you first is I never forgot this. I had just become a manager at ADT, so we were working there. I want to say the year is 2010. We went on some convention or whatever, right? Yeah, I remember now, and we were in Savannah, georgia.
Speaker 2:That I remember because I had to come from. I was in Huntsville, alabama, and I had to travel all the way to Savannah. And I remember being in the car. We were going out to dinner Myself, leon and some other dude. We saw this woman, you know, by any standard was a beautiful woman, and the dude made a comment and I made a comment and Leon didn't make a comment. So you know I forgot what the question was. Maybe we asked you for your opinion or if you'd be interested in your, and I and I can't even paraphrase, but I remember that the gist of it was you came back with saying I have zero interest and even looking at other women, cause I'm a married man, that kind of shit doesn't interest me. I'm not distracted by it. How long you been married 18 years.
Speaker 3:It'll be 18 years in July.
Speaker 2:So 2010 was what? For you then? That was year number two, just year number two, and that was your mindset. So talk to us about what your philosophy is, what is the compelling drive behind that and what's keeping you on the straight path.
Speaker 3:So the biggest thing for me, what has evolved, is I told you, like I said, this is my second marriage and I was I wouldn't say quote unquote unfaithful in the first marriage, but there was, it was a difference.
Speaker 3:What changed for me is that after I divorced as I mentioned in the previous podcast, is that was a probably the hardest thing that I've ever had to do in my life, because it was admitting that I had failed and it was one of the first times that I ever had to admit failure. I mean, I've had challenges and circumstances I've had to work through before, but not a failure, you know, and not a broken, a breaking of a promise. So biggest thing for me is that when I got married the second time, I said marriage is a choice, right. You can choose to be married, you can choose to not be married. Monogamy is a choice, right. I could, I could be single tomorrow and go sleep with as many women as I want to Correct, but if I've pledged my life to this one and I've pledged fidelity to this one, then that is a promise that I need to uphold. But biologically.
Speaker 2:we have a certain need, we have a certain desire. We lust after women In this society. Right, we live in a monogamous society and many societies are not. And what they're saying in those societies is we're going against you know, our natural desire. So what's keeping you from deviating from that path? Or do you totally feel like is it? Is it totally natural for you? Is it effortless or no?
Speaker 3:of course, it's not effortless. I will be a robot, but the thing about it is this you will see beautiful women, beautiful men, all the time, depending on, like I say, if you're a woman, you're going to see a beautiful man, I'm glad you clarified that shit real quick.
Speaker 3:An attractive right, an attractive man. If you're a man, an attractive woman, right, you're going to see beautiful people all the time, you're not oblivious to it. But I have tried, just as Delvin said, not to put myself in situations where I'm going to compromise the principle of marriage. Right, so I don't hang out in the clubs, you know. Do I get approached by women? Yes, I have been several times, but the thing that has kept me is that vow and that promise of that it will do more damage and for however long, that little time is that you, you know, have sex with this other person then, to nine minutes.
Speaker 4:yeah, you are, it's a record Speak for yourself.
Speaker 2:It depends on who you are.
Speaker 4:Speak for yourself, I'll be out there for two hours I got to talk to you.
Speaker 3:Who are you?
Speaker 4:trying to please.
Speaker 3:Hey me. So, whatever that amount of time may be, you know is, is it, is it worth the the residual of it? You know I say no, I gotta manage two relationships. Oh, so much fucking effort, yeah, and and you know what, if you know what, if it what, if it's bad, now you gotta try to get out. Well, I mean, yeah, you know, trying to try to get out. Or I always got to look over my shoulder that I could run out to her in the street and she can say I had your man.
Speaker 2:Right, not too much Stuck on your name. Not too many brothers named Leon Right.
Speaker 3:So I mean, when you, when you weigh the pros and cons of it, you know it's just for me it's just not, it's just never been worth it. Yeah, ok, I see her, I acknowledge her, she's fine. She ain't the first fine woman that I've ever seen in my life. She won't be the last. She doesn't need that acknowledgement. And the reason why I'm prefacing being quote unquote, monogamous first time versus the second time, the first time I may have actually entertained a conversation, and you know, but the difference between me at 28 and me at 35 is that growth, to know there is more damage to be done by entering that conversation. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Or it's not worth it, it's not yeah, yeah, you start wearing it, wearing the risk of it. So you know, like I said, monogamy for me is a choice, delva.
Speaker 4:Yes, sir, how long have you been married, brother 22,. I mean 19 years, but we've been together 22. Okay, I was about to say why are you?
Speaker 2:confused 19 years. That's a beautiful thing. So question that I asked you when I called you was a very personal question. You know you want to share. Do you remember what I asked If I ever stepped out? Yeah, yeah, You're comfortable with answering that question.
Speaker 4:Absolutely All right, go for it. I have emotionally cheated on my wife once.
Speaker 2:Break that down for us. Okay. What do you mean by emotionally?
Speaker 4:cheated on. To me it wasn't, but because she saw it as that, so I accepted it Because she wasn't comfortable with it. There's a young lady that I know in Connecticut. She was going through a tough time in her marriage. She reached out to me for advice so we were talking every night, mostly her marriage. She reached out to me for advice, so we were talking every night mostly on um yahoo messenger.
Speaker 2:That's how old we are. Damn, I didn't know that was a thing. I I listen, I ain't gonna lie to you, I don't, I don't even know okay, yeah, it's still a thing actually but why you did like this with your fingers? Because then she has to be on a computer, a typewriter it was a type I mean, we started on this, but you know it's we had oh there was.
Speaker 4:There was a messenger, okay he took a lot of time with a t9 uh keyboard, but oh my god over the head, okay yeah, um, yes, and then we got comfortable. Yeah, the conversation started to go into the night, but it's always about her and her husband.
Speaker 4:One night I was in bed and my wife woke me up. I think it was like 3 am and she said I'm sorry, your phone keep going off. I don't have a lock on my phone, we never have passwords and all that. She doesn't check my phone. I don't check hers Right, but she felt the need because it was going and the first message she sent me was she called me Poppy when is she? From. She was from Connecticut, she was Haitian, but she was born here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I meant. Like so yeah.
Speaker 4:So she's not Latina, but Haitians will call you Poppy too, uh, that's why she woke me up. She was like what's, what's happening? Who's this? I'm like, oh my god. I'm like, all right, this is what it is so you explained to her what it was right then and there and I'm like you know what it stops.
Speaker 4:Now picked up the phone, called her and I say it's my fault, I'm not blaming you, but we can't never talk again because my wife is not comfortable with it and I understand why I wouldn't be comfortable either. I'm like I hope you understand that she was like. I respect that. I'm like my wife is listening. You know you don't have to say anything, but know that we can't talk anymore. That was the last time as far as physically stepping out. Never I never had the need to feel like I need something else and then I always want. I said to my wife, I to myself as well I never want to put my wife in a situation where she feels like she has to be uncomfortable, not even knowing what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, never. It's funny you mentioned the thing about the phones, but there is such freedom. I got to say in my last relationship I was married for 10 years Now I've been married. We're on our third year. In both relationships I've been the example of monogamy. Relationships have been the example of monogamy even when I had reasons to kind of feel that, as we mentioned about the, the last podcast we talked about, is it ever the woman's fault? I could have conjured up in my head a million reasons exactly why?
Speaker 2:well, this was the, this is why I was then. There was the need or whatever it was, but I always felt like, if I have to get to that point, I don't need to be in that relationship. So, going, going over to you, young man, what is your philosophy on monogamy and fidelity? Do you believe you can be in a monogamous relationship? Is that the goal, or what are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I'm very biblical as far as the courting of a relationship and how to do so. In Ephesians it talks about like how to make your wife holy by washing her with the word and all that and instructing on how to be a good wife and appears beautiful, but not externally. But when it talks about a man and a woman, it obviously talks about two becoming one in the flesh. But, more importantly, in Kings which, referring to Solomon who had 700 wives, was the richest man. I mean he was like the grand of all grand. I don't remember the exact verse, but I think it was in Second Kings where it says young men or young kings, do not spend your strength on women. The one who ruined kings, and it's a very intentional word right there where he says women, not woman, and he's singular.
Speaker 1:It's plural for a reason because I mean even dating it's like those DMs get hit up Like you talked about the DMs.
Speaker 1:Dating it's like those dms get hit up like you talked about the dms is what they use now, like there's options, which gives me the opinion of who to interact with and who to take stuff from and who to not tolerate, which is a good thing, right, that I don't have to settle and that I can have options to court out.
Speaker 1:And it's not like just because she's beautiful now I'm instantly going to be attracted to just her. But even to that extent's like I know, when I do get into that serious relationship, that I am going to be a monogamous man. But it's a lot of the principles that are already being said before me, even with you just said, as far as the comfort of not needing to worry about your phone, as far as what he talked about not needing to even emotionally cheating, right, it's like doing to others as they would do unto you. It's like I wouldn't want my woman talking to some dude. And like crying about a relationship, because a shoulder to cry on turns into a to ride on. You know what? A shoulder to cry on turns into a to ride on, to ride on.
Speaker 2:I forgot how biblical you are keeping that shit clean, but I appreciate it Trying my PR. You know, Trained, but no in regards to oh and that's very true, by the way, very, it's extremely true. I speak from experience.
Speaker 1:I will tell you but to what you said. Also, as far as just like um, going and learning to keep your eyes to yourself, your emotions to yourself, because of maturity. I've been through it too, cause, like maturity comes from wisdom, wisdom comes from experience. I've been around long enough to know what's right from what's wrong. And if I even open the door for opportunity, like it talks about in Proverbs heavily on just the ways of a seductive woman and how honey would drip from her lips, basically saying that their speech is better than ours.
Speaker 1:But in listening to that you are an ox bringing yourself to the slaughterhouse, knowing that at the end of your life, when your flesh and body are spent, you will groan and say how my heart hated discipline and I spurned correction. So like, if you only look for lust, you're never going to find somebody worth loving. Because love is a, it's a symbol, but the substance is sacrifice right. Everybody wants to love or be loving, but nobody's really willing to sacrifice the lust part of them to actually show that they're loving, show that they're faithful, show that they're in it for the long run. So as far as, when that woman does come and I choose willingly that you are the one that I'm happy to settle down with not settle for, but settle down then it's a matter of communication boundaries and knowing what we're actually trying to achieve here, because I'm not going to be the secondary mom in my relationship.
Speaker 1:I'm not the goo-goo-ga-ga type of this and that I'm very. These are the roles. Eve was made from the rib to be a helper. It talks about this a lot in 1 Timothy as well. As far as a woman's role versus a man's and if a man is worthy of submitting to what his standard should be, how he should lead, how he should love, and because I'm going to be the man that's following those principles and I've first already submitted to Christ, it's like I would expect that woman to follow in line and submit to the man.
Speaker 2:Would you say it's easy? Actually, it's never easy.
Speaker 4:Easier.
Speaker 2:It's easier if you're principled in that way and you're rooted in the Bible in that sense, because I'm not Right, so would you say? You know, I'm a believer. Obviously I'm surrounded by three. And Leon just frowned, looked at me like nigga, what? No, I mean I was raised around it, I mean it was all around me and I've read the Bible. You know that's not a conversation, but I will tell you that I'm very spiritual but I'm not as rooted in the word as you are, not nearly. I don't know so many people who are. By the way, in terms of like, you know your passages well and you can quote them, but not just to say some wild dumb shit, but you actually use them in a way that it has everything to do with what we're talking about and it makes sense and it applies, and it applies in real life. I think if most people use it that way, it would be more, it would be better received, as opposed to just quoting it just like nonsensically. Do you find that it's easier for you to dismiss that temptation?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I'll say why. Because it became easier once I stopped believing in God but started to know God, like there's a difference between reading the Bible and learning the Bible, because I treat it like a study guide underline everything, circle it. I mean every day at four in the morning I'm posting a passage out of it. Every day I'm texting 10 of my friends and my accountability group my verse of the day and the interpretation. Every single day, or even today, like at seven o'clock, we'll have a righteous reset and it's probably 75 men from ages 25 to 50. And that's a group that I lead at 22 to where people come to me to get biblical guidance on how to righteously reset themselves.
Speaker 1:Because with me and my past, especially in Cashville, nash Vegas, whatever you want to call it I was a player, serial player. I'm talking about Australian cattle dog. I'm talking about I'm the light skin on tender gold 500 matches in two weeks and it's over. It's like sushi date. All right, we're going to play Jenga, all right. Loser got a back massage, all right, same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lost myself to lust, the biggest demon. Lost my community but felt like I was gaining financial freedom. So at the time, externally I was winning, but inside I was losing, and to have the awareness, to internalize. That was everything. Because then, when I start to know God, it's like that moral compass and the conviction is what pops out, because what I would call my spiritual gifting is discernment and the ability to take what's big and scary and make it very simple and warming To where, even if you're ungodly, you feel guilt. All these things that we have when we don't even know God. When you know God, it only heightens itself. So, like with my past self, it wasn't that I made a decision, it's that I felt disgust.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to ask you how you would answer to that, but those guys have lived much longer. They've been in long relationships. How have you maintained this? You know this fidelity to your marriage, to your woman, even when you could have gotten easily, could have gotten away with it. You, as a traveling musician, you're gone a lot Weeks at a time, so there's no like, oh, they'll know me, you're all the way in freaking Madagascar and you know, on the East coast of Africa doing a concert If someone meets you. I've always asked men this question. I said you know, if you could just go ahead and be with someone never even know the person's name, they don't have any way to contact you, they don't even know your name, they just see you on stage. You like you, whatever hour, whatever setting, would you do it knowing that there is no way this ever follows you anywhere?
Speaker 4:obviously I wouldn't, because I have not right. And then those situations present themselves all the time. It goes back to the work. I don't want men to take this and run with it and make excuses. Oh well, that's the way we're wired. But you have to do the work for yourself. I'm going to tell you one way I keep myself out of trouble is to never I think you said that too don't put yourself in a position where you know you can't get out. That that's one. That's why I don't go out and I cut some friends out Because, like you say, you are the average of your friends, right?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 4:So if you know your friends in a certain way, cut that.
Speaker 2:And that's the majority of all these musicians anyway.
Speaker 4:Absolutely and.
Speaker 2:I hate to just put them all in a box, but that's shit, I've lived it.
Speaker 4:That's why I mean if they a lot of guys you see I'm playing with that will never be to my house, we'll never go out for drinks, we'll never go anywhere. But I'm going to tell you one thing If you don't do the work, there is no way you could be faithful because of the way we are as men. There's an estimated 8 to 11 million of animal species out there just on land and ocean. Only 11 of them 1, 2, five, eleven they actually have life partners. Even then they step out if the the female can't give birth or the male, uh, have a lower gene that the female wants. So there's really none of them. That's really monogamous. So, which means that's just the way we're wired. But if you do the work, if you respect your principle, you set some principle and stick to them, you could do it, and then it becomes easier. Beautiful women's all going to be around, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean, wherever you go, there's this club that I play. I'm playing in tonight. There's three bartenders, beautiful people, it's funny. Not recently one came to me. He said why are you so mean? He said like you've been coming here for about two years.
Speaker 1:You never asked me for my name if I need a drink, I come to the bar and order a drink. I don't need to know your name and it's so environmental. I always give people this question because it makes them like, sit down on the on the way, we're hardwired. And I ask it to a girl actually who says, well, no, I got guy friends, but they're just First. I'll make them call that guy friend and say, hey, I'm feeling for you. Would you want to see me too? And they fold.
Speaker 1:But even away from that, even just like off the principle, I go okay, a Lamborghini, we'll call it a Rolls Royce. If you lock that car, you would trust that it locks. Absolutely Everybody would trust that you click the. It's a nice $300,000 car, it's gonna lock. Would you park it in the hood? I don't know, probably not. But you trust the locks Exactly Because the environment is dangerous. Yes, I trust my girl, I trust myself, but I know the environment is dangerous. So why would I put my nice most valuable asset, most valuable asset, my time that I've spent building with this person, the energy I've connected over the foundation and the plan that we're trying to accomplish why would I go, take it into the hood for one night, even though I still trust the locks.
Speaker 2:That is good, that is very good. Are we then saying, based on that analogy you just made there, that environment obviously plays a big factor, but could we not transcend beyond those temptations? Regardless of environment, you could.
Speaker 1:but it's more tempting. Why would you open the door to the devil when you see that he's knocking and you can look through the peephole? Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Let's see so 18 years. Have there not been situations that have presented themselves, or have at least been tempting Absolutely?
Speaker 2:Oh well how tall are you? 6'2", 6'3", because that seems to be under your body Almost 6'4". Yeah, that's everybody's list, right? What are you 6'1"? Justin, I'm 6'0" 6'0", 6'3" I got some boots on.
Speaker 4:Hey, I'm 5'7". It's available to me.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying? Same bro. So so you know. Um, yeah, you meet one of those. You know, I didn't mean to interrupt, but you definitely. You walk in the room, you meet one of those criteria that the first thing these women say ask them to describe the list. So they do, they want first and they say some shallow shit, like well, you gotta be over six feet tall. You know, I'm like, yeah, that's what you're about to get hurt because you said nothing of substance.
Speaker 2:That should be like yeah, that's what you're about to get hurt Because you said nothing of substance. That should be on the list if that's what you like, but it can't be not. It can't be the first thing on the list. But go ahead, brother, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:No. So I'm just saying you know there are, you know I'm not Superman and that was the thing that came out of the first divorce is to realize that vulnerability, that you're not Superman, that you do fail, that you do have frailties, that you do. And that was the hardest part for me in that first divorce was admitting that failure, admitting that I was not the person that in my mind I thought I was. And that was tough because you have to confront you and the image of who you thought you were and you realize that you are not. But where I was going with that in the 18 years is that? So you met me at year two. Have there been times over that 16 year period that there have been vulnerabilities? Of course, and probably for her, but I never want to know it, I would never ask her, but what has sustained it is God and his grace. When those situations occur or have occurred, something happens to make them not go forward or further than what?
Speaker 2:they Just an initial thought.
Speaker 3:Right, that initial quick you know, fleeting thought, or even a conversation. Right, you might be in conversation with somebody and it turns left and you're like, oh you got to remove yourself.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're like oh, you got to remove yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're like. Oh, you know, it just starts out as a friendly deal and then it becomes something that is going to go left.
Speaker 2:So you know, it's interesting. When I was much younger, I really had almost nothing to pull from. There were no mentors, there were no dudes around me. All the guys that I hung out with were older than me were no mentors. There were no dudes around me. All the guys that I hung out were older than me and they would end up looking up to me because I had no one to look up to. You know, I would. I would be friends with guys who were 10 years older than I was and they were all doing dumb shit, including not just doing, but bragging about the fact that they had many women and things like that.
Speaker 2:So that's what I saw. I kind of thought that's just the way it was how it was supposed to be. And I had a conversation with one guy one time a long, long time ago. This dude was just roughly about my age and he made he kind of alluded to what you talked about, justin, is how to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The conversation from another woman came up and he basically said why would I ever need to do that? And they weren't married, they were just dating. But his whole mindset was if she would ever do that to me. And I found out yeah is, and I think he goes. I think about that. I think about that pain and discomfort and I'm not willing to do that to someone else.
Speaker 3:That's that same you know, that's that's been, that's been a stopping factor for me as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that is somebody who's done the work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and other times we're talking about like a very young person.
Speaker 2:at that point he might have been 20, 21. You know what I mean and this is. You know I was around that age then. Yeah, just kind of like Justin here. But you know that wasn't my environment. That was the exception, right.
Speaker 2:So in my first marriage, that marriage was damned from the beginning. You know, it was a lot of turmoil, a lot of fights and again, like I said, she is not a bad person per se. You know it was just. We weren't meant to be together. You know, we kind of fought. I got to tell you like in a month, in 30 days, we might have two good days in those 30 days. We're talking hell. And you knew me then I was miserable, right. It was just really, really bad. Again, no shade on her, it's just what it was.
Speaker 2:When the opportunity presented itself, I took advantage of it and I never felt good about it. It was something that I thought made sense. It was almost something rebellious in the sense to where I was disrespectful, to where I didn't even need to hide it. I remember feeling like I had lost myself, like there was a sense of hopelessness. There was a sense of just, I don't know who I am. What do you say to someone or how do you help guide a man who is struggling with that and that is not rooted in the church? I guess I'm good.
Speaker 1:I actually like he speaks on doing the work, like last year when I talked to that coach and he said he couldn't coach me. I was like because you said that I need just one session and he was like no. I was like yes, and then I that I need just one session and he was like no. I was like yes, and then I pitched my price at him. He accepted it. He was like you know what Fine it's February 1st, it'll be Black History Month. I got you. It's like I love it. Now, the only thing that he actually told me from the first call he was interested in diving deeper as far as my perspective was my outlook on women and my relationship dynamic and how I view that and what I'm looking for right now. All that good stuff. So in my conversation with him, there was one thing that I took out of it which was fantastic, and the second thing is what somebody could do in that situation you just talked about. The first thing that he helped me realize which a lot of high-performing men will encounter. The first thing that he helped me realize which a lot of high-performing men will encounter is a leakage in the way that they compartmentalize themselves so, like as an ambitious man, I'm ambitious all around.
Speaker 1:Spiritually, I want to get better. Physically I want to get better. Financially, mentally, relationally, I always want to get better. What that means is I push myself to a point of exhaustion. I see what the bar looks like, but the next time I go at it, what do I want? More, more, more, and I would do that all around, but it would leak over with my relationships, meaning I would talk to a girl Okay, she's funny, she's pretty, she's not that smart. Okay, next date she's funny, she's pretty, she got to be smart. Okay, she's smart, she has a bad family relationship. Well, that's my new bar Next date, funny, pretty, smart, good family, bunch of exes or a bunch of. And it would keep on stacking to where I was trying to like, almost craft this perfect girl when it's not about it's not perfection, it's progression.
Speaker 1:So it's finding a girl that is compatible to the things that I don't want, but she's willing to work on the things that I want out of sacrifice and developing herself. So when he gave me that awareness of where I was falling short as a man just by conversating with him this is not a licensed therapist, this is a guy that played for the Kansas City Chiefs, had his career cut short and now he's in Miami doing coaching, and he was a guy that told me he couldn't coach me but gave me the best coaching I've ever received, cause that awareness is what's going to help me actually build a foundation with the right woman and bring fruit out of it. But now the second thing that he told me on that call cause he's very like, deeply connected spiritually not biblical at all. But then the guy had me walk through the desire to where it could either lead you to darkness or light. If it leads you to light, that's going to be something scary. If it leads you to dark, good job. You had the death of the ego Meaning if you said, okay, what if I did holler at that girl? Or if you said what if I did go to that bartender.
Speaker 1:Well, now take it farther, because that's just the surface. Okay, you're forging Steve. Okay, she says something. Okay, you get her name. Okay, you get her. Now go deeper. Okay, she sends you a text when you're leaving. Okay, she says there's a hotel right here. Okay, you meet her at the hotel right Now. You get the room and she's right there behind you, the security cameras. Now you're on camera with her and then you go up to the room and go deeper. Okay, now you start talking to her. You're seducing her a little bit. You guys order some drinks up. Okay, now she starts. Get go deeper. Shirt comes off, her clothes, come off. Now. Y'all on the bed. Now y'all are tussling it. Now go deeper. Then you wake up the next morning, lose yourself. Would you be happy if your life was on film and it just captured that moment? Damn, that's a good one, because you got to sit there and that's either the death of the ego or it's going to light up a new you, because you're going to be like ooh.
Speaker 2:I would say you know this is going to sound crass, but I have to say it that way you're with someone you don't want to be with physically. You said go deeper and go deeper. And you talk about the next day, the next morning, the second sex is over. You realize what you've done. Immediately, you immediately don't want to be there. You're immediately talking about get off me. I miss my wife.
Speaker 1:But now, what if you did, though? What if? What if you? What if you got done right? And this is the light side of it. Now, what if you enjoyed it? What if you want to stay for some little cuddles afterwards and you wanted to go get breakfast in the morning and you wanted to stay in? Because now you're seeing the light that got brought to your darkness, because, gabe, he's the guy that leads our Bible study. He said this so good in our call last Sunday. He said secrecy is the oxygen for addiction, secrecy. So you have all these desires that you stuff in your closet, which die off like skeletons, but in reality they just come to life when every other light goes off and nobody's looking. Because I always say this your testimony comes from your test. When you're lonely, that's when you get tempted. That's when you get tempted. That's when we get tempted when we're lonely, because that's when we're starting to see all these other things and we're not seeing it for what it is.
Speaker 2:Because now, we have nobody holding us accountable. Now we're actually tested. A lot of men who cheat man. They're not even lonely, bro, I mean they can be, and not if they're cheating.
Speaker 1:They're just alone.
Speaker 2:Someone's there yeah, yeah, in a sense right. I mean we're talking about people who have, at least on the surface. I mean, you know, you don't know what's going on inside someone's home, but we're talking about someone who has what seems to be a good marriage. There's a great person at home. You know the fact that she's a wonderful woman. You can see that right. Let's say, I know the couple right. You can see this person is wonderful in every way. The person's a good mother, a good provider for the family.
Speaker 2:Take care it presents itself. They take advantage of it, totally detached from the reality of it and in their mind long gone, goodbye. It doesn't matter. It happened, it's in the past. It doesn't have any residual effect and I argue that it does right. It does have a residual impact on you. That energy that is exchanged is one thing. What you're bringing home to your wife is another, Because you know you're having sex with this person A lot of times it's going to be unprotected. Even if it is protected sex, you're still taking a chance. There's none of that. Shit is 100%. So you have all these different things. I guess what I'm getting at is you have these guys who are just like the excuse is the gauge that governs them, the. I can't help it, I'm a guy. It's just what guys do, you know, like? What do you say to that Like?
Speaker 3:I'm sorry. I think it goes back to what Justin said in a previous podcast where, you know, men are naturally divided into hunters and gatherers. Our instinct is to hunt and so for a lot of guys it's just the thrill of the chase and you catch and you release. Sometimes the hunter gets captured by the game and you can't release. You have to be cognizant as a man in order to stay monogamous of that hunter instinct, because it never goes away. Is it ever enough? When is it enough?
Speaker 2:I have. I mean, I never get into these debates with these women because I don't know them personally. You know, these are people that I'll see on social media, but they are. There's this belief that men overall cannot be faithful. They are cheaters and they just it's just what it is. You just have to deal with it. You know, oftentimes I want to kind of scream out and be like what are you guys doing? You're taking a subset of a group right, a tiny, tiny sliver of it, because this is what you are attracting.
Speaker 2:You know, cat Williams said it best one time you have to figure out what it is about you that attract these no good ass men. And they keep attracting the same men. They don't realize it's the same man, different face, but it's the same man you just keep bringing towards you. There's a reason that women who are in abusive relationships tend to end up in another abusive relationship. You come out of one, you end up into another, and another and another, until you fix something about yourself so you no longer attract that.
Speaker 2:So if you attract a man that cannot be faithful to you, that's just something that you're doing, again, not your fault, but you're attracting that type of person into your environment and then you go and generalize and say all men are cheaters, no man can be faithful and etc. Etc. So I want to push back and and and can you guys talk about that and about, like, the dudes that you know and the men in your circle and things like that, and the people who've had successful marriage, those successful relationships? You know how? You know how are they doing? Because they're not the exception. That is the rule.
Speaker 1:I believe the cheaters are the exception, that's that's super wrong, though, as far as them saying men are cheaters, because the difference, in my opinion, from a boy to a man, because there's no true indicator of when a boy becomes a man, at least like in this lifetime, there's just no, and you can't say 21, or I have one what?
Speaker 2:so? This is something that jim rohan said. Um, the transition to adulthood is when you accept and you take full responsibility for your life. Yeah, once you do that, then you become an adult.
Speaker 1:It's not an age that makes you an adult what makes you a man, and what I'm gonna say from listening to all this and just like analyzing character here, is like, what makes you a man is when it's bigger than you. That's what makes you a man, because a boy it's not bigger than him, it's just him and his lust and his desires and his goals and his but. A man is looking for the future, he's looking for the family, he's looking for faith. He's looking for faith. He's looking for all these things that are much bigger than just the self.
Speaker 2:So it's like anything else, right, it's like healing, it's like success. None of these things are a destination. They are a journey, journey, so monogamy itself.
Speaker 3:Based on what your guys are saying, this is something you continually practice on a daily basis, and you make decisions that align with that, so that you're not ever in a situation where and it's hard bro- that's what she said.
Speaker 4:It's hard. Yeah, I've never been an alcoholic, but you got to treat it like a recovering alcoholic. Yes, because the thing is you never recovered. Once you get comfortable, you get that next drink. You undo 20 years of sobriety, correct. And I have a question for you guys on the panel, because we use that a lot as men, do you think sex is a need Shit? Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I do, and the reason why, in his wisdom he probably has this probably a trick-ass question. So be careful.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, it's just but it's not a trick question. You answer and I'll answer yeah, I, I think it is a need, because it is an instinct that you don't suppress, right? So that tells me it's a need, right? So even priests who vow celibacy sometimes break it and can't suppress it, right, they might try to mask it by messing with a little boy, but you still had sex, god damn, you weren't there. Well, what I'm saying? So this is why I went there, steph, you know me, I'm going to keep it 100. Yeah, they mask it because it is a boy or a male, that they don't consider it the same as breaking their vow to God because it wasn't with a woman.
Speaker 2:So you know, that's why I think sometimes religion is so obtuse, because you're tricking God, you're tricking yourself, you're tricking God.
Speaker 3:It's not your mindset, you're tricking yourself. You're 100% tricking God no that's what I'm saying You're thinking you're tricking god. So am I lying? Am I lying?
Speaker 1:that's out of human concern where he was rooted. Yeah, yeah they.
Speaker 3:They will say that that they did, that they have sinned, but they didn't break their vow because it was not what they wanted. Yeah, great job, right on the technicality.
Speaker 2:So so, to answer your question, it is a basic instinct, I think if you're approaching it from a deeper context, what is it really for? You can say it's to procreate, but I would have to disagree with that too. I don't think it's just for that sole purpose.
Speaker 4:No, no, I'm asking Okay, you're not saying it is.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it is, so for me it's a way that we connect in the most intimate way with another human being that we deeply, deeply care about, that we love. Now we waste a lot of our spiritual energy with the people we don't care about when we just go and sleep around and mess with other people, but there's a reason, it doesn't feel bad, right, if it was just like hey, this is a chore, you are to have children, this is when you do it, this is how it's done, et cetera, et cetera. But our society and previous societies have been collapsing from day one because of sex. So for men, we are governed by it. I think that I don't think there's no bones about it, man, I think that it is an absolute need for us, it's a need and it's a basic instinct.
Speaker 2:Biologically, I think it's a need for us. Yeah, and sperm counts is out of control.
Speaker 4:So I think that I'm sorry. I'm going to let you answer as well. Sorry, before I.
Speaker 1:I think it's a need, but the timing and the frequency is a want.
Speaker 4:I think that's where I'm at. Yeah, I think that's where I'm at If we think of it as a need although it is and then that's why a lot of guys say, well, we have need, you're not giving it to me, I'm going to get somewhere else. If it's just a want, all of a sudden it's not that important anymore, and I think that's part of doing the work on yourself.
Speaker 3:So, I mean as early as 10, 11, 12, 13, young men get erections. Oh for sure, right, they also. I mean hell. Even as an adult, you may have an erotic or wet dream where you ain't even having intercourse. But because you're thinking about it, right, because you're thinking about it, it is a natural instinct and release Right In your sleep. A natural instinct and release right in in your sleep. So that's why I say I go. It goes back to me as a fundamental need, because it's it's, it's an urge and it's an instinct that, even when you try to suppress it or when you haven't quote unquote brought it into your mind as an existence, it still comes and it still happens as a natural release. Yeah, you don't have to even think about it, I'm not.
Speaker 4:I'm not disagreeing at all. It's about you it correct. It pops up in your mind there are things I don't disagree, you know it's. The thing I just wanted to point out is something we could work on there to kind of help you out.
Speaker 2:It's growing through the discomfort to say how often is this gonna happen? I know couples right now who schedule it and at first I used to laugh at them. I used to be like they go, you're doing, what are you? You schedule sex for friday, right and? And you know schedule for fridays and and mondays, or fridays and wednesdays, or just once a week or whatever it is. Initially my reaction was that's funny, so I wish I might go ahead and schedule some shit like that.
Speaker 3:It's, but it changes that you can speak to this too. It changes and evolves as they get older.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not. So that's not what I was going.
Speaker 3:I was just things of that nature. It changes yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I was going to the fact that what I appreciate about those couples and what they're doing is life gets in the way and next thing, you know, intimacy starts to suffer and now there's resentment and the conversations have been had. So A you have the conversation. Second, if you schedule it, if nothing else, it gives the person, let's say in this case the woman we're going to go with a typical example of the woman having a lower sex drive no-transcript you that thing to look forward to for. So it's not for every couple. I personally would prefer, you know, just to be spontaneous and not be like it's seven o'clock friday where are you?
Speaker 2:you know, but you know so, so, but, but I I realize that it works for for the couples and listening to you know um other people speak about it. There's podcasts that talk about marriage and successful marriages, where that's actually a common thing, more than you would believe it is, and these people are having amazing relationships. I believe, it Amazing relationships, amazing sex, amazing everything.
Speaker 1:When sex becomes scheduled, it becomes a chore. You take away the butterflies, you take away the nerves, you take away all the natural emotions that come with the spontaneous action. Imagine if God told you when you were going to die and he told you when you were going to get blessed. It takes away the fun because the joy is in the journey. The joy comes from those sporadic moments where you didn't plan it but you got it. And not just sex, everything right. I think if you try to make it something so systematic, you lose the fun of the process.
Speaker 2:So what usually happens in the beginning of the relationship, where things are exciting, sex is happening all the time, everything is loving, lustful at the same time, and it's great. And then, sometime into the relationship, when things settle, the man is still like what happened? To all the sex? What happened to all this stuff and it and things you know settled?
Speaker 2:in the woman was like damn, I was hoping you wouldn't be as horny all these years exactly that's why I married a man who's older, because I was hoping, you know, you'd be done with this shit, right, you know? But yeah, it's. It's interesting what do you say to your, to young men who are in relationships, to kind of guide them towards this path that you guys have been on forever and the path that you're currently on, justin, something practical that you can impart on those guys?
Speaker 3:What I tell young men is that one when you're young, you make a lot of decisions off of instinct and you marry for the wrong reasons a lot of times. As Justin said lust or looks instead of love. If you're going to get in a relationship, if you're going to get married young, you have to figure out what your deal breakers are. That will allow you to not make certain mistakes. And do your deal breakers change? Yeah, as you get older, end up in situations where you've learned from lessons. Then that bar will always move because you will always grow and change. Muhammad Ali is my favorite athlete, one of my favorite individuals in the world, and he has a saying that he said if you're the same person at 50 that you were at 20, then you wasted 30 years of your life. So that means you have the ability and you will evolve. So those things will change. Your goals will change. The person you are should change 100%.
Speaker 2:Good insight, brother. Final question for you guys what's the final words on women who have, who throw us all into this one big old mixing bowl and say, yeah, just you know, stick your hand in there, yank one out, it's gonna be a cheater. More than likely it's gonna be a cheater. All right, what is it you know? What is it that you're? My advice to them is this and I'll compare it.
Speaker 3:I'll compare it to race. Right? We, as black people or white people or whatever nationality there are, will say that there are bad people in every race, right? Or you know, I can speak from my perspective in a black race. I don't like white people because white people didn't do this, but there have been some of the best thing that have happened in my life through the help or prism of a white person, right?
Speaker 3:So where I'm going with that is is that when you throw everybody into a box, you usually throw away a lot of good people. Treat people individually. Treat the men that you encounter individually. Don't throw them all in the boxes, all as cheaters, as all, as this, as all of that, because that's the same as saying all white people are this, all black people are that, which is what, which we're in the situation we're in now.
Speaker 3:You know, racially in this country or politically in this country, you know where you get on. You get on an elevator, like you said in your other podcast, and because you got the stigma as a black man some ladies clutching a person you got probably more money in your pocket than she got in her purse or in the bank. That's what I would would say to that would be. My advice is that you take every man you encounter individually. You don't encounter them all or put in your mind that they're all cheaters. But when they show you those signs that they are who you thought they were, then that's when you separate makes sense well, my advice to them is to look up the common denominator.
Speaker 4:oh, you saying it's them could be? Could be because I think we spoke about that earlier. Yeah, because you attract same people all the time. Especially if you don't change your environment, mm, or you don't do the work on yourself. You don't know your triggers, you don't know anything. You just you're the same person, so you're going to keep attracting the same dude, just in a different shell let's say that's all I got. Look at the common denominator good one.
Speaker 2:You got anything for us, jay?
Speaker 1:I got two things to the or for the women that are, um, obviously generalizing everybody. Typically, you are what you attract, so there should be a lot of self-reflection. If that's the case and you're only attracting bad people, chances are you're probably a bad person or you like bad things. To the men. My advice is invest in cat and dog food, cause there's going to be a lot of lonely women that always think that way. What?
Speaker 2:What I miss. Is it because I'm tired? Oh yeah, he must be investing cat?
Speaker 3:No, he didn't say he wasn't. He thought he was doing a JD Vans thing. That's not what he's doing.
Speaker 1:Invest in cat and dog food, because a lot of these women that think that way Are going to be single For the rest of their life.
Speaker 2:And have a lot of cats and a lot of dogs. My friend To the women.
Speaker 1:The stock is going to be up there. Yeah, and that's my advice To the men Invest in cat and dog food.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let the women Keep thinking that way, so you can make Some money off of their loans?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. There's Profit, isn't?
Speaker 2:the problem, baby, they're going to be alone for a very, very long time.
Speaker 4:Buy a cat, die alone.
Speaker 2:Yep, Buy a cat die alone, and I'm a prophet. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're probably my prophet. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, I want to thank you for being here. You know, leon Delva, justin, this was really really insightful. When I look at social media, I see that some type of gender war has started and really what it ends up doing is it ends up just destroying families. It ends up destroying our relationships with each other, and we're not at war. I don't know what the agenda is, I don't know who's behind it, I don't know why they're doing it that way, but everything's politicized.
Speaker 2:So one of the things that I saw that they were using as rocket fuel was men are cheaters and there are so many memes and all it takes is one jaded person to go ahead and take that that has a platform and just to propagate that stuff. A lot of the men I know are not like that. They're in happy and solid relationships. I wanted to just not only have the two of you guys who can talk to your very longstanding relationship that is a monogamous one myself and very happy with it and just being in that space, justin, whose principle is rock solid and your integrity is rock solid. So those men do exist. They're out there. They're not rare.
Speaker 2:As you said, delva, it's looking for the common denominator, look for what it is about you that is making you attract the person who cannot be faithful, the person who seems to, or puts you in a position to be disrespected or, in a lot of ways, threatens your life because they put you in situations where you don't even know who's out there hating you. So there's something about that man. There's something that you're doing also that is attracting that type of person. So focus on if you go back to the last podcast focus on doing the work on yourself, create your list, set your standards and work on those things. We'll catch you next time. Echoes of fine time, experts and friends, a powerful blend Tackling issues that never end. From our perspective, true or true, a podcast for all, but our point of view.
