Manhood Matters Podcast
Conversations around challenges dominating a man's journey through life. These topics are explored by real, everyday friends, with a lot of experience... And we have the occasional expert guest.
Manhood Matters Podcast
Black Women in Corporate America: Code-Switching Chronicles
Two accomplished Black women pull back the curtain on what it really means to navigate corporate America while carrying the DOUBLE burden of race and gender. This conversation explores the exhausting mental gymnastics required to succeed in spaces not designed for them.
Our guests share powerful stories about the necessity of code-switching – that daily performance where tone, expression, and even greeting style must be carefully calibrated to avoid triggering stereotypes. "I can't just show up and be me," one guest explains. "I have to outperform and do that dance just to be accepted." The mental toll becomes clear as they describe returning home completely drained from maintaining these performances all day.
Perhaps most revealing are the discussions about communication strategy. Black women must approach problem-solving differently than their white counterparts, sandwiching critiques between praise to avoid being labeled as "aggressive." Even more disturbing are the stories of credit theft, including another guest who was asked to write a recommendation letter for a white male colleague who received an award for her work.
The conversation takes a personal turn when discussing how these professional challenges affect relationships. Both guests explore the tension between independence developed through workplace battles and vulnerability needed in partnerships. "I had to let my guard down," one guest shares about her marriage. "If you love this man enough to say he's your husband, allow him to show up as your husband."
While acknowledging harsh realities about ongoing workplace bias, our guests offer valuable insights for young Black women entering professional spaces. Their wisdom serves as both warning and preparation for those following in their footsteps.
What emerges is a MASTERCLASS IN RESILIENCE, strategic thinking, and the unspoken tax Black women pay in pursuit of professional success. Listen now for a conversation that will change how you understand workplace dynamics forever.
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Host: StéphaneAlexandre
IG: @stephanealexandreofficial
Music by Liam Weisner
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He said I don't want the inventory manager because I didn't know enough. I couldn't do what you do. I still don't know enough, I'm still learning from you. They turned around and gave him an award for excellence. You shit me. No matter what I did, I wasn't looked at and told me to write the letter for his excellence. Wow.
Speaker 2:Sounds about right, exactly.
Speaker 1:Wow. So the spotlight could have been on me. Yeah, everyone around me knew it should have been on me, but because of who I am and the color of my skin, it was on him. So then I'm sitting in the next meeting telling him what needs to get done.
Speaker 2:What's going on everyone? Today's episode is one for the books. We're switching gears and shining the spotlight on two phenomenal women. Zola these two are stepping into the studio to break down what it's really like to navigate the shark infested waters of corporate America as black women, from boardrooms to backhanded compliments. They're pulling no punches and giving us the unfiltered truth with grace, style and just the right amount of fire. And oh, by the way, listen, we're also kicking off a brand new tradition today. It's called the celebrity outro challenge. So we flipped the coin before the show, before we hit record and the losers gotta close out the show with a bad celebrity impression. Stick around to find out who's getting roasted. Welcome to Manhood Matters. Let's get to it. So thank you for being here.
Speaker 1:Oh hey.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you guys so, so very much for doing this. This is going to be an interesting topic because it's one that we kind of touched on a few episodes ago. We talked about the black stereotypes, and one of them was black women are angry and loud. We talked about where that stereotype comes from, and then we touched on microaggressions at work what you guys have to face and deal with every day. So why don't we just go around introducing ourselves and then we'll just get right into the conversation?
Speaker 1:All right, I am Patrice Nash. I am the wife of Willie Nash and the mother of Marian Thomas. I mentioned those because those are my jobs every day and I also work as a sourcing well senior category manager.
Speaker 4:I know people don't know what that means I know right what is that.
Speaker 1:I basically look at contracts and do big deal negotiations for a fortune 10 company, wow yeah. And then I also own my own company called perfect perfections. I do events as well as interior design.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, and how long have you been at with your current career? How long have you been doing that?
Speaker 1:so with McKesson, I've been with them for 15 years for my company. I started as a real company. I established it in 2018. Got it.
Speaker 2:Willie, we know you are. It's not about you and me, brother, but I'm glad to have you here, man.
Speaker 4:Man, glad to be here. I'm glad to be back. You know it's been a while. Yes, sir, you know, feeling like I'm at home again, yeah, let feeling like. I'm at home again. Let's do it. I don't have to introduce myself.
Speaker 2:No, you don't. You know, everybody knows you're always late to this, but it's funny because I said this morning I went to get some coffee and donuts and I'm coming back and Willie's already here. I'm like she truly is the best part of you, because now you're 15 minutes early, because she's showing up.
Speaker 4:That's right, that's so funny.
Speaker 1:My showing up. That's right, that's so funny, my better half.
Speaker 3:I am stickler about time. There's a lot of stuff I don't play about. Time is what I am. I am Willie, willie is me.
Speaker 2:And for the first time, I have my lovely, beautiful wife on the pod. For the first time. She's been trying to get away from this. She's been running away every time I've asked her. There's always a reason, something's not happening.
Speaker 3:It's just not my thing.
Speaker 2:I know, and that's why there's no video today. I'm not even taking photos.
Speaker 1:And I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So, babe, introduce yourself.
Speaker 3:I'm Steph's wife. Of course my name is Zola I, Of course my name is Zola. I work in private equity. I've been doing with my current company for about seven years now. Very interesting, so we'll dig a little deeper into the conversation.
Speaker 2:For sure, Gotcha. And let me ask you both what level of schooling did you attain? I got my GED, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know, you got a high school diploma, we would not be the guests for a GED and some college you might not have graduated but you went.
Speaker 2:You went to college.
Speaker 1:You attempted it.
Speaker 4:I was there for the student loans. They're looking for me right now.
Speaker 1:I have a bachelor's degree from the Xavier University of Louisiana, hbcu proud.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Oh man, I have my MBA.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about the biggest challenges that you face, simply not because you have that job and that position, but either one of you can speak to this because you are a black woman in that space.
Speaker 3:Well, you know me, me. I've been working since I was like 15, right? None of my supervisors have ever been black, so I have been groomed to talk that talk, walk that walk and show up as what's expected, right? So it's not anything new. It's almost like code switching, like that's exactly what it's called. It's called code switching where it's like innate to me, it comes so natural. Where it's like in the parking lot, I'm like shit, yep.
Speaker 4:I got to put it on, even in the mornings.
Speaker 3:Like don't talk to me in the mornings, like I need time to mentally prepare because it's a draining experience, right, but again it's embedded in me. So if I come home and I'm like I'm tired, like it's not a physical thing, it's just I am mentally drained. So the expectation is I leave the house a certain way but I need to show up a certain way and I have to be mindful of how I show up. Like I can't just show up and not show all of my 32. I need hi. Good morning, how are you? Did you have a good night? Like you have to do that right.
Speaker 3:Very engaging. I can come in and just be like good morning and go to my office Right, I can't do that. But Amanda, she can walk in, not say a word and she's perfectly good. Oh, you know, amanda is just being Amanda, but Zola comes in walks to her office. Oh she's, she's so rude. Well, you know why is she being so rude this morning? Or she might be a little bit aggressive today. Don't go in there. She didn't come in and you know, like so it's, it's just a little.
Speaker 2:You ain't chucking and jiving that morning.
Speaker 3:Exactly, whereas I can't come in and just be me. I can't come in and just be like everybody else. I have to come in and outperform. I have to come in and do do that dance, just to be accepted in that space.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So what was the original question?
Speaker 2:You've answered it. Oh you know, for the most part. I mean there's a whole lot more to go into because you and I've had this conversation. I'll be on the phone with her. You know we're just talking through maybe the ride to work or whatever. And she gets into the office and I hear the most jovial, happy person because she's saying hi to everyone and smiling and I'm like the fuck happened.
Speaker 3:He go. You must've just walked in the office.
Speaker 2:And I realized this is what happens. Right, it's lights, camera action, it's an act and you have to turn it on because you can't afford not to Right. What about you, patrice? What are you running into?
Speaker 1:For me, currently it's a lot better because on the flip side, I now have a VP who's African-American woman. So she's already set that bar of bring your authentic self to work. So I have that defense because she's like over the entire department and I have a great relationship with her because she's helped me along in my career recently. But in hindsight, I talked to a lot of suppliers who are, you know, vps of companies. You know VPs of companies, directors of companies.
Speaker 1:They are majority Caucasian men who have basically told me that I don't know enough to tell them what they're going to do with their company, but I do know enough to tell you what I'm not going to do with ours. So I have to fight that battle. So I start off, you know, with the code switching Hi, how are you guys doing? But I'm learning that in that they think they could play in my face for the most part, um, and it's quickly turned around to the no, no, that's not what we're going to do. So when they get hit with that, no, no, they already no, no, no you have to check them yeah.
Speaker 1:You have to come in like, okay, let me tell you what we're not going to do. And then it's like, oh, okay, so it's not that I'm not trying to be the angry black woman, but I'm not going to be the little black girl that you want, putting me in a position to where that's my only go-to yes, and you can't lead that way.
Speaker 2:You can't show up that way, because then automatically you know what they already thought of you is. Well, there you go, she's proving it Right. So you show up with all the pleasantries and the professionalism and then you get tested.
Speaker 1:Yes. Now what I do know in my career on the corporate side is when they ask me my opinion, I don't start with the issue. I try to start with the positive and then bring it back with the issue, but in with the positive. And they say, that's easy, but you especially have to do it as a black woman, because if I leave with the issue.
Speaker 1:They already think I'm the problem, so I can't start with that part. I have to be like well, everything is great, you know, I don't see any issues with this, but this could be a concern for someone else in this way. And then it turns into you know what the issue is, but I can't start with y'all fucking up, you know, because then they hear me as oh, you the problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is it us or is it you?
Speaker 2:You mentioned something a little while ago that I know, that black women in general have struggled and dealt with. You have a black manager, right, your VP, the person you report to. She's a black woman. So I've had discussions One friend for example. She was saying that her manager's black. But I think what happened is this black woman has had to prove herself so much that she shows up that way all the time and she was miserable to work for. So do you find that, instead of having some type of alliance in not just this current position, but in any position you both have had to, where you've had to deal with another black woman, instead of an alliance, was there some kind of conflict? Because she was black and instead of looking out for you and being that mentor that she could be, it was the opposite?
Speaker 1:I've had issues with lower management positions, not higher. So when you're still at that point in your career where you're trying to prove yourself, I think black women can come off, as I can't let this other woman it's not even like saying, black woman, I can't let anybody in my department show me up so they might not necessarily have your back as much. In front of everyone they're quick to say, oh girl, you know, I already know what's going on, but when it comes to the time when it counts, they're still out for themselves. With my VP, she is more solidified in her career. She's older lady, she has done what she needs to do. We had a very candid conversation when I started. She was like I need your help with this department to start it. And I was like I'm sorry, but I don't trust people with my career. And she was like trust me this one time. If I fail, you point it out, but trust me this one time. And that was powerful 2020 and I've.
Speaker 1:For five years I've been trusting her and she has been showing up and showing out and I give her her flowers all the time because I don't think enough people reach back and say you know, I'll bring you with me on my journey yeah so for her to be able to do that with me. It's only right that I say you know what I appreciate you for everything you've done, because I've worked with a white woman and me and that help her.
Speaker 4:I remember her.
Speaker 2:You had to hear about it a lot. She stayed two doors down from us.
Speaker 1:So, I'd be willing to set her damn house on fire.
Speaker 2:She's this day, right now.
Speaker 4:No, she don't stay in the house. She didn't move. Y'all made a move.
Speaker 1:We didn't necessarily make a move.
Speaker 3:But her working.
Speaker 1:I'll get into that, we'll revisit that. But I didn't work with that woman. Baby, let me tell you I almost lost myself. That's when I couldn't code switch no more. I had to go off on her in her office. I'm like I don't like you, you don't like me, I don't trust you, you don't trust me. But I'm going to tell you what you're not going to do. You're not going to play with my livelihood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got through that.
Speaker 1:We did.
Speaker 4:We have evolved, but this new VP, she really likes me, she does, she really loves Willie. That's what matters. That's what matters, she likes me.
Speaker 1:She really loves. She's like how is Willie, that is my friend, I'm like that is not your friend.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 1:I'm just playing. She's a really, really genuine person, god-fearing, and she's God-fearing to the point where she don't have to say I'm God-fearing. You just see it right like you, you know those people, they right, they got something on their life yeah that's her that's the only you know.
Speaker 2:We're not gonna get into religion, but that's the only type of people that, when you talk about God that I respect. You live it and I can see it through you. You don't have to keep saying it. Yes, I can see it through you. You don't have to keep saying it. Yes, I can see it based on your actions. Exactly. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:So I guess, like I said, I've never had a black supervisor in any capacity, not a team leader, not a known in management, it's not necessarily more so someone of the same race keeping me down, but in every company I've always been the token black right, yeah, um, the current company. Right now, when I came in, there's a black guy there, but girl, he don't count, if you know what I'm saying yeah, okay, yeah he's, he's, he's them, yeah, I mean down to the wife, the, the expectation, right, see, all we had to do was see each other.
Speaker 1:You saw how she gave me a look and I get out. Yeah, I don't even know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I understand that she stole me.
Speaker 3:I guess you know I came in and I, you know, did my 90 days and they were like great, they're acceptable. You know what I mean. They can perform, they can do, and they brought in you know a black receptionist and then you know a black accountant and you know, but it kind of hard, pause, you open the diversity.
Speaker 3:Exactly, it was like you know, kind of for them Like oh OK, it's up there with. They speak so well you know, they speak so well you know. But then when those women came in and the way they came in, I'm like y'all ain't going to fuck this up for me. Yeah, right, because again I've worked very hard to be the code switcher, that I am Right Like y'all ain't just going to come up in here and fuck my shit up, right. So we have to to we're a reflection of each other.
Speaker 3:Yes, so in that sense, respectfully, I've had the conversation with them like listen, this is a first for this company. This company has been around forever and of the 300 people, we're the only three right now. I was a test run. I said it to them just like that. I'm a test run and with that test run I performed. So here you two go right. So there's a way you need to look, there's a way you need to speak, there's things that you need to leave at the door and when you come in, you have to be this way. You have to. This is how they're looking at you and what they're expecting. So it's like I had to give them the code switch in working in corporate America 101. And they weren't necessarily resistant to it. They were actually very appreciative for the feedback because that allowed them to, and I noticed the changes like, immediately after that conversation, the way they dress. You know there was no just because we're black women in the office, there's no sister girl talk right.
Speaker 3:We save that for when we bump into each other in the bathroom or in the kitchen. You know like that, that one-on-one thing. But when, when? Even when the eyes aren't watching, the eyes are watching right, and we have to be held to a certain standard and kept at a certain standard in order to be in the environment that we're in. There's not a lot of black women, there's not a lot of minorities, period, not a lot of even white. There are not a lot of white women in the sector that I'm in. So, now that we are here, regardless of our position the janitor, the receptionist, it doesn't matter we still have to come in and perform at a certain and it's unfortunate, it's very, very unfortunate that we have to be this way, but if we want to get that money, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2:Is it in coaching them and showing them how to be, how to code switch and all of that? Is there an argument for someone saying yeah, but you're not? You're teaching people how to code switch and all of that? Is there an argument for someone saying yeah, but you're not? You're teaching people how, not how to not be authentic um could not give a fuck about your authentic self.
Speaker 1:You better not show up as your authentic self I always tell people be your authentic self when it's authentic okay, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:and?
Speaker 1:I mean when you're in a meeting with somebody. That's a duty.
Speaker 3:That's a job.
Speaker 1:That's something like your duties assigned. So why are you trying to be authentic? When I'm having a conversation, like she said, that sidebar conversation, be yourself, be who you want to be. But when you are representing the company, you're not authentically the company. When you leave that nine to five, you don't authentically the company. When you leave that nine to five, you don't live their life, you don't live that brand, you're not all that stuff. So you absorb what you need to absorb then and when you're saying code switch, it's not a bad thing. You can't expect I can't expect to make a deal for 30 million dollars for our company and be like, um, you know what I'm saying, we ain't gonna be doing it, you know? Yeah, I don't need to focus.
Speaker 3:That's not how I speak on a day-to-day, though like when I say code switching no but like no, no, but when I show up and I'm speaking with someone, this is pretty much how I sound, because I didn't grow up in the hood, like you know, I didn't have that experience. But I can keep it real and have that girl to girl girlfriend conversation with my peers, right, when I'm comfortable, but when I'm comfortable, yeah, comfortable, but when I'm comfortable, yeah. So code switching for me is in these spaces, in these corporate spaces, like you always have to be on. Because here's the thing, corporate America is a game and no one is ever your friend, ever, right, so I have to be in my comfort zone. Like you know, the one and two people that I'm in my comfort zone with at work, but for the most part, all my other counterparts, however friendly they may be, they will never see that other side of me. They will never see that, that I'm kicking it, that you know, oh, let's hang out Like. They will never see that, because it's a game, everybody is just trying to excel and make it to the top.
Speaker 3:And the fact that I am there in their space girl, I'd be walking in the kitchen just to get a yogurt from the fridge and these folks look terrified and I have to be. I have to disarm them like hey, good morning, you know, I'm just here to grab a yogurt. Like they have never been in environments, especially one-on-one situations you can's clear as day right for a dark-skinned sister to walk into the kitchen. I tell you it is exhausting. So when I come home and I tell steph that I am drained and I don't have the bandwidth, I have to do a lot of tap dancing to collect this check. It's not easy. It's not easy at all. And unfortunately they do say show up as your authentic self.
Speaker 1:but that is bullshit that does not apply to me. They say it, they live it, like our company tells you. You know, we even have the dei programs. You know because I am in the black excellence you kept it alive I'm always gonna be black every day.
Speaker 1:I tell them every day you me, you're going to see me black at first, but I have made it so uncomfortable for others because I'm too old, I've been with the company too long. I've got to that point where I'm like, if you let me go, hopefully it's with severance. So if I calculate the amount of weeks that you're going to pay me, I don't do nothing to lose the job.
Speaker 1:But you know if you're looking at the people and you want to cut some head count, okay, I got these years in. I'm good, but I get it Like I've had to do both. I've had to live where, when I came in, I had to tap dance on everything. I couldn't be the aggressive black woman, even though I was in operations that you had to be assertive.
Speaker 2:It's not even that you were going to be the aggressive black woman. You just couldn't express anything because if you did, it was going to be misconstrued as being aggressive.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I could express it, but they couldn't hear me because, like I said, I brought the problem first and then I'll be like, okay, no, no, your problem is this. Let me give you a solution. They didn't hear the solution, all they heard was the problem.
Speaker 1:You have to speak their language in order for them to understand so it was like I and I could have two white guys that reported to me, one that was like my homeboy, but he's still white like we. And I say homeboy because to this day men, all of us are still cool like they've advanced in their career. They're playing the game like they need to play. They've advanced higher than me and I'm okay with that because we know they are white men that fit that corporate they don't have to do much.
Speaker 1:They don't have to do much right now don't get me wrong, they are very smart in everything that they do.
Speaker 2:They're still qualified, but there's nothing going against them.
Speaker 1:But their struggles are not the same struggles, correct, so we could be sitting there. I've told them before the meeting what I'm going to present. They're like, yep, that's right, I agree, we need to do that. I go to the meeting, I get looked at as the issue. Then they sit back, wait two minutes and say, well, I'm a circle back and I think we need to do that what Patrice said. They'll even say my name and we need to do X, y and Z. You know what you were right you are. I think that's what we're going to do. That's fucking insane. Well, what the hell? We've been mean for an extra 30 minutes and I told y'all that when I first came in.
Speaker 2:I know I say that to you all the time. It sounds like a skip, Like it's like I'm watching some kind of reality and you're like someone made that shit up.
Speaker 1:There's no way. I would put it like this there was recently a black woman in history who told us all the shit we was finna face. She was qualified, had every degree, had went through every level of politics, fought her way to the top. She told everybody here's the blueprint that these white folks wrote for y'all. And this is what's going to happen. I'm telling you, I will fight for you. And where is she? Oh, crickets, yeah. So that's what I'm saying. If the woman at this level, with all these accolades, can go through all of this and nobody showed up for her. That's why we say we're not. And she light-skinned.
Speaker 3:She light-skinned black. She light-skinned black.
Speaker 1:She was the one she was acceptable in all circles of what we could even potentially be in. Yeah, white husband didn't have a child so she could fight with her career, so she didn't have to balance home life versus work life. Then she got all the degrees. I mean, you know, she could talk the talk. She don't win and fall in other countries for our rights and they accept her in other countries more than we accept her. And the only people that showed up for her was black women, a few black men, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 3:I understand that and I exactly, but we're not going to get into politics. But I told Steph the reason she did not win was because for the four years she was in office she never showed up. She didn't start no lunch initiative. She didn't go out there and plant no trees.
Speaker 1:She did not but that's what y'all want her for Obama, for Michelle.
Speaker 3:But, michelle, if you take what you can't, I don't mean to say I don't mean to override you, but you cannot say you're going to run for the highest position in the United States. Meanwhile you were silent the past four years. That's like being mediocre for four years and me showing up to my boss talking about something I want to raise.
Speaker 1:But let me ask you this Was she silent or did the media not portray her? Because when you go back to it, I think it's not. I don't think she was necessarily silent.
Speaker 1:I really don't, because when we look at the HBCU bills, that was her. When we look at the student loans, who fought with Biden to make sure that was her. But they put Biden's name on it like they have done every vice president before. But they put Biden's name on it like they have done every vice president before. If you look at any previous vice president, they wasn't in there showing all the things that they did.
Speaker 3:But they didn't have to fight like her. But attention spans are short, right. So coming off Biden was Obama and Biden coming.
Speaker 1:But what did Biden do? Hold on.
Speaker 3:But you never saw Obama without seeing Biden somewhere in the back looking in a corner. So his presence was always at the forefront in some way shape or form. Now I don't know if it's because you know she was a black woman or what the deal was, why she was never. You know, whenever you saw Biden, you saw Kamala somewhere in the back. You know she was just never there, somewhere in the back. You know she was just never there. I don't know if her absence was intentional, but she was just never present in the way that she should have been.
Speaker 1:And my question would be was it because, or initially, she wasn't running? It was always going to be biting, but we kept calling him sleepy joe. Which hell, I take sleepy joe, go to sleep. But if we, and it's like she couldn't outshadow the white man, but then she can't be in the background without saying, look at me, look at me, I'm here. So that's the battle I fight.
Speaker 3:and that means she was just complicit to her position, right? She never took the initiative to inject herself, and when she tried to inject herself, it's almost like it's too late Again. You can't be mediocre.
Speaker 1:Showing up. Did she try to inject herself, or did the press then start focusing on her?
Speaker 3:But it's not a matter of the press. There are other social media platforms where you can be active. I can get that, so you don't have to necessarily need mainstream media to be active, especially as it pertains to the black community. Right, you got the clout where shade room will post you. Right, you got the clout where hollywood unlocked they will post you. That means so many social media sites that target black people, and she even her own page again. If you want to keep your people like, you have to interact with them in some way, shape or form, and when you're silent on your people and not speaking up when you want us to show up, you're not necessarily going to get the the the correct response.
Speaker 1:I get what you're saying. I I debate it. But I know we said no politics, but I debate it.
Speaker 3:We'll argue later, yes, open some wine.
Speaker 1:Because I guess because she was such a pivotal part of the HBCU community, I followed her more so I paid attention to what she did with the black doctors, the OBGYN, the mortality, all these things before it became part of her campaign, all these things before it became part of her campaign. But I also recognize, and even in my career, that example I was given. I could sit there and do everything perfect. I'll use the example of real life. What pissed me off and why? I related to what was happening to her when I got the job at my DC and that's what brought us to Atlanta. The DC was underperforming. It was having issues with employees, union conversations, issues. They brought me on to turn it around in inventory. They were like we're losing millions of dollars in inventory. We we ran a very marginal like loss that you could had to be like 0.003 percent of loss because we're thinking about drugs here. Okay drugs.
Speaker 1:She's a drug dealer I was a drug dealer at that time, so I come from memphis to atl DC hard to turn around. Within two months we done turned it around. We have everything accountable. We got everything going. We're fixing things. We could see everything happening.
Speaker 2:That's an extremely quick turnaround. Right Two months.
Speaker 1:It was just some processes and that wasn't in place. Just knowing the process that we ran in Memphis that I learned bring them here, execute them, tailor it to what is needed here, keep it going OK. Again, my white counterpart who was the assistant inventory manager. He said I don't want the inventory manager because I didn't know enough. I couldn't do what you do. I still don't know enough. I'm still learning from you. They turned around and gave him an award for excellence. You should me. No matter what I did, I wasn't looked at and told me to write the letter for his excellence.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Exactly so. The spotlight could have been on me. Everyone around me knew it should have been on me, but because of who I am and the color of my skin, it was on him. So then I'm sitting in the next meeting telling him what needs to get done and this white woman saying no, no, I don't want to listen to her because I can't tell from her facial expressions if she's serious or not. What the fuck you mean? If I said it, I was serious. If I emailed you, I was serious If I told you in our one-on-ones, I was serious just because I didn't. Hey, you know what I'm saying. We need to do this now.
Speaker 1:Then I'll be the angry black woman. I'm trying to do it with a smile to try to keep the morale here, but this person, who got even a chippier smile than me, tells y'all the same thing. Well, I can listen to him. He knows you're going to give him the accolades again. So, no matter what she did, she wasn't going to get it because of the color of her skin. So it's debatable. Yeah, she could have been out there Look at me, look at me. But then she would have been the black woman that feels like she got to upstage the president. So where do you find that balance For me? I had to find a balance and move away from that department because I found that that wasn't conducive to what I needed in my life. It was causing me to come home to him and not be able to give my all, when somebody can sit there and tell me you need to tell your husband to walk your kids to the bus stop because I expect you to be here longer.
Speaker 4:And I ain't walking no kids to the bus stop, Exactly Like man. What are you talking about, Willie? I ain't walking no kids to the bus stop and I had to tell her.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I know your husband's a stay at home husband, but mine has a job. He's the head of our household. You're the head of your household. No, no, ma'am, I will walk my kids to the bus and try to fire me. And again, I'm with the company and she's not because I had to stand my ground and tell her no. But you know all the things that I had to go through to even get told you were right. I had to document, I had to have conversations with every single person. Tell them I need you to go to this person and have a conversation to combat what this one person said, why I was damn near on my deathbed because she wanted to lie and say I didn't know. And everybody believed her.
Speaker 2:I didn't know yeah, yeah, yeah, the shit you guys go through receipts I keep a receipt I keep a receipt.
Speaker 3:I do not communicate over the phone, I do not communicate face to face in office and if I do, I always send an email following up with our discussion and I reiterate every single thing that was discussed, because you can never say, oh no, and I will find my receipts. That's just. That's just how it is. I keep telling people corporate America is a game, like it's a game, and you have to know how to play it. Like she was saying, I've experienced that too, where you say something but they don't hear you. Right, and it took me a few tries, or a few instances instances is a better word it took me a few instances to realize what it is. And you're absolutely correct. Being a black woman, you cannot start. It could be a meeting regarding a problem about the problem how are we going to fix the problem? It could be a meeting regarding a problem about the problem how we're going to fix the problem pertaining to the problem, right? Because there's six meetings for that. I don't know why.
Speaker 1:I know right.
Speaker 3:But you can if it's a meeting about the problem. As a black woman, you can't start off with attacking the problem. Your white counterparts can. They can even say the problem is this, right? We can't say the problem is this, you have to ease into it, right, you have to pacify the mess. You have to pacify them and then gently ease into what the issue is and how, what your solution is for it. But you can't go into any meeting, especially as a black woman, directly addressing the problem.
Speaker 3:You have to let everyone know what the company has been doing great so far, which is bullshit, because if you were doing great so far, we wouldn't have this problem. Yep, but you have to go into what we've been doing great so far as a team and you have to highlight your supervisors or your direct managers. You know their contributions, you know and then ease into well, you know we've stumbled into this obstacle.
Speaker 3:We've stumbled into this obstacle where you know this is what's happening and how do we rectify that, and then you can't even necessarily take credit for it to say I think you have to say, well, as a team, we should, we should, or as a team, we've reviewed and concluded that this might be the best solution. You can't say I, zola, as in black, zola, you, you know, I can deliver, I can present, but I can't take credit, for it has to be as a team, and if my supervisor or my superior is really legit and about that shit, he'll be like no, this was Zola's idea and give me the credit where credit is due. But I dare not stand in front of a room and take credit and say I did, or I think that's not acceptable.
Speaker 1:You know how many emails.
Speaker 3:I have with. We Is this 2025?
Speaker 4:This is 2025. You know how many emails I have is this?
Speaker 1:2025. This is 2025. You know how many emails I start off with we and I am an individual contributor like who the fuck is we?
Speaker 3:who is?
Speaker 4:willie like who is?
Speaker 1:this we. If he saw the emails where I said we have come to the conclusion and he'll be like who the fuck is we? I literally have to go call my boss and be like hey, so I'm gonna put we on here, but I just want you to know what I'm gonna tell these folks. He'll be like hey, so I'm going to put we on here, but I just want you to know what I'm going to tell these folks. He'll be like go with it. Okay, we good. I just don't want nobody to say you don't want no surprises. So I'm letting you know how I'm coming at them, because I luckily don't code switch with my boss as much. I still don't get all the way like I am at home.
Speaker 3:Because, unlike Zola, I'm not polished at all, but again, I don't have anyone there that necessarily looks like me in a higher position that's I can't. I don't have anyone, that looks like me, that's even my equal to protect you from that exactly. So I have to be this way all day, every day, yeah yeah, I get it.
Speaker 4:I think you need to have her bath water ready when she come home rubbingbing her shoulders Like baby.
Speaker 1:What's wrong?
Speaker 2:We talk all the time. We talk about this. I talk to her While she's at work. We have a lot of conversations Throughout the day and it's amazing Because I'm listening to this and I'm going Damn, I'm still discovering so much and just listening to you both and seeing so many parallels. You know, maybe there's more we can do, but like overall, like the black woman doesn't feel protected by the black man, yeah, so what's your experience been with that feeling that way, whether it's in life in general or at work?
Speaker 1:In life. I will say my husband has become more supportive of the things that I do. Does my husband still have a very male, chauvinistic view of life? Probably so, but it's okay, cause I can tell him like we're comfortable in our marriage. I could be like, uh, sexist maybe, and he'll be like, yep, I am.
Speaker 1:And I'll be like, okay, well, let's roll with it, like I know who I'm dealing with when it's dealing with him. We have clear roles defined in our house. In certain elements, he can do certain things that I probably would never, ever try to do because it would cause issues in the marriage. Nothing crazy, but they're defined roles. Do I feel protected? I was raised by very strong and opinionated black women. I'm a lot less than what they are and that's a lot. I didn't ever feel like I needed to be protected.
Speaker 2:Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Because my mom, my grandma, my auntie, they gonna say what they feel like and you go take it Like we are very Memphis women and if you know what that means, you know what that means I'm out of here.
Speaker 5:Crazy, I was there for 10 years.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like my grandma was from the country. She would be probably considered more like a cafe woman because she hung out, she partied, she did her thing, like she wasn't, like a loose woman, you know, but she was unapologetically who she was and you was going to either accept her or you wasn't. So I can't say I necessarily look for the protection of a man. So that might be where I can't say if I felt protected, because I feel like if you don't protect me, I protect myself. I have a defense mechanism already. It became an issue in our marriage at one point where and I'll go into that- yeah, because we had that conversation.
Speaker 1:But it became an issue in our marriage where he felt like I didn't need him because I was so strong, like I didn't need him because I was so strong. So that was where I had to let my guard down and be like, if you love this man enough to say he's your husband, allow him to show up as your husband, so give him the space to be the head of the house. But to this day and I love him dearly, to this day, and I love him dearly, but if something happened to him or crumbled, I wouldn't feel like who I am is completely gone as an existence of a woman.
Speaker 2:Totally, I get that.
Speaker 1:I feel I'm safe enough with myself.
Speaker 4:She's saying she don't need me.
Speaker 1:I need him.
Speaker 4:I'm sitting here.
Speaker 3:Like girl, you better rephrase that your life is in shambles. I would be hurt, I would be devastated, if my husband wasn't there.
Speaker 1:The only one I know that has my back 100% is me. He might got a 99. But that 1% is somebody shoot a gun.
Speaker 4:That 1% is a motherfucker. That 1% is a nigga about to leave me, he'll be like baby let go, protect yourself, boo, protect yourself.
Speaker 1:He might shoot back, but he gonna be like you better get going, baby duck. I'll give you one example, and then I'll be done, because I worked in operations at the DC If anybody ever lived in DC life, warehouse, life you got to come in there a little bit more, you know. So I had given them some information. This one guy decided he was going to come sit behind me and he was a black man, but he was talking aggressively over my back about me. So he like no, what we gonna do is and going ham on me and behind my back. And you know, in my thought process I was like OK, I could cuss him out, but I need this good, paying job, so I'm going to sit still.
Speaker 1:I think my manager at the time told him like, like you need to calm down, you know, let's talk about this and refocused in the meeting and came out the office and he was like Patrice, I'm sorry, I just got passionate. I said no, no, let me tell you something. You see me when I'm at work, but I'm going to tell you now, if I go home, there's someone bigger and stronger that will fuck you up. That was the one time I felt protected. I threw him out there Convene and threw me out there to get shot.
Speaker 1:I was like, but no, because honestly he's because what he did in hindsight. We had a corporate event and I told him I was like look my husband, don't play about me Like you can come and think you finna, wolf somebody else. But let me tell you, don't let the size fool you. Player, so player.
Speaker 3:So, and that's how I said it, like cause I told you I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. So I'm gonna work on me. So we had a Christmas party or something and Willie had to see the guy and he sat him down at the bar. He was like I don't care what's going on, don't talk to my wife like that. And the guy apologized, you know. He said I appreciate, I appreciate you, man. It was my bad, but I told him and my husband came and backed that up. Yeah, so I guess my babe protected me. Look at you, boo.
Speaker 4:Protecting your wife. Don't play, don't play, don't play about you. You got me, babe, okay.
Speaker 2:Baby, anybody yell at you. Let me back in Anything you need to tell me.
Speaker 5:Maybe anybody yell at you lately.
Speaker 3:Anything you need to tell me they're so funny.
Speaker 3:So black women being underprotected from a corporate experience it's absolutely true necessarily been black men in the environments that I've been in to necessarily say, okay, I know so-and-so has my back or I know so-and-so will reinforce what you know. Zola has said Like I've never had that and where I'm at now, again the first token he's all for himself. I could be set on fire and he'll. He wouldn't even look over to spit on me, you know. So from the corporate perspective, no, I'm not going to sit here and make it sound like you know I hate white people, or white people haven't helped me along the way, because they absolutely have, because if they didn't I wouldn't be in a position that I am now. The person that I learned everything from was a white woman, but biggest bitch ever like ever in life.
Speaker 3:She was just nasty, right, but because, again, I was a single mom at the time, like you ain't going, this ain't going to stop me from collecting my coins, because, again, you have to know your reason for showing up and no one can deter you from that. So while I was there working for her, I was working on my bachelor's degree and she was lazy, so she thought she was doing herself a favor. But that white woman taught me everything I know. She taught me how to do her job as a controller and me, being who I am, I'm not going to complain. I see you, I know what you're doing, you lazy, and you think you're dumping shit on me, but I'm learning how to do your job Right. So she indirectly taught me everything I know and once I mastered it, she was able to be promoted to CFO. I'm still in my same position Meanwhile. I'm still doing her job and I took it.
Speaker 3:I openly took it, I willingly took it, because I to her, she was just like, oh, she's just, you know, when she's talked about Zola, she's just so eager to learn, you know, she's just so eager to learn, you know. And she, yeah, zola got it. So that's her thing, like Zola can take care of that. Zola will take care of that because, again, indirectly, everything I know that woman taught me and I give her props for it. You know, for being lazy I give her all the props, but she taught me everything I knew.
Speaker 4:Lazy bitch. Thank you, bitch. She's dead now.
Speaker 1:Aw dang. That's the piece.
Speaker 3:Say it again she, my bad lady, Forgive me forgive me, but from that sense, like she protected me in my position, like in some cases I was able to be my authentic self because she couldn't do the job, yeah, right, I'm doing the job, so I can kind of be be able to get away with a little bit of whatever the fuck, because I was the face behind the face.
Speaker 3:But I've had other experiences in the outside world where I'm just like these bitch ass niggas. Right, I was just on a flight the other day and you know, you disembark the plane, you leave the plane in an orderly fashion, right, and there's little nigglet, a whole nigglet, a little one who raised you common curtis. It should be embedded like, when you're dealing with a woman, it's always ladies first, it's always black or white, it doesn't matter, women first. You protect women. Girl, I'm reaching up for my bag and he, because you know, as soon as the plane lands and the seatbelt, everybody just floods, no, and you still end up stuck in the same place because people are getting off by rows.
Speaker 3:And he had his hand up like blocking me in my face, and I had to push his hand away, right, and then he kind of, you know, gets out the way for a little bit, but then once the line starts to move, like he legit pushed me, got in front, like push me out.
Speaker 3:I'm like, I'm like atlanta got some bitch ass niggas and I said it out loud and he turned around and our eyes made four. Yes, I'm talking to you, but it's situations and instances like that in the outside world where you expect black men teenage all the way you know to be able to put black women right, especially black women. Show us some respect.
Speaker 4:Sounds like Zola, don't need you either.
Speaker 3:No, I need my man. Don't get it twisted, I need my man.
Speaker 1:Why you say either I didn't say I didn't need you.
Speaker 4:We go talk in the car.
Speaker 1:Don't do that. Don't put words in my mouth, and you better edit it out too.
Speaker 3:So it's like instances out there in the outside world where it's just like it's clear as day that we aren't being protected by black men, even when it comes to Black Lives Matter and all that. And you hear about the you know black men getting killed and then their tweets come out where they're like fuck a black woman. I wouldn't even fuck a black dog unless it was a white dog. Remember that last dude that got shot and everybody was like now we just gonna.
Speaker 3:The black women were just like now we gonna sit this one out right, yeah there are too many instances now where black women are just like. We're gonna sit this one out I'm in my fafo.
Speaker 1:Hello, hey y'all. What y'all doing out there?
Speaker 2:in them streets.
Speaker 3:Help me understand what that means yeah, it's funny, but I will say, for the past three years since I've met steph from childhood all the way up to adulthood, right, it wasn't until like three years ago that I realized what protection was and feeling like someone had your back, like I'm fully, 100% protected emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and it wasn't until I met Steph, I've always had to be 100 hundred percent independent, like fully independent, like run my own shit, independent, right.
Speaker 3:So? And we did have a little bit of um same thing being independent for so long where you finally meet a man and you don't necessarily know how to treat them because you've been independent for so long. You don't know how to be submissive Submissive to who? Submissive to what?
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And then it's the aggression that comes with it, and not aggression in an angry sense. It's the head of household, it's the. I'm the provider, it's the I take care of shit, like you know, making sure my kids never lack for anything Roof over their head. Like, just know, making sure my kids never lack for anything roof over their head. Like, just being that Everything that a man is supposed to be. I was the man.
Speaker 3:So when I met a man, I was still acting like I had that, figuratively speaking, like I had that dick right. So it was hard to really feminize myself because, again, personal, corporate, just all around. I was that person. I had a lot of masculinity in me. I still do. It's just that, that protection, that knowing that I'm good. Like before, I can be honest with you, I never slept at night, never slept at night. My sleep would be so erratic, right. I met this man and I can be honest with you, I never slept at night, never slept at night. My sleep would be so erratic, right. I met this man and I can sleep like, and he's like, baby, you was dead to the world. Like, how do you do it?
Speaker 3:that's good and I tell him all the time I never slept before. I have you, so I can sleep, I can be at peace. I can be at ease. I can be at ease and I've never, ever, ever had that in life like ever.
Speaker 1:That protection, that, that just knowing that I'm good I've never had that until I met Steph yeah, I just want to applaud that, even at this stage in life, you were able to recognize it and change it. Girl, I ain't trying to lose my man, exactly, but we're going to talk about that on another episode, because I think that's a problem. Women just be too strong and I'm one of them. But it's about approach.
Speaker 3:See, because I'm headstrong, I'm very stubborn, like I'm very black and white. There's never a gray area. I'm very. If you tell me this is what needs to be done, or, babe, I have this business idea, I'm the one researching and I'll be back to you in 48 business hours and letting you know, don't put that standard out there. No, that's just me.
Speaker 1:That's just me no no, this one will hear this and be like can you get it to me in 48 hours. 48 hours, that'll be our next thing around the house 47 will be even better. I told you he my Zola. I cannot deal with that.
Speaker 3:Okay now put that out there, so like that's just how I am right. Yeah, but when I met Steph, it wasn't even intentionally like I was trying. It was almost like he brought out the femininity in me. Like I said, I'm still very masculine in a certain sense I'm very much in my soft girl era. Before I was lifting shit girl, now I'm just like oh stuff, give me some.
Speaker 1:I can't do it like this is too heavy. It's too heavy you be carrying 22 grand she of bags at one time. Like oh, this is too tight.
Speaker 3:You know, and he just brings, he, you know, brings that out, naturally.
Speaker 3:It's not something that I try to do, it's not something that I can genuinely just be a woman and not have to worry about certain things. And when you know you have a good person that's standing behind you, it's one of those things where you just naturally want to conform Now, I'm not saying lose your identity, you know, in this person because at the end of the day it's still just you, right. But I love him enough to know that, ok, I need to fall back on certain things, but then on certain things I just nah, you ain't going to. No, yeah.
Speaker 1:I get it and I will say two things here One thing about her and what I said when we introduced ourselves.
Speaker 3:We said wives first, because that's still our primary job, so no matter what happens out in the corporate, world we still have to show up and work, because that's the role that matters the most, right, like yeah, I'm his wife, you know his wife, then mother, and then I work for them folks. But it's just, that's the role that's the most important, the most fundamental, the most like beneficial. That's the role that matters to me. Say mother first, but no, fuck them kids. I did FDK girl.
Speaker 1:You know what, zoma? I'm starting to see you, girl, I'm coming to see you. I FDK all the time here.
Speaker 2:No, I you know I'm emotional, so I'm trying to keep it together here. But I love you, I appreciate you. I love you too, baby.
Speaker 4:Aww, look at him.
Speaker 1:Look at him.
Speaker 4:I love you too, baby.
Speaker 1:No, baby, I love you, do it All right.
Speaker 2:So, so magic wand, what's the one thing if you could change? You got this magic wand and you could change one thing. You know that you're having to overcome daily, and not just for yourself, but for other young ladies who are currently in school learning, who are going to be facing. You know our daughter's in college right now. She's she's at Howard, so God knows. She's going to have an uphill battle, especially in today's climate. If you could change one thing, what would it be?
Speaker 1:That HBCU is going to help her, just because it's a different experience.
Speaker 1:If you never went to one. I promote those. But one thing that I will say, if I could change in the world for my daughter, that she would not have to battle, or any of the black ladies or young ladies that are going through is to not be seen by color first. Yeah, because we already have to fight being a woman, but to be seen as a black woman, you already got a double-head sword. I know they say that men have it hard, black men have it hard y' men have it hard.
Speaker 2:Y'all got it harder, I know that. Yeah, I know for a fact.
Speaker 1:It's hard.
Speaker 2:I could sit with one of the boys and go out with them and whatever.
Speaker 1:Right, you have it hard. Black men don't get it wrong, they have it hard navigating society outside All the bullshit, right.
Speaker 1:We have it hard when we open our eyes. So, from the time we open our eyes, the time we speak our first word, the way we move our body, the way we comb our hair, the way we put our clothes on, any and everything before we even step out the door, is one thing we have. Is our hair in a ponytail or do it need to be flowing down our back? Is it too short? Is it too kinky? Is it the right color? Is our makeup overly dramatic or is it undertone? If our lashes are too long, if it's not? You know all those, every expression of who we are. Some people appreciate, some people don't. It's getting critiqued. I don't want that for my child.
Speaker 3:Well, again, it's like that perfect utopia right Black and white. There is no gray area. Reality is what it is. The racial aggression, what's in the system now is only going to be magnified. It's not going away.
Speaker 3:I actually see it getting worse for generations to come. And because this generation is kind of low key, complicit, like I see a lot of the things that people fought for in the past. I see a lot of those things coming back and we're seeing it now. A lot of these things are coming back. You know laws being revoked. It's playing out right in front of our faces. So this generation is a little bit more complicit with then. You know more and you hear them. You know talking about oh we're not our ancestors, and blah, blah. Yeah, you're right, you're not your ancestors, right? I'm not saying we have to be out there in the streets protesting or whatever, because they are trying to evoke that negative emotion from us in order to do something more extreme. I understand that, but I don't with the racial climate. I don't see things getting better.
Speaker 3:So my contribution would be to, especially for Black, young Black girls, would be to arm them with as much knowledge that I've learned along the way along the journey as to what they can expect. It's almost like grooming them to survive in corporate America. Expect. It's almost like grooming them to survive in corporate America. Like, yes, we shouldn't have to do it, but the reality is that we do have to do it and unfortunately you know a lot of the scholars that are excelling now they don't necessarily come from women who have been groomed or have that, have had that exposure. So it should be taught at an HBCU Code switching 101, right, surviving corporate America 101.
Speaker 3:Like these are skills that need to be taught. Like it really does, like it sounds, oh, it's not necessary. No, it is very much necessary. Like this, especially at an HBCU, that needs to be taught. Allison's at an advantage by growing up with me, she sees I don't sugarcoat anything from my daughter or hide anything from my daughter, so she knows she can code switch on you real quick. You know she's had practice and the environments that she's been in like have been a lot of you know, predominantly white environments, but so she understands the importance of it. But that would be my contribution is just equipping black women, or young black women, with the knowledge on how to survive, how to navigate the world.
Speaker 2:I'll encourage a lot of men who have their wives in those environments to understand, because I think that innately for us as men, you know, especially when we got hard jobs, we go out and we do something right. We just we go work, and because we face not the same things but we face our own set of challenges. So when we go out, shit was hard, we did this, we did that. We come home and we expect you to be our comfort and be our peace and everything else, not thinking twice about what you're needing and what you had to put up with and the masks that you had to wear all day long and how exhausting that is, especially if the man has a physical job. The mental exhaustion is a lot worse than physical exhaustion. So I encourage them to kind of think back and have more of these conversations to figure out how they can support their women better, because it's something that I have to be reminded of every once in a while. I'm glad we had this conversation so I could be more cognizant of it.
Speaker 2:I like it Earlier today. I lost the goddamn coin.
Speaker 4:toss yeah yeah, yeah, you did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you did. So what that means is that I get to do the outro and you guys have to decide who I'm supposed to be impersonating Morgan Freeman.
Speaker 3:Morgan. Yeah, we can do, morgan, it's going to suck. All right, you just got to go deep. Go deep, morgan is very deep. He's very deep In the beginning. Yeah, you got to go deep.
Speaker 5:In the beginning.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 5:If you're not already following the show, I encourage you to hit that follow button. What are you doing? Go deeper, deeper, all right, then leave us a review, a glorious five-star review. It really helps us grow. Join us next week when the conversation takes an ominous turn as we recount two stories from our co-host facing death then getting a second chance at life. Thank you so much for tuning in and have a great week.
Speaker 4:That's funny. That was good. That was more like his brother Morris.
Speaker 5:That was Morris.
Speaker 4:That was Morris you.
